thank you for that. the fewer over the ohio train draymond continues. a community, asking angry questions about how it happened and whether their government is telling them everything about the health risks. the truth. if they don't have the data, say we don't have the data. i don't say it is a, if you are fine, kobe or. families raise your babies here even though they are getting sick and having nosebleeds. and god knows what we are going to see and five, ten, 15, 20. years >> people are getting sick. we should not have been left back into town until all of this was dumb. >> in a moment, i'm going to speak with reed frazier. a local reporter on the ground in that community as well as transportation committee member representative andrew horseman about the still unfolding catastrophe. i am also going to ask the congressman about those balloons shoot downs on whether president biden has answered all of the questions about what exactly happened. and the plan going forward.

also ahead, senator john fetterman, reaching out for help for a clinical depression. i will talk to a doctor about his prognosis, and one of the senators very public admission could help millions of americans suffering in silence. we will also take you live to turkey where the rescue operations continue, and we will have the amazing story of a mother and son who survived 129 hours under the rubble. that is ahead, as well. we begin though with the fallout from the massive train drill meant in ohio just two weeks ago now. he was on the ground. their residents continuing to provide a report wearing held some to symptoms. governor attempted easter mindset, saying aaron watcher tests have come back normal. >> >> i understand people have been traumatized. i understand skepticism. sometimes skepticism is warranted. we have a lot of people in here who have absolutely no reason

to be lying, no reason to be minimizing this. and frankly, i have no reason to minimize this. joining me now, reed fraser, reporter for the allegheny front. reed, thanks for joining us on this. i appreciate it. you know, it is interesting that we are sort of the governor there. because i remember just a couple of days ago, that he was the one who said if i were there are budgeting bottled water. meanwhile, the community and folks, leaders in that community other than they were saying, everything is safe, everything is. good you can return to your homes. so there's really kind of this broke interest, it seems in that community right now with what has been happening and communication as. we'll tell us more asked to what do you have been seeing and speaking to folks. >> yeah, just a lot of confusion. mixed messages, you know. when minutes they are telling you that the water is safe, and they're like actually, he should be drinking bottled water. they are telling you that the air is safe to breathe and yet

people are experiencing all of these strange, not strange but predictable health impacts and potential chemical exposure. rashes, headaches, things like that. these are consistent with some sort of chemical issue in the air. and it smells bad. i, mean i was there. i went to the site and it didn't smell good. and you know, so i think that's what people there. also, we have to say that when the government says, distrust the government. we have ample evidence that that might not be the best policy for you and your family. so, one of the reporters actually brought up the idea of a 9/11 first responder and when the government told them it was safe to breathe the air. >> yeah, we have been talking about that a lot on air as well because it doesn't necessarily seem like the consequences of a spill like this or exposure like this happens in the

immediate days following. it happens in the years following it seems. and i think that is kind of the overarching worry of all of this. you have reported on how this train was not considered to be carrying highly hazardous cargo. the governor himself called that absurd. how did this happen, and could there now be support to kind of update these rules and the type of cargo these trains are carrying? >> well, the last time that these rules about hazardous, they're called high hazard trains. i just learned this term. the last time they were updated was sort of in the beginning of the 2010s. you will remember there were a lot of rail trains that were bringing oil from the fracking to north dakota all over the country and they kept crashing and having these horrific accidents. so congress or the pipeline, the federal agency that

oversees hazardous material transport updated its rules and considered all kinds of things. they considered mandating electronic brakes which are better for stopping according to studies. the rail industry. the railroads say that there are technical issues with those. but a lot of people are looking at those as potentially interventions that could make a rail, a derailment like this less severe. so. there, you know when the rules are written also they excluded chemicals like these. they only included flammable liquids. not flammable gases. so you have basically a big loophole for these kind of car goes to be transported around the country. and so that is what happened

here. >> wow, lots of questions here still needing to be answered as the story is developing. reed frazier, thank you for joining us and thank you for your continued reporting on this really important topic. we appreciate it. i want to bring it now, bring in if we can representative andré carson from indiana. he is a member of the house transportation and intelligence committees as well. congressman carson, thanks for joining us on this. let me just first get your gut reaction from that state and federal response to what has taken place. in east palestine and how they are dealing, especially with this overwhelming fear and confusion. so many residents have in that area right now. >> yeah. my heart goes out to the residents of east palestine. and ohioans who are wrestling with this issue. indiana is right next to ohio and so we have been getting calls about the impacts of this

on -- as well. so who we are closely monitoring these developments. we've had numerous meetings about. them as members of the transportation infrastructure will subcommittee, i will be waiting to learn more about what in tdsb says about what caused this incident. and i think that the biden harris administration has effectively mobilized a very robust multi agency effort to support the folks in east palestine ohio. including support from the epa. >> so, i think there is a question of what caused. at the aftermath and how they have been dealing with it, and then why in fact this train was carrying such hazardous materials in the first place. if god forbid, something like this happens in which it did. this is according to the department of transportation. there are more than 1000 derailments every year. and that has fallen dramatically since the 70s. the number of cars carrying hazardous materials on trains, that derailed, had actually

grown. what needs to be done in your estimation to make sure that something like this does not happen again? . >> well, i think we need a multi agency approach. where these agencies are reviewing their policies, they are strengthening internal controls, and longer trains effectively become heavier trains. which create greater possibilities for accidents. but, i am very happy that epa ministry to reagan visited the folks in east palestine today. it is unfortunate what happened. i would like for the administration to deepen the relationships with locally elected officials there who are on the ground working hard, and bring some kind of calm in the midst of the storm that will serve us an example of what to avoid going forward. >> there is also the question of a cozy relationship it seems

some real industry donors have with lawmakers. and i am talking specifically about the former president of the united states. the obama ministration, they had rules requiring hazmat chains to have new technology. that was repealed by former president donald trump. and i will say, that was after a 2016 campaign which really industry donors poured more than $6 million into gop campaign coffers. how can americans trust that they are being looked out for when things like this happen i? their safety is being taken for granted. >> i think that we have to make sure that citizens aren't just voting. a vote by itself will not help. we have to hold elected officials accountable after we elect them and reelect them. to make sure they are doing a proper job of being trustees over taxpayer interests, and

overseers and working in an oversight capacity over ntsb, over the epa, and working with those administrators to ensure that these things don't happen. we have to also work with the rail companies as well to make sure that they are raising their standards and that the bottom line isn't just to focus. in that we are updating our rail systems to have the best technology so that we cannot only be competitive, but keep that isn't safe as. well >> yeah, that community certainly need some answers, now today, tomorrow, as they have so many questions and are understandably very worried. we hope that congressman, that you are on it and will join us again as we get more answers amidst this tragedy. thank, you andré carson, congressman. appreciate it. all right, according to nbc news's national security correspondent, courtney, qb u.s. officials say the china maybe providing russian on that lethal military assistance in the ukraine war. i want to head now back to munich where cornea setting by

four. us talk about a figure of the relationship, if in fact this is accurate. and we know specifically, secretary blinken at one point had said china specifically should not be doing this type of thing. they have been involved with a course the war in ukraine and other in other ways. but talk us through this reporting, courtney, what you are learning and how long it has been going on. pierre >> it is not just secretary blinken that is when the chinese against. as it has come for the highest levels of u.s. government, from president joe biden, and also jake sullivan. you may remember last year this time the u.s. at the medications that china was considering potentially providing russia with some sort of help for ukraine. that was when these conversations between the two sides began. and up until recently, we had heard consistently from u.s. and biden administration officials that they believed that china was listening. that they were not supplying the sorts of, any sorts of material or military assistant to russia for use in ukraine. now, according to four u.s.

officials familiar with these discussions, now the u.s. believes that china may be supplying russia with non lethal military assistance. the officials declined to see exactly what that assistance was, but said that it could be things like body armor, uniform parts, and maybe some things that would be particularly useful in this upcoming offensive that russia's just launched. it does not appear that they have crossed the line into providing legal assistance. but, sources familiar with this morning that they are concerned that china may be considering crossing that line and moving towards legal systems. now, again, it is not clear that they have made that decision but they are concerned about it. now, because of this u.s. officials here in munich and back in d.c. are having conversations with counterparts, talking to allies about these concerns, and there will be a full court press to try to encourage china not to move forward with any kind of legal assistance. as far as the nonlethal assistance goes, it is not clear whether it violates any sanctions at this point or

whether the biden administration is considering some follow on sanctions in response to this, yasmin. >> so, with all of this, i think a question that we have been wondering about is, will the secretary of state be meeting with his chinese counterpart amidst obviously what has been taking place in the chinese spy balloon, and now this new torching that you're bringing to us. i can't help but think that the pressure is mounting for them to do just that. >> yes. there is a tremendous amount of pressure that she meant to me. does not outside the realm of the possible that they will still meet today here in munich or this evening here in munich. but we don't have any confirmation of a meeting on schedule or one taking place at this point. everyone is waiting to see whether that happens. i will say, it is early enough that it is very plausible that they still could meet so we shouldn't rule it out. but, if they do, you have to imagine this would be on the topic list. especially because there are

reports that when she, the chinese counterpart, maybe heading to moscow soon after this. so, if in fact the two men meet, you have to imagine that this would be on their agenda. >> all right, we are actually getting this just in. andrea mitchell is dropping this in our inbox so you wouldn't have known this while you are on the air but, andrew mitchell is now reporting that in fact the secretary of state concluded a meeting with prc state counselor director of the ccp central foreign affairs office, when you team on the margins of the munich security conference. what in fact they spoke about is the question, if in fact this reporting is something they talked about along with of course the chinese by blue. and hopefully we will get some new new reporting on that. i know we will, because courtney kube and andrea mitchell are on it. for now, thank you. appreciate it. still, ahead everybody, how senator john fetterman's openness about his struggle with depression we help lessen the stigma around mental illness in this country. we certainly need to do that. plus, a new series looks at the rise and fall of former

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pennsylvania's edelman senator john fetterman will remain hospitalized or couple of weeks according to an aide after checking himself into world to read medical center this week. to receive treatment for clinical depression. fetterman has received an outpouring of support since announcing his decision to seek care. his colleague, senator tina smith opened up about her own struggles with depression writing this. >> seeking help when you need, it is a sign of strength not weakness. i join me now to discuss, this doctor leishman. he is a neurologist at massachusetts general hospital and an american heart association national volunteer. dr., joan thank you for joining us on this. we appreciate. at such an incredibly important topic. you got a lot of americans out there who have dealt. >> can you hear me okay? >> we got you doctor joan, can you hear me? dr. swam? oh, it looks like we are having

some audio issues. with doctor shalom. we are going to try to get him back, folks. because i think. dr. swamp, to have you? can you hear me? >> yes. i can hear you. okay >> fantastic, okay. we got it worked out. so, this is such an incredibly important topic. you have a lot of americans who have either had someone in their lives or themselves dealt with stroke and stroke recovery. and now of course the edmonton's from senator john fetterman that he is dealing with severe depression and is checked in for treatment. talk about how common this type of thing is in the aftermath of a stroke and recovery? >> you know, it is one of the things that doesn't get talked about a lot of it is really important which is that psychological trauma of stroke and the changes in the brain chemistry that gonna happen after a stroke. postdepression is very common. it can be in varying degrees of severity, but up to about 30% or more of patients who had a

stroke will experience depression in the post struck period. so it is very common, but as i said before, not talked about very much. so, senator fetterman is in my mind really a hero for being so courageous about bringing this up, and making the topic something that we can all learn more about. >> is it hard to identify unless you are the patient. and i say this because there are aides in fetterman's office who said that they couldn't necessarily distinguish between whether or not this was senator fetterman just dealing with his recovery and not being able to hear certain things that were being side or understand certain things are being side, and or the fact that he was just dealing with this severe depression. >> you know, i think a lot of the symptoms of depression oak or appear commonly in peoples lives. they just are not disabling. sometimes you feel low, sometimes you don't want to get about in the morning. sometimes you don't feel like eating. and we often excuse those because oh, they had a stroke it must be hard. are over there on the campaign

trail, it must be hard. but i think the reality is, he has had depression before according to his accounts. he knew the signs and symptoms, probably after this family. and they were smart to seek care when they were concerned that the symptoms were getting difficult to control. so, again i think just a great lesson about treating depression and behavioral health issues the same way we would treat medical issues. >> absolutely. reducing the stigma around mental health in this country, which is so incredibly important. can you talk to me about the treatment process. we are being told that he is going to be in inpatient care for a quote unquote, few weeks. what does that look like? >> i think, as with any form of depression, it is a combination of counseling, medication use or adjustment, trying to reduce stress and restore normal healthy self care patterns. sleeping, well eating, well exercising. and for someone who has been

under the kind of stress that he has, taking on a very important new job and all of those challenges, it's maybe that part of the reason to be in the hospital is relieved to have more control over the setting and the kind of strict medication adjustments that can be made with direct observation. >> yeah, great. point dr. leigh sean, we thank. you great to talk to you, sir. >> all right, stay aiden versatile council member who uses a wheelchair was forced to hoist himself on to a debate stage this week after the venue lacked proper wheelchair excessive realty. councilman bird chris hines said that he felt like a circus monkey and was humiliated by the experience. organizers eventually held a debate in front of their stage rather than on its after being unable to lift heinz 400 pound wheelchair. hind says, he hopes his experience brings awareness about disability accommodations in this country. coming up next. on a firsthand look inside

turkey, at the growing frustration over how easily buildings crumbled during the earthquake that left more than 44,000 people dead. >> local administrations like municipalities and contractors void of any accepted corners to try to make money. they have used loopholes in the law for their personal gain. law for their personal gain. wewemited hotspot data. (woman 2) you know it's from the most reliable 5g network in america? (vo) when it comes to your business, not all bars are created equal. so switch to verizon business unlimited today. living with metastatic breast cancer means i cherish my memories. but i don't just look back on them, i look forward to the chance to make new ones every day with verzenio. verzenio is proven to help you live significantly longer when taken with fulvestrant. verzenio + fulvestrant is for hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer that has progressed after hormone therapy. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection.

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minister said, 6.8 million homes in turkey work incident risky. and that 1.5 million needed to be thrown down urgently. what really strikes you here is you've got these buildings standing side by side that face completely different phase. one obliterated, the other completely intact. and there are lots of buildings like this. with huge cracks in them. they will have to be inspected, and if there is structural damage, they will have to be torn down. >> in a scan, drain fat men's desperate to get back into her home. to recover the bodies of her daughter and grandson. they are gone, they are gone she cries. i cannot breathe. >> it is a hellish landscape. ruins.

regression. it must stop a cease grieved. >> and turkey there is no progress. we are always going backwards. architects, contractors, they are just looking at how they can steal, how they can gain. >> when those rare still moments, this feels like a museum of mourning. no one chose to visit of course, and yet, so many will struggle to leave. cordelia lynch, sky news, iskenderun, turkey. >> gangs to you sky news reporter caitlin for that report. in syria, where the white helmets rescue groups as the death toll tops 2000, a glimmer of hope after a mother and her son were rescued. nbc's canmore describes the harrowing ordeal that you adored as they were shot for 129 hours on the first floor of a five story building that collapsed on top of them.

joining me now is, today.com reporter kevin moore with more on this. every high ebrahim zakaria described his desperation for water saying this. i tried to pull my legs out of the broken wall just to reach the wall so that i could look at for water. i was so thirsty and hungry, that is how i broke my legs. i pulled them out very hard and very quick so i could crawl to reach the wall. and look at. so he broke as legs, because he was so desperate to get even just a drop of water. what else did you tell you? >> well, i am sorry. i get emotional listening to you read that back because i hear his voice and i hear the voice of his answer translated for me when he was in the hospital. he what really struck me and broke me in a way as a reporter, and also as a mother, is there, directly after the earthquake happened he wakes up. you can't see anything. he needs moments to even

realize what just occurred. and then he is calling for his mother and his sister who were cuddling at the time in their two room home when the earthquake happened. she was buried next to his mother. the first 13 minutes, they're calling to each other and he can hear sister scream. she is yelling that the pain is too much, that she can't endure it anymore, that she doesn't know what is going to happen. after 30, minutes he calls for her and he said quote, she was silenced. and he knew then that she had died. and at that moment, he focused on how will i keep surviving, and that was when he broke his legs to lick the wall for five days. 129 hours, just for some water. he also helped his mother. and i can't imagine what this was like. he pulled her to break her legs so that she could also like a wall for water. and that is how those two survived. >> how old a city? >> he is 23. and how old was his sister?

>> his sister was 25. she was supposed to get married in three months. >> oh my gosh. >> so, then it is the road ahead. what does life look like? some of which cordelia touched on. the rebuilding. after this intense amount of loss. and he said to you, we have to start over from 0.0. it took my mother a lifetime to get that small house and now it is gone. everything is gone. i lost the ability to walk. it will take time to recover. i cannot work, i do not know where we will get the money for the medical bills. they are very expensive. we don't know what we are going to do. >> that is what i really keep coming back to you is, can you imagine after five days you have a five story building on top of you, and yet that may not be the worst of it. they have nothing. he told me he doesn't even have underwear. no close to where once he leaves the hospital. they have no idea where they are going to go. thankfully, they have some family. but that family doesn't have

money to support them either. everyone collectively are trying and they are grateful and, again, the road america without over it over again. but there is still this may reality of, what do we do it now? where do we go? and there are no answers. >> at one point, i don't remember which organization it was. i believe it was the white helmets who said that the international community is not stepping up. they are not doing enough. we are hearing reports that today, planes are arriving at damascus international airport. what have you heard from a ibrahim, from others even speaking with a new reporting there about aid? do they feel as if they're getting enough help? >> no. they don't. and what was really striking is, i talked to with a regime, his aunts over a course of about 3 to 4 days. every single conversation from the start to the middle to the

end, it was think. you thank you. you are half a world away and you care. why do you care? it was so shocking to them that i was even talking to them. so, the idea of eta don't think is even coming to their mind. they are shocked that anyone even cares to listen to their story. i don't think that they are even anticipating the world at large to come and help. >> how is his mom doing? his mother's. well unlike abraham, who has to wait for an infection in his leg before he had surgery, his mother got to have surgery on one of her legs. they are next to each other in the hospital. they are very grateful to have that time in recovery together. she is doing well, and so is. he >> daniel cup amar, thank you so much. we appreciated. good to see you. all right, coming, up once again the families and friends of gun violence victims are being forced to grieve in the spotlight as memorial services for the three students who died in the michigan state shootings are help today. we will be right back. are help today we will be right back. asoned pro.

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memorial services are happening this weekend with three students who were killed in monday's mass shooting in michigan state university. funerals for software brian fraser, junior alexander burner, were held earlier this morning while funeral plans for aerial anderson, also a, junior are scheduled for tuesday with the vigil being held this afternoon for additional students were wounded in that attack and remain in critical condition while the fifth victim has in fact been stabilized. also, new developments in the double murder trial of once prominent south carolina legal mogul, alex murdaugh who has been charged with murdering his wife and son. after calling more than 60 witnesses to the stand, prosecutors have now rested their case. nbc's catie beck has more on this. >> critical witness testimony from the prosecutions closing witness, a state investigator presenting a detailed timeline of the night murdoch's wife and son were murdered.

>> so this time line begins roughly when? >> around 6 pm. >> on what? day >> june 7th 2020. one >> cell phone in gps data for murdaugh's our cv pinpoint when he had left his home. the data shows driving faster around the location where maggie murdoch's phone was located at the roadside. just 16 minutes after the time of death. >> with that top speed higher than any speed you achieved when you went to work earlier that day? >> that is. correct >> testimony also revealing murdaugh was at his mother's property for 20 minutes while he had previously given different accounts of how much time he had spent their. telling investigator, he'd been there for 45 minutes to an hour. cell phone data also showing he dialed 9-1-1 less than 20 seconds after he arrived at the kennels. where the bodies of his wife and son were. despite telling investigators he had to turn them over to check for signs of life. >> how many seconds of that from the time the suburban

arrives until he calls 9-1-1? roughly 20. seconds >> friday, the prosecution resting their case. >> the state of south carolina russ. >> but not before introducing more on a potential motive for the double homicide. that the two victims, maggie and paul murdoch, had discovered bags of pills in alex's bag a month before their killings. on may 2021 voice mail message from paul to alec was read in court. >> when you get, here we need to talk. mom found several bags of pills in your computer bag. this is again from paul to alex. on may 6th. >> this, the polls during the states argument that the perfect storm was approaching the once prominent south carolina attorney. who's other alleged crimes ranging from money laundering, to selling painkillers, to insurance fraud, have now taken center stage. the defense, pushing back saying the states case lacks hard evidence. like an eyewitness, video, or

fingerprints such showed alec murdaugh pulled the trigger that night. >> there is no direct, and frankly circumstantial evidence presented that the defendant shot and killed his wife maggie or son paul. for the murder of his son paul, there was no dna from paul in his clothing in the area where you'd expect to find it. >> the defense will now call their witnesses, which could include murdaugh's surviving son, faster. as they fight to prove his innocence. katie, back nbc news. >> thank you, katie back, for. that we are following some breaking news involving former president jimmy carter. nbc news correspondent has the latest details on this. monika, what are we learning? >> yasmin. we have just learned about this information through the carter center. i want to read you a statement on the current condition of the former president and some very difficult decisions that have been made here now for the 28 year old. we are learning that after a series of short hospital stays,

former u.s. president jimmy carter today decided to spend his remaining time at home with his family and receive a hospice care instead of additional medical intervention. he has the full support of his family and his medical. team and the carter family asked for privacy during this time, and is grateful for the concern shown by his many admirers. so, we did know that the former president had recently been ill. he had been in and out of the hospital. and so this is a decision that isn't taking the lightly in any family. but it is one where the carter family has decided that he wants to live out the rest of his days and time surrounded by loved ones in a modest home in plains georgia where he has lived for very many years. of course he is the oldest living president right now. he served of course in the 1970s he served one term as a democratic president, and he is somebody who has really

dedicated the rest of his life when he left office to service. very clearly talking about the importance of that in his life. in recent, years he has had multiple health scares. he has talked about that. and, really, acknowledged the fragility of life. he has really also been with his lifelong partner over these last many decades, roslyn carter who is around 95 years old and we are told that the two of them discussed this along with the entirety of their family, their children, and ultimately came to this conclusion today. so, we are reaching out to the white house and two other former presidents who maybe have been in touch with former president carter in the last couple of weeks and months. and we will let you know what else we learned, yasmin. >> former president jimmy carter choosing to look at the rest of his days at home alongside his family with hospice care. also knowing that he had a cancer diagnosis back in 2015, in which he was diagnosed with melanoma at the time which had spread to his brain and liver.

although he beat it and has certainly been a fighter his entire life. monika alba, thank you for bringing that news for. us we appreciate it. we will be right back, everybodyt. we will be right back, we will be right back, everybod you want a loan to build a factory in america? you can't do that. this is what we were up against. nobody builds factories in the us anymore. you can't do that. experts claimed you couldn't do what we did. you want to hire workers here in the states? you can't do that. weathertech has been proving them wrong, for over 33 years. building our own factories, employing thousands, and making world-class products, right here in america. because when you buy something made in america...we all win. weathertech.

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changed in between. let's watch some of it. >> he was not above understanding what one needed to do to serve that master that is a political master. he knew how to play from a pretty early time. a pretty good game of political hardball. >> we've lost any ability to control the people who come into the united states. >> that is the reagan administration's opinion on immigration policy, as expressed by associate attorney general rudolph giuliani. he says reagan's policy of detention and of haitian refugees has been a deterrent to new arrivals. >> he is treating people as -- . what he did to them, people remembered. the whole idea of corral-ing people, putting him in these cooler tensions under's in the floyd ever grades. >> one of those persons within detention is not in jail because any one of them can easily leave and go back to haiti. >> i think he is possessed with

the angry anger of the exile. i think his family ran away from black people from brooklyn. >> he looks at the window of his manhattan office, you can see across the river to brooklyn where he was born. when he was six, the family moved to the suburbs and long island. >> east flatbush was a working class, middle class, jewish irish italian neighborhood that within a very fast amount of time, maybe 15 years, had transitioned to becoming a working class, a lower middle class, mainly west indian also haitian neighborhood. >> i reminded him, i said, the community that i represent is a community that -- you came and lipton. and i said, we purchased their old houses that they didn't take care of, and we have re-done those houses, and we live in them right now. and the only thing that has changed in that neighborhood, is the accent and the color of the people. >> the institutions stay. the people change.

it is just different kinds of people who are gonna be going there. that is gonna be a haitian immigrants, it is not necessarily going to be an italian kid from brooklyn. >> there was like this disconnect. he is like a new york city guy who never goes back to the place where he started. >> the person that you saw at the start of that clip is michael powell, he is a report of the new york times and he showed me. out michael, thanks for joining us on this. we appreciate. it i am really looking forward to watching this tomorrow evening. it looks incredibly fascinating. and, it seems as if, as you look at giuliani's trajectory there were glimpses of who he has come to be known as now. versus who he was known ass directly following 9/11, quote unquote america's mayor. if we think back to when he was a prosecutor at the doj, along with s t and why, what were some of the things that stood out to you than about rudy

giuliani? >> i mean, i will say this. for rudy and there were many times other reporter when i, when i clashed with him as almost all reporters inevitably ended up doing when he was mayor and when he was prosecutor. he was a formidable character. in the beginning. i, mean he was a very smart, very forceful u.s. attorney. a guy who had a real test for the camera. knew exactly sort of what prosecutions were going to put him in the public eye. and he was, as i say, he was like him or dislike him at that point, he was kind of a far more if you will, formidable character that he is now. >> so far more formidable character. because then we fast forward to 9/11. he became, to a certain extent

the darling of this country. he was known as america's mayor. not only in the city but throughout the country because of the work he did here. what did you make of that time period from when he was known as that too when he ran for president? i know you were covering this in 2008. >> it was actually a fascinating period. because, like before 9/11, he had been kind of in political and personal freefall. he got divorced. he had pulled out of a race against hillary clinton for the senate. he had cancer. there were a lot of things coming down in his and his favorables were falling. he was really seen as kind of yesterday's story. and then there comes 9/11. these towers fall. and he behaves in a very impressive way. he leads rather naturally.

now, within those first couple of months, you are reminded of the power of rudy. that's ability to actually articulate the cities pain. to show forceful leadership. at the same, time within a couple even three or four weeks, he is looking into extending his term which he was term limited. he is twisting arms of politicians. he is starting to. so there's always been, and coated within routine even sort of the a powerful and the kind of operatic. and then, just this lust for power. when that ultimately really didn't serve him well. >> and then there are these moments where you think about rudy giuliani standing outside of four seasons landscaping, and you think what happened to rudy giuliani? what happened to america's mayor? on the readout blog, that is

pushed on msnbc.com, they make the comparison between rudy giuliani and former president donald trump and say, trump is actually giuliani-ism reborn. what do you make of that comparison? >> you know, it's. interesting look. 2001 in a sense of, it is very, what we now think of as trump-like. he is trying to bend laws to extend his own term. so, that is. i, mean that kind of pre figures by a couple of decades what we saw from donald trump. and at the same time, he was again. one needn't say that while you endorses policies or anything like that. to say that the early may or

giuliani was a guy very well schooled in policy. and that does make him different than, i mean it made him frankly more formidable on the local. >> right, michael powell. we thank. you it is going to be good. stuff make sure to catch the first episode of this war part series, when truth is not truth. at the rudy giuliani story tomorrow at 10 pm eastern, right here on msnbc. streaming on peacock, as. well we'll be right back. streaming on peaco, ckas well we'll be right back well we'll be right back re crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom relief ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements at 4 weeks. skyrizi is the first and only il-23 inhibitor for crohn's that can deliver both clinical remission and endoscopic improvement. the majority of people on skyrizi achieved long lasting remission at 1 year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections

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