good to be with you. i'm katy tur, if you're going to run against donald trump, people have got to know who you are. for ron desantis, that's meant exploiting the culture war, pushing policies intended to

inflame and divide. stuff that's gotten press. stuff that's gotten his name out there. just having a great idea and getting a great direction doesn't mean you're going to be successful an influential gop donor told ali vitali. you've got to bring people together and get them to buy into what's going on. so far it appears to be working. desantis is decidedly trumpian politics have turned a once swing state into a deep red incubator for conservative policy. and it's made him a gop star. back in november, desantis won reelection by a margin of nearly 20%. all while as nbc news points out, imposing restrictions on classroom education and vaccine mandates, that infuriated progressives. the question on everyone's lips is when is he going to announce, and when he does, can someone

seen as a more competent donald trump have the same success as the original. the divisive policies worked in florida, yes, but can they work nationally or to butcher the words of shakespeare, would a trump by any other name back the white house. joining me now is nbc news capitol hill correspondent, ali vitali, and coauthor of "play book," eugene daniels, also an msnbc political contributor. ali, is it fair to ask this shadow campaign, this prelude to an announcement is just desantis trying to be a better trump than trump? >> maybe, but he's going to have to be if he wants to be in the primary at all. drawing the differentiations is going to be hard. he doesn't want to alienate the maga base, and also has to show why he's a better choice for voters. frankly it's something that not just ron desantis is going to have to grapple with, but mike

pence, nikki haley, mike pompeo, they're going to have to have an argument for why they're running against him. that's going to be hard. florida is being by desantis as an incubator. that's how he plans to do it. he's going to start going on a bookstore. book comes out tomorrow. we have seen him making stops across the country. basically he's trying to stay in the national conversation without yet officially announcing why he wants to be a national name. >> we sat down with fox news yesterday, eugene, let's play a little bit of that. >> from western pennsylvania, my mother's from northeastern ohio, so that is like steel country. that is like blue collar salt of the earth, and if you know, mark, florida is eclectic, people from all over. we have a culture. i grew up in that culture but really it was kind of those rust belt values that raised me. >> he's not just a florida guy, eugene. you guys are the "politico" are saying this is desantis showing

where he might go if he announces a campaign. >> yeah, he is going to try and get back into those roots, talk about, you know, middle america, all of those things that republicans kind of eat up and have been eating up for a long time. we saw former president trump as you well know a billionaire from york, kind of exploit those exact same ideas. ali is right about how he tries to thread the needle on being trump but not being trump, how he does that, i'll say i have been talking to a lot of republican operatives and a lot of people are banking on him to be the person to take on trump head on. he has not seemed to be interested in that, every time he talks about donald trump or talks about this race, he tries to not hit trump head on. he's not done the nikki haley even wink and nod where she talked about, you know, needing new blood in this, but i will say as the governor in a state that he's taken on the culture wars, he's been this cultural warrior as it were, the

difference between him and these other governors is that he has actually taken those culture wars and turned it into policy, right? he's not talking about health care policy, economic policy, he's talking about, today he tweeted out how he's taking on disney, and those kinds of things. that is something that others won't be able to say. he's taken the culture wars and implemented the tools of the state in order to fight those questions. >> he's gotten all of the bills passed, with basically a rubber stamp legislation down in florida. we're going to get to whether that translates in a second. you mentioned nikki haley get in the race and talking about needing new blood in so many words. ali vitale, you sat down with mike pence, and all of the headlines about the interview were about how mike pence was throwing donald trump under the bus. let's play a sound byte, i know you have one. i'm going to play one from the interview and ask you a question on the other side. >> we're going to be discerning about it.

i have a sense we'll have a clear idea in the spring. >> implicit saying you're considering running, you could be a different president if not a better president than your former boss. can you delineate one policy difference you might have with him? >> i think the times call for different leadership, and i'm confident we'll have better choices. >> and you're thinking about being one? >> than my old running mate come 2024. >> have you talked to him lately? >> i have not. >> all right. so ali, the question i have is does mike pence, does nikki haley, do they know something about donald trump's vulnerability here that we do not? >> well, look, they're probably hearing what i hear, what you hear, what eugene probably hears when we go to these conservative cattle calls and talk to republican voters, there is a concern among people who like trump that maybe there's just too much baggage at this point,

that even though they acknowledge in their view that it's, you know, the deep state tagging him with controversy even though we know that january 6th and other things are very real things that the doj and others are investigating, there is that view that maybe desantis can be trump without trump, or, you know, for pence, is he able to carry the trump/pence mantle just as pence. there's open questions about whether or not that's going to work. you saw there, he wasn't eager and he didn't delineate even one policy difference. instead, he talked about things like respect returning to politics, civility returning to politics. those were digs at trump, clearly, but it wasn't on the policy front. i mean, ukraine could be one of those things that becomes a pinch point within this republican primary once we actually get into it. i think most of the campaigns i talk to are aware of the fact that trump still commands 20 to 30% of the conservatives who will vote in a primary, and their job at this point is to appeal to the rest of them while also maybe peeling off some of

those who feel that trump has too much baggage. the bigger the field is and many people have talked about this, some candidates like larry hogan say it's part of the calculus, the more it's diluted and helps trump. >> i want to put the polling up that as the race currently, i'm going to put it in quote, currently stands with how people poll, you see that donald trump and ron desantis are clear in the lead there. trump himself is clear in the lead. the question is if ron desantis is able to pull this out, really give donald trump a run for his money, say he announces, say he wins the primaries and is the gop nominee, is donald trump by another name, by ron desantis is a winnable candidate in 2024, eugene and i ask this, it's complicated, because the last reelection cycles, the maga style candidate, the trump style candidate, if they have been in competitive races have lost, and joe biden is probably going to run again.

first lady said so over the weekend. so is desantis as trump winnable? >> yeah, you know, we don't know the answer to that. but i will say the evidence shows that maybe that's not the case, right? it shows that in these places where the election really takes place, right, the suburban districts in places that are already on the thin margins and congressional districts that that's where this is going to come down to, it's going to continue to come down to, and that hasn't really worked out. ali is right when she talks about people that see these vulnerables for donald trump. if those may exist for ron desantis or whoever is going to be the maga candidate, if they decide to take on that mantle, we'll say if you piss off in this primary that's coming soon, the maga folks, they may not vote. they may just not stand by. there were a lot of people coming to politics or interested in politics because they had a voice and a person in donald

trump that we saw. and we also don't know if donald trump is to lose the primary and not get the nomination, what he would do. so much depends on if he follows what the chair of the rnc, ronna mcdaniels says they should do, support the nominee, it's possible that they may not do that. there's nothing in his past that tells us he's going to take a backseat, as he loses this nomination, that is going to tell us a lot more about whoever comes out of the primary is going to be able to take on joe biden, and get support outside of the republican electorate to win a general election. >> talk about how far we have come in the past few years. it reminded me of a quainter time in 2015 when i first interviewed donald trump, what are you going to do if you piss off other leaders and he was so appalled that i used the term piss off, and we watch what happens after that, the words that came out of his mouth. anyway, guys, ali vitale, eugene daniels, remember when.

thank you very much. and turning now to walterboro, south carolina, where alec murdaugh's brother has taken the stand. last week we saw murdaugh testify himself in his own defense. today the judge ruled jurors will get a chance to see the crime scene for themselves before they start deliberating. joining me now from the courthouse is nbc news correspondent catie beck. so, catie, why did the judge decide to let the jurors go to the dog kennels. >> reporter: it was a surprising decision. this judge has ruled more in favor of the prosecution motions in in this case than the defense, and this morning the defense making the argument that the jury should see spatially what this crime scene looks like. they have not really presented through the evidence we have seen a clear picture of how these two bodies were sort of situated near these kennels. and the judge heard it out. he said, we could take them there.

we could secure the scene. they could get an idea of spatially where everything was. it hasn't been presented properly in court. the prosecution strenuously objected, there's no need for this, we don't think this is a good idea. but the judge said i feel if they want to do this, i'll order it, and the jury can go there. they'll be heading to the 1700 acre hunting property, sort of like a jury field trip, and they'll get to see exactly where the grizzly crimes occurred, you know, if that helps them in their deliberation, is yet to be seen. >> it was a risky move by all accounts for alec murdaugh to take the stand last week in his own defense, and he was on for so many hours. do we have any indication of how the jurors responded? >> reporter: so it is risky, katy, and it's rare. we hardly ever see a defendant in a murder trial take the stand in their own defense. this person has made inconsistent statements over a long period of time. they were able to bring in the financial crime allegations and

other evidence. it does complicate things for him to take the stand. but i will say this, the first day on direct examination was a very emotional day in the courtroom. there was a lot of crying from alec murdaugh, a lot of details offered about his relationship with his son and with his wife, and we did see jurors respond to go that. i at one point saw a juror sitting sort of close to him in the witness box slide a box of tissues in his direction. another one sort of offering a bottle of water when he asked for a drink, so there were some signs of empathy among jurors that day. the very next day was the more hard-hitting day for the prosecution, the cross-examination where he did get backed into a couple of corners, hard to provide some answers, and i think their whole theme of that line of questioning was to show that this person has lied repeatedly and easily to lots of people. how the jury interprets his behavior that day may be a little bit of a shift from day one, but they have certainly seen sort of the full range

there on the stand, and, you know, it really is a toss up whether it helped or not. it depends on what they believed and what they felt. like i said, i do think there were strong feelings of empathy on that first day. alec murdaugh has expressed a lot of emotion in this trial. we have seen him crying throughout at that defense table. it wasn't as though the water works on the stand were different than others days. he has certainly been an emotional person throughout. >> that's a really fascinating case. catie beck, thank you very much. and coming up, a group of amateur voter fraud hunters are being sued in federal court. what they are accused of doing. plus, federal agents went door to door in east palestine, ohio, what they're telling residents who are complaining about unusual symptoms. first up, though, the department of energy and the fbi say they have a low degree of confidence that covid started in a lab. what exactly do you see low degree mean? and why it might not be what you expect. and why it might not be what you expect

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chinese officials are accusing the u.s. of spreading disinformation for publicly warning that china may help arm russia against ukraine. national security adviser jake sullivan told nbc news there would be real costs for china if they provided lethal support, including economic alienation, and cia director bill burns told cbs news there is no foreign leader who's watched vladimir putin's experience in ukraine more carefully than xi jinping. >> we're confident that the chinese leadership is considering the provision of lethal equipment. we also don't see that a final decision has been made yet, and we don't see evidence of actual shipments of lethal equipment. and that's why i think secretary blinken and the president have thought it important to make very clear what the consequences of that would be. >> nbc news pentagon

correspondent, courtney kube, we have seen this over and over again. it feels like the move the u.s. made ahead of the invasion of ukraine, publicly they expect russia to do this, even saying the date. do they believe that they can turn things around with china by going out publicly and saying this. they weren't able to do it with russia. what is the belief internally about the way that they can influence shy jinping. >> there is this hope, according to -- among administration officials that by putting this information out before a decision is made as we heard from director burns there, that they will influence the decision and keep them from doing something. so there have actually been cases according to the administration officials where they believe they have been successful here. you mentioned the intelligence that was released before the russian invasion of ukraine. it did not stop the invasion. but the u.s. has put out other information that may have deterred. in the case of iran, they were

open about the fact that they realize iran was providing russia with lethal drones. they have been devastating in ukraine, and effective and deadly in ukraine. they warned they were concerned iran may be considering ballistic missiles to russia. we have not seen that happen yet. another case was actually with china, so you'll remember very early on, very soon after the invasion, there was a concern that china was considering helping russia in some way in the war in ukraine. the u.s. at very high levels had conversations, for months they believed were effective. until recently, we started hearing more and more that china may be pushing the limits and moving closer and closer with providing nonlethal military aid. initially the belief was that it was coming from chinese companies, not necessarily the government, but then, according to officials who we had just been speak to go recently, we believe it is, in fact, the chinese government that may be providing some of the nonlethal aid and they are worried about

the potential for lethal. we have to point out, catie, there is still no indication that they have made the decision. i have been asking the question over and over, i'm sure that a lot of other reporters are as well. there's no indication that any of this lethal equipment has made its way to russia or they've made the decision, but it's something that when the administration puts out this information, the hope is they will deter the behavior. it's only a matter of time to see whether it actually works in this case as well, catie. >> courtney kube at the pentagon, thank you very much. the department of energy is out with a new report that the covid-19 pandemic most likely started in a wuhan lab leak but the department made that assessment with low confidence, according to two sources with direct knowledge. what does that mean? joining me is justice correspondent ken dilanian, i think it's important to explain the terminology and what the intelligence community means

when they say low confidence? >> absolutely, katy. low confidence means there's significant questions about the plausibility or credibility of the information and/or concerns about the sourcing. so it's about as low as you can get in terms of intelligence reporting. you may ask why even write it if you have low confident and the answer here is because policy makers were demanding that intelligence agencies take a position on this. so you have the fbi, when this officially -- this assessment initially was published in the fall of 2021, the fbi found with moderate confidence that covid probably did emerge from a lab leak. four other agencies found with low confidence that it probably emerged in nation, and got into humans through animal transmission, and three were undecided. now we have the energy department weighing in with low confidence on the side and a lab leak. what this tells you is none of these agencies really have any good hard information to prove the case either way. and there are strong pieces of evidence on both sides, for a lab leak, this was one of the

only places in the world doing this kind of very specific research on coronavirus, including dangerous research, making them more contagious. lab accidents have happened in the past. the u.s. government found three employees at that lab were ill. they have not been able to talk to any of them. on the other side, animal to human transition of viruses, the most common way they get into the population. most scientists believe that's the way it went. china covered up the evidence at the lab and other places, we may never know the full answer. >> and certainly not cooperating with the world health organization who would help do the investigation, which would help do the investigation. ken dilanian, thank you very much. and coming up, what a band of voter fraud hunters did to georgia's election system. first, though, tucker carlson says he was given 44,000 hours of security footage from january 6th. now, a group of news organizations including nbc news

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of all the things that january 6th was, it was definitely not a violent terrorist attack. it wasn't an insurrection. when are they going to admit there was no insurrection? never. so fbi operatives were organizing the attack on the

capitol on january 6th, according to government documents. >> tucker carlson who produced an entire special along with all of that, arguing there was never an insurrection on january 6th, arguing it was a false flag, has access to all the raw security footage from the capitol that day, some 44,000 hours of tape, he says, given to him by the new republican speaker of the hours. nbc news and other outlets are writing to speaker mccarthy saying if you're going to give it to him, tucker carlson, what you call the interest of transparency, give it to us too. joining me now is senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake and "new york times" political correspondent jeremy peters. so kevin mccarthy so far not responding, responding by not responding. but if he's making the argument this is sunshine, the public has a right to see all of this footage, why not give it to other news outlets so the entire public can see the entirety of the footage.

>> reporter: it's one of the questions i and other reporters have for the speaker. i spent a half hour outside his office trying to get an answer to the question. both mccarthy and his staff have been impossible to pin down on this. the best we've gotten is one comment that mccarthy made to the "new york times" saying that he was asked about these tapes and that he thinks it's, you know, sunshine transparency to get them out there. as you say, it is impossible to square the idea that you're doing this for transparency's sake, and to make this information only available to one news program, one program on one network with one very well defined point of view about what happened that day. you know, if you want to make all of this available more broadly, that's a different conversation. one mccarthy has been unwilling to have. >> it's not like he gave it to fox news. he gave it to tucker carlson, a specific person on fox news. i want to play a little bit of that "documentary" that i mentioned at the top to

underscore who this person is that mccarthy gave that material. >> false flags have happened in this country. one of which may have been january 6th. ♪ his truth is marching on ♪ >> so jeremy, should we expect that now that he has all of that surveillance footage that he's going to say, oh, wait, i was wrong, here's the evidence to prove otherwise or he might do something else with it? >> i won't count on it. i have to say i find a number of things about mccarthy's choice curious. tucker and mccarthy don't have the coziest of relationships. tucker was someone mildly encouraging the revolt against mccarthy which almost cost him his speakership, and i think what mccarthy is doing here is, you know, playing to his base. that much should be obvious.

i think people on both sides get criticized for talking to their bases too much, but in this case, i really think it's showing what an echo chamber of the marjorie taylor greene and lauren boeberts he feels responsible to. does he want to relitigate the events of january 6th? we saw what happened in the last midterm elections when democracy quite literally was on the ballot for a lot of voters, and guess what, they turned republicans out. so i think, like i don't know what they think they're going to find on these tapes, january 6th insurrection is playing in the speaker's lobby, but what could they possibly expect to find that's going to be exonerating or that will somehow kind of wipe away this stain on our country's history? so why he's doing this is quite curious. >> he's also fundraising off of it.

he's got an e-mail out, patriots, you deserve the facts, i promised i would give you the truth regarding january 6th, and now i'm delivering. he's using it to get money, garrett. >> reporter: yeah, katy, absolutely, and i think the answer to jeremy's question is this is part of the bargain mccarthy had to make with his base. one of the first reactions i saw anywhere to this news that mccarthy made the tapes available to tucker carlson is marjorie taylor greene, this is why she stood by mccarthy in the speakership fight, echoed by donald trump jr. saying this was weeks in the making a process to get this information out. there is a portion of the party that firmly does believe there's something nefarious about january 6th that isn't widely known. they want to push this stuff out here. as jeremy pointed out, it's been a loser electorally, at least it was in the last midterm. mccarthy is too far in the arrangement to see it through, and put this information out there. >> jeremy, there's another fox

story out today, and this has to do with the dominion lawsuit. howie kertz tweeted over the weekend, and commented about how fox said he wasn't allowed to cover the suit. even though he should. there's a media reporter. move on.org said fox rejected a commercial they had that showed how laura ingram and tucker carlson felt about the allegations that the election was stolen. what else are we expecting from this lawsuit? >> so today is a pretty big day for this case. around 5:00, we expect to get more documents, katy, that will show more of the internal communications going on behind the scenes at fox news in the days and weeks after the election, and the big piece we're expecting is what rupert murdoch said in his deposition. this last batch of documents that we saw.

murdoch's deposition had not happened at the time they were written. what we have seen in this last batch was fox executives, hosts, saying one thing on the air, and another thing privately, and what they were saying privately was sidney powell is nuts, rudy giuliani will never practice law again, and i can't believe that our viewers believe this stuff. what rupert murdoch says about that will go a long way toward proving whether or not dominion voting systems has a case for defamation. and they're suing fox right now for $1.6 billion to that effect. >> we'll watch for the document to see what's in it and potentially what rupert murdoch is saying in his deposition. how concerned is fox news internally? it would seem they would be somewhat concerned if they're not letting howie talk about it. >> this poses grave jeopardy, $1.6 billion is nothing to squeeze at, even a company

potential liquid as fox is. more importantly, this case has the opportunity to deliver the kind of verdict and judgment on the big lie, on, you know, the corrosion of our democratic values that we saw over the four years of donald trump's presidency, one that has eluded trump's opponents through two impeachments, a special counsel, and numerous local and state investigations. if fox news is held liable for defamation, for spreading and disseminating the big lie, which legal experts tell me is a real possibility, because it's a very strong case, then you would finally have this holding to account of the trump world that you haven't seen before. >> jeremy peters, garrett haake, gentlemen, thank you very much, and on the subject of disinformation, nbc news has an exclusive report on what's happening in georgia. amateur voter fraud hunters challenged 92,000 georgia voter registrations last year using voter rolls, public records,

door-to-door canvassing and hours of their own time to ferret out voter fraud. a group is suing them, claiming it was a coordinated effort to discriminate and intimidate. joining me now is jane tim who got access to data about scores of challenges. and vaughn hillyard who has been on our election integrity beat in the field. so first off, explain what they're doing by saying that this was a coordinated effort to discriminate and intimidate these challenges? >> the lawsuit focuses on a massive voter challenge of more than 364,000 challenges back in 2021. what's continued is this 92,000, and these are individuals, sort of private citizens who have taken it upon themselves to go in and try and challenge their peers' voting rights. going through the public records, as you said, digging

into the neighborhood address books, and driving around their neighborhood to try and dig into this. >> this is organic, a bunch of people saying individually that i want to go challenge this because i don't think my neighbor, joe, over here has a right to vote. >> a lot of them are working on their own and coming as citizens to challenge voting rights. the vast majority of challenges are unsuccessful. but they're nonetheless burying election workers in a bureaucrat nightmare. >> you saw armed guards around the ballot boxes look to go question whoever might be coming to drop off their ballots. i guess looking for what, exactly? >> let's be clear, this is all happening in realtime still, just because i'm not standing next to the desert yelling about this from the mountain tops, doesn't mean this is not all playing out in realtime. kari lake, you remember her?

running for governor, lost by 17,000 votes, she's appealing her election loss after an appellate court ruled yet again, the election was fair, accurate, and she, in fact, lost. that is what they're about to oppose. when you look at the legislature -- >> it's burdensome for the taxpayer. not just i want to send a lawsuit out. there's consequences here. >> consequences in the legislature is also still going through this, going back to 2020, just last week, one of the legislative committees in the senate, in the arizona senate, held a hearing in which this supposed witness, an insurance agent came forward and testified for more than 45 minutes about this grand conspiracy about how mexican drug cartel funneled money to the likes of adrian fontes, katie hobbs, to rig the election. in the testimony quote, witness information provided in october 2020 confirms that more than 100,000 filled in ballots and

more than $13 million were identified in two unmarked rental vans. that was from a witness. why does that matter? 2.4 million individuals have watched this video on twitter alone in the last four days. kari lake, she re-tweeted the video. who is going to be the ronald reagan dinner featured speaker friday night in washington, d.c. at cpac? kari lake. millions of americans believe there's a pattern of rigged elections and all of this is playing out today. >> and they're being led by the hand by a lot of politicians currently in office. >> absolutely. who do things like change the laws in georgia to say you can make an unlimited number of voter challenges, which is exactly what georgia voters have done, motivated by calls like this, motivated by false conspiracy theories about our elections, that it's going to real election workers whose job it is to sort through the mess. >> thank you, guys, sorry the subject is not so wonderful,

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to door to make sure the residents of east palestine have what they need to address their concerns. since the train derailment, people have been diagnosed with a variety of medical conditions associated with chemical exposure. and there are worries that the risks could extend beyond east palestine as hazardous waste collected from the site is being shipped to other cities across the united states. nbc news's george solis has the latest. >> well, the big news today is that the epa announcing that norfolk southern can resume disposal operations of hazardous material from the derailment site after announcing a pause in operations after officials in michigan and texas announced they were blind sided by the arrival of some of the material to sites in their states. so the epa announcing two new sites here in ohio. one in east liverpool, the other in vickery where some of this material and waste water will go to. at the derailment site, the ohio epa announcing they are going to install wells to test for

further ground water contamination. in town, residents still skeptical, still worried about the long-term impacts of this derailment. many of them complaining of some of the same symptoms we've heard from day one, saying they are getting rashes, headaches, runny noses, things their doctors cannot explain. federal officials are announcing they will be holding daily press conferences to keep residents up to date about some of the clean up efforts and any other concerns residents bring up over the course of the day. meanwhile, not today, but on any given day what you'll find here in town is residents helping out one another, many of them giving out food and bottled water to each other, just to provide some comfort and some hope as they await further accountability. back to you. >> george solis, thank you very much. and the biden administration's new strategy to increase access to affordable child care means new strings attached to the nearly $40 billion in federal funding freed up for the semiconductor

industry by the c.h.i.p.s act. tomorrow, the commerce department is set to announce that any manufacturer seeking a piece of that money will need to provide affordable high quality child care for its workers. joining me now is "new york times" white house correspondent jim tankersley, so jim, this was a bit of a surprise? >> yeah, sort of a new thing for the federal government to do to put a string like this to money that is meant to be industrial policy to build out the semiconductor industry in the united states. >> so what do they have to do to meet the child requirement to get this money? >> it's flexible. they have to work with commerce officials to come up with a plan, and basically make sure workers have access to child care that's affordable, high quality, that's available in places where there often isn't a lot of it. judge big where these chip makers are looking to locate new plants. that could mean a lot of things. that could mean building on site day care facilities like toyota has at some of its manufacturing

facilities. it could also mean simply sponsoring slots at day care providers or giving vouchers. >> a lot more women, do you have an idea which states, it's clear which companies want this money. which states are going to benefit the most? >> big investments announced in arizona, ohio, central new york, the syracuse area, so those are places with unique -- texas also -- with unique child care challenges, each of them, in syracuse, there's a massive under supply of child care slots. just not enough to go around for the demand. in phoenix, it's very expensive. it could be almost a fifth of the workers salary for a construction or manufacturing worker to do day care for a year, so in all of these places where the investments are lining up, this is a big problem, and particularly for women seeking entrance into the work force. >> it's interesting because

child care and parental leave have long been campaign issues. they have talked about it in this administration, and other democrats have talked about it a lot. it has not happened beyond the federal government in congress. is this a way for the white house to get around that? to say that in some respect they are living up to the promise that they made on the campaign trail? >> a little bit. i mean, it's certainly not going to go nearly as far as what the president's, you know, national child care agenda would have done. this is a way to sort of take the successes of the biden economic agenda so far, which have mostly been things, physical things, infrastructure and manufacturing, and attempt to use them to leverage at least small down payments in the people, investments that biden has been able to get through congress thus far. >> jim tankersley, thank you very much for joining us on this story. and coming up, what did dilbert do? what did dilbert do y'all wayfair's got just what you need for your home. do they have stylish beds at great prices?

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you. hundreds of publishers are cutting ties with "dilbert's" creator. emilie ikeda has more. >> reporter: dilbert, the syndicated com fick strip that is poked fun at workplace culture. >> are we sticking with our ban

on useless readings? >> yes. >> just checking. >> reporter: tons y of newspape are wiping t their cartoon afte the creator labeled black people a hate group during a rant on the show? >> the best advice i would give to white people is get the hell away from black people. i'm going to back off from being helpful, because it doesn't seem so help. >> it's since labeled a hate slogand by the antidefamation league. the company that send indicates dilbert, it was bush did i adam'swa views. and others are denouncing the comments asin racist and discriminatory. we are not a home for those who espouse racism. just how sweeping do you think the fallout will be?

>> i'm waiting to see. newspapers have an opportunity right now to show who they want to talk to in this country, who they feel should be represented in this country? >> while reckoning with the rapid fallout and follow-up livestreams, adams-u accused th media of taking his comments out ofak context. >> the context is far too many black americans have a negative opinion of white americans. >> this isn't the first time a newspaper has pulled the plug on his work. even the cartoonist admits a comeback from this controversy is hard to draw up. >> my reputation for the rest of my life is destroyed. >> emilyikeda, nbc news. that's it for me today.

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