so much for staying up late. see you this weekend! weekend >> thank you at-home for joining us this hour, we are going to start this friday evening with a little trivia. i read a quote and you guess who said it. president donald trump is a, quote, demonic force, a destroyer. but he is not going to destroy us.

i will give you a hint here. it is not a quote from a pastor. it is from fox news host tucker carlson. last night, the dominion voting machine company filed a public version of their brief in their defamation lawsuit against fox news. and that breathe included dozens of incredible behind the scenes quotes about how fox news head honchos really actually feel. and in a lot of ways the story that dominion lays out is the story of the fear of tucker carlson and his colleagues. dominion alleges that fox news changed its coverage of dominion voting machines and the 2020 election out of fear that, if fox did not stay loyal to donald trump and his followers, the network would lose its audience and, with it, a whole lot of money. on november 7th, fox's decision desk all the 2020 election for joe biden. dominion revealed a text sent from tucker carlson to one of his producers that day, after fox called the election. and it said, to the executives understand how much credibility and trust we have lost with our

audience? we are playing with fire, for real. and an alternative, like the ultraconservative channel newsmax, could be devastating to us. three days later, the president of fox news, a man named jay wallace, texted fox news ceo susan scott. the newsmax surge is a bit troubling. it truly is an alternate universe when you watch. but it can't be ignored. fox news ceo replied, yes, to which fox news president responded, trying to get everyone to comprehend we are on a war footing. on november 12th, 2020, fox news host sean hannity and his guests went big on the idea that something was amiss with the 2020 election. >> it is now nine days after election day. and today, more reports of dead people voting from beyond the grave -- an amazing system we have set up. several days ago, dominion came under heavy fire after allegations that their machines caused thousands of votes in one michigan county to be

switched from donald trump to joe biden. >> here is one thing i know, sean. those dominion software systems? they changed more votes than vladimir putin ever did. >> that night, president trump tweeted that fox news host sean hannity show is a must-see because of his takedown of the horrible, inaccurate and anything but secure dominion voting system, which is used in states where tens of thousands of votes were stolen from us and given to biden. a newer fox news correspondent, a woman named jacqui heinrich -- deleted or lost votes changed votes, or was in any way compromised, which is exactly how reporters should have responded to the claims that trump was making. but later that night, in a group text that, apparently, exists, with fox news host laura ingraham, tucker carlson and sean hannity, carlson texted hannity, please, get her fired, what the f? -- it needs to stop immediately, like tonight. it's a measurably hurting the company. -- by the next morning, heinrich had deleted that fact check.

the entire filing by dominion is bonkers. and yes, that's a technical term. it reads like a novel. there are direct quotes from senior figures in the fox news universe, admitting privately that they knew the election was not stolen, despite the paranoid conspiracies exploring the very opposite idea -- the conspiracies that were all over the fox airwaves. you should really read the whole thing. well, we can tweet a link to it. but the one you really need to see is this. on january 5th, 2021, rupert murdoch, the owner of the media empire that fox news is part of, he emailed fox news ceo suzanne scott. it has been suggested our primetime three -- sean hannity, tucker carlson, and laura ingraham -- should independently or together say something like the election is over and joe biden won.

we're not continued that such a statement will go a long way to stop the myth that the election was stolen. fox's ceo then for that email to the executive president of prime time programming at fox, saying, i told rupert that, privately, they are all there. we need to be careful about using the shows and hissing of the viewers. but they know how to navigate, which is all -- wow. if you widen the aperture a bit, and if you look at the big picture here, the core of what dominion is alleging is that fox felt forced to push lies about the election so they would not lose their trump supporting audience. they were terrified of losing them. they were just desperate to stay in their good graces. and so, they lied. again and again -- loyalty at all costs -- and that phenomenon, the trump loyalty test, echoes beyond conservative media. we are seeing it play out right now inside the republican party. just last month, republican national committee chair ronna

mcdaniel faced and uncertain challenge from candidates seen as more sufficiently hard-core in their conservative world views. she ended up winning the position again as head of the rnc, but a third of the rnc's members voted against her. now, mcdaniel is clearly worried about the same thing happening in the republican primary, the splintering of a party that is only very loosely held together and mostly by president trump. today, the washington post reported that, next wednesday, an internal rnc committee is scheduled to meet to lay down its rules for the 2024 presidential republican primary debates. and they intend to require candidates to sign a pledge, stating that they will support whoever the eventual nominee is or the rnc won't let them debate. like tucker carlson or fox news executives, it seems the rnc is worried that if they lose trump, the republican party could get its news next, a third party. and that might mean, the whole thing could fall apart. joining us now is michael scherer, a reporter for the washington post, who is the lead reporter on this piece tonight. it's good to see you, my friend.

-- >> thank you very much for having me. >> what is the likelihood that ronna mcdaniel can get this done? >> i think it's a certainty right now that she will -- this rule past next week that there will be a requirement to get on that debate stage. now if the question is, can she keep the party together even if there is a nominee next year, i'm not sure how much power she actually has. what she is doing is basically beginning an education process, where she's going to be saying, over and over again, to republican voters across the country that you will lose the next general election if you don't find a way to stick together. and we have to convince the candidates as well to find a way to stick together. the problem she has, obviously, is that the number of candidates right now, the potential candidates, are not saying they will commit. and so, there is going to be a standoff a little bit to figure

out whether someone like donald trump who just said a few weeks ago that he is not ready to support the nominee, whether he wants to get on that debate stage. >> they try this in 2015, right? reince priebus wanted all republicans he sign another loyalty place. trump sided and then i think it was six months later, at a town hall, basically backed off the pledge entirely. so, are they once burned, twice shy? is this is to trump prevent trump from doing the exact same thing again? and it is not the person they are most concerned about? i >> think there could be a split from either end of the party. obviously, trump is a concern. there was a monmouth poll this week that found about 33% of republican voters wanted trump to be the nominee and 27% of republican voters -- so, almost all of those said that if trump did not win the nomination, he should run in a third party bid. so, there's enormous danger there. there's also danger on the other side.

you have a number of candidates like larry hogan, asa hutchinson, maybe chris sununu -- who are staking out positions to say, i really don't want, i don't want trump as the next nominee. it would hurt us in the next general electric. they have not gone as far as saying they would not support him in the general election. but they are right there up to the line. so, that danger is very real. now, what happened in 2015's, reince priebus had all the candidates signed this pledge to support the nominee. and the leverage he had there was, he assumed candidates would not want to lie. they would not want to sign a piece of paper and then go back on their word. and then, if they did, they would be punished by voters. it turned out that was not the case. president trump then candidate trump, signed the pledge, months later, went back on his, where john kasich went back on his word and said cruz suggested -- he was a little wishy-washy about it but suggested he was not sure he was going to support trump as the nominee. and it ultimately did not matter. trump won that election.

so, the leverage that ronna mcdaniel has here is somewhat limited. i think what this does, though -- what she can do, is control the conversation at this point. and this will come up in the debates. it will be a talking point in the campaign's. and i think her hope is that, over time, republican voters begin to internalize this message. they really do need to find a way to like all parts of their party or they are just going to lose to the democrats. >> pardon me for minimizing the importance of larry hogan to the republican party. >> yeah. >> but it is kind of charming that it's even a concern, what chris sununu and larry hogan want to do, whether or not they want to endorse former president trump. it feels like the existential danger of the party here is that job. because, if you look at the polling, i think it's like -- polling among republican voters, should trump run as an independent in 2024 if he doesn't win the gop nomination? 27% of the party says yes. that would effectively and the republican party's prospects of the national governing coalition, wouldn't it? >> it absolutely would. but if you have a general election like we have had the

last few cycles, where the percentage difference in democrats and republicans comes down to two or three points, it can also matter if you lose some of those republican voters who, we just saw in the last midterms -- you know, a lot of republican stayed home or did not vote for someone like blake masters or kari lake, because they thought they were a little too far out there. and those of the people who otherwise want to vote for the republican and may listen to someone like chris sununu, may listen to someone like larry hogan. you are absolutely right. the danger in terms of numbers is far greater on the trump side. and trump has used this threat of possibly breaking with the party and going independent a number of times. he used it after january 6th. it was part of his negotiating strategy to get kevin mccarthy to come down to mar-a-lago and meet with him for those few weeks there. a lot of the party was shunning him. and he used it effectively, he leveraged it then. he used it effectively as leverage in 2015. and i fully expect he will do it again in this coming election.

>> the trump threat, as we see, cuts across all spectrums of american society and all forms of media, governance and the. like michael scherer, thank you for your time tonight. and great reporting. it's good to see you. >> yeah, thank, you alex. >> joining us now is jeremy peters, who is covering dominion voting machines lawsuit against fox news for the new york times. jeremy, thank you for being with me tonight, as we unpack what is -- there has been quite a bit of coverage of this brief and the contents they are in. but every time i read a quote, even the ones i have heard before, it is explosive what we have learned here. can you talk to me a little bit about the defense that fox news is mounting in the face of all this information? >> well, fox will try to say that this is all protected speech under the first amendment. but alex, as you have seen in everything that we have heard over the last few days, this is anything but standard. and what dominion is arguing is that in fact it is proof that fox knew that what they were

putting on the air was false and they did it anyway for the sake of profitability and ratings. and if you look at actually what was said on the air, in those, days when you look at what was happening to fox's ratings, that is actually very prove-able and very easy a case to present to a jury. you have fox, at one point, telling the truth, getting out ahead of the rest of the news organizations in the country, saying, biden is going to win. then, fox's audience revolted, saying, no. donald trump actually won this. and you have these extraordinary email and text exchanges from behind the scenes among fox executives and hosts, saying, whoa. our viewership is revolting. they are leaving us. they are going to newsmax.

they are destroying our brand. this ceo of fox news herself says, we are going to reset. this is a new day, from day one. and from then on it is a cascade of these fraudulent false claims of fraud, the dominion machines are somehow at the center of this non existent conspiracy to steal the election from donald trump. and from the legal excerpts experts that i have spoken to, they have said that they have really seen a case that is this easy to prove, that has this substantial a log of evidence that proves that what the defendant knew at the time shows that they were lying. >> jeremy peters, i will read foxes diamonds in the wake of all. is there will be lots of noise and confusion generated by the men and their opportunistic private equity owners. at the core of this case

remains the freedom of the press and freedom of speech, which are fundamental rights afforded by the constitution and protected by new york times versus sullivan. it seems to me that this was not a freedom of the press press and freedom of speech. this is about giving a platform to a group of conspiracy theorists, who literally said, they are receiving some of this information from the wind. right? this is not news. this is was language that was intended to stoke the interest and the rage of the trump base. i wonder if you agree with our thesis that -- i mean, at fox's problems are inherently the gop problems, which is, they are all just paralyzed by this existential fear that trump and his supporters will ditch their support for either the party or the outlet. >> fox is afraid of its audience, just like mitch mcconnell and the republican party our frayed of their

voters. they do not fully understand these people. and they feel the need to give them what they think that they want. and occasionally, they have misjudged that. trump has misjudged himself from time to time. but ultimately, he has a much better finger on the pulse of voters than any establishment republican figure or any producer at fox news does. and this is why they reacted with such an about face after giving the audience what was initially good journalism. >> right. >> fox was the first to report that -- let's not lose that as a fact of what happened here. fox was the first to report, and they were correct in -- you know, a lot of mainstream publications pilloried them and said, they got out way too ahead of the curve here. arizona is too early to call. well, they were right. and then fox backed away from

that. once they saw the backlash from their audience, they said, you know what? we are going to actually tell our audience something that we know not to be true. tucker carlson knew this not to be true. laura ingraham knew this not to be true. sean hannity, as he told suzanne scott, the ceo of fox news, knew that joe biden had been legitimately elected. the president -- and to your point about the wind, i don't think that should go lost on your audience. the evidence that sydney powell had, that she presented to fox news producers and hosts, was an email from a woman who is delusional, who said she could hear the wind speaking to her, and that she had been killed in a prior life. they have this in their hands. and they put sydney powell on the air anyway as a woman who is the voice of the trump administration, saying that this is why she believed the election had been stolen through dominion machines. that is all in this case.

that's just a tip of the iceberg. let's not forget, there is a lot that we don't know, alex. there's a lot in this complaint that's been redacted that we still cannot see. if you were to look at it, there are paragraphs and pages that are blacked out that we will eventually see what is behind those. and from what i am told, what is there is even more explosive than what we have already seen. >> just for people who have not read the brief, yet powell's source explained she gets her information from experiencing something like time travel in a semiconscious state, allowing her to see what others don't see and hear what others don't hear. and she received messages from the wind. that is the source that sydney powell went on fox news and gave credence to, and as you said, there was fraud in the 2020 election. that's what we are talking about. here jeremy peters, thank you

for your time and reporting. nice one. >> thank you. >> we have lots more to get to tonight, like this guy -- rudy giuliani, as you have not seen him in decades, before he risked his legacy, his livelihood and, who knows, maybe even more from donald trump's quest to hold on to power. plus, when a train full of toxic chemicals derailed in eastern ohio, it not only put residents at risk. it also revealed the cruelty that is part of the republican platform. we will have more on that just ahead. when it comes to reducing sugar in your family's diet, the more choices, the better. that's why america's beverage companies are working together to deliver more great tasting options with less sugar or no sugar at all. in fact, today, nearly 60% of beverages sold contain zero sugar. different sizes? check. clear calorie labels? just check. with so many options, it's easier than ever to find the balance that's right for you. more choices.

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>> this is how it looked on february 3rd, in east palestine, ohio, when the 1. 7 mile long, 151 car 18,000 ton norfolk southern freight train derailed. smoke plumes, strains trains stacked side by side, on fire. at least 11 of the cars that the rail carried the carcinogen vinyl chloride, along with other chemicals required to make adhesives, plastics and construction materials, all right in the middle of a town of nearly 5000 people that borders pennsylvania. on february 6th, emergency crews came to the scene of a derailment to try to get rid of those substances with a controlled release and burn. but if someone breathed in high levels of something like vinyl chloride, they might experience headaches, dizziness, and increased risk of developing

certain types of cancer. to avoid those health risks, residents were evacuated from those their homes while those chemicals burned. but even while they were away, east palestine residents and reporters said they could see a mushroom cloud of smoke, when it released a strong, dizzying odor. by february 8th, authorities found the air quality in the area safe enough for residents to return. so, they did. and this is what they observed next. >> it does not smell safe. i'm taking my things and i'm out of here. everyone else around here can call their own shots. >> don't tell me it's safe. something is going on if the fish are floating in the creek. >> i feel about 80% safe. >> i have heard that they've got two dogs that actually drank out of there and died. yeah, i got headaches. the other night, when i was coming home from work, i was coming down through campbellton. i could smell it clear down there. >> health wise, cancer? is this going to be a big cancer cause or? in 5 to 10 years? do i have to walk my daughter down the aisle? well i see her get married? what's going to happen?

>> residents who have returned to the evacuation zone have reported headaches, rashes, respiratory issues and coughing. they have expressed their concern about whether the chemicals are now in the soil and drinking wells. when governor mike dewine was asked in a press conference this week whether he would return to the crash site if he lived there, this was his answer. >> i think that i would be drinking the bottled water. and i would be continuing to find out what the tests are showing as far as the air. i would be alert and concerned. but i think i would probably be back in my house. >> that is actually the resounding advice from state officials, by the way. it just by some bottled water when you get back home. but residents of east palestine say many of them are on welfare. they rely on programs like snap, commonly known as food stamps, to get the food and the bottle of water that they need. and, in an emergency like this,

those are exactly the sorts of programs you might expect to follow back on. the social safety net is meant to help low income communities, particularly when they are facing heightened health risks and food scarcity. and that is why it is so surprising that, as this crisis unfolds, republicans in washington are seriously suggesting slashing those very same programs, so they can decrease the federal debt limit. house republicans are considering adding stricter work requirements to the national food stamps program, and reducing aid to low income adults without children. that is all, in addition to the impending reduction of monthly snap allotments by $82, on average, which starts next month. republicans, like ted cruz and marco rubio, are incensed by what is happening in east palestine, ohio right now. and at the same, time they are sharpening their knives for a program that would help people buy bottled water in an emergency just like this one. joining us now is congressman ro khanna i, democrat from california who sits on the house agriculture and reform committees.

congressman ro khanna, thank you for being here tonight. >> thank you. thank you for covering this. >> this is really important. because i think we often don't see the connection between urging residents to buy bottled water, in a moment of real vulnerability, and then also cutting programs like food stamps, which are meant to help the most vulnerable among us. can democrats make this argument? because it seems like republicans are trying to get some sort of mileage out of this political marriage, if you will, out of this train crash, in terms of their attacks on the democratic governor in this state. >> alex, what is said is that this is turning into a political football. what is happening to people in east palestine is horrific. it is one of the largest environmental disasters. these are working class -- almost 70% in poverty, as you pointed out. many face the industrialization, jobs going on short. and what we have to do is a country's come together to support the programs you mentioned so that people have assistance, to support making sure that these rail roads are

safe, that we are holding corporate railroads accountable and safe laws, and emergency brakes. instead of throwing punches at each other in a partisan way. let's focus on the people there who are suffering. >> it seems like the republican party, setting the train saga aside, understands that it has a problem when it comes to their stance on social safety net problems. writ large, there is a debate about how public the gop can be with their intention to slash social safety net programs. we have donald trump out there saying, it is -- rick scott should not be talking about the slashing of social security and medicare, we are not going to talk about the sun setting of entitlement programs. it's a bad idea. let's not do that. bad news for rick scott of florida. there will be no cuts. trump seems to understand the reality of this. he knows the people of east palestine. they voted for him, i think, 71% of the residents there voted for trump. yeah >> and yet there is a parallel

universe in which the party, especially in washington, continues forward to do the very thing they say they are trying not to do. do you think that that hypocrisy comes to roost as they try to slash snap ahead of the passage of the farm bill? >> i do, look, alex, there is a reason why donald trump won the presidency and mitt romney didn't. what donald trump tried to do is he realize that republicans needed to win the working class. you can't be a working class party when you are cutting very benefits to the working class. and now there are people in the congress who are saying flash social social security, slash the health care, slash the health programs that would help people and east palestine. and -- then you have donald trump looking at this and saying you're committing political suicide. a lot of the policies that he rejected mitt romney trying to fashion a more working class constituency are ones that the extreme wing in the house and senate are in agreement with. and that i think would be

political disaster for them in these battleground states. >> i have to ask you, matt gates and low and boebert coauthored a letter again, food stamps snap, and i want to read you a selection from it. as the united states approaches the brink of untenable debt levels, i writer urge you to work with the u.s. congress to enact where requirements as a feature of welfare reform. these incentives will prevent the condemnation of snap beneficiaries twilight of dependency. instead, incentives will restore their dignity. work requirements for able-bodied adults promote community engagement and a transition to self sufficiency. breaking this poverty trap will help future generations avoid welfare programs altogether. this is the age-old dignity argument about people getting people off the social safety net that republicans -- i melded to remember this is mitt romney and -- paul ryan prime argument for governing. are you surprised to see that gates's and boebert's of the party embracing this, and what do you think that portends for

future legislative sessions when they've shown to have so much power in kevin mccarthy's caucus? >> they do it and -- it's important to realize that there are work requirements in a number of snap benefits. that was in bill clinton's reforms. in the 1990s. now some of the liberals oppose them but those work requirements are there. and this idea that you have people just getting said benefits without having to do job rating programs. without having to actually seek employment is just not true. this is a myth from ronald reagan's welfare wings up plays on the worst racial stereotypes and it's actually false. and i don't think it's winning politics. the big collide in this country is are you a particle working class, you understand that many americans can't afford to live in america, they can't afford childcare, they can't afford health, care they can't afford education. and are you going to help them or are you just for the elites?

and a party that's for the working class, i think that's the party that will. when >> i think it's also worth mentioning as there is a top of the bloated nature of these programs and how they are rife with fraud, the usda found a fraud raid in snap of less than 1% annually. it serves 40 million americans. the integrity of this program should not be questioned and the utility of it should not be questioned either. congressman ro khanna, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> still more to come tonight including a proposal to the teens for as young as 14 who work in places who have, for the last hundred years or so, been considered way too dangerous. plus, how did rudy giuliani go from this guy on the left side of your screen, to this guy on the right side of your screen? we will talk to someone who's been on this case since day one. that's coming up! that's coming up suffering from sinus congestion, especially at night?

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headline. federal officials say more than 100 children worked in dangerous jobs for slaughterhouse cleaning firm. now that is not a headline that was from a 100-year-old newspaper, this was from today which is what you could guess because yes, it has the peacock logo and it's on the internet. but regardless, the labor department today announced on one of the largest food sanitation companies in the

country paid one point $5 million in fines for violating child labor laws saying they use more than 100 children, some as young as 13 to work hazardous and high risk cleaning jobs in his overnight shifts in meatpacking plants across eight states in the south and midwest. the children use caustic chemicals to clean razor sharp saws. including a 13-year-old and 14 year old who sustained chemical burns on the job. according to investigators the 32-year-old worked the overnight shift and then went to school in felicity bin classes or miss school entirely. the company says it has a zero tolerance policy against employing anyone under the age of 18 and that it is fully committed to working with the department of labor to make additional improvements to enforce that policy. regardless, now is probably not a good time for a new bill in iowa which was introduced by republican state lawmaker just a few weeks ago to address worker shortages. the bill was reportedly expand working hours for teenagers during the school year and

allow children as young as 14 to work in certain jobs and meatpacking plants like industrial freezers and meet coolers so long as they are separated from where the meat is prepared. lawmakers who support this bill say the teens would be participating in a job training program but opponents are harkening back to the early 1900s. before federal regulations prohibited children from working hazardous jobs. and they're saying there's a reason our society said it's not appropriate for children to work in those conditions. and then there is this. the proposed bill that would protect businesses from liability if a child worker's second or hurt, or killed on the job. we will be right back. and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv

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new york and a triumphant moment for the biggest black population for any american city. >> a new coalition of conscience and purpose. one that has room for everyone and excludes no one. >> but giuliani who monitored a sometimes brutally pressed null campaign, called for unification. >> in the highest tradition of our democracy, we will work together with all of our might to build a great city here in new york. >> i gave rudy a lot of praise and he came out and started talking about, we have a new mayor and we have to get behind him and support him. >> i've just spoken to mayor

elect david jenkins. no! no! no! no. >> start people started shouting, no, no, no it was a fraud. and all the stuff you hear today about trump. >> quiet! quiet! >> rudy told them to quiet down. >> he will be the first -- listen -- [screaming] he is the first african american to hold the office of mayor of the city of new york. and that is a historic achievement for which we all applaud. >> that was a scene from msnbc in time studios knew for-part documentary series, when truth is in truth, the rudy giuliani story which premiers sunday at 10 pm eastern. rudy giuliani had just lost his first bid for the mayor of new york city. the city's first black mayor. and when his supporters erupted and claims of fraud and claims her a recount, giuliani admonish them as he accepted the legitimate results of that election. it's a remarkable contrast with

the rudy giuliani we know today. the man who would go on to be one of the chief instigator since trump's claims of a stolen election. the man who helped press conference, after press conference undermining the election results. sometimes standing in front of a landscaping business, sometimes fresh from the beauty salon. the man who had his law license revoked in the state of new york who is facing another potential disbarment in washington d. c.. the man who could be one of the witnesses facing potential perjury charges as part of the georgia investigation into trump's scheme to overturn the election in that state. and the man who has been subpoenaed to testify by the special counsel overseeing the federal investigation into trump's election scheme. msnbc's new four-part doc serious chronicles giuliani's jordan celebrated prosecutor to new york's mayor to trump lucky. the series shows how giuliani evolved over time on issues like election integrity. but it also shows parts of giuliani's personality that have not changed over time. like being a nick restive persecutor attacking black and brown people --

that's giving figure he has today, the filmmaker speaks to former aides and politicians, members of his own family, and reporters including the man who joins us now. kurt anderson is the cofounder of the greats by magazine and the author of evil geniuses, the unmaking of america. and fantasyland, how america went haywire. and you know how giuliani went haywire, presumably, kurt. >> i'm not going to tell you how. >> but i think what's so interesting about documentaries like this as you see where he ends up. and we're so eager to know was it always within him, right? and as one of our most important chronicler's of new york city, as cofounder of spy, you guys, back in the day, you were covering giuliani even before he was mayor. this is amazing headline i think we have a clip of it, here's a profile of giuliani called the toughest wini in

america. can we show them literally, the headline says it all. when you recall giuliani from that era, what stands out to you as you revisit his early career? >> that was when he had been u. s. attorney in new york city for six or seven years. that's -- how we covered, him as a political ambitious was attorney who prosecuted black and brown people, as your introduction said. also famously created his sort of elliott ness, thomas julie and corruptible mr. clean reputation by prosecuting wall street malefactor's. and marching them out for the press like perps. exactly. which made him -- which was brilliant political theater that he did. and that was his reputation. and he was a tough prosecutor. then he became a tough mayor under him, he is not responsible for it exactly, but he didn't stop it, under him as mare, crime that was at this historic peak started.

dropping for lots of reasons. as it did throughout the united states, and particularly. here there he was, this untouchable law enforcement character and lots of people loved him and voted for him. he was a lot of things and we wrote pieces about why he's a blustery and he's a lackey. at that, point and all the motto, the republican senator from new york. but he was what he was. so to see what he has become it's like the bizarre row world opposite way inversion of -- >> disbarred! >> disbarred. >> discredited. >> this pathetic guy. he went from being a convicted robbers son, that's what -- that's the family came out of, to being this mr. clean character. and being the altar boy opposite of his. and you know, sooner or later, starting this century and meeting donald trump he falls in two of the jan disrepute of what he was trying to escape. there is the famous michael crimea, they always draw drag you back. and he dragged himself back. and >> one thing that struck me from reading that old article is how in numbered he was with this idea, as you point out, of

this 1960s era law and order figure. but what seemed most attractive to him, or at least if i'm reading between the lines in the piece, was how it was the opposite of 1960s counterculture. it was this very conservative way of living, there was a clear right and wrong. there was no cell reflection. there was none of the sort of anti government questioning that existed on the left. that it was very clear, but kind of thinking found a very easy home with donald trump and his strongman persona that he developed in the 2016 race. do you think that culturally that was as attractive to

giuliani as anything else? >> of course it was. but you also mentioned that he was this almost puritanical character. you know, to be coming this boozy, mar-a-lago hanging out guy. so i think that what he was playing, as was richard nixon before him in the 60s and 70s, was playing to this white working class large number of people, americans, voters. giuliani in new york as nixon was in the united states. and that, 20, 30, 40, 50 years later is of course what propelled trump to the presidency. but his thing with, what he

became in the 21st century is this guy just looking to make a buck anyway he can, really. and to have expensive scotch is and go to the cigar bar and have pretty babes on his arm. that's what he became. and it's like a bad fictional curve. >> it's a tragedy, a fiction. to that, and at the shamelessness, the self effacing nature of his current role, the hair dye running down his face, not getting paid by trump, basically a two bit con man, speaks to his inherent character. the weakness of his character. and this piece in 1988 recognizes that giuliani is so in need of a patron, a father figure to a point time. he never really ends -- aside from his mayorship, he doesn't really run for higher office because he needs to be appointed. and he is so much that person in the shadow of donald trump. >> and what you saw in that piece, and 89 i think, which is again about his life about to become senator, if he could, or

may or. what you see is that he was a political character all along. it's not as though he was above politics. he used politics. he helped his political allies along with his campaign manager 's first failed run for roger ailes, by the way. but he was always playing that angle even though he was portraying himself as this incorruptible mr. clean. that angle playing became the whole thing within 20 years. >> there is a term for that and i believe it's called a hollow man. and now the hollow man isn't a great deal of legal jeopardy. kurt anderson, cofounder of the greats by magazine. the great court anderson. thank you for joining me tonight. it's good to see. you when the truth isn't the truth, the rudy giuliani story premiers this sunday at 10 pm eastern. we will be right back.

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laboratories of democracy. but what we are seeing in republican held states is that states are becoming labs for autocracy. they are the book bans and dispenser ship of certain terms and ideas, if the voter suppression laws, the reversal of freedoms over bodily autonomy. and there is what is happening at the state level when it comes to covid-19. florida's governor ron desantis, for example, recently got the state supreme court to convene a grand jury to investigate crimes and wrongdoing committed against floridians relating to the covid-19 vaccine. which appears to be an attempt to appease anti-vaxxers in the state by floating the idea that the vaccines are very, very dangerous despite the fact that this is simply not true. and now this week, their republican lawmakers in idaho who are proposing an outright ban on all mrna vaccines. under their new bill, any new person who administers one of these vaccines will be charged with a crime. it is not law yet and it has a

long way to go. but the proposal is basically it attempt to win back time and technology and ensure many, many, many more people die. as a reminder according to one study, at least 3 million american lives have been saved as a result of the mrna covid vaccines. so thank, you science. we are sorry some people don't believe in you. that does it for us tonight, now it is time for the last word with amy mohyeldin sitting in for lawrence o'donnell. good evening, amen. >> good evening, alex. i wonder how long it's gonna be before we see republicans actually want to ban electricity to take us back to the ages of candles, because you know. >> just women cooking over candles and stone balls. >> yeah, but they're gonna keep the gas stoves, they're not gonna let them touch the gas. >> that's right! cooking over gas stoves. gas in the air. >> great is always to see you my friend, enjoy the rest of the we weekend. >> have a good weekend. >> it is now a matter of public record that fox hosts knew they were lying when they repeated donald trump's big lie about