this is the katie phang show, live from msnbc headquarters in new york city. we have got lots of news to cover and lots of questions to

answer. let's get started. the 39th president of the united states, jimmy carter, beginning home hospice care after battling cancer for several years. carter's grandson stating yesterday that both of his parents are at peace, as always, their home is full of love. the united states and china speaking for the first time since president biden ordered and alleged chinese spy balloon to be taken down. what was discussed? what comes next? and, the commander in chief also getting ready for his trip to poland tomorrow to mark one year since the war in ukraine began. how hat figures into the already tense international climate. and, a good sunday to you. i am katie phang. this morning, former president jimmy carter's at home receiving hospice care. according to a statement from

his foundation, the 98-year-old, quote, decided to spend his remaining time at home. he has the full support of his family and medical team. joining us now from carter's hometown of planes, georgia, is nbc news correspondent priscilla thompson. priscilla, good morning. thank you so much for starting off the show with us. what more can you share with our viewers about how president carter's doing? >> katie, good morning. we know that this decision was made after a series of short hospital stays. that is according to the statement that was released by the carter center. they did not go into details about what those hospital stays may have been related to, but they said that, ultimately, former president carter made the decision to go into hospice care and to spend his remaining days at home, surrounded by his family, including his wife of more than seven decades, rosalind carter. we heard from members of his family yesterday, including his

grandson, who tweeted saying, the carters are, quote, at peace. as always, their home is full of love. at 98 years old, former president carter is the longest-living former president ever. he has outlived two former presidents that served after him. he also has outlived his own vice president. this is not the first time that he has faced this prospect of the end of life. we know that in his 80s he was diagnosed with melanoma in his livers. that spread to his brain. he managed to receive treatment and defy the odds in that situation. he spoke about it afterwards. he talked about, at that time, thinking he may only have a few weeks left. he said that he felt ease. he felt like he lived a life that was exciting, i've done all of these very adventurous things in his life. i imagine that he likely still holds that sentiment today. he's surrounded by his family

members, of course we know there are prayers coming in from all across the country and certainly in this community for the former president, as he goes through this. katie? >> it is a life and legacy of compassion and empathy. i think that is exactly, priscilla, what people associate with president carter and his long, well lived, live. thank you so much, priscilla thompson, this morning. now we turn to major news on the diplomatic front. the first official talks between the united states and china since the alleged chinese spy balloon was shot down with biden's trip to poland coming tomorrow as the crisis in ukraine approaches of one year mark. yesterday we learned that secretary of state anthony blinken met with a senior chinese diplomat while at the munich security conference. two weeks after the united states shut down that balloon off the coast of south carolina. plus, we have nbc news exclusive reporting. china maybe providing russia with non lethal military

assistance in its war against ukraine. that is according to four united states officials. these officials did not provide specifics but it could provide gear for a potential upcoming russian spring offensive. all of this with vice president kamala harris representing the united states at the munich security conference yesterday. while there, she formally declare that russia has committed crimes against humanity. harris spoke exclusively with my colleague, andrea mitchell, right after making those remarks. she had this to say. you also warned china against providing any lethal weapons to russia, against ukraine. >> so, when i said, what concerns us, is we are seeing -- we are concerned about a deepening relationship between beijing and moscow. that speaks for itself. we want to be clear that that is what we are concerned about. that is why i talked about that. >> let's bring in now nbc news

correspondent, allie raffa, live from the white house. ali, good morning. some major international diplomacy moves being made here. what do we currently know about secretary blinken's meeting with his chinese counterpart in munich? >> katie, good morning. that meeting between secretary of state anthony blinken and his chinese counterpart, wang yi lasting just an hour. covering a wide range of topics yesterday. senior state department officials telling nbc news blinken warned ye about consequences of providing military aid to russia. reiterating president biden's intention to speak with pride whose president xi in the future. no timeline on the call was offered. blinken was also being candid with ye about the chinese by balloon shot down more than two weeks ago now. saying that he was disappointed the chinese military refused to answer calls from u.s. officials. also telling ye their surveillance balloon was irresponsible and must never happen again. blinken telling chuck todd on meet the press this morning that despite no apology for the

balloon from china, the high stakes meeting was critical. >> i can tell you, no, there was no apology. i can also tell you that this was an opportunity to speak very clearly, very directly, about the fact that china sent a surveillance balloon over our territory. violating our sovereignty, violating international law. i told him, quite simply, that was unacceptable and can never happen again. >> that senior official also telling nbc, ye continued to claim the balloon was not intended for surveillance purposes and that meeting, katie. >> ali, what can we expect from president biden? we know that he leaves for poland tomorrow. he will be there for a couple of days. what is on the agenda? >> katie, this will be president biden's first time back in poland since march while he was there we expect him deliver an address to show up support for ukraine ahead of the one year anniversary of russia's invasion of ukraine. as well as the atrocities committed by russia since the war began last year. the president will also meet

with polish president today and the bucharest nine which is a group of nations including bulgaria, the czech republic, and the only it to discuss how their reliance can be strengthened to better support ukraine for however long the country needs to we expect that president biden will make it clear that he will push for more financial as well as military aid as ukrainian president zelenskyy prepares for unexpected russian offensive in the spring. asking the u.s. and other western allies for more military aid, including those f-16 fighter jets. the president agreeing, last month, to send u.s. abrams tanks. saying no when asked if he would send the jets. that is a decision that will be front and center when we watch what he will do in poland over the next few days, katie. >> my thanks to you, as always, allie raffa for the latest. more to come, we will dive deeper into the toxic chemical spill that is devastating the community of east palestine, ohio. the mystery symptoms that residents say are not going

away. i will talk to an environmental activist about the lasting effects of this disaster. first, coming out, newly unsealed court filings revealed what fox news host really thought about donald trump's bogus -- election claims. much more of the katie phang show is up ahead. ghs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults. proven, full-spectrum relief for all bipolar 1 symptoms. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles or confusion which may mean a life-threatening reaction, or uncontrollable muscle movements

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the truth because it might cost them viewers and the company's bottom line. that is how fox news apparently felt, according to a newly unsealed court finding. even though the network was publicly pushing former president trump's election lies during an out of the 2020 election, primetime hosts like shawn hannity were saying they did not believe the narrative being peddled by trump allies like sydney powell and rudy giuliani. the court filings were part of a 1.6 billion dollar defamation lawsuit against fox news brought by dominion voting

systems, one of the largest manufacturers of voting equipment in the united states. the lawsuit takes issue, in part, with some of the things fox published. take a listen. >> the most important part of democracy is to do it correctly. most important question tonight, is did we in 2020? >> i am working on the part of the case which is demonstrating how many legal votes were cast. i am way beyond the margin that i need in pennsylvania or michigan. >> they have done it in every way imaginable, from having dead people though in massive numbers to absolutely fraudulently creating ballots that exists, only voting for biden. >> fox news has said that it stands by its election coverage. it's broadcast are protected by the first amendment. joining me now is glenn kershner, former prosecutor and msnbc news analyst, also the host of the justice matters

podcast. glenn, my friend, good to see you! typically, defamation cases against media companies are very tough to win. the evidence in dominion's favor is overwhelming. should fox have settled this case months ago? >> they probably should have, given the extraordinarily bad press they are receiving now as information about them behind the scenes communications with one another, host to host, or host to executive, become public. they are deeply damaging to foxes credibility, to the extent that they have any left. i predict that they will ultimately end up settling. katie, when we look at some of what has been revealed, i want to read just one of the exchanges between tucker carlson and laura abraham and talk about the implication. when tucker messages laura abraham and says, quote, sydney powell is lying by the way. i caught her. it is insane.

abraham responds, sydney is a complete nut. no one will work with her. ditto with rudy. and then tucker says, but our viewers believe it. they were peddling lines. they were intentionally peddling lies. katie, these were not lies about which toothpaste will make your teeth whiter, or which floor wax will make your floors more shiny, these were lies about whether the american peoples votes were stolen and their election rigged. it's like they were packing the case with gunpowder. using these lies as a vehicle to keep the viewership, you know, engaged. they were just waiting for donald trump to lie that gunpowder -- which he did, on january 6th. it erupted into violence. i think we need to challenge the federal government. this defamation suit is important. what is even more important is the federal government needs to step up and address these

intentional and reckless lies. i would argue are reasonably likely, if not intended to, incite imminent violence. this issue has got to be grabbed onto and shaken, and addressed! >> glenn, i'm glad you brought up the 16 connection. there is a myriad of investigation in cases that are floating out there in different systems. do you think there is a value for special counsel, jack smith, to look at these communications at fox? even if they are between tucker carlson and laura ingraham? do you think that there is a value of that to go to the state of mind of someone like donald trump who is trying to do the fake electors scheme. while he was trying to incite the insurrectionist to march on the capitol on january 6th. >> that is a great question, katie. should jack smith begin to dig into the implications of fox news, you know, riling up the trump base such that trump now

has a more willing, more ready group of insurrectionists, right? i think, here is the answer to that question. i think it is an abdication of the federal government's responsibility if they don't find the right vehicle, the right organization, to dig into these problems to try to protect the american people from these faux news organizations. not just innocently telling lies for entertainment purposes, they are telling the county lies that again, i contend are reasonably likely to incite imminent violence. indeed, they did incite imminent violence on january 6th. does jack smith have adequate predication, fancy term for enough evidence to begin investigating the impact that the fox news lies had on what happened on january 6th -- i sure hope he concludes that he does.

i know that the federal government is forever concerned about being criticized for trampling on first amendment rights. i think we have reached a point now where we can't just continue to turn a blind eye to flow news organizations. -- engaging in this kind of dangerous, reckless, speech. >> sorry to speak on you, glenn. i don't have a lot of time. i did want to ask you this question. you have been covering, you have been focusing on the proud boys for a long time. actually being in court for some of the trials. we have five defendants on trial for seditious conspiracy right now. the defense attorneys are saying donald trump is a defense witness in this case. he must be subpoenaed to come and testify. he is the one that, quote, unleashed the mob on january 6th. assuming trump would even show up, glenn, lawyerly or otherwise. what it really helped this defendants cases? >> no. not if he testified. i think it is unlikely he testified. he would probably plead the fifth. this is a usual example of one

constitutional rights collide. the proud boys, the defendants, have a six defendant -- to compel witness testimony in their favor. the witness, donald trump, absolutely has a fifth amendment right against self incrimination. when those two constitutional right collide, a federal judge -- i can promise you, he will say the proud boys cannot force donald trump to waive its fifth amendment rights against self incrimination. he will be excused. the judge will find ways to mitigate the damage by allowing some hearsay statements for ease of reference to comment evidence to support the proud boys defense, in my opinion. >> glenn kirschner, it is always critical to have you here. i know you share your insight and analysis. it is because justice matters. glenn kutcher my friend, thank you for being here. i appreciate you. >> coming up next, donald trump has his first official primary challenger for the gop 2024 presidential nomination. right after the break, mary trump joins me on nikki haley's

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on former president, donald trump. he faces his first official challenger in the gop primary. last week, former governor of south carolina, nikki haley, announced her candidacy. a bold move coming from trump's first united nations ambassador. hailey says she is pushing for a, quote, new generation of leaders. someone who is touting new, she cannot seem to differentiate herself from donald trump. many still believe that trump will be the eventual 2024 gop nominees. a new poll shows trump with a 42% lead with voters and the gop primary, followed by florida governor, ron desantis, and then nikki haley. with the list of contenders expected to grow, and his legal problems continuing to escalate, what can we expect from donald trump next? my next guest would know best.

joining me now is mary trump, host of the mary trump show podcast. author of too much and never enough, how my family created the world's most dangerous man. the niece of former president, donald trump. mary, i always say the needs of former president donald trump at the end, frankly, because the other stuff that you have done has been incredible. you do have some really telling inside a. let's start with nikki haley. interesting lee, nikki haley was the first republican to step into the line of fire by announcing her candidacy for the gop nomination. she says that there needs to be a new generation of leaders. she just cannot seem to differentiate herself from trump. is she just a sacrificial lamb at this point, until someone like, i don't know, rhonda santas officially stepped into the fray? >> yeah, katie, it is a little mystifying to understand what her run is about alas -- as is often the case, she's running for vice president. she needs to walk a very fine line, right? she cannot be too anti donald.

she has to tow the gop line. i think we are going to see a campaign that is replete live, republican athens. we have already seen this in her opening bid. racism, homophobia, and the and hire ignorance of the reality of america's past, and her unwillingness to grapple with that. i don't really think we are going to see much interesting or unique in her campaign, at all. i think she is also opening the door for other candidates, which would be precisely what donald wants. he knows the bigger the field the better off he is. >> mary, the dominion voting systems 1.6 million dollar lawsuit against fox news for defamation has revealed that even marquee hosts like tucker

carlsen and laura ingraham and fox news did not actually believe donald's big lie. do you think fox news viewers, the ones who are voting for donald trump, do you think they're ready to have the scales fall from their eyes finally? >> no. quite honestly, katie, i don't know that they are ever going to hear about what is actually going on with the dominion defamation case. why would they? we know that after this information came out, hosts like tucker carlsen were continuing to peddle the big lie. so, unfortunately, unless something significant happens -- and i believe glenn kirschner spoke about this earlier, unless the government is willing to take steps to protect the american people from the lies that are peddled from -- buy outfits like fox. we are going to continue to be in this very dangerous place where almost half of the

country is being lied to. being told that their rights are being taken away from them when, in fact, the opposite is true. >> yesterday, the michigan gop chose election denier and former secretary of state candidate, christina karamo, to be their state party chair. far-right extremists and trump loyalist, karamo made headlines for a wild and very bizarre claims about the excise-ism of demons and how abolition was a fraudulent theory. we laugh, we chuckle, but the reality is, mary, what is this telling you about the current state of the battle for our democracy? i mean, we saw trump fail with his primary candidates that he was pushing in the last midterms, you see somebody like this, a trump loyalist, she won the state party chair in the state of michigan >> it tells us that the fight is far from over. and democracy continues to hang in the balance. we can't let down our guard. which i think was the impulse

after president biden was, thankfully, elected in 2020. because look where we are now. although people who were there on january six have been indicted and convicted and sentenced, the people who were in charge of organizing and inciting the insurrection are running for president,, right. so there needs to be more push back as long as republicans feel that becoming more and more extreme is the only road to power, that is a road they're going to continue to go down. and that is going to make the situation much more precarious for the country as a whole. >> speaking of that road of extremism, and the promise of power at the end of it, i firmly believe that trump will be indicted to this year. by fani willis, the fulton county district attorney. i think it will be the first of many indictments to.

come my question for you is, how reasonable are fears of many americans about the potential for violence being incited by donald trump, should he be indicted. we saw how absolutely horrible january six was. >> first of, all i appreciate your optimism. i have to be honest, i have my dark days where i am not entirely sure the indictments are going to come. but if indeed they do, and i agree with you the first one probably will come out of georgia, hopefully many more shoes will drop. but, you know, in the meantime, we are in a situation where we are sort of in this state of suspended animation. and more and more people are continuing to be fooled by outlets like box. and think that something has been stolen from them. donald, of course, will use any opportunity to incite more

violence if he thinks it suits him. so we are not out of the woods,. yes i was quite heartened, i will say, that in the 2022 midterms, nothing happened. there was no appreciable violence, even though a lot of election deniers lost their bids. and what i also found interesting is that most election deniers, with the exception i think of kari lake, did not put up a fight. they accepted their loss and they moved on. which is to say, i think it is not as likely as i might have thought a couple of years ago, but we still need to be prepared for all eventualities. unfortunately. >> i think that's to your point we always have to have a high stake of vigilance because we cannot fall asleep at the switch. there is still under so much going on. the -- win yesterday really stunned me. i thought maybe we were turning a turner, but we will not subscribe to the naivete. and i appreciate you mary trump

joining us this morning to bring your incident analysis. thanks for being. here >> thanks, katie. >> and coming, up officials say the testing shows the water in an area are safe, but residents of east palestine, ohio, say animals are dying as much as 20 miles away from the site of the train derailment. after the break, i will talk with the vice president of the national wildlife federation about the lasting effects of this environmental disaster. nvironmental disaster. y office tell me about their frequent dry eyes, which may point to dry eye disease. millions of americans were estimated to have it. they also tell me they've tried artificial tears again and again, but the relief is temporary. xiidra can provide lasting relief. xiidra treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. don't use if allergic to xiidra. common side effects include eye irritation, discomfort or blurred vision when applied and unusual taste sensation. why wait? ask your eye doctor about a 90-day prescription for xiidra today. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? why wait? >> vo: driving around is how we get our baby to sleep, so when our windshield cracked, we trusted the experts.

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train filled with toxic chemicals derailed in a fiery crash, residents and east palestine, ohio, are still dealing with the aftermath. nbc's george police has more details. >> with the freedom to carry people in the nation's all over the country, drain still serve as a modern-day marvel. but this month and east palestine, ohio, residents of the perils of search progress on a train packed with hazardous materials to rail, sitting off a massive toxic spill. >> it is unnerving. still eerie to hear that trainers will come through. >> officials suspect a mechanical issue may have led to the derailment. >> we always look at the history of the car. we look at everything from the track to performance. >> it being carried by the tribune are also under scrutiny. -- when preet, burned produces

hydrogen chloride, which can cause life-threatening respiratory. issues in february, 63 days after the derailment, norfolk southern performed a controlled release of toxic fumes to prevent possible explosions. >> this is a matter of life and death. >> residents in northern ohio and pennsylvania ordered to evacuate immediately. >> he came up, and said evacuate, evacuate. that will get out. >> on february 8th, the evacuation order was lifted but some residents chose not to return, citing health concerns. days later, more uncertainty as the ohio department of natural resources said the spill killed some 3500 fish. despite epa assurances that it -- was. say >> something is going on at the fish are floating in the. crash >> the crash highlighted for many the danger running past their homes. >> this could happen again. what is on those trains? >> every year an estimated four and a half times of toxic chemicals are transported through the u.s. with upwards of 12,000 trains carrying hazardous materials from towns

and cities each day. accidents are rare, they last a room into the u.s. involving hazardous chemicals happened in 2005. >> in south carolina, a ninth person has been found dead after a train wreck released deadly chemical papers. >> some of the industry, like greg reagan, blames recent safety issues on quebec's across the work so force. >> there is an emphasis on speed, an emphasis on moving cargo as fast as possible with a few people as possible. >> among the issues highlighted, less time to inspect cars. regan says that down from two minutes to 30 and 45 seconds. experts say the ohio crash, well not deadly, shoots aruba is a wicked cold. >> they've largely forgotten what railroads. do some as it takes a bit to get the public to wake up and realize there's a lot of attention we need to pay for safety. >> the nations whales need to be remade safer. >> yes. they can only be made safe. or wish to really take this opportunity to try to identify not only what happens here, but

make sure to figure out how we can prevent the next one from happening. >> our thanks to georges elise for that report. meanwhile, lawsuits are stocking up against norfolk southern in response to the chemical train derailment. at least six class action lawsuits have been filed alleging negligence on the part of the company. and, now federal lawmakers are buckling down on state and local officials response. the senate environment public works committee is planning a hearing soon to address the health and safety concerns of the community. meanwhile, the man has now arrived on the scene to help with some of the issues addressed by ohio governor mike dewine. >> we have people who may not even have a primary doctor. we want to make sure they have a place to go. such a place where they can go to get help. >> but it has been two weeks since the derailment first raised concerns about pollution. state officials say the testing shows that the air on the water in town are safe, but that residents have reported severe symptoms.

>> my daughter has been nauseous with. headaches my husband has a headache since it happened. my biggest, with me, was i had burning of the nose and. eyes >> norfolk southern has not responded to the lawsuits. yes but company officials have promised to help aid in cleanup efforts, including removing contaminated soil into liquid. joining me now is mustafa, ali the executive vice president of the national wildlife federation. and former senior adviser and assistant associate administrator for environmental justice at the environmental protection agency. , mustafa good. morning thank you so much for joining us. this is a really important story. you wrote an op-ed about this disaster. what is your biggest concern about the derailment in east palestine? >> my biggest concern is making sure that there is real transparency in the information that is being shared. to make sure that residents there have the information they need to make the best decisions for themselves. i am also extremely concerned about the long term impacts of

these, because we have seen in the past that folks have said there is nothing to see or hear here. and that has not been true all the way back to 9/11, with our first responders. what happened in flint,, michigan, with folks talking about the impacts they were having in their lives? and knowing that once again there were something to worry about. they will cancel out down between new orleans and baton rouge, where folks have been dealing with these exposures and chemicals for decades. and people told them that what they were experiencing was not really happening. and then, in all those cases we found out that what residents were sharing was true. >> mostafa, people rely on regulations. laws to protect them. during the trump administration, though, standards for electronically-controlled amount of braking systems carrying hazardous inflammable materials, those were relaxed and weekends. environmental groups are now calling for secretary of transportation pete buttigieg

to restore obama era rules to better protect our community. it's in your opinion, are we doing enough to ensure rail safety? especially with the transport of hazardous materials such as cancer causing vinyl chloride, which was on this particular train? >> we're mostly not doing enough. there is an opportunity to actually enhance that. that's why people's voices are so important. making sure that you are pushing your elected officials to do the right thing. yes, president trump rescinded and rolled back those rules that could have most definitely helped to protect this community. but he also wrote back the chemical disaster rule. so, there is a connection that exist in all these spaces. we allow folks to be exposed to these types of chemicals. we have to worry about the cumulative and synergistic effect as well, that can have devastating impacts on their bodies. but it goes back to regulations. regulations are there to help to protect people. regulations are there to help -- so we don't have these disasters, and to minimize the possibility of it happening.

>> they are going to be investigations, hopefully with a level of transparency that you rightly are advocating for. but should we be concerned that the train company at issue here, norfolk, southern is valued at 53 billion dollars as of friday? we create a fund for the ohio train derailments that is only $1 million. i know they are giving some of their money, mustafa. but there's been little reporting on a second to train derailment this time, near detroit. again involving norfolk. southern and that was just a few days, ago this past thursday. the long term financial impact on these residence is potentially incalculable. >> without a doubt. 1 million dollar is just a drop in the bucket. and what folks are going to need. norfolk southern used to set step up and do the right things. james baldwin once said, i can't believe what you say because i see what you do. to have two of these types of incidents happening in such a short time, and then we look at into a talent for the last set

of years, we continue to have these derailments. we have these leaking that happen, with -- which means that norfolk southern must do so much better. to make sure that they are not only rebuilding confidence, they are making the community hole. >> when things, do yuma stuff, allie for joining us this morning. there's gonna be more developments, and as they come and welcome you to come back and tell us what accountability is going to look like for all of these agencies. >> thank you. >> and coming, up tonight at 10 pm eastern, msnbc's films presents, when truth is truth. the rudy giuliani story. a new four part series four times studios, exploring the former prosecutors and mayor's rise to power, fall from grace, and how little he changed. between the director of this riveting documentary joins me now. whenever heartburn strikes, get fast relief with tums. its time to love food back.

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occur quotes. the armorer who, said that a new documentary airing tonight on msnbc is here to remind. you the serious reminds you of the career of one of the most polarizing political figures in modern history. rudy giuliani. from his days as a prosecutor, to his tenure as new york city mayor, and finally to his dark path in trump's orbit. >>. ,. it is seen as an anchor for social, life political life, family. life all contingencies. and rudy giuliani was very much -- he made the most about. it >> i mean to make what people feel safe here. they believe in a form of leadership where one white man's the boss. >> i want to introduce rudy giuliani and --

>> you set the priority so we can have a very close working relationship. >> joining me now on set is rebecca get, let's director of when truth isn't true truth, the rudy giuliani. story and executive producer of time studio. rebecca, it is a pleasure to have you here. before we start the, interview i want to mention this because i think it is important as a female director. and filmmaker. you literally were pregnant, and gave birth, i believe, so this is a labor of love. so why this topic? why this particular topic for a documentary? >> thank you for having me on and saying. that that means a lot. you know, as a film maker and a part of times, studios what we try to do is really challenged the conventional thinking of a story. and with rudy, who is the embodiment of political polarization, as you just said, nobody feels neutral about him. everybody has a spirit very big

feelings. and, so i want to dig deep into a topic. and somebody who's been in the political world for 50 years. as much as this is about rudy giuliani, it is also a look at our american democratic system, and how we all got here. >> the phrase fall from grace is used often for rudy giuliani. there is a lion isaih shun of him when he was the mayor. 9/11 et cetera. now we look at him and he's frankly the bout of many jokes. isn't a massive misconception that they have this proverbial fall from grace for 40 giuliani? >> we spoke to so many new yorkers. namely jordan reed, who i admire so much. and they, said as new yorkers we always know this route. and we really dug into that. so, if you ask a new yorker in the 90s when rudy was supposedly taking down crime, i would challenge who was he

helping? because we spoke to many people in the black and brown communities who were still reeling from their policies of stop-and-frisk. with the over populations of rikers island. so i think it is really a perception. who you ask really depends on what view of rudy giuliani will get. >> i am glad you said who you ask. because you mentioned julia reed. you also spoke to bill de blasio. and jamie. raskin what was a calculus that went into the thought process of deciding who you thought would be accurate, historians and people that could talk about this evolution of rudy giuliani? >> i think it is important in a story like this, when you think you know the story, to really get people that are deeply inside. and that means on all of the different sides. we did have his, son andrew giuliani, willie talk through the human aspect of -- which i think is important. but as you mentioned, we also have these great political

heavy hitters. as well as parents of firefighters who perished in 9/11. so this is a full four hour long look this whole person. this multi dimensional figure. who sort of looms in our orbit all the time. >> robert is a great word because i think that whether you agree or disagree with rudy and his legacy does not a very pretty one as we sit here today in 2023. again, sweating with the diuretic down the face and mopping the brow. the rambling rudy that we know. is it fair to say that through the course of you making this documentary you have learned that rudy giuliani was polluted by the power of donald trump? it is the evil, and everything does negative about donald trump? will you do you think he was like a perfect compliment to donald trump? >> i really believe, and we argue, that rudy has always

been as much of this calculated demagogue. >> but a strong language. >> what reverend sharpton. one of the reasons we call this film truth is not truth is because, when he said that on meet the press, it broke this whole thing open. because on the surface it is a dangerous term, but if you look into the context, it is rudy's playbook, and the embodiment of a phrase. if we cannot agree on the certain side of facts, we are in danger of democracy crumbling. and rudy is at the center of that. i watched the last couple segments he did. he is in everything. right? so i think to understand the rudy that is right now, you really need to look back and look where he came from. >> and tell the viewers, kind of, what they can expect through this four-part documentary. >> i think it is an emotional rollercoaster. we think overdose this one no caricature. and he is not.

he did stand up there on 9/11 and give people what they needed. and we should not necessarily take that away from him. but i don't think it is the full story. >> i am going to have to wrap, sadly, rebecca. but there is that old phrase, you are only as good as your last case. you are only as good as your last win. and i think that for rudy giuliani, his last winds have all been losses, frankly. and everything he is down to contribute to the battle for democracy, on the wrong side of history, may end up being his lasting legacy. or back again, lots we are also excited to see this documentary. i want to thank you for being here, i think all of you for joining me this. morning i'll be back next saturday at 8 am eastern right here on msnbc. stay tuned. the sunday, show with jonathan capehart, is coming up right now. g up right now. in just a few clicks. and we'll come to you with a replacement you can trust. >> man: looks great. >> tech: that's service on your time. schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ ♪♪

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