it's 4:00 in new york. happy monday. at one point a $6 billion lawsuit by the dominion voting systems against -- it may also be the emergency brake on willful dishonesty in right-wing cable but it's already changed our understanding of what already lies, in a request for

summary judgment of a massive ought yen of viewers, a past logical fear of a ratings defeat and witches ease brew against in a network's own working journalists and fact checkers. we should tell you at any moment we're expecting breaking news in the form of fresh filens from dominion and fox, to lay out any arguments in the case. while we wait, for years we have turned to phrases lie "inside the bubble" and "the echo chamber" to describe that relationship between fox news and its viewers. never before has it been so plain to see from the outside. the discovery filings show that fox hosts were telling their viewers what they knew they

wanted to here even when the very same fox news host communicated the truth to one another in private, which was different from what they were broadcasting. dominion's case may very well wrest on their ability to get a jury to understand that distinction. today, though, the story goes even further in the form of something rare. a highly visible internal dissent. here's something fox news viewers were exposed to yesterday, perhaps for the first time. >> some of you have been asking why i'm not covering the dominion lawsuit, and it's absolutely a fair question. i believe i should be covering it. it's a major media story, but the company has decided that as part of the organization being sued, i can't talk or write about it, at least for now. i strongly disagree with that decision. as an employee, i have to abide by it. >> an extraordinary moment, an actual bursting of the bubble.

that was host howard kurtz, revealing that the company has instructed him to not cover it. it was probably a remarkable behind the scenes back and forth for him to even say that on the air. it is another instance of fox actively and publicly keeping its viewers in the dark, shielding the viewers from truth they might find objectionable. recent attempts to break through have failed. since recently, the network rejected a national primetime advertisement from the progressive group move on, which simply showed what hosts were saying in private. whether or not the dominion lawsuit succeeds in court, the american people have already won something important. it's where we start today, with some of our favorite reporters

and friends. former senator claire mccaskill is here. also joining us editor at yar at "the bulwark. just charlie sikes is back. jason is ban back, an msnbc contributor and npr media correspondent, david fulcrum is back. sit start with you, david. fox is, if nothing else, most like the republican party in its ability to fall in line and remain dis planned when under attack. that seems to be holding so far. what's your sense of the dynamic? >> there's a feel they're under siege with a $1.6 billion lawsuit, which is a real legal threat, and legal peril. there's also periods of having essentially, you know, the rock is lifted and we're able to see

what peel say, often about one another, about what they're putting on the air. it conveys oftentimes a -- people taking aim at one indiana side fox, but also conveys a degree of contemp for their belief appeared the willness for their ounce views to hear the truth. it's not simply, as would be true for mid major employer, embarrassing for private communication to come to light. it's deeply more fits for people internally to have people to realize the contingent tempt they realize that they put on the air to propagate what current out to been lies and baseless claims.

but they save their most vicious attack foss their own. i've never seen such vittry roll in the exchange between sean hannity, laura ingraham and -- that is their own fact checker. how is that sort of cancer either being contained or eradiated or left to flourish, and do you have any idea what it is? is what you're see is panic. when fox was any sort of there is panic that they are going to lose. the core trump voter, which in

many ways is the core fog viewer. people are peeling away from newsmax which never -- to oen, to even trump anxiety about where will people go instead of us? i think at one point tucker carlson calls it, in a text to sean hannity, vandalism, what they did. they talk about the damage to brand. meanwhile, you're seeing people like suzanne scott, the chief executive of fox news, not articulating a journalistic regime or some notion of discipline, but do it care film and calmly. she's essentially saying i have to manage all these ego maniacs who are stars in primetime. they have no further control

like roger ailes used to. she is trying to manage, so when journalist are are publicly affecting, you're seeing them being call the upon to be fired and some of these ultimately pull down their tweets, because it's enraging the people who make it so profitable and possible. i think something something revealatory in its their own words, when you read in the sedition trials, you see through the -- different aspect, but you

see the same apparatus, make some that nobody breaks pace, nobody blowing the cover. there was in moment in july of 2018, i couldn't get over. i played it like four times it happened. it's trump saying the quiet part out loud, don't believe what you see, don't believe what you hear, believe me. watch. >> just remember, what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening. i'll tell you, i have so many people, because we have to make our country truly great again. >> this was a mission statement

i will give claire and jason time to respond if they think it's unfair. i think it was too successful that wases always intended for the left that was never a right/left argument. it was an assault on the truth. i wonder if you think the truth has enough time now to put the toothpaste back in the tube. >> you've used the words bubble and echo chamber, what donald trump was talking about was creating an alternative reality silo that would be absolutely impenetrable. that's what a lot of the folks at fox think and hope they have done. david used a crucial term, that

there's real panic at took, because what you're seeing there is, at the same time, real contempt for their own listeners and viewers, but also fear of those listeners and viewers. what happened was that the audience had in fact captured fox news, because thefted it to be a safe space. they wanted an alternative reality. they did not want anything that challenged their priors. there was this sense, my goodness, are our viewers going to go to somebody who will feed them the more intense maga crack? so we have to follow them, and even if we are lying to them, we need to do that, because we cannot possibly lose them i think we've seen the

acselluation in that cliff, where frankly it's different to reach with real information. that's what's at stake. will the hermetically sealed silos be held accountable finally for the lie? or will they just motor on, figuring their audience will never seen these stories, will never understand how much they hate them, or won't care that these are lies. there's big stakes. i think we'll lever -- in answer to your question, we'll letter a lout from the outcome of this lawsuit. >> i think even in the outcome, claire, there will be examples what we've been talking about. we do not have a single event, and because i worked in government on 9/11, sometimes that's a touchstone i can come

back. i don't know that there's one experience that can be experienced as one. there may be, but you live in a place where people exist in both hermetically -- i would argue that left and the truth are not porous at all. i don't know very many political active liberals who aren't acutely aware of the news story. there's one silo in the country, the other one takes in the truth, takes in the arguments being made by their side and they're acutely aware of what's hatching on the right. my question for you is, we now know have the evidence that more people died in trump voting counties in america from covid because of all the disinformation, much of it propagated from the hermetically sealed silo chamber about the veeck, masking, herman cain

dropped dead after being at a gathering. there is no state that's safe from the fear of mass shootings and gun violence. yet there's no movement on the right to do anything about it. do you see any event on the horizon that could puncture what charlie has described as this hermetically sealed information silo? >> there's a few issues. you know sports teams sometimes can do it. i just went through a health care in my family and for the first time i can remember on twitter, everyone was kind, even the ones who typically sea horrible things to me. there's a few areas where we go back to the norms but it's really startling, if you slow it down, you have something called

a news organization, a news organization that is the number one money maker for them, is saying fire the fact checker. i mean, that's startling in the united states of america. i know in my state, when i have encounters with people who are totally taken in by what trump did, whenever i calmly try to get them to a place of agreement on something that is plain as the note on my face, you know what they say? fake news. face news. that is the two-word response to anything that is presented to this hardened group of people that fox depends on to make a lot of money. so, you know, fox -- roger ailes said we're going to wander off

the path and we're going to make money, because we're going to try to appeal to a certain audience philosophically in america. they wandered a bit off the path, but they could still see the path. they wandered further and it began to get overgrown and all of a sudden the path was not so visible. now they are in the thick underbrush and they are lost. they have no guideposts other than telling they people exactly what they want to hear, facts bedamned. it's a sad commentary on what has happened to what something that they like to call themselves, a news organization. >> jason, what is interesting to me, too as an ex-republican, and as someone in the cable news business actually is when this happened. norm ate fox news, i think they achieved 12r50rd success appeared broke every record

during eight year of a democratic administration when president obama was in office. it is when they fine-tuned the race baiting and the birtherism and all abhorrent and their ratings soared. so claire's description is right. the network sauce the path, and there's an opportunity when a democratic president is elected for that network to soar again. it couldn't seize the opportunity. having once been a rep republican, that's demonstrates how much that network has changed and shifted. it does not exist to give this favorable grievance-rid 89 right-wing take on the events. it exists to inthe things that are not true. >> nicolle, when you're wagging the dog, you don't know which end, but this is like a three-tailed dog. is fox influencing the public?

is fox beholden to the maga crowd? is fox beholding to the republican party or the republican party beholden to them? what we know is we have a certain section of the country that doesn't care about the truth, doesn't care about the accountability and will actively lie. as important as it is that fox is but sued i also have to fork cuss on their audience, on people who watch these shows every night and aware of the fact they're being lied to. nicolle, this is a perfect example when we talk about covid. i cannot imagine a scenario where there was an investigation and they had screen shots of text messages, with you and rachel, lawrence and joy lying about covid, right? like no one watching msnbc would be okay with that. a responsible network would

demand their anchors and host apologize for such behavior, right? even the audience would demand it or the news organization would demand it, and none of those things are happening with fox. that's what we have to be honest when i talk about how republicans operate, when i talk about holding people accountable, you have been wait red-handed the way you have been caught, but your viewers don't change, and the one person who shows a smidgen of bravery is still basically hand-tied on the scene, we have an ossifyed group that is against truth. you have to find ways to maneuver the way around. >> i can see you, but the viewer can't. the new filing has come through.

are you able to characterize how much we have, who's -- is it in the new t of depositions? can you tell us anything about the new filings? >> sure. i was indeed stealing a glance here and some -- will have to abandon you in a also while for that very reason. we're real you through the counter-filings in which each side got to argue that the judge should recognize their case was so strong that the case should be dismissed. similarly dominion is making the rather audacious claim that a trial doesn't even need to be held. so they're now filing motions trying to address each other's -- but from my

perspective, they pull together some -- that he they were formulating the first major motions, for example, you have the depositions -- sworn answers under oath from rue pertain murdoch, the creator of fox. he had been deposed, but you also have paul ryan, is on the board of directors of fox corp, fox news' parent company. you're seeing that the lawyers d. and dominion's side, they're presenting through what -- they're presenting what evidence -- they're presenting ruper murdoch, you know -- and now a major corporate official, major adviser to lachland

murdoch, and it's important to correct when it's done incorrectly, something that fox has not done to this day, correct the number of times in prominent ways they did this wrong. separately, paul ryan said at corporate board meetings in mid november of 2020, just days after the election, and in the heat of moments where lou dobbs, maria bartiromo are presenting claims that are pretty crazy in the moment, paul ryan saiding this an inflection point, he said to the board and to other board members, this is something that needs to be corrected. we need to not be presenting false information to the public about an issue of such import to the nation as a whole. so you're seeing dominion marshaling evidence to make its case this is not something with a renegade figure like lou dobbs, who was dumped the next

year, or maria bartiromo who rupert murdoch continues to call a commentator, though at the time she is was classified as a news reporter, and then didn't do anything to intercede, as chief executive officers were saying we have to manage our relationship with our viewers and our talent. this is a pretty interesting argument in these filings. >> david, let me follow up on what i just heard you say. what you're describing is an argument that has its parallels in iconic legal cases that have become akin to a knowing faultihood, the are responsibility and you're going beyond news executives, you're taking it deep into the

corporate structure, as you said, the high-ranks corporate officials. paul reian is on its board. rupert murdoch is obviously on charge, and dominion is mount ago narrative that suggests that they all knew that the information was bad and it could be dangerous? >> look, rupert murdoch says he's a journalist and likes to be involved. it's hard for him to concurrently say that and for them to marshal all these matters, and to say i have nothing to do with what decisions they make, therefore i can't possibly interview. even if i would have liked the news channel to correct the mistakes that we saw made. he was pretty, what shall i say, unclouded on the accuracy of some of the stuff being put out there. you know, as we talked about last week, he as one point

suggested that the three top stars of prime time, maybe they should get together and talk to the folks that the evidence for this fraud claim just isn't there. he suggested that, but we never saw them get together, and we haven't since. they have acknowledged it in a sense by moving on. so this is a case where, you know, every filings cements to give dominion more accelerant. you talk about willful disregard, that's kind of the classic standard from the 164 supreme court case involves "new york times." either they did this hurtful and defamatory claims knowingly, or they did so with willful disregard of the facts.

dominion has documented that people within fox has said this stuff isn't true. >> so, david, we were lucky to get you on the front end of this drop. i'm going to ask you, claire and jason and charlie, can tell you with the hotel california, you can check out, if you never leave. if you come acrossening, wave year arms. thank you. we, for our part, we're going to continue to pore through this very large document. we'll share it with all our guests and try to bring some legal guests online. there's another story in the same vein to tell you about. george santos, how they're getting on the offense on the broader topic of lying, and ties as many republicans they can to

a disgraced known liar, who continues to lie, who republicans knew was a liar. we'll talk to the member of the democratic caucus helps to share the message, and. the congressman who has spent the better pa -- over thousands of hi text and phone records, rebuked by a federal judge. the very latest in that ballots and more when "deadline: white house" continues. don't go anywhere today. it's one of those days. continus don't go anywhere today. it's one of those days

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charlie and jason. a brand-new filing was made today by dominion, called an answering brief. david did a good job of explaining it to us non-lawyers. it's more in the sworn testimony of rupert murdoch, there's others in this new filing if says, while fox does argue at time neutrally without endorsing invite lying about dominion, the report demonstrates the opposite. the hosts repeatedly endorsed the stolen likes. question -- you are aware now that fox did more than simply post these guests and give them a phone call. answer from rupert march talk -- i think you have er from rupert - i think you have

. >> answer -- no, some of our commentators were endorsing it question -- about their endorse metropolitan? answer -- yes. they endorsed. rupert murdoch's deposition. the filing goes on to say, there you have it, foxcorp chairman rupert murdoch admitted under

oath that the host of the accused fox shows endorsed this idea of a stolen election. jason johnson, you're nodding your head. i don't have words yet. i'm not shocked. it's so disinagainous. >> it's shocking to read it in black and white. it's like, we're not crazy. they knew it was b.s., too. built barr knew it. they all knew it was a lie. >> right, right. to throw all of this on lou dobbs, no, no, he was the ohm outliars, and it's disingenuous, it wasn't our hosts, bur our guests and comment tailors, your hosts were bringing those people on, while texting to others that

they're nut jobs, and everything else. i don't know how legally fox can get out of this, but i think it's very, very telling to me, again, nicolle, as we were just talking, it's not going to change a thing how they operate unless they get hit with fines or penalties. >> what i keep thinking we only know this, because -- has more rights than the zelenskyy government of ukraine. >> in this case. dominion has the right -- defamed. >> we've got to be glad of that. what you are reading and what we

are hearing over the last ten minutes or so is devastating. >> we talked about this beforehand, and he said, look, i talk about my role on foxcorp but not my deposition or about the dominion lawsuit in any case. i pressed him on the question of what is your responsibility, he hasn't done that. wrote an open let to him, saying, you know, paul, if there's any moment you're going to step up, this would be it. now it turns out that, at least in private, as a member of the

board, he raised the question of his fiduciary responsibility to push back against these lies. we're not just talking about text messages and e-mails, but a member of the board of directors, talking about his legal fiduciary responsibility to push back on the lies being peddled by this corporation in real time. rupert me talk acknowledging that people that he and his company put on the air, engaged in this kind of deception, this kind of ladder libel is devastating, which was never strong in the first place, but this is a remarkable moment. i will be interested to hear what the legal experts about this, because, at least in my experience, it is very rare to get sworn testimony from the ceo of a corporation and from a member of the board of directors

that is so useful 2309 people filing the lawsuit for the plaintiffs in this case. we're scrambling the jets to get some lawyers on, but let me probe this area. i think it's disgusting that paul ryan didn't see democracy as a victim, didn't see his own party and voters being wasted and sort of cannibalized in service of this big -- you know, what the right did, when they left, and descended the escalator made us feel like witches and kooks that's appalling, charlie so, if the

overt racism attacks on democracy and disinformation that is causing people to die, if that's not a red line, what is it? if this is not a time to speak out, when would you do it. i think it was a rather tense exchange, and now we're getting a bit more information, that he was able to raise it on the board, but you're right, at some point if you want to be a thought leader, if you want to be a political leader, if you want to put yourself forward as somebody who is saying we need to reject this deception, at some point you need to say this in public.

you need to lay your job on the like. the check i get is just not worth it. it is just not worth it to do that. i think a lot of people will have red faces after this. >> claire, when there's a bullying incident in a school, the bully isn't the only one that gets suspended. anyone who saw it gets suspended. robert port man saw it, mitch mcconnell did more than nothing, he's in for trump 2024. a fox poll shows that he's mostly the nominee. what is the potential for $1.6 billion lawsuit to change anything? >> first, let me explain about this pleading. one side, after you do some discovery, then one side says we want a summary judgment. our evidence is so strong, we want the judge to say, you win

just by the evidence you have compiled. the other side says or evidence is so strong, you have to dismiss this kay without a trial. that's a motion to dismiss. that's what these two sets of pleadings are. they're the countering arguments for, yes, we have enough for a summary judgment, or no, we have enough for you to dismiss the case on the part of fox. the problem fox has is that dominion has gathered a lot of damning information about what the facts were. now, here's the interesting thing that rupert me talk is doing. he's trying to say these were commentators. in other words, this was opinion. let me just make sure -- here's what a lawyer would do to the jury. an opinion is saying russia had the right to declare war against ukraine. lying is saying there's no war in ukraine. opinion is saying donald trump was a good president. lying is saying the election was

fraudulent. they not only still have maria what's her name still on the air still, they were putting sydney powell on the air after they all said she was a fraud and liar. they were putting her out there as if she was credible. so, it is really, i think a stretch for ruper murdoch to hide -- this is not called fox opinions, it's called fox news, and commutators do have the right to goo a little further, but it is not -- they don't have the right to lie. they have the right to opinion. there's a big difference between those two. it looks like dominion is on the path of proving that distinction very, very well. >> that's a great way to sort of help us process this filing. we should say what has come out is the dominion argument in this back and forth, we haven't pore through the response, we will as

soon as it's out, but it is important. i have to say there's so much latitude around opinion. i think a war is never the answer. i think donald trump was indifferent to the lives and safety of all americans, but i believe donald trump is still president because the election was rigged. even that, if you have reason to believe it's true, maybe. but they had 3600 incoming e-mails, calls and letters from tony fratto and others who were received and acknowledged by fox news employ geez, prominent on-air figures, so there was a closed-circuit between the truth, and a rejection of the -- in their own words. the same way all five of us did. so we have to platform the people we know are lying to our viewers, because we're afraid they'll go to newsmax. it's an extraordinary case that's been assembled.

it's of extreme import, and there's no one better to talk about it than the three of you. thank you for getting us there an hour we thought would be different. when we come back, we'll switch gears a bit. house speaker kevin mccarthy as pitched hi wagon to a band of con artists and liars, including one who has been lying before he was even in office. how democrats make sure exactly who the republican party is next. party is next for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal.

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♪ yes. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ democrats in congress are going on the offense against what is call the flock of frauds terse. at the top of that list, congressman george santos. today the campaign committee says it's targeting five vulnerable members for eagerly taking santos' shady money. all fife have since called for him to resign. for more on that frauds terr in kevin mccarthy's caucus or flock, we're joined with eric swalwell. claire is still with us. take me aside, in light of the

store all area, the broader effort to make sure they aren't spinning anymore, they outright willfully lie to go their own voters. >> nicolle, this is the biggest case is, are you kidding me, that you're going to continue to allow george santos to hang around congress because, what, you're so obsessed with denying women to make their own, is that what these really about? because, to me, just a regular guy, it looks like you're allowing one of the greatest scam artists to stay in congress, because you think that's the only way to achieve those outcomes. yeah, we're going to let them have it, like mike lawler, who barely won, you know, in the hudson valley, and we're going

to let his constituents know they are harboring a wanted international criminal. it's up to them, not the democrats, to put a motion on the floor. santos has confessed to this, and he's laughing about it, actually trying to lean in with it by sitting at the end of the row at the state of the union to own the lib and shake the hand of the president, because he thinking he's invince able, because kevin mccarthy needs him for his corrupt bargains. >> what's going to me is that you seem to have under leader jeffries, and maybe it's some of the free times to work can -- there seems to be a shortened cycle. santos is a clown. but more importantly it will seem in the democrats' estimation, he's a massive

criminal liability in real time. tell me more about the effort to win back the majority. >> actually, we thought it was santos a couple weeks ago, but this is a broader issue in the republican conference. we learned that ana paula luna out of the tampa area, barely beat lind, she's claimed all along she's jewish. turns out she's not and her great-grandfather fought for the redistricted district. he's been claiming all along that he's an economist. the guy starts every congressional hearing with "as an economist," dot, dot, dot. turns out not an economist. said that he was a police officer. turns out was never a police officer. and so we have to make sure, you know, that they own, as i said, this flock of fraudsters who make up the corrupt bargain that

kevin mccarthy relies on to hold a job but not actually the position of speaker. >> i want to bring claire mccaskill in. >> congressman, i am interested in -- you mentioned -- >> hi, claire. >> hi. how are you? >> you mentioned the other members who have taken on some of the trump characteristics of lying as part of the job. so putting those aside for a minute, it looks like tofrom a distance that the faces of the republican party in the house of representatives are in fact now santos. he gets more air time than any member of congress. now these other folks that have been lying about who they are and what they've done. and then you have marjorie taylor greene, who -- and matt gaetz, who are the stars of the show. do you sense any panic within normal republican ranks about the fact that these folks are now the most visible members of

the republican party for the united states of america? >> yes, senator. and you see there's panic because the voters are fleeing them. in every election in the midterms they lost from kari lake to dr. oz to herschel walker they lost. and that's why i think republicans, the responsible ones are recognizing that this is not a pathway to victory. but they continue as i said to allow it to persist. and kevin mccarthy does not have the integrity to say this is not who this body is going to be made up of. sure, there are embellishments from time to time in any organization, in any profession. but once you start lying about, you know, what your religion was, whether you even went to college, or, you know, what your prior professions were, that seems to be outside the bounds. and if you're not going to, pell those members, then you're just

harboring scam artists. and that's -- as i said, that's the glue that holds together the republican conference today. >> i mean, and to your point, congressman, to turn the wheel over to the people that he he turned it over to who so brazenly went on the airwaves, fox news of all places, and said there's nothing left to ask for, we've exploited him so fully and completely there's nothing left. how does that impact the body? >> we're seeing week by week that now kevin mccarthy has to pay a new installment on that corrupt bargain. right? so last week the installment was to give tucker carlson unfettered access to police footage, sensitive police footage of the capitol on january 6th. there's no good ending to that. it's either going on used to distort what happened on january 6th by tucker carlson or you just gave the proudest boy of all a blueprint for the capitol that, you know, who knows where that will land for the next

insurrection that could be be planned. so you're going to see more and more installment payments by kevin mccarthy. one of them will also be to defund the troops. he promised that he would cut the defense spending as we're helping ukraine he getting ready to prevent china from going into taiwan and of course our own needs to, you know, pay for the troops. they're going to cut $75 billion in funding for the defense department because that's a part of this bargain. so every week there's going to be a new installment and it's not going to help the country. it's not going to help anyone who wants to see gas and grocery costs come down. it's not going to help a woman who wants to have more rights about her own body. it's just going to be about keeping kevin mccarthy in power. >> i wanted to make sure you didn't mishear you. did you just call tucker carlson the proudest boy of all? >> yes. >> are you associating him with them on purpose? say more. >> what is different than -- going back to your last segment. about fox and what they did to distort the truth around the 2020 election. tucker carlson aligned himself

completely with the same motivations and beliefs that groups like, you know, the oath keepers and the proud boys had. which was to not accept the results of the 2020 election, to foment, you know, lies that would lead to violence. so yes, i lump them all together and this lawsuit by dominion, you know, seems to validate that. >> claire, i want to come back to the lawsuit and again, i think our viewers know we're scrambling the jets to bring in some lawyers. i want to put you on the spot, congressman. but what the clear is the lens the democrats would like the whole country -- not just democrats but republicans as well who are still open to the facts as they exist over here on earth one to see, is that they can do better than what this version of the republican party has put forward. and i think claire, you and i are relics, right? from an era when you could disagree about stuff, lots of stuff, big stuff, but you by and large shared facts. i think what the dominion

lawsuit lays bare, what the congressman's describing about kevin mccarthy being behold into the lowest element of his caucus, the people who went on tv and bragged about breaking him to give him the votes to become speaker, have no interest in associating anything the republican party is with the truth. >> i think not only, nicolle, are we from a different era in terms of, yeah, disagreeing be on big stuff but agreeing on facts, you know the other thing we agreed on were values. and that's really what happened to the republican party. it used to be a really bad thing to lie. lying as running for office or while you're in office, if you were caught, you were in big trouble. they have consciously decided that they would embrace a leader that lying was part of his

platform. it is how he behaved in his personal life, in his professional life, and in his political life. he was a big fat liar. and they all were fine with it. so they now have a value, and fox news is part of this, they have a value of lying that is much different than republicans used to have. and you know, mitt romney can confront santos in the aisle of the house and say you don't belong here and susan collins can have her moments, but by and large the leaders of the republican party now embrace the value of lying. >> that will have to be the perfect last word here. congressman eric swalwell, thank you for joining us. claire mccaskill, thank you for spending the hour with us. i am one of those people who saw what your family went through on twitter, and i'm so grateful that things have taken a positive turn. we love you so much and we're sending all of our love to your sweet grandson. >> thank you. >> up next for us, what the courts are saying about the more than 2,000 e-mails and texts

belonging to gop congressman scott perry. the justice department is very interested in them. that story is next after a very short break. don't go anywhere today. y short break. don't go anywhere today. a ballet studio, an architecture firm... and homemade barbeque sauce. they're called 'small businesses.' but to the people who build them there's nothing 'small' about them. that's why at t-mobile for business... you'll save more than $1,000 versus verizon. and with price lock guarantee, we'll never raise your rate plan. so you can keep your focus on toe-turns and making sure the sauce is extra spicy. at t-mobile, there are no small businesses. ♪♪

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everybody agrees, every single american agrees, even the guy that wants to be speaker agrees that washington is broken. washington -- and he said as much in one of his most recent correspondences. interestingly enough, over the 14 years that he's been in leadership he's done almost virtually nothing to change it. we took an offer to him last

night with things that are completely and wholly within his purview. completely and wholly within his purview. and he rejected it summarily. if he wants to accept the offer we're happy to join the discussion. but he hasn't accepted the offer. >> hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. there's a reason we showed you that. in order to win the speakership kevin mccarthy chose to double down on them and their desires and their delusions and their fantasies and their feteishes. they're the most extreme members of his own party. most of them sought pardons. members like that man who was talking. his name is scott perry. he's from pennsylvania. he played a huge role in the ex-president's attempt to hold on to power after he was defeated by joe biden in 2020. perry while he was a sitting congressman took such an active role in the former president's coup plot he is now und jer scrutiny for it. of keen interest to the january 6th investigators was perry's instrumental role in the campaign to overthrow the

leadership, decapitate the leadership at doj and install an environmental attorney known as jeffrey clark as trump's attorney general because clark was willing to go along with it and to use doj to overthrow the election result by heeding what we know was trump's call, because it's in writing, to just declare the election corrupt. to say that doj had found evidence of voter fraud, which we all now know, even bill barr knew and told trump, was bull -- for its part doj has since then seized congressman perry's phone. it happened back in august. as part of the criminal investigation into the effort by trump and others to overturn the 2020 election result. but the fbi has been unable to review its contents because perry is saying that he's protected by the constitution's speech or debate clause. if it sounds familiar, it's because pence is using that too. here's the twist.

an extraordinary court ruling back from december that was just last night unsalad. we hear a warning we've heard before in the so far failed efforts to hold trump or any of his powerful allies accountable. and that is this. concern about creating two separate and unequal standards of justice in america. in this case the creation of, a, quote, super citizen held to a different standard under the law. that extraordinary rebuke was just unsealed late friday where u.s. district court chief judge beryl howell takes direct aim at perry's arguments. she writes this. "what is plain is that the cause does not shield representative perry's random musings with random individuals touting expertise in cybersecurity or political discussions with attorneys from a presidential campaign or with state legislators concerning hearings before them about possible local election fraud or actions they could take to challenge election results in pennsylvania." the "washington post" reports on this development, "howell warned

that accepting perry's astonishing view that the lawmakers are protected not only from questioning but also from even disclosing records in the first place would turn members of congress into, quote, supercitizens, immune from investigative scrutiny, criminal or civil liability and political accountability." judge howell said that 2055, or 90% of the records perry tried to keep secret, do not fall under that clause. at this moment as we come on the air there's a stay on howell's ruling and it remains in place as an appeals court is debating this very issue. gaining access to perry's phone would be a major development, a big win for special counsel jack smith's investigation, a probe which according to brand new reporting in the "wall street journal" is heating up and reaching advanced stages. they point to a flurry of aggressive steps in recent weeks like subpoenaing trump's former vice president mike pence and former chief of staff mark meadows.

the latest developments in the special counsel's investigation amid a judge's warning of the creation of a, quote, supercitizen are another way of saying two separate standards of justice is where we begin the hour. "washington post" congressional investigations reporter jackie alemany is back. plus former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst glenn kirschner's here. former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman, who has left the table but is still very much with us. and former fbi counterintelligence agent pete strzok. pete, what is it on the phones, what do they want on the phones that doesn't fall into -- it sounds like what the judge is saying is that most of what is relevant to the investigation doesn't by any stretch fall under this ridiculous claim that the congressman's making. so what do they want on the phone? >> well, they want evidence of what he was doing with regard to january 6th. and it seems that the body of material includes e-mail messages, includes text messages, includes attachments. and in particular from the reporting that we've seen it relates primarily to the fake

elector schemes. and within that there are two bodies. you know, what was going on in his discussions with various state officials and others about what they might do. and certainly there's prior reporting that what has been disclosed are communications he had with people like jeffrey clark, with john eastman and others. so at the end of the day what investigators want to see is how much people were aware of what they were doing, any sort of knowledge or intent that what they was doing was wrong or against the law, whether or not people were cautioning that something shouldn't be done or not to do something or that if something were to be done to say it one way or not the other. so you want two main things out of this, nicolle. you want to know what was occurring, the sort of events as they took place and transpired, and then you also want to see as best you can from these very private and close conversations what people were thinking behind the things they were doing. >> glenn, let me show you what pete's talking about. these are the categories as the judge has deemed of what's on

perry's phone. so they're documents that fall under the category of the congressman's contacts with colleagues about legislation and votes, which her decision is that those should remain shielded. right? how are we going to vote on infrastructure? speaks for itself, i guess. but shielded. internal freedom caucus deliberations. how crazy are we going to get? those can stay secret. but here's what's not shielded according to the judge. internal house gop newsletters, not shielded. perry's personal media strategy. that that even is a category is something. not shielded. and contacts with colleagues about 2020 election not shielded. it seems, glenn, that the third could really be be a bonanza in terms of telling the story of the conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election results from inside the house of representatives. >> you know, nicolle, i think a lot of this could end up being some pretty blockbuster stuff with respect to these

communications. i've gone through the report. it not surprisingly is full of lots and lots of redactions. so there is still a lot of information to come. but you know, if we connect some of the dots here, i think we always have to start with the fact that a federal judge, a magistrate judge in pennsylvania found probable cause that there was evidence of crime in n. scott perry's phone. once the phone was seized and it was imaged, the prosecutors made a copy of it, we need to remember that the prosecutors have never been able to look at it. what they did was they just handed it over to chief judge beryl howell for an in-camera review. the prosecutors still don't know what is in those messages. they gave representative perry an tount lodge his speech or debate clause privilege. and this is what i find so intriguing. representative perry in motions he filed with judge beryl howell said i believe that 2,219 of my

communications, e-mails, text messages as pete says, enjoy speech or debate privilege and the prosecutors should not be permitted to look at them. now, usually, nicolle, when we litigate issues, the prosecutors know what we're litigating. we know the universe of facts and evidence and information. so we can take a position about, you know, what our argument is on executive privilege. but the prosecutors knew nothing. they just gave it to beryl howell. and on her own without prosecutors ever having to argue anything she said, uh, no, representative perry. 2,055 of your messages do not enjoy speech or debate clause privilege. which is perhaps no surprise given perry asked for a pardon for his conduct on and around january 6th. are he we shocked that the 2,000-plus messages that beryl

howell said are not privileged really don't involve robust debate on legislation? >> i want to press you a little bit, glenn. what she seems to be saying -- and that's a great way for us to understand that she does know what's there. this is also from the post reporting. judge howell similarly rejected perry's bid to shield 930 messages involving executive branch officials finding it, quote, ironic that perry would turn the constitution's intended protection of lawmakers from executive branch interference into a legislative matters on its heads. by contrast, the judge wrote, perry's multipronged and proactive, per sxichbt protracted efforts to push executive branch officials to take more aggressive action over the 2020 election, quote, demonstrated that he welcomed rather than resisted and indeed initiated these communications. she's putting him into the sort of predatory position, if you will, that that clause exists to protect congress. he was the one reaching into the executive branch. is that the right way to understand what she's saying,

what she sees? >> i think that is right. and i think when these messages are revealed, and eventually i think they will be. so perhaps no time soon, because as you mentioned this is being contested in the d.c. federal circuit court of appeals. i do think that court, whether the three-judge panel or the ultimate enbanc full court resolution of this issue will go against perry. i think when they're revealed we may see precisely why perry felt the need to ask for a pardon. because this had nothing to do with legitimate legislative sphere as the supreme court cases say matters. this had to do with really a corruption of the process and an atmt to overturn, criminally overturn the results of an election. >> jackie, i can already hear trump's defense if he were ever to be held accountable, scott perry told me to do it. let me show you what we know about scott perry's role from

the 18-monthlong congressional probe into the january 6th insurrection and donald trump's broader effort to overturn his defeat in 2020. here's former congressman elaine luria on this program friday. >> it was central to the plan that they have a close ally in the department of justice. and they find this guy jeff clark. and scott perry and why encouraged him to be the person to introduce this person to this president a somewhat obscure unknown lawyer in the department of justice that has really no direct experience or a level of experience to take this proposed acting position. you know, what were all the wheels that were turning in the background that was, you know, identifying jeff clark and getting scott perry to be the one to walk him into the oval office to introduce him to the president and try to implicate him in this scheme. it feels like there had to be more and a wider plan. or scott perry came up with this on his own and is a much bigger

player than we've even anticipated. it's just a lot of unanswered questions there. >> i mean, jackie, it's the most sort of candid assessment of what the january 6th select committee presented us in terms of the coup plot atop doj. they presented everything she said. but it's true. and i remember even liz cheney teasing out some of the other characters, mr. cheeseboro and others who were dropped into doj for a minute to literally it would appear carry out this coup plot atop doj, which was adjacent to the election coup plot. what do you make of what we know that perry did, perry's knowledge that what he did may have well been criminal in his aggressive pursuit of a pardon, and where doj stands right now in cracking the phone? >> yeah, nicolle. well, the january 6th congressional committee did reveal quite a bit about scott perry's communications with the former president, the white house and other members of congress in plotting to try to

overturn the results of the election, which included crucially as elaine luria pointed out and the january 6th report really focused in on was perry personally recommending jeffrey clark to be installed as one of the top officials at the department of justice in order to help carry out the former president's plan to overturn the election results. you know, we don't quite know how much information the justice department and the special counsel's office has at this moment. they obviously do not have this full slate of the thousands of text messages that are currently under debate, but they have developed a ton of information around that and this litigation is not just important for scott perry and for the special counsel to get this key -- these key pieces of evidence to keep building the case as they move in on their final targets but

it's also important for setting some precedent for some others who are now claiming congressional immunity with the speech and debate clause. people like mike pence and, you know, experts in speech and debate clause litigation feel like this case will actually move through the courts fairly quickly. obviously with scott perry this has been a six-month back and forth. but with mike pence you had judge michael luttig, who is a regular on your show, in an op-ed in the "new york times" last week, this is a pence ally, mind you, warning that pence has gotten himself into a sticky situation by vowing to take this to the supreme court because he believes that it is a clear-cut case and that the courts will resolve this quickly against pence and didn't say perry but you could see this consistently applied across the board to witnesses who are trying to avoid testifying right now and

providing information to jack smith and the team. >> yeah, i want to peck up on that with you, harry. judge luttig as well as judge carter in california saw clear evidence of felonies. now you have judge -- this judge saying that we have -- >> beryl howell. >> yeah, beryl howell, saying we're at risk of creating super citizens. you have mark pomerance in a parallel track arguing the decision not to proceed with those kalss was creating a separate standard of justice. it is an echo, it is not a refrain but it's an echo in everyone who has been up close and personal with the evidence against trump and his closest allies. what do you make of that terminology and the argument she's making? >> all fair. look, the speech or debate clause is becoming the last refuge of scoundrels here. this is a funny issue where we know how it must come out and yet the courts are going to take their time articulating the actual standard. what's in those 22,000 e-mails?

this is perry instigating the plot to have a coup in the department of justice, lie in a letter that says we think something funky is there and trump says just do that, i'll take care of it myself. the entire top brass of the department of justice says we'll resign if you do this. only that made trump back off. if that's a crime, he is a clear co-conspirator. and that's what's on the phone. what howell found is 20,000 of these 22,000, this is him working it the way congressmen work it. he's calling trump. he's calling clark. he's making it happen. however, there's a small increment here that she says maybe this is genuine speech or debate and the genuine problem here and why pence has fastened on to it is the courts haven't developed it so well. we know it's got to be legislative action. and at the end of the day this can't be nor can pence's discussions with trump be.

but the court of appeals as glenn referred to it had the opinion, that was released friday, actually came out in december, and there was a hearing last week and two of the three members of the court were saying hmm, maybe howell is a little too broad to say almost any informal conversation with any third party doesn't get speech or debate protection. so the concrete risk now in the overall refrain of delay is that the court of appeals takes a little bit of time to figure out what should be the right standard, then remands it and we take many months to get to the point we already know that the courts have to come to, namely, when mike pence is talking with trump or when scott perry is plotting the overthrow of the department of justice that is not speech or debate. but the courts -- and here the court of appeals is being careful to articulate a line that you can draw in the future. and that is the actual concrete risk that this will take a lot

longer now till we actually have on our hands what's obviously going to be a treasure trove of inculpatory material by scott perry. >> i always sit through these conversations and my little brain, smaller than all of yours, goes to how ironic it is that these republicans who literally, you know, lifted their leg on the constitution and sought to overthrow a free and fair election are now like word googling some little words they can use to get out of protecting democracy. but that's probably just me. all right. i need you guys to stick around a little longer. i need all four of on the other big story that broke today. we are continuing to pore through that newly released filing in the dominion voting systems defamation lawsuit against fox news. it contains never-before-seen excerpts of extraordinary sworn testimony from among others rupert murdock including some incredible testimony about what fox anchors were thinking on the eve of january 6th. we'll get to more of that after the break. and later in the show, a heartbreaking glimpse into the

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returning to the news that broke just in the last hour, an answering brief filed today by dominion voting systems in their $1.6 billion lawsuit against fox news. it includes brand new details including testimony given under oath from among others rupert murdoch, the chairman of news corp., which owns fox news. here's a stunning excerpt from

this brand new filing. quote, "rupert understood that fox could do something about the false claims. indeed, he believed fox was, quote, uniquely positioned to state the message that the election was not stolen." on january 5th rupert and suzanne scott discussed whether sean hannity, tucker carlson and laura ingraham should say some version of the election is over and joe biden won. he, rupert murdoch, hoped those words, quote, would go a long way to stop the trump myth that the election was stolen. suzanne scott told rupert murdoch that, quote, privately they're all there but we need to be careful about using the shows and pissing off the viewers. so nobody made a statement. the next day was january 6th. wow. wow. jackie, glenn, harry and peter are all back. glenn, that gives me -- i am on a mission and our viewers know this to not be able to be shocked anymore by the depravity

on the right but i am not there yet. i am shocked by the depravity on the right, glenn. >> and let's look at what we're facing in this new legal filing. 200 pages which i have not yet read and absorbed, full disclosure, nicolle. but you know, this is dominion voting systems opposing fox's attempt to just get the indicates thrown out on what's called summary judgment. it's a fancy way of a party saying look, there's no genuine dispute as to any fact and i, fox, am entitled to a judgment based on the law, so why don't you just throw the indicates out. which if, you know, look at what you just read and look at how it just kind of takes our breath away, what was going on inside fox, and it was both the anchors and the executives. it really feels like it's not a question of -- well, this case will go to trial. the summary judgment motion by fox will be denied.

and it feels like it's not a question of whether dominion will win but how much fox will have to pay for defaming dominion voting systems. >> glenn, let me read this and ask you if it establishes what it seems to establish. this is more from the new filing by dominion. during trump's campaign rupert murdoch provided trump's son-in-law and senior adviser jared kushner with fox confidential information about he joe biden's ads along with debate strategy, providing kushner a preview of biden's ads before they were public. that is stunning. but on election night rupert would not help with the arizona call as rupert described it, quote, my friend jared kushner called me saying this is terrible and i could hear trump's voice in the background shouting. but rupert refused to budge. quote, and i said, well, the numbers are the numbers. by this point rupert knew no

fraud had occurred. is it fair to say you seriously doubted any claim of mass election fraud? rupert, oh, yes. question, and you seriously doubted it from the very beginning? answer, yes. i mean, we thought everything was on the up and up. i think that was shown when we announced arizona. glenn, is this a good fact or a bad fact that the chairman of news corp. knew beyond any reasonable doubt that the night that fox calls arizona, which i think is before anybody else, the election was over and there was no fraud? >> yeah. and you know, defamation can be challenging to prove because the first amendment, you know, free speech and freedom of the press protections are broad and sweeping, which is as it should be. but frankly, given what you just read, coupled with things like, you know, conversations between tucker carlson and laura ingraham about the fact that they knew the guests were lying and then tucker followed up with saying yeah, but our viewers

believe it, they believe those lies. lies about something as fundamental to the american people as their votes and their free and fair elections being reliable. it feels like we have blown right past recklessness and the proof that we are now seeing is making out intentional lies. dangerous and damaging lies. and then the only question after, you know, you're requirement to prove reckless or intentional lies in a defamation suit is did those lies result in reputational or financial damage to dominion voting systems? it feels like those questions answer themselves. >> jackie, there's something really interesting in here that i remember covering fervently around here. let me read this from their briefing, from the dominion brief. "rupert murdoch also called mitch mcconnell immediately after the election and thought it was probably true that during that call rupert murdoch asked

mcconnell to ask other senior republicans to refuse to endorse trump's conspiracy theories and baseless claims of fraud." i remember after the election was called talking to phil griffin, who was still the president of this network, and i think this was when rudy was standing in front of the landscaping place and dripping with hair dye and i said this is sideshow. the person endangering country right now is mitch mcconnell by letting him cry it out. and the fact that rupert murdoch asked mitch mcconnell to draw a line and not endorse the conspiracy theories and mitch mcconnell does not heed rupert murdoch's request is staggering. >> yeah, nicolle. i mean, these are very revealing documents that have come out in the discovery phase of this case. but you know, i think at the end of the day whatever the ultimate ruling is could have serious and important repercussions for disinformation and the disinformation crisis that has really gripped our society writ

large, that lots of factions of the republican party, even the factions that some people consider to be more moderate and less embracing, at least full-on embracing of a lot of the conspiracy theories, that have gripped a large chunk of the republican base, all of these findings are coming out, they're very interesting time as well. when tucker carlson sort of grip on the house gop conference and sort of republican policy making has also become increasingly clear, speaker kevin mccarthy gave tucker carlson access to the trove, the treasure chest of surveillance footage from january 6th, 2021, the attack on the capitol, much to the dismay and worry of people who worked on the january 6th committee and security experts across the board who fear that tucker's going to misuse and misrepresent a lot of this footage in order

to bolster a lot of the disinformation and conspiracy theories that came out of the insurrection. and so you can see how all of this, this perpetuation of election fraud and that the 2020 election was, you know, was won by donald trump has completely festered and bubbled into all of these new theories that are continuing -- continuously fed by these same figures who are now under intense legal scrutiny. >> harry, there is this feature, i don't know if it's in "people" or somewhere, that says celebrities they're just like you. and this t. shows celebrity moms with their sippy cup juggling all their kids' stuff. so i have the rudy version of this, right? so rupert is just like us. here's what he thinks of rudy giuliani. quote, the next day, november 7th, rupert told allen, the editor of the "new york post,"

quote, just saw rudy ranting. a terrible influence on donald. alan agreed responding that giuliani was unhinged, had been for a while. i think the booze has got to him. something redacted. trump should, quote, quit the conspiracy-addled talk of a stolen election. the president's aides have shown no evidence the election was stolen. it undermines faith in democracy, faith in the nation to push baseless conspiracies. get rudy giuliani off tv. i guess the difference is we didn't put rudy giuliani on tv but a lot of the people who are now facing jail sentences believed his, to quote rupert murdoch correctly, addled booze has gotten to him, conspiracy-add ld talk. what do we make of the disparagement of one of the main messages of the conspiracy theories that incited january 6th? this was on november 7th, two months later. >> yeah, well, they've just joined a large club there. but of course the big point is they put him on anyway. same in the filing, you have tucker carlson saying he knows

lindell is lying but he puts him on his show and doesn't do anything to challenge it. the big star of this filing, nicolle, is rupert murdoch. and i don't think this is going to help your quest to not be gobsmacked by what comes out. but check this out. you have murdoch, this is a really dangerous suit for them, and he's basically throwing reporter after reporter under the bus to try to protect fox as a corporation. so here is the killer i thought excerpt that jumped to me off the page. so you're aware that fox endorsed this false notion of a stolen election, right? "not fox. not fox. well, maybe lou dobbs or maybe maria as commentators." oh, so those guys. all right. we continue. "what about jeanine pirro? i guess so. lou dobbs? oh, a lot. fox's sean hannity. oh, a bit." one after another he's copping

to what creates liability, that they knowingly lie even though the whole corporation knows it's funny. and somehow trying to be preserve a little bit of credibility for fox itself, the kind of mother ship. this is a really killer document. as glenn says, there's no chance of summary judgment here. it's likely going to trial april 17th, likely going to a verdict if there's not a settlement in favor of dominion, and then it will come down to damages, which is a little bit trickier, i think, for dominion. >> pete, you have i think a unique perspective on the damage done by the lies peddled on fox news. and i just wonder as someone, as an investigator, as someone trained in getting information out of difficult places, i guess in the old days that used to be america's adversaries, what is it like to sort of turn the rocks over and see that they were all doing what we knew was damaging our democracy with the knowledge that what they were doing was in their own words,

quote, damaging democracy? >> nicolle, it strikes me they became essentially state media. they became the state media arm of the trump presidency. you have people saying we know what the truth is but we're not going to say it. we have people sharing with jared kushner biden campaign ads and strategy ahead of time. you have this guy shaw who used to be a white house staffer in charge of whatever they called it, the brand protection unit saying we can't tell the truth because we're going to take hit from the right. time and time again when i looked at state media in russia, in china, in north korea, when i grew up overseas in west africa and iran, when you look at state media they behave exactly the same way. we know what the truth is but the truth is irrelevant. we're going to say those things that advance the aims and the goals of the trump administration, even though the chief executive and all his star, you know, correspondents and announcers know the truth, we're going to ignore that, we're going to suppress it.

all to advance the trump agenda. that isn't journalism. that's propaganda. and it's shameful and it's disgusting and i'm sure it's going to get worse and it just turns my tom tok see so many people knew exactly what was going on and refused time and again to do the right thing. and they're going to pay for it i think. when it does get to jury we're going to see a massive, massive judgment that comes out against fox. >> yeah, i want to ask you o'all to -- i know you're spending more time with us than you planned to. i know that happens. but i need to turn this in one more direction while you're all with us. because again, this is only -- the gift that this lawsuit has given us is that the incredible pain and suffering that has taken place at dominion and i think the ceo has talked about the specific damage to his employees, the death threats, the damage to the company, you can tell this story to every institution that's been targeted. you can tell this story about ukraine. they lie about ukraine and bioweapons. you can tell the story about the

covid vaccine. you can tell the story about the damage done to our citizens and our democracy by knowingly lying to millions of -- they have a huge audience. so i want to make one more turn and ask all of you guys to stick around through one more break. don't go anywhere. we will all be right back. we wi. what do we do now? we live... ♪♪ save time and money with progressive's homequote explorer. what you do afterwards, is up to you. oh, whoa, i was actually just thinking i would take a nap. pretty tired. okay. love you. have a good day, behave yourself. like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot, a whole lot. we don't get to eat in the early morning. we just wait till we get to the school.

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anaheim? big time. more guacamole? i'm on a roll-ay. how about you? i'm just visiting. u.s. bank. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with retail banking in california by j.d. power. jackie, glenn, harry and peter are all back with us. glenn, we've poured through this. i have another little nugget to read to you. this is from this filing.

this is -- buckle up, everybody. rupert testified, quote, the man is on every night, he pays us a lot of money. at first you think it's comic and then you get bored and irritated. something redact. rupert murdoch confirmed that he could tell fox news network to stop running mike lindell's advertisements, quote, but i'm not about to. and when asked why fox continued to give a platform to lindell who continues to this day to spout lies about dominion, rupert murdoch agreed that, quote, it is not a red or blue, it is green. lindell brought and brings fox a lot of green. he also predictably brought the same lies about dominion to fox's viewers that had been peddled on fox's alternate reality machine for months. glenn. your thoughts. >> nicolle, can i borrow a phrase that you used before the break with peter when you talked about how he used to investigate

these sorts of matters? because i think it applies to fox based on what you just read. you said in the old days we used to go after, we used to investigate america's adversaries. and we still are. but america's adversaries are fox news. america's adversaries are members of congress like scott perry and marjorie taylor greene. america's adversaries are a former chief of staff to the president of the united states, mark meadows. america's adversaries include a former president who tried to overturn a presidential election. so in 2023 america's adversaries are largely americans. >> i mean, it's a really provocative statement. i want to stay with you on this, glenn. it does bear out. you can prove it out, right? and it's not our words. it's not you or me saying this, glenn. this is in the filing. they say rudy's deranged lies

are a danger to democracy. rupert says it with the editor of the "new york post." they say it amongst themselves privately. they acknowledge the threat of the lies of fraud privately. this gives great visibility into what drove liz cheney's furor. and she was furious with her party. she knew this was the inside conversation. if you could just stay with me on this idea of adversaries, do you believe they will be treated as such by doj? >> i sure hope so. because if not we are lost. i mean, without accountability for the folks who have tried to take down democracy, and that includes, you know, politicians and the ruling class, and it certainly includes fox news because when you have the rupert murdoch's and the tucker carlsons and the laura ingrahams knowingly peddling democracy-killingish v,

democracy-busting lies, to their viewers because as tucker says they believe us and you know, we're earning the green, how do you call them anything but america's adversaries? >> they are certainly, harry, democracy's adversaries. and i wonder your thoughts, if you think doj sees it that way and if they do if they're acting as if they see it that way? >> yes, i think they see it that way. and the proof of the pudding will be cases. but the case will be united states versus. these people will be on the other side of the v. and if they're not, as glenn says, it's a really rough patch for america to know how, you know, accountability will be -- you know, will be actually delivered. so you know, that is the kind of takeaway. but i want to just say the line -- i was really struck by what you said before the break,

nicolle. because it's a big offense in and of itself for media to lie and that's how it goes in defamation. but what's really happened again and again is trump or someone else tells lies and that engages the rage of his followers and people get killed and the constitution gets trampled. in other words, it's the lying that takes the next step, and that's essentially what happened on january 6th. so we're going after fox or dominion is for the lies themselves, but the broader lesson is what the lies eventuate and that is terrible damage to people and the democracy. >> well, and pete, the lies undergird the attack on speaker pelosi's husband. the lies undergird four shootings at the homes of democratic election officials. the lies are now one of the gravest radicalizers associated with domestic violent extremism in america. >> no, that's absolutely right. and you know, to harry's point

there is a through line that you can draw through these statements that were made on fox news by all these commentators, by the rudy giulianis, the lindells and everybody else that did lead to this sense of grievance and outrage that caused people to descend on the capitol on january 6th. and like you said, not just january 6th, attacks on paul pelosi, attacks against judges, attacks against people -- you know, an fbi field office in the midwest. all of these lies, all of these misstatements contribute to a sense of outrage, which isn't based on the truth but nevertheless is causing real world violence. and when we talk about fox, the question is it hasn't stopped. i mean, there are still concerns about the veracity of what they're broadcasting. how many homes they're broadcasting into. how many army mess halls are tuned to fox. how many offices at the j. edgar hoover building or the pentagon

or a ship at sea. how many still are tuned to fox as this sort of stuff is rebroadcast and intended to outrage and enrage people? because that's what drives the money. so it's a vicious cycle that i don't see ending. you know, i think all of us here hope that somehow the sanction frtz dominion lawsuit might by cause of the impact on fox's bottom line, might cause some behavioral change but if you tune in tonight i don't see much evidence that it's really toned back. >> and don't overlook the fact that those in my view crummy pillows, lumpy as all get out, are being peddled at the same viewers who are being polluted with knowing lies and disinformation. an unbelievable dump of inside information. no one would rather get through it with than all of you. jackie alemany, glenn kirschner, harry litman, pete strrz okay, thank you so much for spending the hour with us. shifting gears back to ukraine and the urgent dire need to help the children of that country who continue to suffer mentally and emotionally as russia's brutal war has now entered its second year.

we'll be right back. year we'll be right back. lomita feed is 101 years old.

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to all the chevy silverado owners out there. the adventurers and the doers. to everyone that works hard and plays hard. whether it's your first silverado or your tenth. thank you for making chevy silverado the #1 best-selling retail full-size pickup. just days after the start of the second year of the war in ukraine, russian troops continue their attacks on the front lines as well as through the air. vladimir putin's forces launched at least 14 drones at the capital city of kyiv and several other targets overnight that killed at least two people. the attacks were staggers to last throughout the night in an effort to try to wear out

ukraine's air defense systems. the ukrainian military says it was able to shoot down 11 drones arc at least 9 of them for kyiv. shelling becoming daily life there are serious concern about ongoing conversations the is war is having on civilians, particularly children. according to the children action project, 24% of ukraine's children experienced some form of bombing or shelling in the last year. it's having an impact on their learning. the percentage of children doing very good in school slid from 25% to 13%. joining us now, dr. irwynn lehner. tell me about this new survey. >> so, he wanted to check

objectively, nicolle, about how children were doing, so we spoke to moms. 2,000 ukrainian mothers from all over the country. and it was pretty shocking to find out how much the moms were worried about how their children were doing from a mental health point of view and also how they were slipping in school. that's not even to mention the kids that are out of the country as refugees, many who are not going to school at all. so it's a massive problem there away impact of this war on the children of ukraine. these kids, they're going to need to be functioning in full form, you know, from academic point of view, but also mental health point of view, because at some point they're going to be the main part, the center of ukraine's recovery, and if we don't have the kids ready to go, it's going to be an even worse disaster as we try to fix the damage the russians have done.

>> something that i think is so resonant here is that you can't cleave off helping our children survive a pandemic, right, because they need their teachers, their parents. what is the teacher piece of this and the parent piece of this in service of the children? >> with the american federation of teachers, karen and i met with representatives from the ukraine teachers union all over the country last time we were there, and teachers are really devastated. they're depressed, they're burn out. they're dealing with classrooms full of psychologically traumatized children, and it's just -- it's unbearable. and not only the teachers themselves have families, houses that are under attack and they're under threat constantly, so the whole situation for the parents, for the teachers, for the kids, it's just unfortunate. we really need to see this war end sooner rather than later. that said, ukrainians are resolute.

you know, just like their president zelenskyy. they want the russians out of their country. you can't blame them, but it's rough on the children and the other innocents who have nothing to do with this conflict in the first place. >> what is, you know, a year in the life of an adult can be traumatic, but because they've done more living it may not be as central. a year in the life of a child is everything. how do you make sure that in the moment you're protecting these children from what could be the life long consequences of trauma? >> kids need really constant support. they need their parents to be resilient. if parents are resilient and hanging in there and expressing confidence, everything's going to be all right to the kids, that's critical. the other thing is we have to get kids back into the continuity of school. it's really important and hard to make up. they went through, just like everywhere else in the world, a year of school being shut for -- because of covid. now on top of that comes this

war. so we have kids falling devastatingly behind. so we feel that getting kids back an education, even if it's remotely, but done well, is going to be essential for how well these kids do in the long run. >> thank you so much for all the work you're doing. when are you going back? >> april. >> always a trip on the books. if you would like to help the children and the families and the teachers in ukraine, you can make a donation to the ukraine children's action project. the website, ukrainecap.org is on your screen now, and we'll tweet it out later. doctor, thank you for joining us today. another break for us. we'll be right back frms . a little easier. (moo) mabel says for you, it's more like 5:15. man: mom, really? introducing new sweet and savory crepes. whether you like the flavor of cinnamon bun after sunset. or prefer to wake up to a little eggs and bacon.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> hi, nicolle. thank you so much. i'm ari melber. we begin tonight with breaking news. just in the p