europe trying to present a unified front, lot of prominent republicans backing that, but there are some small minority, but loud of minority of maga republicans that the biden administration is doing far too much. can that split grow? >> that split has been growing across the party. with folks like the governor of florida, ron desantis. it's started of this fringe really extreme attack on biden and foreign policy, tying it into immigration and whether how and he cares more about ukraine than the southern borders here he says but that's no longer a fringe view and more and more republicans are joining in the attacks and taking issue i biden on his ukraine approach altogether and also said they don't want to write a blank check, as they've said to

ukraine. >> one of the most important story lines of 2023. the divide in the republican party about ukraine. alexi buchanan, thanks very much. and thanks for getting up "way too early" with us on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. a dictator, building an empire, will never be able to ease the people's love of liberty. brutality will never ground down the will of the free, and ukraine, ukraine will never be a victim for russia. never. >> president joe biden marks one year of war in eastern europe with an impassioned speech promising continued support for ukraine and laying out the stakes of the conflict. meanwhile, we're were learning more about the special grand jury that investigated potential 2020 election interference by former president donald trump and his allies. we'll play for you new comments

from a key juror in the case, as some republicans are still trying to figure out their messaging on donald trump and his third presidential campaign. also ahead, the latest on the efforts to clean up an environmental disaster in ohio as federal and state official it's take action against the rail company at the center of it. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday february 22nd. along with joe in washington we have former cia officer now nbc news security and intelligence and here in new york with willie and me host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, and james stavridis, chief international analyst for nbc news and president on the council for foreign relations richard haass author of "the bill of

obligations" a great cast from washington t. is a great cast and also just say, yesterday, what an inspiing day, an inspiring few days. you know, willie, when you saw joe biden, when i saw joe biden walking through kyiv i was left, and i'm sure panelist will agree with think, i drew immediate parallels to jfk in berlin, reagan at the brandenburg gate, saying, mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall" and the greatest for joe biden because first since abraham lincoln and the civil war to basically a front line without american troops supporting and dominating that area, and then yesterday the

speech in warsaw, and it was -- it -- it was just remarkable. it was, western democracy versus russian tyranny, individual freedom versus tirant's toe tollitarianism. i must say, for this former republican and old cold warrior, this was -- this was just about as good as it gets. for those of us that believe that western democracy and that jeffersonian democracy and that the freedoms that we believe in in this country and that we strive to -- to live up to, even when we fall short, this is -- this was the good stuff. this -- this is -- is the

bedrock of our beliefs and i want to say "ours" i'm'm talkin about a former republican, a cold warrior and an exceptional nation and a couple of wonderful days. from my old party absolutely businesses ar comments from people who, for some reason, decide that they don't love western democracy. they don't love this freedom versus totalitarian fight. they don't love an american president actually risking his life to promote freedom across europe. if that president's not in their own party. truly -- a truly bizarre world vund one i will never understand as long as i live it is a bizarre world view but to good keep in mind it's become the minority view even within the republican party. a group yesterday a group of

republican congressmen and women following the lead of president biden there and extraordinary symbolism an person president walking through a war zone and in the morn vladimir putin defending his invasion and o'authoritarianism and a few hours later president biden made the exact opposite speech defending freedom, democracy and openness in the west as polish and american flags were waved in a speech of about 30,000 people and admiral stavridis, as we walked in, saw you briefly in the hallway and talking about a good day for nato, a good day for the west. what did you think, number one, as a military leader, a leader of supreme commander of nato, but also as an american about these last couple of days? >> it was terrific. and if you stop and think about the real risk that the president

took, and that is real, and as the supreme allied commander, you kind of put yourself in that role and you say, boy, would i have adviseded president to go in there, i'm not sure i would have. that's why he gets "paid the bick bucks" as we say but mate a power for choice in the name of democracy and the other thing that -- been a speechwriter. a speech like that, addressing four audiences, convey to the american why this is porng, to the europeans a senses real unity and to ukraines resolve, we will be with you and above all convey to the russians defiance. that's a pretty good day. >> yeah. joe? >> also, i wanted to follow-up with what willie said.

and i'm so glad he pointed that out. i think that image we had up earlier was, michael mccaul, in -- in ukraine, and he is, there he is. and he's not -- he's not a back bencher. i mean, that guy, i believe he's chairman of the armed services committee, and he went in, and so for every person we hear yammering, pro-putin talking points in the house gop, you've got mike mccaul over there, along with, i see darrell issa and other republicans who are supporting -- he's chair of the foreign affairs committee, and you have republicans over there, and actually you have chairman mccaul actually pushing for more missiles and f-16s going over to ukraine. as willie pointed out, mika,

this is -- this a republican house divided right now while republican senate for the most part stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the president. i saw somebody else yesterday. a brzezinski, another brzezinski in poland. who would imagine that? i saw mark speaking yesterday, and, you know, i visited poland a few weeks back, and it's remarkable, the conversation that we had with leaders in poland and in warsaw. mark understands, the ambassador understands and all those around him understand that the center of gravity for europe, the center of gravity for the fight for freedom in europe has moved from germany to warsaw, and it is a remarkable thing that joe biden and the rest of the administration now is focussing on it and this war against russian tyranny.

>> you know, it is kind of, gave me chills, to see him speaking before the president yesterday, and during al of these events, just because my father's life and, richard, we can talk more about this, and you can speak much more eloquently about it, you knew my father very well, but it was devoted to fighting tyranny, to assessing and strategizing the soviet threat, and trying to figure out, and he was prophetic as well as unbelievable skilled in his geostrategic relations, and -- seeing mark there sort of full circle, it was -- it was a lot. it was a lot, and it's sending, i think, his presence there is an incredible message in itself and very proud, personally, as his sister, but here's more of the president on the world stage speaking directly to everybody involved in the fight against

tyranny and especially to vladimir putin about what will and will not fly. >> one year ago the world was bracing for the fall of kyiv. well, i've just come from a visit to kyiv and i can report kyiv stands strong! [ cheers ] kyiv stands proud! it stands tall! and most important, it stands free! one year into this war, putin no longer doubts of strength of our coalition, but he still doubts our conviction. he doubts our staying power. he doubts our continuous support for ukraine and doubts we can remain unified in respect should be no doubt. our support for ukraine will not waver, nato will not tire. the united states and the

nations of europe do not seek to control russia. the west was not plotting to attack russia, as putin said today, and millions of russian citizens who only want to live in peace with their neighbors are not the enemy. this war is never a necessity, it's a tragedy. president putin chose this war. every day the war continues is his choice. he could end the war with a word. it's simple. if russia stopped invading ukraine it would end the war. if ukraine stopped defending itself against russia, it would be the end of ukraine. >> richard haass, you wrote a book about wars of choice, thought it was a brilliant line from the president saying, this is a war of choice. it's vladimir putin's choice, and he could end this war with

one word. and then this line -- "we will not tire." it is -- it is a message repeated from what he said in kyiv. we will stay here until the job gets done. what was your takeaway from the warsaw speech and the visit to kyiv? >> i thought the president framed it exactly right there, joe. it's a war of choice for putin. it's a war of necessity for the west, and i hi that's the distinction. i think the principle task for the president, and he alluded to it several times, was to persuade putin that time is not on his side. that is russia's strategy right now. clearly, the last year is not the year vladimir putin bargained for. every one of his assumptions proved faulty. can he regroup? splits emerge within ukraine obviously in the west, in the united states? and putin is banking on that, and i think the other thing he's perhaps hoping for is he gets more help from china, since the

chinese don't want to see him lose. they've made an enormous investment with him. woody allen's line 80% showing up, the president showing up important, one of the best speeches of higs presidency and forcefully delivered and the only thing i'd say, he can't accomplish it in a speech, joe, the proof will be in the pudding. the real question is over the next couple of years, do we demonstrate to the russians we actually have the staying power to provide the arms, to provide the economic support to ukraine and the only other sad thing about that is we're talking about years. i don't see anything in the last couple of days to suggest that this war is poised to end. i think we have to essentially prepare ourselves for a long war hopefully at a lower level of intensity, maybe not, but certainly for a long war in europe. pieces are not aligned for diplomacy here. >> and putin indicated any step back ward, he didn't indicate

this. president in poland today. coming back later this afternoon, but the secret visit to kyiv, they pulled off and the speech heard around the world especially in europe and here's at home. >> the secret trip to kyiv, pull off safely and provide powerful images and then the speech yesterday, feel like to admiral's point delivered effectively to a number of different audiences. work taking a second to reflect how far the war came in a year. president gave the exact same speech nearly a year ago. the first speech, just met with a group of ukraine refugee, somber feeling. kyiv still stood but concerns whether ukraine will be able to fight back against russia. he was imploring allies to say, hey, this is worth it. we need to be able to do this, but a somber feel a year ago. yesterday, it felt like a nato pep rally. flags everywhere. blue rights.

a sonde track of beyonce and springsteen before the president took the stage and a sense of accomplishment. that this had been a successful year, but the president's own words, joe, hard days are ahead, and to richard's point, though as ukraine has succeeded all expectations, and a year into this conflict, no sign it's going to endly intime soon and why a push from the president to all of these different audiences to keep it going, keep funds going, arms going, because putin shows no signs of stopping. >> we just really don't know and we don't know whether this war's going to last another six months or whether it's going to last several years, and so it remains an open question. but as a cia guy, you had to make assessments. i'm going to ask you to go back and, it is going to be pretty obvious assessment about what would have happened. what would have happened if donald trump had been elected

president? what would have happened in ukraine? you wrote about this in the "washington times". >> pretty extraordinary, because if donald trump won the election think about ukraine would be part of russia. nato alliance shattered. so elections really do matter. i think with biden's trip to europe, know, he is welcomed as not only frankly the savior of ukraine but also the savior of europe as a whole. joe, watching that speech yesterday all i could think of someone i think both of us admire. that's ronald reagan. that was a reaganesque speech for the ages ands they will really define biden's legacy. >> also, as we look at the success in one year, something i keep bringing up is the fact after the debacle in 2014 united states doubled down on training ukrainians. so much of what you're seeing right now, a bottom-up military, training about, within -- that started a long time ago. you could say the same thing

about the intel community. a lot of incredible things happening over the past year regarding u.s. intelligence to ukraine. that didn't just -- that just didn't happen two weeks before the war. that was a long time coming as well. >> right, joe. i call this, putting in the plumbing. that means bilateral intelligence relationships you build over time. not necessarily the sexy part of, of the intelligence world, but what is it? it's training. it's assistance. it's building one thing. personal relationships and trust. >> right. >> don't think on february 22nd of last year a phone call was made to langley, come right now. >> no. >> these were relationships built over years and years are being with our ukraine partners and indispensable. that's what we do overseas. >> admiral, if we don't take a step back one year, i don't know if we can. that's my way of saying we're

going to talk a step back a second. a year ago you and i talked about and i think other right-thinking people were talking about the importance not letting putin aggression stand because of the message it would send to china. i was called a warmonger, neocon and these other things, broke my heart. i almost considered quitting -- i'm joking -- and so we look a year later, you can can't talk to anybody in foreign policy. you can't talk to anybody in the intel community. you can't talk to anybody that knows a damn thing about, about global politics that doesn't say, china has been frozen by america's response, and they understand that suddenly the idea of walking into taiwan is going to be a bloody, messy, ugly deal, and they don't have a

single chinese general that has ever gone into battle with one bullet shot their direction. >> yeah. let's put yourself in president xi's shoes right now. you're looking at this debacle your best friend forever signed you up for right before the plimps last year, remember, that feels like a million years ago, and you're president xi and you are asking yourself three questions. number one, are my generals as bad as those russian generals appear to be? the answer, is, you don't know. you made the point. china hasn't been in major year in 70, 80 years. so the generals have been trained in that same old, broken soviet-style of war. so question one. are my generals that bad? and question two -- >> by the way, admiral, frankly before you get to two, talk about the united states experience over the past 20 years. things have been ugly. tragically we lost over 4,000

people in iraq and afghanistan at the same time fighting for 20 years. we have -- we have learned things about warfare, about urban conflict that no other military on the planet knows, and -- that is, again, in marked contrast to china. >> it is. and in particular, recall, it's 20 years of war. we are a highly blooded army, as we say, but so are our european colleagues. they came to afghanistan and fought alongside us. look at the capabilities of the entire coalition, they are profound, and then when you add as mark just did the intelligence alongside it, you put it all together, yes. we have a great deal of capability, and, no, russia doesn't, and china, it's a big question mark for xi. quickly, the other two questions are, question two is, hey, i wonder if those taiwanese will

fight like hell? the way the ukraines have? again, the answer is, i don't know. i've been in taiwan. met with mad um madam sy and her team. and looking at economics saying, hmm. my company. it's too big to sanction, right? well -- let's wait and see, and could we do precision guidance sanctions, increase what we have? perhaps. so it's a lot of uncertainty. i'll close with this, president xi is a patient person someone who spend seven years on a farm shoveling manure. there is more deterrence today than a year ago. that's a good thing. >> and china is struggling a little here as it tries to walk this line. china's top diplomat was in

moscow yesterday he meti the secretary security council saying moscow backs the decision on china and taiwan calling the relationship with moscow rock solid and added it would withstand any test. richard haass, this diplomat from china not just in moscow, on a tour of europe essentially strengthening ties there, need europe fon the economy, on the other hand trying to keep russia in its pocket as well. how does it walk that line? >> it's walking that line and continues to buy energy from russia. my guess is getting all sorts of non-lethal military support from russia. the real question whether they're prepared to give lethal military support. my hunch is they're doing it an extremist. xi jinping cast his lot with vladimir putin. he cannot afford to lose.

decreases american readiness over time and chinese look at us, a competition going on between democrats and republicans who can be tougher and harder on china. i don't believe tliz an upside to u.s./chinese relations. showing strength, they think zero war and what more are we going to penalize them. they're arrogant on us. they think the west needs them too much economically, for example, the big recent german car deals, to export, build things in china and believe if they can somehow separate themselves a little, more self-reliant but maintain our dependence on access to their markets, they think they can manage this relationship. so -- you know, my view is, china's not going to help us here. talk of a chinese plan, i believe empty. idea they're going to be a significant help. we have to be careful in this. >> and the united states has accused china of supplying russia with russia, ammunition and things like that. >> u.s. rhetoric towards china,

tougher in recent days. you heard secretary blinken warning china, they fear lethal weapons may be heading from beijing to moscow, that beijing already picked up the pace of non-lethal assistance against the backdrop of this spy balloon and intense meeting with secretary of state blinken and chinese counterpart and blunkening made clear, joe, no apology offered. unrepentant and unwilling to change its relationship with moscow in spite of all the sanctions that could come. >> a series of cell phones over the past four, five years, driving out some of their best entrepreneurs. their economy is slowing down. they've made one mistake after another. and so, i mean, they can be as arrogant as they want. the fact is they need the west more than the west needs them.

and so -- that's one of the reasons why you saw china the top diplomat trying to strike a balance. why they wanted to meet, why xi was going to meet with our secretary of state, which was unusual. you know, i understand what richard's saying, but i also understand that things -- you know, china has a growing middle class. a lot of other things going badly for them, and at some point a country that spends more money on holding their own people down and that they do on -- on national security, they understand. there's going to be a reckoning if they can't grow this economy faster than it's growing right now. >> so, joe, i think something is interesting here. you see almost a conventional wisdom in washington in policies that china is either preparing for or going to attack taiwan. i wonder if we should question that exactly for the reasons

laid out. no real impetus to do that because of the internal struggles going on with the chinese, with the economy. we have to be careful and talk to them. the balloon incident, screwed up the bilateral relationship. that's really important. messaging that comes from the united states not only our embassy in beijing but leading u.s. national security figures and dialogue with the chinese will help in a variety of issues including what? including in ukraine. chinese have influence over russia and vladimir putin. when we have these discussions on escalation, would russian, president vladimir putin use a tactical nuclear weapon, no better individual to put pressure on the russians than president xi. >> right. mika, i spoke with jon huntsman when he was ambassador to china, i said what does the chinese communist party want?

he said 9% growth. i laughed. what do you mean? he goes, 9% growth, because their belief is when it becomes 5% growth, 4% growth, 3% growth, they can't keep their middle class down. and -- and that's why china can -- again, i -- i don't know, richard. maybe we'll have this debate later. china can be as arrogant as they want to be, but they need europe. they need the west. they need at least six, seven, eight percent growth or they've got internal problems. >> joe, two things. i think they understand they're never going back to 6%, 7% 8% been at 3% probably up to 5% after covid. it's not sustainable. lots of issues. the entire strategy is based on the idea almost like russia with energy in europe's see how this

plays out. make not just europe also japan, taiwan, south korea and others so economically dependent on them that serious sanctions are not in the offing. >> but, richard, supports my position. supports my position. putin tried to use energy and it backfired on him. all you do when you cut off -- cut off europe's energy supply, if you're russia, is all you do is make europe go, okay. figure out a better place to get energy and then -- go ahead. >> much more profound in terms of the scale how comprehensive. a place like taiwan. 40% of their gdp dependent on exports to the mainland. thinking they can make these -- taiwan and other countries so dependent it will make them think twice about economic sanctions. again, trying to make themselves

selectively more self-reliant. not arguing your basic point. china has real difficulties, i don't think a move against taiwan is imminent. the other hand not saying we might not see something, not an all-out invasion but some type of sanctions over the next five years. you'd have to be an optimist to the think that wouldn't happen. thank you to you both very much for being on this morning. >> the grieco ligs. >> yes! yes. absolutely. >> the greek coalition. and trouble for former president trump, what the fore woman of the special grand jury investigating election 2020 interference in georgia is saying about possible indictments. plus a look at the different strategies some republican white house hopefuls are using when it comes to dealing with donald trump. also ahead, a live report from ohio where the company behind that toxic train

derailment is facing new legal action. and a look at the morning papers including a new effort in one state to offer firearm safety training in schools. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. ♪ customize and save. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (psst psst) ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good.

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if your business kept on employees through the pandemic, getrefunds.com can see if it may qualify for a payroll tax refund of up to $26,000 per employee. all it takes is eight minutes to get started. then work with professionals to assist your business with its forms and submit the application. go to getrefunds.com to learn more. oh! look at that beautiful shot of capitol hill on this, is it wednesday morning? someone help me out here. okay. >> yes it is wednesday. i can confirm. >> yes. good to know. almost there, guys. joining us now, a member of the "new york times" editorial board mara gay and attorney and contributing columnist for the "washington post" joins us.

potential 2020 election interference by former president donald trump is speaking out. emily course can say too much because recommended the grand jury indicting more than a dozen people. sounds like a lot being reveal and that many of the names of recognizable. she gave her first television interview to nbc's blayne alexander. watch. >> reporter: how people? was this a long list. >> it's not a short list. i'm trying really hard to be careful with that, because the judge had a hearing on the report, i'm sure you know, and chose specifically to not release the list of people, and to only release the certain portions of the report, and i do not want to imply in any way that my judgment is better than the judge. so i've been trying to be really careful with that. i will tell you it's not a short

list. i mean, we saw 75 people, and there's six pages of the report cut out, i think, if you look at page numbers. so -- it's not -- >> reporter: we're talking about more than a dozen people. >> i would say that, yes. >> reporter: did the grand jury recommend an indictment of former president trump. >> i'm not grog to speak on exact indictments. >> reporter: would we be surprised? are there bombshells of who is -- >> i don't think -- i don't think that there are any giant plot twists coming. i don't think that there are any, like -- giant -- that's not the way i expected this to go at all. i don't think that's -- in store. for anyone. >> reporter: so nothing that would surprise people who have been following this?

>> probably not. i wouldn't want to characterize anyone else's reaction, of course, but said a lot in testimony, but probably not. it probably wouldn't shock you. i would not -- expect you to be phoo shocked, no. >> reporter: that includes the former president. >> potentially. it might. >> oh, my god. >> hmm. >> joe, i'm -- just -- taken away. i don't even know what to say. i'm so -- i -- >> willie, the judge says don't talk. >> yeah. >> i mean -- that's talking going on right there. i mean, she didn't get specific. >> oh, my. >> you know? you know? didn't get specific. but, yeah. what did you think, willie? what did you think? >> how dare you punt to me? punted on the third down, joe.

a quick kick. >> second down, i'm like, i don't want this. i'm going to shank this one to you, baby! >> well, here's what i'll say and we'll get george conway in for another punt. it wasn't just our interview with blayne alexander who good a great job, also a media tour for the floor person. core interviewed by print outlets "the atlantic journal constitution" rolled her eyes and laughed when told former president trump called the partial release of their report "a total exoneration." the paper writes, did he really say that, she asked? that's fantastic. phenomenal. i love it. a quote from her. fulton county district attorney fani willis convened the grand jury may of last year, ended last month. the grand jury's full report will be made public when the investigation is concluded. start with you, george, from a

legal point of view, how helpful to have the foreperson of the grand jury doing a media tour? we haven't heard from former president trump yet. >> first of all, the reporter asked, are any of the defendants who are interested in a tangerine? but, it's not helpful. it absolutely isn't helpful and will give the defendants something to shoot at, and something to complain about, but end of the day, i think this is just a comic relief, because first of all, the evidence is the evidence. this isn't even the grand jury that is going to pass on the indictments. this is just, this was a grand jury designed to prepare a report. it did prepare a report and what she told us, a few interesting tidbits and hints there, wasn't all that much in the grand scheme of thing. we could have surmised there were a number of people being

indicted and she said no major flot twists. well, okay. i don't expect there to have been any major plot twists. and at the end of the day, you know, when these cases, a grand jury, secrecy is violated it usually doesn't affect the trial because the trial end of the day is whether or not you prove guilt within a reasonable doubt in the greater case. >> and in the course the grand jury forewoman said heard a lot of recording of president trump on the phone. amazing how hours of footage you can find of that man on the phone. leading to that infamous phone call with secretary of state raffensperger fine more than 11,700 votes needed to flip the state of georgia. >> all says seems fairly obvious. what the grand jury would be focused on because obviously president of the united states at least in the opinion of the

secretary of state of georgia, republican, who supported donald trump previously saying that it was obvious the president wanted him to rig the election. but george conway, just talking about how this grand jury works in georgia, they don't make the actual indictment. they make recommendations and then fani willis will make the decision whether or not to make an indictment or not. while i don't think this was a good thing that are the foreperson came out and started talking like it, the legal impact of that at the end of the day on whether an indictment comes or not is -- is minimal, because you've got fani willis making that decision herself and nobody else. >> right. not only that, she has to present it to another grand jury. another grand jury has to vote on it and i don't think think any argument that the defendantless have that they were prejudiced by this interview. she didn't release that much

information. the fact of the matter is most of the evidence, 99% of the evidence we know about, we knew about already from the release of the raffensperger tape and then the january ofth hearings. there's going to be no argument that the jury of decider of fact is prejudiced in any way. just no -- there's just nothing -- it's not going to help the defendants any. >> timeline, though, on this moving to the next phase. what are we looking at? >> i'm going to take fani willis at her word that it's imminent. imminent doesn't -- i mean, some people say imminent means tomorrow but in the next couple months. >> ah. >> i think she has to do it in the next couple months. clear she amassed the evidence that she needs. >> yeah. >> and there's no reason to wait. it's been two years already. >> yeah. all right. the supreme court heard roughly three hours of oral arguments yesterday on whether youtube should be held responsible for the videos it suggests and

promotes through its algorithm. the case concerns the killing of an american college student studying abroad in paris in 2015 when killed in an attack carried out by isis. plaintiffs in the case argue youtube is partially responsible for enabling the attack that killed gonzalez by recommending isis videos and others promoting violent ideology. the question at hand surrounds the legal shield known as section 230, which protects internet companies from legal action over content that is published on their platforms. chief justice john roberts and justices elena kagan and ketanji brown jackson yesterday called into question whether section 230 also shields companies when they recommend content, suggesting social media companies may be interpreting the rule too broadly.

however, a majority of the justices seemed inclineded to side with youtube's parent company google in the case but some arguing if the court sides with the plaintiffs it would open a floodgate of lawsuits. the court will hear arguments in a similar case regarding twitter later this morning with decisions in both cases likely to come in june. george, i'm curious. saying that a floodgate of lawsuits would open up, why does that matter? i mean, if something is right or wrong, are you -- are you making it a decision based on, oh, boy, this would be messy? oh, boy, this would prompt lawsuits. well, of course it would. >> yes. i mean, i think when judges go about these kind of things they to look at the consequences but i think the justices were looking first and foremost at the language of the statute. the statute is pretty, at least one sentence that matters is pretty broad. basically says you get content from somewhere else it's not

your. it's someone else's. >> that's right. >> the fact they may have to, they may recommend some things or put some things higher than others, well, that's the only way you can function. all websites have to do that, or else you'd never be able to find anything. wouldn't be usable. i think the justices for all the disclaimers that they made about not really understanding the internet, because they're old people, they got that. ip think that's the point made in google's brief quite well. >> joe, might be a job for congress, but is there an appetite to deal with it? >> no. this is john roberts' court, the same john roberts that said, don't ask me to change obamacare and get rid of obamacare from the court this year when you can do the same thing in the voting both next year. and i think that's what they're going to do with section 230 as well. the roberts' court will say, don't ask us to step in and do

congress' job for them. if you want to amend it, if you want to change it, that's fine. i will say the one part that is fascinating is, this algorithm question. if social media companies are pushing people to violent content, that's -- that does seem to gob beyond the scope of what 230 intended, and we've seen it time and again. we saw it during the black lives matter protests. i believe the guy in oakland that saw something online, if i'm not mistaken, went to a hate group and then went to an oakland courthouse and shot a guard. we saw it happening there. we saw it on january the 6th. people that were going on to certain areas, certain chat rooms, and then they were pushed to, whether it was white supremacy sites or whether it was neo-nazi sites, that seems to be, again, going well beyond the scope of 230. so it will be fascinating to see

how the court crazies that. i do want to ask you, though, mara, about, something that's always bothered me about section 230. and i guess i -- i have to admit here that i voted for it. like, back -- like in the ice age. i think it was 1996, because you didn't want, like, little internet companies that had comments down at the bottom getting in trouble if somebody put a comment at the end of a blog post, and so obviously things exploded, though, and you've got these multibillion dollar corporations that make money off of hate speech. that make money off of allowing people to spread lies to millions and millions of people. and do the sort of things if the "new york times" did it, they would, the "times" would be put out of business. the idea that this is 1996 and we're talking about you've got

mail or compuserve is completely asinine. isn't it time for congress to start holding mark zuckerberg and elon musk and other owners of these, these corporations, just to the same standard that everybody else is held to? why do we carve things out for -- i would have said jack dorsey before and i did say that a couple years ago. this is -- it's just insanity that we're allowing these billion dollar corporations to, to have an exemption that nobody else has. >> you know, joe, you're making a powerful case here that the law, maybe it just is out of date. i mean, listening to you talk about the way you were thinking about it when it was enacted is reason enough. you're right. the internet has changed. the world has changed, but this is one of those areas of american exceptionalism, too, other democracies look at us and say why can't you figure this

out? one reason, a broad first amendment issue. the world changed, the problem. to your point, joe, now companies are actually not journalistic organizations disseminating information, some of it factual, some dangerous. some hate speech, and they are, essentially, they have no responsibility for the consequences of that. we have this central tension and it's easy to get wonky. we all know what section 230 is. for americans sitting a the home, what responsible for youtube, google or facebook have if promoting hate speech on their platforms? the average american would say they should have some, but legally say they should have so but legally that's a harder case to make, and i don't have an answer for it. but it's just to say that i don't think we can allow it to go on as it has where there's no consequences and people can make money, in fact, to your point. >> right.

>> while disseminating this information that is tearing the country apart. and by the way, providing disinformation. and in some cases has made us very endangered, like with january 6th. so there's real consequences to this. and i hope the court realizes that. >> and by the way, i say this as a free market conservative, corporations should be able to do what corporations should want to do. but they have to live by the law. and if they are negligent, or if they do things that harm other people, they can be taken into court. they shouldn't be shielded from this. mara, let me ask you, what if the "new york times" started prints after paul pelosi got attacked that he got attacked because it was advertise gay lover, or gay prostitute that he'd been entangled for years and it was all a scam and the police were in on it, and

that -- all of this garbage, that by the way a lot of people were putting on facebook. a lot of people were putting out on social media. what would happen to the "new york times"? >> i mean, our lawyer would be very busy, nothing good would happen at the "new york times." we wouldn't do that, number one. because journalism organizations do hold themselves to a higher standard. but also, we don't have those same legal protections because it is our content, and the law considers it to be our content. that is the difference here, the distinction legally. but i think given the world we live in, it's not entirely clear, i'm not a lawyer, that that distinction is meaningful when you have the kind of large scale hate speech that you do, and you also have consumers who they don't necessarily know, they're not aware that this isn't youtube's content. they're not making those distinctions. how is this actually functioning the real world? >> george conway, really

quickly, very personal to us, i don't bring it up because i'm bothered by it, i bring it up because to let our viewers though, this is what happens to people. donald trump called me a murderer 12 times. >> yeah. >> we talked to twitter. we talked to people at twitter. i'm like, hey dude, this guy, you know, he's lying to me, he's got 60 million followers. and this is being spread around to hundreds of millions of -- you know it's a lie, and i know it's a lie. you're making money off of the traffic that it's generating. take it down. no, we can't take it down. and so as -- that went on over and over again 12 times. this idea, again, you take that, where this multi-national corporation is making billions and billions of dollars. even though i thought it was funny elon musk said he purchased the -- what did he

say? he said i spent $44 billion purchasing the biggest nonprofit ever, kind of a funny lie. i liked that one. but they're making billions and billions of dollars, like jack dorsey was. they let this guy lie 12 times, because they're afraid to cross him. and they were terrified to cross him. and that is so far away from how -- what we voted on in 1996 where we didn't want a little blog post about airport traffic, like being sued, because somebody put a comment at the bottom. come on, congress needs to change this law. doesn't it? >> absolutely. and it has to be congress. i mean, judges -- when judges get into trying to figure out the right policy to fix something that congress didn't completely fix, the judges get -- they get lost. and they don't really have a mandate to do it. and it's congress's job to do

it. although, you know, i know confidence in congress is at an all-time low. >> it's got its problems. >> there is some middle ground here to be had, i mean, you know, this is -- there is some middle ground between the -- between the compuserv comments at the bottom of the page and dominion's lawsuit against fox where they're going to be held liable. it's like that "new york times" hypothetical we were just talking about. and like the -- if twitter were a news organization, that's what it would have been the same case. >> right. >> the accusations made against you. >> george, let me ask you, do you think -- do you think fox, you brought up fox and dominion, we saw the article, and we saw the brief at least a couple days ago, everybody's asking me. i don't know the answer. do you think at the end of the day fox does get held liable? they're probably going to have to settle this? how strong of a case does

dominion have against fox? >> i litigated a libel case once, the phillip morris aib libel case in the '90s. we thought we had good stuff and the case ultimately settled with a primetime apology on world news tonight and monday night football to phillip morris and they paid our legal fees. and we had decent evidence. but nothing like this. nothing where they were just writing out, saying this is false, where the ceo or the owner, like rupert murdoch was basically saying this is not good. >> right. >> you know, i took -- deposition in that case and he didn't know anything about it. we just didn't have that kind of evidence. it was more, you know, saying that the reporter went out of over skis -- the producer went out over her skis than anything else. it was just a different kind of case. >> interesting, so all right,

we'll just see what happens. george conway and mara gay, thank you very much for being on this morning. alarming accusations are surfacing at a nebraska meat packing plant where federal investigators say a sanitation company used migrant children in a dangerous job cleaning equipment situation. nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley joins us with those details ahead on "morning joe." the bos. if i hadn't seen it in person, i wouldn't have believed it. eating is believing steph. the subway series. try subway's tastiest menu upgrade yet. you know, there's a thousand billionaires in america, it■s up from about 600 at the beginning of my term. but no billionaire should be paying a lower tax rate than a schoolteacher or a firefighter. i mean it! think about it.

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president putin's crave and lust for land and power will fail. and the ukrainian people's love for their country will prevail. democracies of the world will stand guard over freedom today, tomorrow, and forever. >> president joe biden in warsaw. welcome back to "morning joe," it is wednesday, february 22nd. jonathan lemire and richard haas still with us.

what a day for president biden. the world stage was lit up by strength for nato, strength for ukraine, strength for poland. it was a day of unity. >> an extraordinary couple of days. it continues today. president biden wrapping up that historic trip to eastern europe. yesterday he gave that speech in warsaw, marking one year since the russian invasion to ukraine. following monday's surprise visit to kyiv where he became the first modern american president to step foot in an active war zone where u.s. troops were not on the ground. before he flies back to washington this morning president biden will meet with eastern european nato allies to give a response from -- meeting with ukraine. foreign correspondent josh lederman joins us, what was it like yesterday? >> reporter: it was a celebratory atmosphere here in warsaw as president biden gave that speech. a lot of folks who were watching it, both here and back at home in the united states, drew comparisons to a campaign rally

of sorts. while this was not, of course, an official kickoff for president biden's expected reelection campaign, it certainly had the sense of a bit of a victory lap as president biden is trying to take credit for the fact that he has been able, alongside these european allies, to really hold that western coalition, fighting for those values of democracy and freedom that he talks about, together over the course of the year, despite all of those concerns about fatigue, despite the expectation from president putin that the west was going to falter in its support for ukraine. the white house estimated there were about 30,000 people who attended his speech here in poland, a country that is both very pro u.s., and also very pro joe biden with his approval rating for his handling of global conflicts here at about 82% according to the recent polling from pew. but president biden, in his speech, while the white house

said it was not a direct rebuke to president putin's speech in moscow a few hours earlier, it certainly had that feel has biden tried to push back very directly on president putin's assertion it was the west to blame for this conflict. here's how president biden responded to that sent element. take a listen. >> president putin is confronted with something today that he didn't think was possible a year ago. the democracy of the world have grown stronger, not weaker. but the autocrats of the world have grown weaker, not stronger. and let there be no doubt the commitment of the united states to our nato alliance and article 5 is rock solid. and every member of nato knows it. and russia knows it as well. an attack against one is an attack against all. it's a sacred oath. sacred oath to defend every inch

of nato territory. that's our responsibility. the democracy of the world have to deliver it for our people. >> reporter: president biden also using that speech to announce that new sanctions will be coming later this week on russia, not only from the u.s., but also from its allies here in europe. biden also announcing that next year the united states will host a nato summit inviting all of the members of the alliance to the united states to mark the 75th anniversary of the founding of the alliance. president biden will finish his trip to poland here today with a meeting with the bucharest 9, a group of nato allies on the eastern flank, on russia's doorstep, the baltic nations, romania and the others, including moldova, which has been raising concerns about a possible russian attempt to overthrow their government. biden will use that meeting to make clear that u.s. support is not just for ukraine, but also from those other countries who

really feel like they could be threatened next if president putin were to have a school districtry -- visit in ukraine. there will be no victory for russia in ukraine. >> josh lederman in warsaw, the president will be leaving soon and heading back home. thanks for your coverage on this trip. richard, let's talk about the last couple of days for the president, a study of contrast. walking the streets of kyiv, alongside president zelenskyy, a place putin thought he would be walking freely and yesterday these dueling contrasting speeches, president putin first, defending the war, making wild claims about who's actually responsible for the aggression in ukraine. and then the president making this rally, effectively, this speech, where he's -- there are american flags being waved, ukrainian flags, polish flags, where he is standing up for democracy, standing up for freedom and making a statement to russia and the world that the united states and europe will

not back down from this. >> this is the signature foreign policy moment in -- for this -- and issue for this administration, and i thought the president in some ways separated himself both from his immediate predecessor, we've gone from america first to alliance first. this is an allies-based american foreign policy, big difference. but also from barack obama. we're not leading from behind here. we're leading from ahead. and very big difference there. this is a much more assertive united states, prepared to project power. >> yeah. >> again, i think joe and others mentioned it before, echoes in some ways jfk, echoes of regan, echoes of '41 after sadaam invaded kuwait. the acquisition of territory by force would turn the world into the rule of the jungle, we cannot allow it to succeed here or it could potentially succeed elsewhere. i actually think this is a defining moment of the biden foreign policy. >> you know, i'm so glad, richard, that you brought up 41.

because that's who i was thinking of. you had, of course, 43, george w. bush, who while he put together a large coalition when he went into iraq the second time, there was always a feeling that it was sort of a go it alone. you're either with us, or you're against us. and then with barack obama his administration was a reaction, of course, to the excesses of the bush administration. and then of course donald trump, who wanted to blow nato apart. so you're so right. this is a return with biden this is a return to more of a george h.w. bush, harry truman approach, where you try to put your arms around as many allies as possible, bring them into a coalition, work on it slowly bit by bit. by the way. one of those three presidents,

truman, and 41, and biden have in common, creatures of washington, right? they understood -- they understood -- >> yes. >> -- the importance of relationships, they understood the importance of working together with others. and it's made -- as it did then, it has made now, richard, all the difference in the world for joe biden. >> you used to phrase working with others internationally in terms of coalitions and partners and alliances. we're doing it in europe. we're effectively beginning to do it in asia, particularly with japan, australia, south korea, and others. but also domestically. the idea that you have mitch mcconnell and you had this house delegation in kyiv, you know, we focus a lot on the fringes. but we've actually got a fairly robust, bipartisan majority here, a working majority that i actually think has a little bit of legs to it. so i think working with others abroad, working with others at

home, this is actually an important, almost return, to what we used to think was american foreign policy. i actually think this has repercussions, really positive ones, beyond the immediate issue, which obviously has enormous stakes. >> and that picture, as we explained last hour, that's michael mccaul from texas, the chairman of the foreign affairs committee who is not only -- not only -- not echoing pro-putin lines, and not providing aid and comfort to the enemy like some members of the gop, you actually have chairman mccall calling for more missiles for ukraine, falling for f-16s, calling for a more robust approach to pushing back against russia. that is, of course, well a more traditional republican approach. that's an approach that i grew up, when -- with when i was in the republican party. and it is certainly not what

we're seeing from certain parts of the party. let's bring in to talk about this much more national affairs analyst, john highland, producer of showtime's the circus, and he's also in warsaw this morning. we just passed this off as mitch mcconnell and chairman mccall being pro democracy cold warriors against a bunch of back benchers, the people were talking about mpg is a person who, of course, helped make mccarthy, speaker of the house, and then you have donald trump who says he's going to run basically as a peace nick, a pro-putin peace nick who, you know, wanted to blow nato apart. and you also have ron desantis who much to the surprise of the bucharest 9 and the countries that you visited, and i'm sure the leader of estonia would have

something to say about desantis's remarks earlier this week that vladimir putin poses no risk, no threat to his neighbors. that's quite a divide in the republican party and you'll notice that two of those people that i mentioned, with these extreme positions, these -- i would say almost pro-putin positions when you say putin doesn't pose a risk. those are the two leading candidates for the republican nomination for president of the united states. >> well, yeah, they are, and i'd say even beyond that, i mean, if you were to line up marjorie taylor greene and mitch mcconnell among republican voters marjorie taylor greene is by far a more popular figure, i don't just mean in northwest georgia, but around the country, marjorie taylor greene represents a much larger chunk of the republican party at this point than mitch mcconnell does, i'm sure mitch mcconnell doesn't want to hear that, but mitch

mcconnell has certain strengths, but he's not enormously popular within the republican party. he'd probably be 2% in a national republican poll. this is not a trivial part of the republican party, it's a big part of the republican base, part of what's become of the republican party, if we want to call this the trump era or post-trump era, either one. nativism, isolationism, withdrawal from the world, withdrawal from american exceptionalism, not kind of the traditional, both republican and democratic, the kind of traditional bipartisan view about what america's role in the world is, which i would say these images we've seen of biden and his performance over the last two days, both in kyiv and then here in warsaw, he kind of exemplifies that. joe biden is not perfect, but if you think about the traditional view of what america's role in the world should be, these images that we've seen, the things he's said, the positions he's taken, those are the things that for a lot of americans are

kind of like, yeah, that's what an american president should be doing, that's what america should be in the world. >> it's lemire, to your buoyant, biden administration, they feel really good about the last couple days and they feel secure about ukraine funding for a while. thanks to the deal struck by the end of last year. but they know this will be an issue, the republicans at a certain point, the minority, growing louder, will raise objections to keep funding. speak about the atmosphere where you are now. that's sort of been the question that's been hanging over all of us from the allies. yes, they feel like america is back but they wonder for how long. you know, whether it's the republican house blocking funding from the road, or perhaps the return of donald trump, or isolationist republican in 2024, that seems to be what putin's banking on too. >> i mean, look, jonathan, look, i was over at the president's hotel this morning talking to jake sullivan and, you know, this is on everybody's mind. it was the talk of the munich conference here in munich a week

ago where the two things are simultaneously true, it's extraordinary thing when you look back a year ago and what people in foreign policy establishment across the west thought of nato's strength, which is to say not very, thought of the likelihood that the alliance would fall apart at some point, high. that's what the perceptions were when biden -- when the war first started when biden came here back in march of last year, and now a year later, and biden trumpeted this in his speech last night. how amazing it's been the west is more unified. how putin was bidding on the finland sigs of nato, and fin natoization of finland. it's miraculous we are where we are with ukraine still in the fight. but no one who's wired into these discussions is wholly confident that this is without a

lot of work, that this is going to be -- that this is where we're going to be a year from now or two years from now. richard talked about this today, the biden administration is acutely aware on every front people have to buckle up and be ready for what could be a very long war, that's why all of these activities that biden has undertaken here have had multiple audiences, he's been talking to at the same time the ukrainian people, the european people, the american people, and vladimir putin, to try to basically make everyone understand the stakes of this, but also just how difficult and how resolute, and how -- how much stick to ittiveness is required in the accomplishment of the last year is going to last for some indeterminate period going into the future. >> it was really a momentous day. vladimir putin appeared to have this response in his address, and it was not good.

and some might even say it was chilling. is there any talk amongst white house officials about what vladimir putin did and said yesterday pulling out of treaties and making it very clear he's not backing down? >> well, i'll say, jake sullivan said to me this morning they are -- they are always vigilant about putin. they think about the nuclear threat every day. that's what jake said to me, the couple hours ago, but at the same time they don't think that vladimir putin was living up to the new star treaty to begin with. so on some level they looked at what he said yesterday and like they have every day for the last year worried about the possibility that this conflict could escalate and that the nuclear threat is always there. at the same time they never thought he was a good actor to begin with, they never thought he was living by the law of the new star treaty, for the last -- for the course of the past year or even before that. so there is, i would say that, you know, there is no -- there is no sense, you know, the

degree to which those dueling speeches yesterday, they keep saying it was not a direct -- biden's speech is not a direct response to putin. but in almost every way, biden has been, since last march when he made that comment that was widely kind of interpreted, sometimes overinterpreted as calling for regime change in russia, he made that speech back in poland march of last year at the end of his speech he ad libbed something about it. every since then biden is not afraid. he does not want to have a military conflict with russia, but he's not afraid of the ideological conflict or rhetorical conflict. he's taking the wood to vladimir putin from day one in this conflict and i don't see any sign they think there's eye upside in backing away from that level of toughness rhetorically. >> richard, final thought. it's difficult -- at times to agree with john, i thought he had it, though, exactly right. and the russian move on the nuclear issue was actually quite modest. you know, they're not going to

change the numbers. this agreement has four more years to run, after that there are questions anyhow, particularly about chinese participation. it doesn't cover other weapons systems. i thought what putin did was extraordinarily modest. taking a step back, i thought it was really good, i'm a worrier, i worry about two things, we lack in some ways the defense industrial base to pour out sufficient arms and ammunitions. so it is europe, the readiness issue, the economic issue. we talked about the politics. the other is, if the chinese or russians ever get smart here, they will put out some peace feelers. what worries me a little bit is the ability of western cohesion in the face of that. because what that could do is open up some of the splits within the west as to what do we mean by victory? >> yeah. >> what is essential here? it's not just a military struggle going ahead, it's a resource struggle, but it's also going to be a political struggle within the west to maintain

cohesion given these dynamics, not just militarily, but also diplomatically. >> and to further richard's points, of course while they're concerned about getting involved with nuclear weapons they thought putin's speech was modest, reflective of the cards he can play. not much he can do, without the bluster, suspending a treaty they weren't adhering to anyway. he's boxed in and doesn't have any moves to change the trajectory of this war. >> richard haas, thank you, and john heilemann, the new season of the circus premieres this sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern and pacific times. look forward to that, thanks, guys. still ahead on "morning joe," it's been nearly three weeks since that toxic train derailment in ohio, and now state and federal officials are taking action to hold the rail operator accountable. we'll get a live report in just a few minutes. plus, a whistle-blower says

a large sanitation company in nebraska employed migrant children to clean slaughter houses, and knowingly turned a blind eye for years. nbc's julia ainsley joins is next with more on that. former president trump has racked up millions in legal bills, we're bigging into new reporting about how exactly he's paying those bills. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back.

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child bay labor violations at a meat packing plant in nebraska. one company is accused of employing migrant children as young as 13 years old.

with more details, julia ainsley, what more can you tell us here? >> i traveled to nebraska to see this large meat packing facility, run by a company called pssi, they recently lost that contract because the labor department found that they were employing almost two dozen children to clean that facility overnight. the labor department widened their investigation and found more than 100 children employed by that contractor, mainly migrant children, working overnight, and going to school during the day. here's what we learned. alarming accusations about what happened inside this nebraska meat packing plant. migrant children like this boy who federal investigators say was put to work in a job that can be incredibly dangerous. could anybody mistake these children for adults? >> i don't think there's any mistaking these children for adults. >> reporter: investigators say the child workers arrived for their shift at night, many of them from central america.

they were employed by cleaning company packer sanitation services inc. to sanitize equipment inside the plant. pssi has 17,000 workers. of those investigators say the company employed more than 100 children aged 13 to 17, and 13 plants across eight states. last october labor investigators say they found nearly two dozen children, some as young as 13, working here, inside this massive slaughter house, cleaning up blood and animal parts in the overnight shift. nebraska immigrant advocate audrey lutz has been helping some of the child workers from guam who she says are scared to talk to us. i think these youth are afraid because they don't know the systems in this country that were meant to protect them, because those systems failed. >> reporter: we spoke to a former pssi manager, who asked that we conceal their identity. did you ever see kids, people who looked like kids, working inside these plants? >> yeah.

>> reporter: how young do you think they were? >> probably as young as 12. >> reporter: how did that strike you when you saw someone that young working a job like this? >> it kind of makes you sick. you walk through the plant, you can't walk through it without getting animal parts on you or blood all over you. >> reporter: the company disciplined an employee in 2021, according to an internal pssi report reviewed by nbc news. the employee who handled hiring for multiple plants was found to have hired the name known minor two separate times in the span of six months under two different names. the punishment, according to the document, a demotion, and a hiring policy review. were managers ever worried that they'd be disciplined for hiring children? >> no. >> reporter: the former manager says the more common outcome was to hold the frontline worker accountable. >> you just terminate the child -- terminate the undocumented worker. >> reporter: in december the company signed a consent decree

saying they would abide by child labor laws. pssi telling nbc news our company has a strong corporate commitment to our zero-tolerance policy against employing anyone under the age of 18 and fully shares the labor department's objective of ensuring full compliance at all locations and says they are taking steps to prevent individuals at the local level from circumventing our wide ranging procedures. shannon roboyado was the lead investigator for the labor department. how is this investigation different from what you've seen before? >> i've never seen child labor violations to this extent, the sheer number of kids that were working. i've never had an employer where the representative impeded my investigation like this, just so brazenly. >> reporter: so you can see there that roboyado said that pssi impeded her investigation. they said they waited more than an hour before they were allowed to serve a warrant at that nebraska meat packing plant. but pssi said they were fully

cooperative with the labor department investigation. but meanwhile, dhs is still investigating this incident. they are looking at possible human trafficking. it's not clear that the company itself is a target, but they're trying to figure out how so many migrant children ended up working at a meat packing plant in the first place. >> julia, talk about how this story took -- took off. >> it's interesting, we first heard labor was investigating. they made that public. and my producer lars struck ler really dogged on these issues, started investigating around it. we did a small story, news of day, we put that on our streaming platform, top story with tom yaw mas, and then because of tiktok, it took off. people saw the story and couldn't believe it was happening in the united states of america and we had 6 million views overnight. because of that we were able to find more people who could come forward, give us more evidence and of course we're constantly communicating what we're finding with the company so they can respond to it. but it shows how something can

really go viral and help with reporting, and get -- because of the american public's reaction, especially when it involves children. that really struck a cord. >> wow, that's remarkable, thank you so much, julia. greatly appreciate it. nbc news homeland correspondent, julia ainsley, you're very busy, you're going to the supreme court today? >> yeah, it's a busy day. that's why we work here, get to do a lot of things. >> keep on keeping on. >> miko, what's coming up? the aftermath of the toxic train derailment in ohio. nbc's jesse kirsch joins us live from east palestine straight ahead on "morning joe." fasenra is an add-on treatment for asthma driven by eosinophils. it helps prevent asthma attacks, improve breathing, and lower use of oral steroids. fasenra is not a rescue medication or for other eosinophilic conditions. fasenra may cause allergic reactions. get help right away if you have swelling of your face, mouth and tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop your asthma treatments unless your doctor tells you to. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection

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i was focused on just making sure that our folks on the ground were all set, but could have spoken sooner about how strongly i felt about this incident, and that's a lesson learned for me. >> transportation secretary pete buttigieg yesterday, when asked

if he should have spoken out sooner about the train derailment along the pennsylvania-ohio border that caused a toxic chemical spill, residents continue today to worry about their health and the quality of the air and the water. now state and federal officials are taking action to hold the rail operator, norfolk southern, accountable. joining us from east palestine, ohio, nbc news correspondent jesse kirsch, jesse, what's the latest? >> reporter: mika, good morning. the potential legal battles here are intensifying. pennsylvania's governor says his office has made a criminal referral, meanwhile, the epa vowing it will literally make norfolk southern pay for the damage it's done. as east palestine residents continue questioning their safety following that toxic derailment blaze this morning the environmental protection agency vowing the norfolk southern alone will pay.

>> norfolk southern will be held accountable. >> reporter: the legally binding order requires norfolk southern to reimburse epa for cleaning homes and businesses. >> we are making it very clear that norfolk southern will clean up the soil, will clean up the water. >> reporter: in a rare interview tuesday with cnbc norfolk southern's ceo promising his company is working with government officials, and will clean up the area. >> we've made a lot of progress so far. we've removed about 450 cubic yards of contaminated soil. we're going to continue our financial assistance to the residents of this community. >> reporter: the company says it's reimbursed or committed $6.5 million so far. the ramped up enforcement comes nearly three weeks after the derailment which sent toxic material into this small community about 50 miles from pittsburgh. >> it is my view the norfolk southern was going to do this out of the goodness of their own heart. there's not a lot of goodness in there. they needed to be compelled to act. >> reporter: meanwhile the department of transportation

calling for freight rail reforms, including increased staffing requirements, higher maximum fines and safety inspections on routes with high hazard flammable trains, president biden speaking with officials on the ground while in europe saying he reaffirmed his commitment to making sure they have everything they need and calling the devastation years of opposition to safety measures coming home to roost. as a new medical clinic opened in east palestine some residents are skeptical the railroad will be held responsible. >> if it's to the politicians, no, they're going to buy their way out of it. >> reporter: even as state and federal officials drink from the tap to stress the water is safe. >> we're in this for the long run, it's just our commitment. >> reporter: officials say that there are still tests being done on private well water, recommending that people waiting for those results drink bottled water for the time being, still lots of uncertainty here with former president donald trump expected to make a visit later

today. willy? >> jesse, we've heard and seen now the public confidence from elected officials, from the epa about the quality of the drinking water and the air there. how are real people who live there feeling about going back to their houses, about drinking that water themselves, without options to go off and live somewhere else until this is cleared up? >> reporter: you know, willy, frankly, lots of unanswered questions here for those residents. it's a small community. we have seen people who have left town while this has unfolded. some people saying they are permanently leaving, they will not come back. and minutes ago we heard from a gentleman over here who says he's currently building a new facility here and he wonders if anyone is going to want to use it because of what has happened here, willy. >> nbc's jesse kirsch in east palestine, ohio. former president donald trump is going on the offensive against the man many say is his biggest threat to securing the

2024 republican primary nomination. florida governor ron desantis on social media yesterday. trump ripped desantis for the crowd size at an event he spoke at in new york city this week, calling it, quote, small and unenthusiastic. he also blasted fox news for covering the event while ignoring a recent rally of his own. in a second post, trump unveiled the new nickname for desantis, ron desanctus. >> it's a boston red sox of political nicknames, not going far this year. >> lemire, it's not going to be meatball. >> meatball, ron -- >> meatball dead filed. >> he thought ron was the winner. >> it's not going to be used in this way. >> why is that? >> meatball? >> why is he not using meatball.

>> joe, would you like to talk about your experience at the miami international airport? >> oh. >> no, i really wouldn't. >> i would just like to say for you, thanks, ron desantis. >> i do have to say this, speaking -- >> yes. >> so obviously, willy, when we go to the miami international airport -- >> it's so bad. >> we say thanks, ron desant it. >> it's terrible. >> it's a joke. the whole conceit of the joke is, that people would like, during covid, people would -- >> i have covid, thanks, joe biden. >> people would go to the -- >> the gas pump. >> the pigly wiggly and there would be four brands of spaghetti, but not five. and they would look into their phone and go, thanks joe biden. so the whole conceit of it is, of course it's not ron desantis's fault that all the escalators -- >> he could do something. >> in miami international airport don't work, nothing works there. it's not his fault.

but we say it, making light of the people who would blame joe biden for, you know, only four brands of spaghetti sauce instead of five. post-covid. we got, actually, a letter, an official letter from a florida official explaining to us that it wasn't really ron desantis's fault. >> but he could do something. >> with the letter head and everything? wow. >> that's the whole joke. >> yes. >> i'm sitting there, thinking -- >> fabulous. >> so brit tam lynn -- did brit tamlin have somebody else send us an i love lamp letter? anyway, very, very funny. >> yes. >> miami-dade county is the jurisdiction there, as you've pointed out many times over the course of the long-running joke, it is a travesty, by the way, for a city as beautiful and by the way, cool, and forward looking as miami to not have an

airport that matches the vibe of the rest of the city. something white, sleek -- >> i thank him very much for the -- >> mika, thank you for that. >> disgusting experience at the airport. >> i think mika means it, whereas you're making a joke. >> she does. i keep explaining to her, mika, the ragu, you can't blame the ragu going out of publix in central florida on ron desantis. >> in trump's world, you can do anything you want. >> it is incredibly stupid, thanks, joe biden. >> it's so stupid. >> things that have nothing to do with boipd. we digress -- >> big time. >> charlie crist went on to praise charlie crist in the truth social thing. so i'm kind of -- i'm sort of evolving, you know, willie, i grow, i sort of evolve and grow and i'm doing it today. and while desantis is not in the

race, if donald trump keeps attacking him on small, stupid things like this, it actually makes donald trump look more desperate every single day. >> definitely. >> yeah. >> so desantis not responding when he's not an announced candidate actually looks like a pretty good play because, you know, trump can't even -- he goes from desanctimonious to meatball ron. >> don't you do that. >> to deasnctus. >> not my meatball. >> that's not even good. >> he's not even trying, joe. he's not even trying. >> willie? >> no, it's like he's workshoping in public. i want you to do the work in private and come to us when you've decided -- >> one could argue putting something on truth social is very private, considering how small his following is. >> you make a good point, john. >> oh, my god. >> but joe is right, that donald trump is behaving like the upstart. he was president of the united states. >> yeah. >> that's very worried about ron

desantis, governor desantis, who was in staten island, made this tour of philadelphia, and chicago, and other cities to talk about crime, which is strange for a governor of florida, who, unless you were going to run for president, that maybe makes some more sense. but he does, he's clearly, of all the people we've seen so far, flirting with or getting into the race, like nikki haley, it is ron desantis who is most on the mind of donald trump. >> this is what you do if you're -- if desantis is -- you're trying to elevate and that should be the opposite of what trump is trying to do. it's people around trump, look, desantis is the guy they're worried about. they see that the anti-trump movement seems at least for now is coalescing around desantis. could that change? kould desantis's support fall as he steps onto the national stage and get vetted and more voters get to know him. all of that is possible. desantis is the guy right now. the more trump lashes out i agree with joe, it looks panicky. >> looks like he's the guy. >> but it makes desantis more of the guy, like it just sort of -- >> dumb-dumb. >> it makes trump as if he's

narrowing down the race to one on one, when as we've discussed on the show frequently the best thing that could happen for trump would be if it was a large field. he should be attacking a bunch of folks, not just desantis. and not elevate him. >> yeah, and that's the thing. i mean, rule in politics, one of the first rules, especially if you're in a strong position you don't punch down. donald trump like you said, president of the united states, was president of the united states, you look at every poll, he's, i think, ahead in most polls in the republican party. every time he punches down at a guy that's below him in the polls, a guy who wasn't president of the united states. a guy who doesn't have the following that donald trump at least once had, he's just elevating him. and it's also -- you know, when he starts talking about crowd sizes, that immediately takes you back to south carolina. >> oh, no. >> where he was supposed to have have huge rally, it ended up being something where, people, and, you know, lindsey graham, a couple of hound dogs. >> unhappy people. >> i mean, it just wasn't --

yeah, it wasn't a happy people. >> when you look at the people on the stage you can tell the audience is no good, is small. >> well, well, okay, mika, okay, so thanks, ron desantis. but anyway, yeah, it just -- it doesn't -- the strategy doesn't really make any sense, does it? willie? >> no, it doesn't, and it does, you're right, that ron desant it, people say why is he punching back at donald trump. he doesn't have to. he looks like the bigger figure in this fight so far. >> he does. i think there is no strategy. i think a lot of it is reactionary, mika, donald trump as he did as a candidate and president and he's seeing something on fox news, he's reacting to it. that is right of these truth social posts as well, basically conducted in darkness, is that he's also been complaining about fox news covering desantis. that's part of this as well. setting him off. >> he's really triggered. up next, a new effort on capitol hill to prevent potentially thousands of southeast asian refugees from

being deported to countries they've never even visited. we'll have that new reporting. plus, with mortgage interest rates on the rise, hud secretary marcia fudge will join us to discuss the biden administration's new plan to help lower costs for home buyers. and before we go to break, i was lucky enough to join kelly clarkson. i watched with my girls, i watched her win "american idol" and now i got to be on her show to preview the upcoming forbes 3050 summit in abu dhabi less than two weeks away. we talked about international women's day and know your values mission to help women showcase their successes later in life, and also how to pay it forward to other women. kelly also asked me about a certain incident at camp david. back in the '70s, that sparked a diplomatic uproar. >> i hear that you and jim myrrh carter's daughter nearly caused an international incident, and i

really need to know what that is. >> several. okay, so the -- carter at camp david during the peace accord and we were trying to ride a golf cart and we were way underage to be driving anything and i hit the israeli prime minister with the golf cart. i didn't kill him, just nicked him. >> nicked him. >> so that was once, there were many disasters, we had the leader of china to our state for a state dinner in mclean, virginia at our farmhouse and i was serving caviar and i tripped and spilled it on his lap, and then i tried to wipe it off. and like the secretary of state was going, oh, just stop, just stop. disaster, after disaster. growing up practice sinzky. >> i love you so much right now. oh, my -- i loved you before, but you have grown in my heart. >> we also had a major surprise. that we will be showing -- i won't give it away on the kelly

clarkson today, it was a great moment, and very excited about the 3050 summit in abu dhabi. all you can -- you can find it all on the kelly clarkson show, check your local listings. >> she's awesome. >> he's really fun. really talented. >> so talented. >> we'll be back with much more, "morning joe." i think i'm ready for this. heck ya! with e*trade you're ready for anything. marriage. kids. college. kids moving back in after college. ♪ finally we can eat. ♪ you know you make me wanna...♪ and then we looked around and said, wait a minute, this isn't even our stroller! (laughing) you live with your parents, but you own a house in the metaverse? mhm. cool...i don't get it. here's to getting financially ready for anything! and here's to being single and ready to mingle. who's ready to cha-cha?! ♪ yeah, yeah ♪

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>> good morning, mika, joe, willie, jonathan. it's a different kind of border battle playing out here. many of the refugees we are talking about came when they were babies here to the united states from war-torn countries, their families fleeing trauma, and now some of them are facing deportation after spending decades -- really, their entire lives in the u.s. back to countries they have never even visited. a rally in oakland, california to, pardon a former refugee that fled the genocide in cambodia when he was just a year old. >> we need him here to help us. >> he's facing imminent deportation to cambodia, a country he doesn't remember. >> i am feeling overwhelming. >> when he was 21, he killed a

man in a drive-by shooting and he was sentenced to prison for 30 years. >> i got news from home that my sister was murdered. i thought, this is the kind of pain that i caused the victim's family. just thinking about that pain really was the first time i think a seed of empathy was planted within me. >> he mentored many others. >> what are you doing man? value yourself. >> last year a parole board deemed him no longer a threat to society and he was released after serving 26 years in prison, a joyous moment that proved fleeting. >> i went from high to really low thinking freedom is right there, i could taste it and smell it. >> because he committed a serious crime and not an

american citizen, he was marked for deportation immediately upon release. an estimated 15,000 refugees face deportation, despite 15% of them completing their prison sentences. >> you took somebody's life and went to prison, and you are facing deportation. >> one thing i know that i can do is change other lives as well for that person to be given a chance to heal other lives, to make up for the life that was lost, and i'm asking for that chance. >> a congresswoman, judy chu, is working to make that happen and it -- >> i think it's a cruel form of double punishment for these men

and women who have deep roots in these communities and have done their time, the more we can get the american public to know what is going on, the better. >> even if the law passes it will be too late for you. days after the oakland rally, he was deported. >> what was it like when you touched down in cambodia? >> i felt scared. i didn't get a chance to say good-bye to my parents or my friends, and that haunts me a little bit. >> it will take a pardon from california governor, newsom, to bring him home. meanwhile, the congresswoman is

introducing her bill. so far it has been really, really tough for him, and you think you did the crime you do the time, and there's a debate, 26 years in prison, at what point do you allow people to continue to live their lives and contribute back to society? >> thank you for bringing that story. we appreciate it. still ahead, the latest from warsaw as president biden caps his historic trip in a meeting of leaders and nato's eastern plank. "morning joe" will be right back. we believe our military heroes deserve a company who will fight for them

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's the top of the third hour of "morning joe" on this thursday.

jonathan lemire is still with us. >> sounded like a complaint. >> no, it's good. we need you. it's almost redundant at this point. you never leave. it's good. you are always on the show. >> sounds like -- >> it's not a complaint. president biden wraps up his overseas trip today as vladimir putin vows to continue fighting in ukraine. kristen welker has the latest from warsaw. >> one day after high stakes split-screen speeches, tensions between the u.s. and russia escalating. moscow notified the united states it was going to launch a missile test before president biden's trip to ukraine. one of the officials said the test which is thought to have failed was routine and not a threat to the u.s., but this morning stark rhetoric from russia, top putin ally and

security official says if the u.s. wants to defeat russia we have the right to defend ourselves with any weapon, including of the nuclear time. it came as a major surprise in putin's speech yesterday the russia will suspend its arms agreement with the u.s. we pressed the white house, what does the move mean for america's safety and security? >> we see no indication mr. putin plans to use mass destrucktions of any kind. on tuesday the president delivering a searing indictment of putin. >> kyiv stands strong, and most important, it stands free.

>> russian president vladimir putin addressed the people in moscow, falsely accusing the west of starting the war. >> every day the war continues, it's his choice. >> with russia's latest defensive in eastern ukraine picking up speed the president warned the war could be far from over, vowing the u.s. and its nato allies will have ukraine's back for as long as it takes. >> kristen welker reporting, and now she reported president biden will hold talks today in warsaw with leaders of the so-called bukarest nine, and they came together in response to russia's annexation of crimea in 2018. >> and now a member of the

bukarest nine. thank you for being with us. we appreciate it. >> good morning. >> president biden makes a speech in warsaw, and now meeting with the bukarest nine. >> the visit to ukraine will go to the history books in that context, and it's an immense psychological support for ukraine, and it's the word the world got. what is important on the bukarest nine meeting is it gives a clear signal that the u.s. will be a paramount defender also of our region, security, that nato is steadfast and therefore the country's neighboring russia, we are

strongly participating in all the defense postures against possible russian attacks. >> can you give the american audience watching this morning a view of the war from estonia, from as close as you are from russia from the threat you fe everyday, i assume, or a potential threat, so what does it looks like from estonia? >> as we are a neighboring country to russia, and the outcome of the war could be interpreted of putin's victory, and it would be a threat to europe. therefore ukraine needs to win this war. estonia has now delivered 1% of our gdp of weapons support to ukraine, and we are making this plea to all our allies. ukraine needs more weapons, more ammunition immediately.

what about our region security? we are proud we have received u.s. troops. way have uk troops and others. i think the kremlin has got the signal launch for any attempt to attack us would mean a comprehensive response from nato. >> so other countries in the bukarest nine are aware of the threat russia poses, and what is -- nothing classified, but what is the assessment from your country as to what russia can still do? what is the threat they still pose? >> well, the war is not ending and could continue for years. actually western countries will decide what will be the end of the war, particularly, how

detriment we will be in our support to ukraine, and the rising altitude of sanctions, and therefore russia is now preparing to a ground count offensive, and there's a lack of particular weapon systems, where fighter jets and long-range missiles, and i pledge to the u.s. and other allies not to be resistant to give these weapons to ukraine, because it will be escalating. russia already uses all these types of weapons against ukraine. >> what do you make of vladimir putin's speech, his response to all of this in the past 24 hours? >> russia has not given up any

centimeter of anything, and they have an intent to destruction of ukraine, and they are including the hidden threats on the nukes, and they are continuing their operations, their war. we have to understand that the greater impact of this war is that russia wants to get superiority over the west, and there's in a way particularly it's an issue, whose willpower and determination is stronger, either the kremlin's or ours. >> president putin's speech accused the west of starting the war, and so you understand putin better than somebody in the

united states right now, and how does it end? is there anything that would compel putin to step away? how does this end in your view? >> there's no alternative in the sake of our view and our values that russia has to be defeated by ukraine, and it's actually in our hands to make it happen. the one thing is that we particularly need to understand that if in the 21st century we create a president where the borders of the countries could be changed with the tanks and the people of genocide will somehow survive, so it will be a different world our children and grandchildren are going to live,

and therefore estonia's pledge is that we should have a tribunal of aggression, and under that should belong putin and his accomplices. >> one of the legacies of this war is the expansion of nato, and turkey has put up some objections and tried to slow down the process, and as a member of the b-9 members, what is your message to turkey? >> pleads ratify this treaty, and there has been a devastating earthquake in turkey, and in the context of security for our region, it's a vital issue

because it will change the balance also around the border if finland, sweden will become -- i am sure it takes time, but -- surely i hope it's sooner, but these countries will become members of nato, and the future will also be that after this war ukraine should become also a member of nato. >> i was going to ask you, what is your message to president biden and to other nato members and the rest of the world about estonia's support in the long haul for ukraine? >> we need to act immediately. the last year, what we learned from last year is that western support to ukraine has been too slow, it has been like a gradual approach. to invest to ukraine and support as much as it needed that ukraine would not lose the war,

but we have to change, we have to invest in the ukrainian victory as much as needed, and ukraine could have a superiority military on the ground and free its territory. the last year has shown us it's possible. >> estonia's minister of foreign affairs, thank you very much for joining us with your insight. >> thank you. we are going to turn now to a move from the biden administration that could have an impact on the housing market here in the united states. the administration just announced a program offering relief to eligible home buyers and homeowners from rising mortgage insurance costs. the program is expected to benefit 850,000 families this year alone with average savings of $800 per year, and in just hours vice president kamala harris and department of housing and urban development secretary,

marcia fudge, with travel to maryland to share more about this new program. before that, secretary fudge joins us now with the exclusive details. great to have you on the show this morning. this program sounds really promising. if you could explain more, madam secretary, on how this will help future homeowners and current homeowners? >> i am happy to. thank you so much for having me. what we know is that as prices have continued to rise over the last few years, fewer and fewer people are buying homes, so what we thought the president and vice president said, look, find a way to get relief to those facing financial issues every day, and so if you cannot put down 20% of your mortgage, the insurance premium could go from

$100 a month to $1,500, and it depends based on the cost of the home. it could be just enough to keep them from purchasing a home. why are we doing this? because we already have in reserves for losses five times what congress has asked us to hold. we said, let's give it back to the people and find a way to help new homeowners, people of color and first generation homeowners, get a chance of the american dream. we are going to reduce that amount. go ahead. >> i am curious, you will reduce the amount by -- some of the numbers i am looking at, it will still lock people out of the process. will it be enough to get people into homes? >> absolutely. when you consider the fact that in times of difficulty, most people turn to the federal

government. fha underwrites the mortgages, and 80% of the new mortgages are first-time home buyers. this is in addition to what we are already doing. we believe it will encourage people to purchase new homes. >> how will it do that, especially given the interest rates people are facing right now and the prices of a home or even getting an apartment, buying a small home? what exactly will they see with this new program that will help them be able to make that move? >> i would suggest to you two things. one is that rent today is so high that it is probably less expensive to purchase than it is to rent. most people that rent clearly could pay a mortgage. what we want to do is assist

them get into a mortgage. first-time home buyers especially need help. if we can help them from $800 a year up to $1500 a year, and that's significant. if we reduce this by 30 percentage points and reduce it to a place where people can afford it, it makes a world of difference for those who are just barely getting by. >> secretary, good morning. it's great to have you back with us. looking at the home ownership rates across the years, looks like it has gone up more among hispanic and black homeowners. what do you attribute that to where people in the last few years are able to buy homes? interest rates were low and have gone up since, but what else has gone on there? >> we are making sure that

people who have student debt no longer are treated unfairly. it was our practice at fha in under writing, if you had student loan debt, it was weighted higher, and who has student loans? black and brown people. many are first-time buyers, and they are people of color or poor, and they will say you don't have credit history, you have no credit. so we are saying now if you have a positive rental history, that for us is good credit. we make them credit worthy. we as well are assisting with a number of other things, but those are the two big ones. the president also requested some $100 million in down payment assistance. most people can afford to pay

their monthly mortgage, and they don't have the up front resources and they are working with buyers on that, and a number of things are happening that are encouraging people of color and new home buyers to get into the market. lastly and more importantly, we have doubled our housing counseling, so people can sit down and talk to people and say, yes, you can buy a home and yes we can help people do that. just the knowledge of the things available to them have made it so they are interested and seeking advice, and most of them, do, in fact, qualify. >> hud secretary fudge, thank you for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you. and barbara lee announced she's running for senate in california, and she joins fellow democratic members of congress in the race. if she wins she will be the only

black woman serving in the u.s. senate. the last black woman serving in the senate was also from california, kamala harris. >> when you stand on the side of justice, you don't quit if they don't give you a seat at the table, you bring a folding chair for everyone and they are here to stay. >> congresswoman lee also wrote on twitter, i never backed down from doing what is right and i never will. californians deserve a strong progressive leader who has delivered real change. >> on the subject of senate democrats, john tester, the democrat in montana announced he will run for re-election in 2024. that will be a hotly contested race and a lot of republicans think they can take that back, and if he got out of the race it would have been almost a certain pickup for the republicans.

>> that will give the democrats a chance to keep it. but we know this senate map in 2024 is challenging for democrats, and they have to play a lot of defense in states like this one. they have a shot there, but it will be closely linked to the presidential race and we don't know what that will look like. >> a lot of politics to get to. ahead on "morning joe," we will look at how russia's ongoing invasion affected the children of ukraine. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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we're seeing again today what the people of poland and the people across europe saw for decades, appetites of the

autocrat cannot be appeased, they must be opposed. autocrats only understand one word. no. no. no. no, you will not take my country. no, you will not take my freedom. no, you will not take my future. >> here's more of the president on the world stage speaking to everybody involved in the fight against tyranny and especially to vladimir putin about what will and will not fly. >> one year ago the world was bracing for the fall of kyiv. well i just came from a visit to kyiv, and i can report, kyiv stands strong. kyiv stands proud, it stands tall and most important, it stands free. one year into this war putin no longer doubts the strength of our coalition, but he still

doubts our conviction, he doubts our staying power, and he doubts our continued support for ukraine, and he doubts whether nato can remain unified. nato will not be divided and we will not tire. the united states and the nations of europe do not seek to control or destroy russia. the west was not plotting to attack russia as putin said today. millions of russian citizens only want to live in peace with their neighbors are not the enemy. this war was never a necessity. it's a tragedy. president putin chose this war. every day the war continues, it's his choice. he could end the war with a word. it's simple. if russia stopped invading

ukraine, it would end the war. if ukraine stopped defending itself against russia, it would be the end of ukraine. >> richard, you wrote a book about wars of choice. i thought it was a brilliant line from the president saying this is a war of choice, it's putin's choice and he could end this war with one word. then this line. we will not tire. it's a message repeated from what he said in kyiv, we will stay here until the job gets done. what was your takeaway from the warsaw speech and the visit to kyiv? >> i thought the president framed it exactly right there, joe. it's a war of choice for putin and a war of necessity for the west, and that's the distinction. and he eluded to it several

times, persuade putin time is not his side. clearly the last year is not the year putin bargained for. the question is can he regroup? can over the next few years, can splits emerge within ukraine? obviously in the west, in the united states, and putin is banking on that. perhaps he's also hoping to get help from china, and the chinese doesn't want to see him lose and have made an enormous investments with them. i thought it was one of the best speeches of president biden's presidency. the only thing i would say, you can't accomplish it in a speech, joe, is the proof will be in the pudding. do we demonstrate to the russians we have the staying power to provide the arms and economic support for ukraine?

the only other sad thing is we are talking about years. i don't see anything in the last couple of days to suggest that this war is poised to end. we have to essentially prepare ourselves for a long war and hopefully at a lower level of intensity, and maybe not, but the pieces are not aligned for diplomacy here. >> nothing in putin's speech indicated any step backward. the president is still in poland today and is coming back later this afternoon, but the secret visit to kyiv, which they pulled off, and the speech being well received around the world especially in europe and then back home. >> yeah, and there was the secret trip to kyiv, and providing powerful images, and then the speech yesterday which i feel like to the admiral's point was delivered to different audiences. this is reflecting how far the war has come in a year.

for that speech, the first one, he just met with a group of ukrainian refugees and it was a somber feeling. kyiv still stood, but there was concerns if ukraine would be able to fight back against russia. he was imploring the allies to say this is worth it and we need to be able to do this. it was a somber feel a year ago. yesterday, it felt like a nato pep rally. there were flags everywhere and blue lights, and a soundtrack of beyonce and springsteen before the president took the stage. there was a sense of accomplishment that this had been a successful year, but in the president's own words, joe, hard days are ahead. and ukraine has exceeded all expectations a year into the conflict, and there are no signs it will end anytime soon, and that's why there was a push to all of the audiences to keep the support and arms going because russia shows no signs of stopping.

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while decisions are ours to make now, the principles and the stakes are eternal. the choice between chaos and stability, between hope and fear, between building and destroying, and between nothing less than limitation and possibilities, the kind of possibilities that come when

people who live not in captivity but in freedom, freedom, freedom -- there's no sweeter word than freedom. there's no nobler goal than freedom or higher aspiration than freedom. >> i think if we can't take a step back one year in, i don't know when we can. that's my way of saying we are going to take a step back for a second. i remember a year ago when we were talking about -- you and i were talking about, and other right-thinking people talk about the importance of not letting putin's aggression stand because of the message it will send to china, and i was called all kinds of things and it broke my heart and i almost considered quitting -- i'm joking. so we look a year later, you can't talk to anybody in foreign

policy, you can't talk to anybody in the intel community or talk to anybody that knows anything about global politics that doesn't say china has been frozen by america's response. they understand that suddenly the idea of walking into taiwan is going to be a bloody messy and ugly deal, and they don't have a single chinese general that has ever gone into battle with one bullet shot their direction. >> let's put yourself in president xi's shoes right now, and you are looking at a debacle where your best friend signed you up for the olympics, and you are asking yourself three questions. number one, are my generals as bad as the russian generals appear to be?

the answer is you don't know. china has not been in a major war in 70 or 80 years, and so the generals have been trained in that broken soviet-style of war. >> before you get to two, let's talk about the united states' experience over the past 20 years. things have been ugly. we have tragically lost over 4,000 people in iraq and afghanistan, and at the same time we have been fighting for 20 years. we have -- we have learned things about warfare and urban conflict that no other military on the planet knows. that is that, again, in marked contrast to china. >> it is. in particular recall, it's 20 years of war. we are a highly bloodied army, as we say, and so are our

european colleagues and they came to afghanistan and fought along us. when you look at the capabilities of the entire coalition, they are profound. when you add the intelligence alongside it and put it altogether, yes, we have a great deal of capability. no, russia doesn't. china, it's a big question mark for xi. the other two questions are, question two is hey, i wonder if those taiwanese will fight like hell the way the ukrainians have? again, the answer is, i don't know. i have met with the national security team and i think they will fight and fight effectively. third, if you are china, you are looking at the economy, and could we do precision-guided sanctions and increase what we

have? perhaps. and i will close with this. president xi is a patient person, he spent seven years to a farm shoveling manure. >> china is struggling a little bit as it tries to walk this line. his top diplomat was in moscow. china called beijing's relationship with moscow rock solid, and he was on a tour of europe trying to strengthen ties there. they need europe, obviously, for their economy. on the other hand they are trying to keep russia in its pocket as well. how does it walk that line? >> it's walking it.

europe continues to buy energy from russia, and my guess they are -- the question is are they prepared to give lethal military port. xi jinping cast his lot with vladimir putin and he cannot afford for putin to lose. i think the chinese look at us and go, there's a competition going on between republicans and democrats. they think there's zero reward. what are we going to penalize them on? they are quite arrogant on this. they think we need them, and they believe if they can separate themselves a little so

they are more self reliant and make us more dependent on their markets, and so china is not going to help us here. the idea that they are going to be a significant help, we have to be careful of this. coming up, what it looks like when the far right takes control of local government. there's new reporting on what he calls the battle to redefine american politics. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe."

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the supreme court heard roughly three hours of oral arguments yesterday on whether youtube should be held responsible for the videos it suggests and promotes through it's algorithm. the case concerns the killing of an american college student who was studying abroad in paris in 2015 when she was killed in an attack carried out by isis. plaintiffs in the case argue that youtube is partially responsible for enabling the attack that killed gonzalez by recommending isis videos and others promoting violent ideology. the question at hand surrounds the legal shield known as

section 230 that protects companies. yesterday they called into section whether 230 shields companies when they recommend content suggesting social media companies may be interpreting the rule too broadly, however a majority of the justices seemed inclined to side with youtube in the case, arguing if the court sides with the plaintiffs it would open a floodgate of lawsuits. i am curious saying that a floodgate of lawsuits would open up. why does that matter? if something is right or wrong, are you making a decision on, oh, boy, this would be messy?

oh, boy, this would prompt lawsuits? of course it would. >> i think when judges going about deciding things they do look at the consequences, and the justices were looking first and foremost of the language in the statute. the one sentence that matters is pretty broad. if you get content from somewhere else, it's not yours, it's somebody else's. they may recommend some things or put some things higher than others, that's the only way you can function. all websites have to do that or you would never be able to find anything, and it would not be useable. i think the justices, you know, for all for all the disclaimers they made about not understanding the internet because they're old people, they got that point. and i think that's a point that was made in google's briefs quite well. >> this might be a job for congress, but is there an

appetite to deal with it? >> no. this is john roberts' court. this is the same john roberts that said, don't ask me to change obamacare and get rid of obamacare from the court this year when you can do the same thing in the voting booth next year. i think that's what they're going to do with section 230 as well. the roberts court will say, don't ask us to step in and do congress' job for them. if you want to amend it, if you want to change it, that's fine. i will say the one part that is fascinating is, is this algorithm question. if social media companies are pushing people the violent content, that's -- that does seem to go beyond the scope of what 230 intended. and we've seen it time and again. we saw it during the black lives matter protests. i believe the guy in oakland that saw something online, if i'm not mistaken, he went to a hate group and then went to an oakland courthouse and shot a

guard. we saw it happening there. we saw it on january 6th. where people that were going onto certain areas, certain chat rooms, and then they were pushed to whether it was white supremacy sites or whether it was neo-nazi sites. that seems to be, again, going well beyond the scope of 230. so, it will be fascinating to see how the court addresses that. i do want to ask you, though, mara, about something that's always bothered me about section 230. and i guess i have to admit here that i voted for it, like, back -- like in the ice age. i think it was 1996. because you didn't want little internet companies that had comments down at the bottom getting in trouble if somebody put a comment at the end of a blog post and wipe that. so, obviously things have exploded, though. you have these multi-billion

dollar corporations that make money off hate speak. that make money off of allowing people to spread lies to millions and millions of people. and do the sort of things that if "the new york times" did it, "the times" would be put out of business. the idea that this is 1996 and we're talking about you've got mail or compuserv is completely asanine. isn't it fim for congress to hold elon musk and mark zuckerberg and others of these corporations to the same standard that everybody else is held to? why do we carve things out for -- i would have said jack dorsey. i did say that a couple of years ago. this is -- it's just insanity that we're allowing these billion dollar corporations to have an exemption that nobody else has. >> joe, you're making a powerful case here that the law -- maybe

it is just out of date. listening to you talk about the way you were thinking about it when it was enacted is reason enough. you're right. president internet has changed, the world has changed. but this is one of those areas of american exceptionalism, too, where other democracies look at us and say, why can't you figure this out? one of the reasons is we have a very broad first amendment statute. as a journalist, that's a wonderful thing. the problem here is the world has changed. to your point, joe, you now have companies that are not journalistic organizations that are disseminating information, some of it factual, some of it dangerous, some of it hate speech. and they are -- they essentially have no responsibility. for the consequences of that. so, we have this central tension. you know, it's easy to get wonky. we all know what section 230 is here at the table. for the americans sitting at home, the question is, well, what responsibility should youtube or google or facebook

have if they're promoting hate speech on their platforms. i think the average american would say, they should have some. but legally that's a harder case to make. coming up, we'll go live to poland as president biden wraps up his high-stakes trip to europe. a full recap just ahead on "morning joe." trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪ it's time to make a stand. ♪and i'm feelin' good.♪

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supporting ukraine against russia. we're going to dip into this. right now just to hear a few words. let's take a listen to the president. >> nothing like that has happened. things have changed radically. we have to make sure we change them back. so, thank you all very much for allowing me to be with you. and i look forward to our private discussions. >> we'll be monitoring this. of course, this is members of nato that clearly are collectively interested in exactly what's going to happen to ukraine. we just heard from the foreign minister of estonia earlier on "morning joe" about how staunchly they support the aggression against ukraine to be ended as soon as possible against vladimir putin. >> and that foreign minister called president biden's trip over the last three days nothing short of historic. let's go to warsaw where we find

nbc news chief white house correspondent, kristen welker. kristen e the president making remarks there with the b9. what all did he say and did he address vladimir putin's speech yesterday? >> reporter: good morning. the president making news, responding for the very first time to president putin's announcement that russia will suspend its participation in the new s.t.a.r.t. treaty. that's the last remaining nuclear arms treaty between the u.s. and russia. the president saying that that move is a, quote, big mistake. so, that is the first time we are hearing from president biden about this. it does come as he is meeting with the bucharest nine, the key allies in the region. i'm told the focus today is going to be on staying unified against russian aggression. of course, it comes on the heals of that split screen we witnessed yesterday, president biden giving remarks in warsaw just as president putin give remarks in moscow hours before

the president spoke. the president's message yesterday to the world was very clear. he sees this moment as an inflection point. he made the case that vladimir putin has failed to achieve his own objective, saying that kyiv stands strong, it stands proud, and it stands free. he also accused putin of committing crimes against humanity. overnight a new threat from russia to potentially use nuclear weapons. one white house official responding to that saying, quote, russian rhetoric around the potential use of nuclear weapons remains as unwarranted as it is irresponsible. this official adding that the president's focus remains on supporting ukraine. now, all of this, all of this coming as we've gotten some new reporting from a u.s. official who says that russia alerted the u.s. that it was going to test an intercontinental ballistic missile before president biden's surprise trip to ukraine. now, that test, we are told, the u.s. believes has failed. it just all adds to the urgency in the region and to the

critical and high-stakes talks that president biden is holding today. >> we can remind our viewers that the bucharest nine seated with the president, those are nations on the front line. eastern european countries who live under the russian threat every day, sharing borders with russia as well. so, as you look at these last couple of days, particularly the speech last night in warsaw, kristen, describe a little bit for our viewers of what it was like there. i mean, it had the feel, we've been saying this morning, of almost a pep rally for nato, flag flying, music playing ahead of time, a contrast to the president's speech nine months ago in that same spot. >> reporter: i think that's a really good way to describe it, willie. you had tens of thousands of people there. ukrainian refugees, officials here in poland, waving flags. it did feel like a moment to energize people around this effort to stay unified in an

attempt to further isolate russia and to support ukraine as this war now inches closer to entering a second year. the president essentially rallying people, but also preparing them for the fact that there will be difficult months ahead. this was a notable moment for this president. as he said, this is a broader fight. this is bigger than ukraine. this is about defending democracy worldwide, willie and mika. >> nbc's kristen welker in warsaw, poland. thank you so much. jonathan, the president wrapping up his trip. this is the last stop, the meeting with the b9 members before he's wheels up, back to washington. taken in total, we just heard from estonia's foreign minister, sitting where you're sitting now, saying this is an historic moment, the president's visit. first the visit to kyiv, the speech yesterday, a show of strength and solidarity, that those nations will not forget. in the short term will be important as this war continues. >> we hear from president biden

a lot, including yesterday in this speech, that president putin had bet the west would splinter, the alliance would fall apart in his aggression in ukraine, they wouldn't be there to support kyiv, and the exact opposite has occurred. nato on the verge of expansion. the b9 countries in their rally together than ever before. the u.s. has stepped to the forefront after four years, mika, of president donald trump ignoring these alliances. president biden has put them at the very center of his foreign policy here. he has stressed the need for these countries to be together, even before the invasion. and now after moscow went into ukraine, that much more so. there are certainly going to be challenging months ahead. we should note the president, ash on his forehead, ash wednesday, observant catholic, already received that sack ament this morning, how it was a mistake for president putin to pull out of that s.t.a.r.t. treaty, even though there were concerns russia wasn't adhering

to it, but another mark of brinksmanship by russia. >> and president putin was negative to nato. >> trying to pull it apart. >> let's go to msnbc's clint watts at the big board this morning. clint is taking a look at russia's year-long attack on ukraine's infrastructure. my gosh, as badly as they are doing on the world battlefield, clint, they have caused a terrible amount of damage for ukrainians. >> that's right, mika. when we look at what's happening right now inside ukraine, i think what's important to note for the ukrainians, it's their ability to stay resilient. through the winter, they need what? they need electricity, they need water, they need heat. to do that they have to sustain the fight. back on monday we talked about three phases of the war -- the initial invasion of russia,

their push back out of kyiv and focus on the east, and then as the counteroffensive started right over in here, in the east and into the south, we saw a shift in the russian strategy. what did they try to do? they tried to really go after ukraine's resilience to stay. why? the russians initially thought they were going to take most of eastern ukraine. they wanted to actually hold onto all of this infrastructure. instead, about october, november we saw several different things happen. in the east you've got everything from artillery, sabotage and missile strikes hitting critical infrastructure. trying to knock that out. today in this eastern part of ukraine, you see where a lot of the electricity, the clean water manufacturing, the power, that's just not there anymore. even more importantly is the capital kyiv. to keep ukraine going, ukraine has to be able to power itself, it needs water and also needs to regenerate its businesses. what has vladimir putin done? he's tried to focus on kyiv, knock out its electricity. many missile strikes targeting this infrastructure.

what is the good news of this is the ukrainians have been able to fend off a lot of these with anti-missile strikes. the longer situation is how do we keep anti-aircraft missiles coming in around kyiv and eastern europe so they can defend themselves? big picture. there's still some critical risks we're looking at. remember, we were talking about nuclear at the start of the war. the russians came in, took over chernobyl, we were worried about missile strike, detonation, it's led to zaporizhzhia. russians have taken it, it's gone on and off line. will russia try to keep that power plant, use the electricity, steal it from the ukrainians. the last note has been critical is there's a lot of fears late in the year last year, at the end of 2022 as this dam right here, this hydroelectric dam might fall to the russians in terms of sabotage. knocking it offline. that's critical damage both in terms of physical infrastructure

but also to the electric power. how would ukraine be able to survive? will they be able to regenerate down here in the south? for the ukrainians, keeping all this infrastructure going, being able to bring it back online quickly, which they've been able to do, that requires parts and resupply and that's a total humanitarian supply chain we have to support them throughout the rest of the year. >> clint watts, thank you very much for that perspective. we appreciate it. one year into the war, a new study is showing the devastating effect the violence has had on the children of ukraine. it was conducted by the ukraine children's action project, a nonprofit focused on providing mental health and educational assistance to the traumatized children in the country. joining us now with those numbers is the founder of the ukraine children actions project, dr. irwin redlener,

from columbia university. so good to see you, doctor. looking at the report and the study here, obviously, over 1,200 children have been killed during the war. there's an ongoing toll that you point to on their academic performance and mental health, that has been devastating. you make the point this will impact the eventual recovery of the country. can you give us more color and dimension to what was found about how the children of ukraine are doing. >> sure, mika, i'm glad to be with you. i was just listening to clint's report about the physical damage and destruction that's been basically a war now of terrorism being waged by russia. it is having an effect, a deep effect on the people, obviously, which is what the hope was, to demoralize. it's really having an effect

that's emphasized in children, how they're doing, how they're feeling. they're going into their shelters and schools, virtually daily now. electricity's being knocked out. all of that said, we just got back from our fifth visit to ukraine in the region. and i'm telling you, you know, i remember when president zelenskyy spoke at congress in december. we were so inspired by his resilience and strength. i just want to tell you that the same resilience and strength that's exhibited by the people of ukraine. they're putting up with a lot and they're going to get through it. however, we have children not going to school regularly, we have lots of children with serious psychological trauma, and we must deal with that now. even though we're in the middle of a war, we have to make sure that children are ready to succeed in school, are mentally healthy and are able to participate.

eventually in the recovery of their incredible country. we wanted to do the study basically to make sure that the world is aware of the fact of the human toll and the toll on children is really significant. >> doctor, for the ukraine children actions project, where do you begin? how do you start reaching these children? how do you start identifying the problems that seems to massive, almost impossible? >> well, you know, with every big problem, big challenge like this, you have to start somewhere. and one of the things we're doing is we're helping -- we're creating, for example, programs that will be available online to help teachers all over ukraine learn how to recognize and deal with trauma in the classroom. that is a very, very important step. and the second thing is that we're supporting all kinds of programs, things like what's

called recovery camps in western ukraine where moms go and they spend days and work with therapists. we just basically have to keep supporting them. you know, we're not a gigantic organization, but we're trying to create these model programs that can be replicated throughout the country. and i think this is one of the things we have to keep supporting. we also have resources of the u.s. government through usaid that can build programs to support children, support their education and so on. we talk about kids not going to school and they're going to be trying to learn remotely. but they need hardware. they need technology. so, we've been donating hundreds and hundreds of computer tablets to help make sure that children have the ability to learn, that parents are supported and so on. it's a tough job, but i really think ukraine and the rest of

the world has to help make sure that children are safeguarding through this horrendous process. i was listening to your reports earlier, mika, i don't know when this is going to end or how this is going to end. that's not my expertise. what is how are we going to make sure we're protecting the children of ukraine through whatever happens. >> you're doing great work. it's ukraine children actions project. you can visit ukrainecap.org. ukrainecap.org. doctor, thank you for the work you're doing and the example you're setting. we appreciate it. >> thanks, guys. the environmental protection agency has ordered norfolk southern to clean up the toxic chemicals spilled when one of the trains derailed tree weeks ago along the ohio/pennsylvania border. they want the railroad operator to clean soil and water, pay all epa costs and participate in

meetings. if the company fails to do any of these, the epa says it will take over and charge norfolk southern triple the cost. >> in no way, shape or form will norfolk southern get off the hook for the mess that they created. folks, i know this order cannot undo the nightmare families in this town have been living with, but it will begin to deliver much needed justice for the pain that norfolk southern has caused. >> action also being taken at the state level. pennsylvania governor josh shapiro says his office has made a criminal referral to the acting attorney general. mike dewine said his office is preparing to take legal action. the biden administration has been criticized for what some say has been a slow response to the derailment. transportation secretary pete buttigieg was asked yesterday if he should have spoken out sooner? >> i was focused on just making

sure our folks on the ground were all set, but could have spoken sooner about how strongly i felt about this incident. and that's a lesson learned be for me. >> president biden also posted a long twitter thread defending the actions of the white house and criticizing rail companies for, quote, resisting safety regulations. the president also blamed the previous administration for, quote, limiting our ability to implement and strengthen rail safety measures. speaking of the previous administration, former president donald trump says he'll be in east palestine, ohio, today. >> we don't know what his agenda will be or when he's supposed to arrive. his administration rolled back some safety regulations that may have played a role in this crash. there is a lot of scrutiny on the state and federal level. secretary buttigieg has come under criticism, so has the white house. i think we should anticipate in the coming days the vice president or president will probably make a trip to ohio as well to pledge federal support for as long as it takes. and now we have the two states,

and certainly governor dewine also taking heat for being slow to respond, suggesting there could be legal action. everyone here is, of course, blaming this rail company, mika, who has resisted stepping to the forefront. there's going to be a lot of pressure on them to pay for the clean-up, but also for these residents who in the short term need a place to live. there's also real questions about their long-term health, breathing in fumes like this for weeks. >> and the ability of this town to function. still ahead, a look at different strategy for republican white house hopefuls are using when it comes to dealing with donald trump. plus, a key juror in the special grand jury investigating interference at election in georgia, hints to federal indictments. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right back

republicans with an eye on 2024 are using different strategies when it comes to dealing with donald trump. here's what nikki haley said about the former president said yesterday, compared to new hampshire governor chris sununu said. >> how do you beat trump? i kick forward. i talk about joe biden. i'm not worried about trump. this is make sure we do something different and leave the status quo behind. we can't keep losing. it's time americans know what it's like to win again. we've lost enough. we've talked about past history issue enough. let's get rid of socialism, this defeatism and show our kids what it means to love our country. a strong america, a proud america. that's what we're going to do. >> look, my message to -- about president trump is we thank you for your service, great, but we're moving on. americans are not in the mode of

just settling. we're never going to say the next -- the best opportunity for tomorrow's leadership is yesterday's leadership. we want the next generation. we want the next big idea. we want the next piece of technology. it is in the american spirit to say, we're going after the next thing and the next individual to lead our party and to lead this country. it could be a variety of individuals. the former president is kind of baked in. either you're with him or you're not. i don't think anything will get his poll numbers up. as this race heats up and people start paying attention, there's going to be a lot of other options on the table. >> okay. so, i guess we should point out that nikki haley was saying, we can't keep losing. she was talking about? who was she talking about? >> president trump. but implicitly. >> okay. >> it was mostly about -- which direction do you kick, mika? side ways? forward? in all depends. >> it depends. it's soccer. i think she has to address trump a little more. she's sort of been caught speaking out of both sides of her mouth, you know, saying two

different things. being hypocritical, whatever the word is, about trump. >> she's beyond trump and going after biden. that's not going to work. you have to get through trump, who's still the favorite in the republican primary race, at least at this moment she is. she has to come up with a better answer than that. at this point she's decided not to engage. maybe if you're ron desantis, who is clearly the alternative right now, that's the smart thing to do. nikki haley is a declared candidate and worked for donald trump so it's important for her to come up with a better answer. >> appeasing donald trump never works, never has. not criticizing is not going to prevent him from vaporizing you so you have to come up with a different strategy. she worked under him, was a u.n. ambassador, she was critical on january 6th. >> is it, though? is it hard? >> she has to have a better answer than the kicking answer? >> after january 6th, is it really that hard? >> she criticized him after that

and then -- >> why is it so hard? it's just not that hard. and guess what, he's got, as chris sununu said, there's a certain set of voters that are baked in for trump. and i don't think you're going to get them. because they're for trump. so, you got to -- you've got to show some conviction, i think. i mean, i would love to see that -- i would love to see a strong republican party back in the game, but it's not happening with cowtowing to trump. >> everybody is trying to have this middle ground, i disagree with him on x, but they don't want to alienate -- >> george santos exists because of trump. he has a legacy now. i mean, what -- what is the problem? >> i think the example is people look to the fate of the republican who was 100% opposed to trump, which is liz cheney

and she got wiped out of her party. maybe she can't steal trump voters but not anger the rest of the party either. no one has found the winning formula. former president donald trump's save america political action committee spent about $10 million on law firms representing him in private legal disputes last year. think about that. some of them might be like getting themselves in legal trouble, you know, because of this. this is according to -- this number to the federal election commission filings obtained by "the new york times." a total of $16 million from trump's pac went towards his legal expenses in 2021 and 2022. "the times" reports some of that $16 million appears to have been for lawyers representing witnesses in investigations related to trump's efforts to cling to power after losing the 2020 election. the filings also show a majority of the money, about $10 million,

went to firms directly representing trump in a string of investigations and lawsuits, including some related to his company. "the times" reports, quote, the recent spending related to mr. trump is notable, not just for the sheer volume, it represented about 19% of the pac's total expenditures outside of transfers to one of his other political committees and those backing other candidates, but also because mr. trump is now a declared candidate for president again. a lot of money and a lot of conflict here, i sense, willie. >> it calls to mind, stop the steal, raise a whole bunch of money, help me defend myself around january 6th and the election, build the wall, steve ban on, we'll collect your money to build the wall, there was no building of the wall perform the grift continues. >> donald trump has not been shy about using his supporters' money for his own purposes. this is a prime example of that.

the stop the steal fund-raising, which was predicated on, perhaps, a known lie for trump, that could get him in legal issues. that's still something we know that jack smith special counsel, one of the many avenues he's exploring in terms of his ongoing probe. >> meanwhile, we're learning new details about the fulton county grand jury that investigated potential 2020 election interference by former president trump. the grand jury spokesperson is speaking out, giving her first television interview to our colleague, blayne alexander of nbc news. blayne joins us now live. we played a little bit of your conversation, extraordinary, earlier in the show. what more can you tell us? >> you know, willie, this really a fascinating conversation. extraordinary is a good word. she was the foreperson for this very closely watched but, yes, very secretive process. she volunteered for this role. she volunteered for the foreperson. she told me she didn't vote in the 2016 or 2020 elections. as i spoke with her, she's

someone clearly fascinated by the way this whole process played out. she was certainly fascinated to be part of it. we talked and she was clearly trying to walk a line. she was trying to share information but also trying to comply with the judge's ruling that deliberations have to remain under wraps. here's a little bit of our conversation. >> reporter: after eight months of secrecy, a rare look inside the georgia special grand jury charged with investigating whether former president trump broke the law in trying to overturn his 2020 election loss in the state. what do you want people to know about this process and about your work? >> that really, really when it came down to it, we were just people looking into something. and that's worth it. >> reporter: emily kohrs served as foreperson. she is limited in what she can share. a judge ordered deliberations must stay under wraps. kohrs confirms the jurors did recommend indictments against multiple people. >> it's not a short list.

>> reporter: so we're talking about more than a dozen people? >> i would say that, yes. >> reporter: are these recognizable names? names that people would know? >> there are certainly names that you would recognize, yes. >> reporter: she would not say whether that includes the former president, but did say this -- >> i don't think that there are any giant plot twists coming. i don't think there are any, like, giant, that's not the way i expected this to go at all. i -- i don't think that's in store for anyone. >> so, that was just a small fraction of our conversation. we talked for about 45 minutes or so yesterday. you know, i asked her, why is she speaking out? that was my first question. why speak out? why talk about this? she said, one, she believes this to be a very cool process. secondly, she wanted people to kind of know what this was like. she said she almost considered this a sense of duty, to be involved in this process. and she said she wanted to go

into it with an open mind. she gave interesting details, too, about the testimony that took place inside. not the testimony itself, but more of the demeanor of the people she spoke to. she praised senator lindsey graham, said he was very forthcoming, conversational. she talked about the fact she believed rudy giuliani's testimony to be truthful. certainly some different bits of color. she talked about different people who weren't as forthcoming. mark meadows being one of them, saying he repeatedly invoked his fifth amendment right there. interesting tidbits. the final thing i asked her, does she believe she got to the truth in this, she and her colleagues? she said they felt like they discovered a lot of interesting things and learned a lot in this process and did get the truth. >> so fascinating, blayne. did you get a sense of how restricted she felt or did not feel? she walked up to the line, if you watch your full conversation, a few times and stopped before disclosing too much.

is there any sense the judge might be watching your interview or other print interviews she's done and say, hold on, i told you not to be out there speaking? >> what's interesting is really the judge ruled is deliberations can't be divulged. that's something they can't talk about. she was very clear -- i asked her several questions and tried to ask them in different ways. she said, you know, that gets into deliberations. i'm not going to go into that. as you said, yes, she walked right up to the line. that's even something the judge brought up in previous hearings, essentially, what's to stop a grand juror from finding media person x and discussing this. but the thing he really clamped down on was deliberations, that needs to remain under wraps. >> so, i'm just curious, we talk about her walking up the line. blayne, did she cross the line? i mean, did she insinuate answers she shouldn't be insinuating? and what's the consequence of that? i mean, did she just go up to the line or did she cross it? >> i think that there are a lot of legal watchers, mika, who

have that very same question. folks i've talked to since this interview, since other print interviews, have raised that. i do think there are a couple of legal experts who say, yes, she stopped at that line. i do think that the questions of, what was being insinuated, it's kind of difficult to extrapolate what she was possibly insinuating. she did -- when i asked her about former president trump, of course, which many other folks did as well, she said there aren't going to be any surprises, there aren't going to be any bombshells. what would she necessarily consider to be a surprise or bombshell when it comes to talking about a possible indictment of a former president. >> i'm not sure the answer to this next question matters, but it might. i'm just curious. i've only seen snippets. you did a great job. but did she seem like she was taking this seriously? i'm trying to understand what we just saw. >> she did. i will say that. she certainly did. she seemed like somebody who

understood the gravity of this. at one point even kind of talked in the interview about the fact that she found it extraordinary that normal people, like her and others, were the ones who were involved in this. that these people would not come forward and answer questions unless people like her were involved in this process. that's the reason this whole panel was convened in the first place, to get subpoena power. is he certainly seemed to approach it with that sense of duty, but on the other hand, you know, she did mention that, for instance, her coolest moment in the process was shaking the hand of rudy giuliani. so, this is somebody i got the sense that was certainly understood the sense of duty but also, as she repeated, found it to be a very cool experience and a very cool process. >> nbc's blayne alexander, thank you for your reporting. great job. coming up, the president isn't the only biden on an overseas trip. the first lady is kicking off an

important visit to a different part of the world. we will preview her tour through africa straight ahead on "morning joe."

off a five-day tour in africa. she'll begin in namibia, where white house officials say she will focus, quote, on the role of young people in continuing to shape their democracy and advance health cooperation. she then will travel to kenya, where she will address food insecurity and drought. biden will also meet with first ladies of each country and speak to young people and women's empowerment organization. this trip marks her sixth time in africa, her first as first lady. president joe biden said last year he also plans to visit the subsaharan africa. two of his daughters made the announcement yesterday while marking the anniversary of his 1965 assassination. the lawsuit claims the agencies, quote, conspired with each other and failed to act in such a way as to bring about the wrongful

death of malcolm x. three men were convicted in his murder, but two were exonerated in 2021 after investigations showed the evidence used to convict them was insufficient. the s.e.c. has fined the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints $5 million for using shell companies to hide the size of its portfolio. the mormon church has $32 billion in investments in stocks, bonds, and agriculture. most of its portfolio is operated by a nonprofit. they say they violated s.e.c. rules by not filing paperwork to disclose the value of its assets. the firm must pay $4 million in penalties. a multimillionaire biotech company founder is now entering the race for president as a republican candidate. vivek ramaswamy posted a video

on line telling liberal americans that their race, gender, sexual orientation governs who you are, what you can achieve and what you are allowed to think. he's the co-founder of strive asset management. he's scheduled to make stops this week in iowa and new hampshire. finally to the college basketball court where virginia tech hokie fans were rooting for a lot more than just a victory over miami last night. >> in the ncaa tournament, for sure, they have some vulnerabilities. we've got to get this here. after jordan miller missed that free throw, the crowd's going nuts. here's why. if he misses a second one, everybody in this house gets free bacon. bacon for everybody! >> great call by reese davis, it sounded like. the promotion was also a consolation prize. the hokies fell to the hurricanes 76-70.

i think that arena full of fans will take the consolation prize. >> did they all get bacon? what do you mean? >> a pack of bacon? >> yeah. >> bacon you cook at home or eat in the moment? >> i would think not cooked -- >> i need to know. >> like a packet of bacon. >> like a frozen packet? >> anybody in the control room with detail? >> clearly, even despite the loss, they're going home happy. >> what does free bacon for everybody mean? >> what does that mean? >> we're working on it. >> our crack investigative unit, by that we mean google, is working on it. >> this makes no sense. you don't want to hand out raw meat in -- >> i would like to think it's sealed. >> maybe a concession stand -- the lines would be huge. >> i don't know if they prepared for the possibility they would -- >> that's my point. i don't think anybody got bacon. just saying. coming up --

>> we have an answer? no, no. >> we're still working on it. i give you the answer, nobody got bacon. >> wow. wow. >> next time, be ready to hand out bacon. coming up, what it looks like when the far right takes control of the local government. politico david sider joins us with new reporting on the republican hard-liners wreaking havoc in one michigan community. .

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free bacon, which you can -- >> not a bit. >> mika was skeptical about this promotion. >> you take it to the grocery store -- >> you can't get it because it's sold out. you're in that store and buying other things. it's a scam. >> while supplies last. the fine print. >> while supplies last. there was an emotional night last night in east lansing, michigan, speaking of college basketball, where the spartans beat indiana. it was michigan state's first home game since the mass shooting on campus eight days earlier. here's the public address announcer at the start of the game last night. >> it is the first home game here at michigan state in east lansing since a mass shooting on campus took the precious lives of three students and critically injured five others. spartan strong on the words that adorn the warm-up shirts of the michigan state and the indiana hoosier players as well as signs of strength and unity can be found all around the arena.

>> indiana has come here to east lansing, and it's been the story of recently, they're going to walk out with a loss. >> as you saw there, head coach tom izzo of michigan state was fighting back tears and did so at the final buzzer. he later reflected on his team's return to the court. >> i just think everybody did a hell of a job. most of all, the fans, students, and the community. i wish i could have ran up to that top row and thanked the people that were there. i just -- i did, i just looked around. that's all i did, was just look around. and all the bad times with this job, it was one of those moments where i just said, boy, i'm -- i'm a lucky guy. and i was saying to myself, i hope we can come through for you.

that's what i was thinking. >> tom izzo, of course, is an institution at michigan state. been there for more than a quarter of a century. won national championships. the most recognizable face on the campus of michigan state for sure. and i think expressing the feelings of anybody who goes to school there, who went there or anyone in the country who was thinking so much about those kids and that school for the last week or so. >> they're suffering so much. michigan's democrats flipped the state legislature and senate in the 2022 midterms, giving them complete control of the state government for the first time in 40 years. on the same election day, a group of far-right republicans in ottawa county, west of grand rapids, unseated seven republic county board. the seven republicans who are part of a group called ottawa impact prejudiced to, quote, recognize our nation's judeo-christian heritage and celebrate america as an

exceptional nation blessed by god. that pledge and other actions have led one fellow board member to say it's become more and more evident that these people are christian nationalists. joining us now national political correspondent for "politico" david ciders. you're the correspondent who reported on the group and how far right members are taking control of local governments. what does it look like? how prevalent is this, and what is the danger? >> well, i think it's not isolated. we saw this happen in shos ta county in california, a very red enclave where far right republicans took control of a local board and certainly you've seen school boards where conservatives are making runs in ways that they hadn't before, so i think it's not isolated. and also, the belief in the ten ets of christian nationalism isn't isolated either.

most republicans, a slight majority adhere to or are sympathetic to christian nationalist views. the danger that there's some small -- well, relatively small things. in this case the closure of a diversity, equity and inclusion office. the changing of a logo, the installation of a new county administrator. i think the broader concern about christian nationalism is the divisiveness of, you know, polarizing different religions and which ones should count or shouldn't count in america. >> and is there any sense that voters and people who are responsible for creating -- putting these people in office had a sense of who they were voting for? >> yeah, i think so. the ottawa impact candidates were not hiding. they had forums that they put videos online. they were, i think, very upfront about who they are and what they

represent, and this wasn't like a commission that snuck in, and i think that that's important because after the midterms there was this kind of sense, i think, in washington that the republican party would moderate because it saw some of its most far right trumpian candidates fail in november, and since then, i don't think that we've seen that be the case. i mean, you look at arizona what they've done recently and kari lake's continuing popularity. and an election denier as claire of the republican party in the state. certainly when you come down to these test case or petri dish kind of places that are very, very red, it's not like they're moderating as a result, if anything it's hardening on the right. >> in fact, donald trump congratulated the new chair of the republican party for her election denialism, said that was the credential that earned his support. a question for you, how big is

ottawa county? in other words, is this something isolated to a small group of people, to a small part of michigan, or is this something we're seeing more broadly across the state? >> well, as you pointed outs the election of an election denier in the state, it's isolated to the extent that democrats had a very good night in november. it doesn't necessarily travel. it doesn't work this competitive states or moderate districts. in a place like the republican party, in ottawa county that is about 300,000 people and is heavily conservative. it hasn't gone for a democrat for president in more than 100 years, it definitely works here. so yeah, it's not the majority of the county even. i think turnout in the primary there was something like 34%. so it's not a huge number of total votes, but as a reflection of what that community is, i think it's an honest representation.

>> so david, tell us a little bit about the agenda for this group of christian nationalists. what are some changes they've already instituted to the government there, and what do they hope to accomplish in the future? >> well, i think limited government and a sense of religiosity are the two things on their agenda. so clearly they're against mask mandated. they've asked to install as the county's new public health commissioner, public health officer pending state approval, someone who is an anti-masker, was anti-social distancing. he works at an hvac company and recommended netty pots as treatment for covid, which leads to these amazing headlines in the local paper, which has just been doing a bang up job covering this nonstop. a headline like the commission's proposed public health officer has no experience. here's why that could be a

problem. i mean, that's pretty stunning to me. and then john gibbs, they've put him in as the new county administrator. it's possible that he can administer a county. we just don't know. part of this is check back in a year and see what the budget negotiations look like and whether the roads are paved. so much of what is done at the county level, as you know, is not ideological, right? it's a pass-through. it's a huge pass-through of money, pave the roads, hire i.t. employees, do normal kinds of things. national political correspondent for "politico," david ciders. thank you so much for your reporting. what are you looking at today, the b 9? >> the b9 with the president being there, a triumphant trip to europe. willie, i know you've been keeping an eye on the free bacon. >> okay. >> always free bacon.

what impressed a lot of us is the foreign minister of estonia, president biden's visit to kyiv and his meeting with the bucharest nine was historic was that was the word he used. >> there's a lot of resolve in nato's strength and unity against russia's aggression. that does it for us this morning, lindsey reiser picks up the coverage after a quick final break. coverage after a quick fil break. a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. don't receive botox® if there's a skin infection.

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