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it's definitely worth trying. it is an amazing product. >> a very good day to all of you from nbc news here in los angeles. welcome, everyone, to alex witt reports. developing this hour, the u.s. is facing rising tensions with china on a number of friends as president biden says he wants to sit and speak with president xi jinping. -- remain 15 days after that u.s. military shoot down of the chinese spy balloon. this is off the carolina coast after turning the country. now, concerns of a brand new accusations, china maybe supplying russia or may supply russia in the future with lethal aid in its war against ukraine. earlier today, secretary of state, anthony blinken, stressed to nbc news the

delicacy of navigating through maintaining a good relationship. >> this is obviously among the most consequential but also complex relationships that we have. we have a strong interest in trying to manage the relationship responsibly and make sure, to the best of our ability, the competition doesn't fear into conflict or into cold war. i don't think that is an interest. >> president biden will be heading to poland tomorrow as he prepares to mark the one year anniversary of russia invading ukraine. earlier today, and as the spokesperson, john kirby, told msnbc what we can expect from the presidents trip. >> the president is going to deliver a set of remarks in warsaw, communicating how important it is for the world to stay united in supporting ukraine, as this war sadly hudson to a second here. >> a new reaction from nikki haley after jumping into the republican presidential race. the former south carolina governor became the first person to challenge trump in

what was expected to be a crowded primary race. earlier today, she heard on willing to take on trump and passed on how she plans to beat him. >> you know, i don't focus on president trump. it's amazing that the media wants to talk about that. >> you will have to [inaudible] you will have to focus on him, desantis, anyone quills who gets in, you will have to get through that field. >> my announcement was to a few thousand people in south carolina. i had a patrimonial hampshire, not one person asked me about president trump. everybody wanted to talk about biden. >> reaction to that growing gop about, a later on this hour. first, we have two reports on a number of new developments from the white house to ukraine. welcome to both. we're gonna be here than bases monica alba at the white house. monica, the president says he wants to speak with the chinese president. what are we learning today about how he plans to approach that conversation? >> yeah, that is president biden's desire, alex. we understand that whenever

these calls come together, it takes a little bit of time. so, we know this is a negotiation. it's ongoing between the two nations. i can tell you that nothing is set, at least right now, for any formal kind of conversation with changing paying, the president of china. we know it was last november when president biden, on the sidelines of the g20 in bali had an extensive bilateral meeting face to face with president xi. so, since then, the commitment to dialogue and open communications was essential. but those tensions really escalated after we saw that chinese spy balloon travel across the united states before being shot down by the u.s. military on president biden's orders. so, of course, that has changed the calculation and the tenor for these conversations. we are now learning through some conversations last night between the u.s. secretary of state, anthony blinken, and his chinese counterpart, that was the first face-to-face meeting between these kinds of official sons all of this unfolded. remember, secretary blinken was

supposed to be heading to china for a very high stakes visit that was ultimately postponed because of this issue over the surveillance balloon. we now know that secretary blinken received no apology from the chinese officials in terms of this balloon. they maintain that it was an innocuous weather balloon, something the u.s., of course, says is not the case. so, that is what leads us to this big question about how the relationship is going to be managed going forward. one, this white house is consistently saying should be about strategic competition and that they don't seek conflict. here's a little bit more from national security council spokesman, john kirby, on how that will play out in the coming days. >> the president believes that this is the most consequential bilateral relationship in the world. and that, as responsible powers, the world expects us to treat it that way. the president said he'd be willing to talk to president xi in the future. and he will. >> and justin alice feud's or so, alex, remember that the chinese also accused the united

states of flying balloons over chinese airspace, something the united states has denied, saying that that has never occurred, so, this war of words continues. again, this is a relationship that is critical, very important, and one that, again, they want to keep a dialogue going, even though there are clearly plenty of disagreements, not just on this issue of the chinese surveillance balloon, but plenty of other worldwide challenges as, well alex. >> yeah, as you say, critical, that is the optimum word. thank you so much, monica alba from the white house. let's go now to the warren ukraine. some new revelations that the u.s. believes china could be preparing to provide military aid to russia. on saturday, at a security conference in germany, secretary of state antony blinken warning beijing of consequences if it moves to supply support to the invasion. joining me now is nbc's erin mclaughlin joining us from kyiv. erin, let's get to the very latest on the meetings and the update from the war there that rages on behind you. >> hey, alex.

well, in that meeting that you were just talking about, that happened on the silence of munich security conference between secretary of state, anthony blinken, and his chinese counterpart. blinken warning of consequences should china provide lethal aid to russia in its war on ukraine as the bus is alleging that china is currently considering. u.s. also alleges that china is providing nonlethal aid to russia, sources tell us that that could be in the form of things like uniforms and body armor. secretary blinken making it clear that china cannot have it both ways. take a listen. >> china's trying to have it both ways. publicly, they present themselves as a country striving for peace in ukraine. but privately, as i said, we've seen already over these past months the provision of non

lethal assistance that does go directly to aiding and abetting russia's war effort. and some further information that we're sharing today and that i think will be out there soon, it indicates that they are strongly considering providing lethal assistance to russia. >> now, no further details on what the u.s. means by that lethal assistance. i was speaking to a ukrainian official for his take on the support there at the munich security conference. he said that he was very pleased with that show of support from ukraine's allies. he said he heard from ally after allies, saying that they will support ukraine until the end. the big question in his mind, and many ukrainians minds as what the allies mean when they say they're going to support ukraine to the end? what is the and in the eyes of the western world?

this as war continues to rage on in the east. there is that much vaunted russian offensive. although, that's a crane official telling me that at this point are unclear whether russia has enough manpower, whether russia has enough equipment there in the east to wage a serious offensive. he said that that's completely unclear at this point, alex. >> yeah, well, we need the answers, that's for sure. thank, you erin mclaughlin. we're gonna talk about the upcoming anniversary and what america needs to do to help ukraine with pennsylvania congressman, natalie dean, that is coming your way in just a few minutes after the next break. in the meantime, right now, former president jimmy carter is receiving hospice care at his home in georgia. the carter foundation announcing saturday that after a series of short hospital stays, the 98 year old has decided to forgo any further medical treatment. joining me now from the former president carter hometown of planes, georgia, nbc's

priscilla thompson. priscilla, welcome, i know that you spoke with some members of president carter's church there. and you're gonna share some of the sentiments. first, what do we know about the former president's condition? >> yeah, so, we know that former president carter is at home. he is surrounded by family. as around the country, and certainly here in this community, people are praying for the former president. >> americas 39th president, at home, and surrounded by loved ones. including his wife of seven decades, rosalynn carter. the carter center announcing saturday the former president is now opting for hospice care. instead of receiving additional medical intervention. carter's grandson, writing on twitter, the carters art piece and always in their home is full of love. carter, who tuned 90 in october, a u.s. naval academy graduate, studied nuclear physics and worked in the nuclear submarine program. but his father's death brought him back home, where he ran the

family peanut farm. that is until he got into politics, first as a georgia state senator. then governor. >> i'm jimmy carter, i solemnly swear. >> finally, the white house itself. >> my name is jimmy carter, i am running for president. >> after crisis overseas and the troubled economy, his presidency ended after just one term. >> when i left the white house, i did not know what i was trying to do. >> after moving out of the white house in 1981, the former democratic president, a man of deep and enduring faith, returned to planes, where he taught sunday school through the years. in 1982, he founded the carter center. he remained committed to statesmanship overseas. promoting peace, democracy, and affordable housing. spending a week of each year building homes for habitat for humanity. in his 80s, carter was diagnosed with melanoma. that spread to his liver and brain. he defy the odds with an

experimental drug, through it all, maintaining his perspective on the fragility of life. >> i have had a wonderful life, i have thousands of friends and i have had an exciting, adventurous, and gratifying existence. >> and we just left president carter's church as service was letting out. during the service, there was a prayer for president carter and his family. that they be lifted up in this moment. we also know that the bible study classes, some of which he taught for so many years, it made cards for him that are expected to be delivered to him today. and everyone that we spoke to referred to him as mr. jimmy. and talked about how much they love him and how they have heavy hearts, that this is a difficult time, but also that they believe he is going to be out of pain when this is all over, that he'll be able to meet his maker. so much love for him there,

everyone saying their message to him today is just how much they love him and how much he means in this community. alex? >> yeah, i love hearing how much this church comedian the community of planes georgia loves him. that's what makes sense for so many many americans who feel the same way. thank, you priscilla, for that. new outrage in ohio over that scene at a toxic train derailment. residents demanding answers as officials monitor air, water, and soil quality, so, here's a bit of what consumer advocate, aaron told me about the situation yesterday. n to>> nobody is there for these people. i feel terrible. i feel like they are sitting in boiling water. they made these answers, we need, and our agencies, to give them assurance they're safe. we're not getting that information to conclude for certain. >> well, back with me and east palestine, ohio, with nbc news, is george. , so george, another welcome to

you. what are you hearing from officials and activists, in fact, about the danger to the environment and public health? >> yeah, that's right, alex, the outrage continues to grow here. more than two weeks after the derailment, a lot of people are taking it upon themselves to make sure this community is being helped out. people here handing out food, hounding out water to make sure the residents of east palestine feel safe. we know that there are still ongoing air and water testing and the results continue to show, at least what officials are releasing, that the air and water are safe, as you can imagine, because of how everything has unfolded, a lot of residents are not buying. a lot of residents tommy, look, i'm still waiting for my whitewater to be tested. until i feel comfortable, i'm going to stick to drinking bottled water. now, to that, the ceo of the train company was here yesterday, alex shaw, he met with a few community leaders, a few firefighters. didn't meet with a large group of community members here, which is really frustrating to a lot of people here who are

expecting a chance to ask him a lot of questions. i do want to play for you some sound from some of the residents we've been hearing over the last couple of days. >> why are people still getting sore throats and, you know, their eyes are burning? >> it doesn't smell safe. i'm taking my things, i'm out of here. everyone else around here can call their own shots. >> don't tell me it's a, if something is going on. >> i feel about 80% safe. >> i've heard they've got two dogs that actually drink out of there and died. yeah, i have headaches. i mean, the other night, when i was coming home from work, i was coming down through campbellton, i could smell it clear down there. >> you can hear that frustration in these residents voices. to that, we do know that health and human services, and partnership with the state are about to open a clinic in the coming days to hopefully address some of those health concerns we. also know that fema's here on the ground. this is after two weeks, helping to provide some assistance to the residents. the residents here say they need so much more.

alex? >> it's so clear they do. it is absolutely remarkable when you listen to them, what their experience is, first person experiences. i thank you very much, george, for sharing that. in the meantime, congressman natalie dean of pennsylvania where join me next. she's gonna talk about the u.s. and ukraine, eight years since that war began. we're also gonna get some important perspective on senator john fetterman's bottomless depression. ttomless depression. written by those who work it. like the upshaws. the nelsons. and the caggianos. run with us and start telling your story. ♪♪ what will you do? will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. i was thinking, i should probably set up that 90 day refill. walgreens is all about making life easier.

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relations have never been more -- attention is very high right now, i should say. i think the spy balloon was so embarrassing. >> the administration does have a shift it needs to take, and taking all of this all more seriously. being more forward, also, with the american public -- what we are facing with espionage plans. >> fresh criticism there from

house republicans as tensions remain over the chinese spy balloon shot down by u.s. the carolina coast two weeks ago. secretary of state anthony blinken met with china's top diplomat this weekend, the flight of that spy balloon across the u.s. must never happen again, he warned. joining me now is pennsylvania congressman natalie dean, a democratic member of the house foreign affairs and judiciary committee. a good friend to us. nice to see you again. what do you make of the criticism from your house republican colleagues? are their frustrations warranted? are they not giving enough credit to the administration's actions? isn't it possible intelligence learned some more about the balloon by letting it fly longer and monitoring it further? >> that to be with you, alex, today. i do want to say, god bless president jimmy carter. decades of his spirit of faith and service to others. i hope his family is feeling embraced by the love of the

entire country. the best of him. thanks for having me on. regarding the chinese balloon, we've had multiple briefings on it, as well as the other objects not identified that were shot down. i think it is fair to say the administration takes this extremely seriously. we all know that. secretary blinken has talked about it, the president has talked about it, and to your point, one of the things i think is very clear is monitoring the balloon as it went across the country, it will be debated whether that was appropriate or not. and they were very concerned about collateral damage, the size of this thing, the payload on this thing, extraordinarily heavy. and so, the ability to monitor it as it went across the country and then to take it out and collect the data, the black box and the payload, whatever evidence they can get, i think will be extraordinarily valuable to us. >> point well taken there.

let's talk about the new concerns over those brand-new accusations china may be supplying or may future supply russia with lethal aid in its war against ukraine. secretary of state anthony blinken said he made a very clear to china's top diplomat this would have pretty serious consequences. like what? what do you think those serious consequences could look like? can you imagine china allied with with russia like this? >> i have to tell you i'm a member of the foreign affairs committee. we all take this very seriously and i will not get ahead of this administration and the diplomatic efforts of the secretary. it would certainly complicate an already very tense and complicated relationship between china and the united states. i hope we use our diplomatic tools and our legislative tools we do influence to the good, warning china that it should never become militarily involved. i have been thinking so much

about the one year anniversary of the reincarnation of ukraine by russia this past year of such lethality, such criminal behavior by president putin. we are the indispensable nation in this and i have been very proud of our administration and our entire country for surrounding ukraine and saying, we will lift you up until you are successful. i don't want anything to interfere with the. china should not be playing militarily in this conflict at all. >> let's get to another pretty hefty topic from this week. it's gun reform, something president biden was once again calling on congress to act now on, saying it is enough. following the shooting in rural mississippi that left six dead, i know you have been very vocal on this issue for quite some time. in fact, let's give our viewers a look at part of the recent floor speech you gave. here it is. >> not even a month into this new year and i'm already on the floor once again begging the

same question. what will it take to stop the relentless pace of mass shootings? regardless of our politics, we cannot continue to live and die this way. we must do more. >> that speech was just a few weeks ago, following multiple mass shootings in california. now this week, a major deadly shooting in michigan state university, the one i mentioned in mississippi. these tragedies do not stop. are your colleagues on the other side of the aisle being moved at all to come together and get something done on behalf of the american people? >> you know what, no one is safe, alex, from the threat of gun violence in this country. i hope my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are persuaded that we must do more. when you have more mass shootings than days in the year, something is terribly wrong. we heard the students at michigan state pleading for us to take greater action. i want to reflect on one thing

we did do. june of last year, we passed and the president signed the sacred communities act. that had some bipartisan support, not enough. i can't wait until we see the implementation of these resources to intervene in violence in communities, to intervene in straw purchases, to check back checks of those under 21 in a greater way. i can't wait to see the numbers go in the correct direction. but that's not enough. it's the first time in 30 years congress has done something. but everyone, to a person, gun owners and non gun owners, i saying we have to do something to end this scourge of gun violence. you are absolutely right. i've cared about this my entire adult life. i know every single one of us is not safe until every single one of us is safe and government has congress specifically has an important role to play. >> keep on keeping on, do not let up on that when. >> i won't give up.

>> let me ask you about your colleague. pennsylvania senator john fetterman who suffered that stroke during the campaign last year has checked himself into the hospital for clinical depression this week. what's your reaction to that? what's your message to pennsylvanians? >> i guess i'm going to be on a sunday, godless john fetterman and his entire family. i know and am a friend of senator fetterman. i am so proud of him for his run, for the senate, for his belief in public service, and for his victory following a very serious stroke. but i'm proud are still that he sought the help and is seeking the help he needs. too often in this country, we stigmatize mental health. mental health is important to every single one of us, millions of americans struggle with mental health, struggle with depression. i'm extremely proud of him. i hope he gets extraordinarily good care. as he has argued on the campaign trail, while he has had very good care, we need to

make sure that this same level of quality care is available to all americans. speedy recovery, take care, john. i have been texting him and sending my love and prayers. >> well, listen, it takes a lot of courage to do it on a private level, let alone on this kind of public level. lots of courage and i echo your sentiments. take care and get well soon. thank you so much, but good to see you on a sunday. we will do it again soon. coming up next, lots of questions about 2024. is nikki haley someone who could defeat president biden? is biden the only one who could defeat trump? and there are some democrats who just don't want to see biden run again. the one and only jonathan alter will give me his thoughts on all this, next. all this, next

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think it's in the best interest of the country to have an 82 year old start a second term, but because they fear the potential alternative. the nomination of kamala harris in the election of donald trump. joining me now is msnbc analyst, jonathan alter, writer of the substack newsletter -- this is going to get interesting. in part because last month you wrote that column making a case against biden running in 2024 so as you are hearing these concerns among democrats about alternate candidates not being able to successfully beat trump, have you changed your mind, is biden the only democrat who can beat trump? >> i don't think so. i think basically any democrat can beat donald trump. the question is whether joe biden or other democrats can beat rhonda scientists, who has raised a lot of money, that doesn't mean he's necessarily going to be the republican

nominee, but he's got a very good chance. i think democrats have to look at what a biden desantis matchup might look like. that would be generationally unfortunate for democrats. that's a bad matchup for democrats. they need to worry about that. the problem with this political piece that you just quoted, alex, is that a lot of democrats are wrongly assuming that if joe biden does not run, that kamala harris will be the democratic nominee. they worry about her prospects in a general election. i don't get that. she would have to run in primaries, she's not popular with voters, and she would likely lose the nomination to somebody else. i think there is even a significant number of african american voters who would not vote for kamala harris any primary because they want to go

to a winner. they are very pragmatic, like a lot of democrats nowadays. they want a winner. this assumption that if biden does not run, the democrats will be saddled with kamala harris, seems to me to be wrong. it's an assumption people are making without really thinking through, that's what primaries are for. >> look, i've spoken with don calloway, i know you know him, he's a big democratic guy. he would strongly argue against what you are saying regarding kamala harris. >> he would say that she will be the nominee, that biden doesn't run? >> not necessarily that she would be, but that she deserves to be the nominee, that she's qualified, she's in the traditional position of being a vice president. as you well know, i don't have to school you on this, the launching point for a nomination for the presidency we. she deserves it, basically -- >> there are a number of

examples of vice presidents who have done poorly in primaries. when you hear a party leader say something like that, i really have to question it. this is what primaries are about. for her to get the democratic nomination, she would have to do extremely well in debates, she would have to prove herself to be a likable candidate, and she would have to prove herself popular across a broad swath of the democratic party. it's possible that she could do that, but i don't think it's likely. i think if biden did not run, another democrat, whether gretchen whitmer or somebody else, would be much more likely to be a democratic nominee than kamala harris. this assumption that they are saddled with harris, i think it's erroneous. >> can i ask how much pushback you've gotten being the democratic stalwart that you are? how much flak have you gotten for what you wrote? >> to tell you the truth, i've heard from a number of people, including very well-known

people inside the democratic party in support of what i wrote. i've had very little criticism. people understand, privately, that if trump is not the nominee on the republican side and they nominate a younger candidate, the democrats could lose the white house. and there might not be enough time to find out whether trump will be the opponents are not. there is a lot of worry inside the democratic party about nominating in 82-year-old president who everybody admire's, all democrats think he's been a good president. but that doesn't mean he should be president when he is 86 years old, which how old he would be at the end of the second term. i think most democrats, two thirds of democrats, alex, don't want him to run again. that's his his own party. that's not even including

independents. when two thirds of your party doesn't want you to run, all i was trying to do is open a debate about whether that was the best way forward for democrats. >> let's face it, that huge issue is not one that is negotiable, shall we say. let me ask you very quickly, given the nikki haley adele announced her candidacy. she claims democrats are afraid of her running. are any democrats afraid of nikki haley running for president? >> democrats, like most observers have politics, i don't think she's likely to get the republican nomination. were she to get the nomination, she would be a very serious threat to democrats. she plays a little bit more moderate, even though she is quite conservative, she's positive, she's not nasty. she would have it appeal among independent voters. i just don't think she's likely to get the republican nomination. but democrats should be very worried about a haley biden matchup.

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china about the spy balloon, but the white house reiterating its commitment to maintaining diplomatic relations. >> we've been very clear about our view of this egregious violation of our territorial sovereignty. we acted on that. but that doesn't mean they're relationship with china is less important. in fact, right now, those lines of communication, as i said, are more important. >> joining me now is nancy youssef, national security correspondent for the wall street journal, and mark, msnbc national security and intelligence officer, our other analyst, a cia officer and author of clarity in crisis, leadership nations from the cia. welcome to you both. mark, based on everything that has transpired over the last several weeks, give us a bigger picture when it comes to chinese espionage, how extensive is it over the u.s.? >> i think china is absolutely the top priority for the united states counter intelligence,

the fbi director chris wray said the fbi -- investigation every 12 hours. over 2000 investigations in place. the chinese are doing everything from stealing our trade secrets and intellectual property rights. if you remember into -- 2015, there was a heck of over 20 million personal records of u.s. government employees. to top it off, of course, we now see from the balloon incident that there is an extensive surveillance effort, not only by chinese balloons but also chinese satellites. anything over the last two weeks on this balloon incident would demonstrate to the american people that china is really the long term facing threat. that is the biggest threat to the united states today. if anything good comes out of this, it's good that we're talking about -- china is the main threat to the u.s. over the next decade plus to come. >> when you say every 12 hours counter intelligence is

initiated, is that exclusively for china? >> yeah, that's right. and that means there are chinese trying to recruit individuals in the united states to steal something that they need, whether it's recruiting u.s. government employees, going after u.s. businesses, technologies but sector. there is a mass effort by the chinese to do this. i participated in a project at the atlantic council on what we call hybrid warfare and that is anything that will get -- the consensus there is that china has been doing this. china is at war with us, it's particularly in the intelligence here and they have been four years. this is a really good wake up call for the american people. u.s. national security knows this and we've made that pivot to asia. and now it's clear for americans to see what's really happening. >> okay. how much spying is the u.s. doing on china? >> i knew that question was coming. of course, espionage is the second oldest profession. we spy on china just as much. that's what adversaries do.

i think one of the things i'm sure my old colleagues in the intelligence community are being very careful not because china would like nothing more to catch us with our hand in the cookie jar -- was a case of us catching china in a pretty brazen act. there will be -- doing the same to us. at the end of the day, we need to find out that intentions of our adversaries so we do very much the same thing to china, no doubt. >> okay. in your new article, nancy, you report panna cotta fischel's are planning to visit taiwan. what's the purpose of this trip? how is china reacting to? he also right it's likely to be seen as provocative. is this just the u.s. ending some sort of message or is it a strategic move? >> i think it is both. remember that we see increase u.s. investment by the united states in taiwan's defenses, we've seen a small but growing number of ground troops going

to taiwan. what i think you are now seeing 's defense officials who feel responsibility to go and see how it's investment in taiwan's defenses are shipping out on the ground. u.s. officials are doing this given the tensions we've been speaking about today, they will say because we have a right to go. there is no reason for us not to go. while it could be seen as provocative, i think what you are seeing the u.s. do is try to find that fine line between helping bolster taiwan's defenses but not so much as to anger or provoke china. and so, we've seen in the small incremental steps in u.s. investment in taiwanese defenses. we've seen more visits to taipei by u.s. officials. i think the administration is trying to find the fine line between helping taiwan without escalating tensions. i think this visit is one sign of that. >> here's the question. does that kind of a move, the u.s. going to taiwan, does that

anger china? do we care? >> it's an interesting question because i think it depends on the official. the timing of the visit, the length of the visit. the last time you saw a chinese very angry was during former speaker pelosi's visit. that led to large scale military exercises afterwards. we have not seen that level the reaction from visits at this sort of level of the administration. i think it's often the person going, how they see that person, how they see the visit. there was nothing indicating this visit by the top defense official in china, michael chase, will lead to that level of escalation. but it's hard to know where the line is. is it a certain number of visits in a period of time? is it the type of official that comes in with a say during that visit, what they say leading up to it? for example, we've heard speaker mccarthy, the new speaker of the house, so he wants to visit. china said that would not be welcome. they have signals of their

levels of frustration depending on the person. we have not heard anything on this visit yet. >> given the sensitivity of what is going -- we will be seeing you both again soon. thank you. he went from americas mirror to a trump or with a tarnished legacy. the unraveling of rudy giuliani, next. ss get a payroll tax refund, even if you got ppp and it only takes eight minutes to qualify. i went on their website, uploaded everything, and i was blown away by what they could do. getrefunds.com has helped businesses get over a billion dollars and we can help your business too. qualify your business for a big refund in eight minutes. go to getrefunds.com to get started. powered by innovation refunds.

age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv >> premiering tonight on msnbc, the first episode of a new four part series exploring rudy giuliani's rise to power and fall from grace. when the truth is in truth, the rudy giuliani story with an unvarnished look at the complicated and controversial political figure. >> if you are surprised by the decline and fall of rudy giuliani, you have not been paying attention. >> that was always his approach. if i got to tell someone, i'm going to do it, that has been there from the get-go. >> he used -- antisemitic. >> i actually found facts that are true.

truth isn't truth. >> joining me now is the director of the documentary, rebecca, also an executive producer at time. rebecca, big welcome. let's recall when giuliani first entered public life as a federal prosecutor in new york. people were describing him with words like moral crusader, uncomfortable, a straight arrow, someone who we know took on the mob and wall street. who is that rudy giuliani you discovered in the many months you spent on this project? >> thanks for having me. i loved that side by side you just showed because i think that is really indicative of what we tried to do. sure, really giuliani was a crusader. he did take on the mob. he did take on crime in new york. there is more to every story. what we were able to do in this four part series was delicately force people to intrinsically look at who rudy giuliani was. for example, almost every one

of those mob indictments was overturned. what is one step deeper? >> that's interesting. let's talk further about mayor giuliani, the mayor of city hall, also crowned -- the we another quick look at the documentary. here is a clip. >> you've lost any ability to control the people that come into the united states. >> that's the reagan administration's opinion on immigration policy as expressed by a associate attorney general, rudy giuliani. he says reagan's policy of detention and interdiction of haitian refugees has been a deterrence to new arrivals. >> -- any one of them can easily leave and go back to haiti. >> i think he has possessed with the anger of the exiled. i think his family ran away from black people from brooklyn. >> compare that with the giuliani we know today as donald trump's lawyer and a big member of his inner circle. >> pre-9/11, rudy giuliani

gives a lot of context into rudy giuliani's today, not necessarily in a very positive light. a lot of those early beings of rudy, such as race baiting, misinformation, disinformation were very clear in his mayoral days. >> let me ask you about what happens, since you brought up 9/11. that's when he was dubbed america's mayor. is that something that in the aftermath, we've seen the downward spiral since then, was he worthy of that title, that day, that period in time? >> i don't think we can ever take away from rudy giuliani that we needed a steady figure, and he was there. he was in the streets, he was at firefighters funerals, he was the one that was a very calming presence for us when

others weren't or could not. i think that's part of the really fascinating part of the giuliani story, or saga. we saw this glimpse of what could be. he returned to what he originally was post 9/11. >> should we not be surprised by the trump -- that rudy giuliani we saw associated with the trump years? did we have hints earlier in his public life? >> unfortunately, i think we did have hints. specifically about the race baiting. when we looked at david duncan's mayoral races both times, that's the rudy giuliani that we know today. our team did an incredible job turning over these pieces of information that might have stayed buried for a very long time. we get these glimpses of giuliani that people have not

seen. i think it's a much more complex and while sometimes sinister ride than we would expect. >> everybody, tonight on msnbc at 10 pm. rebecca, thank you so much. good luck with all this. we appreciate you. that will do it for me on this edition of alex witt reports. i will see you next saturday at noon eastern from new york. quick happy birthday to my beautiful mother. meantime, my equally beautiful friend, yasmin vossoughian, continues our coverage. create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. overactive bladder, or oab, can change your world. like going hiking, just to hike to the bathroom. reaching for the bar, just to reach for pads. waiting for the sunset, just to wait for the stall.

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