switch to xfinity mobile and save big on the new samsung galaxy s23 series. i should get paid more for this. you get paid when you win. from xfinity. home of the 10g network. >> 20, 000, that is approximately the number of drugs the fda has approved in its entire history. but as soon as tonight, one of

those drugs could be on the chopping block, courtesy of a texas court, where a trump appointed u.s. district judge, named matthew kacsmaryk, could rule on a case that seeks to upend access to a key component of medication abortion nationwide. that component is a drug called mifepristone. the fda approved it for use in september of 2000, and since then, it has been used safely by about 5 million people in the united states alone. typically, in tandem with another drug called misoprostol. now, mifepristone works by blocking the production of a hormone that's needed for pregnancy. misoprostol then begins a miscarriage. and the two drugs, when used together, they're about 99. 6% effective at terminating a pregnancy or completing a miscarriage, and they are safe. if you don't want to take the word of the 5 million people in america who have taken that pale, you can look into decades of research that show the risk of complications that mifepristone is less than 0. 4%. that basically means that it is

safer than tylenol and viagra. it is so safe, in fact, as of 2022, more than 54% of abortions in the united states happened with these pills, not surgery. and that percentage is likely to increase in a post-dobbs america. despite all of that, a group the southern poverty law center considers a hate group, it's called the alliance defending freedom -- that group filed a lawsuit against the fda in november. the group filed on behalf of four antiabortion medical organizations, and four antiabortion physicians. the plaintiffs claim that the fda lacked the authority to approve the drug, and did not adequately study it safety and echo fixes sea. the plaintiffs want the judge to issue a preliminary injunction, effectively blocking all access to mifepristone, and revoking the fda's approval. now, that could happen as soon as tonight, or in the coming

days. after dobbs, most abortions are already outright banned in 13 states. and with certain court cases, and supreme court cases hanging in the balance, that number of states could trend up. so, access to medication abortions using pills sent in the mail, that's been a lifeline for many people who live in some of those states with abortion bans. they have been sort of a back pocket remedy, something that could be done covertly, if necessary. in states that have typically banned medication abortion as well, secretly taking these pills comes with risk of criminalization but it is a risk that some people are willing to take. and now, access to that option could be in jeopardy as soon as tonight. and if you think you are safe because you live in a liberal blue state, you may be in for a rude awakening. this impending ruling could mean that even if you are in a blue state, with newly qualified abortion protections, a state like california, michigan or vermont, this

affects you too. your access to the abortion pill that the fda approved 23 years ago, your access will also be called into question, if this judge rules that mifepristone should be taken off the market nationally. just a few hours ago, the lead plaintiff in the case filed a response case brief to the fda and mifepristone manufacture. this response is expected to be the last filing before the judges rule again on that preliminary injunction. our team of producers is watching this case very closely this evening, so we can bring you the latest if and when we have that ruling. now, if the judge decides to block access to mifepristone, the biden administration is expected to file an appeal almost immediately. during a meeting with reproductive rights leaders and and providers and lawyers today, vice president kamala harris indicated that the white house was prepared for a legal battle. and no matter how you add all of this up, it is dismal political calculus for republican leaders.

it is literally the kind of math that could compound political losses that republicans suffered in this past election. this is another indicator right here. earlier this month, attorneys general from 23 states filed briefs in support of revoking the fda's approval of mifepristone. the signatories to that, include attorneys general from states of texas, georgia, arkansas, idaho, south dakota, and a lot of other states that already banned or severely restrict abortion access. here's the thing, though. according to new polling from public religion research institute, most people who actually live in those states do not agree with the position their attorneys general have taken in this case. look at this map. in almost all of the states where attorneys general filed briefs in support of nixing access to the pill, more than 50% of residents in those same states say abortion should be legal. so, the position these republican attorneys general have taken is the exact opposite of what their constituents actually want. in other words, antiabortion

politicians do not have the support to pick this fight, even if movement itself wins in the courts. so, why do it? and what can ordinary citizens and the white house, and the justice department, and even the fda do, once this ruling is out? i have just the folks to ask. joining us now, melissa murray, law professor at new york university, and co-host of the strict scrutiny podcast. also with us, alicia wells cofounder and co-director of the nonprofit group, plan c. melissa, let me just start with you, in terms of what you think the biden administration can and should do. isn't all the time to declare a state of emergency on abortion? is now the time for them to order the fda to operate independently, whatever this judge decides? what are the recourses for the administration? >> it's a great question, alex, because the administration really needs to put it carefully. whatever happens, here this matter will ultimately land in

the supreme court and it's a question that i don't deals with reproductive rights. it also deals with the question of agency authority and this is been something that's also been, a sort of bugaboo for the conservative legal movement. they want to dismantle the administrative state. so, this gives them an opportunity to not only hobble abortion access but also begin the process of undermining the administrative state. so, if the president president were to declare an emergency in reproductive rights, that could have consequences, if it went to the supreme court for the presidents ability in future matters, whether related to abortion or not, for declaring emergencies. and we already saw last year what this court did with the presidents emergency measures to deal with a covid-19 pandemic. so, again, it's something that this administration needs to take seriously, and sort of play a lot of three dimensional chess here. it may make more sense for the administration to let these two court cases play out, and do nothing, and say we have two conflicting cases that see two conflicting things, and the fda just has to sit back and not do anything in the circumstances.

>> elisa wells, when we talk about the reality for people who are in need of abortions tomorrow, the next day, whenever this ruling is down, what are the options? and what does your group suggest people do? i mean, is now the time to start stocking up on mifepristone? i mean, what are the options for people who are terrified hearing this news. >> that's a great question, alex. and i want to point out that already, right now, in the united states, there is a whole bunch of people that don't have access to abortion right now. so, for these folks and for people, if this judge's ruling happens, we know that there are alternate sources that are supplied, pills in the u.s.. and our website planccpills.org less these anna directory. -- it's a physician mediated site

that will ship pills to all states. we know that there are other sites to sell and they are distributing pills in the united states. so, there are other options, they are not perfect. but we want people to know about them. >> can i just ask you, from a clinical perspective, if mifepristone he's unavailable, there's misoprostol, which can be used as part of a one drug particle to terminate pregnancies. can you talk to me about the risks and whatever the complicating factors may be. there is a reason that i think the majority of abortions in the united states at least it's a two drug protocol with both drugs being active, what are the implications, if it's just a single drop that people are forced to use, they need to terminate pregnancy? >> certainly, the preferred protocol is the mifepristone plus the misoprostol. that's not to be more effective and also if you are side effects. it's a better experience for the person having the abortion. but we know that misoprostol is

also very effective and with the proper instruction and access to the medication people can safely and effectively use misoprostol for abortion. >> so it exists as a sort of secondary option if you need to have a medical abortion rather than a surgical abortion. but again there is a region reason that for a very long time we have these two drugs and not one and all of this. and part of that is due to the pain, duress and other side effects that accompany a single drug protocol. melissa, you mentioned to two lawsuits here. and i think you were referring to the action on the partisan state ags is to push back against this. it's a case that spending and texas, effectively saying, the supreme court ruled that the decision on abortion to be returned to the states, and outlawing misoprostol -- mifepristone, sorry, effectively undermines that by taking the decision away from decisions and the state governments to decide on abortion. is that right?

is that what we are talking about here? they are hoping for a split court decision to then sort of complicate the landscape, at least as it concerns judge because mark? is that right. >> there are these 12 blue states that have filed this lawsuit also against the fda and they're seeking to remove the risk evaluation and mitigation strategies that apply to mifepristone, that apply to only a handful drugs, mifepristone being one of them. and the idea here is that it will make mifepristone more accessible to individuals, if those mitigation protocols are removed. but they have also asked for various legal remedies that would basically blunt anything that the judge might do in the texas lawsuit. so, they also asked for the court to declare the fda's approval of mifepristone to be lawful and confirmed. and they have also asked the fda to adjoin any measures to limit the supply of mifepristone to those who may need it. so, adding these additional elements in their lawsuits that in addition to making this more accessible would also block the

force of this, and perhaps predate a kind of slough split across the country that would then perhaps the fda's until the supreme court weighs in here. so the real strategy is delay at this point, to keep access flowing for as long as possible, to as many people as possible, while this fight continues to turn. >> can i ask you, melissa, i write one sort of legal analysis of office. it suggested that the fda doesn't have to do -- the fda can sort of operate the way a traffic cop operates, which is someone is doing 60 miles per hour in a 55 mile per hour speeds, owned the police don't always enforce that. if the fda believes in its vetting of this, in this medication, it doesn't necessarily need to enforce the ban. do you think that is legally sound? >> again, it really depends. there is a lot of questions here about the scope of agency, the questions raised in the texas suit. there are questions in the texas suit about whether or not

the fda, 23 years ago, properly approved and adopted necessarily vetting to improve mifepristone. the suit that was filed today by those 12 blue states made clear that the fda's authority is quite broad. and, again, there is going to be a real factor. this is sort of the venn diagram where the conservative legal movements and antipathy for abortion needs antipathy for the state and that's just means it's going to be this huge -- huge issues that been dying to deal with, coming together in one really fraught political landscape. >> elisa, you know, we are talking about one of the two drugs used in medication abortions. how likely is it that the anti-abortion rights community comes after the other drug in short order, if they are successful on the battle to ban mifepristone, how likely do you think it is that they come after misoprostol, the other drug? >> well, misoprostol it is a very widely used medication for a number of indications.

and it's been on the market for a long time. so, i think it would be very hard to take it off the market at this point. and also, as i mentioned, there is this robust alternate supply network, with both mifepristone and misoprostol coming into this country. and we think that that's pretty much unstoppable. they will be coming into the country through the mail, through other sources, and be widely distributed. we know already that there are groups distributing tens of thousands of pills just since the dobbs decision. >> are you at all worried about this distribution at works, because there have been some talks on the right about trying to regulate and crack down on abortion medication that's what passed through the mail? >> we think it's inevitable that this is going to succeed as a route of access. what we do area to be criminalized for self managing their abortions, even though those states don't have laws against self managed abortion. we know that since 2000, and in the 20-year period, 61 people have been criminalized for

either self managing their own abortions, or helping somebody self manage an abortion. so, we worry that that will impact people who are self managing their abortions, and we know that the risk in our criminal justice system of criminalization falls heaviest on people with color, youths, low income folks, and others. we want to get the word out that nobody should be criminalized for managing their own health care. but at the same time, we do know that these alternate networks are available to people. and if people choose to use them, we want them to know the risks. >> yes. melissa, it just seems, for a lack of a better metaphor, the dog that got the card, if you talk about this more broadly the spectrum of american politics, right? republicans know that this is costing them support. it's an issue that americans nationally care about, and it's an issue that people in red states very much care about, which is that freedom to make reproductive choices. and now, you know, the

antiabortion movement has fired up. and it's having some success in the court. i mean, what is your estimate of what this does, in terms of pressure for the federal republican party, which is to say congressional republicans to move forward on the federal ban? >> i think we will see if the republicans get control of congress that the next election, they will surely be -- the question will be whether there is a president and blaze who is willing to enact it and sign it. again, you are exactly right. this is an episode of minority rule. there is mitchell therrien support in every state in the union, even red states for abortion rights, they may defer to the substance, and they believe the constitution should recognize the right to abortion. and many have argued that including this state legislature that has already been gerrymandered beyond recognition, we have essentially cultivated conditions where the supreme court, having given this back to the people for democratic

deliberation have made it impossible for them their decisions to make them actually democratic and majority therrien. so, abortion is not only a political issue, it's now a gerrymandered issue. >> indeed it is. melissa mary and elisa wells, thank you both for joining us on a very important evening. >> thank you. >> that is not the only big story we are covering tonight. there is also the republican congressman who isn't just the criticizing democratic congresswoman judy chu, but actually questioning her loyalty to the united states. you're gonna get her reaction live, later on. we also have the brewing battle of a former vice president mike pence's subpoenaed to testify to the special counsel investigating january 6th. pence is calling the subpoena unconstitutional. but one of his own former legal advisers, what he's telling us. that's next. ♪ ♪ ♪

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>> today, nbc news reports that special counsel jack smith is in court, trying to force former vice president mike pence to testify in response to a subpoena, as part of the doj 's sprawling january 6th investigation. nbc news ali vitali sat down with a former vice president earlier this evening, and got his reaction to that news. >> the idea of subpoenaing a former vice president to testify in court against the president, i believe is unprecedented in american history. but as i said last, week i believe it's also unconstitutional. >> of course, the former vice president has had no problem discussing his interactions with trump on january six, as part of a nationwide media tour to promote his new book. and now, pence's refusal is drawing criticism from a towering conservative figure

whose advice pence previously sought. former federal judge michael luttig whose counsel pence sought during trump's pressure campaign in the days before january six. luttig argues today in the new york times that not only is pence's positioned just flat out wrong, but that pence's criticism of the subpoena as a political maneuver could not be further from the truth. luttig writes, quote, the only question now is not whether pence will have to testify before the grand jury, but how soon? jack smith's subpoena was neither politically motivated nor designed to strengthen president biden's political hand in 2024. that is the jarring dissonance between the subpoena and mr. pence's characterization of it. it is mr. pence who has chosen to politicize the subpoena, and not the doj. the legal titan who advised vice president pence and the most perilous moment of his career is now publicly questioning pence's legal strategy, which is probably as

good as mine as any than his legal argument is maybe perhaps moot. joining us now to figure all that out is barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan, and professor at the university of michigan school of law. barb, thank you as always for being here tonight. my first question is, michael luttig who was an important adviser to mike pence is just tearing apart his legal argument for not complying with the subpoena. first and foremost, he says it's not a question of if but when. and the courts will decide on this soon. do you agree with that, that if this is a delay tactic, it's not gonna work in mike pence's favor? >> yes, i think that's right, alex. i mean, you know, the judge, luttig, is a lion in the conservative, legal community. it's really fascinating for him to take such a public stand on this issue, especially as you said, he was the one advising

mike pence back on january 6th. and now, to make this bold statement. i think it's right. i mean, you know, mike pence is being very aggressive here, in trying to behind a shield that's intended for legislators to protect him from harassment by the executive branch. you know, it's quite a stretch for him to claim that. but even if it does offer any protection whatsoever, it is not a complete shield from even a hearing before the grand jury. you would have to assert it on a question by question basis, even if there are some things pertaining to his activity on january 6th, while he was acting as president of the senate and certifying the vote, it certainly does apply to everything within his knowledge about the events of january 6th. so, i think jack smith will prevail here. and i think it will result in some delay. but, you know, the court seemed to be moving rapidly on some of these privilege claims, and so, one hopes that they can get mike pence before the grand jury in short order. >> yes, i'll read a little bit

of the luttig op-ed, the courts quickly disposed of senator lindsey graham's speech or debate clause, claim requiring him to testify before the grand jury empaneled and fulton county, georgia. and his claim, lindsey graham's claim, was far stronger than mike pence's. in the unlikely event that mr. pence's claim were to make it to the supreme court, it, too could be expected to take swift action. he sounds like it's not even a question that the supreme court would rule in jack smith's favor. do you agree with that? >> yes, i think that's right. it seems like such a stretch. you know, mike pence says, this is unprecedented. no vice president has ever been subpoenaed to testify against the president he served with. well, that is because the situation has never occurred in the history of the united states. so, of course it is unprecedented. but, there is really no reason to think that mike pence is not having an obligation like everyone else to appear before a grand jury, and a grand jury is entitled to every man's

evidence, every persons evidence. and you can't use privileges designed to protect one branch of government as a shield to protect yourself. you know, he has asserted executive privilege, and now when it suits him, he's now asserting speech or debate clause, which is a legislative privilege when it suits him. i think these privileges safeguard some aspects of his communications. but it's not gonna safeguard all of it. he's gonna need to show up. >> you're talking about the speech or debate clause, which technically would protect some of the experiences and commentary and conversations while he was president at the senate that day. but luttig goes on to make the point that, you know, mr. smith, jackson at the special counsel, wants to know about pence's communications and interactions with the president, trump, before, during, and perhaps during the vote count, which are entirely fair game for a grand jury investigating possible crimes against the united states. there's plenty of it happening outside of his role as president of the senate, that

the special counsel would be interested in, if not more interested in. and so, you agree with luttig here that pence, if he wants to invoke the speech and debate clause, he's going to have to do that question by question, and can't act as a blanket to prevent him from testifying. >> yes, that's right. and i think there may even be a waiver here. for one, he's talking with a member of the executive branch. so, if he wants protection as a legislator, he seems to have lifted by talking to donald trump, who was a member of the executive branch. he also may have waved it by writing all about it in the book, so anything he wrote in the book would be fair game, i think. and also, alex, there has is an exception when there is a conversation about future activity to advance a crime. and that's told prosecutors who investigate bribery cases. if a member of congress could always say, if you can't ask me anything about my vote because unprotected by my speech or debate clause, he you would never be able to prosecute a member of congress for

accepting bribes, and that's done all the time. and i think there's a number of ways for jack smith to get around this. it seems he is being aggressive in asking the court to rule in his favor, and command mike pence to appear before a grand jury. >> you know you are in trouble when your former lawyer is basically saying jack smith has the -- the upper hand here and your argument is laid out. wrong barb mcquade, thank you for your time tonight. always good to see you. >> thank you, alex. >> still more to come on this busy friday night, including outrage after republican lawmaker publicly questioned the loyalty of the first chinese american woman elected to the u.s. congress. congresswoman judy chu joins us to respond, live. that's next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪♪ hey, heading on a family trip? nah, sorry son prices are crazy, we're gonna have to skip it this year. (son deflating fully to the ground.) awh, well use priceline they have package deals no one else has. five pools?

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>> since it opened its doors and los angeles and 1973, east west bank has served as acquittal institution for chinese americans often overlooked by other banks. for 50 years, the focus of its business has been to build financial and cultural bridges between the u.s. immigrant communities and asia. so, it's not out of the ordinary that at the end of demanding that mr. -- be -- -- appointed the man who has been east white's banks ceo for 30 years, dominic-ing, to share biden's asia focus advisory council. the last week, a group of house republicans decided to take it upon themselves to write a letter to the fbi, demanding

that mr. ing be investigated for potentially violating the espionage act. their allegation is that this prominent chinese american businessmen whose bank is all about connecting the east and west was secretly connected to china, specifically they alleged that he served leadership roles into groups that were allegedly fronts for chinese intelligence. democratic congresswoman judy chu and several other members of the congressional asia-pacific african caucus responded by publishing their own statement, defending mr. ng and the extensive vetting he went through that appointment. now, i want you to hear how republican lance gooden of texas, he's one of the republican members who sent that letter to the fbi in the first place. here's how he responded to congresswoman chu. this is what he said about the first chinese american woman elected to congress, who's the chair of the congressional asian pacific american caucus. >> i think that judy chu needs to be called out. and i think that if she was an intelligence committee member

this week, that kevin mccarthy would be taking her off the committee. >> do you think congresswoman chu should be looked into? >> i think everyone standing out for chinese communist parties should be looked into. yes, i question her either loyalty or competence, if she doesn't realize what's going on. and she is totally out of touch with one of her core constituencies. i think she has dragged along the other chinese american members to sign this letter. but i do think she is the ring leader. and i'm fairly disappointed and shocked that someone like judy chu would have a security clearance and be entitled to confidential intelligence briefings until this is figured out. >> joining us now is california congresswoman judy chu, the first chinese american woman ever elected to congress, and of course the chair of the congressional asia-pacific american caucus. congresswoman, thank you for being with me tonight. i'm sorry that it had to be under these circumstances. but i would like to get your reaction to the congresswoman who had a lot to say about you, calling you a ringleader,

questioning your loyalty and competence, suggesting your security clearance should be revoked. your thoughts? >> congress member goodin's comments questioning my loyalty to the u.s. is absolutely outrageous and disgusting. it's false information spread by the extreme right wing website, but furthermore, it's racist, i very much doubt that he will be spreading these lies who are not of chinese american descent. in my opinion, it is mccarthyism at its worst, and it's downright dangerous, making ugly and false accusations like this puts a target on my back for something that is not true. and in fact, it just perpetuates this stereotype that asian americans are foreigners in their own land, no matter how many generations they have been in this country, or are like me, born and raised in this country. but we have to look at where this is coming from. congress member goodin appears to simplify with violent

insurrectionists and spreads big lies to the american people. having voted not to certify the election of president biden and, in fact, he's one of those extreme maga republicans in the house focused on baseless conspiracy theories. >> yes, the xenophobia and the nativism and the race baiting is not even subtle in the commentary, calling you a ringleader, suggesting you are dragging along other chinese american members, and you are not loyal, either loyal or competent, questioning your ability to serve in congress. there's a lot to say about this. but for those who have -- who did not hear your initial push back on the contention that the businessman in question, mr. or ng, is an agent of chinese intelligence. can you explain why you are confident that he should serve in the position that president biden appointed him to? >> dominic ng is an icon in the ap i community.

he brought this back from a time when it was very small, and when there was such intercessory to be able to have loans for the local asian american community, to a nationwide bank. and he's highly respected by many, certainly in the api community, but also in the entire community. of course he was vetted extensively for this position. and we need him right now, actually, because we want to create closer ties with other asian countries, so that we can make sure that we have allies in asia as indeed our competitiveness with china becomes more tense. so, he is somebody that definitely should serve in this position.

and it is just horrendous that they would try to ruin his reputation with baseless lies. >> yeah, and i think it's important to hear what you are saying, because the rights vilification of this individual, the rights targeting of you as a defender of this individual has been unabashed and unfounded. and it is coming at a moment where asian americans find themselves targets of hate, nationwide. i mean, if you look at the number in the state of california, which you represent and congress, look at the numbers of reports of anti asian hate crimes from 2012 to 2021. i mean, the number that is 247 incidents in 2021. i mean, what -- what do we need to be doing differently as a society? and what do we need to tell the purveyors of this hate, some of whom sit in the u.s. congress?

>> well, we have to tell them to stop these baseless conspiracy theories. and i have to stop perpetuating the foreigner in their own land stereotype. and they have to stop having stereotypes such as when trump called the pandemic the china virus, and it seemed like china was responsible for the world shut down. he put a target on the backs of all asian americans in this country. and in fact, there were those, because of that, who wanted to kill api, because of their anger about covid. and so, this accusation of chinese americans being disloyal to this country only exacerbate the ugly feelings that are about api's.

after all, this anti asian hate which did result in many hate crimes over these last years. so, we must stop that. and i hope that every decent american will call out these republican conspiracy maga republicans out on this and tell them that they have to stop this, for the sake of this country. >> well, we know that you are playing your party and calling them out. and i think the nation is grateful for that. california congresswoman judy chu, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you so much. >> we have yet more to come tonight on this anniversary of russia's invasion of ukraine. as blue and yellow tributes to ukraine appear around the world, the u.s. pledges even more help, and we will hear the case from why this is a fight the west cannot let russia when. and later, colleges in ron desantis's florida brace for even more draconian changes. we will tell you about the

latest attack in his so-called war on woke. stick around for that one. ♪ ♪ ♪ heartburn all day and all night. prilosec otc reduces excess acid for 24 hours, blocking heartburn before it starts. one pill a day. 24 hours. zero heartburn. nicorette knows quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like... just stop. go for a run. go for ten runs. run a marathon. instead, start small with nicorette, which will lead to something big. >> today, marks one year since

russia launched its brutal full scale invasion of ukraine. in kyiv, president zelenskyy today addressed troops near sent at sophia federal, the landmark that's become a symbol of the city's resilience. in nearby bucha, a town that has become synonymous with russian atrocities, there was another somber memorial as

families gathered at a local cemetery to lay flowers and mourn the dead. the conflict has killed at least 20,000 ukrainians, including 13,000 soldiers, and 7000 civilians. today, the u.s. announced an additional two billion dollars and military support for ukraine, including laser guided rocket systems, and switchblade drones. the u.s. is responding to china's call for a cease-fire. secretary of state, anthony blinken, warned the u. n. security council today not to be fooled by calls for a temporary truce because russia will use any pause to prepare for further attacks. michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia argues in a new op-ed today that, a year into the war, with winning bipartisan support here at home, there remain many practical and moral reasons for america to continue assisting ukraine. ukrainians are fighting russian soldiers invading europe so that american and nato soldiers do not have to do so later.

ukraine is defeating russia much larger military would send a powerful deterrent message as chinese leader xi jinping calculates the costs of invading taiwan. less importantly, mcfaul argues, the success of democratic ukraine and repelling autocratic russia would reassure small d democracies around the world that our ideas are gathering steam. small d democrats in belarus, burma, iran, and even russia would feel more emboldened. joining us now is michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia under president obama, ambassador mcfaul, good to see you. thank you for being here today. as someone whose mother is burmese, i have to ask you, what lessons do you think the small d democrats are taking from the battle as it stands presently? >> so, i was meeting with some opposition figures from burma, in fact, three days ago, and that phrase came from them. they are seeing, we are fighting for democracy against these autocratic regimes all

over the world, and i would say the same about iranians, belarusians, russians that i've met with, literally, in just the last several days. they fear that, if putin prevails in ukraine, a dictatorship destroying democracy, that has negative consequences for all of their fights, whereas, if ukraine succeeds, and forges this invasion, annexation, by the way, recolonization of ukraine, some things we thought we got rid of several decades ago, it will send a message that democracy is back. there is a long, you know, several years, where democracy has been eroding around the world in terms of reading, including here in our own country, this is a positive signal for all of them. i think the stakes here, first and foremost, of course, are about ukraine for ukrainians, but much larger implications for the entire world. >> a test case for democracy in a time of rising authoritarianism, and certainly

the rest of the world is watching. speaking of the rest of the world, you know, china has gotten itself directly involved in all of this. there is some real, i think, concern about what the chinese are advising in terms of a cease-fire. do you see china solely as an enabler of russia at this point? do you think there is a potential role for the chinese down the road in terms of potentially brokering a cease fire because they are one of the countries putin listens to, and also, the chinese likes stability, even though they'd like to see an example that could justify them invading taiwan, i'm sure, they prefer a more stable world, generally speaking. could china, potentially, be used in a row for a good here at some point? >> maybe. so far, i'd say, she jinping is trying to have his cake and eat it too. he is not supporting putin the way putin would like. he didn't endorse this war. a year ago, there is a vote at the un general assembly, they abstained. there was one the other day,

they abstained again. if you're vladimir putin, you don't want your best buddy in the world abstaining. we are not abstaining in our support for ukraine. that is the good news. the bad news, they're also criticizing us, blaming us, and, as we heard over the last several days, made public at the munich security conference, when vice president harris called them out on it, i was there in the room when she said it, there are some intelligence reporting that suggests there are not even changing their policy and supporting with weapons and technologies, the russians. that would be a big change in russia, chinese policy. it was right for us to push back on it. having said all, that i agree with what secretary blinken just said, that you reported. we don't want a cease-fire in ukraine because that just gives putin time to reconstruct his army, and attack again. we had that back in 2014, it didn't work out. we need a permanent peace, and that's what the chinese need to support, not just a cease-fire, but something much more long term.

>> what is your optimism about getting some bipartisan support broadly for continued support of ukraine? there are establishment figures in the gop that understand the stakes, that understand this as a test case for democracy, but there is an insurgent maga wing of the republican party intent on cutting off aid to ukraine, that's very much in the thrall of isolation and nativism. what is the case that can be made? what is the case the president can make to a group of people that decidedly don't want to listen to him? >> that's why i wrote that piece, thank you for quoting it, alex. i wrote that piece to say, okay, maybe don't care about democracy, i care about it, maybe you don't, i care about the innocent slaughter of civilians in ukraine, maybe you don't care. i care about colonization, annexation, these are really bad things, maybe you don't care. if you just care about our national security interests, you should also want the ukrainians to win. if the ukrainians win, we don't have to spend as much money in europe, right? maga republicans like to talk

about that, burden sharing. if they win, we don't have to spend as much, we don't have to send our soldiers to the frontline states. if they lose, we are going to have to defend our allies. that is costly for the united states. same about china, thank you for bringing that up, there is this contradiction among some republicans that say we should care about china, and we should not care about russia and ukraine. if russia wins in ukraine, i think that sends a very bad signal to xi jinping, whereas, if you loses, it sends a deterrent signal. i was in taiwan several months ago, and let me tell you, the taiwanese, there is nobody cheering louder for ukrainians than the taiwan, they understand that these things are connected. i hope other americans will as well. >> it is the center of a lot of important converging systems, as it were. michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia, always good to see you. thank you for your wisdom this evening, sir. >> thanks for having me.

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out across the state of florida yesterday, public university students protesting governor desantis's policies targeting lgbtq students of color, and for good reason. desantis and his partners in the so-called war on woke were at that very moment waging a new battle inside the florida legislature. republican representative alex andrade introduced house bill 909 this week, a 23-page proposal that mirrors many of desantis's sensorial or while ian ideas about how to limit diversity, equity, and inclusion in florida's public colleges and universities. the bill, if approved, would

ban degrees in subjects related to critical race theory and gender studies. it would empower boards of trustees in each school to hire professors, you may recall that these are boards where the majority of the members are picked by governor desantis. some experts are already calling this legislation the most restrictive bill on higher education in the history of this country, while others say it is the end of academic independence as we know it. that's the show for this evening. coming up next, nbc's richard engel speaks with ukrainian civilians who formed an underground resistance to liberate the city of kherson for marshall avocation. on assignment: ukraine's secret resistance begins now. [sirens] ♪ ♪ ♪ >> russian troops tried and