on for the entirety of president carter's life. >> the tributes pour in for president jimmy carter at home in georgia. nicholas johnston, thank you so much for joining us this morning, and thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. do you believe china has taken the appropriate steps to make a future lab leak less likely? >> i think that the system that's in place in china does not permit for or prize serious safety. we've seen multiple leaks of dangerous pathogens out of chinese laboratories over the years. we have seen fatal leaks from chinese government labs by their own admission from the original sars coronavirus, the 2002, 2003, virus. >> a concerning statement from the former deputy national security adviser to president trump. amid all the coverage over the igins of covid.

those comments were delivered to a new house select committee on china. we have a lot to get to this morning from the panel's prime time hearing. meanwhile, a trip to china by a putin ally is increasing concerns that beijing will ramp up support for russian forces. back here at home, president joe biden's student loan forgiveness plan went before the supreme court yesterday with the conservative majority expressing some skepticism about wiping away debt for some borrowers. also ahead, reaction to an historic defeat in chicago. for the first time in four decades, the city's mayor has lost a reelection bid. we'll get to that. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, march 1st. joe has the morning off, but along with willie and me, we have, of course, the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire, u.s. special correspondent for bbc news,

katty kay, and the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haass is with us this morning, and willie, don't look now. i can't believe it, but we actually saw at least on one issue bipartisanship happening. >> there was at least one night of bipartisanship. let's see how long it lasts. that new house select committee on the strategic competition between the united states and the chinese communist party held its first hearing last night. it was a prime time session and a bipartisan group of lawmakers set the stage for what republican chairman mike gallagher of wisconsin called an existential struggle over the future of america. >> we may call this a strategic competition, but it's not a polite tennis match. this is an existential struggle over what life will look like in the 21st century. >> to kick things off, the panel played this video detailing the human lights abuses carried out

by the chinese government over the years from the tiananmen square massacre of 1989 to the alleged rape and torture of uyghurs in china today. the committee brought in four witnesses to answer questions about a wide ranging number of topics including taiwan's independence from china, china's purchasing of farmland in the united states, and security concerns surrounding americans use of the chinese own social media app, tiktok. >> tiktok is already one of the most powerful media companies in american history, and it's still growing. it's not just dances and kids stuff. it gives the chinese communist party the ability to manipulate our social discourse, the news, to sensor and suppress or to amplify what americans see or hear. >> you were not at that meeting

in prime time, but you did sit before the house intel committee on capitol hill to talk about this very subject. we'll get into some of the specifics around china, spy balloons, support for russia, tiktok, what were your impressions generally as you sat before that committee? >> that all of those who say we need more bipartisanship in america might want to be careful what you wish for comes to mind. there is a degree of extreme antipathy about china. i heard more things about we're already in a cold war, that the goal of the united states has to be to unseat the communist party of china, essentially bring about regime change. this is from congressmen, and you know, what you heard last night there. it's the degree of animosity towards china is hard to exaggerate, and the question is, you know, it's all against the backdrop. this is the most fundamental relationship of the 21st

century, and i'm not here defending china. i think we have some important interests in what we try to avoid there. we do not want a conflict with china. our ability to tackle regional and global challenges of the united states and china in a cold war relationship, goes down to zero, so i almost feel like we haven't, you know, we're obviously focusing on other things, including ukraine for good reasons, and we'll talk about that. what china does and doesn't do in ukraine will have real consequences. this is the big foreign policy conversation that will have effects for years to come. >> it's bipartisan, it's not just republicans you expect to hear this from. it's democrats as well, signaling there's a hostility toward china. some of it well earned. what was the focus of your testimony yesterday? what message did you want to get across to these men and women? >> my focus was on intelligence, the whole question is how does the united states think about intelligence in the world we're in? one of my arguments is, yeah, we

need to think about china, we can't have just china the way we had the soviet union in the cold war. we've got russia, north korea, climate change, pandemics, we've got pakistan, which is falling apart. this is a world where we almost don't have the luckily there. we talked a lot about that. here we are, we're thinking about secrets. but we're flooded with information. how does an intelligence community that's meant to focus on secrets, how does it deal with the fact that you've got all of this open stuff, some accurate, some not, how is it integrated? the real question is how do you have a 21st century intelligence community that serves american national security? >> it's interesting that the rhetoric yesterday on the hill has gotten out ahead of where the white house is. president biden has tamped some of this down. though he refers to the relationship with the china as a defining one, he's saying how it should be a competition and not a conflict.

it seems some of the rhetoric, lawmakers were heading in that direction, it comes in the backdrop of the issue of the chinese spy balloon, concerns about china sending lethal aide to moscow. strong statements from secretary blinken warning against that and the ongoing developments with the origins of covid, and china's refusal to cooperate with the probe. >> you had the director of the fbi saying in no uncertain terms, the fbi, in addition to the department of energy, which we have been talking about the last couple of days, the fbi believes in the lab leak theory as well? >> the director of the fbi says china is blocking efforts to investigate the origins of covid. christopher wray said the virus most likely came from a potential lab incident in wuhan. >> i should add that our work

related to this continues, and there are not a whole lot of details i can share that aren't classified. i will just make the observation that the chinese government seems to be has been doing its best to try to thwart and obfuscate the work here, the work that we're doing, the work that our u.s. government and close foreign partners are doing, and that's unfortunately for everybody. >> there's not a complete agreement on this in the intelligence community, katty. talk about the degree of delicacy that perhaps we didn't see last night. richard nailed it when he talked about this being the or one of the fundamental relationships of our time, and while the hostility toward china might be well earned, i was reading my dad's book from his time in the white house, power and principal, and in the back of the book, he has a memo, the actual picture of it that carter sent to him before he sent my

dad to china, and it was all about balancing interest, concerns they may have with strong messages that need to be sent. so similar in some ways that add in covid and add in today's challenges. >> yeah, similar, but i think there was probably more optimism that there could be a relationship that was more balanced than there is today in the united states, and because of the deterioration in u.s./china relations, that's had an impacts in the u.s. and uk. i think you're right to point out there's some division in the intelligence communities over the degree of confidence with which anyone knows whether this came from a lab or came from that market, and i think the important thing about the select committee is they keep the bipartisanship that they have and that they don't let statements like we've had out of china this morning kind of force the sort of polarization we have seen in american politics where this becomes a tit for tat with

republicans saying, look, we said it was from a lab, and dr. fauci, for example, didn't agree with us that it was from a lab, and he was saying it was from the market, and you could see some of that already in some o. more extreme pro trump voices around the reports that the u.s. intelligence, the fbi does think this came from a lab. so i think the real job of the committee is to keep the bipartisanship on china policy together, and not let this become another victim of american division over almost every issue between left and right. >> pretty clear statement, richard, from director wray. at the heart of this, the reason we're getting these divergent opinions from our own intelligence services is china hasn't cooperated. we haven't been able to get in and find out what happened in the lab, find out what happened in the market. they have sealed off and despite

their claims today that they have been providing information to the united states, it's a guessing game in many ways. >> you're a diplomat. you say china hasn't cooperated. they have destroyed every piece of evidence, they have scrubbed that town within an inch of its life. look, you have to believe in a lot of coincidences that wuhan which is the site of all of these institutions involved in this kind of research that it's somehow just a coincidence, it's the wet markets there. i lean in the direction, and i don't have hard proof. again, i don't believe in coincidences, i tend to lean in the direction that it came from a lab. not purposely, but accidentally. the fact that the chinese have gone to such extraordinary lengths to cover it up reinforces the view. if there was something out of the wet markets why wouldn't they be cooperating? it's very hard to be dismissive of the lab theory. i was thinking about it, the china argument is entering the

ukraine conversation. really interesting. a lot of republican congressman are now using china as the argument. they're saying, we're so depleting our stocks in order to support ukraine, and it's putting us in a poor position, and it might attempt china to be more likely to move against taiwan. it's really interesting how it's entering every other foreign policy conversation. >> and this was on display with china and ukraine yesterday with belarusian president alexander lukashenko visited china. he's there at the invitation of xi jinping. as belarus operates as part of a union state with russia. lukashenko is expected to meet with chinese president xi in an effort to gain economic support amid western sanctions. back in russia, the "wall street journal" reporting the nation increasingly is turning toward using chinese currency as an

alternative to the russian ruble. secretary of state antony blinken is issuing a new reporting about providing legal support. here's what blinken said yesterday while traveling in central asia. >> the reason that i raised this not only with wang yi last week, but also publicly along with other colleagues in the administration is because of concern we have based on information that we have that china is considering moving beyond the nonlethal support that some of his companies have been providing to actually lethal material support for russia's war effort in ukraine. and what i can share with you is that we did very clearly warn china about the implications and consequences of going through with providing such support. we will not hesitate to target

chinese companies or individuals that violate our sanctions or otherwise engage in supporting the russian war effort. >> john, the biden administration wants it to be known publicly that china is moving toward providing lethal aid, leakings from the "wall street journal" to the secretary of saying not to take that step, which would be a big escalation in the war. >> it's reminiscent in the days before, they were putting out warnings, their intelligence, usually they would keep behind closed doors. it's an effort to deter china. they believe china has increased nonlethal assistance to moscow, and they're willing to let some of that go but the red line for president biden, he said so to president xi in the early days of the conflict is don't send them weapons, and now they believe there's at least a chance they could do that and they're threatening sanctions. katty, by question to you is the united states is talking tough to china, saying they'll offer sanctions, china suggesting

their economy is too big to matter. we'll see. do you think europe will fall in lock step? you're in london. there's been a unity in the alliance. the u.s. driving the way on much of it. there's a lot of european countries that have deep ties to china. would they follow suit from the administration's tough rhetoric? >> look, very deep ties to china economically in europe, and traditionally more skepticism about alienating china than there has been in the united states. the uk has fallen in line, for example, over huawei and chinese technology in uk mobile phones with the u.s. position. they basically bowed to american demands that they do so. i don't think you're going to have european leaders speaking out as forcefully as american leaders. this development on the american side raises some questions, like we still don't know what the intelligence is that has led blinken to speak out about this publicly. i have been hearing this from the hill that this is the biggest concern, and if you've

talked to people about the ukraine war and what could be the game changer, chinese weapons to the russians would be potentially a big game changer in the trajectory in the war in ukraine. i don't see, we certainly haven't heard them yet, european voices taking the lead on this. at the moment, it is an american effort, and america has more power to exert its influence over china at the moment, the economy ties are still very strong. they do have some influence, they believe, which must be why they're speaking out as publicly and forcefully as they are. >> we are going to return to the conversation. we have the ranking member of the committee coming up in our next hour. we'll return to this. other news, the senate environment and public works committee is asking the ceo of norfolk southern to testify about the train derailment and toxic chemical spill in east palestine, ohio. that is according to to two

congressional aides. and chuck schumer is demanding answers from ceo allen shaw. >> mr. shaw, you have an obligation after what happened to testify before the senate. the accident was awful, devastating to the community, worst of all, preventable, according to the ntsb. norfolk southern, you have broken your trust with the american people. the american people and of course the people of east palestine deserve answers. >> a date for the senate committee hearing has not been set. norfolk southern did not immediately respond to our request for comment about whether shaw would testify. we're going to hear from transportation secretary pete buttigieg about the efforts to hold norfolk southern accountable and rail safety regulations. he'll be our guest this morning a little bit later on "morning joe." for the first time in 40 years, the mayor of chicago has lost reelection. mayor lori lightfoot conceded the race last night ending her historic run as the city's first

black woman and first openly gay person to serve in that position. the democrat failed to get enough votes in the nine-person race to advance to an april runoff. lightfoot's term has been plagued by persistent crime in the city, including gun violence, carjackings and robberies. she has also repeatedly clashed with the chicago teachers union, police rank and file, and the media. >> i'm internally grateful to everyone who gave us their time, support, money, and prayers. thank you from the bottom of my heart. god bless you, god bless this incredible city. it's been the honor of a lifetime to be mayor. >> the april 4th runoff will feature two democrats, cook county commissioner brandon johnson and former ceo of chicago schools, paul ballis.

we'll get a live report later in the show. president biden's plan to ease student loan debt for millions of americans in the hands of the supreme court. and conservative justices seem skeptical. we'll run through yesterday's arguments. plus, house oversight committee chairman james comer appears to question why president biden's late son beau biden was never prosecuted. he's obsessed with biden's family. we'll show you exactly what he had to say. also ahead, outgoing white house communications director kate bedingfield will join the conversation this morning. >> and former homeland security secretary jeh johnson will be our guest as dhs celebrates its 20th anniversary. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ing "mornin" we'll be right back.

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the volkswagen atlas. more room for possibilities. a new court filing shows rupert murdoch admitted some hosts endorsed claims about the 2020 election. fox promised to focus on issues, including new host dilbert. >> welcome to "morning joe," i guess we should give trump a moment to not watch. he doesn't want to get triggered. florida governor ron desantis is considering visiting some key primary states as he touts his new book, the cross country tour kicked off yesterday and includes planned stops in california, alabama and texas. now according to a source familiar with his plans, the governor is also looking at visiting iowa, new hampshire,

nevada, and possibly south carolina. desantis has long been speculated to run for president but he's yet to make a formal announcement. keep not watching. meanwhile, former president donald trump remains on the offensive against desantis ahead of any potential white house bid. he, again, took aim at the florida governor on social media with trump writing desantis quote wanted to cut social security and raise the minimum age to at least 70, at least four times. like wise, with medicare, wanted big cuts. he's a wheelchair off the cliff kind of guy. hey, trump also claimed fox news is promoting desantis, writing quote, the new fox poll, which have always been purposefully terrible for me has trump crushing desanctimonious.

the meat ball is getting to him. he's obsessed with the meat ball. >> i don't know, he likes desanctimonious. it's a mistake i think, he's got better. >> triggered. >> let's talk about the book tour ron desantis is on. perhaps it's a coincidence, nice book stores in des moines, charleston, south carolina. he's going to the reagan library for an event, obviously a big step to touch that stone. is this a sort of informal announcement that he's running for president or at least some sort of exploration of that, and clearly as we have said a hundred times on the show, donald trump is worried about one person and one person only in this race, and that's born out by polling. there's only one person at this point that he needs to be worried about. >> it certainly looks like a soft launch for desantis. he's got team. his team has said he can't do anything until the florida legislative session wraps up, in may or june. and so he'd have to get the law

changed. his subservient republican legislature would do that for him. that shouldn't been a obstacle for desantis. the itinerary is telling. so is trump's response. he's focused on one candidate, and one candidate only. he hasn't said much about nikki haley for instance. he sees the polls, he sees that desantis, a big wheelchair off the cliff guy is the threat, whatever that means. but there are two things we should note here. the criticism of fox news, again, where trump is clearly unhappy with the amount of air time desantis is getting. he knows how important fox news will be to a gop primary early next year. and then secondly, breaking with some of the party about medicare and social security, which has been a popular issue for the biden white house to paint republicans with, some have offered support for it. trump has been against it. he's viewed a political loser. >> that's the wheelchair off the cliff, and the idea that they're going to push the elderly people, benefit from social

security and medicare off the cliff. that's what he's referring to. as a veteran of republican politics from a different time, perhaps, what do you make of the way this race is starting to take a little bit of shape and desantis sending all of these signals he may step up and run against donald trump? >> clearly. it's also where desantis doesn't seem to differ from trump on foreign policy. much more concerned about the southern border of the united states than the border with ukraine or something, and the person out there who seems to be more of a larger national security point of view is nikki haley. one of the questions is not simply whether you have republican differences over the size of government or any number of other issues but whether some of the old foreign policy debates between america firsters, i don't know if you're going to have any traditionalists like i used to be. curious with pompeo,

antichinese, i don't know where pence is going to come out. i'm curious where does the republican field come out, and obviously going back to what jonathan was talking about, the bigger the field, the better for donald trump who's obviously hoping that the anti-trump will split the vote and he still gets the plurality. >> you touched on it, but governor desantis said in an interview, russia's aims don't go far beyond ukraine. yes, ukraine is bad, but i wouldn't worry about the rest of the europe, which will come as news to the bucharest nine and other members of nato. >> we focus so much on the person of donald trump, to me, at least as important will be trumpism and to see what extent beyond him do his ideas essentially become the future of this republican party, and at least in foreign policy right now, if trump and desantis are the two leading candidates, they're in a similar place? >> we should note, not on the itinerary, cpac, just outside washington, d.c., trump friendly crowd. the former president going to

address the group on saturday. desantis wants nothing to do with it. we are going to have the sort of split screen between the two current heavy weights of the republican party. >> they'll be at the club for growth. seems to be a divide where candidates are going. a federal investigation into the use of child labor by a major sanitation company is prompting a nationwide crack down. homeland security correspondent julia ainsley joins us with new reporting on that. we're coming back on "morning joe." ing on that. we're coming back on "morning joe. ooh, the chewy app. clumping litter. salmon paté?

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just over half past the hour, a live look at the white house. a beautiful day in washington. last week, we told you about a federal investigation underway that found more than 100 children working dangerous jobs, cleaning a slaughter house. well, this morning, we have an update. the biden administration is taking action against the growing epidemic of migrant children, working in violation of child labor laws. joining us now, nbc news

homeland security correspondent, julia ainsley, julia, what more have you learned? >> well, we've learned that now the labor department and hhs, health and human services, which oversees the unaccompanied children who cross the border will be working together now. that's in large part because most of the children we're talking about are unaccompanied children, migrants who crossed the border and are going to places where they're not properly taken care of or finding their ways through some circumstances boo these slaughter houses in the case we reported and "new york times" reported in hundreds of companies across the country where they're doing jobs they're not supposed to be doing under child labor laws, often times to repay a debt to smugglers that brought them here, and now we're going to see a larger crackdown. in addition to the inter-agency effort where they're going to really sharpen their claws looking into these investigations, they're calling on congress to increase the fine

for companies. in the case of the company, pssi that we featured, they had children, they found 102 children working, cleaning slaughter houses in the middle of the night. that company paid $1.5 million as a fine. labor advocates, immigration add -- advocates, say that's not enough for a company raking in such a high profit. that's a maximum they should charge based on the penalty for hiring children to do these jobs that they should not be allowed to do under child labor laws. pssi says they have been fully cooperative and paid that fine, but what labor wants, what hhs wants, is a steeper penalty because they say this is happening in the dark of night across the country, and it's only when people come forward that labor can even get a warrant to go in and examine these companies. they want there to be more done, not only to penalize the companies but also to track the children, to make sure when they

shut down one slaughter house, they're not just getting hired somewhere else down the road and continuing to be exploited. >> yeah, seems like we're just scratching the surface at this problem, julia, and i'm curious, like, how young are these kids? how do they track them? do we know how many there are out there being used in the middle of the night, and what kinds of jobs are they doing beyond working in a slaughter house? >> well, in our case, the company we featured, they found children between the ages of 13 to 17, people we met, who met those children said there's no way that a 13-year-old could look like an 18-year-old or the 30-year-old that they presented on their identification. but of course in the block buster new reporting from hannah dryer at "new york times" over the weekend, she talked to 100 children, more than that across the country, working in jobs like these. she found them suing label into

j crew, and food that we eat into boxes on conveyor jobs. a lot of people say i was a life guard over the summer, i scooped ice cream. those are jobs children are allowed to have at a certain age in this country, depending on the job, depending on the age, and sometimes depending on the state. we're talking about dangerous jobs. these slaughter houses, these are machines that have killed adults in some cases. they're cleaning up blood and animal parts and going to school the next day, to put in context the jobs we're talking about here. >> nbc news homeland security correspondent, julia ainsley, thank you for your reporting. we'll look forward to more on that. former secretary of homeland security, jeh johnson, the 20th anniversary of the formation of the department of homeland security. good to see you. i was checking the dates, 13

months after september 11th, the department of homeland security was formed. how has it evolved over those 20 years as something to protect our country, our borders, after the horrifying attacks of 9/11? to now something that primarily, and in this moment anyway is looking at the southern border of this country, and the chaos that's happening down there? >> willie, i think the better question is how have circumstances evolved and has dhs kept up with those circumstances. so as everybody knows, the department of homeland security was created in the wake of 9/11, in reaction to 9/11 for the longest time this nation believed we did not need any sort of ministry of the interior or department of public safety because we had two oceans to protect us from the rest of the world. at the time, in 2002, 2003, congress thought that the way to deal with terrorism, and terrorism was the reason the department was created, the way to deal with terrorism was to

better secure our borders. terrorism was regarded then as an extra territorial threat from beyond our borders. if you take into account all the way someone enters this country, land, sea, air, tsa, coast guard, customs, border control, you have effectively dealt with terrorism. that's an outdated way of looking at terrorism. most terrorist attacks these days are domestic based, domestic in nature and there are not a whole lot of dhs cops around the world, around the interior of the country. the good news is that dhs has, i think, taken on well the cyber security mission, which didn't really exist in 2003. through sisa, the cyber security infrastructure agency, part of dh, and through the able leadership of first chris krebs, i think dhs is well positioned

to address our cyber security threats in this country, and the people in dhs don't like to admit this. the department is overwhelmed by the southern border and to the exclusion of a lot of over challenges we face right now. >> and you've called it a crisis on this show for a long time, what's happening at the southern border. that's undeniable. there are republicans in the house calling for the impeachment of secretary mayorkas. what is the role and responsibility of the department of homeland security at the southern border as it fits into agencies as well? >> of course there's border control, customs at the ports, there's i.c.e. that detains and removes people, and the problem now on the southern border, frankly, is much bigger than it was eight, nine years ago, when i owned this problem. the capabilities to deal with the problem are also much bigger. the scale of our resources on

the southern border is much bigger, yet we still struggle to keep up. there are new initiatives that dhs announced a couple of weeks ago to try to encourage people to enter the country the right way, versus the wrong way to be considered for asylum, but this all tracks back to whether you're talking about migrant children working in slaughter houses or the numbers on the southern border it all tracks back to the circumstances that exist in guatemala, honduras, el salvador, cuba, haiti, niaragua and venezuela. as long as those nations are as corrupt, impoverished as they are, we are going to keep dealing with this problem, over and over, administration after administration. >> you're very familiar with the federal bureaucracy and how agencies can have different opinions. i want to get you in on the idea from the department of energy, its report that it has low

confidence in this belief that covid leaked from a lab there in china. we heard from fbi director wray, though, voicing a little more support for that theory, more confidence to it. explain to the viewers what that means, the divergence of opinions, and what needs to be done here potentially, beyond china cooperating, but just explain the schism in the federal government over this particular matter. >> richard will have insights on this too. when i heard the report, i imagined how i would react if i were still in office, reading the daily intelligence briefings, if i saw a division of opinion among intelligence agencies on a conclusion and there's a minority view out there with low confidence, i wouldn't make much of that. i certainly would not make any major policy choices based on what i'm reading, and very often, when i was in office, and i would read something from an intelligence agency with a

dissent, i'd say to my people, bring the analyst who wrote the one opinion and the dissenting opinion up here, and i want to talk to them directly, and very often, when you probe the differences of view, you find that there's an assumption that one makes it, the other doesn't make. when you're faced with this kind of division, it's not a circumstance where you make a major policy choice or decision. >> it's quite possible here we'll never be able to resolve the differences, simply because we're never going to have access with the basic information. can we return back to the department of homeland security for a second. in some ways, is this an agency designed to fail? the range of missions is so large, and some of them deal with how do we help americans after natural disaster, as opposed to all the things on the security side. it seems to me that we have created something that has so many different cultures and admissions in it, would we do it again knowing what we know, is this the best way to tackle?

>> dhs, like everything in washington was a political compromise, in some ways, it went too far. in others ways it didn't go far enough. as i said earlier, it was the ideas were based on these circumstances that existed at the time. richard, dhs feels very big because it's got a lot of diverse cultures and missions. but it's a fraction of the size of the department of defense, a fraction of the size of the department of the army. it is manageable, as long as there are skilled component heads running each one of these departments, tsa, secret service, fema, and there is a common mission, which is to secure the homeland, public safety nationwide, and as long as you have skilled leadership, not distracted by the daily foolishness in washington about, you know, with the rhetoric, it can be done. >> do you think it's seized with the mission of dealing with the

potential for domestic political terrorism? do you think that's a big enough priority for dhs, what with home grown now, political challenge? >> the honest answer, richard is that dhs is not equipped to deal with domestic-based political terrorism. that was not part of the thinking in 2003 when it was created. in 2003, we thought of terrorism as foreign terrorist organizations, al qaeda, isis, and the task of dealing with domestic-based terrorism has fallen largely to the fbi. >> ask about the train derailment, mr. secretary, in east palestine, ohio, we're going to have secretary buttigieg on in just a little while on this show, and ask him some questions about the administration's response. how do you believe the epa, how do you believe the department of transportation, and yes, how has the president of the united states handled this incident in ohio? >> i'm sure that there are hundreds of federal officials on the ground right now from all of

those departments dealing with this. a lot of people have pointed to the relaxation of rail safety regulations during the trump administration. when it comes to the political leadership president biden, the first impulse after a tragedy like this or a natural disaster is for the president or even the secretary of dhs, i've got to go there, and then the head of fema will say it's too early. if you go there, you will overwhelm the security situation there, you will draw from local first responders for your own security who are trying to deal with this. wait a few days. the sweet spot for a visit to east palestine was probably while president biden was in ukraine. and then what often happens is there's push back because the president or secretary thinks, if i go there now, it's just for political purposes.

it's never too late in my experience for a president and this president in particular knows how to do this. empathy is natural to him. it's never too late to show up. the other thing i'll add is when people on the ground, federal officials on the ground know that the president is coming, you know, they work just a little harder because they want the president to hear good news stories from the local population about what the feds doing there when the president gets there. >> jon, is the white house moving toward a presidential visit to east palestine. is that coming? >> that is still where they are, considering it. we heard from president biden almost acting defensive about it the other day, saying that these regulations were rolled back on the trump administration. he's right about that, but he said at that moment, he had no plans to go. white house officials are talking about a possible visit. nothing's on the books yet. i could see sometime until the next week or, so the president, perhaps the vice president makes that trip. >> as i said, we'll talk to secretary buttigieg in a little

bit. mr. secretary, we ran out of time to talk about your model train collection. i promise next time you're here, one of the largest on the eastern sea board from what i hear. former secretary, jeh johnson, thank you, mr. secretary. still ahead this morning, a look at stories making front pages across the country, and at the top of the hour, we'll be joined by maryland governor wes moore ahead of president biden's stop in his state later today. "morning joe" is coming right back. e later today. "morning joe" is coming right back introducing new sweet and savory crepes. whether you like the flavor of cinnamon bun after sunset. or prefer to wake up to a little eggs and bacon. day or night, it's always time for crepes. for a limited time, buy one, get one free with five flavors that are delicious any time of day. only from ihop. download the app and earn free food with every order.

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on all abortions. lawmakers don't expect the bill to advance because they are waiting on an outcome of a supreme court case that bans abortions after six weeks of pregnancy. then a panel of fda advisers narrowly voted in favor of pfizer's vaccine for adults over the age of 60 yesterday despite concerns. in indiana, the indianapolis star pushes to pass a bill that would charge educators in violation of the law with a felony that carries a maximum penalty of 2 1/2 years in jail. teachers would not be allowed to argue as a defense that the banned material has educational

value. the bill would create a new process for parents to request the removal of books they find inappropriate from school libraries. that's going to be a mess. finally, the baltimore sun reports maryland is in need of more black male teachers. research shows black students are more likely to graduate and attend college when they have teachers that look like them, but in maryland black men only account for 14%, while 17% of the students are black and male. coming up, a powerful house committee set to hold a hearing this morning on legislation that could ban the popular app tiktok nationwide. we'll have a preview of that.

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it's hard for people to k how much their accident case is worth.h barnes. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehelpou let's remember, the last administration increased the federal debt by 25%, a 200-year-debt, in four years, increased it by 25%.

200 years. how did congress respond? it did the only responsible thing, it paid the debt. it voted three times to pay the bills without a condition or crisis. if they paid it then, why in god's name are they threatening not to pay it now? >> president biden in west virginia calling out republicans. he says republicans want to put some programs on the chopping block. we will have a break down of the argument supreme court justices heard yesterday in the challenge to the president's student loan forgiveness plan. welcome back to "morning joe." it's wednesday, march 1st. oh, my gosh. it's march 1st. joe is off this morning.

mike barnicle, and professor at princeton university, eddy glaud jr. joins us. the courts conservative majority appearing skeptical the president has the authority to cancel up to $400 billion in debt. our legal correspondent, laura jarrett, has more. >> reporter: the biden administration plan to wipe away student loan debt -- >> along comes the government and tells that person you don't have to pay your loan. >> the financial futures of more than 40 million now in limbo. people like maggie bell, the first to graduate from her family, carrying 30,000 in federal loans. >> it's difficult. it's depressing. it's stressful.

>> she wants the justices to uphold president biden's plan to erase $10,000 of student loan debt for anybody that makes $150,000, and $20,000 for low income borrowers. >> i am not the only person in this boat. >> liberal justices saying the proposal will help millions left struggling after the pandemic. >> they don't have friends, family or others that can help make these pavements. the evidence is clear that many of them will have to default. >> the white house plan is now on pause after six republican-led states and borrowers stewed, and several conservative justices wondering if the administration went around congress. a college sophomore and son of a

taxi driver, he didn't take out loans, and it's unfair for him to pay off others' debts. >> how is it fair to people like myself when i am not going to get a single penny out of this. >> we heard from chief justice roberts, and if you want to give away half a trillion of taxpayer money, it's not something for the president to do but congress to do. >> yeah, congress has the power of the purse. this is not a surprise considering the lean of the supreme court. the best argument, the biden administration believes, these suits did not have standing. it seems like the conservative

majority is leaning against letting this program stand, and justice roberts also appeared deeply skeptical. it seems to be breaking down, not entirely, but largely on partisan lines. it sets up a dynamic where you have had executive power rolled back a number of times by this court, climate change is one example. and then the roe v. wade was overturned, and then the biden administration believes the supreme court is out of step with a majority of americans. >> justice thomas has written about how it went well into his adult life paying off the bills, and the question is does the president have the authority to do that in this case. >> that is a question that has merit. what do we think about the scope

of the executive power? i also think we need to deal with the substance of the argument. when we think about policies in the past that have allowed the greatest generation to flourish, and we think at one point colleges were free, in some places like california, what we think about what has happened with this generation the way in which student loan debt, what it means for their future prospects, we gave generations before them an opportunity to get an education and go out and become part of the middle class, and what are we doing with them? it's odd -- not odd, but it's consistent the republicans don't see that connection in giving them the context to launch. >> some say they do see it, but the president does not have the power to grant half a billion.

>> it took me 18 years to pay off my student loans after i graduated -- i think i graduated. >> we'll check the records. >> i have to tell you, i get both sides of the argument. i get the idea for, you know, reducing the burden that young people carry with a huge blown debt after they graduate from college, and i get the comments of the last person in that clip that said i paid my way. what happens to me now? i willingly paid my way and didn't take out a loan, so i get screwed. i don't get the money the recent graduates will get. the larger question to me has always been, if these young people that graduated from college, if they can afford the accountants and lawyers to trim their tax culpability, and pay less taxes, huge

multimillion-dollar corporations, it -- >> mike, i have a sneaking suspicion the size of your student loan doesn't come to the size of the student loans of young people these days, be 70, $80,000 in debt. >> i understand. >> if we put it in the broader context, we will see what the unique burden of these students will do with that kind of debt. i understand the burden they are carrying. >> we will find out when the supreme court rules later in the

year. and mike, we just got off the phone with bu and they have no record of you. >> i am not surprised. a part of the a white house push to drill down on the priorities of the democratic party, and high on the list, affordable health care. >> i have been around for a lot of the state of the unions. i never saw one where the president got to negotiate -- remember when marjorie taylor greene was yelling, liar, liar, biden is a liar. i am going to be good. i am going to be good. the maga republicans try to take away peoples' health care by gutting medicare and the affordable care act, and i will stop them. >> the president takes that message and more to baltimore

today, and one governor speaking at that retreat, governor wes moore. you will be speaking to that group of democrats. what is your message today? >> our message is the work that they have been doing, whether we are talking about the inflation reduction act or the chips act, it's working. you are seeing how it's having practical impacts on the people of maryland already. i am thankful for the fact that the democratic caucus is going to be here and thankful for the fact for the third time in three weeks the president is speaking here, and we are going to build an economy good for workers and businesses. in maryland we will say we are going to support and fund law enforcement and address the fact that we incarcerate more black boys than anywhere in the country, and number two is

mississippi. i think being a model for the country about what does it mean to have inclusive but also really explosive growth, and the democratic congress is going to help us make that happen. >> one of the points, governor, you have been working on in the state of maryland in just over a month in office is the minimum wage there, pushing an economic message. what are the prospects of getting that number up to $15? >> we are going to get it done. it's of the highest priority for my administration to make sure this is happening. the thing we are showing is this not only good for workers, but we will address the fact that you not only have people working multiple jobs and still living at or below a poverty line. if you look at all the other states, red states and blue states, they have already done this and maryland needs to make sure we are leading the way. this is also good for businesses. by making sure you can actually

incentivize the most committed and competent workers by making sure you can index it to inflation so it adds a measure of predictability for our businesses -- i didn't come from a political family or frame. i was a small business owner before i ran for office. i was a military officer and i ran one of the largest poverty fighting organizations in the country, and as a former small business owner the thing we are looking for most is predictability, and raising the wages, this is good for workers and it's good for businesses and in maryland we are going to get this done. >> governor, you just pointed out why so many in the democratic party are looking to you, and your military background and business background and working with a non-profit and working with the poor as well, and you are writing about patriotism and it's been co-opted by the right in american politics in recent years, and i don't know if you

will speak about it at the democratic retreat, and in the sense it gets to the democratic party's appeal to reach out to working-class white voters, and also to all voters in your state, how are you going to talk about that if you are going to talk about it this weekend and why is that important to you? >> it's -- i am going to speak about it. when people look at not just that we won in the state of maryland and now serving as the only african american governor in the country and only the third elected in this country's history, but it's how we won. we were able to win with democrats and with independents and a large chunk of republicans as well, and it's because we went everywhere and spoke about the idea of patriotism. we were going to areas where there was not a lot of democrats in the area, and i would say, yeah, but there's a lot of marylanders. i refuse to let any party bass

trau ties that term. i will not allow the idea of understanding our history to somehow mean that that weakens us as a people. when i was inaugurated, that morning i intentionally started the inauguration at the annapolis docks, and i had a wreath laying ceremony with my lieutenant governor, and the docks was one of the first and largest slave ports in this country, and i started there intentionally, and we marched from the docks to the statehouse where i was inaugurated as the 63rd governor of this state. i did it intentionally, and i didn't do it because it's

indoctrination, but because it's history. it's important our state understands we did not do that because we were trying to condemn the past, but we were doing that because it serves as the foundation of our collective future, and that's what we are showing. we will not allow the idea of patriotism to be bastardised. >> i want to pick up on that line of argument in some ways. how do you see your voice, your presence as the governor of maryland to be a counter balance of what we are seeing in florida and texas, and how are you offering a blueprint of how the democratic party and maybe the nation can respond to the tendencies, the currencies that are exploiting our fears and

grievances? >> we are going to lead by example here in the state of maryland. i think about this in a sense of context where, you know, my grandfather, you know, like you, sir, my grandfather, he was a minister. the first one on my mom's side of the family born in the united states. when he was just a toddler it was the ku klux klan that ran my family out of this country. much of my family pledged to never come back to the united states, and many of them did not, but my grandfather did. he went to hbcu and became a minister like his father and became the first black minister in the history of the church, and he saw the same threats that came to him that came to his father years before, but he decided to make it stick. when asked what it went for him to be first and for him to lead

at a time when the whole world is falling apart and blaming you for its rupture, he told me that being first, while humbling, was never the assignment, that he had to move in strength and honesty, and part of his job and responsibility was to help to show the people, in his case, the congregation, what the angels were asking of us, and we need to push back by example and the bully pulpit, to demonstrate an acknowledgment of who we are and our collective future where everybody is seen and nobody is left behind is an approach that is not going to energize the base but enlarge it. we will win that. >> we just mentioned the president was in virginia

yesterday and maryland today, and those two states most closely linked to the federal government and those two states in a bit of a competition, perhaps not that friendly, to be the home of the new fbi headquarters, a decision coming soon from the general services administration. here you go. make your pitch for maryland. >> this is a legacy establishing project for the federal government, and the biden administration has already laid out the guidelines for how they are going to look for a replacement for it, and so stick by the guidelines that were laid out. they said they would focus on cost, and if it comes to maryland it has a chance to have a $250 million tax benefit to the people of the country, and we know they said they would focus on location, and we have location assets that will be important. they said they will focus on equity, and we know the two locations that we have in the state of maryland, prince

george's county, and it's a location that has been historically neglected by the federal government, and the gdp growth, fairfax county, virginia, is number two, and maryland, it's 42. on the final piece, think about the future mission of the fbi, where the fbi has been clear when they said they will focus more on cyber and cyber threats. maryland is the home of the u.s. cyber command and fort meade. number two is johns hopkins university, also in maryland. we believe on the merits this is going to be -- this will end up in maryland and it deserves to end up in maryland, and we will put our case against anybody

else and we look forward to the decision that they are going to focus on the things that the biden administration says they are going to focus on, equity, location, cost, and also focusing on the new threats of the cyber command. we think it will end up in maryland. >> the case has been maryland. wes moore, thank you for being on today. thank you. >> thank you. james comber invoked the late son of president biden, beau biden. during a pod interview on monday, he complained the beau biden that died of a brain tumor in 2015 did not face charges by

the u.s. attorney investigating hunter biden. >> this u.s. attorney had had an opportunity to go after the bidens years ago. in fact, it was beau biden, the president's other son that was involved in campaign donations from a person that got indicted as well as joe biden was involved in some of the campaign donations when he was a senator and then when he ran for president against obama, but nothing ever happened. i don't know much about this u.s. attorney other than he had an opportunity to investigate the biden's before and he chose not to. we all know he has been silent for a long time. >> for some background, the campaign donations comber referenced is around liquor executives in the 2000s, and

after that executive pleaded guilty in 2011 to campaign finance charges regarding a contribution reimbursement scheme, beau biden recused himself from a state probe into the donations and tapped a special prosecutor to lead the two-year investigation. according to "the daily beast," that probe found 19 lawmakers unknowingly received straw donations, including both bidens and therefore no public officials were charged or prosecutors. in -- who is this guy who is so obsessed with hunter biden, and now beau biden? i don't know how that helps republicans at all, politically. then there is the hypocrisy of

the trump family, which i will just leave right there. >> congressman comber made it clear when he was head of the oversight he would go after the biden family, and hunter was a national security concern and he said that many times, he thought there was public interest for national security in the links of ukraine, and that's not the case of beau biden. it's very hard to see how that national security argument would apply to the president's dead son. the politics of this from mr. comber's point of view seems to be clear, he seems to go after the biden family, it would weaken biden leading up to the 2024 election. there's an enormous amount of sympathy for hunter biden and the addiction he has dealt with

because so many american families have similar problems within their family, and if going around hunter biden is backfiring, it's very hard to see how going after beau biden who died tragically from -- >> there's no political bias, and there has been recent polling, the american people upset with the direction of the republican house, thinking they are spending too much time on investigations, and they don't think that's the business of the people. we do know the investigations into hunter biden will ramp up there on capitol hill and the u.s. department of justice, they will have decisions to make down the road. right now as a political issue, it doesn't seem like a winning one for republicans.

>> no. they keep gnawing on loser political issues, and hate to sound like somebody who has taken the day off today, but all they do is lose. they keep losing and don't pick winning issues, don't pick issues that perhaps 90% of america are at on important things like guns or women's health care, they just lose on that. they always lose and focus on books. they focus on gestures. they focus on the biden kids when the hypocrisy of the corruption in the trump family that is resonating in anybody that is covering it is so clear to anybody that can read a newspaper. it just -- when are they going to learn how to win, i guess, is the question? >> i certainly won't do a joe scarborough impersonation, but

we can name the years of all the losses. that will be an inflexion point as we head into 2024, will they maintain the focus of the cultural issues that pertain to the small electorate. the democrats are pointing to the elections as proof they know what they want. >> the mission is to go after the bidens. it's understandable. they are not interested in governing or in issues that affect you or american families, social security, school lunch programs, they are not

interested in that. their mission is to go after the bidens, dead or alive. >> but it doesn't -- but it doesn't work. on top of it, again and again and again, they are proving their strategies don't work. it's not a winning issue. people are sympathetic to joe biden and his family. hunter biden has written a book about all of his struggles. if i sound bored, it's because it's boring. republicans are hitting their head against a wall with issues that make them lose, and it's boring. they will not win anytime soon if they keep doing what they are doing. they have donald trump still leading them -- they are still scared of him and that will help them lose as well. we can say it as many times as possible, but it may not stop them from hitting their heads against the wall, bashing their heads against the wall. still ahead on "morning

meeting," the select committee on china, we will talk to one of the witnesses that testified before congress last night. and jonathan, what he had to say about toxic get all-day ant toxight heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium.

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jonathan, yesterday you sat down with a second gentleman for an inside look at his work to promote gender equity, and the support he offers vice president kamala harris. in the discussion doug discussed his push to change the perception of traditional gender norms. let's take a look at that. >> so a moment ago i asked you a question about gender roles. i want to dive in deeper on that. can we just talk about masculinity for a moment? has being second gentleman changed your view of gender roles? >> there's too much of toxic

masculinity, and there's a trope out there where you have to be strong, and strength is how you are for people and how you have their back and stick up for other people and pushing up and out against bullies. that's what i believe it is. so every time i can speak against this toxicity, we are seeing it with our younger people and in our discourse and politics, and in the media you are seeing it as it relates to so many of the issues we are pushing back on, so i think it's a problem and i am going to continue to use this platform every time i get to speak out against the toxic masculinity that is out there. >> jonathan, tell us more about the interview. doug emhoff is speaking about a

number of issues on how we communicate as people. >> yes, thank you for showing that clip. i do speak with the second gentleman, and when -- we had this interview because it's international women's day coming up on march 8th, and we are at the start of women's history month. he's the first second gentleman of the united states in a role that has only been held -- the spouse of the vice president by women. i wanted to talk to him about gender roles and masculinity, and his clip there, you know, about being a man is about showing your love and standing up to bullies, and he wears his love for the vice president as a

badge of honor. you can literally see it. i didn't point it out during the interview, but when i asked him questions about the vice president and his wife, you can see it in his eyes. his eyes start to glisten when he talks about her, as his wife and as the vice president, and the work she's doing, and i asked him about the perceptions about his wife and what he wants the american people to know about her, and his answer, men, when you are asked about your wife or spouse, doug emhoff is your model. >> yeah, and it's so important, the role he is stepping into in breaking the role model of the man that has to be the primary

relationship and has to support his spouse. i wonder if you asked him about the prospect of one day her becoming president and what that transition would look like to being the first gentleman of the white house? >> i did not ask him that because i knew it would go nowhere and we had a limited amount of time. look, this is why i think the second gentleman is one of the more popular figures within the biden/harris administration. his love for his wife is palpable and genuine and comes through the screen. one thing i learned in my 25 years of political commentary is the american people long for authenticity. somebody who is authentic is somebody that can drive through and get to the american people, and he's somebody who is not shy about showing -- visibly showing his love for his wife, but also for his family.

>> i love it. jonathan's full interview with the second gentleman, douglas emhoff will air this saturday on msnbc. thank you so much for being on this morning. >> thank you. coming up, the next guest says the critical competition of the next century will be the battle to control artificial intelligence. a conversation about how the technology could define the global hierarchy in the future, is straight ahead on "morning joe." ing joe. - excuse me? do the research, todd. - listen to me. kayak searches hundreds of travel sites to find you great deals on flights, cars and hotels. - they're lying to you. - who's they? kayak? - arr! - open your eyes! - compare hundreds of travel sites at once. kayak. search one and done.

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picture of fort lauderdale. a little spring training action yesterday. the officiating crew, the umpires for the orioles and pilots game left the field after the home pirates finished the top of the ninth, and usually home team doesn't bat in the

bottom of the ninth, but since it was spring training they wanted to get in republics. there was a half inning of umpire-free baseball. worked out great. no brawls or disputes. >> yeah, there was no arguing. this is the beauty of spring training. it's so silly it doesn't really matter, and it was great fun. the fans and teams were into it. the umpires, you see them walking off the field. this might make the case for robo umps, i will just note. felt like backyard baseball. >> this is baseball. this is why you love baseball. these guys clearly love baseball and love to play baseball, and

how many times you have wanted to go out in central park and play catch? >> what are you doing at 10:00? >> i have my glove with me. >> yeah. could we talk more broadly about the rules? i was watching a little bit of mets and astros yesterday, and the game is just moving in a way -- it just feels different, just a week into spring training and the game deals different. >> the only question the new rules raise is basically what took you so long? >> exactly. >> you lost a huge strike of a critical important graphic of the game, younger people. they will not sit there, go to or attend any game that last four hours. they have gotten it down successfully to 2 1/2 hours. it's perfect. >> even the high-scoring games are coming under three hours,

and it goes two hours and 55 minutes, because you have to be in the box if you are the hitter. >> it will probably force more action, which is great. they are banning the shifts, and the bases are bigger, and putting more balls in play is the hope, and runners running the bases and exciting plays. to mike's point, you slim down the games. we know we live in a culture of shorter attention spans, and the kids, they can stay up, the next generation of baseball fans, they can stay up and watch. >> i am not a baseball fan like you guys, but i will take your word for it. it will be great. i got mika laughing on that one. >> the next step might be that they finally figure out a way to cast -- to put on a world series game during the day on weekends for young people to see, so they

don't have to stay up until midnight and watch a world series game. >> yeah, i like that idea. mika? speaking of short attention spans, the house foreign affairs committee will vote on a bill that could impose a nationwide ban on tiktok, and it could be a national security threat. if passed it would biden administration to enforce the ban. anybody who has the app on their phone, some believe they have given the chinese to access

their information. >> tiktok is a trojan horse used to surveil americans' information, in other words, it's a spy balloon in your phone, and they will look to weaponize the ccp, and it's time we put an end to that. >> the bill calls for the biden administration to sanction any company that knowingly helps the chinese government engage in intelligence gathering, election meddling or help in influencing u.s. policy making. president biden has already approved a tiktok ban on government devices which goes into effect next month. meanwhile a recent report in

"forbes" reveals that china and the united states have reached a parody in the development of artificial intelligence, but china's implementation of the technology in products and services is likely to edge ahead of the u.s. this year. china has already declared its intent to become the global leader in ai by 2030 as the u.s. and european union fight to hold their ground. let's bring in paul to the conversation, author of the new book entitled "four battlegrounds," that looks at escalating competition over ai and how democracies can stay ahead. paul is a former u.s. army ranger that served in iraq and afghanistan and it's great to have you on the show. you talk about the four battlegrounds, of course, in your book, and they are -- they

include, data, computing power, talent and institutions. is china leading the way or who has got the edge in your estimation? >> china declared their intent to be the global leader in ai by 2030, and i take them seriously in their challenge. and the u.s. has been ahead, but china is in many ways ahead of the u.s. at deploying and using ai technologies. china has surveillance technology like facial recognition. >> what is the risk of letting china get away from the rest of the world in this area? you can look at cameras and drones and all sorts of things being used in america that china can use to get information, but

what is the national security risk of them getting far ahead of the rest of the world? >> the risk is that technology is a key enabler of key and economic and military power. xi jinping said science technology is the main battleground of main rivalry, and china has the ability to translate that leadership into economic and military advances around the world, and they are able to lead in ai and set the terms for how ai is used, and very troubling uses in things like facial recognition and other technologies that can suppress citizens, and the u.s. has to push back. >> that's fascinating. how are we to think about the relationship between america and chinese ai researchers? you frame this as a kind of opposition, but there's an

intricate research. talk about that? >> yes, the ai ecosystems are deeply intertwined. there are many instances of u.s. companies and universities working with chinese entities that themselves are linked to human rights abuses or the chinese military, and that's a real problem. we don't want to go too far because the u.s. also benefits to some of these ties. the best ai scientists coming out of china come to the united states and then stay here in the united states. the u.s. also benefits from some of these ties to china, including the main talent flows from china to the united states. we need to be careful in this competition that we are sustaining the elements of the ties between the u.s. is china that actually benefit the united states. >> the book is entitled four battlegrounds, power in the age

of artificial intelligence. thank you very much for coming on the show, and congratulations on the book. up next, we will have an update on alec murdaugh's double murder trial. ahead of the visit to the crime scene by jurors later today. "morning joe" is back in a moment. did you know that liberty mutual custo— ♪ liberty mutual. ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ ♪ custom home insurance created for you all. ♪ ♪ now the song is done ♪ ♪ back to living in your wall. ♪ they're just gonna live in there? ♪ yes. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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south carolina at the alex murdaugh trial. the jurors will go to the alex murdaugh property and will see where his wife and son were killed. >> in a rare move this morning jurors are taking a trip outside the courthouse to visit the sprawling hunting property of disgraced attorney, alex murdaugh. the defense successfully arguing the view of the crime scene where murdaugh's wife, maggie,

and son were murdered. the 1,700 acre property known as mozel is now up for sale. forensic witness cannot rule out that two shooters were involved with the murders, and taking offense with an expert that said the shooters would be a foot shorter an alex murdaugh. >> could have been a 5'4", 6'4", or in my opinion, a 7'4", as i just demonstrated. >> alex murdaugh repeatedly maintained he would not hurt his

wife or son. >> i didn't shoot my wife or son anytime. ever. >> he heard details about the shooting. the state also reviving the issue of the dozens of financial crimes murdaugh is facing. >> not only did the trauma of losing people we loved in a double homicide, seeing the aftermath and then learning that somebody you have worked with for more than 20 years had been stealing and deceiving us, there's a lot of emotion there. >> nbc's catie beck with that report. we will be following that story. still ahead on "morning joe," we will be joined by the polish prime minister this

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tiktok is already one of the most powerful media companies in

america's history, and it's still growing. it's not just dances and kid stuff. it gives the chinese party to sensor and suppress or to amplify what tens of millions of americans see and read and experience and hear. >> from tiktok to threats to taiwan, last night's house select committee on china covered a lot of ground. we will have much more on the priorities laid out by the bipartisan panel. in just a moment we will be joined by the ranking member of the select committee. plus, poland has led the effort to provide ukrainian forces with more tanks as the russian invasion moves into its second year. the polish prime minister is our guest this hour with some of his reflections on a year of war in eastern europe. welcome back to "morning joe."

it's wednesday, march 1st. catty kay with us, and mike barnicle. joe has the morning off. willie. this is a bipartisan congressional committee that set its sights on what it calls china's threat to the united states and our national security. our senior capitol hill correspondent, garrett, has the story. >> the fbi has for quite sometime now assessed that the origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident. >> the fbi's agents, analysts and biological threat experts assessing if a lab in wuhan, china, was the likely source. the chinese government denies

that, and the fbi director says they have tried to hide evidence from the world. >> the observation that the chinese government, seems to me, has been doing its best to try to thwart the work here, the work that we are doing. >> his comments coming days after news broke the u.s. department of energy also concluded with low confidence that the virus likely originated from a laboratory leak and described it as an accident. other u.s. agencies believe the virus emerged naturally, a view which have been the consensus through much of the pandemic. >> it seems to be a natural occurrence of jumping of a virus. >> the committee focusing on competition between china and the united states.

>> do you believe china has taken the appropriate steps to make a future lab leak less likely? >> i think the system that is in place in china does not permit for or apprise serious safety. >> the chairman telling nbc news he hopes the work serves as a national wake-up call. >> i want people to understand about the threat posed by the chinese communist problem, and it's a problem that affects all americans right here at home. >> garrett haake reporting there. and now joining us, the congressman from illinois. great to have you on this morning. want to ask you specifically about the fbi's comments, that this was a lab leak and the department of energy saying with low confidence, it too believes

it was a lab leak. where are you? >> i think we have to figure out the origins of the leak -- or origins of the pandemic in order to prevent it, but there's a tremendous lack of transparency on the part of the ccp, the chinese communist party, with regard to origin. where i come out is i am not sure. there are ten different assessments of the community, and they are all over the map at this point. only the fbi has come out with moderate confidence, and other agencies have low confidence with regard to the situation. >> congressman, let's talk bigger picture about the committee. the bipartisan committee had the primetime hearing last night. what is the objective of this committee? what do you want to get to the bottom of? >> i think first we have to investigate and uncover facts with regard to the challenges

that the ccp poses from an economic, military and technological security perspective. secondly, what are the next steps to deal with those challenges? we are not a committee that is a committee of original jurisdiction with regard to legislation, but we can help to usher through other committees of jurisdiction, the legislation that would address these challenges. i think that's something that many of us want to do. >> we are hearing a lot, congressman, about tiktok, an incredibly popular social media and not just kids but many have on their phones, 100 million in the united states alone. do you view tiktok as a threat to the united states because it's pushing narratives in the bloodstream of the american culture? >> potentially. that's why tiktok has been banned from all government devices and that was done on a

bipartisan basis in the last congress. and tiktok is owned by bytedance, and that's a chinese company, and it's required to provide user data on any user anywhere in the world to the chinese government when requested, and they help to control policies and products of companies, so they can ultimately control the algorithm and the content delivered to hundreds of millions of users worldwide including in the u.s., and that's why we are so disturbed. >> good morning. the hearing comes at a moment where there are increased tensions between the u.s. and beijing about the possibility of china sending lethal aid to russia to help with their invasion of ukraine.

if it's determined that china is doing so what would be the proper response from the administration and congress? >> i think the ccp would have to pay a price, and secretary blinken laid out that not only would individuals and firms that were involved with the export of, for instance, artillery shells or other lethal aid to russia be sanctioned, and potentially there will be other ramifications as well. this is a very serious issue, and i hope the ccp takes this as serious as they should and not export these items. >> congressman, earlier we played a clip from chairman of the house oversight committee complaining about the u.s. attorney in delaware never went after beau biden rather than hunter biden. my question to you is your committee is chaired by mike gallagher of wisconsin, and watching the committee perform

yesterday my sense was that perhaps congressman gallagher is a rational human being, am i being now eve in thinking that? >> no, aside that he is a packers fan. by and large the members of the committee were focused on the serious issues at hand opposed to partisan matters, and the witnesses were stellar and articulated very eloquently the challenges posed by the ccp. >> there's a need for diplomacy between the united states and china at the moment, and the meeting between blinken and his

counterpart was canceled. any concern you have with the heightened issues coming out of your committee when diplomacy is needed? >> i agree we have to be careful with the language used on the challenges posed by the ccp, but let's be clear the ccp crossed lines recently, and is about to cross redlines by providing lethal aid to russia. you are right, we need to make sure messages are delivered clearly so there's no miscommunication.

xi jinping is surrounded by a group of yes men, and not only about what they should be doing in the peoples republic of china, but in the united states. we need to look for ways to potentially engage them going forward on important issues of mutual concern, whether it's climate change, macro instability and the like. >> all right, congressman from illinois, thank you very much for being on this morning. thank you. russian president, vladimir putin, is tightening security after a report of drone attacks. multiple drones crossed into ukraine into tuesday morning.

according to the russian defense ministry, one came within 60 miles of moscow before it was shot down. no injuries were reported and russia said none of the drones caused serious damage. ukraine has not immediately claimed responsibility for the alleged attacks. "the new york times" has a new report this morning on another stinging setback for russia, on what was said to be the biggest tank battle of the war so far. the headline reads, in an epic battle of tanks russia was routed, repeating earlier mistakes. as "the times" describes, when it was only not only had russia failed, but it also made the same mistakes it made earlier in the war.

meanwhile, poland sent its first leopard 2 battle tanks into ukraine, dropping them off at an undisclosed location in the country, as poland has said it will soon deliver the remaining tanks it has promised. poland was the country that led the charge to get tanks to ukraine stressing in january even if other countries did not want to send them, poland would. joining us now, the prime minister of poland. we appreciate your coming on the show this morning. first of all, if you could talk about that commitment to get tanks into ukraine. why is poland leaning on this? what do you say to other countries that could potentially delivering more tanks more quickly? >> thanks for having me.

the war in ukraine is not only the war which russia fights against ukraine, but it's also about the stability of the whole of europe and the future of europe. this is why helping ukrainian soldiers and ukrainian army, i do believe that we contribute to the stability of the region in not so distant future. we have created a coalition of countries willing to send modern times to ukraine, and poland delivered first the modern leopard tanks to ukraine, and they are important to the battlefield as told by ukrainian generals and leadership, and this is why we try to lead and we try to encourage others to send as much weapon, as much

ammunition and other types of weapons to ukraine as quickly as possible. >> i am curious, mr. prime minister. you wrote an article in "newsweek," and in it su say europe faces two possible futures, either ukraine wins and there's peace in the continent or the winner is russia and putin's imperialism is free to expand. if ukraine is to come out victorious, we need to start thinking about a paradigm shift in european politics. the idea of security and peace is the only possible development model. one year after the outbreak of the war, we have one common goal, to pursue solidarity, to rebuild ukraine and strengthen europe. if that's the only option, i guess the question is how to get there.

what can you share about the shared experience between the polish people and the ukrainian people that you think has actually given the ukrainians the resilience, the resolve and the strategic competency they have today? >> that's true, madam. we are on the same belief of our ukrainian neighbors. let be clear for what the american nation did for ukraine. it's indeed the polish nation and the american nation together with the united kingdom that are supporting ukraine with all our hearts and with different options. i do believe that we have to change the paradigm. we shouldn't say russia cannot

win this war and ukraine cannot be defeated. that's too little. we have to tell very loudly, russia has to lose this war and ukraine has to win this war. one week ago at a conference in munich i recall the previous conference in munich in 1938 in countries which were hesitating and indecisive, apparently the prime minister of the united kingdom back then brought back peace to its country. we know how this story ended. a year later we had a war, the second world war in europe and the whole atrocities of war and everything in poland and across europe. right now we have to be pre-emptive if you want peace,

you have to prepare for war. >> mr. president, thank you for joining us today. president biden was in warsaw last week, and he said to you and the polish people, god bless you to help millions of ukrainians come across the border and take care of them, and how are you as a country and how are you as a society managing to absorb and welcome the refugees from ukraine? >> my government prepared all the logistics and elements needed to accept the ukrainians. by the way, they are mostly mothers with children because

their husbands and brothers are on the frontline fighting for sovereignty and peace in ukraine. my government provided the logistics, but we have opened our houses and hearts for the ukrainians, and they are still here. we are actually giving access to our education, to our health care system on exactly the same footing as polish citizens have, and also the social security system. they feel here secure. president zelenskyy expressed to me his gratitude and the gratitude of the ukrainian nation for the shelter which we have given to all the ukrainian

refugees. they feel here like at home, and they are really welcome as long as they need to be here. having said that, we know that many of them would like to go back to ukraine the minute the peace -- the war is over and the peace returns. >> yeah. >> prime minister, i wonder how closely you are watching politics in the united states, and there are an opinion poll that americans think the u.s. is giving too much aid to ukraine, it's at 25%, and most are republicans, but there are democrats that think too much aid is being given, and how concerned are you about the u.s. opinion about the war? >> i would say to those that the minute, god forbid, ukraine

loses and gets conquered by russia, the next day china would attack taiwan and the world would be full of disability and the efforts to restore peace and stability there after would be enormous. we have to address nowadays not to be forced to address the challenges three times bigger, and it's still a colossus, and without support from the west ukraine is not going to survive. >> thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> thanks for having me. >> we appreciate it. still ahead on "morning

joe," florida governor ron desantis is embarking on a national book tour. he's not banning them, he's selling them. looks a lot like the start of a presidential run. and lori lightfoot lost her bid for re-election. and pete buttigieg is our guest this morning, and he called on congress to adopt new safety rail measures in the wake of the toxic trail derailment in ohio. now there's movement to capitol hill. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. with the freestyle libre 2 system, you can know where your glucose level is and where it's headed without fingersticks. know what activities work for you. manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. ask your doctor about the freestyle libre 2 system. it's covered by medicare for those who qualify.

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florida governor, ron desantis, is considering visiting key primary states as he touts his new book. the cross-country tour kicked off yesterday and includes planned stops in california,

alabama and texas. now according to a source familiar with his plans, the governor is also looking at visiting iowa, new hampshire and possibly south carolina. it has been speculated he would run for president. donald trump remains on the defensive against desantis in a white house bid. he took aim on social media saying ron desantis wanted to cut social security and raise the minimum age to 70, and he's a wheelchair off the cliff kind of guy. hey, trump also claimed fox news is promoting desantis, writing, quote, the new fox poll which have always been purposefully

terrible for me -- he's back to santa moanious. >> it's a mistake, i think. he's got better. >> triggered. >> and let's talk about the book tour that ron desantis is on. he's going to the reagan library, to an event that is a big step to touch that stone. is this a sort of informal announcement he's running for president or some kind of expiration of that, and clearly donald trump is worried about one person and one person in this race, and that's bourne out by -- >> his team said he can't do anything until the florida

legislation wraps up and that's not until may or june. and then there's a law that a office holder can't seek another office, and he would have to get that law changed but that should not be an obstacle for desantis. trump's response is telling, and he has not said much about nikki haley. for instance, he sees the polls and sees that desantis, a big wheelchair off the cliff guy is the threat, whatever that means. there are two things we should note. trump is clearly unhappy with the amount of airtime desantis is getting, and he knows how important fox will be to a gop primary next year, and then the health care issue, and some republicans offered support but

trump has been against it and he's trying to tie that to desantis. >> as a veteran of republican politics from a different time, perhaps, what do you make of the way the race is starting to take a little shape and desantis sending all these signals that he may step up and run against donald trump? >> clearly. and it's interesting, desantis doesn't seem to differ that much from donald trump on foreign policy. he is much more concerned about the southern border of the united states than the border with ukraine or something. the person out there that seems to be more of the larger national security point of view is nikki haley, so one of the questions is -- this is not simply whether you have a public indifference over the size of the government, but over some of the old foreign debates, between the neocons and the

traditionalists, like i used to be, and it will be curious to see pompeo, when he comes out, and i don't know where pence is, and it's interesting to see the republican field come out, and the bigger the field the better for donald trump who is hopefully the anti-trump will split the vote and he gets the plurality. >> yes, ukraine is bad but i wouldn't worry about the rest of europe. >> we focus so much on the person of donald trump. to me, at least, as important or significant will be trumpism and to see to what extend beyond him his ideas will be the future of the republican party, and if donald trump and desantis are the two candidates, they are at

a similar place. >> cpac kicks off later this week, and a very friendly trump crowd. desantis wants nothing to do with it. we will have a split screen between the two heavy waits of the republican party. kate beddingfield standing by, and she will join the conversation just ahead on "morning joe." r) if we use kevin's college fund, we can afford this house. the house whisperer! this house says use realtor.com to find options within your budget. good luck young man. realtor.com to each their home.

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a federal investigation under way that found more than 100 children working dangerous jobs, cleaning a slaughterhouse. well, this morning we have an update. the biden administration is taking action against the growing epidemic of migrant children working in violation of

child labor laws. joining us now, nbc news homeland security correspondent, julia ainsley. what more have you learned? >> well, we learned now the labor department and hhs, health and human services, which oversees the unaccompanied children that cross the border will be working together now, and that's in large part because most of the children we are talking about, mika, are unaccompanied children that cross the border and going to places where they are not properly taken care of or are finding their way into slaughter houses and other hundreds of companies across the country where they are doing jobs they are not supposed to do. they are going to sharpen the

clause in looking into the investigations, and in the case of the company, ppsi that we featured where they had children we -- they found 102 children working, cleaning slaughter houses in the middle of the night, and that company paid $1.5 million as a fine. a lot of immigration advocates and a lot that work with the children say that's not enough for a company like this that is raking in such a high profit. some of the labor investigators agree, but that's the maximum they can charge based on them hiring the children to do jobs they cannot do under the labor laws. what labor wants and hhs wants is a steeper penalty because they say it's happening in the dark of night across the country, and it's only when labor comes forward they get a warrant to examine the companies. they want there to be more done,

not only to penalize the companies but to track the children, and to make sure when they shut down one slaughterhouse they are not getting hired somewhere down the road and being continued to be exploited. >> seems like we are just scratching the surface of the problem, julia. i am curious, how young are the kids? how do they track them? do we know how many there are out there being used in the middle of the night? what kinds of jobs are they doing beyond working in a slaughterhouse? >> well, in our case, the company we featured they found children in the ages of 13 to 17, people we met said there is no way a 13-year-old could look like a 18-year-old or the 30-year-old they presented on their identification. in the blockbuster new reporting from the "new york times" over the weekend, she talked to 100 children, more than that across the country working in jobs like these, and she found them sewing

labels into clothes, and it's dangerous jobs. some people say i was a lifeguard and scooped ice cream, and those are jobs children are able to have in this country, depending on the job and the age and depending on the state. we are talking about dangerous jobs. at these slaughter houses, they were working with machines that killed adults, and they were cleaning up animal parts and then going to school the next day, just to put into perspective these jobs here. >> thank you. coming up, transportation secretary, pete buttigieg is our guests. we will get an update on the toxic spill in ohio, and

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cleanup efforts are still under way following that train derailment and toxic chemical spill in east palestine, ohio. the head of the epa visited the site yesterday and the agency opened an office for people to sign up for air monitoring and cleaning services inside their homes and businesses. meanwhile on capitol hill lawmakers are pushing to investigate norfolk southern. a source close to nbc news confirmed the ceo have agreed to testify in front of the congress committee. and now joining us,

transportation secretary pete buttigieg. thank you for joining us. >> good to be here. >> what can be done to prevent something like this from happening again? >> a lot can be done. right now federal agencies are working to support the people of east palestine, and we need to honor east palestine by making sure we have more teeth, more standards and more enforceability when it comes to freight railroad safety. they have been wielding a lot of power in washington to fight back on regulation. right now, and if there has ever been a moment to raise the bar and go to the next level, we're in it. i have been calling for a number of railroads to make changes and we are calling on congress to do the same.

it's a very, very good development that there's bipartisan legislation emerging in the senate, and work being done in the house as well on some of the things i have been calling for, like making sure the fines have enough teeth in them to actually get attention from the multibillion dollar railroad companies, and tighter regulations on how hazardous material is moved. we are trying to establish a minimum level of crew presence onboard trains, and you have mile-long trains and some of the companies have been want to go operate them with one person. there's a lot of momentum right now for there to be positive change, and anybody that has taken to the airwaves to discuss the issue of what happened to the community of east palestine has an opportunity to help us raise the bar and stand up to the railroad lobby and get something done. >> in terms of the ceo being

called to testify of norfolk southern. what questions do you have for him about their accountability? this? can east palestine, the residents of east palestine be sure there will be full accountability on this? >> i think so. i think that the epa is doing a terrific job using its authority for cleaning up the mess there, and they and other railroads have fought tooth and nail against regulations. one specific question that i have put to all of the railroads is why they have not signed up for a close-call reporting system to protect whistleblowers, and i have given them a deadline of friday and i expect them to sign up or explain why they don't as we find ways to make that mandatory

to make that happen. we shouldn't wait for a rule to do that. the biggest thing companies can do is change course and stop fighting us and team up with us to raise the bar on safety and accountability. >> what are the chances that something like this could happen again? what are the changes that need to be made? is it the close call -- what you just mentioned, or were there other things that could have been done given what we know so far? >> let me be clear that the ntsb, the national transportation safety board, they have the lead on the investigation. they are independent from my department and there are very good reasons for that. they will take the lead on explaining what happened, why and how it could have been prevented. the report might take a year or more, but we don't have to wait a year or more to take steps, and we know it makes sense to have a higher standard around

things like braking and a standard for hazardous material. there's a high-hazard flammable train, and as we look at the images of this fireball, this train was not considered a high-hazard flammable train under the legal definitions. and on the common sense level, to be clear, it was regulated as a hazardous material train, but it's also clear in a country that faces as many as 1,000 derailments a year or more, that more crashes. >> mr. secretary, good morning. two questions for you. first question, is president biden planning on traveling, what more from congress can be done particularly when it comes to punitive action for railroad companies that violate safety regulations? >> so on the first question, what i do know that the

president cares a lot about this issue, we spoken immediately with me and other senior members of the administration about what can be done both to support the community and hold these railroad accountable. in terms of how that accountability work one frustrating thing for us as an agency there's a legal cap in the six figures, even on the most extreme violations of hazard the materials rules that my department enforces a low six-figure find means to a multimillion-dollar company like the class 1 freight railroads. epa has other authorities to hold norfolk souther accountable. there's so many steps, some of

which we've been clear since this administration arrived, others that would require help from congress i think there's real moment here, look, some of the house and senate republicans who are very quick to criticize when this case happened are now saying, well, well, we're not so sure we want to regulate. but others to their credit, republicans and democrats have stepped forward to say, yes, this is the time to have more accountability and do more safety on the rails. >> mr. secretary as you just pointed out there are a number of high-hazard trains in the country. east palestine, prior to this country and other counties in ohio, when you get into talking about why this happened, even though it's called 100 preventable by the chair of the ntsb, but the talk tends to make the railroad lobbyists sound

like the equals of the gun lobby, nothing can be done because they're so powerful. one thing you mentioned is fines for the railroad. what would this company have to pay as a fine given they make millions of dollars and what can be done to hike the fine up that's mind-boggling high? >> yeah, so, again, i can't speak to the findings that are still coming back from the investigation of this incident and whether a violation is going to be found there. when a violation is found, there's this statutory limit on the fines that we can suggest. the legislation put forward in the senate is one example of a way to do that. i think it pegs it to 1% of the company's income, and that's something that's more likely to get their attention than

$225,000 or so which is the legal maximum. again, i want to say, there's other work being done on the epa side to hold them accountable for the cleanup. that's already happening and they're already paying for thatd a strong epa. lot of the same voices quick to get on to this issue were trying to dismantle the epa just a couple of -- three years ago. the epa is delivering account nlt and helping to make sure that norfolks southern cleans up the mess that they made. here on the transportation policy side, whether we're talking about technology, there's clearly more to be done. the power of the railroad lobby is enormous. i've seen it for myself. there was a rule having to do with braking, there's a rule about braking that was put in under the obama administration

in 2015, five lawsuits in different jurisdictions to try to take it down and they went after congress and they went to this agency, sure enough that rule got stripped away. that's one example of the muscle that they railroad lobby can flex in this city, but i really believe there's a chance to have a change in direction right now. >> mr. secretary, real quickly, out of your jurisdiction, it's great to have you, epa, in one interview, do you think from your vantage point looking at this and what happened and trying to learn what regulations, what needs to be done to prevent it in the future, from an analyzing this, do you think questions will emerge on chain of command in terms of what to do after a crash, after a spill like this? do you think there are some questions there in terms of decisions that were made in the immediate aftermath of this toxic chemical spill?

>> questions may emerge, but i'll say what i saw was that personnel were on the ground right away, certainly from our department we had folks on the ground within hours, other federal agencies were there to support the investigation and the community and when i was on the ground i saw a remarkable level of partnership and cooperation with local, state and federal authorities. think about the different players who come into play here, public health people on the ground, environmental experts to take care of water testing, ntsb investigating the root cause of the crash. the state is even doing work on mental health, because whether or not someone shows symptoms physically to this we know that a lot of people just from that june heefl and that trauma are facing they need mental health support. we can always learn more, we can always improve coordination.

coming through their area in advance, knowing that's something that can help those first responders be prepared. >> u.s. secretary of transportation, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we'll talk to you again soon. still ahead, from the campaign trail to the oval office, our next guest has been on the biden team for years, now white house communications director kate bedingfield is stepping down. she joins us for her "morning joe" exit interview straight ahead. ahead. ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪

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never good when the government's report on a pandemic is just the shrug emoji. you know it doesn't matter if we agree on how the pandemic started the important thing is we all agree to pretend it's over. >> but yet it's not. welcome back to "morning joe." a live, beautiful shot of los angeles for you, where it's 6:00 on the west coast, and 9:00 on the east coast. good to have you with us for the fourth hour of "morning joe." the future of president biden's student loan forgiveness program. after yesterday's arguments before the supreme court it seems the conservative justices were a bit skeptical of the case for erasing the debt. and we'll get the white house's response on all of that from outgoing communications director kate bedingfield, she joins in just a moment for her "morning joe" exit interview. plus, the major moments from a

bipartisan hearing on u.s. competition with china. something the committee chair called, quote, an existential struggle on what life will look like in the 21st century. also ahead this hour, reaction to the historic defeat in chicago. the city's mayor has lost the re-election bid. supreme court justices heard arguments in two cases challenging president biden's plan to forgive student loan debt, the white house is trying to use the heroes act to relieve more than $400 billion in loans for tens of millions of borrowers after the pandemic. nbc news reports that the law in question that the government can provide relief for recipients for student loans when there's a national emergency.

challengers say that law is not specific enough to warrant the forgiveness. the court's three liberal justices appeared to disagree. >> congress could not have made this much more clear, i mean, congress didn't say exactly the circumstances in which it wanted the secretary to use this authority. of course not. this is bill about like what happens when you have an emergency. so what congress said is what happens when you have an emergency is the secretary has the power to take care of emergencies and it has that power by waving or modifying any provision and adding others in lieu of them. >> but the majority seems to agree with the plaintiffs. >> what i think they argue, that is missing, is cost to other person in terms of fairness, for

example, people with who've paid their loans, people who don't -- have planned their lives around not seeking loans and people who are not eligible for loans in the first place and half a trillion dollars is being diverted to one group of people over others. let's bring in supreme court reporter, lawrence hurley. how will the court likely rule on this case? >> conservative majority in multiple cases has ruled against biden administration. it seemed like this was going to go the same way even before the argument started. that's exactly what happened. it's following that script the conservative justices against the broad use of federal power.

pushing back on the idea that the president had the authority to do this without some explicit authorization from congress. when this is something they see as a kind of a benefits program akin to some of the other big benefits programs that the government has which the conservative justices have been authorized by congress. >> i'm curious, what you make of the argment that it's not fair, some people paid their debt, some people worked hard not to have the debt, it strikes a chord, will it hold up? >> it's interesting because the fairness argument, you wouldn't normally think of that as a legal argument. but what they seem to be saying this kind of feeds into this idea of, you know, when congress is the body that should decide whether to issue a new benefit that, you know, maybe favors one

group over another one as justice gorsuch said, it's not up to president biden to decide to favor one group of people, 40 million people, and cost $400 billion, but it's up to congress to make that decision and that's in line of what they've ruled in these other cases recently. >> nbc news supreme court reporter lawrence hurley, thank you very much for your insight this morning. and joining us now, outgoing white house communications director, kate bedingfield, kate, it's great to have you on. your last "morning joe" interview. i'd like you to comment on what's happening with president biden's student loan forgiveness program, hanging in the balance here, is there a backup plan? >> first of all, mika, we're confident that the program is

legal, the government made a compelling case that opponents of the plan don't have standing here, now obviously we're not going to prejudge the outcome of the court's decision, i think it's important to take a step back and recognize what president biden is doing is trying to ensure working class people, middle-class people all across this country have breathing room and opponents of this program are trying to prevent that from happening. when middle class families have more breathing room that's good for the economy across the board. more money to buy a home or start a business. it's important. we're not going to prejudge the outcome of the court's decision. but i think it's important for people to understand and what's actually at question here. >> so, and, again, what's the next move, though, depending on whether or not this goes

through, if it doesn't, and also, let's add to the question what's on the plate for the next communications director? >> well, look, across the board, president biden has an economic plan that's about, again, giving breathing room to working class and middle class people in everything he does, from lowering prescription drug costs which he did with the inflation reduction act. to lowering people's utility bills, to again working to provide relief for student debt. everything he does is about giving people breathing room. court watchers will assess at different moments in this case how they believe the outcome will land, but we'll ultimately see what the court does and we'll go from there. it's an enormous amount and and

will be terrific in this role. for any communications director the job is to take president biden's directive, to take the things he's trying to get done for working people and we're talking them in a way that people can understand and relate to, top of mind for ben as he's moving guard in this job. >> about ben, would you advise him to ask the president to consider visiting east palestine? >> well, the president will make his own decisions about where he goes, but look he himself has answered this question, what he said within hours of this accident happening, there were folks on the ground from epa, folks on the ground from cdc and the president has been in direct contact with the governors of both impacted states, has told them repeatedly we'll provide them with everything they need. we've seen that.

the epa has been on the ground, administrator regan has been on the ground. ensure they have what they need, where to go to get resources while they're doing this. ultimately at the end of the day it's on norfolk southern to make pay for the mess they made. everyone across this government are going to push until that happens. >> kate, i want to get your reflections, must feel so weird to be on the cusp of leaving this job given how much your life and your heart you have devoted to this presidency, to service, and you have fought hard, we're friends but we've also fought on the phone, i remember some pretty tough phone calls that we have had enjoyed.

oh, yeah. >> we have. >> yelling at kate. no, but the truth is, you know, you believed very much in what you're doing and felt strongly enough to make sure you advocated for your role and i'm curious what you're going to miss the most, i assume it's not fighting with me. >> actually, promise you'll pick up your phone. it's actually, you summed it up quite beautifully it's hard to put the finger on what i'll miss the most. i'll miss the president tremendously. i'll miss this team who i have been in the trenches with since we launched our primary campaign. you really develop as i'm sure a lot of people can relate to when you're in these intense jobs you develop these strong bonds with the people you work with and

they become kind of like family, i will definitely miss them every single day. the other thing i'll miss about this job that's so extraordinary, you have the opportunity to talk with experts in their field on any topic under the sun. when you're working on an issue and you're trying to work through how to explain it, you get on the phone and in the room with people who have dedicated their lives to that issue. so, having that at my fingertips, the honor that is, i'm going to miss that tremendously. i'm going to miss it all of it. >> jonathan, congratulations. >> thank you. >> obviously, you're heading out but there are challenges on the horizon for those you're leaving

behind. can you preview how the building has prepared for the upcoming clashes over the debt ceiling? >> sure, look, on the gop-led proebs i think that the country and we saw, i would argue and again i'd argue carefully on politics here, because there are limits on what i can say, i think in november of this past year people made very clear they want to see their elected officials, democrats and republicans, focused on economic issues, kitchen table issues, focused on what they care about. you know, as the house republicans put these, you know, personal investigations, highly political investigations i think they're showing the american people where their priorities are. so you know certainly we will

not as a white house we're not going to stand for smears and misinformation, but also we're going to remain fully focused on pushing forward our agenda that's about getting things done for working people. the president has been very clear, over the last two years advanced an agenda that has reduced the deficit, he's putting forward on march 9th his budget that will continue to bring down costs, that will continue to give working people breathing room and we can do all of that while continuing to bring down the deficit. he'll put that on the table on march 9th. he's asked the republicans to do the same. he's hoping they'll work with him in good faith on that. whether the republicans are going to allow the country to

pay debts or move us into default. >> speaking of those republicans, house oversight committee chair james comber, he invoked the late son beau biden, was never investigated over campaign contributions, it was during a podcast interview on monday the kentucky republican complained that beau biden, the former delaware attorney general who died of a brain tumor in 2015 did not face any charges by the u.s. attorney investigating hunter biden. take a listen. >> this u.s. attorney had had an opportunity to go after the bidens years ago, in fact it was beau biden, the president's other son that was involved in some campaign donations from a person that got indicted. joe biden was involved in some

of these donations as a senator and when he ran for president, nothing ever happened. i don't know much about this u.s. attorney other than he's had an opportunity to investigate the bidens before and he chose not to, we all know that he's just been silent for a long time. >> we explained earlier in the show why no public officials were never charged or prosecuted in that matter, kate, your response? >> mika, i'll be honest with you on a human level that's appalling. appalling. despicable. frankly it says quite a lot, none of it good about jim comber. the president is going to continue to focus on moving forward his agenda, bringing down preskripg drug costs. he'll continue working on his agenda. for the american people to hear something like that from

congressman comer. >> kate, on that point, you're leaving but not really leaving, with the comer stuff, my job here is to go after the bidens. that's his idea of governing, the weight of the presidency as you know is enormous. can you just talk a bit about the weight of carrying everything he carries, the presidency as well as the concerns over his family being involved in politics, being dragged through the mud in politics and i'm not talking about the hunter stuff, i'm talking about specifically about the beau biden reference yesterday, what does that do to him? >> look, he'd be the first to tell you in his time of public life i think he has learned to

focus on what matters and to tune out what doesn't. obviously for anybody, for any parent watching right now, to hear somebody speak about your deceased child that way, an attempt to smear your deceased child, any parent would agree that's a horrific thing to do and of course that sort of thing weighs on the president and his family. but, you know, he knows that sometimes politics is an incredibly distasteful game and for him it's about focusing on what matters. working to get things done. i will say i think and one of the reasons i was really proud and honored to work for him many years ago when i first came to work for him, you know he does believe even in this day of hyperpartisanship we can find common cause and we can come together and get things done. that's the ultimate expression of optimism. in this day and age to say, you

know what, there are times where we can set our differences aside and we can get things done in the face of cynicism and politics that's the ultimate expression of optimism and that's who president biden is through and through. everybody watching should know he's going to continue fighting for you every single day he's in this job. >> white house communications director for one more day, kate bedingfield. kate, congratulations on a tremendous accomplishment. i know the president's so proud of you and we congratulate you as well. thank you for coming on. >> it's been an honor. thank you for having me. all right, we turn now to last night's congressional hearing of the new bipartisan committee with u.s. competition with china. last hour with spoke with the ranking member on the panel about the need to maintain diplomacy with china but also holding them accountable for its

actions. >> we have to be very careful with the language that's used to describe the challenges that this poses. but on the other hand, let's be clear they've crossed a number of lines recently. we need to continue to provide them with accurate information about the consequences of actions they take and also look for ways to potentially engage them going forward on important issues on mutual concern. >> joining us now is one of the witnesses from last night's hearing, scott paul, the president of the alliance for american manufacturing, the partnership of america's leading manufacturers and united steelworkers union. you said the economic policies, the chinese communist party presents a clear and present danger to the economy. >> thank you, mika.

it's a danger in a number of different ways. first over the last couple of decades, certainly in the industrial heartland and in areas across america, lot of factory closures as chinese imports surged into the united states. second in many ways we turned over the keys to the 21st sempkry economy to chinese communist party. the lure of using china as a factory floor was too great for a lot of big companies. so our consumers got cheap t-shirts but we're behind in a number of different technologies and we've had to play catch-up in a hurry and the challenge, mika, this is not simply a commercial business to business issue, every business in china is sub ver yent has to answer to

the government. our technology is being utilized by china's military in a race and we have to be careful. we can't do unforced errors. i think we have to have a smart policy. it includes making ourselves more competitive. we have to wake up to this challenge. >> you say that while the chinese communist party's policies have been destructive our policies have made matters worse, is that what you were talking about? ? >> i think for too long and i'm certain you've seen this as well, there was a lot of wishful thinking about china, as we expanded trade china would become more open, more democratic, more market oriented and for many years, both parties gave the chinese leadership the benefit of the doubt.

we saw this shock again that's hit industrial heartland communities and has really devastated them in a lot of social ways as well. and we're now behind on a lot of key technologies, on solar, on batteries, electric vehicle manufacturing, artificial intelligence, the list is pretty big and we've leveraged ourselves. lot of medicine is made in china. we saw those shortages flare up during the pandemic. i'm glad lawmakers have a focus on that. i completely agree with the ranking member that this shouldn't be about chinese people, this should not be about asian americans, this has to be directed at the policies of the chinese communist party, no one wants a cold war or a hot war. we'll be in a serious economic competition with china and our policies now need to reflect that.

they should not give the chinese communist party the benefit of the doubt as we have in the past. >> president of the alliance for american manufacturing, scott paul, thank you very much for being on this morning. we appreciate it. coming, just four years ago, she won all 50 wards en route to becoming mayor of chicago. but last night she became the first windy city mayor in fours years to lose re-election. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions

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i'm grateful to everyone who gave us their time, support and money and prayers. thank you from the bottom of my heart. god bless you. god bless this incredible city. >> for the first time in 40 years, the mayor of chicago has lost re-election.

mayor lori lightfoot conceded the race last night after not getting enough votes to advance to an april runoff, the april 4th runoff will feature two democrats. brandon johnson and paul vallas. joining us live from chicago, nbc news correspondent marissa. what a historic day? >> lori lightfoot may not win, the surprising part of all of this was how fast that concession happened last night. i was in the room as we found out. just two hours after polls closed. lot of surprised looks on the faces on the people around me as lightfoot took the stage, she had a solemn look on her face, she looked to the room, she thanked them for their support. she said they lost. we've been talking about this

for this whole past week it wasn't easy to be mayor of any major city. the historic pandemic, the 2020 uprisings, the tensions with police, the spikes in crime not only in chicago but across the country, so her supporters, those who voted for mayor lori lightfoot say they feel she didn't get a fair shake. i had a chance to speak with at will of voters yesterday. several of them had voted for mayor lori lightfoot in this last election, just four years ago, but many of those same voters a couple of factors why they didn't vote for her. they felt like that lori lightfoot had turned her back on the community. several other voters said that the fact that lightfoot was

competing against eight other candidates was a significant factor, saying, if they had had less candidates to choose from they might have voted for lori lightfoot, several of them said they didn't know who they were going to vote for. as we talked about these recent polls have shown she potentially wouldn't make the runoff. you talked about paul vallas and brandon johnson facing off on april 4th. both running as democrats. they couldn't be more different when you look at the democratic political spectrum here in chicago. paul has been campaigning as a law and order mayor and brandon johnson, much more openly progressive, has the backing of the chicago teachers union and more progressive voters. the thing to remember, lightfoot has been striking a centrist

tone here but clearly chicago voted for change, two very different candidates and her exit was just as historic as her entrance. >> marissa live in chicago, thank you so much for that report. we appreciate it. still ahead, we'll take you through what the fbi found at the home of the suspect who's accused of killing four idaho college students. the new development in that case is next on "morning joe." joe.

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a month for seniors on medicare. there are new details this morning in the murders of those four university of idaho students, the suspect bryan kohberger is being held without bail ahead of his next court appearance in june. nbc news correspondent gadi schwartz has the latest. >> reporter: in late december, law enforcement arresting bryan kou begger at his parents' home in pennsylvania. we're learning what else authorities took from his family home that morning.

mom the items flashlight, white nike shoes. and a cheek swab. according to two sources familiar with investigation nbc news learned that investigators used forensic genology. in a previous search of his apartment in washington state investigators also gathered possible hair strands, chemical-resistant gloves. he driven home with his father to pennsylvania from washington state university, where he was pursuing his ph.d. in criminal justice. on that trip the pair were pulled twice over in indiana weeks before the arrest. they were driving a white hyundai elantra. kohberger's school less than ten miles from the university of idaho, and the offcampus home

where the four students were found stabbed to death. now, kohberger is awaiting trial. he hasn't entered a plea but he believes he will be exonerated. meanwhile the community of moscow, ietd how s trying to move guard. >> i feel better that they have the suspect in custody, there's a chance this might be behind us soon enough. >> reporter: the university announcing that the house where the murders happened will be demolished. the artificial intelligence race is reaching a new level this morning. co-council is the first artificial intelligence legal assistant and it's making its debut right here on "morning joe."

according to its developers it can perform several tasks, such as legal research, document review and contract analysis more quickly and accurately than ever before possible. joining us are the co-founders. also with us for this conversation -- walk us through what this does and why it's can considered revolutionary. >> the way that it works it can read, write and understand at a very high level. give it a task like doing research for you or reading through thousands of pages of documents and ask it quite difficult questions. >> so pablo and jake, as

example, you have a live demo prepared for us on the january 6th report allowing us to ask a few questions. our first question, can donald trump be challenged for conspiracy to make a false statement? >> sure, what i've done right now, i've uploaded all 847 pages of the january 6th committee report and i'll pull up that question and i've asked a few others just for fun, any everyday in the report to exonerate donald trump and what are the most incriminating tweets according to the report that donald trump has said. >> we needed a bigger server for the tweets. >> i was going to say. >> i'm going to ask it to get started. it will take a few minutes to read through these 847 pages. >> how would this application

handle a legal client of yours. >> i think the way a lawyer might use this privately doing their research trying to determine what's the law, you know, on that particular issue, what are the exceptions and take a bit of time to really analyze the facts and this will help you. >> we have a lawyer sitting right here, how would you use this? >> i actually use it in consultations, i don't have to wait until afterwards. if there's a question that comes up, the old way i'd track someone down and ask them. lot of times they don't have the answer. i used it a number of times to get a quick answer because it's not just combing the web.

this is a big national pro bono class action case for the 100,000-plus ukrainians that have come into the country whether they're entitled to automatic work authorization. we filed it in a court in illinois and a separate case in d.c. there's a lot of complex legal issues involved in this case, we needed to figure out, on fee refunds for overcharging ukrainian refugees what the law was, whether the government had sovereign immunity and the tool proved really helpful. >> how would this help the dreamers, this application? >> lot of complex legal issues that lawyers deal when someone in our office asks, for example,

are they eligible to get permanent residency, it may depend on what circuit you're living, all the case law is in the system, you can find that, i also have one of the cool things about this, you just saw you can upload something. i write a co-write a book a manual on immigration law and i can actually just ask my manual questions on it and there's a daca chapter that's 200 pages. >> we've given it more than enough time. what do we have there? >> we do. we asked three questions. evidence to incriminate donald trump and what are his tweets? you can see in the interface, the one chapter and it begins, this document contains ample

evidence that can be used to charge trump with insurrection. one thing that i think is funny and interesting, you see the column about exonerating trump is mostly blank. like a good lawyer it's trying to make the best case it can. it includes a section from chapter 7 of the report, there are few details that can be used in his defense. he told rioters to go home. it tries to give -- it tries to find evidence. >> can you forward it to merrick garland? >> i think he has all of this material and more. he's doing fine. >> thank you all very much. i just don't know why i'm paying for law school now because she's

not going to have a job now. no. coming up, the academy award nominated documentary tells the love story of a fearless couple who dedicated their lives to studying volcanoes and attorney general merrick garland is scheduled to appear on capitol hill to testify before the senate judiciary committee where he'll likely be questioned on a wide range of issues. a live look at the white house where president biden is delivering remarks on his labor secretary julie su, replacing marty walsh departing the administration to become head of the national hockey league players union. "morning joe" will be right back. ohhh, she's so powerful, she carried on the family legacy.

we were blown away. (chuckles) i not only was a student and an undergrad, but i've been a professor there for twenty years, so it's really a special moment to know that i had a family member who over a hundred years prior have walk these grounds. it's deeply uplifting. yes, it is. we're walking in their footsteps. lomita feed is 101 years old. when covid hit, we had some challenges. i heard about the payroll tax refund that allowed us to keep the people that have been here taking care of us. learn more at getrefunds.com. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice

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tomorrow will be their last day. alone they could only dream of volcanoes. together they can reach them. they meet on a blind date at a cafe. from here on out, life will only be volcanoes, volcanoes, volcanoes. . the unknown is not something to be feared, it's something to go toward.toward. they insisted that this type of close-up study had to be done. in this world lived a fire, and in this fire, two lovers found a home. >> that was a clip from the national geographic documentary, fire of love, which is nominated for best documentary feature at this year's academy awards. it tells the story of adrenaline

seeking vol cannologistses and lovers, they risked and lost their lives studying the dangers and inner workings of volcanos around the world. and joining us now, the director of the academy award nominated film, sarah dosa, it's so great to have you on. congratulations for the nomination on this film. what drew you to it? >> i was utterly captivated by their story. they're such examples of people who pursued their passion with such an unabashed clarity. they were in love with each other and the earth and the fact that they dedicated their lives towards exploring the mysteries of our planet and captured that through spectacular footage. it was truly a dream project for me and my team to work on. >> the pictures and the video is absolutely as the promo even said hypnotic. it's so captivating and so beautiful. what is it about their story

that you hope viewers will take away? >> they in our view had a love triangle type of relationship with volcanos. they were in love with the earth. that radiated through their every frame of their cinematography and photography. for us as story tellers that not just created a beautiful and inspiring narrative for us, but we really hope that audiences can connect with that feeling of love for the planet and conjure empathy for it. we're living at a time where our planet is under siege, if people can care ff it, respect it, understand the power and perhaps the sentience of the planet, we hope that can go a long way in repairing the myriad crises we're facing now. >> can you talk a little bit about their obsession with the volcano. most people run away from them, and they were so drawn to them.

so drawn to them that they ultimately -- i mean, they got as close as a human can get. but what is it about their obsession? >> so katia and maurice were both scientists. they are fascinated from that scientific perspective of trying to understand how the planet worked. they were drawn in by that pursuit of knowledge, and volcanos represented this vast mystery. in their own words, they believed that volcanos were beyond human comprehension, so that drew them towards to try to understand all the while knowing that the mystery was perhaps beyond. they also felt kind of almost a spiritual sense when they were near volcanos. again, they were scientists. they didn't necessarily use religious languages, but volcanos represented kind of the ultimate in creation and destruction. when katia and maurice were near volcanos, it felt like they were witnessing the birth of the world, and so for them that was just deeply meaningful,

transcendent experience and made them feel most alive. by understanding volcanos, by studying volcanos, by capturing their power through their cinematography, that pretty much afforded a pathway towards living a life of meaning and principally of love. >> and what ultimately do you think, what mysteries are solved? what mysteries of volcanos or of climate change or of love get solved in this, or do you have to wait and see? >> i think fire of love is actually about the process of asking questions. it's about the unknowns of the big forces of our planet, as well as the mysteries of the human heart. but i think tremendous knowledge can still be gained in that journey towards asking questions. katia and maurice, while they acknowledge that volcanos are beyond human understanding, the process of studying them brought tremendous insight in terms of how our planet works. one of their most notable contributions was that their

imagery went towards producing videos that helped educate governments, decision-makers on how volcanos do operate. in an attempt to advocate for warning systems, evacuation plans to prepare people to kind of live in relationship more with volcanos, you know, in an attempt to cooped of stave off the kind of catastrophic events that we've seen. so they were advocates who kind of communicated almost on behalf of volcanos so people could better understand how dangerous they can be in an attempt to save lives. >> the film "fire of love" is streaming on disney plus and hulu. and finally this morning, a programming note. next wednesday morning joe and i will be live from abu dhabi where i will co-moderate an iconic conversation along with hillary rodham clinton.

we'll speak with keynote guests, gloria steinem, billie jean king and the first lady of ukraine to explore their accomplishments and the path forward in the battle for women's equality. watch this special edition of "morning joe" live from abu dhabi next wednesday at 7:00 a.m. eastern only right here on "morning joe." and that does it for us this morning. lindsey reiser picks up the coverage after a quick final break. break.

you know, there's a thousand billionaires in america, it■s up from about 600 at the beginning of my term.

but no billionaire should be paying a lower tax rate than a schoolteacher or a firefighter. i mean it! think about it. i've never been healthier. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingrix today. subway keeps upping their game with the subway series. an all-star menu of delicious subs. like #6 the boss. meatballs with marinara and pepperoni. i get asked so many times - who's the boss? if you get the boss you are the boss. try subway's tastiest menu upgrade yet.

i'm lindsey reiser. right now all eyes are on capitol hill where we could see fireworks from lawmakers. attorney general merrick garland is literally moments away from testifying in front of the senate judiciary committee, and to say senators have a lot of questions for him, well, that would be a massive understatement. this is garland's first appearance before lawmakers since the fbi'sma