criminal case. but a year later the state supreme court reversed the appeals court decision and in 2017, yet another attempt by jason young to get a third trial. this time on grounds that his defense team was ineffective, was also denied. >> i love you mommy. >> i love you to cassidy. >> the children know little of the arcane world. cassidy has grown. and her father, her mother, a memory, ever farther away. >> that is all for this edition of dateline, i'm craig melvin, thank you for watching. >> happy saturday morning too. >> this now, for saturdays we voted on saturday. >> coffee, and morning joe on

saturday. >> you are watching morning joey cans, we had a really busy week. under 2024 poll shows president joe biden getting support among democrats ahead of unexpected reelection campaign. and, that was before his historic trip to ukraine. >> and, you know, what was crazy is that more democrats now want joe biden to run for reelection and republicans want donald trump to run for president in 2024. he seems to be losing support while joe biden is gaining support from his base. >> that is saying something, here is some of our discussion from thursday show. >> along with joe, willie, and me we have a house of way too early, white house bureau chief and politico and now and msnbc host. her no-show, inside with jen psaki debate on sunday, march 19th. very exciting, jen, that is awesome. >> all right, so, as president

biden returns home from europe there is new polling that is showing support for his possible reelection bid. >> they are changing a lot, the latest survey of all democrats and democratic leaving independent say that party has a better chance of winning the white house at 2024 at biden at the top of the ticket. 45% say they should give another candidate a chance,. but, you look at november, those numbers from 38% to 50%. again, those polls are just a snapshot that does not mean a whole lot. if joe biden decides he wants to run for reelection he is going to run for reelection, and democrats would be stupid to run against him unless something changes, dramatically. again, joe biden is a guy who is constantly underestimated throughout this entire political career. constantly underestimated during the political campaign in 2020, mocked, ridiculed,

abused by the right and the progressive left. constantly underestimated even over the past two years. you know, we quietly hear whispers of somebody has to run and set a biden, somebody has to run instead of biden. and then the midterms come, and then it is like. you know what, a week later, he has told somebody else house runs that the biden. and then he does a state of the union and they go okay, we are fine, we are fine. two nights later they bed-wetting begins again from people in the democratic party. oh, we can't. suddenly the guy is showing up on a secret trip to kyiv after taking a ten hour train ride in, where he could very easily have been killed by enemy troops as he went through the war zone. and, now, people are like well, yeah, maybe. maybe this guy that did 20 hours of train rides that i

would guarantee you donald trump would have never had the you know what to do. never had the guts to do. and all of the fat boys who are criticizing joe biden on the far-right in their spenders would never have had the nerve to do what he did. he did it and he went to kyiv. he sent a strong message not only to ukraine, but to the entire world about what america, not democrats, not joe biden, what america thinks of democracy, and how we are behind ukraine. it is a strong message, i think you are going to start seeing in the polls more. especially among democrats. yeah, okay, yeah, this guy who went into a war zone in a way no other president did since abraham lincoln in the civil war, yeah, maybe he is up to running for reelection. >> yeah, and here is something interesting, that poll was taken before the events of the last four days. that does not even factor in

four democrats thinking about whether joe biden should run again, the trip into the war zone, the speech on tuesday, the meeting yesterday. he is back home now, jen psaki i think if you l the timeline of the lip from november to now, november was a time of great concern. there was gnashing of teeth and everything else. that we would lose the senate, the house was going to go by a huge margin, we would love effectively lose the country to republicans and it did not turn out that way. and also, the specter of donald trump getting into the race becomes more real and democrats say oh, that is right, joe biden is the guy who already beat them. maybe he is the right guy to run again. >> that is right, well, and if you are sitting in a white house in months like this where you are waiting for impact and waiting for this terrible outcome in november. i think even they were surprised in some ways by how well the democrats did given what the expectations were in november. but, for months they have been waiting inside the white house

for something to break in the polls, they're way. there were historic bills pass on climate change, on rebuilding the roads, nothing seemed to move. there was an election that went better than expected but nothing seemed to move. the good thing for them and for joe biden as he looks to likely run in the next two years is that he was born with a good, healthy chip on his shoulder because he has always been underestimated. because of that it means he always feels he has something to prove. that is what motivates him to give a state of the union address that would have made me tired because it was almost an hour and a half. and to go, sit on a train for ten hours. i think some of it is also that, that intangible. this guy actually does have energy and also experience, we will see how that plays out in the polls in the weeks ahead but they have been waiting for something to break for a couple of months now and it looks like something finally is. >> well, i am so glad that john

brought up being underestimated, reminds me of another president where there are some parallels, a man who we talked about being miss underestimated. of course, i'm talking about george w. bush. 43 democrats still can't believe they lost him two times. they still cannot believe it, and yet he is a guy who they underestimated. we talked about reagan, new gingrich after the midterms that biden is another reagan. he is another ike, people don't remember with democrats but made fun of ike as being the simple, dumb soldier who golfed all day. and so, ike was always underestimated while he was quietly the guy who helped us when world war ii. it sounds crazy but that is what some people thought about him. the guy who is figuring out how to run government to his advantage. you have seen this from the

beginning, you have seen biden underestimated from the beginning. you have seen for a year, a year and a half, seeing progressives say why don't you work with the republicans? you will never pass any bipartisan legislation, you are being naive, it is not 1974, you cannot work with the republicans. we get to the end of the session and joe biden has more bipartisan legislation pass than anybody baby having to go back to fdr. maybe having to go back to lbj. it is pretty extraordinary. and then you have to go back to fdr if you want to look at some of the things he accomplished in the midterms for a president in his first midterm election. he did things no president had done since fdr. >> yes, white house aides point to the record and say it speaks for itself, this is a president who took office just two weeks after an insurrection at the citadel of our democracy. he took office at the height of the pandemic with economic turmoil. and, he has steadied the ship not just on those fronts, he

has passed an extraordinary mount of legislation, the most since lbj in his first two years. he has also held together a global alliance backing ukraine trying to repel an invasion from its much larger neighbor. yes, they understand there's gonna be speculation about president biden, he is 80 years old, he has not yet announced he is running for president again and there are some democrats who are taking steps to create a plan b just in case, but most believe he will. and, he will go into this next race in a far stronger position than most would have anticipated. particularly coming off of last november's successful midterms with the democrats. and, they like the contrast between this and the republican field, and we should also note is the same polling that suggests democrats are warming to the idea of another biden run, they are actually having far fewer republicans who want another trump run. think that trump will be their best chance to win in 2024.

>>,. ? >> that is what the poll suggests, that new democrats and democratic leading independents back biden. >> that is ron desantis. >> i think what the sentence is responsible for this. >> coming up, we're looking at the possible fallout from a bizarre meteor tore by the foreperson of a georgia grand jury. wow! that was a nightmare! >> what was that about? what was that about? it is crazy! >> including how it could protect potential indictments from the phone this county journey. we will be right back. ht back. and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv

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we couldn't stream a movie when the power went out. you're only a year older than me. you have no idea how good you've got it. huh? what a time to be alive. introducing the next generation 10g network. >> i mean, that is some talking only from xfinity. the future starts now. going on. >> we get specific. >> to walk up the line if you

watch your full conversation a few times and stop before disclosing too much, is there any chance that the judge may be watching your interview and other print interviews and saying hold on a second? >> i am just curious, we talk about her walking up the line, blaine, did she crossed the line? did she and situate answers that she should not be insinuating and what is the consequence of that? >> those were our questions yesterday about the many interviews given by the foreperson of the fulton county special grand jury that investigated former president trump's alleged interference into the states 2020 election. emily coors essentially did a media tour since the partial release of the grand jury's report. and now, cbs news reports lawyers close to several witnesses and the investigation are looking to use statements by corps to squash any potential indictments by the district attorney. they argue her comments could

taint the investigation. to be clear, the special grand jury can only recommend charges. the district attorney would have to bring indictments before a regular grand jury, her office is refusing to comment on those media interviews by course. >> we have former u.s. attorney harry lippman and senior attorney for palm beach county, florida. what do you think of the statements? are they prejudicial? will they stop donald trump and others are being indicted in georgia? >> good morning, it will not stop an indictment against the former president, keep in mind it is a feature of our grand jury system, not a bug or a 30 year old unemployed individual who does not even vote in elections to decide whether a former president will be indicted for the first time in our country's history. it is not a feature for a grand jury to blabbed her extant adventure during her eight month experience. and how funny rudy giuliani

was. one thing it does show is that she is not a partisan, no democrat i know whatever be laughing with rudy giuliani. and, you can expect future court challenges from defendants because of her mediator. but, if trump is indicted it will not affect matters. because, as micah said this is a special purpose cranberry. this is not the grand jury that will be doing the indictments. this is a grand jury that advises the district attorney on whether she should seek indictments. also, she did not give away the store, she did conceal what was redacted in the grand jury report, she did not get away the grand jury deliberations. so, although it is a bad look it will not make a difference in the end. >> and, harry, that is kind of the point you have been making as well. which is, it is not great, this jury foreperson wasn't drawing the media tour at the time in the spotlight. said something she should not have said in public and gave

donald trump a whole bunch of ammunition in the political and social media around. but, does this actually impact the possibility that there might be indictments in the case? >> the possibility there are incitement i cannot see it implicating because she is going to make her own judgments. that is one of the points that dave i substantially grew with him. this is an exercise that goes to her and then the real incitements happen. of course, anything that it is that all unorthodox and lord knows this is unorthodox will be the basis for emotions when the defense comes to the table. but, there is no change here, in fact, although she is talking out of school she is not doing anything against the law. they have been discharged, now, and her immediate tore is imprudent. but, really there is no basis at all for challenging any indictment that comes out. >> there was one detail i would like to take on buried in the atlanta journey of constitution

where she talked about interviewing the late georgia house speaker while holding a ninja turtle popsicle she was given out an ice cream party thrown by the da. so, take the ninja turtle popsicle cold detail out of it. but, why was the da holding an ice cream party for members of the grand jury? is not a problem? >> totally sharp on your part to zero in on that, that is one thing that should not be happening, again, it is a separate exercise but they should not be holding ice cream parties. i don't think they were, i think it is quite likely that the given day the 23 or maybe even the prosecutor brought the equivalent of donuts and that is the way she put it. that is something you will have to look into, on the other hand i think she blatantly crossed the line many times. but, it is not always because people are not taking account of the unlikely legal implications. it is shortsighted because it is making us neglect the headline. she has much as told us that

they are recommending the first ever indictment of the former president of the united states, plus, probably, several well-known names. you can guess as well as i can but giuliani, meadows, eastman, et cetera. that is the seismic event, when it occurs i think this will be a little rumble that the defense will try to do whatever they can with. and, anything that happens but there is no legal basis to challenge it. >> residents of east palestine, ohio, still dealing with fallout for the trained rail meant that led to a spill of toxic chemicals. coming up, we spoke with an environmental activist erin brockovich who was in the disaster zone, why she says she has never seen anything so mishandled. and, what she says these residents need to know. nts need to know

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feeling the impact of this disaster, norfolk southern house to be there. not just this year, not as well the press are here, but every single day. but, also norfolk southern and the other freight rail country companies need to stop fighting us. >> the transportation secretary visited aipac east palestine ohio as residents continue to deal with the fallout from that train derailment that led to a spill of toxic chemicals. environmental activists erin brockovich also visited the disaster zone. back in the 90s she help discovered the toxic groundwater that was poisoning the residents of hinckley, california. and now, she has a message for the people of east palestine. i asked her what official should have done differently right from the start. >> it was immediately being communicated with that not only do i hear you, i see you, i acknowledge you. and, yes they evacuated them for a short period of time, but did they bring them home too

soon? what i am worried always gets missed's officials, agencies do not listen to what they are experiencing. they have gone back and they have told you they are still smelling things, their tongue tingles, their lips are turning blue, their children have coughs. they have terrible headaches, and you are not listening to the very people on the ground that are being exposed. and, not further looking into the situation. or, even saying to them we may need to evacuate again. tell them the truth! whether it hurts or they don't want to hear it. i have said this before, i'm going to say it again, the communities will handle the truth because they can plan and be prepared for what is to come. what they cannot handle is the lie andy not showing up, and sounding and all clear to protect your rear, yet they are still in jeopardy. >> miss brockovich, i am unsure

of the tap water in flint michigan and whether it is safe to drink either today. and it was several years ago when that happened. and i am not sure when the cleanup will be complete where you are standing this morning. you mentioned decades of cleanup, but i am sure of one thing. if this had happened in an affluent american suburb we would not be talking about so much delay intending to the problem by the federal government. is that your view? >> well, it certainly looks that way. they know things, it really comes from a common sense place. i recall being in hinckley and being told you're not this, you are not that, you are not a doctor, you are not the scientist. what would you know? and it is like, you don't have to be any of that to be a human and to recognize that this is wrong, all the green water is wrong, and these people are

watching their animals die, their fish have died. there are symptoms they know, they're coming from that perspective and they are screaming from the roof tops can you see me? can you hear me? and they still do not feel protected. and, that is the biggest problem. we continue to do the same thing in how we respond to these environmental emergencies, over, and over, and over again. they are not effective, we have to move forward in a better way and become proactive with this communities, and prevent these disasters instead of just being reactive when they happen. >> miss brockovich, you obviously have a lot of experience with matters like these. what would be your advice to the people who are watching this, live there, live nearby? in terms of short term and long term what they should be doing? should they be entering any sort of agreement with railway companies? should they feel like it is safe to come back to their homes? how would you counsel them? >> do not, in my opinion, my

personal opinion being a human within a situation like this. do not sign anything and certainly do not sign anything from norfolk southern railroad. they are not your friend. i mean, right now they are the ones doing the testing. they are the ones that are running the show on the air train derailment. and, by the way i am hearing a lot from the employees of their railroad. i am hearing a lot and getting a lot of whistleblower information. look this real had derailment zones on and they knew it. this company runs a terrible corporate model, they are for it to it as the precision schedule railroading. which deeply cuts into maintenance, deeply cuts into infrastructure, deeply cuts into going out and suck finding where these spots are. they knew they existed in this town. and, they continue to fail to

do anything about it. these are the kind of things that people need to know going forward. that a bad corporate model is not your friend, please do not sign anything. this is a situation, we are not taking this moment, the miserable water is safe. that is not the way it is going to be tomorrow, this chemicals will migrate through the system for decades, impact many municipalities. wind talk about while water that is oftentimes unregulated, we are going to have to monitor public health and welfare, they should be having their blood drawn every six years because they are not going to show the telltale signs of what is happening to them until into the future. we have had this conversation, even on 9/11 with all the chemicals that rain down in that huge disaster, everybody was safe but look where they are today. this is what happens in these environmental situations. you cannot just say it is all safe and hunky dory in the moment, because that is not what their future is going to be.

>> so, what the people of east palestine are being told right now is extremely invalidating. just like the people who work in the pit after 9/11. many who came down with cancer and other illnesses after being told it was just fine. when your gut, when your basic human brain told you know it was not. no, i feel like i need to be wearing a mask, i feel like i need to be wearing a gas mask. i met those people, i was down, there i saw it, and i saw the disconnect between the da and the testing that was being done on the air. and the reality that was in front of us. so, i guess, in closing you are saying what everyone is feeling? absolutely, and you have been through this, you have been through this experience of being invalidated by those who seem smarter than you. what is your message to the people of east palestine?

especially as you get ready to hold a rally tomorrow? >> so, tomorrow we are going to be there giving out so much information about transport, water, the chemicals, what the future could be, all of that. my message is one we have talked about over and over again. be your own eyes and ears, do not let somebody from an agency, or from norfolk railroads situation tell you that what you are experiencing is not real! it is a huge gaslight on these people. they were here, they lived it, they breathed it. they had to return to, it they are having symptoms and being completely disregarded. that is the thing that makes communiqué so angry. tell him the truth, even if it is gonna be scary or hurtful about what the future might be they will deal with that. what they can't deal with is you can't see them, you won't talk to them, you keep feeding

them a bunch of lies and they are scared. and it is horrible, it is a horrible situation for agencies or anyone to be doing to our communities. they are here, they are living it, they are breathing it, pay attention to them. listen to them, they are the ones that should be controlling the narrative about what happened, not some agency. >> coming up, donald trump can't seems to get wrong desantis out of his head. >> he called him rhonda sanctimonious, meatball ron, then he called him what? ron disliked is. why doesn't he just call him what i call him? >> his latest attack on the florida governor and why some say trump's only hurting himself. we will be right back. ight back. ♪♪ allergies don't have to be scary. (screaming) defeat allergy headaches fast

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is again going on the offensive against the man many say is his biggest threat to securing the 2024 republican primary nomination. florida governor ron desantis. on social media yesterday trump ripped desantis for the crowd size at an event he spoke at in this week. calling it, quote, small and unenthusiastic. he also blasted fox news for covering the event while

ignoring a recent rally of his own. in a second post trump unveiled a new nickname for desantis. ron desanctus >> come on, that is the boston red sox have you -- >> apparently it is not gloomy meatball, maple was anti-definition. >> may fall is not going to be used in this way. >> why was that? why was he not using meatball ron? >> first of all, joe would you let's talk about your experience at the miami international airport? >> no, i really would not. >> i would just like to say for you, thank you, ron desantis. >> obviously, willie, when we go to the miami international airport it is horrible.

and, we say thanks ron desantis it is a joke, the whole conceit of the joke, that people would, during covid people would go to the piggly wiggly and there would be four brands of spaghetti but not five. and they would look into their phone and go thanks, joe biden. so, the whole conceit of it is of course it is not rand rhonda santos's fault that all the escalators in the miami international airport do not work. nothing works there. that is not his fault but ways say it, making light of the people who had blame joe biden for only four brands of spaghetti sauce instead of five post covid. we got a letter, an official letter from a florida official explaining to us that it was

not really rhonda santa's's fault. >> but he could do something, for the record. >> no, no, no, and that is little joke, and it is the joke, i am sitting there thinking. so, brooke tamil, and did rick tam linda have somebody else send us and i love a lamp letter? ? the anyway, very funny. donald trump went on to praise charlie crist. went on to praise charlie crist in the truth social thing. and so, i am sort of of all thing. i grow, i have all of and grow and i am doing it today, and, while desantis is not in the race if donald trump keeps attacking him on small and stupid things like this it actually makes donald trump look more desperate every, single day. so, desantis not responding

when he is not an announced candidate actually looks like a pretty good play because trump can't even, he goes from the sanctimonious, to meatball ron, to desantis. i mean, come on! so, that is not even good. >> he is not even trying, he is not even trying. >> no, it is like he is work shopping and public, i want you to worship in private and then come to us and decide. one could argue that putting zip thing on truth social is basically doing it in private. >> you make a good point, john, you make a good point. >> joe makes a good point, donald trump is worried about the upstart, he is worried about governor desantis who is in staten island, minister of philadelphia and chicago to talk about crime. which is strange for governor of florida unless you are going to run for president, that it

makes more sense. he does, of all of the people so far he is flirting with or getting into the race like nikki haley it is rhonda santos who is most on the mind of donald trump. >> and this is what you do if desantis is somebody or trying to elevate, that is opposite of what trump should be trying to do. desantis is the guy they are worried about, they say the anti trump movement is coalescing around desantis at least for now, now could that change? could desantis's support fall as he steps onto the national stage? all of that is possible, but, right now desantis is the guy and from more trump lashes out it looks panicky, it looks like he is trying to short-circuit him. >> it makes desantis more of the guy, it just sort of makes trump as if he is narrowing down the race to one on one. and, as we discussed on the show frequently the best thing that could happen for trump's if it was a large field. he should be attacking a bunch of folks not just desantis, and not elevate him. >> coming up, house publicans

hold a field hearing on the southern border, nbc news correspondent was there and tells us what this could signal about the gop's efforts to oust homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas. >> while doing absolutely nothing to fix the immigration crisis. crisis unlimited card. earning on my favorite soup. aaaaaah. got it. earn big with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. (psst psst) ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good. sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. (psst psst) with caplyta, there's a chance to let the light shine through. and light tomorrow, with the hope from today. this is a chance to let in the lyte.

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she dish or publicans or holding a meeting today near the southern border in arizona to address the immigration crisis. it comes after how speaker kevin mccarthy along with several other republican lawmakers made a visit to the border last week to sound the alarm and slammed the biden administration's border policies. citing drug trafficking, national security, and the humanitarian crisis as migrant encounters out the southern border are made high. joining us now from arizona is nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali with more.

ali? >> micah, yeah, this is one of the first field hearings that we are seeing from this house traditionary committee and it is not entirely surprising but they are here, at the border, in nova, arizona. this is quickly becoming a very big focus of the house republican majority. but not from i will just laid a perspective. they are doing one-time across and republicans both have done for many years, now. which is coming to the border to highlight the crisis. doing it through a somewhat partisan lens, each side choosing the issues that they would like to focus on as part of this crisis. and then taking those issues back to d.c.. i mean, look no further than the fact that this is a meeting of the judiciary committee where only republicans will be in attendance at this hearing. democrats through scheduling issues and other things say they will do their own trip in the coming weeks. but, look, it underscores the reality on capitol hill that even as this issue is so persistent, and so agreed upon

by both sides there is a crisis here. something needs to be done, there is little to no agreement on what that something is. certainly in a divided congress that is not likely to change. the other reason we felt it was important to come with this specific lawmakers is the chairman of this committee really represents the tip of the spear and what we are expecting to see as a push to oust secretary mayorkas from the department of homeland security. they have already been pushes to say he should be impeached because of the high numbers and images we see at the southern border over the course of the last year. now that republicans are in the majority in the house they are going to continue to push that narrative. i do think it is important to underscore that this is an issue that regularly excites the republican base. we often talk about it, here, on this show and on our network. about how important it is to republicans to keep their base engaged. but, from a legislating perspective -- >> nbc's ali vitali, thank you

very much, live in arizona, what do you think? >> it is a really important point that she brought up, first of all, this has been a political issue for republicans for years. we always see right before elections we see them talking around certain networks about caravans coming out. and, of course, just the stupid comments about leprosy is going to be brought in to america, and there is going to be a leprosy epidemic. and, every day we are seeing stories about this. and it rises, rises, rises. the election comes, the republicans lose, and the next day nothing else is said. they have been doing this since 2016 and losing elections every year since 2017. so, it is critical to understand this is not a winning issue for republicans unless you are in a district where you are winning by 60, 70%. probably speed feeds the base,

maybe get some contributors out there. but, here is the bigger issue. right now, the fact that republicans are going to the border, and they are holding these hearings, and they are not willing to do anything legislatively to actually have this pass, that just shows it is more governing by gesture. >> coming up, with mortgage interest rates on the rise, the secretary marcia fudge will join us to discuss the biden administration's new plan to help lower costs for home buyers. we will be right back. right back. especially at night? try vicks sinex for instant relief that lasts up to 12 hours. vicks sinex targets congestion at the source, relieving nasal congestion and sinus pressure by reducing swelling in the sinuses. try vicks sinex. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor.

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to move from the biden white house that could have an impact on the housing market here in the united states. the administration has just announced a program announcing relief to eligible home buyers and home owners from rising mortgage insurance costs. the program is expected to benefit 850,000 families this year alone. with an average savings of $800 per year. secretary fudge joins us now with the exclusive details. it is great to have you on the show this morning, this program sounds really promising. if you could explain more, madam secretary, on how this will help future homeowners and current homeowners. >> i am happy to, thank you so

much for having me. what we know is that as prices have continued to rise over the last few years, fewer and fewer people are buying homes. and, so what we thought the president and vice president said, look, everybody tries to find a way that we can relieve some of the financial burden people are facing every day. so, it came to us that person's who are not able to put down at least 20% on a mortgage are charged with a mortgage insurance premium. that premium knowing you are from $100 a month to 1500 dollars a month. it depends based upon the cost of the home. so, that maybe just enough to keep them from purchasing a home. we said, well, why are we doing this? we already have, in reserves the loss is five times what congress had assets to home. so, we said let's get it back to the people. let's find a way to help new homeowners, new home buyers, people of color, freshen ration

homeowners get a chance at the american dream. that is what we're doing today, we have to reduce that amount. >> i am curious, you are going to reduce that amount because only numbers i am looking at, i still think a lot of people will be locked out of the process. is it going to be enough money to help people get into homes? >> absolutely, when you consider the fact that in times of difficulty like we are facing now, economically, most people turned the federal government. as aj underwrites the mortgages of almost, i mean, new mortgages, 80% of our new mortgages our first time home buyers. we have lots of programs. this is just one in addition to what we are already doing. we believe that it will encourage people to purchase new homes. >> land, how will it do that? especially given the interest rates that people are facing right now and the prices of a home or even getting an apartment, buying a small home?

given the multiple challenges that they're facing record, what exactly are they seeing what this new program that will help them be able to make that move? >> i would suggest you two things, one is that ransomware is so high it is probably less expensive to purchase than it is to rent. because, most people who can pay their rent can clearly pay a mortgage. what we are trying to do is, on the front and, assist them with getting into a new mortgage. a first time home buyer especially needs help. if we can save them anywhere from 100, $800 a year up to 1500 dollars a year that is significant. because, the margins are so small for first time home buyers. we know if we reduce this by 30 percentage points and reduced to uplift people can't afford it, it makes a world of difference for those who are just barely getting by. >> secretary fudge, good

morning, it is great to have you back with us. i am just looking at the homeownership rate of the last couple of years and it looks like they have gone up across racial demographic groups. actually, more among black and hispanic homeowners then even among white homeowners. to what do you attribute that? that more people, lately, just in the last few years are able to buy homes? obviously the interest rates were low for a long time and have gone up since. but, what else is going, on there? >> we are making sure that people who have student debt no longer are treated unfairly. it was our practice at f age a in underwriting that if you had student loan debt it was weighted much higher than any other kind. who has student loan debt? black people, brown people, poor people. we made that, we made an equal or neutralized for every single person. we also said that for people who had been deemed on creditworthy, which many of

them are first-time buyers, people of color, or poor. they will say you have no credit because you do not have any real credit. we are in our underwriting now saying if you have a positive rental history, that is good credit for us. so, we make them creditworthy. we, as well, our system with a number of other things. but those are the two big ones. >> that was hud's secretary marcia fudge. that does it for us on morning joe weekend this saturday morning. >> do we need to go? >> you need to go get me more coffee. there is a long day ahead of us, morning joe is back live on monday at six a.m.. and a wonderful rest of the weekend. weekend. >> welcome to war in ukraine one year later.

a morning