hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. today we start with a question. if a news network provides a platform to people spreading dangerous claims that are not supported or backed by a single shred of evident and the host peddle conspiracies that they know at the time are not backed

up by the facts and when everybody from the tippy top all the way down to the company knows that that network is broadcasting lies to millions in america. should anyone still call that network a news network? it is a question worth asking today about fox news. in light of allegations by voting machine company dominion. we are still for our part pouring through court documents filed by dominion. those documents are filled to the brim with stunning revelations and evidence that fox news knew at the highest levels at the time that it was broadcasting misinformation to its audience. misinformation so dangerous that it led to death threats, harassment, ultimately it led to a deadly terror attack, so described by fbi director chris wray on the u.s. capitol dominion knew that sidney powell had never entered into an agreement to represent donald

trump as his attorney. yet, she appeared on fox news over and over and over again. here is what lou dobbs said on december 10th, 2020, with sidney powell. >> my first guest tonight has new information regarding electoral fraud in the radical left's efforts to steal an election. we have tremendous evidence already of fraud in this election. >> lou, frankly nobody else over there had in, let alone tremendous evidence, so the statements were completely false and according to dominion, dobbs admitted during his deposition in the lawsuit that he knew the statements were false. and here is sidney powell on fox news on november 14th, 2020, talking about the baseless conspiracy that dominion had ties to venezuela.

>> the money came out of venezuela and cuba and for the purpose of altering votes an secure the re-election of hugo chavez and then maduro. they used it in argentina, there is an american citizen who has exported it to other countries and it is one huge, huge criminal conspiracy that should be investigated by military intelligence for its national security implications. >> i want to laugh, i really do. but what is to terrifying is that they knew that what powell said there was completely and totally false. it happened on the same day that according to dominion, the chairman of the fox news empire, the head of the whole thing, rupert murdoch, quote, responded to an article about election fraud sent by news corp ceo robert thompson saying, quote, but where is the evidence.

and even as fox executives and hosts and staffers asked that very same question and came to the conclusion that there was no evidence to back up claims like that and other claims of massive voter fraud. they put people who were making those claims on the air over and over and over again. and here is why. this is what rupert murdoch had to say about the pillow guy and mike lindell in his deposition, according to dominion, the man is on every night, pays us a lot of money. first you think it is comic and then you get bored and irritated. rupert confirmed that he could tell fox to stop running lindell's advertisements, but i'm not about to. and when asked why fox continues to give a platform to lindell who continues to this day to spout lies about dominion, murdoch agreed it is not red or blue, it is green. wow! in a statement fox news accused

dominion of taking an extreme unsupported view of defamation law that would prevent journalists from basic reporting. as the "new york times" reports about the defamation suit itself put forward by dominion. they shu smoe that fox broadcast false information and did so knowingly. there was a month long trial to begin in april. what fox news and when it knew it about the election fraud falsehoods broadcast on their airwaves is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. andrew weissmann is here. he is a former justice department prosecutor, former senior member of roberter mueller special council investigation. also joining us, former republican congress david jolly is back with us. he's the co-chair of facts first usa. and with minute at the table, jeremy peters, covering this case, lucky for us, they're all msnbc contributors. jeremy, you did some fantastic

reporting sort of taking us inside not just the suit, but also what it sort of dug up and what we now know about things that were visible to all of us, things that were broadcast on their air. but that the way that we could now pull all the way back from producer, reporter, anchor, management at fox news network and then all the way up through fox corp and its board members is extraordinary and new. >> and it shows what a frenzy was set off inside of fox news from as you say the top on down that they were losing their audience. that their audience was turning on them. because they started out by telling the truth, right. that donald trump first was going to lose arizona and then he was going to lose the white house. and in his bed for a second term. the backlash was so fierce and we now know from the emails, so panicked executives at fox that murdoch was instructing the ceo to tell the producers what to put on the chyron at the bottom

of the screen. >> and what was it? >> it was too anti-trump. i don't know what they changed it to. but he also criticized -- >> this is very -- it is not like they said big fat loser, right? >> right. >> they called an election. so everything short of trump loses was a lie. but they even wanted what was on the bottom of the screen to not reflect reality. >> bigger than that, they actually made hiring and firing decisions based on what they thought their audience wanted because their audience, they knew, was so mad at it. bill madden, the head of the d.c. bureau in charge of the arizona call, rupert said at one point in an email that we've now seen because of the suit, maybe it is best to let him go. because that is -- to throw the audience a bone, effectively. and that is how panicked they were and beholden to their audience they are. because as dominion has argued in this case, they were seeking ratings and profit recklessly

over the truth. >> so when does the panic over the ratings turn to panic over the lawsuit because the other person that gets fired is lou dobbs. >> mm-hmm, that is right. and the clip that he showed is a few examples of really, really strong statements that lou dobbs and mary bartiromo made that dominion could make a strong case that these are defamatory. so not only do they get rid of the person who made the arizona call, they clean house of people like dobbs, who started this. fox knew that this lawsuit was coming. that is why they've hired one of the best, most expensive trial lawyers in the country to defend them. and -- >> that is not their first legal team. >> it is not. because it was -- the case was going so poorly over the summer, they get rid of the first legal team and are now using another one. and you know, defamation cases

are by design of the law very hard to win. what you have to do is effectively get inside of the heads of the people in fox news. well, these emails and text messages from the murdochs, from the executives running the network from hosts like sean hannity and jeanine pirro, go a long way toward telling us exactly what they were thinking. >> i think of your body of reporting and specifically your reporting on steve bannon and what you brought, i think, to readings and viewers is that he was in on the joke in his mind. that he knew the things that he was saying were not true. >> bannon. >> bannon, yeah. and do you see a parallel between fox news, that describes fox news to a t from the top to the bottom. >> maria bartiromo who said in her deposition, that she did not believe any of the claims. she doesn't believe that sidney powell was credible even though she was the first on fox to host her as a guest.

she was privy to information about sydney powell's source. the source was a woman who was so deranged that she claimed to be able to talk to the wind and that the wind told her that she was a ghost and that she was capable of time travel. knowing that, maria bartiromo put sidney powell on the air as a source, a credible source and did not tell her audience that. so what dominion could claim is that that was so reckless of maria bartiromo, that that effectively is defamation and fox should have to pay. >> so andrew weissmann, my question for you is whatever happens from 4:10 p.m. today on, we know that fox knowingly lies to its audience as a business model. we now know, as jeremy described, the panic is felt after accurately calling the results of an american presidential election.

it forced them to change not just who they are, but what they do. they started peddling knowingly lies on to the airwaves. and you can't blame a bunch of rogue actors, anchors. they knew at the top of the company, they knew at the board level, paul ryan and others, they knew from the top to the middle, to the anchors, they also were in receipt of 3600 communications from dominion, in case any of them were unclear on the facts. they received and acknowledged receiving information correcting what was being broadcast on that network. how did they get themselves in this legal position, which doesn't look very good. >> that is putting it mildly, nicolle. to say it is not looking good. i mean, it is inconceivable that the judge is going to grant summary judgment for them and in which case they will be facing a trial and they will have to decide whether they really are

going to let the public see all of this dirty laundry and actually hear from these people. i just want to underscore just how serious this is. i remember adam schiff after the first impeachment was asked about what was going on and comparing it to watergate and he said if watergate happened now, it wouldn't be the same result. why? because of fox news. and that gives you a sense of just how powerful they are in spinning their audience and riling them up. and it was impossible to escape for me the parallel which is admittedly imperfect between fox news and what our team and the special council investigated for almost two years which was russian disinformation in the 2016 presidential election. well, this is an american

company that an american news organization that is peddling misinformation with truly deadly consequences, that could have been far worse. but if you're people who were attacked on january 6, if you are election workers who are threatened, you have to be reading this saying, your goal is of money, as rupert murdoch said, of green, it caused me damages. so you could imagine this is not going to end with just dominion bringing these suits. you could imagine other people seeing this evidence saying i was harmed by what they were doing out of greed. >> say more about that. are you sort of describing a class, a class-action legal effort? >> well, i don't know that there would be a class-action. but you could imagine election workers, ruby freeman saying,

you know what, the people who really riled people up, who incited all of this knowingly, that is the key, are from fox news. the people on january 6 who were carrying in congress, who were afraid that people who were attacked, the people who died, all of those people have potential claims against fox news. and it is not like this is unforeseen. it is not like the people in fox news had no idea that their really dangerous rhetoric was going to lead to this kind of violence. now there is a lot of issues when you bring a case like this. in terms of showing intent, showing causeality, evidence. but you know, dominion, this kind of suit is some sort of way of deterring what it is that fox news did here and i really think that the quote that you had

about rupert murdoch saying this isn't about red or blue, it is about green, is really the critical one. and you could imagine how that is going to play to a jury that is saying, yes, and we're going to take that green incentive away from you when they consider not just the sort of compensatory damages, how dominion was hurt in terms of its pocket book, but they get to also decide punitive damages which is what is the additional amount of money that is going to send a message to fox news and anyone else who is going to engage in this kind of disinformation campaign. and i have to say, that is so important because it goes to the fundamental issue of are we going to have correct information on the news. obviously people could make mistakes. but that is not what we're dealing with here. we're really dealing with a

network that is comparable, not identical but comparable to the russian disinformation that we investigated for 22 months and frankly those -- that disinformation campaign from russia led to criminal charges. so, you know, this is really serious because of what it undermines in terms of our democracy. >> so andrew, with that frame, which certainly elevates the -- you read the filings and it is clear that something huge is going on here. and if you're a student of fox news, when i was a republican, i used to appear on fox news and to watch how it turned into something so different, i mean, i am old enough to remember that if a democrat became president, fox news viewed that as the better business opportunity. so to see the corporation melt again from the top, from the rupert murdoch level down through management and the board to the powerful anchors and everybody underneath them into something that depended on lies, depends on disinformation as its

business model. truly it represents a transformation of that network even on its own terms. but i want to understand how -- how this part of the filing might further dominion's argument, the efforts to do something different from the top that were rebuffed. let me read this to you. this is from the filing about fox news network executive raj shah and it is about powell's lack of evidence quote, on november 20th she communicated with the producer from tucker carlson to address a affidavit sidney powell is offering as proof of fraud. might want to address this but this stuff is so -- my control room doesn't want me to read this verbatim, f'ing insane. i don't think it is wise to revisit tonight beyond addressing the affidavit. her claim, not new info and proof and pivot to being differential, we hope she's able

to provide the evidence in court and will bring it to viewers when they do. the next day shaw again offers this advice to trucker carlson suggesting this, we shouldn't engage the powell interview. this is an opportunity to discredit here since it is totally insane. it is just, in all caps, mind blowingly nuts. and yet, here is what happens on the air. when fox repeatedly aired clearly false allegations about dominion, shaw ignored the truth and sat on his ability to intervene. it erases a bunch of lines from understanding, one, that management wasn't intimately involved in editorial, and two that management wasn't trying to inject what they knew the facts to be and we knew from the lawsuit 3600 missives came from dominion, so from the top of the company, tony fratta who worked at the bush administration and had executives that he worked with, we west virginia worked with paul ryan. so many different points were in

receipt of the actual facts. pushes and pushes and pushes their most watched anchor to make these disclaimers to walk away and they just can't quit the poisonous, what they view as sort of toxic disinformation. >> so, i think it is important to know what position fox is taking right now in court. in the light of this evidence, they have a two-pronged strategy. one is to say that a whole bucket of information that dominion is complaining about are just opinions. opinions that were given by anchors and by guests who were on. and the second bucket is not opinions, but if they said the second bucket is that fox news wat not endorsing what the speaker was saying. even though, just to be clear, rupert murdoch in his deposition said, yes, they were endorsing. that is the real problem.

is they're trying to walk away from something that the head of their company admitted was going on in terms of endorsing. in other words, they didn't just present newsworthy information and let it play out and then present the other side. they actually endorsed that information knowing it was wrong. and then they have a legal problem on the opinion side because if you let somebody go on and give an opinion but you know it is false, and you repeatedly have them on to do that, what dominion said is that is actionable and it is not protected by the first amendment. that is a legal issue that the trial judge is going to have to decide before this goes to trial. but, i suspect that there is no way that dominion is not going to be able to get to a jury here. and here, you know, i think a jury listening to the proof will be shocked by as mr. peter said, that they were including firing people who were advocating being truthful with the audience.

they were saying we need to get rid of those people because it is going to hurt our stock. and this really is where you have the business of news and the sort of profession of news in conflict. where rupert murdoch shouldn't be saying it is not red or blue, it is green. he should be saying it could be green all you want, but there is a line we will not cross, which is saying something that is knowingly false and that is why they're in a lot of hot water. and based on this evident, for very good reason. >> so, david, jolly, if there is one thing that has not lost its grip on -- on my fury in terms of what the republican party i once knew ushered in, it is the silence of people who know better. so in that spirit, let me read you this from the filing. an exchange between paul ryan and rupert murdoch. quote, on january 12th, paul ryan discussed with rupert and

atlantic lan murdoch about how the right-wing created an if alternative reality for news. and where the enablers of january 6. paul ryan believed that, quote, some high percentage of americans thought the election was stolen because they got a diet of information telling them the election was stolen from what they believed were credible sources. rupert murdoch responded to paul ryan's email, quote, thanks, paul. it is a wakeup call for hannity i who have been privately discussed for weeks and scared to lose viewers. david jolly, it is a wake-up call for everybody, including paul ryan who went along with good people on both sides, and grab them in the you know what because whether you're famous, they let you. it is a wake-up call for everybody. he remains silent. and for paul ryan, the fault line was people who believe the election was stolen and participated in january 6. but the very same thing could be said and sure sean hannity is

guilty, but so is everybody else who stayed quiet and nodded along. >> that is right. and nicolle, it is clear from these documents that fox news platforms the most dangerous voices in american culture today. not in the past, but today. because many of the people named in the documents who knowingly provided disinformation are still doing so tonight on issues that are anti-democrat at the group or xenophobic or racist in their ten or. so these actors still live on. and when i say they're the most dangerous in culture, and not news. because as we've discussed, it is not news, it is disinformation on american soil by money american corporation so it leads us to i think to some hard questions. who are the people behind it and that includes paul ryan, that certainly includes the corporate leadership and the board leadership and the anchors and producers whoever they may be at fox news. it also raises a question of what we treat as news in

america. i mean, we are now probably 20 years in that question of what should be designated news and rightfully the government doesn't have a role in that. but perhaps it is time for industry to provide some type of self-designation for what is news and what is programming. and then the final hard question goes to your point of what is the breaking point for any of the republicans involved. it is clearly not platforming and insurrection against the united states and its democracy and the republic that it is. because fox news contributed culpably to the insurrection on january 6. that is what we learned from this. they knowingly provided zis information that fueled an insurrection against the united states and they did it on a corporate platform where they are seeking protection. and my one hope out of this case is that actually the attorneys for dominion get to shatter the protections that apply to a news organization. and say if they were knowingly providing false information, there is no way that fox news should reach for protection that journalists are provided because

that is not what fox news is engaging in. particularly in the prime time hours. >> david, i made the comparison yesterday to some of the big product liability cases. if on the other side, is there a warning on the screen like there is on cigarettes. maybe a better one is you read some of the more famous newsworthy cases against pharmaceutical companies, how they knowingly kept writing prescriptions for shipped opioids to pharmacies and they knew they were being misused. what is the post dominion landscape look like for the fox news viewers? >> look, this is a hard question for whether or not industry could regulate itself. there are thousands of panels on this. i participated in one last year and suggested perhaps truly industry could create a set of rules where they provide a medallion to a news organization that contributes a person percentage of their hours to news and the rest to opinion and certainly there could be on the field if it is pure disinformation like fox news.

because at the end of the day, we do live in a society where we should not regulate speech, we should not regulate journalism or the press but perhaps there is a consumer protection angle, if you want to call it programmings, you could say whatever you want, but it should be a word of integrity within the industry that tries to keep america educated. because the history of journalism is that if it did not exist, we would have corrupt people in power and look at what fox news did. they failed to provide the journalistic check on corruption in power and they actually enabled it and empowered it. so does fox news lose viewers over there. no, only they lose viewers if they don't go far enough. they were going to lose market share to oann. i don't think there is a fix that comes out of -- >> we lost david jolly but we're going to fix his hookup and he sticks around. let me give you a quick last

word, jeremy. what is the mood inside of fox news? >> well, clearly they are back on their heels. usually in these cases the murdochs settle. they settled for hundreds of millions of dollars that had much lower stakes. the fact that this is going to trial shows you how dug in both sides are. typically you don't see the ceo, chairman and chief legal officer of a company facing depositions of this kind. >> andrew weissmann and jeremy, thank you for starting us off. we'll get david jolly back. when we come back, continued fallout from kevin mccarthy's decision to give this very same network, fox news, early and exclusive actess to january 6 footage. republicans today comparing the giving the unedited release of the tapes to tucker carlson to the january 6 committee exhibits shown to the public. okay. plus we're learning more about how the ex president used the power of the white house to silence his critics.

state sponsored censorship in peak hypocritical trump form and later in the program, one of the many, many young survivors the matt shootings in schools was motivated to again shine a spotlight on the tragedy in his home town. he used his moment in the limelight to maybe share with americans who aren't aware of what that is like to face up to who we really are when it comes to gun violence. we'll show you that moment and have that conversation when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

♪ i like to move it, move it ♪ ♪ you like to... move it ♪ we're reinventing our network. ♪ ♪ ♪ fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service. republicans today are defending house speaker kevin

mccarthy's decision to keep a promise hand over thousands of hours of january 6 security footage to tucker carlson and fox news and the other now outed liars over at that network, footage that democrats say is so sensitive it could be used as a road map for another subsequent insurrection. one of the things gop leaders steve scalise tried to argue when answering nbc questions today is that the january 6 committee had already released highly sensitive material and airing footage of the secret service whisking former vice president mike pence away. narrowly avoiding the pro-trump mob storming the capital. he did not say that the committee released that security footage with at approval of and in coordination with the u.s. capitol police. joining us now, democratic congressman richie torres of new york. he's a member of the house select committee on china. thank you for coming back. so what -- what are these sort of colliding stories, how do

they manifest there? is there -- i don't want toute alternate reality, but is there a parallel reality where the revelations about fox, the home of tucker carlson sort of have to be compartmentalized as speaker mccarthy hands over to tucker carlson 40,000 hours of security footage. >> i have no objection to release of the security footage as long as it is done in a manner that is consistent with security. it is one thing to release it but it is something else to release it to tucker carlson who is a january 6 denier. there is no one more recentless than denying than tucker carlson and releasing the footage to a january 6 denier like that is as absurd as appointing marjorie tar loy green to the homeland security committee. so i feel like i'm lived in an alternate reality with republicans in the charge of the house. >> and there are new reporting

that marjorie taylor greene was pro-release of the tapes to tucker carlson. you make a point about tucker carlson. i mean, ted cruz agrees with christopher wray who destroyed it as a act of domestic terrorism until he showed up on tucker carlson's show and in excruciating interview, said that is not what i meant. why do you think kevin mccarthy is now participating in this re-writing of the january 6 narrative? >> look, it is all about pandering to donald trump. kevin mccarthy was against january 6 denial before he was for it. fox news was against election denial before for it and as actual about placating the extreme far right, the maga republicans and it is outrageous. january 6 was one of the worst assaults on the u.s. capitol in american history and i remember vividly with my third day on the job, members of congress went to

a secure location and i'm concerned that could reveal the places where the members of congress and vice president was brought and leadership was brought. it is not something to be taken lightly. >> and the truth is, we saw that even josh hawley went running for his life. on that day, everybody acted as though they were afraid of the threat. why -- why is the thing that may have caused republicans gains in the senate and in the midterms and in a much smaller red waver than they were promoting and predicting on fox news, why isn't it something you think they're doubling down on? it is not politically popular or rooted in facts. is it back to your point about who mccarthy is owned by? >> look, i lived through not only the insurrection but the longest speaker vote in 164 years and what is crystal clear

that the republican party is hostage to the far right. that is become undeniable. and it is discerning toer our democracy. but extremism is not only bad moral, it is bad politics. everybody was widely predicting a red wave in 2022 and instead you have nothing more than a red trickle because of donald trump, because of january 6, because of the reversal of roe v. wade, the american people are punishing the republican party for its extremism and instead of moderating, the republican party seems to be doubling down on the fin atticism of the right. >> and you sought to draw the public's attention to the brazenness of george santos and again kevin mccarthy beholden to a brazen liar. what do you make of his standing and the fact that he's still there? >> look, george santos has more scandals and lies than the rest

of the congress combined. mr. santos by his own admission is a terrible liar which is the most honest thing he's ever said. but more than a terrible liar, he's a liability for the republican party. and deservedly so. when a party allows itself to become a cult of personality around a fraudulent figure like donald trump, snake oil salesman like george santos will follow. so i see george santos not as an isolated phenomenon, but as a symptom of a deeper rot which is donald trump. >> so what have the republicans in terms of political opportunity sort of handed you all with? i mean -- seems like he's capable of walking and chewing gum and pushing back on the republican shenanigans. but privately and on television everybody seems committed to staying united and pursuing an agenda. what is sort of the legislative and if it is not much political opportunity for democrats right

now? >> look, for me, i don't see it in terms of political opportunity because i would prefer to have a normal properly functioning two-party system in america. but what we have is only one party serious about governing and the other is essentially a cult of personality. i'm confident that democrats can win on the strength of the merits of our policy agenda. we passed the largest investments in clean energy and infrastructure and veteran health care. we want to win on the merits, we do not want to win because of the extremism of a republican party that sows doubts about the integrity of our democracy and an election with a huge assist from fox news. >> it is amazing. those are the battle lines that the republicans have drawn for themselves. never boring and i know you're just back today. stay in touch and keep us posted when think of the stories percolate. it is great to talk to you. thank you for spending time with us. >> absolutely. up next for us, from fox news giving their viewers what they think they want, the leader

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yesterday, trump told his 2,000 lie since taking office. so happy y 2 k. 2,000 lies. this is why darth vader had the good sense to wear a helmet.

[ applause ] >> i got a trump signature duffle bag which is made in china. i have a trump signature shoe bag which is made in china. i got a -- something for my son, a toddler bib just like the one the president wears where he eats cheeseburgers in bed. made in -- want to guess where this one was made? >> china? >> no, peru. but we're getting closer. >> so for so many of us, humor was how we got through it. late night laughs and the absurdity of the trump era. in that way it was like a lot of presidencies that came before it. but the difference was that the one person who wasn't laughing was the notoriously thin-skinned questionable billionaire himself. rolling stone quotes two administration officials reporting this. in early 2018 trump directed his staff to call top diocese executives to demand action against jimmy kimmel.

in two separate phone calls that occurred around the first time of the first year in office, the white house conveyed his fury with jimmy kimmel to disney. trump felt that kimmel had, in the characterization of one former administration official been very dishonest in doing things that trump would have once sued over. kimmel took to his show last night to respond to the revelations and the claims from who he calls president karen. >> all he does is make fun of disabled journalists and he calls our veterans prisoners of war, even losers and he insults his opponents and his friends an family and i if point out that he's so fat they renamed air force one, i'm the one that -- >> and i wonder if fox news is screaming about censoring comedians, will they defend me on this? i doubt it.

we have a first amendment right that is more than what donald trump died for and it is hypocritical coming from someone who claims to be the biggest anti-censorship defender of free speech. >> let's bring in boston globe writer, we'll deal with the serious and then the sublime. donald trump tops the latest poll that i saw on fox news for the republican primary. and that is not interesting to me as a political story. it is interesting in that in a force in american life, as someone who may again pull the levers of power, it is important to understand what he tried to do with them and what he would do absent the very few and seemingly feeble guardrails that existed last time. and censoring, not just news but entertainers was clearly something that he tried to do last time. >> yeah, think jokes aside, the

point you make is an important one. what he was doing from the very beginning was trying to extend executive power far beyond its constitutional limits. i know a lot of people on the right complain about the first amendment and free speech and cancel culture and in context that hav with the constitution like a newspaper decision to drop a comic strip. but in this case, this is exactly what the first amendment was meant to prevent. this is the leader of the free world, the president of the united states, trying to use his power to silence a television show. that is squarely in the face of violating the first amendment. and it is just one of many examples as you point out of donald trump's abuse of power. i think we hear so many things about this and because this is surrounded by jokes, it kinds of gets normalized but it is an important constitutional point that shouldn't be lost. >> david, the first time trump

tweeted about me when i was a host on the "view" and i remember thinking holy -- he watches the "view." this is somebody who obsessed that his reflection in any form, we covered so much of his war against the press, i think "the new york times" publisher met with president trump to explain that calling them enemies of the world, but he was just as obsessed with what jimmy kimmel said about him and what whoopi goldberg said about him, and obsessed with anywhere his name was mentioned and sought to, as pointed out, use the levers of power to silence or punish those people. >> you know, i have to ask, are we talking about donald trump or ron desantis. for a very specific reason here. nicolle, look, we go back to this time frame we're talking about and donald trump, we know glass jaw, he would come after

you. but you lived there this, you had to be on point, what if he came after your brand value as a corporation. so for abc and jimmy kimmel, this is not something that they could fully make light of to have the powers of presidency come down on the brand value, the enterprise that is abc and jimmy kimmel's show and you move from the power of the office for financial reasons, financial arm twisting if you will, to actually what he wanted to do which was-e pronounced he wanted to roll back protections for news media and entertainment. it is exactly what we are seeing in florida right now with the desant is disney war. and there are moves by today's republicans that follow donald trump to try to weaken protections for news journalists and entertainersch it is a scary time for the united states. >> want to keep this growing and i have to speak in a break. and stick around and we'll have

that conversation about florida's quasiauthoritarian leader going from banning books to having a big outside influence on what kind of entertainment is available for your family and your kids. that is next. at is next th

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for children in need. childhood without food is unimaginable. get fed up. call us now or visit getfedupnow.org today. florida's governor, republican ron desantis, completing his year-long takeover against the walt disney company. he signed a bill yesterday, stripping the company of its decades long self-governing authority and created a new

state appointed board filled with ultraextreme conservative donors. ron desantis, who has clammed the company for what he calls its "woke" idealology, wanted to put people on the board who would tell the truth about the type of entertainment all families can appreciate. david, refresh my memory, what did disney do wrong? disney said that discrimination and the -- you know, disney wasn't really alone, it just happened to be the most powerful and largest employer in the state. so desantis seemed to try to squash a power center. talk about all the important things we should deduce from this. >> so disney leadership spoke out last year against ron desantis' bill, and remarkably did so after it was enacted.

desantis used the power of the state to seek retribution for speaking out against him. but families across the country, they are allies of the lbgtq community. you can write a thesis on the power of big or less government. i look at this through a qualitative lens. the takeaway is what is most disturbing. ron desantis, through his war on these communities, needs to be looked at on behalf of a party that is trying to take us backwards to white christian america. what he said about the board members he appointed to oversee disney's taxing district, he won't be happy until it's a small world is a cruise through christian white america. that's what he wants to accomplish. that is now his constituency. that is the danger. if he is the republican nominee in 2024, the danger he presents is different than donald trump's willingness to shred the

constitution. ron desantis presents a cultural danger of trying to take america backwards and not have us look forward. >> kim, it's so alarming, and what's so amazing is that just from a cold, political calculation, it's not his best argument. i mean, if ron desantis wanted to take a winning message to the country, he would cherry pick some economic indicators, maybe differentiate himself from donald trump and his treatment of covid. that really fires up a lot of people on the right. and it's how, in the state, he grew his base outside the fringeiest. but he's abandoned that, and he's sort of out, christian conservative out discrimination. he's now a one-man culture war. i wonder what you think about how that choice plays as the days and weeks wind on. >> look, he's showing who he is. he either truly believes this,

or believes that this is truly what the republican base is all about, a and that's what will win him the presidency in 2024, or both. so i think everything david said is exactly right. i think not just on the political aspect on this, even on the law, he's signing this law into place. there was a world in which he could have framed this as a move to protect business or the interest of florida, and it would pack muster. but because he himself is saying he's punishing disney, and he's punishing them for their wokeness. i suspect disney will challenge this law and will probably win. but maybe that will give him something else to use politically. but he is being just as anti-constitution as donald trump in this, and also going far beyond his executive authority, signaling what he

might do if he gets to the white house. >> it's really, really stunning. really important observations from both of you, thank you both so much for spending time with us. so much more news straight ahead. don't go anywhere. news straight ahead. don't go anywhere. qulipta® can help prevent migraines. you can't always prevent what's going on outside... ...that's why qulipta® helps what's going on inside. qulipta® gets right to work. in a 3-month study, qulipta® significantly reduced monthly migraine days... ...and the majority of people reduced them by 50 to 100%. qulipta® blocks cgrp-- a protein believed to be a cause of migraines. qulipta® is a preventive treatment for episodic migraine. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and tiredness. learn how abbvie could help you save on qulipta®.

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more guacamole? i'm on a roll-ay. how about you? i'm just visiting. u.s. bank. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with retail banking in california by j.d. power. some breaking news from colorado springs, where overnight at least five people were shot and killed at a lbgtq nightclub. >> apparently seven people have been shot and killed in a mass shooting at a top's grocery store. >> a shooting at robb elementary school in uvalde, texas. >> a school shooting with

reports of multiple fatalities, this time in santa fe, texas. >> last night's deadly shooting here in monterey park, california. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. it's horrific, right? uncomfortable. unbearable almost. this shouldn't be the case, but here we are, mass shootings in these united states of america are so frequent that we can put together a reel like that. didn't take very long. they happen in places of worship, at grocery stores, at nightclubs, at spas, even elementary schools have been targeted. college campuses. nowhere is immune. nowhere is safely completely any more. it's not even march, and according to the gun violence archives, there have already been 94 mass shootings in america in 2023. they classify mass shootings in which four or more victims are shot orvilled. these 94 mass shootings have caused the deaths of 140 people.

moms, dads, kids, daughters, sons, grandparents. dead. because we choose to live like this. we have reached a point where americans are now experiencing more than one, living through more than one mass shooting in their short lifetimes. a college student at michigan state university, two weeks ago lived through the trauma of losing four of her fellow college students when a gunman opened fire there. had also survived the sandy hook shooting in 2012 when she was a child. think about that. bipartisan gun control legislation was signed into law last year, the first time in 30 years, it falls well short of what gun safety advocates have called for. the gun violence epidemic in america is so prevalent, it's become near impossible to avoid.

there are fears of what active shooter drills are doing to our children. we are becoming numb to those news cast. moments like what we saw on sunday night, when viewers who settled down to watch "american idol" saw a powerful and emotional exchange are so important. watch what happens when trey lewis from santa fe, texas, this is after he sang and asked, what are you doing here? >> man, so, "american idol" number one is kind of where people that i enjoy. number two, as i said before, i'm from santa fe, texas. in may 2018, a gunman walked into my school. i was in art room one. he shot up art room two before he made his way to art room one.

i lost a lot of friends. eight students were killed, two teachers were killed. and it's really been negative. santa fe has had a bad wrap since 2018. what are you doing, katie? >> our country has [ bleep ] failed us! >> facts. >> this is not okay. you should be singing here because you love music. >> that's true. >> not because you have to go through that [ bleep ]! >> i agree. >> you didn't have to lose eight friends. i hope that you remind people that we have to change, because i'm scared, too.

>> it's terrible, katie. horrible. >> the young faces of the victims of gun violence bursting into public view is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. shannon watts is here. shannon, you tweeted this video, my friend julian retweeted it and that's how i saw it. thank you for bring thing young man's story to our attention. also joining us, political strategist matthew dowd, and cornell belcher, democratic pollster. matt and cornell are both msnbc contributors. shannon, i have now been doing this long enough to have been on the air when so many mass shootings happened, but i know the first questions to ask in terms of, you know, how many people, how many were transported? how many hospitals received

victims? starting to ask the questions about the shooters themselves. we choose to live like this. this is our choice to live in this country. what does it take? how many trey lewises have to be asked this, before we decide we don't want to raise another generation of kids to experience active shooter drills every month at school? >> you know, nicolle, i guess i would tweak what you said a little bit. i don't think we are choosing to live like this. unfortunately, there are extremist lawmakers who disagree with the people they represent, and they align with the gun lobby, and they stand in the way of life-saving gun laws that we know work, right? in the states where they have passed. and that is really the crux of our problem in america, that we have lawmakers who are making

children stand up to gunmen because they are too afraid to stand up to gun lobbyists. now, the power czars, we can take that power back. we can use our voices and our votes. i don't think it's any accident that katy perry was crying, in part, because she has a 2-year-old. as you said, when you have children in america, part of sending them to school is asking them to hide in the bathroom of their classroom, and to essentially rehearse their deaths and to pretaenld that -- pretend that door is going to hide them. our children sure as hell should not die like this. but it will take every american using their voice and vote on this issue, and refusing to vote for lawmakers who are standing in the way of progress. we are seeing incredible progress on this issue, but it will take all of us. >> i guess by choice, the people we vote for, as you said, the

people we choose to send to congress, despite the overwhelming numbers -- let me put the numbers up of where the american people are. back ground checks, 73% support background checks. another 10% somewhat. that's 85% of all americans. right to bear arms should be done away with, or have restrictions. we're up to about 65%, 70%. banning assault weapons, strongly support, 55%. red flag laws, almost 80% of all americans. you don't have these numbers -- i think choice is up there, upward of 63% of all americans. there isn't an issue, we're up and down the measures proposed by policy experts. so i guess by choice the people

we vote for are not always pressed to answer where they stand on these issues with overwhelming support. how do we make sure we front with this in the next election? >> well, it's a great question, because we have to know who we're voting for. so you can go to gunsensevoter.org and see where your candidates stand on this issue. you can show up. today, thousands of volunteers are showing up at moms demand action, and making their lawmakers know where they stand on this issue. more importantly, that we'll be watching them and keeping an eye on them. that's how we have gotten to the point in places like illinois, michigan, maryland, massachusetts, minnesota, where we can now pass stronger gun laws, because we have changed the makeup of those legislatures. i'm not going to pretend it suspect hard work. it takes working on this legislatively, electorally.

we have talked about the fact that a decade ago, a quarter of all democrats had an a-rating from the nra. today, none do. that is the hard work of moms demand action volunteers who aren't giving up. but we are also in a place where gun violence is the number one killer of american children and teens. and so, it is more important than ever that we work quickly on this issue. we are not just moms any more, we're mothers and others, we're students and survivors. but we have to use our votes so biasly. and really ask officials where they stand and only vote to those who are willing to move the ball forward. >> that made me think there are so many trey lewises out there. there are so many young people going about their lives, having survived school shootings. i wonder if we need to listen to them more, we need to ask them what it is like to have been raised from the age of 3 and for

anyone who doesn't have a little kid, active shooter drills change. when you're 3, sometimes they tell the kid to pretend there's a wolf in the hallway. if there's window on the door, they lower the shade and play a game like they're hiding from an animal. when you're 5 or 6, they tell you that you're hiding from a bad man or bad person. by the time you're 10 or 11, you know about uvalde, most of them know about newtown, and you know that you're hiding from someone who might come into the school and shoot it up. and then in high school, what not, lots of you fight to keep your phones in the classrooms so that you can send text messags. that's what being a kid in america is like today. >> yeah. i teared up when you showed that

clip. i hadn't seen it before just now. i have been very emotionally powerful in this. i think this is -- we can give -- we can give and we have given all the facts related to this, how the united states compares to other countries, how each state compares to each other, why gun reform works, how it helps reduce gun violence. we can give all the statistics. the aren't going to move people. it's the emotional stories like trey or like you relating that and what happens when you have children and what they have to go through in this moment in time. the problem i think that we have is, as shannon and all the work that she's done, this really isn't -- i mean, gun lobbyists are awful, but this really isn't the gun lobbyists, this is not the gun lobbyists causing this problem. what's causing this problem is we have a system in place right now, politically, that doesn't

allow 70% of americans to have their voice heard. i think it's pretty clear where certain candidates, almost all candidates stand on this, and it's a pretty dramatic difference. one opposed to all gun reform and the ones that want some gun reform. but our system is not allowing the majority will of the country to be imposed in our country at this point in time. the other part of this that worries me, and i was thinking as you were relating this, you know, probably the hardest working person in america today is the guy or gal that raises the flag at half-mast at the white house, because they have to keep raising and lowering the flag at half-mast, because every time we turn around, there's another mass shooting. i think that finally, we have to get to an emotional place and finally have to get to a place and ask what are the systemic

impediments in our democracy that doesn't allow the majority to rule. and then we'll have to ask the question, even when the majority, as you know, even when the majority is able to get through what we want out of the legislature, the supreme court, as it's constituted today, is not even allowing basic gun regulations in place in certain states. so states have put it in place, and then the supreme court has thrown it out. and that, to me, is a fundamental problem in our system. >> cornell, how do you see this? and i've got some reporting of what matt is talking about what new york state tried to do, which was knocked down by the supreme court. >> yeah. i want to unpack this even further, but first, i have to say, you know, shannon, moms groups and the other groups, bravo to you all, because you have been fighting the hard fight and you are moving the ball. we see that in the polling data that you are moving the ball. once upon a time, the issue of gun reform or even touching the

gun issue was like, you know, the sin that democrats didn't do. increasingly, that's beginning to change. but let's unpack the systemic issue here a little bit more. nicolle, am i surprised that it's hard to get gun reform legislation moved in a country where the number one cable network, its primary predicate is to, in fact, drive fear and division and victimization? even when you know it's a lie, they're -- their operating motive is to drive that fear and make americans afraid of each other. so this that context, i understand the cross pressure that's happened in america where americans are afraid of other americans. and look, it may not seem logical to us, but we can't ignore that tremendous cross pressure of people who are

afraid of their neighbors, who are afraid of the invasion happening at the southern boarders, who are afraid that people that look like them are being replaced. should we be surprised that it's hard to get those people not to give up their guns or easy for those people to cling to their guns and want more guns. it's only logical. the other piece is we have to defeat this. if you look at the post election polling out there right now, you know, the issue of gun reform was not in the top three issue of concerns. but it was a top ten issue concern. and those voters who voted for gun reform broke democrat by 44 points. you once said at the bush white house, you all dictated what the campaign was going to be about.

just like the issue of abortion, republicans could be for the most crazy anti-abortion stuff they wanted to, and it didn't impact them politically until it did. until the election became about reproductive rights, and this past midterm became about reproductive rights as well as inflation, and stopped them from having a red wave. if the next election, nicolle, if we are front and center and making it about gun reform and stopping mass shootings opposed to these other issues, if gun reform is a top three issue going into the next election, we will have political change in this country. i do believe that. >> matthew, i think i was voting a character in the movie who says to the president on election day -- matt, to cornell's very astute point, it is part of this bigger political

decision again, you know, the right -- and we're learning from the dominion lawsuit, that fox knowingly peddles things they know to not be true to viewers to pump up ratings, but it's all part of a cycle. that is the network viewed by most republican lawmakers, that's where they go to talk to their own base. and it sort of perpetuates this cycle of inaction, even though 60, 70, 80% of americans would like to see action. how do you break that cycle? >> all of this is what we have said is important in this. part of the problem that we have in this debate, and i'm speaking as a gun owner, who has owned guns for years, decades, because i hunt and i love to target shoot and all that, and i live in texas. there seems to be this dichotomy that's developed in this cultural moment where you're

either for gun reform and you hate guns, and i'm not say thing is accurate, and you hate guns, or you're pro guns and therefore anybody that wants to do anything on that doesn't understand you. and i think the bridge -- i think one of the most important bridges in this problem is that gun owners, like myself and others, have to be able to speak to folks in a way that says, enjoy your rifle, enjoy your shotgun, keep a gun in your house if that makes you feel safe in a cabinet or wherever it happens to be. we're not interested in removing all the guns from every household in america and we respect that part of it. but by the way, don't you think we have should have red flag laws? don't you think we should have universal background checks and some basics? all of those folks agree with that. but the problem is, the conversation immediately goes into this polarized place is either that you understand where i come from and how i grew up

and my dad took me hunting or i don't. and we have to bridge that part of it. >> cornell, just quickly, the people who access ar-15 style rifles are not doing so to go hunting with their dads. >> yeah, i think it is tough, but it is a conversation where we have to have a conversation where, look, we don't want to take away -- to matt's point, we don't want to take away your rights, but respect there common sense reforms that limit people who shouldn't have guns from getting them? and i think that's a slippery slope. again, i'll double down on this, nicolle. the number one cable network traffics in fear. they traffic in fear and

victimization. that makes any movement on this very difficult. by the way, i'm a licensed gun owner myself. but it makes it really difficult to have that sort of conversation with people if they're being fed fear 24/7. >> thank you all for having this conversation with us today on this occasion. we're really grateful. matt sticks around a little longer. when we come back, intimidating voters in georgia. what voting rights groups are doing to protect and fight back. plus, we came to know her during the ex-president's first impeachment trial. former u.s. ambassador marie is just back from ukraine. what the country needs right now to survive against russia.

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despite the well-established political fact that crying wolf about election fraud massively hurt republicans in the midterm elections, republicans respect backing down. it's causing private citizens to try to take matters into their own hands. nbc news is reporting that "amateur voter fraud hunters challenged 92,000 georgia

registrations last year using voter rolls, public records, door-to-door canvassing and hours of their own time to ferret out the ballot rigging that election workers, courts and state officials have been unable to find." now, most of them go nowhere according to the tally, just 2,208 voter registrations were removed. it's part of the latest trend, though, of vote fraud vigil antism. this hunt might not vor fraud tt could have a different effect and prevent eligible voters from casting ballots because they're afraid or discouraged from doing so. andrew garber, an attorney, says the challenges are more likely to disenfranchise or intimidate

or confuse voters than they are to turn out people who are ineligible to vote. that neighbor the point. georgia rights voting organizations tweeted a new bill moving through the georgia legislature could lower the amount of proof required of challengers, force counties to consider challenges based on unreliable data and undermine the national voter registration act. joining me now are my two guests. representative beverly, i start with you on the legislative front. why, in a state run by republican trump supporters that vowed to trump and their own voters in georgia, that there was zero fraud, are we still doing this in georgia? >> unfortunately, georgia is caught in a cultural paradigm where they believe what trump said is true.

in gwenette county, it took six people over a month to verify that none of these people that voted were -- it should. have been challenged at all. i'm very disappointed with what the republicans are doing. and we're going to see more of this foolishness as the days proceed. we'll see this culture war ends up. >> representative, where are you seeing the most impact? is it the sort of difficult-to-navigate climate of fear, that you're afraid you'll run afoul of the law, that maybe you moved and didn't change addresses or is it more insidious than that. what are you seeing? >> you know, we're seeing --

[ inaudible ] -- they're targeting schools and some counties are targeting schools of some students. so quite frankly, georgia has changed. over the last ten years, a million people have moved into georgia, so the demographics have changed. i think that there is a strong move to chill the voices of the new majority that's coming bo georgia and they're doing it in dill ways, they're targeting students of color and it's unfortunate. if you look at where these maces are changed, you can see that very clearly. >> so you're trying to help fight back. describe for us what that battle looks like, and what can be done at a national level to support your work in georgia.

>> thank you so much, nicolle. yes, we are fighting this battle here in georgia. they dropped a massive election bill in the dead of the night that is a shocking attempt to legislate elections. we're seeing encouragement -- [ inaudible ] [ audio difficulties ] -- requiring live video footages as voters drop off ballots, shielding prosecutors from any misconduct allegations that might come from any election investigation. we're seeing likely violations of the national voter registration act. this is after they passed the 98-page voter disenfranchisement bill. we should be making voting easier, and celebrating elections.

instead, we are pushing even more of this legislation, and we are capitulating to these voter vigilantes. if you're in georgia, we are asking you to call you representative today and tell them to reject these bills. if you don't live in georgia, to get involved and volunteer. on a national level, the best thing we can do is continue to pass progressive voting policies, and to keep a spotlight on these folks to make sure, just like in ware county, georgia, they're trying to take over the local board, to kick off the three black members of the board and hoping that it goes unrecognized and hoping we're not paying attention. well, we are paying attention. we are fighting back every single day. >> so i mean, i'm sure you know

this, but just to tie this to something we have covered here, we got to know jasmine crockett when democrats in texas traveled to washington to fight for federal voting rights legislation. we have covered voter suppression laws. there are 48 states contemplating voter suppression laws predicated that there was fraud in the 2020 election. what can you do without federal protection for voting rights in the face of this nationalized campaign to pass voting suppression legislation predicated on what republicans will now increasingly admit is a lie? >> well, as our founder would say, it's time to not just rely on one thing to make sure that we are pulling up -- or getting our suspenders and making sure that we can find every single

possible way to fight back. one of the most effective ways to fight back against this type of voter suppression is to go to your local board of elections meetings. they have an extraordinary amount of power in terms of how many voting places you're going to have, in terms of whether or not you're going to close polling places, whether or not you can legislate this type of conspiracy. you can expand so much access and protect so many votes by getting involved on a local level. if we are in a situation where we can't pass federal voting policies as quickly as we would like to, it is time for folks to get involved, to volunteer with fair fight, to call your representatives today. it is possible to fight back. it is possible to win these battles. we show georgia is nothing, is not the state that shows how

possible it is to still overcome all of these barriers, but it is going to take all of us and it's going to take an incredible amount of determination. >> representative beverly, i'll give you the last word. do you feel like the energy on the right to, again, pass these laws disguised very thinly as voter integrity laws, that have the effect of suppressing the vote, is the effort matched by as much energy on the other side, on the side of protecting and expanding the right to vote in georgia and beyond? you there, sir? i saw you freeze up. i think we have lost representative james beverly. but we will continue this conversation. it's so important to cover this.

thanks to both of you for spending time with this today. when we come back, we'll be joined by the former u.s. ambassador to ukraine. to ukrai. so it's decided, we'll park even deeper into parking spaces

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we see the potential in ukraine. russia sees, by contrast, sees the risk. supporting ukraine is the right thing to do. it's also the right thing to do. if russia prevails and ukraine falls, we can expect to see other attempts by russia to expand its territory and influence. long before vladamir putin's full invasion of ukraine made the rest of us -- marie yovanovitch is the former ambassador the ukraine. her testimony in donald trump's first impeachment trial was more than three years ago now. who could have known in such a short time the biden

administration would today seek to reaffirm american support for ukraine more than a year after a full-scale russian invasion. in a trip to kyiv, janet yellen brought a message from joe biden that the united states would stand with ukraine for as long as it takes. let's bring in marie yovanovitch, author of "lessons from the edge" and just returned from ukraine as the country marked one year since russia's invasion. first, tell us about your trip. you were there the same time the president was there. tell us about this week, that marked the one-year anniversary of this horrible war, but you were there. >> yeah. so i went over there at the same time i was there for the national anniversary on the 23rd and 24th of february. i was in kyiv, the capital. and it was, you know, it was incredible to be with the ukrainian people who are just as resolute as they were on

february 24th of last year, and have been throughout the last year. they are unified, they are strong, and they are confident of victory. but they are also tired. and they are, you know, fighting for their freedom, their families, they're fighting for our freedom, as well. and they are grateful for the assistance that we're providing. grateful that joe biden was there, that secretary yellen is there today, that members of congress were there last week, a bipartisan group at that. but they need more assistance from us. so while i do believe that the biden administration has done an amazing job, we would not have predicted how strong the measures were a year ago today. but here we are. it's still not enough. so as reassuring as that slogan "as long as it takes" is, i think we need to update it to,

you know, providing as much assistance as quickly as possible so that ukraine can win. i think that's where we need to be right now and back it up by action. >> the ukrainians have proven themselves as astute readers of american politics, the good, the bad, the ugly. what are your concerns as we head into a presidential election cycle in this country. >> yeah, american politics can be very volatile as you pointed out. so while i think that there is bipartisan consensus to support ukraine, it is -- and there has been since 1991, since independence, especially so since 2014, which marks the invasion, the nine-year invasion by russia of ukraine. but i think, you know, staying united here in the united states as well as with our allies, is going to continue to be a challenge.

it's always a challenge. but it is especially harder obviously during times of elections. and there are not only u.s. presidential elections in 2024, there are also ukrainian -- well, maybe ukrainian presidential elections, depending on the state of war, and the presidential elections in russia. so it's going to be a big year. >> is there anything about either russia's poor performance on the battlefield and the brazenness with which putin has rewarded the units that carried out war crimes in bucha that shocked the world, anything about russia's performance, or delenski exceeding expectations. >> i was surprised by the

lackluster performance of the russian military. i was not expecting that. while i knew that the ukrainian forces would fight back, while i knew that ukrainian society would support them 150%, this is a completely globalized society where everybody is doing whatever it takes. not because somebody tells them to do it, but they do it because that is for the general good. it's really frankly inentiring. -- inspiring. i knew that would be the case, but i didn't realize how strong and unified the ukrainians would be a year on. so with zelenskyy and this is the role of a lifetime, not to make light of what he's doing. he has stepped into those big shoes of being a wartime leader that ukraine, and frankly the world needs in this important

struggle. and hat's off to him for not only inspiring the ukrainian people in the world, but also reflecting the will of the ukrainian people. ukraine is a democracy. it's a struggling democracy, as all democracies are. but he is very much in tune with the people and the people are very much in tune with him. you can see that in his nightly addresses and his policy positions and frankly in his outstanding inspirational leadership. >> i know some ukrainians seek to keep their ties to the american people bound up in this idea that we were once where they are, fighting for our own freedom and democracy. when you see joe biden in kyiv, it is a stand, obviously for zelenskyy and with the people of ukraine, but it is for democracy. what work do you think needs to be done in this country, to make sure that all the american

people understand it isn't just ukraine fighting to protect its country from russian aggression and invasion, but this is a fellow democracy in an existential fight against an adversary that seeks to erase it. that is a fight we're having in a more under the surface level in our own country. >> yeah. that is such an important question. i think we need to continue to make the effort to explain what this fight is all about to the american people and to other world publics. because as you point out, this is about a totalitarian regime invading a democracy, with no pretext. they can do it, because they're bigger and they're going to do it. so it is in our interest to have more democracies of the world. it makes the world safer, it makes the world more prosperous

and more secure. it's also -- it's not only in our interest, it's in our security interest to see ukraine prevail, because if russia is victorious in ukraine, if russia is rewarded with more territory that it has teased illegally, because it's bigger, because it can, because the world gets tired, then russia will take a pause and will keep on going, just as it did in georgia in 2008. just as it did after the beginning of this war in 2014. that means that at some future point, we would have to deal with russia at a time and place perhaps not of our choosing, and perhaps not to our advantage. it is to our advantage to help ukraine prevail right now in ukraine. we are frankly -- the ukrainians are fighting for us. they are not asking us to put boots on the ground.

they are asking for security and economic assistance. >> it is always a pleasure to have a chance to talk with you, former ambassador marie yovanovitch. thank you for spending time with us today. ahead for us, first gentleman doug emhoff has learned in his try making role about toxic masculinity. we'll explain, next. ing role about toxic masculinity. we'll explain, next.

the promise of america is freedom, equality, but right now, those pillars of our democracy are fragile and our rights are under attack. reproductive rights, voting rights, the right to make your own choices and to have your voice heard. we must act now to restore and protect these freedoms for us and for the future, and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union. will you join us? call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day, will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for free speech,

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today covering this truth and what it takes to have the counselor to tell the truth, something that seems to be in very short supply in broad swaths of our country today, including in our politics, especially on the right. ahead of international women's day, my colleague sat down with second gentleman doug em hoff to speak about his historic role and work supporting gender equity. during their exclusive conversation, the second gentleman had a lot to say about what he calls toxic masculinity. take a listen. >> can we just talk about masculinity for a moment. has being second gentleman changed your own view of perceived gender roles or what it means to be a man? >> whew, that's -- this is something i've thought about a lot and spoken about a lot. there's too much of toxicity -- masculine toxicity out there, and we've kind of confused what it means to be a man, what it

means to be masculine, where you've got this trope out there that you've got to be tough and, you know, angry, and lash out to be strong. i think just the opposite. strength is how you show your love for people, how you show up for people and have their back and how you stick up for other people, pushing up -- pushing out against bullies. that's what i believe it is. so every time i can speak against this toxicity -- we're seeing it with our younger people, discourse, politics. in the media. you're seeing it as it relates to so many of the issues we're pushing back on. so i think it's a problem, and i'm going to continue to use this platform every time i get to speak out against this to be toxic masculinity that's out there.

>> you can watch the second part of the interview on the saturday show. quick break for us. we'll be right back. ick break fs we'll be right back. so, you're 45. that's the perfect age to see some old friends, explore new worlds, and to start screening for colon cancer. yep. with colon cancer rising in adults under 50, the american cancer society recommends starting to screen earlier, at age 45. i'm cologuard, a noninvasive way to screen at home, on your schedule. and i find 92% of colon cancers. i'm for people 45+ at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur.

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glorious and complicated. >> freedom is one of the only things that people will readily risk their lives and die for. >> those powerful words have stayed with us since they were uttered last week. they remind us of the extraordinary time wes talk about every day when we sign off on this show. every last week we heard from so many of you about those conversations, the one with ken burns as well as with veteran war correspondent sebastian junger. we haven't stopped thinking about the things they said, about hope and courage and our country. many of you made clear you wanted to take a look at them again, so we put both of those interviews on peacock. thank you so much for letting us know when something resonates with you. we are listening. we see all. that we'll try to be responsive. we'll be right back. ight back. thankfully, we also have tide ultra-oxi with odor eliminators. between stains and odors, it can handle double trouble. for the #1 stain fighter and odor remover,

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>> thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are