you know, it would be difficult for the united states. it would be difficult, you know -- there have already been significant global economic repercussions from the war so far. we've seen that across the global south. you know, the food security situation, global inflation, all of that. you can imagine how much more significant that would be if you're talking about the chinese economy. so, clearly, the intent here on the part of the biden administration is to avert and head off any actual transfer of military technology or military hardware that would make them essentially force them to have to make those hard decisions. >> all right. national security reporter for "the washington post," live from kyiv, missy ryan, thank you very much. please stay safe. thank you for getting up with "way too early" with us this morning. friday morning. "morning joe" starts right now.

one year ago, president volodymyr zelenskyy stood defiantly with his cabinet in kyiv as russian forces attacked the ukrainian capital. ukraine has defied expectations and showed the world tremendous tenacity over the past year, fighting back russian forces time a time. today, there are no signs that europe's biggest land conflict since world war ii will end any time soon. we will be covering this come

somber anniversary throughout the morning. at home, we're following the federal response to the train derailment in east palestine, ohio. transportation secretary pete buttigieg toured the scene as investigators appear to pinpoint a possible cause for the crash. >> he certainly had challenges for donald trump, as well. >> yes, he did. >> well, i'm glad he came here. if he is now ready to join us in stopping the deregulation of dangerous trains like this one, then, yeah, we can work together. >> we'll have more of what he had to say and what is in store for east palestine today. meanwhile, former president trump continues to treat the disaster like a tv show, with more statements that are all about him. >> he actually talked about his -- willie, he talked about his ratings. >> yeah. >> he said the tv ratings for the coverage while i was here, this place where these people are suffering, were massive. well, of course, it wasn't

covered on tv. i don't know what imaginary world he is living in this week. just bizarre. more bizarre, bizarre statements from this guy. >> more bizarre and also at the scene, the site of a tragedy, to immediately go to the ratings and the trump water and handing out the hats at the mcdonald's and all of that. but you make an important point. he is losing his grip a little bit when he says that, just because it wasn't taken live. there were no ratings as if that mad mattered to this. since he brought it up, there were no ratings for his appearance in east palestine, ohio. >> again, so the guy goes there and is handing out bottles of water, talking about trump water, trump water, trump water. he is handing out campaign hats. again, for a community absolutely devastated, he is going around bitching and moaning about, oh, these people, they're suffering so much. what is the biden administration doing? he uses it as a branding exercise. again, that's the bizarreness of

donald trump. then he decides to lie about ratings. oh, i went there and my ratings were high. >> ratings for what? >> they were massive. there were no ratings. nobody covered it. >> well, we'll have more on that. also, we'll have the latest from a murder trial that is making international headlines. a man accused of killing his wife and son took the stand. we'll have the testimony for you. it was absolutely gripping. >> willie, this is one of these things, i was crashing on our ukraine special. i didn't see any of this yesterday. it's just one of those stories that you figure out very quickly, a lot of the country just stopped for. this seemed to be it. yeah, i heard a lot about it throughout the afternoon. >> absolutely. we haven't even covered it very much on this show. i was talking to alex, our ep. i think we've mentioned it a couple times. yesterday, because alex murdaugh

took the stand, in an unusual move, he is accused of murdering his wife and son, he was on the stand and this did -- you're right, it broke through completely. for people who may have heard of it or casually following it, occasionally, they were locked in driving around in their cars or watching msnbc, to see the coverage. we're going to do a deeper dive on this in a few minutes. he said, "i did not kill my wife and son. i did lie to police afterward. i did some bad things in my business life. i was addicted to opioids, which made me do some really dumb things around the murder in june of 2021." but he said, clearly, "i did not kill my wife and son." we'll see how he holds up under cross-examination. he's back on the stand today. >> we're going to talk to danny in a second. sam stein, were you watching this on the tv or were your family and friends calling you about it? >> i was glued, could not turn away. i didn't really watch it, to be

honest with you, but my friends did. they're interested in this trial. >> we're going to have much more coming -- >> by the way, aren't you glad we have sam? the way he contributed. >> exactly what i would have said. >> i could lie to you and say i've been watching this deliciously, but i'm not going to do that. >> expand upon it. >> i got pulled into it yesterday. >> you were watching it with the dogs. >> i was. it was gripping and sad and fascinating. we'll look into that and talk to legal experts about it. first, this morning, today marks exactly one year since russia launched its unprovoked war on ukraine. on twitter this morning, ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy recognized the day, writing, quote, on february 24th, millions of us made a choice. not a white flag, but the blue and yellow one. not fleeing, but facing. resisting and fighting.

it was a year of pain, sorrow, faith and unity. and this year, we remained invincible. we know that 2023 will be the year of our victory. here in the united states, the biden administration is marking the day by announcing a new aid package for ukraine, its second of the week. among other things, it includes several new unmanned aerial systems, new high mobile artillery rocket systems and more ammunition. the white house is also imposing new economic sanctions today against more than 200 groups and individuals in russia and other parts of the world that are supporting moscow's war efforts. >> i'll tell you, janet yellen yesterday, the treasury secretary, used her opportunity to speak behind closed doors. let the russians have it. let everybody have it. said anybody that was supporting the russians was supporting the atrocities in ukraine. it was extraordinarily strong and striking, coming from a

secretary of treasury. the treasury secretary. really,eally strong. >> the treasury secretary will be joining us here on "morning joe" in our next hour. g7 leaders are going to meet to announce more sanctions to hold russia accountable. we'll be following that, as well. >> gene robinson. >> gene is here. >> we saw at the beginning -- we saw the tweet from last night. but, man, that image that we bumped in on, i guess it was on instagram first, that statement, "we are here. we are not going anywhere. glory to our fighters. glory to ukraine." it was so strong, and it followed up in the lead-up to the war, when everybody was talking about getting zelenskyy and his wife and family out safely, zelenskyy's response, "i don't need a car, i need

weapons." >> right. >> he was pitch perfect from the beginning and really framed this war. i must say, just like churchill in 1940 when the rest of the world was waiting for britain to collapse, zelenskyy did the same thing just with his will and a determined ukrainian people. >> he absolutely did, joe. you used that clip last night in your excellent special about one year of war in ukraine. and because that was such an electrifying moment. remember, at that time, before he came out with that instagram video, we had assumed that russia was just going to sweep in, that we were going to take kyiv, they were going to find and kill zelenskyy, perhaps his family, other government officials, and that this would basically last a week or two.

and ukraine would be crushed. that, of course, did not happen. not only did it not happen, but zelenskyy came out defiant with his officials surrounding him in that green sort of fatigue t-shirt, the symbol, the uniform of the ukrainian army. and he just -- it was an electric moment. i think, you know, moments matter. i think that moment mattered a lot to what's happened over the last year, to the way ukraine has been able to resist. and, of course, people matter. individuals matter. big, sweeping trends in history matter, but individuals matter, like churchill mattered in world war ii, the battle of britain, zelenskyy matters in the battle for ukraine. >> yes. >> and he was -- he has been --

he has just been amazing and a portrait of leadership. >> he has. remember one year ago, guys, the question was, could ukraine survive a few days of this? could they survive a few weeks of this, let alone months or a year? here they are, they've done much better than survive. and would the west stand in and hang in with ukraine? we see right now the empire state building is lit up in the colors of the ukrainian flag. the eiffel tower, capitals across the world showing not just symbolic support, but the u.s. rolled out a new package on the anniversary. new sanctions on russia on the anniversary. president biden on the streets of kyiv, making the speech in poland. it is clear to russia, and china now, the west isn't going anywhere. it stands with ukraine one year later. >> yeah. we'll have much more on this somber anniversary throughout the show this morning. we want to get to news here at home.

the national transportation safety board says the ohio train derailment and toxic chemical spill could have been prevented. according to a preliminary report, the crew on board the norfolk southern train received an alert about an overheated wheel bearing moments before dozens of cars left the tracks in east palestine. at that point, the wheel baring was 235 degrees above the ambient temperature. investigators say the train had passed two other sensors before, and no alarms went off. the preliminary report was released the same day transportation secretary pete buttigieg visited east palestine. it was his first visit since the derailment happened three weeks ago. buttigieg viewed the wreckage and spoke to the community, pledging the biden administration's ongoing support. >> that's why we've been here from the first hours of the incident as an administration. it's why our interest, both in

what happened here in east palestine and in keeping our railroads safe doesn't go away when some other hot news story comes into the headlines. we're going to be here day in and day out, year in, year out, making our railroads safer and making sure norfolk southern meets its responsibilities. that's a promise and when i take very, very seriously. >> buttigieg responded to criticism from former president donald trump who had visited east palestine the previous day. buttigieg said it was trump's administration that deregulated railroad safety, including suspending the requirement that trains carrying flammable liquids be outfitted with faster brakes. >> one thing he could do is express support for reversing the deregulation that happened on his watch. i heard him say he had nothing to do with it, even though it was in his administration. so he had nothing to do with it and they did it in his

administration against his will, maybe he could come out and say that he supports us moving in a different direction. we're not afraid to own our policies when it comes to raising the bar on regulation. >> this is really, sam stein, this is a problem for all the republicans. this is a problem for donald trump. all the republicans attacking joe biden's response. they have been pushing one deregulation after another deregulation after another deregulation. as pete buttigieg said, even deregulations that seemed to line up, that could have prevented this crash possibly. so transportation secretary did exactly what he should have done. he said, okay, well, so donald trump, you're here, and now, suddenly, you're a born again believer in regulations? okay, help us add regulations to these dangerous -- these dangerous rail lines to keep the

people of cities like east palestine safe. of course, neither trump nor the republicans will do anything about it because, the end of the day, sam, it's probably all about gestures, isn't it? >> yeah. i don't want to be overly cynical, but i think you're right. look, we've been looking into this at "politico" for weeks now. one of the patterns we found is that, one, is the railroad city is a behemoth in washington. they've been very good at getting deregulation through during the trump era. we were the first to report of those safety deregulations that happened. the other thing we found was that, you know, this is not the first -- sadly, not the first train derailment of this magnitude. it does happen somewhat regularly. we could not locate an instance, our reporters could not locate an instance in which there was a public opining for elaine chao, former transportation secretary, to go to the scene of a derailment.

which is not to say she shouldn't have. it's not to say buttigieg shouldn't have gone to east palestine earlier. probably could have and would have saved himself political trouble. but what it says is there is opportunism, shockingly, happening in this moment. the derailment was in a section of the country that jd vance himself said was, quote, our people. what he meant by that was white working class people who felt abandoned because manufacturing jobs had been shipped overseas. you know, obviously, trump ran out there because he sensed a chance to show empathy but also to stick it to the biden administration by being there in the flesh when pete buttigieg was not there in the flesh and when joe biden was overseas in ukraine. yes, there is opportunism happening here, i think that's fair to say. yes, i think you can overplay your hand. now, this is where, of course, i think the democrats suffer a little bit from losing control of one of the branches of congress. what they could do theoretically when congress comes back into session if they had control of

the house is put up a bill saying, we want to enhance regulations on the railroad industry. make it more safe. prevent possibly future accidents like what happened in east palestine from happening again. >> right. >> but they can't do that in the house. they could maybe in the senate, but it's more complicated, would take floor time. that's one of the losses you see when you lose control of the house. >> willie, the thing is, just to show how hypocritical donald trump and the republicans are being, joe biden should immediately propose a bill that reverses every one of donald trump's deregulations that made train safety more tenuous. if they could do that, just to show the hypocrisy. let's see. watch how quickly that bill is killed in the republican house. >> yeah. >> democratic senate could push to try to pass it. see how many republicans in the senate kill it from even being

voted on because they're interested in deregulating these sort of events, making it more dangerous. so that's one. number two, yeah, we shouldn't sit here and blame elaine chao for not going to, you know, every one of the train derailments that happened during the trump administration. no democrat called for it. of course, republicans and their stooges on trump media are calling for it just because, again, they're a party of gestures. they just want to blame people. they want to deregulate. they want to make accidents like this more likely to happen, and then they want to go in and gesture and do absolutely nothing about it. keeping the people of east palestine and across the rest of the country in more perilous position. >> there were train tragedies during the trump years, just as there were during the obama years and the bush years and the

clinton years. as you say, the secretary of transportation did not go. there were train tragedies with fatalities where elaine chao didn't go. no one called for her to go in those cases. but you're right, holding this contrast up between -- they think they have a political point to score here, republicans do, by saying, joe biden was in kyiv. he should have been at this train derailment. they're raising money off that, think they're stirring up support off that. republican senators in the senate right now wrote a letter to the railroad association a couple years ago calling for less regulation, calling for automated braking systems. it goes beyond donald trump. it goes to senators, republicans sitting right now in the senate who called for a lot of this deregulation. we mentioned donald trump earlier. he's calling his stop, as you might imagine, in east palestine a success. he posted on his social media site that his visit on wednesday boosted ratings on social media and tv. there were no ratings for it, of course. he also said his trip meant a

lot to residents and, quote, raised the awareness needed to combat the incompetence of the biden administration. in his words. i guess no surprise here, gene robson, but this is just the kind of thing that's exhausted many republicans even who are looking for an alternative in the 2024 election. >> yeah. it's just silliness. it's just lunacy. the reasons why nobody covered this lie, because why would you? by the way, you did remove some of the regulations that might have prevented or ameliorated this crash. i think there's work to do now for congress and the biden administration, in really looking at railroads and railroad deregulation. and the fact that the railroad companies, only seven freight rail company in the country, and at least six of them are running

much, much longer trains with fewer people. so what could go wrong? well, what could go wrong is the longer trains are heavier. this was a 151-car train with cars filled with toxic materials. so if you have a problem, if you have a derailment, these longer, heavier trains, it makes it that much more violent. the force is multiplied. so the safety procedures and methods and equipment has to be upgraded to keep track with the way railroading is these days. it hasn't been. in fact, it's moved in the wrong direction. that's a potential problem. this was a huge disaster, and we're going to have more unless we get to work. >> well -- >> and let's hope donald trump, when he is finished looking at

his imagiary ratings and passing out trump water bottles. >> and hats. >> passing out campaign hats. let's hope he actually goes on truth social and says that he wants to reverse the damage that he has caused to railroad safety and all of the deregulation that he pushed through, that he signed, that republicans pushed through, that many of them still support, he's now going to side with president biden. side with pete buttigieg. and side with democrats in making sure that this sort of incident doesn't happen again. it's a real tragedy. >> i think buttigieg handled that well and shined a light on exactly what you just said. for some republicans, they might be like, thanks a lot, donald trump, for shining a light on exactly where we fell short when it comes to railroad safety. >> they keep doing this. it is one cell phone after

another cell phone after another cell phone. it is even, you know, kevin mccarthy's extraordinarily reckless decision to release all the tape from january 6th. all that is going to do, regardless of who you release it to, it is going to turn america's attention, kevin, back to when donald trump helped start a riot to try to overturn an election, to try to overturn american democracy. and his people, his people almost killed you and almost killed other members of the house and the senate. do you know how i know that? because you called him on january 6th screaming. >> hysterical. >> when he tried to blame it on antifa, you swore at him historically, saying, "these are your people. call it off, donald. call it off."

then, kevin, you know i wouldn't be talking about this. why am i talking about this. >> why? >> oh, wait a second, he is releasing all the tapes. then, kevin, you went on the floor. you went on the floor and you rightly condemned donald trump. i was so proud of you, finally showing some backbone. finally showing some spine. finally putting the safety of those that you work with ahead of your own, your own craven political ambitions. and then you backed down. you backed down and you grovelled. you went down and shined his shoes and got a picture taken, and you once again showed what a weak, weak human being you are. now, why are we bringing this up, kevin? we're bringing this up because you keep bringing it up.

and this is just yet another self-own by republicans. they can't stop. for god sake, i'm exhausted! i wish reverend al were here, and i can do the james brown thing. fall to the floor, and he could throw the robe over me. i could get up and start talking to republicans again. >> no, you can't. >> about how you need to stop being so stupid so you can start winning election again, so we can once again have two strong parties in america. but that's not going to happen so long as you're consumed with the stupid, the idiotic, well, and the unpatriotic. >> yeah. >> and it is a self-own, just like trump doing what he did in east palestine is a self-own. just about everything they do is a self-own these days. >> yeah, they missed the mark on easy issues. still ahead on "morning joe," accused murderer alex murdaugh takes the witness stand in one of the country's most

closely watched criminal trials. we'll talk to legal analyst danny cevallos of his testimony. plus, mike pence testifying in the january 6th probe? treasury secretary janet yellen is our guest this morning fresh off her confrontation with russian officials at the g20 meeting. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> environmental protection, we waste all of this money. we're going to bring that back to the states. we're going to have other many thing. we are going to cut many of the agencies.

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adds the intelligence of google, you have a home with no worries. brought to you by adt. disbarred south carolina attorney alex murdaugh will continue his testimony for the second straight day in the murder trial against him. the 54-year-old is charged with murder in the fatal shooting of his wife and their 22-year-old son in june of 2021. nbc news correspondent catie beck has the latest. >> reporter: after nearly five weeks of testimony, a stunning surprise. >> i am going to testify. i want to testify. >> reporter: the trial's most anticipated witness takes the stand. alex murdaugh testifies in his own defense. the first questions aimed at the heart of the case. >> did you take this gun or any gun like it and blow your son's brains out on june 7th or any day or any time? >> no, i did not.

>> did you take a blackout, such as this, and fire it into your wife, maggie, leg, torso or any part of her body? >> no, i did not. >> reporter: quick to confront what is perhaps the prosecution's strongest evidence. the video taken by paul murdaugh at the dog kennels, placing him at the scene minutes before the murders. he told investigators he wasn't there but admits now he was lying. >> alex, why did you lie? >> as my addiction evolved over time, i would get in these situations or circumstances where i would get paranoid. >> reporter: murdaugh says he didn't trust state law enforcers and regrets the lie that led to many others. >> you continued lying after that night, did you not? >> once i lied, i continue to lie, yes, sir. >> reporter: emotional and crying throughout, murdaugh's

testimony largely rewrites his timeline on the night of the murders, showering and changing clothes before dinner and describing the moment he discovered the bodies, again saying he checked for signs of life. >> i know i tried to turn him over. >> when you say you tried to turn him over, why were you trying to turn him over? >> i don't know. i don't know. i don't know why i tried to turn him over. my boy is laying face down. >> reporter: later in testimony, alex admits a longtime addiction to opioids, that he stole client funds, but denies being overly concerned about being caught prior to the murders. >> what kind of cases did you normally do? >> reporter: on cross-examination, prosecutors began by pressing murdaugh on the fraud cases, where he admits he stole money from his clients and lied to them. and prosecutors suggesting all the stolen money wasn't going to fund his pill addiction. >> you were generating millions of dollars in fees.

that was not enough for you. would you concede that? >> if by concede that, you mean, was i also stealing money that i shouldn't have, yes, sir, i agree with that. i've said that repeatedly. >> catie beck reporting there from south carolina. let's bring in msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos. a lot to talk about. let's take a step back because i think so many people just really tuned into this trial yesterday because of the testimony of murdaugh was so gripping and went on for so long. what exactly are the events of that day? what is he accused of? i think for a lot of people, they wonder about motive. what could drive a man, allegedly, to kill his own son in cold blood? >> alex murdaugh has been charged with the murder of his wife and his son, paul. the allegations by the prosecution, they have developed a motive theory, and it's this.

that murdaugh was so beset by all of these allegations of financial crimes against him, crimes that he apparently just admitted to on the stand, that he, as a ploy to get sympathy, killed his wife and son. i think this is a bit too far from the prosecution. i understand, they have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, but this might be overkill. it's a theory that maybe jurors might not be able to buy. everyone has known criminals, has known people who built people or read about them. very few of them have ever killed their wife and son to get sympathy. if that's why he did it, it hasn't even worked. those financial crimes, those prosecutions are still pending. in fact, like i said, he apparently just admitted to them on the stand. >> so, danny, what is the alternative theory then from the defense? who else may have done this? are there other suspects?

is there an alternate theory of the case from murdaugh and his attorneys? >> well, that's what i think is the problem for the defense. throughout the prosecution's case in chief, they cut away at it, suggesting, vaguely, that there may have been a third party involved. they had expert testimony that the shooter was probably around 5 feet tall, but alex murdaugh is something like 6'4". they also suggested, at least murdaugh did, that there were people who wanted to do his son, paul, harm. but beyond that, there hasn't been that much of a third party defense out of the defense in their case in chief. i expect that if that was their theory, they'd come out of the gate with that really strong. but, so far, this is what the prosecution's evidence seems to show. number one, there was one person found at the crime scene, murdaugh. number two, that person handled a gun at the crime scene. you can hear him in 911 calls saying, "i'm going back to the house to get a gun."

finally, this is somebody who has lied about everything. he didn't just lie about his financial crimes. he lied to law enforcement. so the only person you have at the crime scene is a habitual liar what had his hands on a firearm when the police found him. that's a huge problem for the defense. if they were going to develop their some other dude did it, soddi, as we call it, they'd have a theory of the third party. we haven't heard that yet. nothing can change the fact that murdaugh was the person at the crime scene. there doesn't appear to be any evidence that anyone else was there. >> as to the height issue, danny, dave aronberg says that, possibly, he could have been on a golf cart, which could have perhaps mitigated that problem. i'm just curious what you thought of his testimony overall, like, after seeing it. would you have put a witness up

like this? and knowing what to look for in witness testimony, how did he do? did he help his case, or did he do things like overexplain certain details that give you pause? >> you hit right on it, mika. everyone knows a habitual liar. defense attorneys know more of them than average people. one of the red flags is this, beware the person who gives a ton of detail about inconsequential matters. murdaugh spent about 3 minutes on how to get a chicken out of a dog's mouth. but when it came to questions like, "hey, where were you exactly at the time of the supposed killings?" i'm not so sure. i really don't know. why did you go back to the house to get a gun? why were you carrying a firearm with the wrong ammunition in it? you know, i don't really know. he gets really vague when it comes to the details that matter. that's why i tend to think that his decision to testify was his alone, maybe against his attorney's advice.

you kind of got a hint to that when his counsel said something to the effect of, "mr. murdaugh wishes to take stand." normally, you never put your client on the stand unless you absolutely have to get a piece of information out of 'em that you can't get from anywhere educational. murdaugh already denied shooting his wife and son on police interrogation video tape. there wasn't that much else i think they could have gotten out of him that they needed, that they couldn't get elsewhere. so this, to me, smells like he wanted to testify, not his attorneys. >> he'll be back on the stand today when the trial resumes at 9:30 eastern time. we'll be bringing it to msnbc viewers live. msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos, thank you very much for your analysis think. coming up, the lead investigator for the january 6th select committee joins us with his perspective of the potential's inquiry on the capitol attack. "morning joe" will be right back.

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beautiful shot of the white house at 43 past the hour. the justice department has asked a federal judge to compel former vice president mike pence to testify as part of the special counsel investigation into january 6th and efforts to overturn the 2020 election. according to "the new york times," federal prosecutors have asked the judge to set aside any claims of executive privilege that pence might raise to avoid answering questions. this latest development comes after pence signalled he would oppose a subpoena from the special counsel's office. "the times" reports last week that pence was planning to invoke the constitution's speech or debate clause, arguing his previous role as president of the senate --

>> i'm sorry. >> -- meant he was protected from legal scrutiny by the executive branch. >> gene robinson. >> including -- >> that's a stupid argument. >> -- the justice department. >> gene, that's a stupid, stupid legal argument. because, you know, first of all, you had a riot going on at the time. >> yeah. >> mike pence was at the center of all of the events on sedition. donald trump trying to force him to commit decision. when he refused to do so, donald trump sticking the mob on him. his own secret servicemen thinking they were going to die that day. also, pence makes the argument, and this is at the heart of his argument, that he was telling donald trump -- and, by the way, i always give the footnote of thanks to dan quell, former vice president who told pence, you are in an administerial role, dude, okay?

you are in an administerial role. you can't do anything but what the constitution tells you to do. so he's an administerial role even in this position. >> mm-hmm, yeah. >> so there is just no privilege based on what his argument to donald trump was. >> yeah. i don't think -- i mean, i'm obviously not a lawyer, certainly not a constitutional lawyer, but i don't see how this fits under the speech and debate clause. it is a novel argument. i think it's kind of off the wall. i'd be surprised if it flies. i don't know what it gets mike pence. i mean, look, he's going to have to make a decision at some point. is he going to tell the truth and be honest about donald trump and speak forthrightly, or is he not? he seems to want it both ways as he gears up his own presidential

run. and he can't have it both ways. i think for a man who claimed to take his job very seriously, for him not to understand that this is his duty, that it is his duty to tell the truth and the whole truth about january 6th, it's weird. counterintuitive. it doesn't make sense given the image he's trying to project of someone who played the straight. >> yeah. hey, and don't we have some more news about mike pence this morning? like, he said there were going to be more people competing. didn't he, alex, didn't he go after ron desantis yesterday? >> he did as a pencian way. he wasn't really going after him, but there was criticism of his policies down in florida. we'll play that in apencey crit

>> yeah. this morning, we are learning about what went on behind the scenes of the house select committee that investigated the january 6th attack on the capitol. timothy hayfe, the former lead on the committee, is speaking out and joins us now. thank you very much for joining us this morning. i guess, first of all, give us your thoughts on how you felt when these different revolutions -- revelations emerged. >> predictable that the special counsel would want to speak to him. i think jack smith and his team are, understandably, trying to get information from every possible source before they make the momentous decision of an indictment of a former president. mike pence witnessed one at the center of this, would have direct information. understandably, he is stepping to mike pence, to the

president's children. he'll turn over every rock before a final decision is made. >> we had a guest that dismissed the entire january 6th committee, "oh, that was just political." what do you say to people who say such a thing? >> yeah, it was an attack on the united states capitol. not a politically motivated investigation. it was a bipartisan investigation, very unusual on capitol hill. we had republican members. we didn't have a majority and minority. all of our witnesses, literally every person who had material information, was someone who was in the trump administration and the trump campaign, trump family. >> underline that again for me. just stop again right there. because in most of these committees that we see, you'll have democrats bring on liberals. you'll have republicans bring on conservatives. they've been fighting these idealogical wars for years. so you're sitting there going, okay, i know what that person is going to say. i know what that person is going to say. i want you to underline again

the fact, that every single person that delivered damning testimony on what donald trump did january 6th was a trumper, defending through two impeachments, defended him through the horrific things he said over four years, defended him over caged children, defended him time and time again. yet, on january 6th, they woke up and all of these people that you called, they were all trumpers. >> exactly. look, the folks in the room where it happened were all very close to the former president. it's ironic to me that people call this a politically motivated investigation, when our star witnesses were bill barr, pat cipollone, jared and ivanka. again, these were people not with a bias to try to hurt the former president, but people who were on his team, who sincerely wanted him to win, but acknowledged that he didn't do

the right thing when it counted. >> timothy, good morning. one of the arguments trump supporters have made is that this january 6th was spontaneous, there was a protest, a rally at the ellipse and it got out of hand. one of the headlines out of the select committee, all the research and investigation you did, was the premeditation, was the intent, which gets at the heart of what the special counsel will have to prove. is there any doubt in your mind that former president trump had intent to commit these crimes that you've recommended to the doj? >> not at all. that's the basis of the criminal referral. the evidence of specific intent to disrupt the joint session, the statute says obstruct, interfere or influence an official proceeding. we developed ample evidence that the president and others had such specific intent. the day of january 6th was really the last, desperate part of a multi-part plan to prevent

the transfer of power. all the way through, from pressure on the justice department to pressure on state legislatures to pressure on mike pence to launching a mob at the capitol during the joint session informs the intent to prevent the transfer of power. no, absolutely no doubt. we wouldn't have made a criminal referral had there been any question about the intent issue. >> one of the other desperate arguments we've heard is that the media or you on the committee have somehow blown january 6th out of proportion. that, really, at the end of the day, it was a few people who broke into the capitol. meanwhile, we've seen video of people beating cops with american flags, smashing their heads into revolving doors, calling for the hanging of mike pence, seeking out nancy pelosi. the list goes on and on and on. what surprised you most? because you saw so much evidence, you talked to so many witnesses, at the end of the day? were you stunned by how close we came to really even a more terrible day than it already was? >> yes. to be frank, absolutely.

look, i grew up believing that democracy is durable, that our institutions hold, and we came close here to that not being accurate, right? democracy has to be earned repeatedly. it requires good people doing the right thing. thankfully, that happened here, but it was tenuous. i didn't fully appreciate how tenuous and how close this plan came to success until i was immersed for 18 months in what happened before and on january 6th. >> timothy, sam stein here. i have a two-part question. would love if you answered both of them. one is, did you ever have a reasonable hope that donald trump would appear before your committee? the second one is, had he not defied the subpoena and had he sat down and not pled the fifth to every question you asked, what's the one question, above all else, that you would have asked him? >> always hoped that he would come in and thought that there's

a fair amount of hubris with the former president, and he may think that he could answer questions and continue to spin some of the things that he had said publicly about january 6th. so while we knew going in it was unlikely, you never know exactly with him. we were prepared to ask him questions. the two things that we would want to know, first and foremost, were acknowledgment of loss of the election. try to get into his understanding of the lack of evidence of election fraud. then, real time, what he was doing, what he was thinking, what he was not doing on january 6th. we wanted to hear his account of that day. we had a lot of evidence that he was encouraged to take more aggressive action to disperse the violence, that he refused or resisted to that. we would have spent a lot of time on his awareness of the election loss and a lot of time on what happened during the day on january 6th. >> all right. former lead investigator for january 6th select committee, timothy heaphy, thank you very

much for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. here is former vice president and potential 2024 candidate mike pence. >> we're getting pencey here? >> this is very pencey. >> pencey zone, everybody. >> yeah, it is sort of different. a different kind of attack situation. >> sort of a pencey attack. >> it is pencey. >> not a pencer, a pencey. >> right. >> okay. >> here he is. >> i'm ready. >> mike pence. >> mm-hmm. >> weighing in on republicans' underperformance in the 2022 elections and his thoughts on 2024. >> mm-hmm. >> our candidates we're focused on the past, particularly on relitigating the last election, did not do well, including in areas we should have done very well. >> do you say we need someone else on 2024? you're on record saying that. >> we'll have better choices, i really do. >> than former president trump. >> i think we'll have better choices. >> i never really understood, willie, in "harry potter," why they could never say voldemort's

name, you know, but harry did, right? harry did. it made all the difference. >> right. >> dumbledore, you know, "you shouldn't have come tonight, tom." they said his name. good things happened to harry, right? right? i think it kind of intimidated voldemort. when he said, "you shouldn't have come here, tom," it freaked him out. >> are you okay? >> everybody knows what i'm talking about. >> i don't think they do. >> i've seen every "harry potter" 134 times, and there are a lot of people out there like me. anyway, you notice, it was the name that could not be said. trump is the voldemort of the republican party. mike pence won't say his name. nikki haley won't say his name. pompeo won't say his name.

>> say my name. >> nobody will say voldemort's name. it is pencey. >> they're talking about another character in the book, but they have to get past voldemort before they can get to the next character. they're calling about joe biden a lot, which you understand, of course, but we have a primary before we have a general election. by the way, joe, harry potter was the hero of the story, the one who said voldemort's name. they named the book after him. rides in orlando, the whole thing. >> fantastic. >> he's the guy. pence also criticized, kind of, florida republican governor ron desantis over florida's bill that revoked disney of its special tax status. >> i have concerns about the follow-on. look, disney stepped into the fray. they lost. >> but then they -- >> the idea that they're the taxing authority, you know, i -- that was beyond the scope of what i as a conservative limited government republican would be prepared to do. >> you'll remember, desantis

signed legislation that took away disney's decades old special tax district status after disney executives spoke out against florida's law that limits the discussion of sexual orientation or gender identity in schools. so kind of a little criticism. you see the outlines of a guy who wants to run for president and kind of feeling the borders of who he can go after and who he can't. >> it's just a little pencey. >> yeah. >> i mean, he doesn't go after desantis. >> just a tap, lightly. >> just a tap. >> tiptoe, tiptoe. >> by the way, if you want to go to harry potter world, it's actually at universal in orlando. >> oh, yeah. >> disney doesn't have any of the harry potter stuff, kids. you have to go to universal. >> joe, i was there last weekend with my family. the harry potter world at universal. oh, my gosh, the new hadrid ride. they're building more harry potter stuff, it's incredible. i digress. >> we digress, yes.

it's wonderful. but the thing is, though, we've said this before, gene robinson, that if you're a governor and you attack large corporations because you don't like their politics, you attack small businesses because you don't like their politics, and you tell them that they cannot keep their premises safe based on how they, as private business owners, want to keep it safe. if you're stepping in and putting the boot of big government down on cruise lines that are desperate to restart cruises in the middle of covid but want to take precautions and, yet, you have a centralized state actor like ron desantis going, "no, disney, you can't do this. cruise lines, you can't do that. small businesses, you can't do that. school boards, you can't do this." there is nothing, nothing

conservative based on the definition that mike pence and i grew up with, in the pre-trump era. there is nothing conservative about that. that is big government with a "b" and a "g." >> yeah, it is certainly not conservative. you know, this jack-booted approach that desantis takes, this humorless, i'm a tough guy, i'll go after you approach, you know, it worked in florida. got him a big re-election victory. i am still very skeptical that this works across the country the way he thinks it does. >> yeah. >> i think, you know, as more people get to know him and as he is around a while, the longer that goes on, the worse it is for desantis, in my opinion. but that was the penciest of

attacks i've ever heard, but it was an attack. we'll see how that develops. we'll see if others go after him for this decidedly unrepublican, unconservative move he's taken against disney, against mickey mouse. incredible. >> yeah. attacking mickey mouse, attacking the tampa bay rays because -- and taking away something that the legislature wanted to pass, a tax benefit, because they tweeted out their sympathies to young children who had just been slaughtered in uvalde schools. all of these act, maybe they play well in tallahassee, they're really small ball. we'll see. we'll see how they work on the national stage. yeah, he won huge in florida. he won huge in florida. in part, sam, because the democratic party never showed up, never gave charlie crist any support, never gave him a chance

to keep it close. then everybody got wiped out. i'm curious if desantis' act of attacking mickey mouse, attacking baseball teams, whether he can take that nationwide. >> i may be a little more bullish, i think, than eugene. not nationwide, necessarily, but i do think it might play in a republican primary. it is, for lack of -- you know, if we're speaking crudely about it, it is a trumpy playbook that he is operating. use the power of the state to achieve your political ends. you know, he got cheered wildly by conservatives for going after disney, for going after the rays. they've longed for conservatives to use state power to do just that. so he did it. i think it's made him -- i think it's made him a kind of cult hero figure on the right. i think the question is, and this brings it back to pence, you know, ultimately, someone's

got to take on trump, right? someone's got to go after him by name. it's early, and i get it. ron desantis hasn't announced he is going to run for president yet. so far, from pence to nikki haley to others who have shown they're going to jump into this race, no one is willing to go after trump. what it seems like to me, we'll have a reenactment of 2016. everyone will try to be the last one standing against trump. they'll go after desantis, and then trump might just, by virtue of that, end up coasting to the nomination. >> you know, willie, though, it is so crazy when you look at what republicans have been willing to do, to sell out every value they've ever believed in. i was having a conversation a couple days ago with some friends who grew up in the church like me. every one of them had the same experience with evangelicals that were still hard core trump

supporters. one was saying -- i was talking to him, and the person said, you know, i go through what he did every day, and he listed it. talked about the vanity, the lying, the self-serving. he said, every one of those things are the antithesis of what jesus christ did and what jesus christ taught. like i said, you look at every single one of the beatitudes. jesus says, these are those. trump does the opposite of it. and the answer was, and the answer i always hear is, "well, yes, that's true. he doesn't do anything that jesus said he should do. but maybe it takes that type of person to get what we need done." well, that's the irony about, like, small business conservatives, these people that i grew up around who were supposed to be small business conservatives. they want leaders that use the power of the state. they want strongmen. they want authoritarians.

how ironic is it that my party that i came to congress with in 1994, we were all supposed to be for small government. now, they have morphed, evolved into what they hated. they want big government. they want strongmen. they want authoritarians to use the power of big government to tell local school districts what to do, to tell small businesses what to do. to tell cruise lines what to do. to tell disney world what to do. to tell the tampa bay rays what to do. they think that's cool because it shows strength. no, pence was right, that's the opposite of being conservative. if you want to vote for an authoritarian, you love big government, that's fine. don't call yourself a conservative because you're not. >> yeah. i mean, to your first point

about evangelicals, the line, we both heard for many years when we'd confront them about that with donald trump is, "well, we're electing a president, not a saint. what are you going to do?" in their eyes, that was born out. three supreme court justices and roe versus wade overturned. it was about power, not about whether he behaved like jesus. to your other point about small business, you're right, i mean, you have governors now reaching in, not just into businesses but to elementary school libraries, going down the chain that far and saying, "that book about hank aaron or about roberto clemente which mentions racism, we don't want our kids to see that." yes, it is not small government by any means. it's perceived strength, not a picture of strength i think you or i agree with. a governor or executive showing strength in ways they believe accumulates power and gives them -- earns them votes, money and everything else.

>> well, right. so much of it has to do with just spreading fear. you brought up hank aaron. we've talked about roberto clemente here. yesterday, ron desantis was shocked. he was shocked and stunned and deeply saddened. shocked, stunned and deeply saddened that he was being mischaracterized as someone that got books about hank aaron removed from shelves. well, what he did was he deliberately passed a law that was deliberately vague, that has scared teachers, that has scared librarians, that scared everybody. because if you do anything that suggests that black people in the 1950s or '60s, like, faced discrimination from white people, and it makes white people feel bad, talk to teachers. talk to principals. talk to school administrators across the state of florida. they are nervous.

they have asked for guidance from the department of education in florida. it is intentionally vague to spread fear. and it spreads the fear, and people overreact. then when they overreact because they're afraid they're going to lose their job, then ron desantis holds a press conference and goes, "oh, this is stupid. people are saying that i'm doing this, and i'm not." i mean, come on. does he think that just because he's brick tamilynn that the rest of us are? he may love lamp, all right? the rest of us don't have to love lamp. the rest of us don't have to use brick logic. we can see through it. when we look through it, we see a big government republican that wants to use the power of the centralized state to scare small businesses, scare teachers, scare local school boards to do the very thing, mika, that we

fought against as small government conservatives. let's get the power out of washington. put it in school boards. put it in classrooms. put it in the hands of parents and teachers. this is what i said my entire career. now, you have a guy that's doing just the opposite. nothing conservative about that. then he goes out and whines. if he wants to stop being mischaracterized, he needs to be specific about it and tell people, "here are the standards. no, of course the hank aaron book. the roberto clemente book, they're not bad. even though they do show that black people were treated horribly by white people back in the '40s and '50s when hank aaron and roberto clemente and jackie robinson and gayle sayers

and other athletes went from town to town to town." that's not to make little kids feel bad, it's to teach them history so we can learn from it. so we can be better. so we can move toward a more perfect union. >> in many cases, this is not the republican party that -- it is unrecognizable. >> it is. >> sam stein, eugene robinson, thank you both for being on this morning. we're about ten minutes past the top of the hour. today marks exactly one year since russia launched its unprovoked war on ukraine. on twitter this morning, ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy recognized the day. writing, quote, on february 24th, millions of us made a choice. not a white flag, but the blue and yellow one. not fleeing but facing. resisting and fighting. it was a year of pain, sorrow, faith and unity. and, this year, we remained invincible. we know that 2023 will be the

year of our victory. here is the video he released. ♪♪ [ gunfire ] >> the biden administration announced a new aid package for ukraine that includes several new, unmanned aerial systems, new high mobility artillery rocket systems and more ammunition. the white house is also imposing new economic sanctions today against more than 200 groups and individuals in russia and other

parts of the world that are supporting moscow's war efforts. here is some of what administration and european officials told joe about the conflict. >> you've said before that the russians have already lost the war. what did you mean by that. >> the initial political objective was to seize most, if not all, of ukraine, and collapse that government. that failed. so they didn't achieve their political objectives that they set out to do. they didn't achieve them through military means at the start or the war. they failed. operationally, they tried to seize the capital, donbas, various parts of the country, and that failed, too. >> the difference between the russian military we thought we knew and the russian military we see every day on the battlefield in ukraine, it is stark. it is acute. and one of the reasons for it, honestly, is basically deep, systemic corruption and rot in that system. so there isn't the kind of accountability that you'd expect from a professional military. part of it is their equipment

just isn't very good. certainly not compared to the kinds of western military sis tep systems in our armed forces and what we've been supplying to ukraine. >> look what's happened inside russia. more than a million russians have left since february of last year. more than 1,000 businesses from around the world have left russia because the reputational cost of doing business there is too great. horrifically, 200,000 russian casualties dead and wounded in ukraine in less than a year. i wish that we could talk even more directly to the russian people. because if we could, and we try, but i think the question to ask is this, how is what putin has done in ukraine done anything to make your life better? >> i think we've seen that putin has done three massive strategic mistakes. many mistakes, but these were exceptional. first of all, he has miscalculated the bravery and the courage of the ukrainian people. but he has also completely

miscalculated the unity and the determination and the resolve of the european union. and the third point was that he tried to blackmail us with energy. we were overdependent on russian fossil fuels before the war started. he tried to blackmail us with energy. he completely miscalculated that we would stand together. >> we'll have more from those interviews later in the show. joining us now, we have presidential historian doris kearns goodwin. she is a pulitzer prize winning author, including of "leadership in turbulent times." also with us, contributor mike barnicle. france's minister delegate for public accounts, gabriel atal. and for "the new york times," roger cohen. "an affirming flame and

medications on life and politics." there is an essay on the state of the world. >> and we think everybody for joining the 7:00 hour. also titled "good morning, paris." greatly appreciate it. doris, let me begin with you. tell me, what have you learned as a historian over the past year? i keep thinking of linen quote, years go by where nothing happens, weeks go by where years and decades happen. i feel a decade has happened over the past year. >> without a question, joe. it's just been when you look back at that year and what was expected of the ukrainian forces and the ukrainian people, it does show the magic of leadership. there's no question that we are in the presence of somebody who is able to give their strength and their confidence, zelenskyy did, to the ukrainian people, and it's made all the difference in the world. it is not just the lack of equipment or corruption of the russian army, it's what the ukrainian people with that leadership have been able to do.

i keep remembering a video we saw that zelenskyy did that was so powerful. i mean, he went to a bombed out area, and he pointed out the pieces of destruction. this was my car. this was somebody's dog. this was somebody's house. this was somebody's father, somebody's daughter. then he pivoted and said, "but the russians don't understand that we will win. we will build these cities again." they showed built cities. we will sing again. we will honor the dead. i mean, it was an extraordinary use of media. he's done that in capital after capital around the world, just add biden has been able to keep that coalition together. think of zelenskyy going from one capital to another, including ours, and being able to project that confidence to the american people. i remember when he was at the joint session of our congress. everybody was clapping for him. he said, "no, no, it's not me, it's the ukrainian people." that's when leadership and people become one. it is very hard to stop that when that happens. that's what churchill was able to do. it was that same year, he had a

year from may of 1940 when they were the only country standing alone against the german blitzkrieg. everybody thought they'd be invaded by germany in six months. instead, he held out. the air force won. he said, never had so many owed so much to so few. houses would be open and stores would say, "more open than usual," the defiance churchill's words had given. we're seeing the morale of people from leadership. now, we have to get them the weapons they need to get on the offensive. there's more to be done. >> roger, a year ago in the "times," you wrote, "mr. putin is an enigma, but he's also the most public of figures, seen from the perspective of his reckless gamble in ukraine. a picture emerges of a man that sees almost every move by the west as a slight against russia, and perhaps also himself. as the grievances mounted piece by piece, year by year, the distinction blurred. in effect, he became the state.

he merged with russia. their fates fused in an increasingly messianic version of restored imperial glory." is he still an enigma? >> i think less so. we've seen what a brutal autocrat vladimir putin became. there's no question that, in this invasion, he made an enormous mistake. at the time he launched the invasion, he'd been on a roll. he'd annexed crimea, moved into the donbas, dominated the end game in syria. he'd flattened aleppo. nobody seemed to care, ultimately. germany went on buying gas and fossil fuels. united states protested but not strongly. as a result, i think when he went to ukraine, he had a feeling of invincibility. in the isolation of covid, he

became obsessed with ukraine and the fact that it wasn't a real nation, in his view. boy, has he ever forged a nation. ukraine has grown in its nationhood and is absolutely committed to victory in this war. now, what exactly victory is, we don't know. is it a return to the february '23 lines? is it recapturing crimea? is it the fall of putin? it is hard to know. what we do know from history is that even though russia has suffered grave setbacks, the limits to russia's ability to absorb pain are not really known. it is very, very high. this is a country where 11 time zones, and that strategic depth, well, just look at napoleon, look at hitler. so how exactly can russia be defeated? that is the question today as we go into the second year of the war that is before volodymyr

zelenskyy, the ukrainian president, and europe and the west. >> good morning. it is good to see you. france has committed something like 1.5 billion american dollars to support the war effort there. president macron last year was trying to speak with president putin to negotiate some kind of way out of this war. president macron said recently he hasn't spoken to putin since september, realizing the conversations probably weren't fruitful. is there hope in europe, is there hope from france that there is a peaceful way out of this? do you think hold out some hope that putin, somehow, someway, may be open to a way out of this? >> well, good morning. what we are aiming at is ukraine's victory. yes, if a peaceful way is possible, we have to search for it. i think the first conclusion we can make a year after the invasion began is that russia went through major failures.

the failure on the battlefield with the incapability to win on this field. the failure to rally other countries around, an anti-western union against us. and the failure to foresee the consequences of this war. what we are seeing now is russia getting weaker and more isolated every day. we see european countries such as finland and sweden wanting to join nato as soon as possible. i think putin didn't foresee this when he started this invasion. so this war could be long. we must stand with ukraine and keep on standing with ukraine. the european union spent $73 billion in military, financial, economic and humanitarian assistance. i think one other conclusion is that a year after the beginning of the war, we are more united than ever against russia's

brutality and imperialism. >> in december 1940, president fdr gave his famous arsenal of democracy speech. it was one of his fireside chats that year which he used to educate the public in order to move them from isolationism to support of england during world war ii. take a listen. >> as planes and ships and guns and shells are produced, your government, with its defense experts, can then determine how best to use them to defend this hemisphere. the decision as to how much shall be sent abroad and how much shall remain at home must be made on the basis of our overall military necessities. we must be the great arsenal of

democracy. for us, this is an emergency, as serious as war itself. we must apply ourselves to our task with the same resolution, the same sense of urgency, the same spirit of patriotism and sacrifice as we would show were we at war. >> doris, over 80 years later, president joe biden leads another allied coalition against a threat to europe. he made the case on the world stage this week. what do you think? >> yeah, i think the combination of going to ukraine in that surprise visit and the words he used in warsaw have captured the attention, really, of the world and of our country. the real challenge still now is to keep that bully pulpit going. i mean, after roosevelt gave that arsenal of democracy speech, he then called for lend-lease.

it looked like it was not going to pass the congress. we were so isolationisolationis. we were only 18th in military power. we had 400 fighter planes. yet, he wanted to send a quarter of our planes over to england. generals said to him, if you do this and england fails as we think they will in six months' time, and our weapons are found in germans' hands, you will be impeached or hung by a lamp post. he did it anyway. just listening to that voice, a ray for that voice. the night he gave the democracy of arsenal speech, tens of thousands of londoners stayed up at 3:30 in the morning to listen to it. the same night, they were bombed in london. the germans knew they wanted to counter the morale the speech would do. instead, the next morning as churchill walked around, he wrote to roosevelt and said, people are more excited and committed than ever before because you are with us. that's what biden, i think, was able to do, to connect us to the other nations, the nato nations, connect us to ukraine in an emotional way. now, coming home, he's going to

have a campaign to run potentially. he's got to worry about what is going on domestically. how to keep that focus at a time when only 26% of the people in the latest poll said we should have a strong connection to ukraine. it's got to keep going. domestic stuff shouldn't overlay it. maybe he should have the republican and democratic leaders of the congress over for a dinner in the white house to tell them all about the trip. it's one of the things lbj would do. there's so few times you have social engagements in the white house. use it as the people's house. he has an extraordinary story to tell of how he got there, what it was like. that's what i would do if i were president biden. have them there right away and just rope them in. we've got to keep helping ukraine. >> the bipartisan support, there are republicans, again, standing shoulder to shoulder with the president. you talk about fdr, talk about -- we've talked about harry truman in the past, who would work with the republicas side by side. it really does make all the

difference. presidential historian doris kearns goodwin, thank you so much. great seeing ya. let's keep our fingers crossed. >> you, too. >> for the red sox this year. doris, i'll see you at fenway. >> all right. see you at fenway. >> going to be tough. so, roger, your book, "an affirming flame," my gosh, you take us through 15 extraordinarily tumultuous years in american history, from 2005 to 2020. i'm curious, from your vantage point, talk about what you've seen over the past few years regarding europe's relationship with america, france's relationship with america, moving from a president who

wanted to tear nato apart piece by piece to this president, who believes in nato. we've had miscues with nuclear subs and a few other things. talk about how joe biden and america is doing from the eyes of parisians, the eyes of the french, the eyes of our nato allies. >> joe, to state the obvious, it's been a tumultuous time. i think at the end of the cold war, we all thought, okay, liberal democracy has won. the rule of law, open markets, rules-based international order. instead of that, we saw the rise of aggressive forms of nationalism, both in europe and the united states with former president trump. i covered the war in bosnia, and i saw 100,000 dead there and what that kind of frenzied

nationalism could do. i never thought that sort of blood and soil ethos could come to the united states. for various reasons, it did. i think one of the themes of the book and one of the things i've been most concerned with is the need to preserve democracy. simple as that. we all saw what happened on january 6th here. we've come pretty close to the precipice. yeah, president trump really did not value the transatlantic relationship at all. it's transatlantic that has anchored the security of europe for a long time. he simply trashed that. i think what president biden, jake sullivan and others have done in terms of reestablishing that bond, which i personally

feel remains extremely important, has been quite something. i think we only need to imagine for a moment what might have happened. we came close, if this war had broken out in ukraine during a trump presidency. it is hard to imagine he would have considered it important to defend freedom in europe. it so happens that by a few tens of thousands of votes, that did not happen. i would say that president biden's leadership has been pretty extraordinary. there has been a real sea change in europe. the 27-nation european union has been a peace magnet. it spread and grew based on the idea that peace would come to the european continent at last. the degree of change, of mentality europe had to go through in the past year, to understand that there is a just

war going on in ukraine, and that europe has to get used to the idea again that sometimes force, force is needed to achieve your strategic aims and, therefore, defense budgets have to go up, ammunition production has to go up, and, therefore, radical steps have to be made in terms of changing the energy. it's a change on many policy levels, but the deepest change, joe, in my view is this change of mentality in europe, which has been something to behold. >> minister attal, let me ask you about that. talk about the change in attitude across europe from what you've seen. obviously, there has been close focus from washington, d.c., to kyiv on germany. germany talking about building their budget. there's been some skepticism

from kyiv they'll actually do that. do you believe germany, other countries in europe are feeling the necessity to increase their military budgets? they've said they're going to do that. do you think they'll follow through on that? >> yes. we're facing major challenges, the war on ukraine but also climate change and all the threatening on our democracies. i think the idea that came up a lot in all the european countries, including germany and france, is the need for european sovereignty. for a european sovereignty, you must invest in means to build some autonomic energy. we've been increasing the defense budgets in france by 75% since emmanuel macron's election in 2017. other european countries are

also committed in increasing defense budget. we also are trying to build european defense system. if we want to be strong against big and powerful countries, we must act as europeans allied. i think one of the, i would say, positive things that happened after the war in ukraine, is that many minds changed through europe and through countries that were a bit skeptical about that idea before this war. >> france's minister delegate for public accounts, gabriel attal, thank you very much for being on the show. >> thanks so much. >> "new york times" roger cohen, thank you for having you on, as well. >> thank you, mika. >> his collection of columns is "an affirming flame, meditations on life and politics." >> it really covers an

extraordinary time. >> yeah. >> by such a gifted writer. there's so many of his columns that i remember years later. >> yeah. >> i can't wait to go through the book again. >> absolutely. still ahead on "morning joe," more of joe's exclusive interview with the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, general mark milley. why he says russia has already failed in ukraine. plus, today marks three weeks since that toxic train derailment in ohio. we'll be joined by an attorney from the law firm spearheading the class action litigation against norfolk southern. also ahead, accused murderer alex murdaugh is expected to take the stand once again this morning. we'll bring that to you live when it gets under way. plus, treasury secretary janet yellen will be our guest this morning. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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beautiful shot of capitol hill on this friday morning. it's 37 past the hour. treasury secretary janet yellen directly confronted senior russian officials during the g20 meeting of financial ministers today. in remarks during the meeting in bangalore, india, yellen addressed the russian representatives saying, quote, their continued work for the kremlin makes them complicit in putin's atrocities. they bear responsibility for the lives and livelihoods being taken in ukraine. treasury secretary yellen joins us now. we want to note there is a pretty significant delay in the transmission for this conversation. madam secretary, if you first could go further in telling us what you said directly to the russians, what their reaction was, and what is the price you hope they will pay?

>> well, i thought it was important to confront the russians, to be clear that they bear responsibility, both for the immense suffering and harm that they have inflicted on ukraine and the ukrainian people. because of this brutal and unprovoked attack on a democratic government and people. i wanted to point out the war that they launched has inflicted harm throughout the global economy, including, perhaps, the worst damage to very low-income countries that are seeing food prices and energy prices rise. the g20 is concerned with the global economy and its plight, and i think there's widespread

agreement that ending this brutal war on ukraine is the single most important policy change that would benefit the global economy and its outlook. >> secretary yellen, thank you so much for being with us. i wanted to ask you what your assessment was of how russia's economy is doing in the face of sanctions. with the one-year anniversary of this war coming up, we've seen articles talking about how badly it's been damaged. other articles suggest that all the sanctions aren't having an impact at all. what can you tell us from your important vantage point? are the sanctions having a significant impact on russia? >> i believe our sanctions are having a significant impact, and we continue to ramp up the sanctions as we see ways to strengthen them and to diminish

evasion. in fact, the treasury department is announcing today or has announced already this morning a set of additional, significant sanctions that we're placing on russian individuals, on officials, on financial institutions. so a main objective of our sanctions has been to degrade russia's ability to wage war. to deprive it of the goods through sanctions and export controls it needs to supply its military. and i think we have been quite successful in doing that. over 9,000 russian tanks have been destroyed over the last year, and the biggest tank factories are shut down because they are unable to gain access to the inputs that they need to

repair or rebuild tanks. we're seeing them really trying to look all over the world to find the equipment that they need to supply their military. they're turning to north korea, to iran, and it's become extremely difficult for them to get the advanced inputs they need to produce the missiles and artillery they need. in addition to depriving them of the equipment they need to wage war, we're also working through our sanctions. in particular, through a cap we have placed on the price they are allowed to receive for selling crude oil and refined products like diesel into world markets. we're depriving them of the revenue that they need to wage

war. instead of budget surpluses which they had and plan to continue having, they're now faced with significant deficits. their crude oil they're selling globally now sells at a very substantial discount because of these price caps to global oil benchmarks. their revenues are down almost 50% from their highs after the war began. they're running deficits and running down their buffers of assets that they saved for a rainy day, they're using up those assets. so i -- we keep putting in additional sanctions. an important aspect of this is we've worked very

collaboratively with a coalition of allies, the g7, the european union, australia, other country s, so it is difficult for russia to evade these sanctions. we're cracking down when we see it. >> i'm curious, we've watched chinese diplomats tour, first, europe this week, and ending up in moscow, trying to visit both ways, to reassure the europeans we're still with you, need you economically, you need us economically, but sending all the signs to vladimir putin that they stand with him in this war, as well, though. we have not seen evidence yet, maybe you have, of material support provided by the chinese for russia's war effort in ukraine. what is your message to the chinese about their participation in this war, about their support for russia and what it could mean for them and their economy? >> well, we have been very clear

from the outset with china and with other countries, that providing material support to russia in an evasion of these sanctions would provoke very serious consequences. not only have we been clear with the chinese government, we've also made it clear to chinese firms and to chinese banks that we would not tolerate trade deals that helped russia to evade sanctions. we will crack down and enforce our sanctions, and the consequences will be severe. >> secretary yellen, what can we do? what can the allied governments do to help the ukrainians right now over the next year? do we begin -- is it too early

to talk about reconstruction projects? at least the western half of the country. what's our best move now? >> let me make clear, the united states and the allies, our support for ukraine will be lasting and is unconditional. we stand with ukraine and want to support ukraine. of course, there's the immediate need for military equipment. we've responded positively to many of the requests that ukraine has made for advanced military equipment that should give them an edge. in addition to that, they need ongoing economic support. the war has been devastating for their economy. their economy contracted by almost a third last year.

they've diverted spending away from social programs and support to increase defense spending. and they have a serious budget deficit. the united states has been providing economic support to ukraine. we've already provided $13 billion in support, and there is an additional $10 billion we expect to provide over the next nine months. in addition, the allies, the european union, has provided substantial support to g7 countries. we stand behind ukraine economically. we've formed a partnership, a -- an organization where we will be able to coordinate individual countries that want to participate in reconstruction,

international financial institutions, other donors. at the moment, we're more focused on providing the reconstruction they need to get their economy back operating closer to its full potential. for example, helping them to rebuild their electrical system which russia has systematically attempted to destroy. that is the short-term focus. >> treasury secretary janet yellen, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we really appreciate it. coming up, the latest from east palestine, ohio, where federal investigators now say that toxic train derailment could have been prevented. how that revelation could impact potential lawsuits. "morning joe" will be right back. ere rheumatoid arthritis or active psoriatic arthritis

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national transportation safety board said the ohio train derailment and toxic chemical spill could have been prevented why the crew on board the norfolk southern train received an alert about an overheated wheel, bearing on the wheel, before dozens of cars left the tracks. the wheel bearing was 235 degrees above the ambient. investigators said it passed two other season sos and no alarms wept off. residents say they are still experiencing headaches and nausea. the derailment may have been killed 45,000 fish. the department of agricultural said they've not seen anything of concern in the area of livestock despite reports from residents. joining us now from ohio is

attorney jane conroy part of the team spearheading class action litigation and conducting independent air, water, surface and soil testing. thank you for being with us. wefb hearing since hearing the public confidence that the water and air is fine and everyone should return home that we would be skeptical based on other disasters in the past. tell us about the suit that you have filed on behalf of the residents there in ohio. >> sure. good morning. thank you. we filed immediately because we know that first of all, it was unclear what chemicals were even on that train and we were concerned that the correct information was not getting the residents of east palestine. that was first and foremost you can see behind me the work going

on to try to figure out what chemicals are in the water and the air and the soil. secondly we know that there's a reason why this accident happened and so part of the reason for the lawsuit on behalf of the residents is to figure out why this happened so it doesn't happen again. >> what is the specific negligence you are alleging on behalf of norfolk southern? >> it is pretty basic. it is putting profits over safety. were there enough hot box detectors on the tracks to determine whether that train was going to derail? is there enough of a crew? are the trains too long to stop in time? are they too dangerous going through towns like this when you don't have the right type of detectors on board the train? so all sorts of questions like

that. a lawsuit like this sheds light on that information because look. even today the trains are coming through, new tracks right over the contaminated soil through east palestine. it's a same hot boxes that are on the tracks so we need to shed light on what's happening. >> so, jane, let's stick with the topic for a bit. the idea of infrastructure in the united states apparently is way behind on improving rail beds all over the country. but 149 railroad cars. i have never heard of that number of cars being pulled through a village, a town, a city anywhere. is that going to be part of the negligence lawsuit? >> absolutely. we're going to look at that. when you add a lot of cars to a train like that, it takes a really long time to stop them.

not only that, with only two crew members and a trainee on the train, it takes forever to walk the line to inspect those cars to see if there's a problem. it's happening everywhere in the united states. there's nothing unusual about norfolk southern does it everywhere with trains that are that long. we have trains that long coming through east palestine today. >> all right. we will keep a close eye on this case. thank you. as of now the company norfolk southern has not commented on the litigation. we'll have a live report from moscow marking one year since the invasion of ukraine as western allies roll out new sanctions against russia. the lead investigator for the january 6 committee tells us what it was like to uncover what

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[ speaking foreign language ] one year ago president volodymyr zelenskyy stood defiantly with his cabinet in kyiv as russian forces attacked the ukrainian capital. ukraine has defied expectations and showed the world tremendous tenacity over the past year,

fighting back russian forces time after time. today there are no signs that europe's biggest land conflict since world war ii will end any time soon. we will be covering this somber anniversary throughout the morning. back here at home we are following the federal response to the train derailment in east palestine, ohio. transportation secretary pete buttigieg toured the city as investigators appear to pinpoint a possible cause for the crash. >> he certainly had challenges for donald trump, as well. >> yes, he did. >> glad he came here and if he's ready to stop the deregulation of dangerous trains like this one then yeah. we can work together. >> we will have more of what he had to say and when's in store for east palestine today. former president trump continues to treat the disaster like a tv show with statements

about him. >> he actually talked about his -- willie, he talked about his ratings. he said that tv ratings for the coverage while i was here, the place where the people are suffering, were massive. of course it wasn't covered on tv. i don't know what imaginary world he is living in this week. bizarre. more bizarre, bizarre statements from this guy. >> more bizarre and also at the scene and the site of a tragedy to go to the ratings and trump water and handing at the hats at mcdonald's. losing the grip a little bit saying that because it wasn't taken live. no ratings. since he brought it up there's no ratings for the appearance in ohio. >> again, so the guy goes there and handing out water, he's

handing out campaign hats for a community devastating and bitching and moaning the people, suffering so much. what the biden administration does. this is a branding exercise? that is the bizarreness of donald trump and then decides to lie about ratings. i went there and the ratings were high. >> for what? >> no ratings. nobody covered it. you know? >> we will have more on that and latest from a murder trial making international headlines. a man accused of killing his wife and son took the stand. we will have the testimony for you. it was absolutely gripping. >> willie, this is a thing. i was crashing on our ukraine special. i didn't see this yesterday. but it is just one of those stories that you figure out very quickly a lot of the country

just stopped for and this seemed to be it. >> absolutely. we haven't covered it very much on this show. yesterday because alex murdaugh took the stand and on the stand and this did -- you are right. broke through. for people that heard of it they were locking in driving around in the cars or watching msnbc to see the coverage. we'll do a deeper dive in a few minutes but he said i didn't kill my wife and son. i did lie to police. i was addicted to opioids. but he said, clearly, i did not kill my wife and son. we'll see how he holds up under cross-examination today. >> we'll talk to danny seeven

>> i was glued. i didn't watch it to be honest. my friends did. >> we will have much more coming. >> aren't you -- we have sam. >> that's exactly what i would have said if i was sam. >> i'm not going to do that. >> no. i will say i got pulled into it yesterday. >> you were watching it. you and the dogs. >> i was. really gripping and sad. but -- fascinating. we'll look into that and talk to legal experts about it. but first, today marks exactly one year since russia launched its unprovoked war on ukraine. on twitter this morning

ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy wrote, quote, february 24, millions of us made a choice. not a white flag. but the blue and yellow one. not fleeing but facing. resisting and fighting. it was a year of pain, sorrow, faith and unity. this year we remained invincible. we know that 2023 will be the year of our victory. the biden administration is announcing a new aid package for ukraine including several new unmanned aerial systems, high mobility artillery rocket systems and more ammunition. the white house is also imposing new economic sanctions today against more than 200 groups and individuals in russia and other parts of the world supporting moscow's war efforts.

>> janet yellen spoke behind closed doors. let the russians have it. let everybody it. anybody supporting the russians supporting the atrocities in ukraine. extraordinarily strong and striking coming from a secretary of treasury. a treasury secretary. it really -- strong. >> g7 leaders are set to meet on sanctions. >> gene robinson, we saw -- >> gene is here. >> we saw the -- at the beginning, we saw the tweet from last night. but man, that image that we bumped in on -- >> yeah. >> i guess on instagram first, that statement. we are here. we are not going anywhere. glory to our fighters. glory to ukraine. was so strong and followed up in

the lead-up to the war when everybody was talking about getting zelenskyy and wife and children out. he said i don't need a car. i need weapons. >> right. >> he was pitch perfect from the beginning and really framed this war. i must say just like churchill in 1940 when the rest of the world was waiting for britain to collapse, zelenskyy did the same thing. just with his will and a determined ukrainian people. >> he absolutely did, joe. you used that clip last night in the excellent special about one year of war in ukraine. an electrifying moment. at that time before he came out with that instagram video we had assumed that russia was just going to sweep in. they were going to take kyiv.

they would find and kill zelenskyy. perhaps his family. other government officials. that this would basically last a week or two and ukraine would be crushed. that, of course, did not happen. and not only did it not happen but zelenskyy came out defiant with his officials surrounding him and that green sort of fatigue t-shirt. the symbol, the uniform of the ukrainian army. he just -- it was electric moment. i think moments matter. that mattered a lot to the last year. to the way ukraine has been able to resist. of course people matter. individuals mat jer big sweeping trends in history matter but

individuals matter like churchill in world war ii. zelenskyy matters in the battle for ukraine. he has been just amazing and a portrait of leadership. >> he has. remember one year ago the question was could ukraine survive a few days of this. here we are. they have done better than survive. the empire state building is lit up in the colors of the ukrainian national flag. the united states pledging its assistance, financial aid, a new package on the anniversary. new sanctions against russia on the anniversary. president biden walking the streets of kyiv, making the speech in poland. it is clear to vladimir putin and china now that the west

isn't going anywhere and stands with ukraine. one year later. >> yeah. we'll have much more on this somber anniversary throughout the show this morning. we want to get news at home. national transportation safety board said the derailment could have been prevented. the crew on board the norfolk southern traun received an alert about an overheating wheel bearing before dozens of cars left the tracks. the wheel bearing was 235 degrees above the ambient temperature. investigators said the train passed two other sensors before and no alarms. the prelim nafr report was released the same day transportation secretary pete buttigieg visited. it was the first visit since the derailment three weeks ago.

he pledged the biden administration's ongoing support. >> that's why we have been here since the first hours as an administration and the interest both in what happened here in east palestine and in keeping the railroad safe doesn't go away with another hot news story comes into the headlines. we will be here day in, day out, year in, year out making the railroads safer. that is a promise and one i take very, very seriously. >> buttigieg also responded to criticism from former president trump who visited east palestine the previous day. he said trump's administration that deregulated railroad safety including suspending a requirement to be outfitted with faster brakes. >> one thing he could do is

express support for reversing the deregulation that happened on his watch. it was in his administration. so if he had nothing to do with it and they did it in his administration against his will maybe he could come out and say that he supports us moving in a different direction. we are not afraid to own our policies raising the bar on regulation. >> this is a problem for the republicans, sam. this is a problem for donald trump. the republicans who are attacking joe biden's response. they have been pushing one deregulation after another. and as pete buttigieg said even deregulations that seemed to line up that could have prevented this crash possibly and so the transportation secretary did exactly what he should have done saying, okay, well, so donald trump, you are

here. suddenly you're a born again believer in regulations? help us add regulations to these dangerous rail lines to keep the people of cities like east palestine safe. of course, neither trump nor the republicans will do anything about it because, sam, probably all about gestures. isn't it? >> yeah. i don't want to be overly cynical but i think you are right. we have been looking into this at politico for weeks now. the railroad industry is a behemoth in washington. been very good at getting deregulation through in the trump era. we were the first to report of the safety deregulations that happened. this is not the first train derailment of this magnitude. it does happen somewhat regularly. we could not locate an instance

in which there was a public 0pining for elaine chao to go to the scene of a derailment. not to say that pete buttigieg shouldn't have gone to east palestine earlier. what it does say is there's opportunism shockingly happening in this moment. the derailment was in a section that jd vance said was quote our people. he meant sort of white working class people that felt abandoned because manufacturing jobs were shipped overseas. trump sensed a chance to show empathy and stick it to the biden administration by being there in the flesh when pete buttigieg was not and joe biden was overseas in ukraine. there's opportunism happening

here and can overplay the hand. the democrats suffer from losing a branch of congress because when they could do when congress comes back in session if they had control of the house to putt up a bill to enhance regulations on the rail industry. >> right. >> but they can't do that in the house. they could potentially in the senate but the senate is more complicated. that's a losses you see when you lose control of the house. >> willie, the thing is just to show how hypocritical donald trump and the republicans are, they should immediately -- joe biden should propose a bill to reverse every one of donald trump's deregulations that made train safety more tenuous. they could do that. and just to show the hypocrisy. watch how quickly that bill is

killed in the republican house. >> yeah. >> democratic senate could push to try to pass it. see how many kill it. making it more dangerous. so that's -- number two, yeah, we shouldn't blame elaine chao for not going to every train derailment in the trump administration. no democrat called for it. of course republicans and the stooges on trump media are calling for it because, again, they're a party of gestures. they want to deregular a little. make accidents like more likely to happen. and then they want to go in and gesture and do absolutely nothing about it. keeping the people of east

palestine and the country in more perilous position. >> there were train tragedies in the trump years and the bl and bush and clinton years and the transportation secretary did not go with fatalities where elaine chao didn't go and no one called for her to go in those cases. holding the contrast they think they have a political point to score here by saying joe biden was in kyiv. they raise money off that. also there are senators, republican senators who sitting in the senate right now wrote a letter to the railroad association calling for automated braking system. it goes beyond donald trump, to republican senators right now to call for the deregulation. donald trump is calling the stop as you might imagine in east

palestine a success. he posted that the visit on wednesday boosted ratings on social media and tv. he said the trip meant a lot to residents and quote raised the awareness to combat the incompetence of the biden administration in his words. i guess no surprise but the thing that's exhausted many republicans who are looking for an alternative in the 2024 election. >> yeah. just silliness. it is just lunacy. the reason why nobody covered this lie because why would you? by the way, you did remove some regulations that might have prevented or ameliorated this crash. i think there's work to do now for congress and the biden administration now and really

looking at railroads and railroad deregulation and the fact that the railroad companies, only seven big -- freight rail companies in the country and at least six are running much, much longer trains with fewer people so what could go wrong? what could go wrong is longer trains are heavier. this was a 151-car train and cars filled with toxic materials. if you have a problem, a derailment, the longer, heavier trains makes it that much more vie leapt and the force is multiplied. so the safety procedures and methods and equipment has to be upgraded to keep track with the way railroading is these days and it hasn't been. it's moved the wrong direction. that's a potential problem.

this is a huge disaster. we will have more unless we get to work. >> all right. >> let's hope donald trump when he is finished looking at his imaginary ratings and passing out trump water bottles and campaign hats, let's hope he goes on truth social and says that he wants to reverse the damage he's caused to railroad safety and all of the deregulation that he pushed through that he signed that republicans pushed through that many of them still support. he's now going to side with president biden and side with pete buttigieg and side with democrats in making sure that this sort of incident doesn't happen again. >> buttigieg handled that well and shined a light on exactly what you just said. for some republicans they might be like, thanks a lot, donald

trump, for shining a light on where we fell shortcoming to railroad safety. >> it's one cell phone after another after another cell phone. it is even, you know, kevin mccarthy's extraordinarily reckless decision to release all the tape from january the 6th. all that's going to do, regardless of who you release it to, it is going to turn america's attention, kevin, back to when donald trump helped start a riot to try to overturn an election, to try to overturn american democracy and his people, his people almost killed you and almost killed other members of the house and the snart. do you know how i know that? because you called him on january the 6th screaming and

when he tried to blame it on antifa you swore at him hysterically saying these are your people. call it off, donald. and then -- kevin -- why am i talking about this? he is releasing the tapes. that's right. you went on the floor, kevin. you went on the floor and you rightly condemned donald trump. i was so proud of you. timely showing some backbone and some spine. finally putting the safety of those that you work with ahead of your own craven political ambitions. and then you backed down. you backed down and you grovelled and you went down and you shined his shoes and you got a picture taken and you once again showed what a weak, weak

human being you are. why are we bringing this up, kevin? we are bringing this up because you keep bringing it up. and this is just yet another self own by republicans. they can't -- i'm exhausted! i wish reverend al were here. i could fall to the ground. throw the robe on me. start talking to republicans again. how you need to stop being so stupid to start winning elections again to once again have two strong parties in america. that's not going to happen so long as you're consumed with the stupid, the idiotic. well, and the unpatriotic. >> yeah. >> it is a cell phone just like trump doing what he did in east palestine is a cell phone.

just like everything they do is a cell phone. coming up, two of the next guests have decades of experience at the highest levels of the military. joe sat down with barry mccaffrey and james stavridos to break down the state of the war in ukraine. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." somewhere, anywhere. ♪ ♪ a beach house, a treehouse, ♪ ♪ honestly i don't care ♪ find the perfect vacation rental for you booking.com, booking. yeah. people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. ♪ customize and save. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ next on behind the series... let me tell you about the greatest roster ever assembled.

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welcome back. now to my conversation with leading experts on the military. barry mccaffrey and james stravidas. both covered the war in ukraine since the beginning. what have we learned over the past year? >> i think we have been astonished how incompetent and

corrupt the russian forces were. they were reported to be great at cyber warfare, deception, massing artillery forces. we have ended up with putin in a strategic disaster with a couple hundred thousand killed and wounded and no way out. i think the other thing we have learned is that leadership pays off, both political and military, in the ukraine. zelenskyy is a modern-day church chill and a bunch of civilians turned into commanders and fought the russian army to a stand still so it's been a strategic shock i think from both dimensions. >> and, admiral, obviously with your knowledge of nato, it is also -- had to be a shock on the other side how a nato alliance

that was seen by too many at a remnant of the cold war may be stronger than ever. >> indeed. let's not forget soon to be added to the team sweden and finland. two superb turnkey militaries. they deployed understood my command to afghanistan. i know the qualities of the swedes and the fins. that distant sound you hear is vladimir putin's head exploding in frustration that adding the flank of swedes and finns and the cherry on the sundae of how well this alliance has held together. i give a lot of credit to the president and his team who have done an enormous amount of work making sure that we stand together against this rotten regime in moscow.

>> admiral, what should the president do? what should nato members do if turkey tries to continue to stand in the way of finland and sweden becoming members? >> i don't think erdogan will push it to the absolute brink but what we ought to be doing now is very quietly, privately putting pressure on turkey. i have seen this movie before in the alliance. we will not drive it to the brink. we do need to continue to try to pull turkey toward the west. they're an important country. second largest army in the alliance. in a critical position. it would be an epic geopolitical mistake to let turkey drift away from nato. >> general, tell me how important is it that ukraine

gets tanks as quickly as possible and then gets f-16s. >> look. from the start, secretary lloyd austin, chairman mark milley, the president, his national security team have been really superb at bringing together an enormous, pushing $40 billion plus, package of defense technology and concerned particularly the white house about not escalating the conflict, not ending up a nato involved in a shooting war and not urging putin down a direction of nuclear tactical weapon use in ukraine. given that i think they have done a good job why the 40-plus contact nations came together. nato came together. the g7 so they got an a-plus. however, wars are won and lost at battalion level.

not brill i can't want generals but fighting troops on the front line. and ukraine's in a perilous situation. this is a brutal war. may have suffered 100,000 casualties. they need two armored divisions by late spring or the russians may start to overwhelm them with man power so i think we have to stop metering out support. they need deep strike support, tanks, lethal drones, better air defense and quick. >> admiral, do you agree? >> i do. i will add one thing to the shopping list. i think we should be providing them front line capable tactical aircraft. m-19s. poland indicated a willingness

to do this. i would add f-16s. some say it takes a long time to train them to fly it. look, joe. we are not setting out to train you an f-16. we are training combat experienced pilots who have been flying the migs. i think they they can learn to fly an f-16 pretty damn quickly when they will be defending the families. i would add to the excellent list tactical aircraft. >> i would ask you both to put in historical perspective what joe biden, what his national security team, what the nato alliance has done over the past year. we look back to '47 through '49 and what harry truman did and wasn't appreciated at the time. are we going to look back at this past year and see a major

shift in not just u.s. capabilities and nato capabilities but also possibility how the president's leadership and nato's leadership led to a decline of russia that may not be reversal for quite sometime? general? >> well, i think we ought to recognize that the biden administration -- i have been critical in some aspects but dealing with taiwan and a middle east -- they have been sober minded, careful. they're experienced. secretary blinken done this his entire life and understands international diplomacy. lloyd austin understands the global defense challenges. so they have done a really

excellent job. but, joe, i would assert the real deciding factor in the outcome in europe of our security concerns will be decided in the u.s. congress. can biden keep a bipartisan focus on supporting ukraine and a strong armed forces and diplomacy or will the remnants of the maga crowd drag us back to an america first and walk away from the allies? that's the question i'm worried about. not what he's done lately but where is this going and particularly beyond 2024. >> and, admiral, let me ask you about the biden administration and the miscalculation of vladimir putin and others.

the general disagreed with the biden administration had done i would guess we would all likely agree that afghanistan could have been handled better. as i said at the time anybody that's paid attention to biden since 2009 that was coming. i'm wondering whether vladimir putin miscalculated based upon a decision that biden made that was based solely on his contempt for leadership in afghanistan since 2001. >> putin has miscalculated in too many ways to count. but i would put at the top of the list his underestimation of president biden. you asked about the historical piece of this. we have seen in movie before just under a century ago and it would be the 1930s with a crowd

of isolationists in the united states trying to pull us back from the league of nations, pulled us out of europe. build huge tariffs and trade barriers. we cracked the global economy and you can drop a plumb line to the second world war. the echos i see is the biden administration i think trying and succeeding to get ahead of that isolationism. making the case for engagement. i think they'll succeed in this vastly important mission in ukraine. >> all right. barry and james, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. >> my conversation. coming up, live to moscow for the latest on how russia is making the one-year anniversary of the failed invasion.

nbc's keir simmons joins the conversation on "morning joe."

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the justice department has asked a federal judge to compel former vice president mike pence to testify as part of the special counsel investigation into january 6th and efforts to overturn the 2020 election. according to "new york times," federal prosecutors asked the judge to set aside claims of executive privilege that pence might raise to avoid answering questions. we are learning about what went on behind the scenes of the house select committee that investigating the january 6 attack on the house.

timothy haffey joins us now. thank you very much for joining us. give us the thoughts on how you felt with the different revelations emerged. >> about mike pence? completely predictable. that the special counsel would want to speak to him. i think jack smith and the team are trying to get information from every source before they make the decision of an indictment of a former president. mike pence witnessed one at the center of this. would have very direct information and understandably stepping to mike pence to the president's children. he is going to turn over every rock or try to before a final decision is made. >> we had a guest on a couple weeks ago that dismissed the january 6 committee. says, political. what do you say to people who say such a thing?

>> it was an attack on the united states capitol. not a politically motivated investigation. it was a bipartisan investigation. we had republican members. didn't have a majority and a minority. all of our witnesses literally every person with material information was someone in the trump administration, the trump campaign. >> underline that again for me. most of these committees that we see you will have democrats bring on liberals. republicans bring on conservatives. i know what that person will say. that person. underline again the fact that every single person that delivered damning testimony on what donald trump did january the 6th was a trumper, defended him through two impeachments,

through the horrific things he said over four years, defended him over caged children, defended him time and time again. and yet on january the 6th they woke up and the people that you called, they were all trumpers. >> exactly. the folks in the room where it happened were all very close to the former president and ironic that people call it a politically motivated investigation when the star witnesses were cipollone and jared kushner and ivanka trump. they did the right thing when it counted. >> timothy, good morning. an argument trump supporters have said is that this was spontaneous and got out of hand and a thing, headline from the january 6 select committee and

the investigation you did was the premedication, the intent which gets at the heart of what the special counsel will have to prove. is there any doubt that former president trump had intent to commit the crimes that you recommended to the doj? >> no, not all a. that is the basis of the criminal referral. the evidence of specific intent to disrupt the joint session. the statute says obstruct an official proceeding. we have am l evidence that the president and others had the specific intent. the day of january 6 was the desperate part of a multi-part plan to prevent the transfer of power. all the way through, informs the intent. so no. absolutely no doubt. we wouldn't have made a criminal

referral had there been any question about that intent issue. >> another desperate argument is that the media or you on the committee have blown january 6th out of proportion and it was a few people a broke into the capitol. we have people smashing the heads into reinvolving doors. calling for the hanging of mike pence. seeking out nancy pelosi. what surprised you the most? you talked to so many witnesses. at the end of the day were you stunned by how close we came to a more terrible day than it was? >> yes. to be frank. absolutely. look. i grew up believing that democracy is durable, that our institutions hold. and we came close here to that not being accurate. right? democracy has to be earned

repeatedly. it requires good people doing the right thing. thankfully that happened here but it was tenuous. i didn't fully appreciate how tenuous and how close this plan came to success until i was immersed for 18 months in what happened before and on january 6. how the resistance to vladimir putin is playing out on the streets from paris to berlin. joe sits down with the president out european commission next on "morning joe." h, sorry son, prices are crazy, [son deflates] awh, use priceline. they have package deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it! ♪go to your happy price♪ ♪priceline♪ i'm a screen addicted tween. and, if i'm not posting on social media, i don't feel seen. oh my god mom, you gotta look... nope. keeping my eyes on the road is paying off with drivewise. bo-ring. get drivewise from allstate and save for avoiding mayhem like me. your shipping manager left to “find themself.”

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♪♪ welcome back. ukraine isn't alone in pushing back on vladimir putin's aggression. the european commission is standing tall against tyranny. joe sat down with that group's leader ursula von der leyen to talk about that. >> let me ask you, first of all,

what has been the impact of the last year on the eu and european unity? >> well, i think we've seen that putin has done three massive strategic mistakes. he's done many mistakes, but these were exceptional. first of all, he has completely miscalculated the bravery and courage of the ukrainian people. he has also completely miscalculated the unity and determination of the resolve of the european union. and the third point was that he tried to blackmail us with energy. we were overdependent on russian fossil fuels before the war started. he tried to blackmail us with energy. he completely miscalculated that we would stand together, diversify away from the russian fossil fuels and invest massively in renewables so that today we are independent of russian fossil fuels. this year brought along an

increased unity, determination and resolve of the european union. >> i've heard some skepticism among european leaders privately of the ability of ukraine to ever become an eu member because of concerns of ongoing corruption in parts of the economy and the society. what do you say to those skeptics about the need, the importance of ukraine eventually becoming a member of the eu? >> it is amazing, it is heartwarming to see the deep wish and the longing of ukraine to become a member of the european union. i'm personally deeply impressed by the willingness to undergo deep reforms, for example, to fight corruption in ukraine in order to progress in this path towards europe. and indeed if it wouldn't have

been for ukraine's willingness really to reform, they wouldn't be today a candidate country to the accession to the european union. it is impressive to see how fast they deliver. the accession process is a merits based process, so it's not a rigid one. but the better you perform, the better you reform, the sooner the access to the european union. it depends on the progress in ukraine itself. ukraine as i see it today is absolutely willing to fight corruption, to put in the rule of law, to abide to all the necessary and to follow all the necessary reforms. so it's up to them to deliver. >> madam president, thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. >> that was joe's conversation with ursula von der leyen, president of the european commission. coming up, accused murder alex murdaugh takes the stand in one of the country's most closely watched criminal trials. closely watched criminal trials.

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look at that shot of a cloudy, rainy los angeles for you this morning. it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast on this friday, february 24th. we begin the fourth hour of "morning joe" with this murder trial for alex murdaugh. this morning, the prosecution will continue cross examiing the disbarred attorney accused of killing his wife and 22-year-old son almost two years ago. murdaugh took the stand yesterday in his own defense, denying that he was responsible for their deaths, but also admitting to lying to investigators about when he last saw them alive. prosecutors believe murdaugh murdered his wife and son because he was about to be exposed for stealing nearly $9 million from his law partners and clients in the wake of the

2018 financial crisis. during his testimony, murdaugh admitted to those financial crimes and to lying to police about where he was at the time of the murders, saying his addiction to opioids clouded his thinking and created a distrust of police. but he said he did not kill his wife and son, referring to them as mags and paul-paul through his testimony. >> most of all, i'm sorry to mags and paul-paul. i would never intentionally do anything to hurt either one of them. ever. as my addiction evolved over time, i would get in these situations or circumstances

where i would get paranoid, i wasn't thinking clearly, i don't think i was capable of reason, and i lied about being down there. and i'm so sorry that i did. >> do you have any independent recollection of a time where you sat down and looked that person in the eye and you were lying to them and convincing them that everything was okay while you stole their money? do you remember even one of them? >> i'm sure i do. i remember stealing from people, i remember lying to people and i remember misleading people. >> again, murdaugh is expected to take the witness stand later this hour. we'll take you live into the courtroom and bring you expert analysis on this case. let's start off this hour with a momentous and somber anniversary. >> the nation of ukraine

observing a moment of silence this morning, marking one year today of war since russia's invasion. richard engel has more from the southern part of the country. >> reporter: ukrainians this morning observed a moment of silence for a war they were widely expected to lose, but instead are winning, for now. president zelenskyy said the ukrainian people have proven invincible after a year of pain, sorrow, faith and unity. to mark the somber anniversary, france illuminated the eiffel tower in the colors of the ukrainian flag. when russian forces first advanced on ukraine a year ago today, many families rushed to escape. like all wars, it's been especially hard for children. half of all ukrainian kids have been displaced from their homes,

millions taken out of the country, becoming refugees in places they don't know. for the children who stayed in ukraine, their homes have changed too. some sleep in subway stations, where it's safer from the attacks above. occasionally, there's entertainment, but celebrations here are rare. more common are long hours in basements with little or no power, no internet and little time to run and play outdoors. schools have been destroyed, just like most everything else. children who still go to school do it in hiding. we were allowed into this school on the condition we didn't show it from the outside. the teacher was afraid russian trooped would bomb it if they knew where it was. darya is 9. last night there was shelling very close to our house, she says. i was in bed and very scared. when you hear the shooting and explosions, what do you do?

do you cover your ears? do you think about something else? i close my ears and lay in bed like this, she says. i close my eyes and go under the blanket to protect myself in case there's shrapnel. sometimes i go under the bed. the children love school. it's an oasis from the war. who here wants this war to end very soon? yeah, i thought so. both hands up. after school, the children head home for lunch and to go back into hiding. >> richard engel reporting from ukraine. tonight, richard's special report airs at 10:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. it also will be available for streaming on peacock. nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons joins us from moscow. we've looked at ukraine today on this one-year anniversary,

obviously defiance and suffering have marked the last year in that country. what is it like to be in russia today on the one-year anniversary, a country that has lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers, suffering under sanctions and isolated from the rest of the world because of its invasion of ukraine a year ago? >> reporter: in ukraine there's defiance. here in russia, there's silence. president putin isn't talking about anything about the conflict during this day of anniversary. obviously he made his speech earlier in the week and then he appeared at that rally with a packed stadium of russians waving russian flags. so there is a sense of defiance here in the sense that i think if you get russians to talk to you, they know this isn't going the way that president putin wanted it to go, but many of them are prepared to double down

with him for now. on the other hand, there are many russians asking real questions, if not questioning president putin's leadership directly, including people close to the russian leader. so we talked many years about the divided societies that we live in these days. this is a divided society. when war happens, it impacts not just the place where the war is happening, but all the countries involved. that is certainly true for russia. >> sanctions, a new batch of them announced today by the united states on the one-year anniversary. but you've got exclusive new reporting on just how russia seems to be able to evade some of these international sanctions. >> reporter: that's right. more than 11,000 different sanctions, and yet russia's economy appears to be surviving. the imf is predicting that this year it will actually expand,

albeit by just .3%. so we've had so much rhetoric from the west, from the u.s. about sanctions. we wanted to go and find out really what's happening, really happening on the border. so we traveled to neighboring georgia to investigate. if you want to know how the russian economy is surviving amid punishing western sanctions, you might some here. we're just across the border in georgia and it's lined with trucks. president putin's supply line. you're going from russia to turkey to moscow? he's carrying printer ink, he says. satellite images show this mountain pass becoming much busier. that's not surprising. at the outset of the war, russia dropped most import restrictions

on things like cars. the russian border is that way, but they have closed the road because of avalanche risk. business has stopped, but only temporarily. then hidden in the snow, a stunning discovery. two brand new american ram pickups. it was never driven, he says. still got the protection on the dashboard. they're brand new. where are they going? to moscow, he tells me. the men tell us they've sold both vehicles for around $170,000 each. they say they are moving cars every week. does it matter there's a war on? where is that war, he asks? it doesn't matter for us. we obtained one of the vehicle id numbers and asked the manufacture. they tell us it was legally sold to a private customer by an authorized distributor in abu dhabi.

they cannot prevent the company from reselling it and the company complies with all international sanctions. satellite images also show lines of trucks on the road to russia from china. president putin and china's top diplomat meeting, pledging to strengthen ties. back in georgia, the road reopens and we pass a construction site where china is helping build a new tunnel through the mountain. the half billion dollar project was started before the invasion, but the plan will be more trade with russia. clearly not every country wants this to be the end of the road for moscow. so it isn't only china that is supporting russia. just look at that list of countries that abstained at the u.n. overnight for the u.n. vote. there are many countries that are, to put it mildly, sitting on the fence.

georgia, the neighboring country, is really very much pro u.s. for very good reasons. and yet we went there and saw this trade taking place. i think if you want to understand some of the international picture in relation to this conflict, just look at how the trade is playing out and where the train is coming from that is continuing to support russia. never mind the question of potentially lethal weapons being sold to this country. >> such a fascinating report, keir. significantly, chinese diplomats in moscow this week where you are in solidarity with vladimir putin. nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons from moscow, thanks so much. >> joining us now, former white house communications director under president obama jennifer palmieri. she is cohost of showtime's "the circus." the new episode features reporting from warsaw amid

president biden's trip earlier this week. >> jen, thanks for being with us. one of the things pundits love to say that always gets it wrong is that americans don't care about foreign policy. maybe they don't care about the specifics, but ask jimmy carter if americans care about foreign policy or ronald reagan, bill clinton early on. joe biden's approval ratings dropped below 50% for the first time after afghanistan, never recovered. they're going back up now. i look back at this past week and i can't help but think that 30 years from now we're going to be hearing the words one year later kyiv stands, one year later ukraine stands, one year later democracy stands. talk about his remarkable trip

to ukraine. >> i mean, it's historic and inspiring and remarkable. i think there's so much in the last five years that we feel like we've been living history. but to see what happened this past week, the nerve to go to kyiv, what that says about russia's failure, what that communicates about u.s. leadership, biden's leadership and the ability to rally the free world to our side is remarkable. our episode this week is called the year of living dangerously. it's partly looking back about what happened in ukraine and the danger that posed obviously to their country and also to ours, the risk to the president, but then looking ahead in the coming year where the war is likely to intensify and biden is running for reelection. they have done a remarkable job this week.

it's not just the president in kyiv, not just the great speech, but you have seen tony blinken and jake sullivan getting the word out. i feel like it would be akin to fdr trying to get the u.s. bought into world war ii pre pearl harbor. the administration understands what's at stake here if russia does succeed. you all showed a poll early this morning. 50% of america thinks we should stay in and help ukraine until the end. but going forward, there's a lot at risk. as you noted with afghanistan, little upside when things go well in foreign policy, but a lot of downside if things go awry. >> jen talks about the nerve to go to ukraine on the political side with so many people talking

about president joe biden's age, that ten-hour train ride, that risky walk through the streets of kyiv, i mean, it really did send a number of messages not just to american voters, but to the world that this president stands strong against tyranny and stands strong, literally physically doing well. >> this is a remarkable image for vladimir putin to see. one year later, putin is still not there, but the american president is. we felt very fortunate to have an american president that would have the nerve to do this, to go into a war zone and very fortunate to see republicans the next day going in as well, talking about the need to

actually supply more weapons, to supply f-16s. it stands in marked contrast with the republicans that are the leading contenders for president. you have donald trump, who is going to run like some 1960s peacenik, an isolationist straight out of the, you know, lindbergh school, sort of a neville chamberlain for our time. then you have ron desantis, who even conservatives are just scratching their heads wondering. it really was a jerry ford moment, who said in the '76 debate with jimmy carter that russia didn't have any influence over poland. for this sort of brick tamblin figure to tell fox and friends

that russia didn't pose a threat to any of its neighbors is just insane. it showed something even worse, that he was winging it when talking about international affairs. >> there are some relatively high profile members of the republican party they have been trying to get more traction on ukraine, that have been trying to say that we should not continue to fund ukraine, that this is not america's war. it's been remarkable to me how little traction that has ultimately gotten. when i attend political rallies when candidates bring this up, the crowd does not react. the crowd has not bought into this. desantis, you can see him wandering about trying to find a play where he can live where he cannot be for what joe biden wants to do. he doesn't do it very articulately, well or

convincingly. you think, wow, i've been on politics a long time, but maybe on this one thing republican leaders could be on the side of democracy, be on the side of the administration. go after the president on something else. it's not just the right thing to do. i just don't even think their attacks are working. >> they're not. >> we've said many times here the caucus that's against ukraine, that's proposing this legislation to just cut ties basically, it's 11 people in the house. it's all the insurrectionists from the house of representatives. you have mitch mcconnell and mike mccall and other republicans saying not only are we with ukraine, we want more and faster aid to get there. your assessment about the state of president joe biden and his presidency right now?

he's had highest approval ratings since a year ago. he led very well on the world stage this week. where do you see him now as he's making this decision about whether to run again? where is he right now in his presidency? >> i think he will run again. i think for those who continue to doubt him, joe biden is thinking what more do i need to show you people. democrats like to worry and fret and worry about his age. that's a question that can't ever go away, obviously. it will always be present. but i think after the legislative wins, the bipartisan legislative wins, the great midterms, historic midterms, the very strong state of the union speech, the economy still struggling but getting better, this remarkable trip to kyiv and

to poland, the administration continuing to rally the world and the american public to their side in this fight, you know, he has to feel great and the white house has to feel great about where they are. it's been a tough haul, but they and he have done everything they can in their power so smartly, very experienced both in the staff and the president to get him to this place where if the economy continues to do well, as they expect it will, you will ultimately see a payoff. there's just no way to look at the last six months and not say joe biden is ready for the reelection, that joe biden is ready to run and to win. >> jen palmieri, thank you so much for coming on. we'll be watching the new season

of showtime's "the circus" premiering this sunday at 8:00 p.m. coming up, a conversation with the nation's highest ranking military officer. joe sat down with the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, general mark milley to discuss the war in ukraine and more. that discussion is straight ahead. before we go to break, willie, what do you have planned for "sunday today"? >> i don't have mark milley. i'll do my best. i have academy award nominee brendan fraser. he invited me over to his house outside new york city. we built a fire and sat and talked for a long time. what a fascinating guy, what a fascinating career, big blockbuster star in the '90s, then stepped out of the lime lite for a decade or so. my conversation with brendan

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♪♪ as the fighting continues in europe and grinds to a war of attrition, the growing concerns about ukraine's rapidly decreasing stock of ammunition. i spoke with the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, general mark milley, about where he sees the war going in the next year. >> what have we learned over the past year? >> one is the intelligence collection and analysis, i think, by the united states is very good leading into this. another key lesson learned, i think, is air superiority. the russians have never, even to this day, achieved air superiority. >> how could that be? >> i could tell you the air defense system of ukraine has proven remarkable resilient and

effective. that has denied the russians tactical air space up to 15, 20, 30,000 feet. that has denied the russians air superiority. that has given freedom for the ukrainians to move around on the ground and seize the ammunition. the russian army comes out of the soviet models and the ukrainian army came out of the soviet models, which was a top down centralized command and control system that had very little freedom of action at the tactical level. war is a fluid, dynamic, unpredictable situation and it gets very dynamic at the tactical level. you've got to let subordinates call the plays at the moment in time. that meant when the russians invaded a year ago, that was a very scripted operation that they had. it went off script because of the bravery, the resilience,

toughness and tactical skills of the ukrainian force and their decision making. the ukrainian decision making was much more agile, flexible and decentralized. >> you've said before that the russians have already lost the war. what did you mean? >> their initial political objective was to seize most if not all of ukraine and collapse the government. that failed strategically. operationally they tried to seize the capital, donbas and various other parts of the country and that failed. they've been a free and independent country since 1991. the vast majority of the population knows nothing but freedom and they don't want to be occupied. it was obvious that the ukrainians would fight, even with sticks and stones or just

rifles, they were going to fight and not give up. the russian army has been mauled, but the russian air force has not. >> why have that held back? >> because of the ukrainian air defenses. they get shot down. because the ukrainian air defense system has been very effective and the russian aircraft have been shot down in significant numbers, the russian air foce has not entered the fray in terms of close air support because it's too high risk for them to do that. the focus right now needs to be air defense artillery and artillery, just basic artillery for this battle that's unfolding in ukraine. they also need tanks and weapons systems to fight a conventional ground war, which is what they're doing. >> how do we move toward an end game? >> that's up for the ukrainians

to decide. what is acceptable to ukraine, whatever that answer is going to be. >> is it impossible to get every russian troop out of their country and crimea? >> i don't think it's militarily possible for the russians to achieve their initial political objectives by military means. i think it will be very, very difficult for the ukrainians to achieve their stated political objective, which is for every single russian to leave every single inch of ukrainian territory. i think that's a very high bar and from a military standpoint it would be very difficult to achieve. what is possible is significant liberation of ukrainian territory and maybe if we're lucky, touch wood, the diplomats

will enter the fray and get to the negotiating table at some point. i think at the end of the day president biden, president zelenskyy, every european leader has said the same thing, which is this war will end at the negotiating table and that's probably right. >> that was my conversation with general mark milley. coming up, we'll go live to the courthouse in south carolina ahead of a second day of testimony from alex murdaugh in his murder trial. plus, an update on some intense weather out west. and we're gearing up for the forbes 30/50 summit in abu dhabi, which is less than two weeks away. >> it's an incredible line-u of women in one place at one time. an extraordinary event for international women's day. >> it's becoming the global

headquarters of international women's day. we will mark it with an all star panel of guest speakers, hillary clinton, gloria steinem, jessica alba, misty copeland, billie jean king, the first lady of ukraine. lady of ukraine.

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the stand. we expect we're going to hit the hard questions from prosecutors today. yesterday they asked a lot of questions about the financial crimes about him lying to folks and sort of using his privilege to try to be above the law. they didn't get into the specifics of the night of the murder and the evidence surrounding it. we will say the defense answer add lot of those questions on direct examination, sort of taking the wind out of the sails of prosecutors, but they've had a night to prepare for this cross examination. we do expect the most bruising part of the testimony to be yet to come. >> it was a gripping day yesterday. day two starts right now. let's listen in. >> yeah, i would agree that in 2019 i've stole more money than any other year. >> would you agree with me that

from 2015 on, your legitimate income, while still very strong, was diminishing, as a general matter? >> well, i think whatever my income is speaks for itself, but as a general rule, a plaintiffs lawyer, doing what we do, income ebbs and flows. you have some really good years, you have some really lean years. i think i had some good years. maybe not, you know, 4 and $5 million years, but i think i had some 2 and $3 million years in there. my case load was such that one of the things i was working on that monday was one of the biggest cases i've ever been involved in. >> you're talking about the dominion case, right? >> yes, sir. i think it was cyclical.

without looking at the record specifically, i don't necessarily agree with that. >> okay. so you don't remember then? >> no. i do remember. i don't think i agree with that. again, those records will speak for themselves. >> okay. all right. so would you agree with me that in 2014, your reported income was over a million dollars? >> objection, relevance. >> the objection is overruled. >> reported income like tax-wise? >> yeah. >> i assume you have a document that says that. if you're reading that from a document, i don't dispute it. >> i'm happy to show you. >> i trust you. >> i appreciate that. in 2015, would you agree that your reported income was over $2 million? >> again, i don't dispute that. >> 2016, reported income

$900,000? >> okay. >> 2017, reported income $218,000? >> okay. >> 2018, $749,000 roughly? >> okay. >> and 2019 reported income of $655,000? >> okay. to me, that demonstrates exactly what i'm talking about, how it goes up and down. >> would you agree with me during those periods of time where you were making that kind of money, you continued to steal and your stealing increased in those years, as a general matter? >> absolutely. i don't dispute and have never disputed since i was confronted on labor day weekend that i took money from my clients. >> we've gone through that. >> well, but you keep asking me.

>> if your income -- [indiscernible] >> finish your answer. >> the point is, i have never since being confronted that day my brother and my partner came to talk to me that i have stolen money that did not belong to me, that i misled people to do it, people that i cared about, still care about, a lot of them that i love and still love and i misled them to do it and i was wrong. i have never disputed that from day one. >> we've been through that. all i'm trying to establish right now is as we move toward june of 2021, what your financial condition was like, okay? i agree you've testified to that

multiple times. during the time that your income was what we just went through and your stealing was increasing, were you also borrowing significant amounts of money? >> yes. i'd always borrowed significant amounts of money. yes, sir, i agree with that. >> as we moved to june of 2021, did you have a million dollar line of credit with the bank that was pretty much maxed out, yes or no? >> so in june of 2021? >> sure. >> yes. >> did you also have a $600,000 line of credit that was pretty much maxed out around that time? >> i did. >> did you also over the years repeatedly borrow six figures from your law partners?

>> well, i borrowed money from a law partner. >> which one? >> john. >> and it was a fairly common occurrence over the years. it happened multiple times, would you agree with that? >> i would agree with that. >> and you sometimes used the stolen money to pay that back? >> i won't dispute that. i don't know that's the case. i know what i saw mr. gurney testify to in using that particular accounting method. i see that. so i don't dispute that. >> all right. would you agree that you also, when you needed money, occasionally borrowed as much as five and six figures from your father, mr. randolph? >> i did.

>> would you also agree that over the years particularly as we move toward june of 2021, you would use stolen money to pay that back? >> i don't dispute that if that's what the records show. >> all right. you just mentioned the testimony of the banker and all that. you would agree with me as we moved toward 2021, at least in liquid funds, you were running out of money? >> liquid as in on hand. >> you're a lawyer. you know what liquid means. >> i don't know what you mean by liquid. >> money you could ready access to pay your ever increasing debts? >> i do not agree with that and i'll tell you why. are we talking about june? >> i'm talking about as we move to june? >> but what time period? >> let's talk about january to

june. >> january to june, you know, i could borrow money from my father, i could borrow money from johnny parker, i could get to the bank and borrow money. i had substantial equity in the house. >> which was in maggie's name, correct? >> it was in maggie and my name. that definitely was in both of your names. moselle was in maggie's name. there was substantial equity in that that could have been borrowed against. so under the terms as you defined liquid assets right now, money that i would have access to, i disagree with for those reasons that i just said. >> can we at least agree that generally the way the compensation structure of

legitimate money you earned in your law firm, the vast majority of compensation does not come but in one lump sum in december? >> right. we get a salary. i believe our salary was $125,000 and then the income that was earned would be paid in the form of a bonus at the year end. >> and then would you agree with me that that is why you stole the ferris fees in march of 2021, because you were in desperate need of funds and you could not wait until december to access those funds? >> i think there's probably a lot of reasons why i stole those funds, but i don't dispute that's one of the reasons. >> would you agree with me that the $792,000 that you stole of those ferris funds, that you exhausted those within about two

months? >> i don't know the time period, but i know that i exhausted them. >> again, i'm trying to get through this quickly, because there's a lot more to talk about, obviously. but we went through a number of questions yesterday about the various clients that you stole from, correct? do you remember that, the back and forth we had yesterday? do you remember all that? >> sure i do. >> i'm going to try to shortchange this, but i think it's important that we at least say the names of the people that were involved. let's just do this -- >> to the comment, your honor, inappropriate. >> i'll rephrase, your honor. the clients that we're talking about, these are all real

people, yes or no? >> they're all real people. they're all good people. >> okay. >> they're all people that i care about, that i cared about then. and a lot of them are people that i love. >> okay. >> and i did wrong by them. >> yes, you hurt the people that you love, i know. >> object to the comment. >> sustained. >> these were all people, every single one of them that you at least had a personal conversation with at some point during the course of your representation? >> all of my clients -- absolutely. i had multiple conversations with all of my clients. >> and these were one of them r that you looked in the eye and convinced them that everything was right. >> objection, your honor. >> 403, repetitive, cumulative. we spent two hours doing this yesterday. >> i'm just trying to show --

simple questions that applies to everybody and then i'm moving on. >> proceed. >> i would have had conversations with all of my clients and some of the conversations would have been on the telephone. i would have had conversations where i might not be looking them in the eye. i would have had plenty of conversations where i did look them in the eye. >> every single one of them looked them in the eye at least once, is that fair? >> sure. >> every single one of them you looked them in the eye and developed their trust in you. is that true? >> every client that i had at some point i looked them in the eye and i believed i had the trust of my clients. whether that came from me looking them in the eye or not, i can't answer that, but i will agree with you that every single client i looked them in the eye and i believe that the people that i stole money from for all those years trusted me. >> and i'm going to show you what's been previously admitted

as state's 329, i believe it is and 314, and i'm just going to ask you to peruse those spreadsheets really quickly, and when you have a chance to do that, let me know. i have a bunch of questions about that. >> i'm sorry, what was the question? >> i just asked you to look at them. would you free with me that every single name on here are either clients that trusted you that you stole from or instances in which you stole from your law partners who trusted you as well. >> i agree with that. >> so we don't need to go through each one of these,

correct? mr. waters like i've told you, i'll go through whatever you want to go through, but each one of those clients is just what we've already talked about. good people, fine people, upstanding people. they trusted me. every single one of them i did and i do still care about and many of them i love and consider them close friends. >> like -- >> absolutely. perfect example. >> and you store from bara bore. >> do you recall a conversation with ronny crosby that brara was desperate for money, his wife was undergoing treatment for cancer around the time you stole from him? >> objection's overruled. >> i don't recall that conversation, but you know, i

knew barrett was sick. you know, barrett is a unique situation. i mean, barrett -- barrett is and was dear to me as a friend, but i mean, barrett and i had a long, long history, you know, lied by omission in stealing that money. that's a perfect example. you keep asking me about having these conversations and looking people in the eye. i mean, that's a perfect example. i mean, when i stole that money he was nowhere around. it was more based on lies by omission, and barrett and i had such a history, these real estate deals that you're asking me about, barrett was one of my

good friends, and we had been in these real estate deals together. barrett was just an interesting person. he was a shrimper born and raised in allendale county, and he moved down to the coast. >> mr. murdaugh, we don't need barrett's entire lifestyle. >> it's important to understand this based on the question you asked. >> i don't think his entire lifestyle is responsive, your honor. >> and i'm not intending to give his life story. i'm just telling you a little background. >> go ahead, tell us about your friend. that's fine. >> so bare barrett started getting into real estate, and he was really good at it, so i started getting involved with him in that. he could find pieces of property that were really cheap, get them and sell them and make money. we got in some of these deals, and barrett and some other people. well, when the recession hit, one of the reasons these land

deals caused me trouble is because the people that i was these deals with no longer could pay. whereas i might have gone in and i was a 20% person, i'm now all of a sudden, either i have to default at the bank and affect credit, affect the ability to borrow or i have to pay 100%, and so that's what i did. i paid 100%, and so there were years where i was paying instead of a fifth or a half, i'm paying the whole thing, and it equated to millions of dollars, which is one of the ways why i ended up with the moselle property because i paid more than a million dollars moneys for barrett, and that was part of the deal and the trade in me

purchasing moselle. >> so what you're telling me is you felt like you were entitled to steal from him? >> no, no, you know what, i will tell you this that, you know,. >> when you're doing the things wrong that i was doing, you have all kinds of way of justifying it. i'm not saying that makes it right because it's not. it's wrong i said that 100 times, but when i was doing it and i was as addicted as i was, and the things i was doing, there's all kind of things that you, you know -- to be able to look yourself in the mirror, you lie to yourself and i guess self-justification for these bad things. you know, i guess is what i was doing. barrett had owed me so much money that when i took his money i just didn't tell him. so it was -- it was a lie by omission.

>> all right. all these people on these two exhibits, these are real people that needed this money, is that correct? >> i'm sure they did. >> but it was more important to you that you stole their money on top of the 40% of legal fees that you were taking? >> objection, asked and answered. repetitive. >> i never asked that question. >> i stole their money. >> it was more important to you than their needs, is that correct? >> objection. >> objection's overruled. >> i don't remember sitting down and calculating, okay, is this more important. you know, one of the self-justifications that i talked about, mr. waters is -- and this is one of the things, again, i want to make it clear i don't -- as i sit here today, i do not believe that any of this justifications that i'm talking about made any of this okay because i don't. i've owned up to all this money

i stole. i've tried to since i was confronted and i continue here today. but one of the justifications at the time when i was taking pills and doing the things i was doing was i may ask a part ner, how much is this case with -- and if one of my partners, and i may not even give them all the real facts. if they said this case is worth $100,000, and i go out and i get them $300,000, you know, that's one of the stupid little things, okay, well, this isn't the same. that's one of those justifications that i used in looking back on this that i don't know how i did. but so to sit down and say did i evaluate that they needed the money more than i did, you know, i don't think i did that.

i think i was selfish and i think i just took the money. >> i think i understand. >> i asked you a series of questions yesterday about -- at least relating one conversation you had with one of these clients, and i'm just going to ask you this one, do you remember looking tony satterfield in the eye and lying to him? >> i remember lying to tony satterfield and i remember looking him in the eye on many occasions. >> and lying to him? >> yeah. >> okay. lying to his family? >> i lied to his family. i don't know if i did it in person, but i know i had phone conversations with them where i lied to them. >> okay. let's talk a little bit about the pills, if