hello, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york, 11:00 p.m. here in kyiv, ukraine. i'm ali velshi in for my friend nicolle wallace. president biden made a bid to bolster the coalition that came together a year ago in the wake of russia's full-scale invasion of ukraine, which has so far defied expectations, staying united after a year of brutal fighting with no end in sight.

speaking in poland a former eastern bloc country that's no stranger to russian aggression, biden started off by saying that the war has so far defied two big expectations. one, that kyiv would fall within days, and two, that the western alliance would splinter as the war dragged on. watch. >> one year ago the world was bracing for the fall of kyiv. well, i can report kyiv stands strong. kyiv stands proud. it stands tall. and most important it stands free. when russia invaded it wasn't just ukraine being tested, the whole world faced a test for the ages. europe was being tested. america was being tested. nato was being tested. all democracies are being tested.

the questions we faced were simple as they were profound. would we be strong if we looked the other, would we be weak? all of our allies would be united or divided? one year later we know the answer. we did respond, we would be strong, we would be united, and the world would not look the other way. >> president biden also made it clear that this war in ukraine was also nato's war, that the stakes for the west remain incredibly high. >> over the past year the united states has come together with our allies and partners in an extraordinary coalition to stand against russian aggression, but the work in front of us is not just what we're against but what

we're for. what kind of world do we want to build? >> just hours before president biden spoke the russian president vladimir putin made his own remarks. it was a defiant speech. he showed no sign of backing down, blaming the west for an invasion he launched and pulled his country out of the start of an army control treaty today. it was the only remaining treaty with the united states. ukraine has clawed back around half the territory that was initially seized by russia but large parts of ukraine's south and east remain under russian control and a peace deal appears to be as distant as ever. joining us live from warsaw, poland john is there, the host and executive producer of the show time's "the circus" as well as the executive editor of "the recount." plus barry mccaffrey, former division commander during the gulf war and now an msnbc military analyst.

and mitt co's white house bureau chief and host of msnbc's "way too early," jonathan lemire. john, let's start with you. quite a day in poland. we go from a few years ago where the idea of nato was under threat. there were a lot of people who didn't think it was important. joe biden spoke to a crowd of thousands of cheering pols about this war in ukraine. >> yeah, ali, it was a sight there, really the crush of people on the ground. it's very impressive place to hold the royal gardens there outside the royal palace is an impressive spot. it makes for great image and for great pictures. they were -- this is obviously a place that we know joe biden spoke at 11 months ago back in march of 2022, gave an important speech then when the questions that he referred to today were very much indoubt -- the question of whether nato would

hold together, the question of whether the larger western alliance would hold together. for a matter of weeks or months not for another year people had big questions about it. nato was in many respects people thought were senescent. and joe biden gave a speech then including if you'll recall a comment interpreted correctly in which he seemed to suggest vladimir putin should be ousted, and white house said he's not talking about regime change, but put this kind of unchecked aggression for it to end -- as long as he was in office this would never end. biden knew what he said and meant what he said i think. but it seemed a very defiant speech then and a bold risky speech given state of the alliance and where things stood. now it looks like a better bet obviously as biden said today it wasn't exactly a victory lap, but he did take a lot of pride in what has happened over these last 11 months. the question i think going forward and general mccaffrey

will have another view about this and other generals i view about what the likely future holds for the conflict itself. but joe biden, again, was defiant. he was a forceful and taken great care not to involve america in direct conflict with russia. but in the indirect conflict playing out for the last 11 months he's been perfectly willing to take on vladimir putin and did it again today. >> yeah, and is perfectly willing to say we are in this sandbox with ukraine. it may not be our war but we're directly there. general mccaffrey, let's ask you this. joe biden said something to the effect if russia were to stop fighting today, the war would end. if ukraine were to stop fighting today, ukraine would end. he was making the argument this

is existential for ukrainians, it's not for russia. although vladimir putin is trying to sell to his people this is some sort of existential fight for the future of russia. >> yeah, no question. it's a good sound bite for starters but it also underscores what's at stake with ukrainians. if they were to lose, it would not just be the loss of their freedom. i think you'd see a massive outflow of refugees or people fleeing -- ending up under russian control, and there'd be massive shootings and reprisals from the russians. their behavior has been simply disgraceful at the highest levels down to the infantry torturing, killing, raping, destroying civilian infrastructure. certainly the ukrainians have no choice but to fight. one comment about president biden's remarkably good,

balanced presentation was him speaking to the russian people, which i particularly thought was strong to underscore this is russian leadership primarily putin that got them into this situation, and that we have no intent of trying to dominate russia as a nation. now, whether that will penetrate to the russian people is debatable, but i'm glad he said it. >> jonathan lemire, we're in the news business so we don't tend to dig up a whole lot of old stuff, but there's something i want to dig up from five years ago that suddenly becomes relevant. it was you in helsinki with president putin. the answer he gave you sort of told russia and america and the world where donald trump stood with relation to russia and that stands in stark contrast to what joe biden did today. but let's go back five years to helsinki and listen to

conversation you and the then president had. >> president trump you first. just now president putin denied having anything to do with the election interference in 2016. every u.s. intelligence agency has concluded russia did. what -- who -- my first question for you, sir, is who do you believe? my second question is now with the whole world watching tell president putin would you denounce what he did in 2016 and warn him never to do it again? >> my people came to me, dan coats and some others came to me and said i think it's russia. i have president putin, he just said it's not russia. i will say this i don't see any reason why it would be. >> he sort of walked that back over the next 24 hours, but he said it in realtime. joe biden is doing the opposite. joe biden is doing everything possible to make it clear to vladimir putin we're not on your side. and in response to his visit to

this square next to me yesterday the foreign minister of ukraine posted on facebook to vladimir putin no one is afraid of you. i want to get your sense how things have changed. >> donald trump at the time before that stop in helsinki he'd been at nato in brussels and nearly pulled the united states out of that alliance, had to be talked about it by aides, threatened america's allies he was going to abandon what had been created in the aftermath of world war ii. of course at this moment nato has never been stronger thanks to president biden. president trump has continue today stay in vladimir putin's corner. yesterday in florida he relived that moment from helsinki and stood by his answer as he did on truth social recently. it's a 180 from that presidency to this one, to joe biden who's always been a man who believed in alliances, transatlantic

alliances in particular, who from the beginning moments of this conflict said the united states and western europe needs to stay aligned with ukraine not just in this conflict because of what it will represent to the rest of the globe were russia to win, and i think it's so instructive to flashback to when the last time president biden visited this square in warsaw. it was the first weeks of the war, he'd just come from a ukraine refugee facility there. it was somber, and though he was defiant, it was a real environment there, there was real fear ukraine would not be able to hang on. today he's there, almost setup like a pep rally for nato with lights and sound track that featured bruce springsteen and his message couldn't have been more defiant and he came from kyiv where he stood around in broad daylight with volodymyr zelenskyy and showing how much putin's invasion has failed. >> jonathan lemire, that was

fantastic and makes me uncomfortable. at that time when there were doubts about nato strength and countries to the didn't believe in it, that was never the case with poland. these are countries literally been at the foot for year. they know this, it's been within a couple of generations of everybody alive in poland. it's the right message for joe biden. >> yeah, i mean, look, ali, the reality is that the questions about the viability of nato and the possible weakening of nato were not directed at any of the front line states along the borders of russia. >> right. >> if you live in poland, if you

were in one of the baltic states, i was in estonia a year ago and talked to the president of estonia about the same thing. the memories there are very vivid. there's almost no one you can meet in estonia or other baltic states who don't have a memory of a relative who was in some way suffered some kind of indignity or horror at the hands of the russians over the last couple of generations. and they're -- not only are they urging nato and a commitment to nato, but their desperate need for nato is always on display here. there was questions about countries like france, countries like germany, countries that don't sit right at the doorstep of russia who don't think that if you did not think it -- did not think if ukraine falls to russia that they could be next. those little ones whose resoluteness was in question and

joe biden had to do when he came here 11 months ago, 12 months ago to put this alliance together, to revivify nato. and instead it led to the natoization of finland, nato is now the strongest it's been in decades and in fact it's larger. nato has enlarged over the course of the last year. when the history of this is written that may be one of the great legacies of joe biden. again i go back to general mccaffrey here on some level, the question a year in there's no one who doubts this extraordinary thing that ukraine has fought russia through a standstill -- but the question many have doubts about including those europeans who met in munich a week ago is how much longer can this go on? and is it not still the case that russia because of its superior size, money, resources, still has the upper hand here over the long haul? and what does that mean for joe biden's legacy and what does it mean for his politics over the course of the next two years?

those are the big questions i think as we come out of these rather triumphant last couple of days for joe biden in ukraine and poland. >> this is a very interesting question i want to put to general mccaffrey. yesterday i spoke to first foreign minister of post-soviet russia and the last foreign minister of soviet russia, and he was saying do not make the mistake of thinking that russia is exhausted or necessarily exhaustible. they're having a rough time right now. this recruitment of prisoners is not working for them. they are running short of ammunition, but he says russia is equipped to stick around for the long haul, and it would be folly for the west to think that there's nothing to this, that russia's failing. >> well, i dealt with him on nuclear arms control after the demise of the soviet union. he's very strong, powerful, thoughtful man. i think he's largely correct, it's hard to imagine putin being brought down by his own elites. it's hard to imagine putin

finding any way to back out of not just seizing the donbas and retaining crimea, he's seizing all of ukraine. so he's a one way road to disaster for russia. however, it is clear to me the crux of the matter is can the western alliance stay together and support ukraine? if they can, if they stop the metering out of military technology, armor, deep strike artillery, and rocket weapons, lethal drones. if they -- if we firmly support them over the long run, ukraine wins completely, russia loses completely. and let me add one other comment. i was in warsaw having lunch with a senior polish defense official a few years back, and he reminded me. he said, barry, you know, we live between germany and russia. the germans will seize your freedom when the russians grab

you, you lose your soul. so baked into the eastern alliance and nato is a desperate fear of the russians with good reason. >> i do want to ask you, general mccaffrey, this discussion that every time vladimir putin gets back into a corner or feeled backed in he drops the word nuclear somewhere. and today they announced the suspension of their participation in the new star treaty. not leaving it but just the suspension of it. antony blinken says they haven't really been abiding by it anyway. what do you make of that? how big a deal is the suspension of russia's participation in the new star treaty? >> it's serious. it's the last piece of architecture in control of nuclear weapons that remains. i worked on the original star treaty with the russians. the obama administration managed to get them to agree to freezing nuclear war heads to 1,550 and

launchers at 700. it was an important piece of this. i've dealt with the russians on nuke arms control in closed offices with no one else listening in. i've never heard more dangerous, irresponsible, shameful, stupid language in my entire life than coming out of putin and the russian state tv threatening nuclear attack on berlin, paris, london, d.c., washing tsunamis all over great britain from nuclear torpedos. it's completely asinine. it makes no military sense whatsoever. it's hard to imagine any outcoming occurring with a strategic nuclear change that doesn't evaporate russia. why are they doing this? putin's desperate. he's not thinking logically. >> general, good to see you as

always. general barry mccaffrey. john heilemann, thank you for being in poland for us. and jonathan lemire, stay with me please. i want to continue the conversation with you. when we come back reaction in russia to vladimir putin's address today. plus we'll turn to a big story back at home. the train derailment on the ohio border, the administration today ordering the rail company to take full responsibility of the cleanup while the transportation secretary pete buttigieg unveils a sweeping package of reforms for the entire rail industry. he joins us on that, pete buttigieg in the very first interview since this story broke. and later bombshell reveals from thefore person in the special grand jury in the fulton county, georgia, investigation into donald trump. what she's saying about multiple indictments and whether the ex-president is expected to be on that list as well. all those stories and more when

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the announcement by russia that it's suspending participation in new star is deeply unfortunate and irresponsible. we'll be watching carefully to see what russia actually does. we remain ready to talk about strategic arms limitations at any time with russia. irrespective of anything else going on in the world with our relationship, i think it matters we continue to act responsibly in this area, also something the rest of the world expects of us.

>> u.s. secretary of state antony blinken rebuking the decision today by president vladimir putin to suspend russia's only remaining nuclear pact with the united states. blinken says the u.s. is, quote, watching closely, end quote, to see what russia actually does and is postured appropriately, his words, for its own security and that of its allies. joining our conversation now is the moscow bureau chief for "the new york times," and jonathan lemire is back with us. anton, thank you for joining us. you heard blinken say there and we heard this from the russians, too, that whenever whatever else is going on in the world they do have some cooperation on this particular issue, which is why a whole lot of people are saying why is this a big deal. people who watch this closely feel this is actually a big deal, suspending the cooperation of the new star treaty. >> absolutely. this is really what remains of the post-cold war security architecture between these two

former cold war foes. and what russia did today was kind of start the process of potentially exiting that treaty. they were very careful and putin very much emphasized that this was not breaking with the treaty entirely. this was about suspending the treaty, and the russian foreign ministry tonight actually put out a follow up statement saying that, in fact, russia will remain within the limits on nuclear war heads deployed that are prescribed in that treaty at least until it expires in 2026. so it's kind of a slow motion untangling that we're seeing here but a big step nonetheless. >> so, jonathan, i guess what anton is describing is this a flex. yesterday we saw a flex here with volodymyr zelenskyy and joe biden, and this is vladimir

putin's flex back. >> i think that's right. but it also reveals just how few cards putin still has to play in this conflict unless he were to do the unthinkable and launch a weapon of mass destruction meaning biological or nuclear. we should be clear u.s. officials i spoke to today in the aftermath of putin's speech say russia wasn't in full compliance with its treaty anyway, and they also haven't seen any change in their nuclear posture. so there's nothing to suggest putin would suddenly reach for those doomsday weapons, he's threatened throughout this war but has made no sign yet to do so. i think officials also point to me putin at this point it's a lot of bluster. he's not able to really change the trajectory of this war. as we've been noting it's still a war of attrition. he's bogged down and there's a lot of violence there in the east and south of ukraine. but putin has not been able to achieve any of his major goals and even talked recently about a new offensive from russia that

at least to this point it's been pretty middling and halting and u.s. officials now wonder if russia has the armor and equipment and man power to make another lunge at kyiv, for instance. so they saw putin here backed into a corner using one of the few cards he has left to play in a speech dower and somber in front of bureaucrats as opposed to rally we saw in warsaw. >> anton, you'd written about this this week in "the new york times" that vladimir putin had skipped this speech last year because he lacked good news to share amid russia's setbacks at the front. with the approaching anniversary of the invasion you write with the lack of clarity even among mr. putin's supporters about the nature of his exact goals in ukraine may have forced his hand. you were talking about making this speech, but what is going on in terms of domestic support of vladimir putin and this war on the one-year anniversary of a war supposed to be over within

days if not weeks ago? >> it's there but also very passive. you're seeing very few kind of enthusiastic signs of cheer leading for this war. that is really confined to a small population. what i talk to people in russia what i hear over and over is people saying, well, we just want this to be over at some point somehow. but what was really important about putin's speech today was he actually did not lay out any kind of plan for how this war is going to end. he only said that we will keep going step by step. and so this speech in addition to this new nuclear bluster aimed at the united states was also about telling people within russia and those somber bureaucrats in the hall he was speaking to, that this is going to go on for a while, this could take years, don't expect anything to change anytime soon.

>> jonathan, something that was interesting on the night that the war broke out, on february 23rd in the west, february 24th here is that vladimir putin gave a speech that night. he -- he talked about some sort -- he implied some sort of existential threat to russia, which didn't make any sense at the time. he also talked about the expansion of nato which wasn't a sensible conversation back then. he made it a more sensible conversation. he talked about the denazification of ukraine. he seemed to drop those other things from the his speech today, but as general mccaffrey said earlier joe biden addressed that head on. he addressed the russian people and said we're not coming after you. >> and biden has made this to almost personal terms with putin, two men of -- cold war veterans who remember, of course, when the tensions between the soviet union and the united states were at their highest. and putin -- biden has been

clear throughout that the west quarrel is not with the russian people. there's no attempt despite his comment a year ago in warsaw, there's never been any effort for any sort of regime change in moscow. they simply want putin to leave ukraine. as he said today if russia were to call off invasion and withdraw its men the war would be over. and putin his arguments have been nonsensical to the start as to justification for this war. we know he has grand imperial designs of restoring the soviet union. at the very least he believes ukraine is rightly part of russia. that's always been the sort of animating factor for this war. of course none of the ukrainians or only a few ukrainians agree with that. and we've seen this remarkable resilience and patriotism from the people there and see it in their fighting day after day. and see from president biden a similar message.

there was a lot to celebrate today, and he certainly is rallying the u.s. and europe to stay with ukraine and acknowledged hard days were ahead as this is a conflict that has no end in sight and could stretch or even perhaps years. >> thanks to both of you for being with us. jonathan, thanks for sticking around a little longer. anton is the bureau chief for "the new york times," and jonathan lemire, thank you for being with us. up next "the new york times" award winning photo journalist on her year covering the brutality of russia's invasion. her ilages of civilians caught in the conflict have made countless front pages. what she and other reporters on the ground have captured and brought back to people all over the world have helped rally the awareness for people all over ukraine. lindsey joins us on the importance of keeping it on the front page. e importance of keeping it on the front page - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults.

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as we mark one year of war in ukraine this week we're joined by the photo journalist who took this devastating photo that ran on the front page of

"the new york times" in the early days of conflict the bodies of a ukrainian mother, her two children, and a family friend kill by russian fire as they tried to flee ukraine. lindsey said of her picture at the time, quote, i thought it's disrespectful to take a photo but i had to take a photo. this is war crime. "the new york times" photo journalist has continued to document the brutality of the war. she's just back from her latest five-week assignment in ukraine. the last i spoke to her she was in the war torn part of the country. she joins us tonight from spain. lindsey, it is always good to see you, and i'm glad you're out for a little while because you don't get a chance to curate or edit. you won an award for the photo we just showed asked the citation for the award noted she dove for cover as the shell landed and then took the gruesome photo on instinct. and that's what you've been doing for a long time. you've been taking photos in which you are documenting this war, but you and i discuss this

is hard on the soul. >> yeah, i mean, it's been two decades of this. and over the past year i've been in ukraine a total of about five months. i've done five rotations ranging anywhere from 3 to 6 weeks. as you said we just spoke from donbas when i was there on the last rotation. this photograph sort of really incapsulates what it has been been like, innocent civilian being killed repeatedly. in that instant i was in the attack, i witnessed the intentional targeting of a civilian evacuation route. and i know that it was -- you know, it was a targeted attack on a known evacuation route because i was there. so i think it's really important to keep up the news coverage in ukraine. it's a really collective effort with all the journalists ukrainian and foreign on the ground. >> let me go back to that first photo of a woman we just saw standing on the second floor of

a building that looks to be completely destroyed. tell me about this photo. this was actually very close to where i am now in kyiv. >> yeah, so that was on the second day of the war. when the war started i was in donetsk in the eastern part of ukraine. i made my way back to kyiv, drove through the night. this attack had happened that morning. we drove directly to the site on our way into kyiv, and it was incredible. this was a prelude of what would be the next year, missile strikes on civilian targets, the entire face of building sheared off by the force of the blast. peoples lives torn apart, torn open, civilians killed, civilians injured, and this really set the stage for what would be the next sort of five weeks for me in kyiv. >> i want to pull up another photo. this is i think the most recent one that has been published that

you've shot. it's soldiers, something called the free russiaa legion part of the ukrainian armed forces, fighting against the russian positions more than a mile away. this is in the donbas region when last i spoke to you. this was taken on february 3rd. tell me what we're looking at. >> we're looking at russians fighting against russians on behalf of ukraine, on behalf of the ukrainian military. the free russian legion is a force of russians who joined because they were morally opposed to the war. some of these soldiers were living in ukraine at the time of the war. some of these soldiers are fighting because they just don't believe in the war and they don't want putin to dominate ukraine. and so we went. it was incredibly sensitive, as you can imagine russians fighting against russians are a huge target for russian soldiers on the other side. and so we had a very short amount of time at the front line. we were very close to russian positions.

and so this was as you said a few weeks ago and it was a story by michael schwartz in "the new york times." >> i want to take a look at a picture from irpin, one of the last remaining civilians evacuated there and carried on a blanket across the remnants of a destroyed bridge. you and i spoke about this photo probably almost a year ago. this was from march 2022 shortly after the war began. >> yeah. i mean, we -- you know, we started seeing some of these images in the early days of march when we now know what was happening in bucha and irpin because we've seen those dramatic horrific images of civilians being tortured and killed. people were fleeing for their lives over this destroyed bridge. this was a bridge the ukrainians destroyed 24e78selves to stop the russian advance. so people, civilians trapped on the other side in irpin and

bucha outside of kyiv were making their way across this bridge. many were elderly. there were women, there were children, there were vulnerable. some had to be carried across as you see in this image, and it was all the while there was shelling going on in the distance, very, very dramatic scenes coming across this bridge. and this is very close to where i took that first photograph of the mother and her two children and the church volunteer that were killed on march 6th. >> linsey, i want to ask you about a photo you took literally two days after the war started in 2022, in february. it's of a ukrainian volunteer, a teacher who's weeping as she waits to be transported from a center to which they're going to be deployed to fight russian troops in kyiv. tell me about this picture. you can see everyone in the picture here has got a large gun in their hands.

>> yeah. i mean this was an extraordinary scene primarily because for me it was sort of shocking as someone who's covered war for two decades to see the outpouring of people who gave up their lives and basically said i want to volunteer to fight for my country. when i met her this is moments after i jumped in this van, i gotten permission to photographed them, jumped in the van and noticed only through my viewfinder that she was crying. and i said why are you crying, and she said i'm scared. and i said are you cared for your life or scared for your country, and she said both. and i've stayed in touch with julia throughout the year. i've made four different trips where i photographed her at different courses of her service. and that story appeared sunday in "the new york times" and also online. >> linsey, it is good to see you

again. get some r&r, because you're going to come back here and sure. pulitzer prizewinner, the winner of the polk award just last week and author of the remarkable book" it's what i do." residents of east palestine ohio have been demanding more from officials since train cars with toxic chemicals derailed near the town weeks ago. the transport secretary pete buttigieg joins us right after this break. cretary pete buttigieg joins us right after this break

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if you're outside for more than 15, 20 minutes you start feeling the congestion, heaviness in your chest. >> and i smelled it, that chemical odor that's in the water. of course my heart sank, i freak out, start to shake. >> i'm not sure whether to believe anyone or not. and they're concerned for their kids, concerned to drink the water, concerned for their babies. >> i don't want to live in that fear of wondering are we going to get sick or not. >> the damage is already done. we're going to see the repercussions of it for the next 10, 20, 30 years. >> residents of east palestine, ohio are still confused asked fearful two weeks after a train derailment dumped toxic chemicals into their town up ending their lives. today the epa administrator visited the town for a second time in a week, drinking the water in an attempt to

demonstrate it's safe, but after conflicting information from official sources and oil sheen coating local streams and the wreck still looming, residents still remain wary. in an effort to prevent similar disasters from occurring today transportation secretary pete buttigieg announced rail reform. thank you for being with us. so i want to ask you the residents of east palestine are asking when you are going to pay them a visit. what have you got to say to that? >> so i am planning to visit. i have followed the norm in the first days of the crash response of staying out of the way of the independent ntsb, the national transportation safety board, has the lead on the investigative part. but we're now entering inphase where this is becoming a policy conversation. so in addition to being ready to take enforcement action against norfolk southern to the extent the investigation turns up any

viles, it is also time for us to move forward from a policy perspective, make sure we strengthen accountability, and strengthen rules on rail safety. today i've been calling for three actions, actions the rail industry needs to change, actions congress can help us with, and things we're doing right now to take action in the u.s. department of transportation, both things we've been working on all along we're accelerating and new things we're adding to the agenda based on some of the lessons we've already learned from what we saw in east palestine. you listen to the residents talking about what they've been through. they are concerned, they're frightened, and so is anybody who lives near a rail line which is true for so many communities, wondering if they, too, can be kept safe. that is a very important thing to safeguard. and in a town, washington, d.c., where the freight rail industry has flexed a lot of muscle and wielded a lot of power, now's the chance to make sure that the future is different from the past in terms of their ability

to get their way. >> let's talk about the immediate concern here, and that is the -- the health concerns people have, what they think is conflicting information. as you just saw some people said they smell things, they see oil sheens. they're worried in a very immediate fashion about health. where is your department with respect to the epa and norfolk southern and local officials in dealing with people who are worried they're drinking or breathing contaminated water or air? >> well, i'm in frequent contact with the administrator of the epa. they of course have the lead on the environmental side, and they're doing excellent work to make sure these residents have access to the best testing,info science. there's also now federal public health presence on the ground through cdc and health and human services. even though our piece of this is the transportation side, i'm

concerned that they get what they need on the health and environmental side and appreciate the work being done to make sure they have everything they need. that's going to continue long after there's less public attention, less people coming through town and less media coverage, frankly. there still needs to be support for these residents, because their concerns are going to continue for years. >> as we were researching this, i learned there were something like 1,049 train derailments in the united states last year. i immediately thought that must mean individual rail cars not actual trains, but turns out it's actual trains. what do we need to do to keep trains on the rails, and more importantly, there are some reporting that norfolk southern wasn't compelled to tell everybody about this because there wasn't enough hazardous material on the train. i would think any amount of

hazardous material would be subject to regulation. >> this train was subject to some hazardous material requirements and rules, but was not part of the most restricted category. a lot of people are wondering why wouldn't a train like this qualify? have to say our authorities m really have been constrained over the years by congress, which is why we're doing two things at once. we're making the most of the authority we have and calling on congress to give us a stronger hand. there was a push by my department a couple of administrations ago to get more fortified tank cars out on the rails. that was supposed to be done by 2025. congress, responding to industry lobbying, pushed that out to 2029. that date needs to be brought back up. there's the issue of how tough the fines are. even when we catch a rail

company in an egregious violation, the most we can assess per violation is about $250,000. for a multibillion dollar company like norfolk southern, i just don't think that's enough to add the deterrent effect that these fines need to have. so those are some of the things congress can help with. one of the things we're working on as a department is a rule that the previous administration froze, but that we restarted when we got here, to set minimum standards for crew on board these trains. these railroads have cut and cut when it comes to the safety workforce. and now they have been pushing to be allowed to have just one person on a train, even a train that can be a mile long or longer. so we're developing the rules that would require there to be at least two. we're going through that legal process right now. but it's just one example of things that we are doing with the powers that we have, even while we're calling on congress to help us get a stronger hand.

>> i have to ask you, i'm here in kyiv, ukraine. one of the things the mayor of east palestine said, that he called on joe biden to visit east palestine before he went to ukraine. he said that was the biggest slap in the face telling us he didn't care about us, talking about joe biden. i found out he was in the ukraine giving millions away to people over there, not to us, and i'm furious. look, to americans who have a train derailment, particularly with hazardous chemicals in their community, you can see why this feels like the biggest priority to them and perhaps generations to follow. what do you say to people who see the president's visit to ukraine but don't see you or the president in east palestine? >> well, the biggest thing i want residents to know is that they're not alone. our department's personnel were on the ground from within the first hours of the incident.

they've got multiple federal agencies on the ground partnering with the state and local first responders. this has the attention of the entire administration. and will for many years to come. look, the people of east palestine deserve accountability from norfolk southern. that's something that the epa announced today, the level they're holding norfolk southern to. it's something we're going to pursue to the maximum extent allowed by law. i am planning to go, and it's going to be about action, not show or politics. i can very much relate to how a mayor feels having been mayor and knowing there were two kinds of people who showed up to disasters. people who were there because they had a specific role to do and wanted to help, and people there because they wanted to look good. our support for east palestine will not go away. >> what are you able to do to get clarity to the people on the

ground in east palestine about whether they can drink their water? one of the sources of contention has been conflicts information. >> i think the most important thing is to make sure they have access to good science, good testing, and good data. that's part of what my colleague administrator michael regan cares about this and is on the ground there. people need to be able to get access to that testing, and the water has been found safe. many people want to know if their wells are also safe and have been given access to testing, as well. this is one of the most basic things we all need is that the water we're drinking is safe. it's a very understandable concern by residents. the best thing that anyone can do to offer clarity is to get them access to good tests to scientifically confirm the quality of their water. >> secretary, good to see you. thank you for joining us. just ahead for us, breaking

news out of fulton county, georgia. what they are saying about these expected multiple indictments in the criminal investigation of donald trump's election interference. a lot more ahead. n interference a lot more ahead ya'll gotta sniff this stuff! woop woop! - whoo - smells great, downy! ugh, cul-de-sacs. downy unstopables. you gotta sniff it to believe it.

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hi, again, everyone. it is 5:00 in new york. it is 12:00 in the morning, midnight here in kyiv. we'll get to the developments here on the ground regarding the nearly 1-year-old war in ukraine, just a day after joe biden made a surprise visit to kyiv. we start this hour with breaking news on a consequential investigation that we have been following for months. we just played you the then president of the united states asking georgia's secretary of state to find just enough votes needed for him to win. an unbelievable moment on tape for everyone to hear. that call became a focal point in the fulton county special

grand jury investigation, which, according to stunning new reporting in "the new york times," is recommending indictments of multiple people on a range of charges. the times spoke with the special grand jury's forewoman, emily coors, who describes it as "not a short list" of indictment recommendations, but did not name any names. "the times" adds, ask whether the jurors had recommended indicting mr. trump, she gave a cryptic answer, "you're not going to be shocked. it's not rocket science," adding "you won't be too surprised," saying, if the judge releases the recommendations, it's not going to be some giant plot twist. you probably have a fair idea of what may be in there. i'm trying very hard to say that delicately." those comments coming just hours after the associated press named her publicly and published their

own interview, pulling back the curtain on the jury's work. the ap writes -- >> at this moment, the majority of the final report where the recommendations are contained remains sealed. and in the possession of the fulton county district attorney. willis will have the ultimate decision on wlrnl to follow through with those recommendations. just in the last hour, our colleague, blayne alexander, spoke with kohrs. here she is discussing how many indictments they have recommended. >> it's not a short list. i mean, we saw 75 people, and

there are six pages of the report, i think, if you look at the page numbers. so it's not -- >> we're talking about more than a dozen people? >> i would say that, yes. >> are these recognizable names? names that people would know? >> there are certainly names that you would recognize, yes. there are names also that you might not recognize. >> certainly names you'll recognize. much more of that coming up on "nightly news." joining us is joyce vance, will you professor at the university of alabama. also, former fbi assistant deputy director for counterintelligence, both msnbc contributors. welcome to both of you. joyce, let's start with you. first of all, what do you make of this? this is unusual, the foreperson of the grand jury saying a lot of words, not telling us necessarily the words everybody is looking to hear. but what do you make of this

whole thing? >> it is very unusual to hear a grand juror speak out like this, especially before an indictment. but essentially we're not learning anything that's not already in the public domain. much of this evidence, the witnesses, and the story itself, as you begin playing the president's taped phone call, that tells the story of what this grand jury saw. you know, to the extent the question is whether this is so unusual that it might prejudice indictments down the road, i think there will always be challenges forthcoming from defendants here about having a tainted petit jury pool, because there's been so much public comment. but this foreperson demonstrates that there are people, she hadn't heard the tape before or voted in the 2020 election. i think that reinforces the sense that particularly in

georgia, but really efficient -- everywhere, you can get a jury that's not biased. >> frank, one of the things in the interview that we learned is that mark meadows spoke to the grand jury for about an hour and a half. obviously, the one thing this grand jury has been able to do is get a whole bunch of people to speak under both, and one of the things that leaked out from the grand jury is that they certainly believe at least one person has perjured themselves in their testimony under oath. what do you make of the meadow stuff and what you heard so far? >> with regard to meadows and this kind of cloud of perjury that might be hanging over this decision, you have to look at who is in best position, meaning who is really motivated to lie, because they're exposed criminally here and/or politically. and who knows the most and would be motivated to lie? certainly, you have to look at mark meadows as a potential -- someone who is motivated to say less than the truth. with regard to this outspoken

foreperson, yeah, it is really unusual. i am taken aback by it. i'm taken aback by it because typically we treat grand jury proceedings as secret. joyce has correctly pointed out we haven't really learned anything from inside the minds necessarily of those special grand jurors. i hope quite frankly that this foreperson has thought through the ramifications of her public statements, and even the security regarding her going public and her identity being public. i think -- i hope for sure it doesn't prejudice in any way or impact the decision making going forward. ultimately someone will claim it was inappropriate, we should expect that. but i'm intrigued whether or not we're seeing a coming attraction with regard to what the federal side is going to look like. there are fewer moving parts, fewer players for the grand jury than say jack smith, the special

counsel. but this is, i think, a preview of what is to come federally. >> joyce, bonnie willis has been clear on the fact that she's going to pursue this case and go where the evidence takes her. she's not a reluctant actor in this person. but when the foreperson says nothing will surprise you, the fact is, everybody who testified had something to say about this. the point of testifying is you're under oath. if you are lying, there are consequences. she seemed to be hinting what you think is the case might be the case. what do you make of that? >> certainly what she is suggesting is that, and it's important to remember this is a special investigative grand jury. they can make recommendations to the district attorney's office. the district attorney's office isn't bound by those recommendations, and they may choose to indict people who weren't on this investigative grand jury's list. they might choose not to indict some folks that this grand jury

thought deserved indictment. that is up to the district attorney's discretion, and she will, of course, have to go to her regular grand jury to seek those indictments. you know, i think what we're hearing today is not surprising on one level as frank and i have both pointed out. it's very surprising on other levels. but ultimately this will be a sideshow to the main event, which will be the district attorney and her regular grand jury's decisions. >> tell me just about that process a little bit, there will be recommendations from this special investigative grand jury that goes to the district attorney. she will make certain choices or decisionsn't what to move forward with, and then has to present that to her -- to a regular grand jury to get the charges, if she wants it. >> right. that's absolutely right. what she'll have to do, and she can do it in the form of using agents. frank used to do this, as summary witnesses to explain the

evidence. hearsay is acceptable in front of a grand jury. she may choose to bring some of the key witnesses in for grand jurors to hear from in person. then at the end, the district attorney's office will propose a series of indictments with named individuals and the grand jurors will be asked to return what is called a true bill. that will be a vote in favor of indictment. >> frank, i want to sort of -- there are a lot of people in this country that would like to know who is going to get charged, and a lot of people that think there was fraud in the election and fraud in the georgia election. one of the things that the special investigative grand jury did say in -- or the portion that was released last week is that the grand jury heard testimony on the subject of alleged election fraud from pole workers, technical experts and the state of georgia employee officials still claiming that such fraud took place. we find that no widespread fraud took place in the election that

could result in overturning that election. tell me what you think about the idea that they are -- they're being very specific. we find by unanimous vote that no meaningful fraud took place. >> i'm glad you're bringing this up. it's important that this is part of what she decided to release publicly. why? because the truth matters, particularly so to a body that's considering whether to recommend an indictment. they clearly got down in the weeds and talked to the people who actually do this for a living. the people who tally votes, the people who understand the i.t. side of things, the paper side of things, and they came out unanimously and found no fraud. no, we live in a world where people find their own truths and people don't listen necessarily to facts. so we're airing this, we're getting this. people need to understand they should be looking this stuff up and reading it, because it's a

counternarrative to the repetitive mantra that there was fraud in the georgia election. people like you and me and everybody else did their duty, listened to experts, and found unanimously that was not the case. really important to just keep hammering the truth at people until it somehow seeps in. >> joyce, i want to read you something from the associated press that they said about the story they wrote. they said -- d w--

>> tell me what that means. >> so this is fascinating, because everyone who testifies has a right to assert their fifth amendment privilege to avoid self-incrimination if they believe they could be charged in a criminal case. and this is not uncommon to have people who attain immunity for themselves from prosecution, so that they can tell the truth, typically prosecutors do that to try to go after potential defendants who are higher up the food chain. but there is a little bit of a twist here. because when these witnesses testify in front of the fulton county grand jury, you would expect that if they had immunity offers only from georgia crimes, that they would still have a fifth amendment right to assert, and this suggests one of two things. either these were people who only have exposure under georgia law, no exposure to federal crimes, or as is far more likely

here, these are people where the d.a. has attained a global deal that involves federal prosecutors, and that immunity has been given to these witnesses so that they can cooperate from both the federal government and the state government. otherwise, it doesn't make sense that they would give up their fifth amendment rights and testify. so this is a very intriguing part of what we have learned today. >> joyce, i'm so glad you're with us to help us make sense of it. frank, please stick around. when we return, two different visions from the war in ukraine from joe biden and vladamir putin, as we approach the one-year mark since the russian invasion. that, and a dramatic report from nbc news' correspondent richard engel who is on the frontlines in eastern ukraine. plus, what may well be the most intriguing secret operation in a long time. how was it possible for joe biden to make a ten-hour train

trip and slip into ukraine and back out to poland? the chairman of the country's rail system explains how it happened. growing pressure on kevin mccarthy for handing over 40,000 hours of january 6th surveillance footage to tucker carlson. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. r a quick bre. don't go anywhe.er

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autocrats only understand one word -- no! no! no! [ applause ] no, you will not take my country.

no, you will not take my freedom. no, you will not take my future. i'll repeat what i said last year in the same place, a dictator will never be able to ease the people's love of liberty. brutality will never grind down the will of the free. and ukraine, ukraine will never be a victory for russia. never. >> a loud and clear message from joe biden earlier when he spoke in warsaw, poland today. putin, you will not be successful in this war. politico took stock of how much had changed since joe biden last spoke at that exact location. >> his message was somber and grim, reflecting the uncertainty

about ukraine's ability to repel a much larger foe. but now thanks to the strength and skill of the ukrainian military, kyiv and ukraine have held. biden today projecting a message of unity with allies and of unrelenting support, just a day after meeting with ukraine's president right here in kyiv. yet the war rages on. today, a bus station in kherson was hit by russians. six civilians were killed. nbc news chief correspondent richard engel has been reporting from the frontlines and has this report. >> reporter: this is what the frontline looks like out here in eastern ukraine. the conditions are very tough, because now the snow is just starting to melt, filling these trenches with mud. the soldiers are here day in,

day out. and of course, they're under attack. russian troops are attacking a village about five miles from here right now, and soldiers in this position just spotted a russian drone in the air a few minutes ago. the russians have been using drones, mostly to carry out surveillance so that they can better direct their artillery fire and find ukrainian troops hidden in trenches like these. this is a world away from kyiv. kyiv was once a major battle zone, but now, kyiv is relatively safe, because russian troops have been pushed back from kyiv. so much so that joe biden was able to visit kyiv, and was able to walk around the center of the city, even though there were air raid sirens. he was still able to do it with relative safety. even out here in this remote part of ukraine, word of joe biden's visit has arrived, and soldiers here say that they were encouraged by the visit. it gave them confidence that the united states and the biden

administration is sticking with them and will continue to provide them weapons and ammunition. and that is something we hear all the time, not just here, that the ukrainians need more weapons, more ammo, because they're able to defend themselves. it's not that they feel they are about to be overrun. in fact, troops are not overwhelmingly impressed with what they have seen with the russian offensive so far. the russians launched this new offensive about two weeks ago. but it's very slow going, and the russians think -- and the ukrainians think that they are able to hold the line for now. but in order to get out of these trenches, in order to get out of these bunkers and take the fight to the russians and push back the russian positions, they say they need more ammo and more weapons, and they need them quickly. >> richard engel for us. joining us now is the associated press international affiliate

reporter. and rick stengel, a former member of joe biden's transition people. welcome to both of you. what is the reaction of the people you have been talking to here in ukraine to the appearance of joe biden yesterday and then the very strong speech that everybody expected joe biden to give today in poland, what has it done? does it have any effect whatsoever on the people of ukraine? >> it does. it's been a momentum few days for the ukrainian people and joe biden, as well. what people get here from this speech from the president in warsaw and his appearance here in kyiv yesterday is not necessarily a sense of safety, but they do get the feeling that the allies, the western allies and more than anybody, the united states, will stick with them. that was the clear message from joe biden in warsaw, that we will not waver were his words. he nenes the nato military alliance and any other country that has been willing to give ukraine weapons and any type of

humanitarian aid over the last year. now, ukrainians are very well read when it comes to the types of weapons being used in combat and the types of weapons they believe they need. not just the soldiers on the frontline that you just heard about from richard engel there. the people here know what they want. they hear from their have the, volodymyr zelenskyy, again and again. what they want are long-range weapons systems, they want fighter jets, and tha's not a promise joe biden brought to kyiv and not something that he spoke about in warsaw. despite this, people are very happy that joe biden made the way all the way here to kyiv. they're very proud, as well, that they were able to bring him here all the way to the capital city, because there is another president who also spoke today, vladamir putin of russia, who may be at the start of russia's full-scale invasion might have thought he could have been the president who would walk these

streets of kyiv at this time. of course, because of a myriad of military defeats for russia in ukraine, that obviously is not possible. and it was joe biden instead who was able to openly walk these streets with that air raid siren in the background. >> kind of amazing. there was an air raid siren. rick, in this country, people ignore those sirens because they become so common. but to have the president of the united states and the president of ukraine walking side by side right over here was kind of amazing. let's pull this back, rick. that speech in poland this joe biden gave today, it was not just for the thousands of poles who came out there to hear, it was a speech for the world. it was a real message that a year has passed, and those doubts that vladamir putin had about the west and its resolve and nato and its unity are over. >> yes, ali. a lot of roles that joe biden plays. he's supplying weapons to

ukraine. he's helping coordinate nato. but he's also a cheerleader. he's a cheerleader for democracy. that's what he was doing, say thing is the legitimate aspiration of the ukrainian people. this is a violation of their sovereignty that we haven't seen since world war ii. this is what the west has to stand up for. i know i sound like a cold warrior myself in saying that. but that is essentially what we have now, this existential threat against freedom. and it's not just one country, it threatens all of the europeans. biden has to show the resolve of the united states, because people depend on that. the u.s. is the linchpin of the whole movement against the invasion, and biden was a really powerful cheerleader for it. as you say, striding the streets of kyiv while there is an air raid siren and not showing reflexes at all, i thought that was a powerful statement.

>> phil, you made an interesting point. this is a point i hear when i speak to ukrainians all over this country, no matter their age, they know what they want in terms of weaponry. every night, volodymyr zelenskyy puts out a statement and talks about the weaponry they want and talks about the negotiations and they have asked for things and the west has said no way, and then suddenly they become a reality. it happened with the tanks with germany. now as you said, it's the planes and the long-range weapons, and the noes from the west are getting more muted. we had a delegation today saying they should get the planes, it's a matter of when, not if. what is your sense whether they will get those planes and long-range missiles and whether or not that tilts this war in their favor if they do. >> that's been the point from ukrainians and the ukrainian government from the beginning. they need to be able to have control of their own skies, which they don't right now. there is no aerial dominance for ukraine right now.

yes, the capital kyiv, where both of us are right now, is well protected by air defense. but having fighter jets in the skies, being able to dominate the skies, from the very first day of russia's invasion of ukraine, that has been a demand from ukrainians and from president zelenskyy, protect the skies. they wanted a no-fly zone imposed by nato. that was swiftly rejected. fighter jets have been requested for a long time now. there is still that category call no, not just from the united states, but other nato members as well have said we can't quite go that far. there was a moment where it looked like it could be possible, that fighter jets from poland could be brought to ukraine and replaced by u.s. jets. that was quickly discarded. but you're right, there's always been a shopping list, if you will, from the ukrainian president in terms of the

weapons they want. medium range weapons are now on the front line, making a very important difference. they made it possible for those surprise ukrainian counteroffenses in the likes of kharkiv in the east, but also around kherson in the south. it could each be possible in the first place. long-range weapons and new weapons systems could be coming to ukraine at some point frankly, because you're absolutely right, this is how it's been going. ukraine is asking for more and more. there are initial rejections, then somehow these things come to pass. as we heard from joe biden today, this is such a big battle between democracy and autocracy, that the other countries come around in the end. nato comes around in the end to help ukraine in its battle against russia. >> phil, thank you for your great reporting. i know you have to go. rick, one more question for you. with the president in poland, the president of poland said if

this doesn't end soon, russia will be emboldened and will attack another state. it seems implausible that russia could attack another state after failing in ukraine, but the poles and the estonians and the latvians, they live in fear of this. they really do worry that russia is expansionist and will come into their country. >> you know that very well and i wish americans knew that. when i was in the administration, i traveled through the baltics. all of these countries are december pat to have american weapons and american troops there. they fear russia. so what the polish president is saying is important. the thing to remember is that there are 3 million ukrainian refugees in poland. we need to help support them. it's partially the generosity of the polish people, their fear of the russians unites them. so that's what europeans are facing across the board, and americans need to realize that.

>> rick, stick around. thank you. when we return, as we have been discussing, it was often iconic moment yesterday here in kyiv, joe biden walking through the streets with volodymyr zelenskyy, an air raid siren going off. but what about the secret operation to get him here? that's coming up. that's cominupg i think i'm ready for this. heck ya! with e*trade you're ready for anything. marriage. kids. college. kids moving back in after college. ♪ finally we can eat. ♪ you know you make me wanna...♪ and then we looked around and said, wait a minute, this isn't even our stroller! (laughing) you live with your parents, but you own a house in the metaverse? mhm. cool...i don't get it. here's to getting financially ready for anything! and here's to being single and ready to mingle. who's ready to cha-cha?! ♪ yeah, yeah ♪ your heart is the beat of life. if you have heart failure, entrust your heart to entresto,

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years down the line, so to speak, joe biden's train trip into kyiv will help define historic trip here. you might have seen the photos. amtrak joe riding rail force one into a war zone. but moments like this don't just happen, they take an extraordinary amount of planning and effort, with an unwavering faith in a safe and reliable train system. on that second point, one can count on ukraine's rail infrastructure. from mass evacuations in the earliest days a year ago, to its critical role, trains have become a symbol of ukrainian resolve. 15,000 miles of track. they have been the backbone of the war effort. i want to bring in the ceo of ukrainian railways. thank you for joining us this

evening. >> thank you very much. >> you had a remarkable twitter thread that everybody has read, describing and thanking your workers for the role they played in getting joe biden into kyiv. that was a remarkable part of the story. ten hours of train service, and i think one of the things you said in your twitter thread is you apologized for your not very good ontime service on monday, relatively speaking, because you had to delay a few things to get this to work. >> we had to delay dozens of trains, to make rail force one arrive safely and on time. >> i know, and you said in your twitter thread, there's some things you can't talk about operationally for obvious reasons. tell me what you can tell us, because when they make the movie about this, they're going to want you as a character. what can you say actually happened?

>> well, it was our honor and privilege to accommodate this journey of president biden through ukraine to kyiv. trust me, it was a remarkable, historical moment in this war. when russia said we'll take kyiv in three days, and then the 362nd day of the war, joe biden arrives to kyiv by train. that is a terrific moment. >> let's discuss the rail system. when the war started, i was in poland and hungary, and i would meet those refugees coming out of ukraine, mostly women and children in hungary or in poland. they had, in some cases, spent 12, 15, 20, 25, 30 hours on trains, coming from the far east of this country, going to these other countries. tell me about how much has changed. i think you just took over as

ceo of the rail service a few months prior to that. >> that's true. when the war began, it was complicated. our trains are slower but safer. so far, we haven't had any casualties on the trains. it was really important to properly manage the crowd and to properly let people get on the train when they believed they should be. >> let's discuss the attacks going on, the missile attacks targeting what the russians say is critical military infrastructure, but what most people in ukraine say is rail service. a lot of your train service is electricity generated. how has this affected the ability to get people and things around by rail in ukraine?

>> well, half of our rail tracks are electrified. but finally, when they switched the electricity off, we never stopped any single day. we never canceled any single train. and we have to keep running, because the railways should remain operational for our people. and yes, we believe trains, they will start shelling heavily when they switch off the electricity, but we never canceled the trains, and we always arrive and we always get people to their destination. >> i remember last year, being in a train station after it had been hit by enemy fire. the safety of the rail system, the idea that it's a target because rails are rails. you know where they go. that had to be in your mind as

you were organizing the transportation of the president of the united states from poland, from the polish border into kyiv. how were you thinking about it? how were you thinking about that level of risk? >> it was quite a long operation, and many people were involved from our side and from the u.s. side, and from the government's side. but finally, we get this job done. i reached out to the president in poland, and finally, that was one of the most complicated and most important special operations, special missions for railways. >> alexander, thank you for joining us. thanks for the work that you have put into not just this visit by the u.s. president but in keeping ukrainians moving and ukrainian goods moving. thank you.

>> thank you very much. when we return, we'll shift gears to u.s. politics and the questions being raised right now about why the house speaker kevin mccarthy handed over 40,000 hours of surveillance tapes from the capitol on january 6th to tucker carlson. it's a move critics say could provide a road map to the next insurrection. insurrection there's a story in every piece of land. written by those who work it. like the upshaws. the nelsons. and the caggianos.

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kevin mccarthy gave fox news host tucker carlson exclusive access to over 40,000 hours of capitol surveillance video from january 6th, with the select committee members and staff condemning that move. saying -- >> a spokesperson for kevin mccarthy said giving the access to a right wing network, that stoked the insurrection, is a sign of the bipartisanship saying --

>> let's bring in my guests now. good to see you all. thank you for being with us. frank, let me start with you. there is a security issue here. the idea that this is not public footage, this is stuff that has not been released by what they have been given over to tucker carlson, irrespective of what you think about tucker carlson' risk here, frank? >> what we are hearing, and nbc reported earlier today, there are legit security issues that could be exposed here. for example, a concern that the reason we have only seen nancy pelosi first removed from the floor and then next to see her in a room secured and safe is because we were not supposed to see the movement from the floor to the room because it would expose the safe room. and the route that the capitol police have established to take

someone safely away and put them in a safe place. those are the kinds of security concerns that could be exposed here if it's handled irresponsibly. the other concern, obviously, is the security concerns that arise from false conspiracy theorys. we know they are dangerous. we know that they lead to violence. so if, for example, this host on fox decides to play only things that indicate oar allow him to blow up conspiracy theories. oh, look, that looks like a fed. it looks like someone instigated this. there's an hour of people doing nothing peacefully, if that keeps coming forward and it's ginned up into the notion that all the prosecutions are witch hunts against peach who were violent on january 6th, it could pose a danger and threat in terms of violence.

>> mara, tucker carlson sort of implied that's what he is going to do. he's got a narrative. he's already established that narrative. he's been talking about it on tv. he's been involved in a documentary that presents a counternarrative. but he said that's what he will use it for. >> one of my concerns here is that this footage, i believe, belongs to the american people. this is property of the u.s. government. so i don't see any justification for only releasing that footage to tucker carlson. so, i think, you know, one of my concerns as a journalist is, okay, let's make sure that we can have legitimate news organizations who function as news organizations with all the responsibilities that journalism entails, let's have all the rest of us take a look at this footage. and before we release it, make

sure there are no security concerns. that's a process that regularly takes place in most journalism organizations. that's not to withhold key information from the public, but to make sure that we are, of course, adepressing security concerns that frank is laying out. fox news doesn't really engage in regular news practices. it's not an issue of partisanship of far right or far left. that's just the reality of them not acting as a news organization does. they are not known for presenting facts. that's extremely dangerous. but i just want to stress that's not journalism. >> rick, this doesn't even pass the smell test, right? mccarthy is not even interested in pretending that this is something legitimate. he's handed this over and says it's not about engaging in

partisanship. it doesn't make sense. you've been a journalist and you've been writing about important things for a long time. there are processes in place if you thought there was information the public needed to know, and this isn't it. >> yes, i want to foot stomp what mara said. it's the people's house. those are the people's tapes. those tapes and cameras are paid for by taxpayer money. a responsible speaker of the house would say, this is owned by the people of the american public. i'm releasing this to every journalism organization or i'm putting it in the cloud where everyone has access to it. that would be a responsible thing to do. his statement on its face is laughable. be a responsible thing to do. his statement on its face is laughable, and he says the exact opposite of reality, saying this is not a partisan thing to do unlike what the democrats did. what he did is absolutely partisan, uing material that's owned by the american public and

giving it to a partisan news organization that will look at it to support its own particular viewpoint. that's really a sacrilege. >> let's pull the curtain back a little bit and talk about the process that would be in place. if somehow you were given this or "the new york times" were given this information, what's the way in which you take it, curate it, and what are the evaluations you make about, here's what's safe to release, and here's what's out of context, or as frank says, reveals security procedures that would be dangerous to have in the public's hands? >> you know, this is a great question, because i think there are a lot of -- i think a lot of americans have a lot of concerns and questions about how journalism operates, so i wish we had more of an opportunity to talk frequently about this. to release as much as possible

to the public so the public is informed and can make their own decisions, and their own decisions at the polling booth or in their day-to-day lives. there's always a push and pull between journalists, reporters, and the governments we cover. so we're going to fight to get as much as possible public. that is our job. and so in those conversations that take place every day across the country, there are these conversations that take place, we want to make sure we're not putting at risk, for example, members of the military. sometimes that's a concern. other times it's members of congress in this case. we want to make sure that we're not exposing maps for example, that could be used by terrorists, god forbid to come into the capitol building. those are day-to-day concerns

taking place, but the impulse is to release as much as possible. >> thanks, mara. it is important, actually, for us to have these discussions a little more often so our viewers and readers and listeners understand the processes we go through. mara gay, rick stengle, thank you all for spending time with us. quick break. we'll be right back. us quick break. we'll be right back. the adventurers and the doers. to everyone that works hard and plays hard. whether it's your first silverado or your tenth. thank you for making chevy silverado the #1 best-selling retail full-size pickup. you know, there's a thousand billionaires in america, it■s up from about 600 at the beginning of my term. but no billionaire should be paying a lower tax rate than a schoolteacher or a firefighter. i mean it! think about it.

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case is moving in the direction i think most people believe that it should be moving. >> that means you will have to appear before a grand jury, correct? >> well, that will be a determination by the district attorney in this state, but it certainly looks like it's going in that direction. >> are you ready to do that. >> i was ready since day number one. >> donald trump's former attorney and fixer michael cohen, fresh from his 17th meeting with prosecutors from the manhunt district attorney alvin bragg's office today. as you heard him say, it's now bragg's call about whether cohen goes for a grand jury. for the past month bragg's team has been presenting evidence to the grand jury about the infamous hush money scheme involving stormy daniels. will bragg put michael cohen before a grand jury, and when? that's an open question. as so what cohen's testimony could mean for potential criminal charges against donald trump. we'll be right back.

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