developers, climate change, weather changes. i'll give you a couple examples. these are included in the hotels and restaurants in san antonio along east commerce street. these include the paradise valley nightclubs of detroit. the harriet tubman house in boston has been hold to a developer. keep your eye on the national trust of historic preservation. there is a fund looking at protecting 200 crucial sites to black history. >> very important sites and important reporting. thanks for bringing that to us this morning. margaret talev, we appreciate you being with us today. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. this weekend, major league baseball officially started spring training. yeah, and the big story -- [ applause ] i'm excited. the big story is that now there is a pitch clock that gives players 15 seconds between pitches. so far, it's sped up the games.

now, people are using the clock to speed up other things. look at this interview from the president. >> is your age into your own calculation as to whether to run again? >> first of all, look, first of all, to -- look, they -- the -- no but yes. >> there you go. it worked. >> jimmy fallon having some fun with baseball's new rule. we have a lot to get to this morning. a major conservative conference is going to be missing some star power. we'll go through the big names in the gop who are skipping cpac. we'll tell you which event many of them are attending instead. meanwhile, ron desantis takes control of a key figure in his so-called war on woke. we'll explain what is happening in florida. and we'll have the latest bombshells to come out of court documents in a lawsuit against

fox news, including rupert murdoch's testimony on false claims about election fraud. also ahead, we will be joined by education secretary miguel cardona, as president joe biden's plan to cancel student loan debt for some borrowers goes before the supreme court. good morning and welcome to "morning question." it is tuesday, february 28th. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. guess what, the circus is in town. not everyone is dressed. >> show starts at 6:00. >> if you could get ready, it is 6:00 a.m., heilemann. >> when you drag yourself from madison square garden to the set, you sometimes have a little bit of -- >> there we go. >> we're going to start with excuses. okay. i bet jen palmieri has no excuses. >> doesn't need 'em. >> women never do, but men are always late. >> jen is here.

former adviser to president george w bush, mark mckinnon is here. they're co-hosts of showtime's "the circus." dressed or not. okay. let's get to the top story. many of the republican names will not be attending the cpac in maryland this week. potential 2024 candidates, ron desantis, former vice president mike pence and governor glenn youngkin will not be at the gathering. mcdaniels, house speaker kevin mccarthy, mitch mcconnell, they're all sitting it out this year, as well. this year's conference comes as cpac's chair, matt schlapp, faces a lawsuit saying he fondled a male aid for herschel walker without consent in october.

schlapp's lawyers says he denies the allegations. none of the politicians who say they're not attending have cited schlapp's allegations for reason of their absence. several republicans who spoke to nbc news anonymously have said the allegations are a factor in the broader movement away from the conference. the event, which in years past was one of the biggest events for conservatives, will feature speeches from former president donald trump, 2024 candidate nikki haley, congresswoman marjorie taylor greene, and others. what do you think, joe? >> i think it is early. >> it is early. >> and you corrected yourself. >> i know. >> there was no allegations about matt and herschel walker, so it was an aide to herschel walker, not an aide and herschel walker. >> it is early. i apologize. >> no, no, no, no. this is fascinating, though, john heilemann.

this is where reagan would always go. this is where every conservative star used to go. at some point, it became obvious that it was going far upfield. again, you would have -- it became libertarian gathering, not a republican or conservative. that's when you have ron paul and rand paul, you know, start having a straw poll there, and it's sort of this feeling, like, seriously? am i going to really waste my time at cpac when, you know, they're going further and further mainstream? but they still held on to mainstream republicans until this year. now, it is interesting how many are just saying no. >> yeah. i actually think, joe, it's not -- yes, there's always been that kind of cranky libertarian thing, and it's always had the

flavor of whatever college kind of conservatism was in any year, but over the last decade, it became the maga political action committee -- conference, and committee, frankly. trump spoke there first in 2011 and was received rapturously with the earl little kind of version of what became the make america great again trump platform. it was, you know, attacking china, a attacking immigrants, birtherism, all that stuff. trump was trying to figure out -- he'd never been a republican, never a conservative. cpac became the kind of workshop for his early political development. he's like, i'm going to be a political figure. i'm going to try to figure out how to be a republican now. his version of conservatism, his version of radical,

grievance-based, nationalist politicians took shape there. every time you'd come in 2011, he was so rapturous, he thought about getting into the race in '12, more than people believe. '12, '13, '14, every time he came back, there was a bigger crowd. every time, they liked the message more. that was the lunching pad for him. he's owned that place ever since then. the fascinating thing right now is not only that a lot of these stars are staying away, trump will still have his big stage saturday knights. we'll see if he lost his fastball or whether he is back. a lot of people are like, let trump have it. you know, the trump pac, go forth and do what you'll do with matt schlapp and have fun there, while ron desantis hits the book trail and vice president pence goes to south carolina and chris

sununu stays far away. others decide, the party must change? here's a good place to start. take away cpac's power. >> well, of course, they're also all going to be going to talk to donors at club for growth. that in a minute. mark mckinnon, conservative, i've said for such a long time, there's very little that is conservative about cpac. you know, they, again, had this sort of college libertarian thing going. if you are idealogically based at all, how do you go from being, like, pure as driven snow, supporting libertarians, to then going in the authoritarian streak as hard as you can, and your new heros are donald trump and viktor orban. >> oh, my. >> not only have they been worshipping a guy in viktor orban, both here and by having these things over in hungary,

they're worshipping a guy politically who said he doesn't believe in western democracy anymore. that he is a champion of illiberalism. you and i know this, maybe the so-called conservatives don't know it, that is literally the antithesis of ronald reagan and reaganism. what orban, what trump preaches there, this authoritarianism in waiting is the exact opposite of what reagan and what these people who originally set cpac up were supposed to believe in. >> well, john mccain is rolling over in his grave. also, joe, i think i'm correct in noting that bolsonaro is going to be speaking. it's not just autocrats, it's other election deniers from foreign countries. as you said, it is so contrary to the traditional ideology that

we have known over the years through reagan, through bush, through mccain. again, as john talked about, you see the evolution of donald trump and where he started, the evolution through cpac. it is hard to figure out where the idealogical morings are. also, as john pointed out, this is his home turf. if i were a strategist for somebody like ron desantis, i'd say, what should we do that week? how about a book tour? don't go to his home turf. let'splatform, our own bull horn, and show we've got our own strength in another sphere. >> exactly what desantis is doing. book is out today. he's on a book tour. you're right, bolsonaro will be at cpac this week. jen, what is your assessment of what is going on this here? it is likely not the allegations of matt schlapp. by that standard, they would have walked away from donald trump if sexual misconduct bothered them that much. is it that cpac has become a "star wars" bar in recent years, they don't want to be a part of it? >> i think a lot of them would

be booed, right? if mike pence shows up at cpac, what is going to happen? mitch mcconnell showed up at cpac, i think he'd get booed, too. i think that some of them are probably concerned about that. also, just if it is going to be a trump home game, it is a little humiliating. i've been in presidential campaigns where you're working for underdogs. you want to have them present something new. desantis is definitely, you know, doing that. he is not -- i don't think he is going to go club for -- glub -- club for growth. >> easy to say. >> he is the only one with a record to run on, and he is playing his own game. >> several potential presidential candidates will attend the club for growth this week. ron desantis and pence will be

there, as well as haley, tim scott, ted cruz, rick scott, chris sununu. they've declined to invite trump to the gathering. the group's president wants to introduce republican donors to other possibles, saying, quote, the party should be open to another candidate. interesting journey for club for growth the last several years. all in for donald trump changed who they were, who he was about, to fall in line with him. now, they don't believe he's the future of the party. >> split screen with cpac being the trump show and club for growth not letting trump come. interesting to see how nikki haley is received at cpac. talk about someone who may face boos if they feel she hasn't been loyal to donald trump. >> great point. >> club for growth is trying to steer the party in a different direction, at least for now. i think we all suspect if trump emerges as the heavyweight, if perhaps the cpac speech launches a renewed campaign, if he is

able to fend off these challengers, i want to assume the club for growth will hop back on. but the desantis thing is the shadow over all of this. the anti-trump movement has coalesced around desantis, though he is more in theory than practice. he's done what least done in florida. unclear whether it'll play on the national stage. he seems to have plenty of fox news support right now, joe. that is going to be, in the days ahead, as we see trump with cpac and desantis and others at the club for growth gathering, what does it tell us about where the republican party is right now? long way from the election but important first steps. >> you know, mika had a tease on the dominion lawsuit. been talking about murdoch. murdoch has never had any use for donald trump. didn't like him. let people know he didn't like him. thought he was an idiot. he, obviously, played ball with

him and dealt with him while trump was very popular with the base. but they flat out told people close to them, they don't like trump. they don't want trump. weirdly enough, they kind of like glenn youngkin, but i don't know that they're going to be able to sell that to their viewers. but i will say, you had desantis last night taking victory laps on tucker's show. you'll have desantis showing up. trump is complaining about this. trump understands. you know, you can attack fox one day if you're running in a republican primary if you're donald trump, but, you know what? big wheels keep on rolling, as -- you know? and the thing is, day after day after day after day after ignoring donald trump, elevaing ron desantis and others, trump knows, it has a massive impact on republican primaries. the reason i know is, you know, i saw what fox news did to my

parents. i saw what it did to my aunt. you know, you have these people that started, you know, coming at me with conspiracy theories, and i said, where did you get that? glenn beck. don't watch glenn beck. we've all heard those stories. >> yeah. >> so it has a massive impact in the republican primary, especially with the people who vote the most in a republican primary, older voters. >> yup. i mean, look, first of all, i just noticed this earlier when we had a little -- we had on screen a little murdoch. can we put -- there was a picture with murdoch and the dominion thing. can somebody put that up? rupert murdoch, it seemed like -- >> show director? >> when he went by, you can't look at him now and not see logan roy. he looks like "succession" now. every time he's on screen, he is turning more and more into a character in that show visually. >> by the way, hold on that.

you brought him up. when does "succession" come back? >> sunday, march 26th, this month. >> next month. >> by the way, for the record, mika and i saw "1923" again, and spencer still didn't make it back. we are beyond ourselves. >> i'm done. >> i keep thinking we'll watch it, and one of these episodes, he is going to get back. >> i'm done. >> mika was not happy. she predicted that at the start of the season. she said, "they are never going to let spencer get back." >> i'm -- when i can predict everything, i'm bored. >> oh, please. >> they're boring. >> no, they're not. >> you cannot -- >> stop. >> you didn't live off one narrative and suck it dry, seriously, "1923." >> tired of that. >> mika loves "1923." >> no. >> you do. >> done. >> no, she's not. >> mika, that's a question for donald trump, can you live off one narrative and suck it dry? >> no. >> donald trump has been living off one narrative for a while.

>> yeah. >> to give cpac its due, and it goes to the murdoch thing. the fox news thing, joe, very powerful among older conservative voters. everybody understand 60, though, this was trump's bet in 2016, was that breitbart news and newsmax and these conservative outlets that are to the right of fox were getting more on of a hold on anti-establishment republicans. they were like, fox news is like msnbc as far as they're concerned. now, you have the further right people out looking at facebook groups most of the time. fox is still very powerful, but there are lots of other powerful outlets in conservative politics. over this week at cpac, establishmentarians here at the table, republican party will laugh at us saying cpac is dead. you know who will be there? donald trump jr., marjorie

taylor greene, matt gaetz. we have the maga part of the party, still the biggest part of the party, they say, chris sununu, chris christie, glenn youngkin, these are wall street republicans. they don't speak for us. these are the descendents of donald trump. cpac would say to all of us, hey, forget it. we're still the heart and soul of the party. >> i mean, they are the people that lose. insur insurrectionists, weirdos, freaks, and mr. pillow is coming, as well, i saw. >> mr. pillow. >> it'll be fascinating. >> deniers, too. >> yeah. again, the people who lose. that's fine. if they want to have the party be a convention of losers, get to it. have fun. on the other side of the equation, we keep having hand-wringing, jen, about joe biden. joe biden needs to quit.

joe biden needs to step aside. joe biden this. joe biden that. >> joe biden needs a new running mate is the new thing, too. >> yeah, i saw a poll out that had, like, biden at 50%. i think it was emerson. you look at all the polls, he is going up. his overall 538 average is going up. this is a guy who is -- you know, he's sitting at 50% in some polls, and other polls keep moving up. this isn't a guy that's going to say, "yeah, i'm getting more popular, now is a great time to just quit after 2022, after making history." i mean, this guy is going. >> yeah, and i was textingbenni weekend, who is the outgoing white house communications director. this is her last week. congratulating her, ron klain, the team in place the last two years. they have, and the president has

done absolutely everything to prove to the american people that he is more than capable of doing the job. and, you know, that is why the republican primary is starting this week and the democratic primary is not. the age question, it's always going to be there. every administration has its crucible. that is his. that will always be there, but in terms of what more could he have done to prove his -- to have a proof of concept that his presidency is working, that the theory is working, you know, economy still has a long way to go, but things are improving. what he's done on the world stage, what he has born physically, he can do this. i think that is why you see no one suggesting that they would run. i know there's been -- likewise, i saw there was some reporting, questioning whether the vice president will continue to be on the ticket. there is zero chance, let me

tell you people, there is zero chance that kamala harris will not be his running mate. there is no way they are taking her off the ticket. everything she has brought to the administration, the support she has within the base, like, this is the -- you know, for now, unless something dramatically different happens, democrats start to step up to run, i just don't see a scenario where that happens, like, this is the ticket. >> yeah. and to jen's point, willie, not only what more does he need to do, what more do we need to know? president biden stands by his decisions. we've seen that every step of the way. he's put a lot of points on the board, but even decisions like afghanistan, he stood by. he has resolve on what he is doing. what more does he need to do, and what more do we need to know when dr. jill biden says, "yup, he's ready to go"? >> that is the question, but i guess it doesn't matter at this

point. when he announces, it's a formality that doesn't quite affect the race all that much because nobody else really is threatening to get back in. do we have a sense of his timetable where he may officially say, yeah, i'll make another run at it? >> williamson is expected to announce her candidacy this week. >> so on. >> to challenge the president. we saw from the first lady this week, growing frustration in the west wing about these questions as to whether he is going to run and when. to be fair, the timeline slipped some. they had been telegraphing they'd announce after the state of the union in february. that's no longer the case. they're coalescing around april. that, in part, for fundraiing purposes. let the first quarter come and go, announce, then raise money instead after report an incomplete quarter. 2011, april is when barack obama announced his re-election bid. there was no questions as to whether or not obama would run for a second term. there have been for biden. the white house believes they have largely -- they point to

the resume and say, "we put those questions to rest." they point to his legislative record, to the contrast with the four years of trump emerging out of the pandemic, the aftermath of january 6th and, of course, as was so vividly on display last week, his leadership on the war in europe and supporting ukraine on russia's invasions. they feel that they're well-positioned. they like the contrast they have with the republicans, joe. to jen's point, the vice president is going to be on the ticket for many reasons, including, of course, as noted, the base -- the foundation of the democratic party right now is black women. they're not going to alienate that by pushing kamala harris off as joe biden's running mate. >> right. biden, again, he's continuing, slow and steady as far as ratings go. alex said i accidentally said 50%. it is 44%. he's gone from the 30s to the low 40s.

he's moving up. his average is moving up. he is now moving into the mid 40s. i thought it was so interesting yesterday, mark mckinnon, when we played the jill biden clip. she didn't say hope and change. she didn't play "rock star." didn't say joe biden was going to be a rock star, you know, like donald trump tried to play this bigger than life, strong rock star. she basically said what our parents always said, that may sound boring in the age of tiktok, but she was basically saying, slow and steady gets the job done. he's steady. americans needed somebody who was steady. somebody with resolve, somebody with a foundation, somebody that was going to stay there and hold this country together. i thought, what a great message given the chaos that we've seen

over the past 6, 7 years, and just how exhausted american voters are by what they have seen every day in the age of trump. hey, i'll take steady any day of the week. you know, people make fun of the new prime minister in britain, suggesting that he is not up to the task. you talk to people in britain, they say the same thing. he's steady. >> that's right, joe. >> he's steady. >> that's how he won in 2020. a normal beats crazy, as well. if the republican party goes off the rails like it appears to be headed in the republican primary, given all the maga physics, then i think joe biden has a chance. the one thing he can't change, he can't get in a time machine. 86% of american voters don't think anybody should be president over the age of 75. that's where republicans still have an advantage against joe biden. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe,

joe,," we'll continue that conversation. also, as russian troops focus on eastern ukraine, president volodymyr zelenskyy has a new objective, taking back crimea. that's where nbc's keir simmons is this morning. we'll have the latest on that. and much more ahead on "morning joe."

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with additional resources and conducting health surveys. epa administrator michael regan will also make his third visit to the town today. he is expected to announce a new community center where residents can meet with various agency staff members. meanwhile, pennsylvania governor josh shapiro says he is meeting with officials from norfolk southern later this week. the democrat says the rail operator refused to participate in the unified command in the early days of the crisis and did not provide enough information to federal officials. >> clearly, they've been bad actors in this case, and they have a responsibility to make it good for the good people of pennsylvania. make it right. make sure the air they breathe is safe. the water they drink is safe. the farmland where their animals roam is safe. where their crops are harvested are safe. they have a lot of work to do, and the cost will come out of

their pocket. the federal government has made that very clear, and i'll make that clear, as well. then i think they have a responsibility going forward to make sure something like this never happens again. i'll expect norfolk southern to be far more transparent with pennsylvania if they bring these trains through our commonwealth in the future. >> you know, it's interesting, willie, with republicans trashing joe biden nonstop and constantly focused on joe biden, what they've done is they've deflected from norfolk southern. people aren't talking about what norfolk southern's responsibility is. >> or the regulations that apply to them. >> or the regulations the republicans stripped out, that donald trump stripped out. so they keep it on the biden administration when, of course, we said whenever there were derailments, trump never went to the derailments. they keep talking about pete buttigieg, how he looks in a hat, so they can distract people from the fact that norfolk southern, who, you know, they've been supported by.

>> childish. >> right. they get the railroad out of people's mind. it's a bait and switch. it doesn't work. it's the railroad's fault. >> the epa has been there on the ground from the beginning. it's not pete buttigieg. we've said it on this show this times, he went too late, but the epa has been on the ground and said norfolk southern will pay for all this, any cleanup, future damages, on and on and on. the rail company is being held to account by the biden administration. jen, whether or not president biden goes, maybe he will go, maybe he won't go, we'll see, as joe says. donald trump didn't go and, frankly, elaine chao, the transportation secretary, didn't go every time there was a train derailment. this is an awful tragedy in that small town, but this has become a political fight for republicans to use against the administration more than a serious debate about who is responsible. >> i have been in these situations when i worked at the white house. it's difficult for the administration because it's, like, you know, the epa add

menstrua administrator has the most to do here, with the toxic spill. everyone assumes it is pete buttigieg's job because he is a transportation secretary and this was a train wreck. you know, that is -- when you have the job of cleaning up and dealing with it, opposed to just pontificaing about it, it is trickier to deal with. trump has struck a chord with this, though, i have to say. when he went to east palestine last week, he was better than we had seen in other, you know, more recent times, where all he does is complain about himself. in east palestine, he was -- you know, he was advocating on behalf of the people that were there. aggrieved on their behalf, not his own. that area of ohio is a tough one for democrats, but the administration, you have to go. you've got -- you know, biden should show up at some point, as well. you just -- there's not a lot of

political payoff for that area, but it's a responsibility. we want to see the administration is doing everything they can. >> administrator regan going again, his third time. the white house hasn't scheduled a presidential visit, but there's conversations about potentially sending him or the vice president in the days ahead. mark mckinnon, obviously, this is a health crisis and health story. systems need to be in place to track for years, if not decades, the fallout from this. we all remember what happened after september 11th and the toxic fumes there. there's also, of course, a political component to this. how much risk do you think this does pose to a sitting president? >> well, i think it poses a risk for republicans and donald trump. the other story beyond health is regulation. a lot of people's eyes were boom when they said, wait a minute, a train a mile long has maybe two engineers on it, people responsible for the train? i think a lot of people were realizing the extent to which

there isn't any train safety right now in america. this is just the latest example of it. that's primarily due to deregulation on republicans' watch. >> speaking of the hat thing with pete buttigieg, i asked mckinnon how he thought buttigieg looked in the hat. he is an authority on how men look in hats. he thought pete buttigieg looked fine in the hat. >> making hats great again. >> more of a helmet than a hat. we're splitting hairs. it's more of a helmet. let's turn overseas where ukraine is reporting new casualty members out of bakhmut. the nation's defense minister posting on social media yesterday, russian forces are using tactics of, quote, exhaustion and total destruction in that city. the minister added, ukraine believes russia is losing between 600 and 1,000 soldiers were day. bakhmut is just one of the cities in ukraine's east experiencing heavy combat. joining us from crimea is chief international correspondent keir simmons. nbc news is the only western news organization inside crimea.

keir, what are you seeing there? >> reporter: willie, i'm standing inside crimea right now. behind me is the bridge. we'll give a closer look at it now. this is the bridge that back in october was hit with an explosion that the russians said was from ukrainian special forces. president putin described as a terrorist attack. last week, this bridge was fully reopened, but this bridge -- and we traveled across it, willie, to get here to crimea -- this bridge is also an illustration of why mark milley says that crimea will be so difficult for ukrainian forces to take. president zelenskyy said he wants to do it. this bridge is one of two ways onto this peninsula. the other is a land bridge to the northwest of here.

now, when we came here to crimea yesterday, we travelled about 4 hours across the peninsula. there, we found another reason why crimea will be a challenge for ukrainian forces. we spoke to a number of people, all of them spoke in russian, described themselves as russian. one 73-year-old woman told us if she was younger, she would fight. another man in his 50s said, we aren't prepared to be slaves. there was a lot of propaganda for president putin, supporting russia's so-called special military operation. but we did find a lot of opinion there that was supportive of russia and opposed to what president zelenskyy has said he wants to do, which is to take back crimea. another observation, important observation to note was just how much military we saw there.

many soldiers and members of the navy. president putin's black sea fleet is based in savastapol. there is a lot of russian military here. some estimates, tens of thousands. that will be a challenge for the ukrainians if they try to take back this territory. then we traveled to another area, where people describe themselves as frightened to speak out, saying they don't want to see war. one woman telling us, you know, mothers are crying, both ukrainian and russian. >> keir, to underline something you said earlier, vladimir putin's argument has been for some time, and others has been, that crimea, the people in crimea relate more to russia than they do ukraine.

is that what you are finding in the middle of this war still? even though you have president zelenskyy talking about wanting to take back crimea, most people in crimea relate more to russia than a government in kyiv? >> reporter: a lot of the people we spoke to, joe. we've been here for 24 hours. one woman showed us her russian passport. that raises a question. there are all kinds of historical questions around that. this place has a unique history, but it raises a question and concern, particularly for nato. would nato weapons be used to take this place, and would there be civilian casualties? would there be civilian casualties among the population that see themselves as russian? another very important point that we saw for ourselves here, joe, is that sevatopol, the home of the black sea fleet, it has been since the times of the

russian empire, and i think that underscores why president putin considers this place to be so important to him. he's built a freeway from here in kirsch to sevastopol. it connecs the port to the russian mainland, as moscow might describe it. that is important to point out because one of the reasons why president putin likely took the action he did a year ago was because he wanted to defend and protect sevatopol and the black sea fleet there. the irony is, of course, by mounting that invasion, president putin made it more likely the ukrainians won't want the black sea fleet there because it'd threaten their coastline. that is an impossible to negotiate position, you might think. that would suggest that this conflict is likely to continue. >> great insight. nbc's keir simmons reporting

exclusively from crimea. thank you very much for being on this morning. >> john heilemann, as we move to and past the one-year anniversary, a lot of people talking about how this war could go on for quite some time. it's fascinating, we hear often that foreign policy doesn't have an impact on presidential politics, on american politics. well, we all saw joe biden's numbers drop after afghanistan. so many people didn't like what happened there and blamed that on joe biden. his numbers went under 50% for the first time. from you all going around and things you read, things you've been studying, what's your take on how this ukraine war is impacting joe biden? >> well, i think at the moment, joe, one of the things, the big quadrant box that political consultants and strategists look

at, understands people like us, the issues boxes, but strong leader is always the thing you most want, the projection of strength. at this stage, in kind of that amophous sense, biden gets some political benefit. not a huge amount with voters at home but some, in the sense it reflects strength, consistency, and he gets applauded for being -- we talked about this last week a little bit -- being the image of what a lot of normal, not hyperpartisan americans, want america to be the leader on the world stage. they see him leading on the world stage and think, that's what an american president should be doing, is leading. i think, you know, in the longer run, over the course of the next couple years, we've seen many times that you can win a war and not get that much credit. george herbert walker bush assembles a coalition in the gulf in 1990. 1991, has a 90% approval rating and gets beat by bill clinton in 1992. that's the best example where you can win a war and still lose the politics. there's a lot of cases where,

obviously, if the war goes south, if vladimir putin ends up, god forbid, owning kyiv 18 months from now, that's the kind of thing that ron desantis and donald trump and whoever the republican nominee, you know, could use to eviscerate joe biden with. you spent all that time abroad, and then you lost. it's a high-stakes gambit. history, i think, will judge joe biden's work here kindly, and that may be the most important thing joe biden does in office, if he helps the allies repel russian aggression in ukraine. but the politics are tricky. the upside is not accepting the -- it's not that tangible or great, and the downside can be really big. biden things he is doing what is the right thing to do for the sake of the cause of democracy and freedom around the world. i don't think he'll change, no matter what the politics are.

>> jen palmieri, mark mckinnon and john heilemann, thank you for bringing the circus to town. appreciate you being on this morning. the new house committee on china will hold its first hearing in primetime. preview on what to expect. plus, congresswoman barbara lee has considered a crowded and expensive race for the u.s. senate seat being vacated by diane feinstein. the california democrat will join us to discuss her bid. "morning joe" will be right back. ade you're ready for anything. marriage. kids. college. kids moving back in after college. ♪ finally we can eat. ♪ you know you make me wanna...♪ and then we looked around and said, wait a minute, this isn't even our stroller! (laughing) you live with your parents, but you own a house in the metaverse? mhm. cool...i don't get it. here's to getting financially ready for anything! and here's to being single and ready to mingle. who's ready to cha-cha?! ♪ yeah, yeah ♪

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before the top of the hour. a live look at times square for you this morning. a little rainy in new york city. tiktok will soon be banned from all u.s. government-issued devices according to white house guidance issued yesterday. federal agencies and those they contract with have 30 days to remove the app from official devices. it comes after a bill passed

last year requiring federal agencies to ditch the social media app. u.s. officials have raised concerns that the chinese government could pressure tiktok's parent company to hand over information collected from users, which could be used for intelligence or disinformation purposes. a tiktok spokesperson said the company hopes congress will explore solutions that won't sensor the voices of millions of americans. willie. pennsylvania senator john fetterman still is in the hospital but on the path to recovery. that's according to his spokesperson, who says the senator is doing well and, quote, visiting with staff and family daily. no word on when he will be discharged, but his office says this will be a weeks long process. the 53-year-old democrat checked himself into walter reid medical center for clinical depression two weeks ago. he had a stroke in may just days before winning the democratic primary. earlier this month, he was hospitalized again for lightheadedness. doctors ruled out a second

stroke. shortly after that, doctor suggested fetterman be treated for depression. >> we wish him well. also, it is election day in chicago. voters are heading to the polls in the first round of the city's mayoral election. a wide field of challengers is casting doubt on incumbent mayor lori lightfoot's chance at re-election. her campaign's polling showed her in the lead but with only 4% of the vote. nine candidates are on the ballot, all running as democrats. if no candidate gets more than 50% of the total vote, the top two will face off in a runoff election on april 4th. still ahead on "morning joe," a look at the stories making front page headlines in newspapers across the country. plus, one of our next guests makes the case for why jimmy carter was actually a very good foreign policy president. that's all ahead on "morning joe."

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's a few minutes before the top of the hour. time now for a look at the morning papers. "the montgomery advertiser" leads with the alabama sheriffs association supporting a bill to penalize people who don't tell law enforcement if they're carrying a gun. it'd make concealing a firearm from police a misdemeanor. currently, the state's constitutional carry law requires people to disclose their gun information to police, but there are no consequences if they don't say anything. in south carolina, the state has a front page feature on the latest developments in the alex murdaugh trial. the disgraced county attorney is accused of killing his wife and son. yesterday, a judge ruled to allow the jury to visit the scene of the crime. the defense argues this will help jurors understand how the shootings happened. and, finally, in d.c., "the washington times" highlights a survey that finds most recent

college graduates are emotionally unprepared to survive in the workplace. a boston non-profit surveyed 1,000 professionals aged 22 to 28. more than half said they have sought help for anxiety, depression and other emotional problems. parents rights advocates are blaming this on soft parenting, falling academic standards, which they say accelerated when school closed during the pandemic. fascinating. we should dig deeper into that. coming up, the u.s. commerce secretary talks about a major issue, what the shortage of semiconductors means for america's place on the world stage. that's just ahead on "morning joe."

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get it before it's gone on the subway app! given we don't have a consensus, it would be foolish for me to get out ahead of speculation on hypothetical situations to come. we just aren't there yet. >> national security council spokesperson john kirby asking a question about a possible response to china if u.s. intelligence were to determine beijing has been lying about the origins of covid. meanwhile, china will be the focus of the first primetime hearing for house republicans. spoking of foreign policy, our next guest says former president jimmy carter handled it well while he was in office. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, february 28th. jonathan lemire is still with us. joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle is with us, and

pulitzer prize-winning columnist at "the washington post," gene robinson joins us, as well. >> mika, you and me are old. i'm not going to say gene is old. >> no. >> gene has experience. >> i'm old. >> mike barnicle as experience. >> they're wise. >> i just wanted to follow up on this "washington times" story. i think it is a -- >> let me catch our new guests up on it. >> oh, okay. >> it just finds that young people, recent college graduates, are emotionally unprepared to survive in the workplace, aged 22 to 28. they sought help for anxiety, depression and other emotional problems. they blame it on soft parenting as well as covid-related, you know, disconnection. >> at some point, we need to do a segment on this, but it is very interesting that friends my

age, really old and who have kids in this age bracket, they're not looking at their children, blaming their children for challenges they're going through. they're looking at themselves and saying, were we soft parents? there's a new expression out there. willie and lemire don't do it, it's called snowplow parenting. you heard helicopter parenting. snowplow parenting is where you get in the snowplow and you push everything out of your child's way because you want them to have a better life than you had. all the things you had to wrestle with and get through, you want to help make things easier for your kids. what one medical professional after another medical professional is saying, and we've had people on the show talk about it, is that parents like people my age and younger, have done their children a grave

disservice by doing this. because anxiety, when you're younger, gene robinson, what they're saying when they come on our show is, don't bubble wrap your kids. the anxiety is what helps them when they're younger, in smaller situations, be able to respond to it, be able to absorb it, be able to process it and move forward. but if you're a snowplow parent, knocking everything out of their way for the first 20 years of their lives, 22 years of their lives, it is going to be harder to move forward. >> yeah. well, i'm not sure either of my sons would say that we are snowplow parents, but, honestly, i think we did more for our kids than our parents did, in part because we were able to do more. we were able -- >> right. >> -- to contribute financially

to their higher education, for example, in a way that our parents were not able to do. >> yeah. >> by the same token, you know, they've been out and they've had their setbacks. i don't think either of them fits this sort of description of fragility and snowflakeness that is being used -- >> of course not. we were not suggesting that. i just wasn't going to go to young lemire. yeah, no. >> lemire doesn't snowplow. >> you know, i mean, i'm saying i think it's an interesting story. i just am always suspicious about stories that, you know, are, like, kids today. >> yeah. >> you know, kids today are kids today. i mean, they grew up in a different time. they sometimes have different

values. there are different things that are important to them than were important to us. certainly our parents thought we went off the rails and there were plenty of problems with our generation when we were growing up, to say the least. i don't know if we turned out okay, but here we are. >> yeah. >> they're going to be running the world. that's just the way it works. >> i do think there's actually a real epidemic right now of anxiety and sadness. there's data to back that up, even suicidal ideation. we have to look at this and look at it from 30,000 feet, 20,000 feet, and close up. the blame the parents is one good way to go, but then there is the pandemic which i think really ripped this open and showed the troubles that young people were facing today on their screens, on social media, exposed to things through the internet at a very early age.

now, we have generations of kids that have been exposed to things way too early because the internet, it makes everything available to them. we haven't really looked at what this means for their emotional development. >> yeah. >> and i do think for young people, especially in their early 20s, we're seeing something very serious. we're seeing data that is showing that they're not doing okay, that they need help, or we need a different way of presenting things to them. that is back to tech companies and other forms of education and parenting. >> well, and, again, you read, there is data on it that talks about it. willie, one study after another shows high instances of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, lot of things going on there. one of the reasons this was front of mind, i saw a ferguson

column in "bloomberg" yesterday that talked about this. the numbers were just overwhelming. it is interesting, there is this counter, too, that i actually took out of this piece. talking about how people, teenagers and a little older, are actually becoming less -- or being more risk adverse, more conservative. listen to this. this is fascinating. percentage of u.s. high school girls who have had -- ever had sex. 2011, 46%. now, it's at 31%. had sex with four or more partners was at 13%. now it is at 5%. currently sexual active, 34%, now 23%. drank alcohol in the past 30 days was at 38%, now at 26%. had ever used elicit drugs, that was at 19%, that's dropped down

to 15%. it's interesting. couple things going on at the same time. higher suicidal ideations, depression, anxiety, psychiatric challenges. >> lower risky behavior. >> again, less risky behavior than even ten years ago. fascinating. >> yeah. fewer teen pregnancies. i think we agree those are all good things. fewer teen pregnancies, less alcohol, less drug use. you cannot discount the pandemic over the last few years and what that's done to kids, combined with what mika was talking about with social media. things we didn't grow up with. it allows you, and in the case of the pandemic, forces you to be more isolated and to just be staring into your phone and comparing yourself to other people, to other young girls, to other teenage girls online and saying, "why don't i look like that? why haven't i been there? why am i not at the party?" mike, having raised some damn

good kids, interested in your view, college, with a hat tip to my wife. we talk about this, too. college is now crazy competitive to get into the right place, where you want to go. the kids grow up from the time they're 10 years old, 12 years old, building a resume, not necessarily having as much grit maybe as they could have because they're thinking about how is this going to look if i want to get into school x and y. >> this is such a big issue that we're talking about here. i mean, first of all, to mika's point and the point you raised, willie, the lack of socialization that was stripped from so many kids during covid. the inability to be with a friend in school for a couple of years. that's one issue, certainly. the other issue is that you just pointed out when you said your wife, i mean, kids today, i would think, have a much stronger chance at the starting gate if there is a mother and a father in the family. the divorce rate, of course, keeps going up in this country, so that is another factor. but the biggest factor of all in

the college application process. for some reason or another, kids, and sometimes it is because of the parents' feeling about the college application process, you're going to be happy no matter where you get in. >> yeah. >> you're going to get in some place. might not get into harvard, but there will be a school for you, a place for you. the other idea, i'm better with boys than i am with girls, we have lots of both in our family, we have seven children, but with boys, it's different. i think you have to grab them early, at 7, 8, 9 years of age, and you have to realize today that the menu of dangers available right there for kids today, the menu of dangers is so much more than it was even ten years ago. it is almost incomprehensible, i think, for parents, parents of a certain age, 40s, 50s, whatever, to realize that that menu of dangers lurks each and every

day. it's a private menu. the kids can get it on their phones without you looking over their shoulder. you know years ago what they were watching on tv. now, you don't know. but with young boys, you have to tell them from the 7 or 8 years of age, no matter what they're good at, no matter what they're doing, you've got to remind them gently, "you're great. i love you. you're the best. but there is always going to be someone better. watch out for that. be prepared for that." >> there you go. you know, love, unconditional love, but also the challenge at the same time, saying, yeah, we don't -- i don't know. it is such a tough balance. we're talking about so many big things. i have to throw one more thing in, though. i read something that tom wolf wrote. i brought it up several times on this show, any time we talk about depression and anxiety with kids.

tom wolf, 30th anniversary, i think it was, in "rolling stone," i need a copy of this. they asked tim in 1998, what are your thoughts? we saw what, you know, the youth generation was like in 1968. the radicalism, the experimentation, the social progress that was made. compare it to younger people in 1998. tom wolf said, i am forever struck by the fact that the children of the wealthiest generation in the history of humankind is also the most heavily medicated. for tom wolf, he saw a link between that materialism and the depression and the anxiety. this was, what was that, 25 years ago? >> yeah. >> jonathan lemire. >> dad talked a lot about that.

>> that's what dr. brzezinski talked about all the time. people going to the mall and filling their teenage years by consumerism, there is an emptiness there. i'm not saying kids today are empty, but just following up on what gene said, you know, we had a little more money, so we gave the kids a little bit more. gene's kids are incredible. but, you know, it's like, i remember my parents, i could -- i would get an album, like, a month. my parents said, we know you love music. we know it is your life. we'll sign you up for the colombia -- i'd never send back the card, so i'd get bizarre albums one month after another. but that's what they did. when think kids and everybody else's kids were growing up, you're walking to best buy, can i have a cd? sure, yeah. can i have this? yeah. can i download that? sure. can i download this? yeah. it was far different than that one album a month that you looked forward to.

it's a long way, jonathan lemire, from walking 5 miles to school in the morning on a dirt road with no shoes. i'm not saying i had it tough. i'm just saying that i think there may be a link between this vast materialistic world we live in -- >> and lack of happiness. >> -- and lack of happiness. >> there is a definitive link there. situations are different from when we were kids versus our kids now. it is trying to strike that balance. what can you give? what do they have to earn? what do they have to work for? this is a moment where things -- people are so isolated and fractured. a lot of the social networks that kids have relied upon for generations have frayed because everyone can just stare into their phone. to echo what has been -- some really wonderful things being said here already. i mean, that's the challenge here. it's to show them support, show them love, to always be there for them, but also acknowledge

it is not always going to be easy, nor should it be. not just because i refuse to let my kids beat me in anything, they have to earn that, but also that's the life lessons there. to show them, it is going to be a struggle sometimes. it is going to be a challenge. the journey is part of the reward. certainly, the pandemic has changed so many things, and to a conversation we've had on this show a lot, we're going to find out for years, years from now, the far-reaching impact of this disruption. adults and children alike, life has frayed, become different because of what happened, in the combination of the pandemic, phones and social media. we're going to be studying the impact of this for generations to come. >> a lot of people are perhaps more comfortable at home because of everything over the last couple years and don't want to come back into the office. it'll change the way we work is and everything else. just a note, mike barnicle takes the opposite of the snowplow. when his kids shovel the driveway, he pushes the snow back on the driveway and makes them do it again. just the opposite.

>> i believe that. >> you know, lemire was talking about how he doesn't let his kids win anything. that reminds me of george. george scarborough, not a snowplow parent. when i was 6 years old, he taught me to play ping-pong. would beat me 21-4 for about five or six years. >> oh, yeah. >> when i put one over that he could slam, boom! frazier is down. frazier is down, exactly. >> this is a great conversation. we're going to get to the news now, but worth having and worth revisiting. i think we're going to put together the data, get a psychologist to talk about how we address these, as well. to our top story now at 16 past the hour, the white house responded yesterday to reports that the energy department has reached a conclusion on the origins of covid. the department gave a report to the white house and key members of congress that concluded it has low confidence the virus most likely leaked from a lab in

china. it also believes covid was not the result of a chinese bioweapon. yesterday, national security council spokesperson john kirby pushed back on the suggestion that this was a definitive conclusion on how the pandemic started. >> there is not a consensus right now in the u.s. government about exactly how covid started. there is just not an intelligence community consensus. i would add, one of the things the president did was he is the one who tasked the national labs, which report up through the department of energy, to study this, as well. it wasn't just confined to the intelligence community. that work is still ongoing. but the president believes it is really important that we continue that work and that we find out, as best we can, how it started, so we can better prevent a future pandemic. what the president wants is facts. he wants the whole government designed to go get those facts,

ask that's what we are doing. we're not there yet. >> willie, that's the way to do it. put this in perspective. you have one agency that says it has low confidence that this was a lab leak. one agency. so you would have thought yesterday the headlines of "the new york times" screamed something like, "war is over." you know, "lab leak," like the reality. the thing is, we don't know. i have to say, to me, again, i have no information on this, the lab leak makes the most sense. at the same time, we don't know. as we said yesterday, as we've been saying for months, we don't know because the chinese government has not been cooperating with us. they've been lying to us. they've been hiding the facts. we don't know what it is. that's why i was skeptical when donald trump came out and said that president xi in january of 2020 was a great guy, was

working with the united states, and the people of the united states are grateful to have somebody like president xi in china doing all the great. i was skeptical of that just as i was skeptical of newspapers that made fun of, who was it, tom cotton, when tom cotton said it might be a lab leak. they said that he was spreading conspiracy theories. no, it's not. we just don't know. you've got different agencies coming to different conclusions, and they can come to different conclusions. until we get a little bit of cooperation from the chinese government, we're probably not going to have a good read on this. >> and we haven't had any cooperation from the beginning. no access to the lab, so you can't say with any certainty it was the lab leak, as we saw with the low confidence disclaimer put in by the department of energy. also, the wet market where other agencies believe it began was shut down and all the animals were killed before anyone could get in there. they don't really know that

either. it's sort of a mixed bag, jonathan lemire, of agencies, intelligence agencies who are trying to piece together what they can over three years of digging, to see how this originated. this is one agency, the department of energy, saying with low confidence, it was lab leak. a lot of people celebrated, see, told you so. you could point to four other agencies that have a different theory about it. >> right. that's what's happened here. there's been a confusion between the investigation and the political talking points. >> yeah. >> so many on the right early on in the pandemic jumped at the idea it was a lab leak, though, really, their design, it was a deliberate attempt by the chinese to create this and then put the virus out into the world. that has been swirled up and the conspiracy theories on the right about dr. anthony fauci and so on. therefore, that whole idea became discredited in many ways in the rest of the media and, i think, some in the government suggested, as well. now, we're learning more slowly about what may have happened there. that's the key point here. there's no consensus.

there is a really live in the intelligence agencies. there is a divide in the government writ large. that's going to remain until beijing decides to cooperate. to this point, they have shown no inclination to do so. just adding to the tension right now between the u.s. and china over the spy balloon, over economic matters and, of course, this increased warning that china is really help moscow with lethal aid. that's the backdrop of the hearing tonight, with the tension between the countries only growing right now. >> the concern from the beginning has been that china hasn't cooperated. unfortunately, back in the beginning when it really made a big difference, we actually had a president who was doing everything he could to stop china from having to cooperate. this is what donald trump wrote in 2020. china has been working very hard to contain the coronavirus. the united states greatly appreciates their efforts and

transparency. donald trump wrote of xi on covid. it will all work out well, in particular, on behalf of the american people, i want to thank president xi. that's donald trump. while people in his own administration, right, we talked about people in his own administration telling him in december that he wasn't being told the truth. matt pottinger was saying, "china won't give us the truth on this, where this is coming from, the origins of it." pottinger was trying to get donald trump to push, to get scientists sent in there. unfortunately, for whatever reason, donald trump was saying president xi was being, quote, transparent, and on behalf of the american people, donald trump said, "thank you, president xi." i wish he had listened to people in his own administration early on. i wish they had pushed it when there was still more evidence there. moe

mika, he didn't do it. >> it was frustrating. >> in fact, it was the opposite. >> just the opposite. >> he was praising president xi for transparency. >> yes. i mean, it was a terrible time on a number of levels. let's bring in columnist for "the daily beast," david, thank you for being this this morning. >> how do you separate the low confidence and the mid confidence? it seems every government agency has a different president on this. >> well, i think you sort through it by concluding we don't know. yesterday, the u.s. ambassador to china, nick burns, said china has to stop lying. until china stops lying, until they stop hiding the information, we see what it produces, confused intelligence agencies. i think we should really avoid jumping off this low confidence decision and saying, 'there, they leaked it.

that explains everything. we have to look forward and recognize it'll take a long time before we know, not only as you guys said earlier, the consequences of covid, it is going to take a long time to figure out where it came from. >> all right. david, let's turn to your piece for "the daily beast," entitled, "jimmy carter was actually a very good foreign policy president." quote, since carter left office in 1980, the two easy, misleading canned analysis of his life was that he was a mediocre president who became an exceptional ex-president, leading for decades by virtue of his service and lived valuings. it is common place to suggest that this was a presidency that was a footnote to history. one perhaps most notable because it ushered in the greatness of the reagan era. greatness is in quotes. as happens so often, in this case, this conventional wisdom is exactly wrong. carter was in virtually every

respect superior to reagan, especially in areas like foreign policy and the restoration of american leadership. indeed, even out of office, carter proved both more visionary and far more principled and courageous on world affairs than most of his successors were. carter's presidency was imperfect, but its contributions were clear and far more significant than he was given credit for while in office. later, as he began his famed and rightly hailed post presidency, it became clearer and clearer as a consequence of his actions in service of the country and the world, what an extraordinary leader he has been. david, yeah, i'm a little bit bias, but i would have to agree. i think, obviously, the iran hostage crisis was a real black cloud over the presidency and one of the darkest moments for jimmy carter. it did help feed into that

narrative. but there were unbelievable foreign policy, geostrategic mountains moved during that presidency. >> yeah, absolutely. look, carter is a nobel prize winner. carter organized the camp david accords. really a big breakthrough in terms of the middle east, very tough thing to get done. he oversaw the transfer of the panama canal back to the region, peacefully, smoothly, which was a big step forward in u.s. relations with the region. he oversaw the normalization of relations with china. he oversaw undoing the detente, the softening of relations with russia, and actually launched a tougher policy, particularly after afghanistan. he made big progress on moving us away from dependence on foreign oil, because that was what was pushing the economy in the wrong direction. he's the guy who put in paul

volcker, who began to do the work to get us out of the stagflation in which we were trapped. the list goes on and on. unfortunately, it's been obscured by essentially the campaign rhetoric that the reagan campaign launched at the end of the carter term. >> i don't think, though, it is a zero sum game. i have noticed some people saying things that i agree with, that carter had a very successful foreign policy presidency, but then saying he had a great one and reagan's wasn't that great. i think the two could be looked at working in tandem together, much like george w. bush and barack obama from september 15th, you know, 2008, until president obama got into office. worked together to save the economy. but let's talk about 1979 alone. camp david in 1979. stopped ground wars between israel and its arab enemies,

which had been a constant since 1948. the opening of china, it created the world we live in, globalization. even afghanistan, russia goes into afghanistan, and it's the carter administration that's pushing hard to help undermine russia there. that plus their response to what happened with solidarity in poland in 1980, stopping the invasion there with threats against the soviet union. that really precipitated the start of the downfall of the soviet union. that all happened in one year, 1979. as far as iran goes, yes, obviously, anybody in that administration would say it was a black mark. look more closely at it. look at the hbo documentary. you see how only jimmy carter's humanity, only his faith in humanity brought every one of

those hostages home alive. for him, that was more important than being re-elected president of the united states. you can't say that about too many presidents in our history. >> no. i think when we look at jimmy carter, as he is in the last days of his life here, one thing we have to acknowledge is we probably haven't seen a better human being as president in our lifetime. that matters. you know, that has shown through in his, you know, term in office, his compassion, and also in the long game. you know, he deserves a lot more credit than he gets. now, at this particular moment in his life, it is a good time to re-examine that and to question some of the myths that existed around him. because i think they're wrong. >> totally agree. columnist for "the daily beast," david rothkopf, thank you so much for coming on this morning. >> thank you, david. >> i mean --

>> obviously, your father would have disagreed. >> it is interesting you talk about the normalization of relations with china and ping coming to america. talk about camp david in '79. it's the story of my life. i was a little kid watching it happen there in the room. >> right. >> at camp david or there in the room at the dinner with ping. i feel blessed and had honored and also proud of what they were able to accomplish. it was hard. it's often not recognized in the way it should be. >> yeah, exactly. we're going to be, obviously, talking about this a lot more. still ahead on "morning joe," senior law enforcement officials say the u.s. marshal service suffered a major security breach. nbc's ken dilanian joins us ahead with that reporting. plus, we'll be joined by two members of president biden's cabinet. education secretary miguel cardona and commerce secretary gina raimondo will both be our guests this morning. first, assistant democratic leader jim clyburn and

representative seth moulton are standing by, going to discuss lost benefits to descendents of veterans. you're watch "morning joe." we'll be right back. . there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. and here. not so much here. if you've been diagnosed with chronic kidney disease farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may lead to death. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. and don't take it if you are on dialysis.

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and upset stomach. shingles doesn't care but, shingrix protects. shingrix is now zero dollars for almost everyone. ask your doctor about shingrix today. more than two years ago, we spoke with democratic congressman moulton of massachusetts and jim clyburn of south carolina to restore the g.i. bill, originally signed into law in 1944. right now, they are reigniting the efforts in the new congress and join us to discuss that push. it is great having you guys here. jim, how is it going? always great to see you, jim. how is it going? >> very well, thank you very much for having us this morning. it's always good to hang out with this joe, as well. >> exactly.

how are the efforts for the new g.i. bill going? >> well, we reintroduced it for the second time. seth and i did it last congress, and we did not get far with it. but, you know, i'm from the area of the country that says, if at first you don't succeed, try and try again. so we're going to make another effort in this congress, and, hopefully, we'll get some traction on this bill. it's much needed and worthwhile. >> it's gene robinson. explain to us exactly what your bill would do and who it would help. >> well, if you look at what happened after world war ii, many soldiers came back, having won a tremendous victory. and a lot of those soldiers were african-americans who fought to win that war on the promise of

america. but when they got home, the g.i. bill was put in place to basically educate them, to give housing to them, so they could get reestablished back in their communities. but the black soldiers did not get the benefit of it. in new york and new jersey suburbs, only 1% of those loans went to african-americans. the g.i. bill in 1947, out of 3,000, only two, not 2%, two went to african-americans. so you can't pass on the wealth if you don't get the benefits of it. so those soldiers who got the g.i. bill purchased homes, passed on that equity to their children, their grandchildren. black soldiers did not get it. so what we're doing with this legislation is asking for us to visit this issue, took a hard

look at what soldiers did not get, and look at what we can do for their surviving spouses, children and other relatives. >> congressman moulton, i grew up on a street that is right at the edge of your congressional district. on my street when i was growing up, nearly half of the families were recipients and beneficiaries of the g.i. bill from world war ii. my question to you, and with congressman clyburn there, as well, my question to both of you, but start with you, congressman moulton, what canpu more widely the fact of those benefits of the g.i. bill that can be accrued now to people who have been fighting our wars for nearly 20 straight years? >> well, it's a great question. because, as a marine veteran myself, someone who would not be here in congress without the benefits of the g.i. bill, and i

can say that confidently. i had no idea that this had occurred, that so many black veterans who fought alongside white soldiers and marines in world war ii were simply denied these benefits that they had earned when they came home. the two ways to gain wealth in america, and every knows, are getting an education, going to college, and having a home. those were denied to so many black veterans. it was actually a marine in my office who heard about this, brought it to my attention, and that's why i wrote this bill. when i looked for the first co-sponsor, i looked to the moral leader of our caucus and our congress, jim clyburn, so we can get it across the finish line. we're not doing this because it is politically easy. we are doing it because it's the right thing do. >> congressman clyburn, what do you have to say about making this more widely known? >> well, i think that we have to keep these kinds of efforts going. and we have to put a face on it. sergeant maddox, who did not get

educational benefits at harvard because they did not want to set a precedent. sergeant woodard down in south carolina who had his eyes punched out by a deputy sheriff and was blinded for the rest of his life, in his uniform, coming home from world war ii. we have named this legislation after these two sergeants. we think that their children and their descendents, many of whom i have met and have interacted with, we can get this across the finish line if more people knew that this had occurred. just think about the glory that we have given to the tuskegee airmen. yet, being heros in world war ii, many of them were denied the g.i. bill. we want to rectify that. >> congressman moulton, good morning. jonathan lemire. you're on the strategic

committee on strategic competition between the united states and china. primetime hearing this evening. first time for you guys to gather. give us a preview, please, of what you will be discussing. it comes against the backdrop of, well, a lot of china in the news. not just the covid leak from the last few days, but the spy balloon and the increased warnings from the u.s. government that beijing may look to help moscow in its war effort. >> look, china is in the news a lot, but a lot of people don't know what to make of it. what threat is china really to the united states? we know that our economies are closely intertwined and, yet, we also know if china invades taiwan, we could find america at war in the pacific, something we must do everything we can to avoid. so this hearing will bring a lot of those challenges to light. we'll bring in experts who have dealt with the china threat behind the scenes for a listening time. but the aim tonight is to take that threat from behind the scenes in the u.s. government and lay it out for the american

people. >> democratic leader jim clyburn and congressman seth moulton of massachusetts, thank you both very much for being on this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you for having us. coming up, the supreme court today will begin weighing the fate of president biden's student loan forgiveness program. we're going to speak with education secretary miguel cardona about the plan to wipe out an estimated $400 billion of debt. that is next on "morning joe." if your business kept on employees through the pandemic, getrefunds.com can see if it may qualify for a payroll tax refund of up to $26,000 per employee, even if it received ppp, and all it takes is eight minutes to get started. then we'll work with you to fill out your forms and submit the application; that easy. and if your business doesn't get paid, we don't get paid. getrefunds.com has helped businesses like yours claim over $2 billion but it's only available for a limited time. go to getrefunds.com, powered by innovation refunds.

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not have access to the middle class life that the college degree once provided. something is too much. i find it interesting how some of my republican friends who voight voted for the tax cuts and others think we shouldn't be helping these folks. something is too little. i believe my plan is responsible and fair. it focuses the benefit on middle class and working families. it helps both current and future borrowers, and it'll fix a badly broken system. >> president biden this past august announcing his student loan relief plan. today, the supreme court is set to hear arguments on that loan forgiveness program. the plan, which cancels $10,000 to $20,000 of student debt for each borrower who qualifies, has been on hold as it makes its way through the courts. two cases are in front of the justices. one, six republican-led states say they would be harmed financially if the program goes into effect.

the other involves two borrowers in texas who don't fully qualify for debt forgiveness. plaintiffs in both cases argue the government doesn't have the authority to cancel loan debt under the proposed rules of the program. the biden administration argues that a 2003 law gives it that power in the event of a national emergency, including the covid-19 pandemic. joining us now, u.s. secretary of education, miguel cardona. i guess, first of all, i'd like to thank you for coming back on the show. i'd like to start by asking you, where does this stand? are all loans and forgiveness loans halted at this point? >> everything is on pause awaiting the decision of the supreme court. as you said earlier, we are presenting our case today. we feel confident we have the ability to provide relief to over 40 million americans who need a little help getting back on their feet after the economic impact of the pandemic on their

lives. >> yeah. okay, so how do you make this fair, though? because i believe the concern might be that there will be future legal challenges. you know, there are many things to consider when you forgive some loan debt but not other loan debt. then you have people who have paid off the debt. >> right. as the president said, we believe it is fair. it is based on the pandemic. we know that after national emergencies, when loan payments are paused, when it is time to restart the loans, there's up to 20 times the amount of defaults than you'd normally have. we want to prevent this. this is why we've proposed targeted debt relief of $10,000 or $20,000 if you are a pell recipient, to help those folks get back on their feet. and as far as folks who say, you know, i already paid my debt, well, that happened prior to the

pandemic. this is pandemic-related relief that millions of americans need. similar to what the small business loan cancellations were a couple years ago, to help small businesses stay on their feet as a result of the pandemic. so we're helping everyday americans here. we're talking about teachers. talking about veterans. you know, i saw the piece with representative clyburn. you know, these veterans who fought for our country could use a little help getting back on their feet so they can make their payments, so they can continue with their life goals. that's what we're doing. targeted, that's what we're doing. targeted one-time relief based on the pandemic. >> mr. secretary, good morning. this has opponents. some republican states have suggested the president is overstepping his authority and it's harming companies based in their states. if you could, frame your arguments as to why you think

this is not just needed, but legal. >> look, asking millions of borrowers who are set to get some relief in those states where those republican officials are suing, they need the help too. people are trying to politicize this. we're helping blue collar americans that need help. it's targeted relief. 90% of this relief is going to people making under $70,000. it's targeted to those who need it. we're trying to prevent defaults. if the defaults go up, the local economy suffers. we want to make sure people can make ends people, provide food for their families, make their rent. this one-time support will help them. we're confident about that across the country. as i visit and talk to help, they needed a little bit of

help. the pandemic was a national emergency that provided major economic instability in so many people. we're trying to help over 40 million of those people. they're waiting and unfortunately we have some, so who have even benefited from debt relief in their past, talking against this plan that is aimed at regular blue collar americans who want to get back on your feet. >> mr. secretary, how often have you asked yourself the question or wondered about the question how it is in this terrifically wonderful nation of ours, this terrifically affluent nation of ours there is so much opposition to forgiving a student loan while large corporations and billionaires use lawyers and

accountants to trim the tax code and pay very little taxes? >> that's what the president said in his remarks. he's trying to make things fair. we're fighting for every day americans. when we're fighting in the supreme court, we're fighting for every day americans who need someone to stand up for them in washington. while previous administrations provided tax relief to billionaires we're fighting for every day americans and it's got to the supreme court. how unfortunate is that? we have people fighting this who their own constituents are going to benefit from this. this isn't a democrat or republican issue. it's an american issue. we're helping americans get back on their feet. the pandemic created such a burden on some that we believe that targeted debt relief is a

way to get out. we're confident we're going to prevail here. we're confident the american people need this to get back on their feet. >> secretary of education miguel cardona, thank you very much for being on this morning. we really appreciate it. >> happy to be with you. >> jean robinson, before you go, we want to hear about the dropping "dilbert" and free speech. >> a lot of people are going to be talking about free speech. the constitution guarantees free speech, but it does not guarantee that everybody is going to like what you say or people are not going to react to what you see. scott adams on his youtube show

last week just launched into this incredibly racist rant in which he said african americans are a hate group and they advise white people to just get the hell away from black people. so, what happened afterwards was the people who did business with scott adams, the newspapers who publish his comic and his book publisher, they all got the hell away from him because they didn't want to be associated with that sort of racism. the noted exception was elon musk on twitter who tweeted in support and elaborated that the media is racist now against whites and asians. this is -- i think -- we ought to take lesson on how speech

works. he had every right to say what he said and everybody had the right to say bye-bye to scott adams. >> gene, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest on a massive security breach involving u.s. marshals. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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guy who hates western democracy. >> doubling down. >> it's interesting. that thing has been the trump show for several years, but a lot of big republican names are just not going this year. >> several big names from the gop are opting out of the conference. we'll tell you where they're going instead. also, we'll explain how the biden administration explains to use legislation on computer chips to improve child care. welcome back to "morning joe." it's tuesday, february 28th. we'll get to our top stories now. the war in ukraine where president zelenskyy is planning ways to fight russian forces in crimea and take back the land russia illegally annexed. keir simmons is in crimea.

he and his team are the only western news organization having a presence in crimea. >> reporter: this morning president putin's war planes targeting bakhmut. russia is destroying ukraine's defenses there, president zelenskyy said overnight. calling for western aircraft. his objective is taking back crimea. in october an explosion rocked president putin's prized bridge to the peninsula. putin blamed ukraine's special services. we crossed into crimea by train. this is where that explosion hit this bridge last october at around this time in the morning. the bridge was fully re-opened just last week. inside the territory is teaming with russian soldiers. if ukraine plans to take it back

with force, many civilians will be caught in the middle. 2.4 million people live here. large numbers support russia. >> is crimea russian or ukrainian? >> russian. >> reporter: of course russian, forever this woman tells me. >> there's a bomb shelter over there. >> so what? >> are you frightened? >> reporter: no, she says, if it's needed, we'll go to a bomb shelter. if we don't defend our mother land, we'll become slaves. the west doesn't need russia. we need russia, this poster reads. olga, who is afraid to give her last name, tells all mothers weep for their children, both russian and ukrainian.

i can't speak about it without tears, she says. >> such a sad story. mike, you're not going to hear from administration officials, our top people, whether it's the military or at state, saying that there's a red line that will stop ukraine from going into crimea. talk to us a little bit -- it's been this way for quite sometime. they're not excited about the prospects of ukraine going into crimea, in part, because it would be a horrifically difficult operation, first of all. secondly, even before the war a lot of people in crimea consider themselves russians more than ukrainian. >> there's that, joe. you're exactly right, there's also the spectacle of the underreporting of the horrific

cost of the war, what's going on on both sides. for instance, the russian army, in quotes, isn't really an army, large elements of it. it's basically human wave assaults in crimea into ukraine and there have been minor reports of half of the human wave of prisoners who are scripted into the army assaulting ukrainian lines without weapons and the death toll is incredible on both sides. ukrainians, i don't know how much longer they can look for volunteers because they've had an enormous number of volunteers, which is a huge tribute of their love of nation. the expense of this war, not the fiscal expense, the human toll of this war is mounting to the point where something has got to give i would think. >> joe, white house

administration officials have quietly suggested that crimea would not be the best idea for ukraine. in fact, just last week in the days after president biden's visit to give it was suggested in a call, on a zoom with other leaders, they believe that crimea would be a red line for putin. meaning there are a few things in play. to mike's point, any attempt to fight to win back crimea would come at a heavy toll in terms of man and money. it's not a fight the u.s. thinks ukraine can win. they feel like that might be a moment to provoke putin to escalate the battle and use some sort of weapon of mass destruction. crimea for him is -- the u.s.

feels ukraine should not make an approach there. >> it's not just the united states. nato allies, many of them, especially the western wing of nato, feels like crimea is a bridge too far, literally a bridge too far. it will be too expensive for the ukrainians. also, if there is a red line in any of the territory the russians have control of now, crimea that's what they consider putin's red line. it's going to be a tall, tall ask for the ukrainians of their troops to go in there and just don't see it happening. let's bring in former chief of the staff of the cia, jeremy vesh. jeremy, you saw keir's reporting. is that a bridge too far? >> if you looked at putin's

speech last week, his state of union in moscow, he said essentially russia will never give up the territory it has been on since 2014. i want to sound a note of caution about this discussion about reigning in zelenskyy, that could have the negative effect of undercutting him as he fights this campaign to keep the west unified. i think the united states' position is right, which is that every inch of territory russia occupies, it is doing so illegally and eventually russia will have to leave crimea. the presence of russian troops in crimea posing an unacceptable risk to ukraine. i don't see how zelenskyy stops fighting with russian troops on their border. >> the new house select

committee on china will hold its first high-profile hearing tonight in prime time with tensions high. the committee chairman mike gallagher says the panel plans to highlight the threat china poses to u.s. interests. the committee will hear testimony from four witnesses, including former president trump's national security adviser h.r. mcmasters. meanwhile, a new report finds china-linked hacking goes beyond the spy balloon. crowd strike says it observed china-linked groups targeting 39 industries on nearly every continent. let's bring in nbc news justice

correspondent ken dilanian. what more can you tell us about this? >> reporter: i was fascinated when i saw this crowd strike annual global threat report they put out every year. it was a reminder of what a lot of intelligence officials were thinking, which is that wasn't even in the top ten most dangerous ways that china spies on us and this hacking problem, which i've been covering for more than a decade, is just getting worse. it's a slow boil and doesn't make the news anymore. it shows that china has a massive global campaign of cyber espionage. they hack into foreign intelligence. that's legitimate. the u.s. does that to them. they're also hacking into u.s. corporations to steal trade secrets. the head of cyber command called

it the greatest transfer of wealth in history. it's still going on. the head of intelligence for crowd strike who i spoke to yesterday said it's worse than ever. as much as we try to improve cyber security for corporations, the chinese are getting better and more sophisticated. they always find a way. 70% of these intrusions now don't even require malware. they stole somebody's password at the company and got in legitimately and they're in the network for a while before people even discover it and they steal lots of valuable things and use it to expand their economy and try to fulfill their plan to become the dominant economic power. >> ken, we're so obsessed about the spy balloon. you're right, it needed to be shot down and that is a problem. we had former cia guy on who said you wouldn't even put that

in your top 20 of the ways the chinese are posing a threat. i hear what you're talking about, but also the fact that, again, tiktok is -- it's a chinese state run company and everybody is inviting them in -- china into their phones and at the same time our phones -- are we going to look back 20 years from now and say why were we so stupid to allow most of the phones we're using, talking on, communicating, why are we stupid enough to get phones that were made in china and you throw it down there and you got seven governments listening to you and china could very well figure out a way to have an advantage over all those governments? by the way, when you say that, i know you've talked to government officials. you talk to government officials and they used to say turn your

phone off. now they say you can't bring your phone in the room because there's several governments listening to you through your phone. i mean, it seems insane. we've invited chinese into our businesses, into our government, into our homes. >> reporter: i'll give you another example, joe. most of the commercial drones or even toy drones you buy your kids are made by a chinese company called dji. our nbc news drones we use to shoot stories. they're the most common and best-selling drones. the u.s. government bans them. the pentagon won't let them on military bases. they say it's a chinese company and there's a threat the data will be turned over to the chinese government. it's hard to know exactly how real a threat that is, but that's the kind of thing that intelligence officials and defense officials are worried

about. there's a real conflict here between consumer demands and what the government says are real security risks. >> ken, another story you're following, multple seen your law enforcement officials say the u.s. marshal suffered a security breach. the incident took place on february 17th. the justice department has initiated a forensic investigation. what more do we know about this? >> reporter: this was a story broken by nbc news, by your justice team. we don't know if it's china. we're segueing from a china segment. this was a ransomware attack they say against a computer database. they say some data was stolen t. marshals issued a statement

calling it a major security incident. they say it was contained to a stand alone system. there's a lot we don't know. they're not saying whether there was a random demand, whether it was paid, whether anyone was threatening to make information public. i spoke to one official who said it was a database about fugitives and they down played the significance of it and said if it became public, it's not a big deal. if fugitives know what the marshals do know and don't know about that, that could help them evade capture. we're told the witness protection program was not in any way compromised by this attack. we have no indication that their mission in protecting thousands of federal judges was compromised. look, a ransomware attack against a major federal law

enforcement agency is an alarming development. >> ken dilanian, thank you. today the biden administration is looking into the chips and science act, the bipartisan law passed last year that allocates tens of billions of dollars to u.s. businesses. along with a lengthy application process and due diligence checks, manufacturers need to comply with some of the administration's public policy agenda like, affordable child care and limiting stock buybacks. joining us now the u.s. secretary of commerce gina ramondo. this is the chips act in action. tell us how it's going to work

and what's required and what the goal is. >> good morning. it's great to be with you guys. the goal here is to make a once in a generation size investment in our national security. your prior segment talked about china and how we can protect ourselves. the chips act is an investment in america. as you know, mika and joe, right now we're in a very vulnerable spot in that we purchase 90% of our chips from one company located in taiwan, which is untenable as the president has said. this will allow america to make leading-edge chips in our country with american workers which will enable ourselves to continue to lead the world in technology. >> madam secretary, good morning. we heard from the president quite a bit about the economic

impacts from this legislation, from the chips act going into effect in the months and years to come. hoping you could speak about the announcement that the manufacturers seeking a slice of the federal subsidies to make this happen will have to do a few things, including affordable child care, limiting stock buybacks -- we may have lost the secretary. mika and joe, we lost the audio there, which probably a lot of guests would prefer when i'm talking. >> not prefer it. just a lot of guests pretend they can't hear. >> it's my job to make fun of him. >> we'll get back with the secretary while they're fixing her audio. let's go to jeremy. jeremy, this is actually

something that our government is not that good at doing. there has been times after sputnik in '57, '58, there was a huge push for students to take science and math and a lot of kids in the late '50s early '60s went to school on a scholarship because of sputnik. here we're doing it again with chips. talk about how absolutely critical that is. from time to time there's a concern -- in the late 1980s there was a concern that our nuclear weapons would not work if the japanese held the chips from us. then two years later boom, intel, and the whole world changes. we find ourselves in a vulnerable position again. talk about that. >> this is industrial policy. it's an effort to reclaim the

supply chain dominance. we no longer manufacture the world's leading edge technology with respect to semi conductors. this implemented now today is a landmark bill that says we'll invest almost $50 billion in manufacturing leading-edge technology here in the united states. they're going to be all around the country, probably in arizona, ohio, maybe texas, new york, a number of places where there's going to be a number of public private partnerships linking together manufacturing, universities, the whole supply chain. so the united states is no longer reliant on taiwan, although taiwan is a friend, no longer vulnerable to china's dominance in semiconductors around the world.

>> we understand the secretary can now hear us. >> she's back. >> secretary, we were asking about some of the requirements, the affordable child care, the limiting of stock buybacks, talk about the importance of that and how that plays with the overall goals of the bill. >> thank you. it's all about making sure these companies are effective to meet the mission. in order to build every one of these facilities it will require maybe 7 or 8,000 construction workers. the unemployment rate in the construction trade in some places is 1%. we need to recruit women. that requires them to think about child care. the same thing for inside the facilities. you know, as president biden said in his state of the union,

this will create over 100,000 good jobs in these facilities, technicians, engineers, designers. we have to upscale people, including women, which means child care. with respect to stock buybacks, these companies ought to be investing in research and development. we need to lead the world in technology. semiconductors are in everything. there's no artificial intelligence without chips, same with quantum, same with cloud. there's a lot at stake here. we're saying to these companies work in partnership with us so america can lead and win. >> obviously education is a key to these jobs that are being created. the president of the american federation of teachers praised the chips act on twitter writing, we should be using high schools and community colleges as the hubs that they are and

ensure they create key roles in training in the semiconductor industries. randi joins us now. talk about working alongside those people putting together this policy and legislation for the american people and also getting the people ready for these jobs that are being created. >> thank you, mika and joe. people see us as talking education all the time as opposed to what jeremy and others said, which is we need an industrial policy in the united states and i see what the president did here and what the secretary is doing here in this application as essential as what happened with the gi bill, as essential with what happened with president kennedy and the moon shot. what it does is creates a pipeline. all too often in high schools -- i was a high school a.p. teacher

in a career tech ed school. we focus on college. that's really important, but we don't create pathways for kids from high school to job and career. that is what the secretary has done here, which is working with companies starting with high school and community colleges as hubs, creating those pathways for the designers, to the technicians, for the engineers and creating workplace partnerships with high schools so we can help create this pathway for high school students. i'm really excited about this. i think it's going to help hugely with some of the things you said earlier in the day about making sure kids see a future for themselves, which will help reduce anxiety and depression. >> secretary, you've clearly thought a lot about this issue, as have a lot of people.

jeremy was talking about the semiconductor market and suppliers from taiwan and south korea. my question to you is a simple one because i'm a simple person. how did we fall so far behind so quickly? >> yeah, that is a great question. we took our eye off the ball of manufacturing. so often we think research and development leads to manufacturing. new products we can make. we forgot that manufacturing leads to more research and development and innovation. quite frankly you can't be a great country without making critical products in your country. so, you know, 20 years ago there were hundreds of thousands of americans making chips in american and then in search of cheap labor and in the name of efficiency it all moved to asia, principally taiwan. but at the same time we let -- we continue to lead the world in design and software, but

software isn't enough. probably you know yourself you see top notch engineers coming out of school. they all want to be coders or designers. we got to get back into the business of making chips in america. by the way, innovating so we can make them economically. i also wanted to say with respect to randi's comments the chip industry tells us there's going to be a 90,000 person short fall in semi conductor technicians if we don't train people. last week i said let's train 100,000 semiconductor technicians at the end of the decade. after president kennedy issued his moon shot, we tripled the

number of engineers produced in this country. so game on. >> i was going to ask randi to follow up on that. do you think our high school kids are ready to take these high tech jobs? are there things that schools and parents need to be doing more to get our kids ready? >> that's a really good question. the answer is we've done some of this seeding with all the perkins money that has been spread about career tech ed. career tech ed is not the old vocation al schools. it's how do we create credentialing for kids? we have the kind of programs, take some we've done in new york city and the secretary is saying let's do this with the chip

industry. i've seen that kind of program that can be set up where a young adult is in a regular high school for a half day and a career tech high school for half day and then they can get these kind of credentials from their junior and senior year and then from a community college so that they're ready day one after graduation for some of these technician jobs. it requires certain science, applied science and applied math courses that we can build. what we need to do for 100,000 young adults, we need to scale it. we have not scaled this career tech ed in the last ten years. what i think the secretary's plan is, it's giving us with industry an opportunity and ability to scale, particularly in the areas where we are creating these manufacturing hubs. >> if people are sitting out there going, wait a second,

we're not sure whether the government should be doing this or not. let me tell you something, everything that you see all the technology breakthrough you've seen, it goes back to that post-sputnik investing. the government got involved with it, the focus on science, the focus on technology, it created extraordinary growth. mika, i'm glad we have leadership that's having the vision to do that again now. >> i like the child care aspect too. u.s. secretary of commerce and president of the american federation of teachers, thank you both very much for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you. former chief of staff of the cia and the department of defense, jeremy bash, thank you.

still ahead on "morning joe" several big names within th republican party will not be attending cpac. we'll talk about what this means for the future of the republican party. plus, we're two months into the new year and we've already seen some major moves for women in leading positions, including government and corporate giants. we'll talk about the significance of that ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back. i look back with great satisfaction on my 32 years of active duty. i understand the veteran mentality. these are people who have served, they'e been in leadership positions, they're willing to put their life on the line if necessary and they come to us and they say, "i need some financial help at this point in time."

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♪♪ many of the republican party's biggest names will not be attending the annual cpac in maryland this week. potential candidates including ron desantis, mike pence and virginia governor glenn youngkin

will not be there. ronna mcdaniels, mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy are sitting out as well. this comes as matt schlapp faces a lawsuit he fondled a male aid would consent in october. his lawyers says he denies the allegations. none of the politicians that said they are not attending have cited schlapp's allegations for why they're not attending. the event which in years past was one of the biggest events for conservatives will feature speeches from former president trump, 2024 candidate nikki haley, congresswoman marjorie

taylor greene and others. what do you think, joe? >> i think it's early. >> it is early. >> you corrected yourself. there was no allegations about matt and herschel walker. it was an aid to herschel walker, not an aid at herschel walker. >> it is early. i apologize. >> no, no, no. it is early. this is fascinating because this is where reagan would always go. this is where every sort of conservative star used to go. then at some point it became obvious that it was -- it was going far afield. you would have -- it became libertarian gathering, not republican or conservative. that's when you had ron paul and rand paul winning every presidential straw poll there.

it's sort of this feeling like, seriously? am i going to waste my time at cpac when they're going further and further mainstream? they still held on to mainstream republicans until this year. it's amazing how many are saying no. >> i think, joe, that there's been that cranky libertarian thing that popped up at cpac and had whatever flavor of conservatism was in any given year. what happened to cpac is it became impact. it became the maga political action committee and conference. trump first spoke there in 2011 and was received rapturely with his version of what became the make america great again trump platform, attacking china,

attacking immigrants, birtherism and trump was trying to figure out -- had never been a republican. never been a conservative. cpac became the workshop for his early political development. he was like i'll be a political figure and try to figure out how to be a republican. his version of radical grievance-based nationalist politics took shape there. every time he would come in 2011 he thought about getting in the race. then in 2012, 2013, 2014 every time he came back, there was a bigger crowd and they liked the message more. that was the launched place for him. he has owned that space since then.

it's not only that a lot of stars are staying away, trump will have his big stage. we'll see whether he's lost it or he's back. a lot of people are like let trump have it. go forth and do what you're going to do and have fun while ron desantis goes out and hits the book trail and vice president mike pence hits the trail in south carolina. others are saying take away cpac's power. coming up -- >> cambridge dictionary going work. >> ai programs going woke. >> the army going woke. >> my little pony is going woke. >> captain american going woke. >> wordle is going woke. >> video games is going woke. >> woke media. >> woke universities. >> woke prosecutors. >> guess who's going woke?

the muppets. >> not kermit too. >> why are republicans going after wokeness instead of going after biden? political analyst amy walters tackles that question just ahead on "morning joe." n just ahead on "morning joe. ♪ ♪ - why are these so bad? - if i would've used kayak to book our car, we could have saved on our trip instead of during our trip. ughh - kayak. search one and done.

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coming up, we'll speak to congresswoman barbara lee about her run for u.s. senate. she joins our conversation on "morning joe." nversation on "morning joe."

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everyday pressures can feel overwhelming it's okay to feel stressed, anxious, worried, or frustrated. it's normal. with calhope's free and secure mental health resources, it's easy to get the help you and your loved ones need when you need it the most. call our warm line at (833) 317-4673 or live chat at calhope.org today. welcome back. in the last month and a half three prominent female leaders have resigned. that includes former new zealand prime minister, scotland's first

minister and in the tech world youtube's ceo announced she was moving on. here to talk about these resignations and possible ramifications the editor of forbes women, maggie mcgrath, also huma abedin. maggie, let's talk about these resignations. what do you think they mean? >> it's easy to feel discouraged, especially when you seeing the data we saw last year, it showed that senior women were leaving the workplace at higher rates than senior men. it feels concerning. if you take a step back and look at the date about the tenure for the ceo, it's five to seven years.

if you look at these three departures, we see one for five years and the others serving since 2014. it's high profile, but part of the natural leadership cycle. i don't think it's a cause for major concern. >> you know, these women used certain language in these resignations that stood out to me as language men wouldn't use. burn out, references to family. i actually think this is a good thing actually think this is a thing, because the workplace gets better as we learn more about each other and what one needs to be retained for a long period of time. also, there is reasons sometimes when you need to take a step sideways or back in order to move forward. do you think there's a difference, though, in terms of the language these women were using compared to what men use?

>> what struck me is different is i called a few different sources for a gut check. we agree we're hard pressed to think of a man who said i don't have enough left in the tank, the way jacinda ardern said. i've given it my all and i can only do it for so long. these women are showing emotional intelligence. i think they serve as models. i think we need to see more people who can recognize boundaries and communicate those to others. in the private sector, we've seen surveys that show that upwards of 90% of u.s. workers want to see compassionate leadership styles from their leaders. while these women are leaving their leadership posts, i would argue their resignations are leadership in action. >> huma, you spent your career in politics. you worked very closely with hillary clinton, an icon. what does it say to you when we

see resignations like this? does it cause concern? >> i think this is very modern leadership in modern times. being a woman in politics even in normal circumstances is pretty unforgiving. i remember a time when showing any emotion as a woman politician was a sign of weakness, but here you have women who have governed in the midst of a global pandemic in heightened political partnership exacerbated by social media. so to be able to say i have these mental health challenges, family issues, what is is good for my constituents, i think that's good and healthy. i do think it's a warning for those of us interested in politics that there is much work to be done. brookings had a report that there's still an ambition gap when it comes to women running for office in this country, that even though we are 51% of the

population, less than a third of us are elected leaders right now. we have to be conscious about telling women they are qualified to run and that they should run. that's a global thing. there are only 28 countries in the world that have currently women heads of government and leaders. it's a great sign of leadership but also a reminder that we have to encourage women to get in the game. >> yeah. maggie, i feel like there's a lot to be learned for companies here in terms of not only retaining great talent, how to do that, but making sure there's a bench. >> indeed. i actually called gloria felt. you'll recognize her name because she is on the 202250

over 50. i asked her is there a succession planning problem here? she said it doesn't have to be a disaster. it could be if we don't heed in moment. she said we need to be taking women with us. look at the women on the younger rungs of the ladder at your organization. who are the ones looking for opportunities, looking for growth? find those women and help them identify those stretch projects. i can't tell you how many women founders and ceos i talked to who cite the men as taking them along. this moment can be a moment of lesson and not a moment of crisis. >> well, this is exactly what we're going to be talking about, the challenges that women face in the workplace and in their lives at our upcoming 30/50

summit in abu dhabi, which is taking place on the days around international women's day starting march 7th through march 10th. we've already announced a remarkable line-up of speakers, including hillary clinton, catherine o'hara, billie jean king, gloria steinem, jessica alba, also the first lady of ukraine. huma, we're so excited that we'll be broadcasting "morning joe" show live from abu dhabi for part of next week's event. it includes an iconic conversation on wednesday, which is international women's day with several of those women who have fought tirelessly for women's rights. tell our viewers what they can expect. >> we are calling it an iconic conversation, because we have three women who are generational voices of leadership and change, hillary clinton, billie jean

king and gloria steinem. they have led the way in terms of breaking barriers in politics, journalism, feminism, equality. but i think they'd be the first to tell us that there's a lot more challenges that women face around the world. i think what we want to hear from them is the lessons they've learned, how they've overcome challenges, how they can inspire this next generation about our future. they're going to be joined by a woman whose story is being written as we speak, the first lady of ukraine who has been thrust into the spotlight as she manages this conflict alongside her husband and is both a symbol but also a voice on behalf of this humanitarian crisis. >> huma abedin and maggie

mcgrath, i'll see you both next week in abu dhabi. thank you. head over to forbes.com. coming up, how to beat donald trump in a debate. our next guest says weak willed opponents are playing right into the ex-president's hands. the ex-president's hands with powerful, easy-to-use tools power e*trade makes complex trading easier react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity

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do you or someone you voted for struggle with a serious chronic condition commonly known as bs? >> i was not a drag queen in brazil. >> bs is a rare but treatable disease whose symptoms include lying about your resume, name, criminal status, volleyball scholarship, helping sick kids and dogs, lying about your mother dying in 9/11 and every single aspect of your life.

fortunately, there's hope. you can help politicians suffering from bs with a donation to the government emergency organization regarding growing epidemics. george santos. with your large and generous contribution, george santos will fight bs, giving your congress people more time to steal puppies from the amish. help beat the bs. >> i'm president michael jordan santos and i approve this message. >> really funny and sad. welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at capitol hill as we step into the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. we have a lot to get to this hour, including the book tour that feels a little bit more like a rollout of a presidential campaign for florida governor

ron desantis. plus, new polling on how desantis stacks up against former president trump among republican primary voters. also california congresswoman barbara lee will be our guest. the democrat is now in a crowded field running for diane feinstein's senate seat. and we'll look at new legislation coming to capitol hill in response to the train disaster in east palestine, ohio. we begin with florida governor ron desantis now on a book tour that many see as a soft launch to a presidential campaign. hallie jackson has the latest. >> reporter: overnight, florida governor ron desantis making the case he knows how to fight for conservative causes. >> you have to have the courage of your convictions to stand strong. if you do that and people see you're willing to fight for them, they'll walk over broken glass to vote for you.

>> reporter: the republican governor widely expected to run for president. there is a new campaign style video. >> florida is leading the nation. >> reporter: and the apparent support of jeb bush. >> i think we're on the verge of a generational change in our politics. i kind of hope so. who better to do it than someone who's been outside of washington. >> reporter: desantis has a new book out today framing himself as a warrior against so-called woke culture. desantis avoiding directly confronting donald trump. a new poll shows mr. trump with a double digit lead over desantis and both of them well ahead of the rest of the potential gop pack. former president trump mocking his possible rival. but desantis hasn't really hit back, instead laying out what he describes as florida's blueprint

for the country pointing to his own records on everything from covid to education. multiple sources tell nbc news that any campaign launch, if he decides to run, would probably come in june. advisors insist the governor's attention is focused on what's happening at home, like the bill he signed monday that strips disney of its long time self-governing status in florida after the company came out against the state's don't say gay law, which limits how gender and sexual identity can be discussed in some classrooms. he warned disney's ceo about the company's political activities saying do not get involved with this legislation. >> nbc's hallie jackson with that report. joining us now, the publisher and editor in chief of the cook political report amy walter. also with us, political strategist heather mcgee, board chair at color of change, the

nation's largest online racial justice organization. and her best-selling book "the sum of us, how racism hurts everyone" has been adapted for young readers. amy, you recently published an essay in the cook political report entitled "why are republicans going after wokeness instead of going after biden." a navigator survey found that inflation tied for second place. for the last couple of years, republicans have used a war on woke to rally voters. one of the biggest targets for anti-woke legislation is transgender issues and kids. democrats would rather fight republicans on issues where they have a noted advantage, like protecting social security and medicare than on things like gender identity, where their coalition is divided.

so will the war on woke become a general election theme or will it be sunseted once we get past a primary and the focus goes to the economy, inflation and other topics that joe biden is currently vulnerable on? if 2022 is any guide, it is the latter. i guess what i'm thinking is that joe biden actually has a lot of points on the board when it comes to the issues of inflation and the economy. it may not be perfect, but i would think that the focus on wokeness is because they don't want to look at the points on the board or talk about real issues where i think the biden administration has answers for. >> well, i think so much of it, mika, is what motivated the republican base right now. that's clearly where ron desantis is focusing. as your piece laid out, this is about a primary.

ron desantis' job is to win over a significant swath of republicans who, while they may like donald trump, they don't necessarily want to see him as the 2024 nominee. so how does he appeal to those voters without, one, getting into the cross hairs of the trump machine which will go after him? and, two, show that he is just as engaged on the issues that inspired people to donald trump in the first place. that's where this war on woke really is about. what we see about abortion was, you look at the polls and the percent of people who say they don't think that joe biden is doing a particularly good job on the economy is pretty high. about 60% of voters think the job he's doing is not that great on the economy or inflation. then you ask those voter who is somewhat disapprove of him, especially in this last

election, they somewhat disapproved. for those voters, while inflation was important, it wasn't as important as the issue of abortion was to them. so the numbers on the economy may not be telling us the whole story. there are a lot of voters out there who are unhappy with inflation. that doesn't mean, though, they are going to choose that issue over other issues when it comes to the general election. that's what democrats are looking at right now, which is someone like donald trump or someone like ron desantis who leans in on these divisive cultural issues can really alienate them from the independent voters they need to win in the fall campaign. >> that's so interesting, because if it's trump or desantis, you talk about a potential pivot of a primary. would either of those candidates pivot?

the whole woke thing is their sweet spot. >> that's right. ron desantis has been doing something interesting. one of his ads was he was literally in a fighter jumpsuit thing talking about going after the liberal media. the other was him in this sort of fuzzy warm, i'm just here as a fighter for your families. so being a fighter against, can he transition from that i'm in the cockpit going after the libs to i'm here fighting for your families? he's been able to do both in florida. but as we know, these primaries are going to be long and drawn out and he's going to have to be very deft in how he handles those things. >> heather, usually candidates pivot to the center eventually. donald trump never did. that worked for him in 2016 by

the slimmest of margins. certainly didn't work for him in 2020. it occurs to me that this argument is anti-wokeness perhaps that republicans are pushing seems to be -- and we can argue the term woke for another day, but it seems to be these are ideas aimed at a small sliver of the electorate. yes, that's going to help you in the primaries. but we saw in 2022 it didn't pay off for republicans. they hammered home culture issues and it didn't resonate. does it feel like republicans are walking into that same trap again? >> they definitely are, because they don't have the high ground on the issues that actually keep up working families at night. can i pay for my kids' college? can i ever afford to buy a house? do we have child care? are our children going to be stuck with rising seas?

all of these issues, climate change, student debt, child care, good jobs in america. the first half of the program was talking about the biden administration going to the mat for working families on these issues. today the supreme court is going to consider a republican attack against the idea of liberating a generation to be able to invest in their own futures instead of paying interest back to the government for doing what the entire country told them to do, which is to go to college. this is the agenda and all of this book banning, right wing censorship is fringe. it's not popular. 88% of the country believes we need to teach all of american history, the good and the bad. legislating ignorance is not popular. attacking the most vulnerable, young children and trying to say what parents should and shouldn't do with some of the hardest decisions in their lives, not popular. >> one of the lessons from the

trump era is by the end of it, americans werexhausted. as a strategist, talk to us about where you see some vulnerabilities in the democratic message. >> i think there's always been a trepidation about responding to the cultural issues. we have a democratic party that is pretty good, although not always consistent, on talking about the economy and jobs. they get a little scared of their own shadow when you have the right wing coming full bore talking about dr. seuss. that's crazy to me. i think it should be easy for democrats to clearly say we have the moral high ground when it comes to freedom in this country and our children's freedom to learn. they want to keep the facts and

the truth from you because they want you divided and distracted. politics should be doing some things, fixing the education system so it gives a high quality education to every kid in america, making sure there are good jobs, making sure the wealthy pay their fair share. what they shouldn't be doing is empowering cranks to take books off the shelves in public libraries. what they shouldn't be doing is getting between you and your doctor when it comes to your own decisions. they really need to be as vocal about protecting our children's freedom to learn, bodily autonomy as the right wing is about putting politicians in places they shouldn't be. >> speaking of yanking books off the shelves, you're putting books on the shelves with the young readers adaptation of "the sum of us, how racism hurts everyone." tell us what young people will take away for this special

edition adapted just for them. >> the most common response to the adult version is this was a really hopeful book about race and racism. i think now more than ever, young americans who are in the america that's becoming already, they're already in the most diverse generation in american history. they need to know the way that racism has impacted so many of the issues they care about, from climate change to student debt to housing and education and how ultimately we all stand to benefit, black, white and brown from coming together to address the legacy of racism in our society. it's a positive, uniting message in this time when books are being attacked for being divisive. it's a book that middle school and high school students can

unite around and parents can read with their children as well. >> "the sum of us" is available now. thank you very much. we appreciate you both being on. now to this, dominion voting systems has dropped a new bombshell in its $1.6 billion defamation suit against fox news. a new filing reveals rupert murdoch admitted he allowed some fox news hosts to spread false claims of widespread voter fraud in the days following the 2020 election. that's despite privately expressing that he had seen little evidence for then-president donald trump's claims. in response to direct questions about fox news hosts maria

bartiromo, jeanine pirro, lou dobbs and sean hannity, murdoch responded, quote, yes, they endorsed. he was asked why he continued to allow mike lindell to make election fraud claims on fox news. according to the court documents, murdoch said it was a business decision. quote, it is not red or blue, it is green. murdoch also confirmed that he could have exerted some control over the network, most notably by telling fox news ceo susan scott to stop putting rudy giuliani on the air, but chose not to. a dominion spokesperson issued this statement late yesterday. quote, dominion is a strong believer in the first amendment and its protections. as long-settled law makes clear,

the first amendment does not shield broadcasters that knowingly or recklessly spread lies. fox news has defended its coverage and issued a lengthy statement last night calling the lawsuit baseless and a, quote, blatant violation of the first amendment. it is election day in chicago. voters are heading to the polls in the mayoral election. a wide field of challengers is casting doubt on incumbent mayor lori lightfoot's chance at reelection. nine candidates are on the ballot, all running as democrats. if no candidate gets more than 50% of the total vote, the top two will face off in a runoff on april 4th. how is turnout? >> reporter: i can certainly tell you that early voting turnout is looking around triple

the numbers that we have seen in the past two municipal elections. when it comes tole polling we're looking at nine candidates vying for this spot. according to independent polls we've seen, in the lead is former chicago school ceo paul vallas and lightweight and chuy garcia and brandon johnson. it's no secret that lightfoot's favorability is nowhere near what it was roughly four years ago when she was elected here. she made history as the first black openly gay female mayor in the city. of course declining. favorability isn't uncommon with mayors. being a mayor in a large city

like chicago during a pandemic was no easy feat. you had the 2020 uprising and riots here. you had tensions with police and conversations on the or how policing should change. you had covid, the impact on lives, livelihoods and businesses. then you had coinciding increase in crime. you had carjackings and gun violence that rose. you had chicago incidents like the square off between the teacher's union in chicago and the city and the inability for them to find a deal actually meant that a lot of students missed school. you had her handling of all of that under an intense microscope. when it comes to seeing results, unless a candidate gets more than 50% of the vote, this will go to a runoff on april 4th.

that is looking likely. what's not looking likely is we'll even know who's going to that runoff by 7:00 p.m. tonight, especially with all of this early voting by mail. >> marissa parra in chicago, thank you very much for that report. today two house democrats are expected to introduce a bill to increase rail safety regulations. the legislation would broaden the definition of what is considered a high hazard flammable train and make them subject to stricter safety requirements. it's in response to that norfolk southern train derailment earlier this month along the ohio/pennsylvania border. that train did not have to follow certain rules because it was carrying less hazardous material than the current threshold requires. the biden administration is creating a new task force to crack down on migrant child

labor in the u.s. after a "new york times" investigation found children who have been crossing the southern border without their parents are ending up in jobs that disregard child labor laws. it is also raising concerns migrant children are being discharged from federal custody too quickly. and the national center for missing and exploited children has launched a tool to help teens and kids remove explicit images of themselves from the internet. the group partnered with meta to create the take it down platform. it allows young adults world wide to submit an anonymous report about explicit or intimate images of themselves posted on certain online spaces. while the new tool cannot remove photos everywhere online, it can block or delete them across participating platforms and social media companies. coming up, it's shaping up as one of the marquee primary

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♪♪ a beautiful shot of san francisco for you this morning as we wake up. it's half past the hour, just about 6:26 in the morning on the west coast. the race for retiring senator diane feinstein's seat in california is shaping up to be one of the most competitive and expensive in the golden state's history. three candidates, baa bra lee, katie porter and adam schiff have already announced their campaigns. representative row canna is weighing a run as well. with us now, one of those

contenders, congresswoman barbara lee of california. it's great to have you on the show this morning. what defines you from the field? >> nice being with you this morning. first of all, i have had a history of being a very clear progressive black woman who really understands the issues that california faces and cannot only maintain my values as a fighter, someone who can stand up for what is right, but also my ability to deliver and negotiate legislation and to really be there for people who haven't been seen. the economy in california has to work for everyone. right now there are 20 million people living below the poverty

line. when you look at the climate crisis, homelessness and the issues around public safety, the issues that are impacting so many people, so many families in california, i've had lived experiences but also i brought them to the legislative bodies both in the california legislature and in congress to solve problems of everyday people. i want the california voters to understand i see them, i fight for them and i'm going to help them. >> you have some formidable opponents and one who's already received the endorsement of nancy pelosi. so what issues make you the choice to have this seat? >> when you look at the issues of inequality, the economy has to work for everyone and it's not. so i believe voters will understand and will believe when we talk to the voters that i will see them, i will make

affordable child care is available. i've raised two sons as a single mom and had to take my children to college with me because i could not afford child care. the climate crisis impacting california with fires and floods and low income communities that don't have the resources for mitigation efforts, when you look at the issues around unsheltered people, we have a real moral crisis in california as it relates to making sure that everyone in california benefits from the economy. right now, inflation, what's going on with people who are living on the streets unfortunately and the 20 million people living below the poverty line, we have to address their needs, their issues, lift them up and bring their needs and aspirations to the senate. i believe that many of those

issues are being not seen, not heard and not debated. i've had the experience to deliver for californians. i intend to continue that in the senate. >> i was hoping we could talk more about one of the issues you identified, which is climate change. i remember going with the former president as a couple of wildfires in california. california seems so vulnerable and fragile to the impact of climate change. what is your message? >> head on, we're trying to make sure that we declare climate change crisis. of course, our planet is burning. california, unfortunately, has so many wildfires, floods,

impacts on low income and vulnerable communities, i think what we must do is look at how we can send resources to california for mitigation efforts. we have some of the strongest laws in california as it relates to reducing greenhouse emissions, reducing all of the issues that impact our climate. what we have to do, though, is fund. i support the green new deal, for example. i support creating good paying union jobs as a result of our green economy and helping people put panels on houses and solar panels on buildings. we have to look at the environmental impacts and create good paying jobs that will help the economy in california. we have some very clear laws and regulations in california that i believe the federal government needs to look at and execute on

a federal level. >> congresswoman barbara lee of california, thank you so much for coming on the show. coming up, author and msnbc coast midi hasan is our guest. .

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emphasis on human development. thank you. >> where did that come from? >> what happened? i blacked out. >> well, that was interesting. thank you very much. your rebuttal, mr. carville? >> we have no response. that was perfect. [ applause ] >> that was how will farrell won his debate in the 2003 kmoe di comedy old school. our next guest is encouraging people to not necessarily avoid arguments, but instead seek them out as the life blood of democracy and the only sure fire way to establish the truth. mehdi hasan joins us.

he's out with a new book called "win every argument." i want to hear how you do that, but also how you do that in the age of disinformation. >> that's a great question. one reason i wrote the book is because there is so much disinformation around and so many bad faith actors and so many ruining debate for the rest of us. i love arguing. i see it as a fun thing to do. i also see it as philosophically politically important. unless you can have good faith disagreements, democracy cannot survive, a free press cannot survive. i wrote this book to try and say here's why it's important, here's how you do it and here are some tips to deal with the disinformation merchants. >> i like that you give advice, top three tips to ensure you don't lose your cool during

tough conversations, breathing, laughing and self-talk. what's that? >> self-talk is what i might be doing right now. if you're sitting live on tv, the best story to keep yourself calm from the science of the university of michigan, you talk to yourself in the third person. right now i'm very nervous and i'm saying you got this, you got this, stay calm. >> you do got this. the last thing is really important, because i think in the debates and a number of times in situations where joe biden, the campaigner was presented or confronted with some argument donald trump was making or some comment but especially in a debate scenario, the instinct might be for many democrats to say oh my god,

you're so stupid, you're so anti-democratic, you're so fascist, come up with a response for what is being said that matches what it is because it's so unbelievably untrue. instead he would just laugh. it said so much more, didn't it? >> humor is social glue that brings us all together. it's a good way to identify with your audience. you want to have the neutral third person, the audience identify with you. humor is a fantastic way of doing that . it's also a good way of mocking your opponent. i talk in the book about cicero, who understand the importance of [ laughter ] when it comes to winning a debate. >> an excerpt was published in rolling stone specifically asking whether former president

trump's name calling is a good debate technique. you write in part, yes, in theory you should attack the merits of the argument and not the person making it. but in the real world playing the ball and the man can prove to be a rather effective and often nose necessary tactic. it can win over a skeptical crowd and give you the upper hand. it's not necessarily a salacious argument either. to win over a skeptical or divided audience, you need to establish your own authority and expertise while challenging your opponent's. for that, you do sometimes need to rely on add hom anyone ad hominem arguments. donald trump comes up with

names, he attacks, he gets ugly, spreads lies, defames people, he's racist. he'll use any game in the book. you're not suggesting that they play the same game of disinformation or inappropriate behavior. what are you saying? >> donald trump is not the best example of a case of ad hominems. people say ad hominems are bad. they do work. the reality is jeb bush was knocked off course by low energy jeb, lyin' ted did have a ring to it, so did little marco. donald trump is the master of the abusive ad hominem. i think that's a valid point to bring up in a debate.

i'm saying you need to challenge your opponent's credibility in order to challenge their arguments. >> you say in your piece there are a couple of time tested techniques to win an argument. one of them is the rule of three, which i'm fond of when i write a lead for a story, but also the art of the zinger. how do you pull that off? >> one of the most famous presidential zingers was from 1988, lloyd benson and dan quayle which is i knew jfk, you're no jfk. looking into the history of that, benson didn't come up with that on the spot. in fact, an aide, a former congressman saw the line about

jfk. benson got annoyed in a practice debate and said do that line. even these classic zingers, people have worked on them. i think you have to strike the balance between being ready with a good one liner, but also have that authenticity and passion to deliver it. it's walking that fine line between practice, preparation and spontaneity and passion. >> you also write a good way to end the argument is to end it well. sometimes that's to leave an audience wanting more. that's impossible on a four-hour morning show. times of winning an argument, though, what does that mean? >> what you really have to do is

not stop abruptly. i'm sure you've been to an elector where it ends with, thank you for joining me, that's all i have to say. don't do that. you've got to escalate at the end. people won't remember what you said, but they'll remember how you made them feel. you want them to leave that place thinking, wow, that person got through to me. i talk a lot about appealing to people's hearts. too often in debates, people talk about facts and figures. that's not how you win an argument. you appeal to the heart, not just the head. >> the new book is "win every argument, the art of debating, persuading and public speaking." the mehdi hasan show airs sundays at 8:00 p.m. on msnbc

and tuesdays on peacock. thank you so much for coming back on the show. it is one of the most popular apps in the world, but federal employees now have one month to wipe it from their government issued phones. we'll explain why, next on "morning joe." we'll explain why, next on "morning joe." moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin

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devices as the social media app comes under increased scrutiny, just the latest push to crack down on the chinese built platform. nbc news technology correspondent jake ward has the latest. >> the clock has started ticking for tiktok and 4 million federal workers. the white house announcing monday that government agencies have 30 days to delete tiktok from their devices and systems. the move comes after the chinese owned app was banned by congress from federal devices in december. it's part of a growing backlash tied to social security concerns. byte dance could give access to data or manipulate what users in the u.s. see. 41 state haves some sort of ban on state-owned devices in effect or under consideration. as a result, students in places like mississippi, arkansas and texas have not been able to access tiktok on school networks for weeks. >> i'm 18. we're all 18. like let me share my information

with china if i want to. i literally could care less. >> reporter: kate teach chemistry at the university of texas austin. >> my students share frustrations, they don't like being told what they can and cannot do. >> for kate the chemist on tiktok, it's personal. >> i think if there is a federal ban or anything, we will all just shift to another platform that allows us to be creative. >> reporter: a tiktok executive addressed concerns at a capitol hill hearing last year. >> we have said under no circumstances would we give that data to china. >> reporter: yet the app remains one of the world's most popular pass times with twice as many downloads as its closest rival you tube. a nationwide ban for all americans under consideration by a handful of senators seems unlikely but has influencers worried. >> i'm a little terrified. i'm not built for a real job. >> reporter: the prospect has caused some outside washington to wonder whether tiktok really does have too much of our attention. >> this may be a good time to

reconsider your relationship with this app. >> that's nbc's jake ward with that reporting, and we'll be right back with a look at the stories making front page headlines across the country. e headlines across the country ralph, that's the chewy pharmacy box with our flea and tick meds. it's not peanut butter. ♪ the peanut butter box is here ♪ i'm out. pet prescriptions delivered to your door. chewy. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today.

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a final look at the morning papers, the arizona daily star highlights a study finds covid-19 infections may increase your risk of developing an autoimmune disease. research suggests a person without an autoimmune disease may be 43% more likely to develop one after a covid infection. those who already have an autoimmune disease and were infected have a smaller chance of developing another disease. the study has yet to undergo a peer review. in texas, the houston chronicle reports more immigrants are filling the truck driver gap. since 2000, the number of foreign-born truck drivers has nearly tripled in the state to about 94,000 people. immigrants now account for a quarter of all truck drivers in the state. and the springfield news sun reports blood donor participation is low in ohio. officials say last year some regions reported a 50% drop in business hosted blood drives

compared to 2019. they say the pandemic, quote, changed the way people worked and lived, resulting in lasting challenges to maintaining an adequate blood supply. we'll be following that. and that does it for us this morning. lindsey reiser picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. p the coverage in 90 seconds