that is considered a loss for pharma, which is the lobbying group that represents the pharmaceutical industry. maybe they are losing some power. brittani sounded shots of the chairman of the senate health committee, and he is dragging these pharmacy deals in front of current congress. we will see if there's more pressure, and if that result in more of this kind of. thing >> we should note, of course, that it started out, that legislation started out considerably more aggressive in terms of what it's gonna do farmer prices and it's a bigger sin print of money from the industry. sean morrow, meg tirrell, thank you for being here. that's all in for this thursday night. rsp john durham, we miss you man. you are great. man alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. when >> he saying about kristen sinema? >> i have got a theory on cinema which is that she really believes all of this which is, i think that -- >> that is more generous than a lot of people. >> is it worse to believe bad things or be able to take bad things?

i don't know. >> we will discuss that later over a during. thank you my friend, and thank you to you at home for joining us this hour. just yesterday, nearly two months to the day after his brutal fight for the speaker's gavel, house speaker kevin mccarthy put that hard-fought victory to work, and announced a piece of legislation that is at the heart of the republican platform. standing beneath the portrait of george washington, the speaker described the parent's bill of rights. >> so many times across this nation we found that parents were attacked, called terrorists, and they simply wanted to go to the school board meeting to be heard about what was going on. one thing we know in this country's education is a great equalizer. and we want the parents to be empowered. and that is what we are doing today. you have a say in your kids education, not government, and not telling you what to do. >> the irony here is almost too

obvious to explain. here is a bill introduced by the speaker of the house, changing the way that these parents children are taught in school. mccarthy is literally the government, telling them what to do. and he is not alone. in the past several months there has been a wave of republican-led bills attacking schools and attacking education. the concept of parents rights has been a rallying cry from republican politicians almost everywhere imaginable. it was listed as a priority in the conservative -- america that speaker mccarthy introduced before the midterm elections. you heard it again during the republican rebuttal to president biden's state of the union and then there are the parents right style bills introduced in states like iowa, nebraska, indiana, arizona, and missouri, the list goes on. but in pretty much every case, the freeze parents rights is misleading. what government officials are actually doing is telling parents and their children what to do and when to learn and how

to understand themselves. there is no politician in america who has seized on this concept of parents writes more publicly, and more aggressively than florida governor, ron desantis. he signed the stop woke bill, which restricted discussions of race in florida classrooms and florida workplaces. he signed the parental rights and education bill, prohibiting classroom instruction on sexual orientation, or gender identity and kindergarten through third grade. this week, florida lawmakers introduced a bill to expand the ban on gender identity education through eighth grade. the bill would also ban people from using pronouns that accurately described their gender identity. so from stop woke to a curriculum transparency law that is prompting teachers to close their classroom libraries for fear of a felony charge, to banning the new african american studies corps, florida has become a model for restrictions that target minority groups and seek to

rewind the clock on the way that we teach american history and social studies. and nowhere is governor desantis's campaign to overhaul american education, nowhere is it more pronounced then any small public liberal arts school in sarasota called new college. >> today, we are announcing a series of proposals to continue to lead in the area of higher education, the first thing that we are going to propose is that we want to make sure that everybody who goes through a florida university has to take certain core course requirements that is really focused on giving them the foundation so that they can think for themselves, and the core curriculum must be grounded in actual history, the actual philosophy that is shaped western civilization. we do not want students to go through a taxpayer expense and graduate with a degree in zombie studies. >> zombie studies, an actual

history. now, new colleges funded by florida taxpayers. it was founded in the civil rights era and it opens its doors to the first class of 100 students in 1964, they provide a hands-on learning experience that was not limited by a bureaucratic curriculum. its founders have complete freedom of inquiry. it was launched to be an institution of students inclusive regardless of race or religion, their national origin, or cultural status. despite that history, or maybe because of that history, governor desantis has targeted a new college. these students and the teachers there are calling it a hostile takeover, and to be honest, if you look at what governor desantis has done thus far, they have got a point. to begin with, desantis installed loyalists on new colleges board of trustees this past january, explaining that the school badly needed an overhaul. >> it has not been successful so much, because i think that people wanted to see true

academics and they want to get rid of some of the political window dressing that seems to accompany all of this. >> they are not true academics, they graduate with degrees and zombie studies. but actually, i went down to a new college a few days ago and wow, did i see something different than the picture the governor has been painting. i have talked with some of the students on campus to find out why they are there and what they are actually learning. most urgently, how governor desantis is trying to change all of it. >> why did you end up -- how did you end up here? >> i was looking at state universities, i toward you f, i toward efforts to, and i sat into the classes, the professor does not know who the kids are. and i toward this school, the professor had the kids phone numbers. the kids, when they had a question on their homework, the story -- she would text the professor, even if it is on the weekend, that is unheard of at school.

>> i came here to try to apply to oxford university but my parents said no, you are not studying abroad. so i was like, what is new college? i searched it up and i am like, oh my god, the tutorial system, they have the close teacher bonds with the students, and i really fell in love from that point. >> what i really liked about it is that it is supportive of the lgbt environment where early on in my transition, i started a new college six months into that. and i was in a very early place, i didn't know who i was, i didn't know who i wanted to be. i was growing into a new persona that i was developing. new college accepts that. a lot of people are in that same boat. and it really gave me a chance to grow as a person and figure out who i wanted to become. >> what about you guys over here, what surprised you the most since you came to new college given your expectations when you enroll? >> new college has a very supportive atmosphere in the sense that when students have a drive, if they have a vision and a passion of something they want to do they are given the resources and support to do it. for example, i started a

collegiate rowing team. you can't just up and start a collegiate rowing team anywhere, i did it as an independent study project. i got coarse credit for it. >> for the better part of four years, i went out, i saw the world, a travel to all these different countries. when i came, back there was no question in my mind, i am coming back to new college. this is a place that will still offer the different perspectives, the different cultures, all of the things that we love about traveling and love about the world, we can get right here. >> when you first heard governor desantis talk about new college, and the context of his war on woke, what was your thought? >> i guess this goes back to last year, or maybe 18 months ago, again with the don't say gay bill, and stuff like that. and when i first heard about that, i mean, i knew that this was not just going to stay through kindergarten through fifth grade. i knew this was spiral upwards. >> why did you know that, how did you know that? >> just iding things historically, and understanding that reactionary movements always start from more feasible goals. i just --

any person who studies history knows that is how it begins. it begins with a very easy, feasible targets, and it spirals out from there. it is even happening right now where they pick new college, the easy, feasible target and it will spiral up from here to a grander state wide, and national endeavor. >> i took it as a presidential announcement. i know that he has a lot of talk about him running for president, there is a reason why he has been picking on you college. there is a reason why he is fighting this war on woke. this is who he has made, this is his brand, this is what he does. >> now, new college graduates go on to different phds at a higher rate than many of the other liberal arts colleges. new college students received 74 full fellowships over the past 15 years making the college among the top factories in the state of florida. but new colors remains the target of desantis and his allies, the focal point of his anti woke campaign against education that the journalist, michelle goldberg, compares to the autocratic regime of hungarian prime minister.

when desantis took over the board of trustees at new college, he installed loyalists like christopher lieu, for a conservative activist who has led the battle against critical theory in public schools across the u.s. calling it the perfect villain for his conservative caucus. he claims, and his ideas have been picked up by conservative politicians and pundits across the country. and they are all watching how he applies those concepts at new college. as the new york times puts it, a reconstructed new college would serve as a model for conservatives to copy all over the country. as he said, if he could take this high-risk, high reward ganged it and turn it into a victory, we are going to see conservative state registers -- all over the united states. since ruffo joined the college's board of trustees, he has joined governor desantis in his call for attending the school's diversity, equity, and inclusion office claiming that it divides people. >> one of the items that we discussed, that i discuss today

was governor desantis and legislators present. it is a diversity, equity, and inclusion which sounds great, but in practice divides people, and offers separate judgments on the basis of race and identity -- >> your opinion don't matter! >> my opinion does matter, unfortunately for you. >> other installed trustees eliminated that office. and students at new college are bracing for more. >> what is it like to be a student at new college and be accused of being, you know, a victim of indoctrination by the government? >> i think it is really unfortunate, because one of the reasons that i really love new colleges that everybody said you learn about different perspectives. i think that there is this myth about us, which is why i think we are kind of being targeted, because a lot of these students do you think alike. but what we think alike is, people are people, people are

human, we have empathy, we see someone who is not like us and we say that is okay, you don't have to be like me. that is what is seeming like indoctrination, because we are learning about different perspectives that are not the majority. we are not just learning about white male history. >> is that what you think the governor wants you to learn about? >> i think so. i think a lot of what is being talked about has been cloaking language, and i feel like they think we are not smart enough to see that it is clocking language. so they will say classical liberal art education, they will say family values, they will say all of these things. and every time they have the opportunity to change leadership, to change anything, it always is another white male. >> when we talk about wokeism, we are not talking about wokeism. that is not a thing. what is a thing it is the belief in freedom and the freedom of investigation, the freedom to learn the truth and to find the truth. that freedom which is under attack here, as well as the freedom to feel safe as the person that you are, whoever

you may be, and those are values that i think the majority of people in this country have. and they are values that are under attack right here by the santas. >> governor desantis, this is what he said, he's at the core curriculum must be grounded in actual history. the actual philosophy that is shaped western civilization. we do not want students to go through at taxpayer expense and graduate in zombie studies. >> what is the definition of actual history? that is very vague. >> what do you think it is? >> i don't know, he didn't tell me. >> i think he just wants to show one side of history, but the world is messy, and the world's, the world is diverse. you have to show that. >> when it comes to that statement by ron desantis, i personally find it comedic, and ridiculous in my own sense because i am a neuroscience major and i am minor-ing in applied mathematics computer science and chemistry. >> zombie studies -- >> right, so i don't think that

i have ever seen a major that was ever listed as zombie studies and had that connection with history came about. i think that is someone who must have taken it is on the studies major to make the argument. >> i am an economics major with a finance minor. i would love to sit down with desantis and have me call me radical to my face. my views are not radical, what i want to do as a career is not radical. i am taking one political science class, i'm not taking a gender studies class, and i will not take a gender studies class, no advisers told me to take a gender studies class. at the end of the day, you learn what you want to learn here. >> it is like critical race theory for years, no i can't tell you what they mean. i can't tell you. by woke, do you mean practicing basic empathy? valuing people who are part of your community? critical race theory, union american history? it is so confusing. so it is incredibly frustrating to constantly hear all of these buzzwords and meaningless things being thrown at us, when they have no basis and they don't even seek to understand

why we are here. and i think the bottom line is that here at new college, we do not fear people being educating. we don't fear in people learning about history, and above, all we do not fear any books. i think that speaks for itself, honestly. >> the new college students are fighting back. they have organized campaigns and they are asking people to join a coalition to defend their college, and their educational freedom by visiting save new college dot org. but governor desantis is a well funded and very powerful opponent. he won reelection last year with 60% of the vote and is now armed with what he believes as a political mandate. he has a supermajority in the state legislator. he now controls every aspect of florida's education system from higher education, down to the school boards, to the high school level where he has endorsed and supported candidates across florida. he is preparing for likely 2024 presidential bid, some of the wealthiest donors and the country are cutting him seven figure checks for his presumed campaign. and when it comes to new

college, desantis has already earmarked more than $15 million for his changes to the school. this is an asymmetrical fight. >> what is your expectation about what is going to happen? >> i think that he is going to keep pushing forward this aggressive, anti-democratic program. across florida, across the florida university system, and he is going to try to take it national as well. and that is why it is important, if you are somebody who does not agree with these anti-democratic ideals, to pay attention to what is going on at new college. because it is something. >> his allies have said that new college needs to be overhauled because people are not graduating at high rates, they are not getting high earning jobs immediately after graduation, there is the

dropout rate after the first, here it is quite high. the school needs to be overhauled, really undermining the academics here, and the performance of the students here. >> i think it is absolutely fair to say that new college has issues. i am not a person that is going to say that this college is perfect, our financials are great, already way shun rates are great, our housing is great. the issue is not the students, that is not the issue. the issue is that there is too many lgbt, it is too woke, it is too diverse, that is a strength. i feel like they are using that as a weakness. >> people have been advocating for greater finances to build better dorms, and build better options and support systems for students. and the state never would expand funding. but now, desantis is all of a sudden throwing in $15 million to our administration now that they are coming in for some conservative takeover. they wouldn't just support this school, they wouldn't actually start supporting the school financially until they see it is being taken over at a conservative ideological manner. and that really speaks to what

their priorities are. >> is he going to win, though? >> i think he's going to win if people don't take notice. >> the main thing is the students. the students are still here, the students are still lgbt, the students still respect and encourage for a diverse array of studies and want to really understand the truth of society. as long as we are here, they can't change the culture of the school. >> this is not in any way to shortchange the fight that i know that you guys all have in you. and the desire to stay here. but have you thought, have you at any point consider leaving? >> if it comes to a point where i am no longer feeling safe on campus, and it may come to that point, that is the point where i would have to very seriously consider going elsewhere. >> what does that mean, feeling safe on campus? >> there are a lot of extremist white right wing groups that have come aware of the school. that attention is to the detriment of the students safety. >> do you think that the student body is resilient

enough to withstand a conservative onslaught? >> i think we are. i think students are passionate about new college. it is different from other schools because our students develop a very special connection and bond with the school itself. people are prepared to stay here and fight. >> governor desantis's war on new college has been specific, and aggressive, and thus far very successful. and it is far from over. when we come back, florida lawmakers appear to be ready to hand governor desantis even more power and his quest to remake the public education system. the dean of journalism school comes to talk to me about what is at stake in florida and across the nation. stick around. your brain is an amazing thing. but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown

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>> i hate the follow-up by news with worse news but everything republican florida governor ron desantis is doing in his so-called war and look at the new collagen florida everything could be the fate of the public universities in florida thanks to a bill introduced last week. kelsey tampa bay times puts, that the bill, it would turn many of rhonda sentences wide ranging ideas on education into law. the governor is able to do what he's doing a new college because his governor, he is able to appoint the board of trustees for every collagen

state. this would leave all faculty hiring decisions to the primarily the sentence proved boards. it will also let the boards review any faculty members tenure at anytime. primarily desantis -- primarily, the appointed boards could literally hire and fire anyone they want. -- was unclear, the rest of the bill helps clear their purpose up. the bill removes all majors and minors in subjects like critical race theory and gender studies or any derivative major or minor of these belief systems. it prohibits spending funds on activity is a promote diversity, equity, and inclusion, and federal education courses are prohibited from suppressing or distorting significant historical events or including a curriculum that teaches identity politics. in other words, this bill would take all of governor desantis's ideas from that war on woke and supercharge them into actual law. the bill would allow the

governor to enforce these policies on all of florida's public universities and all of their students and faculty is. joining us now, it's a staff writer of the new yorker and dean of the columbia school of journalism. dean cobb, i find it terrifying, but i cannot imagine being someone in academia who is looking at what is happening down in florida and does not have chills down their spine. first of all, when you look at the fight that is happening at new college, it kind of ragtag, but passionate believers and the mission of this college and the governor of the state, how do you think it ends? >> it is hard to predict how it will end. in the short term, they might get what they want at new college -- >> the governor? >> the governor, rather, might get what he wants at new college. a small institution, relatively isolated, small pool of students, likely small pool of

alumni, that you can just steamroll them. but i think in the long run, this doesn't really work out to their advantage and unfortunately, it doesn't really work out to the advantage of the university system in florida, or the very many college students in the state of florida. the reason i say that is that go ahead, kick out the legs from tenure, and strong-arm people into what majors they can choose. then watch what happens to your college rankings. watch the way in which the competitiveness of your institutions decline. and moreover, if you think you are going to actually do that and attract top quality faculty tier institutions, you won't. >> some people think that this is a really pernicious bid to just erode public education on a whole. to really cement the two tiers of education, the private and charter school world, and the public education system.

do you think that that is how self sacrificing the republican party has got, that they are willingly saying we are going to create a public school system of education that is basically untenable, that really atrophy is the learning process. and that will be okay because there will be fewer lives in the world. >> maybe, but the other part of it is that there is a long term economic consequences to this. outside of all of the ideals, going to higher education, and the principles that universities are supposed to uphold and stand for, these are big employers. they generate a lot of revenue. the university has a whole ecosystem, a whole economic system that surrounds everything that happened there. and anything that you do to diminish and weaken them has a secondary economic impact as well. and i think that once voters in the state, and also there is a pool of and lemon, who are very proud to have gone to florida

state, very proud to have gone to the university of florida, very proud to have gone to the university of miami, and these institutions, and they are looking at what happens in the long run to those institutions not being what they once were. i just don't see the long run benefit of it. >> there is a discreet conversation about what happens to florida. but i think that it is worth stepping back for a moment and looking at the tactics that are being employed here, and not mincing words about what is going on. setting aside the sort of endgame of what happens in the universe, michelle goldberg had a piece saying, basically comparing what governor desantis was doing to what an autocrat like viktor orban in hungary is doing. we had kimberly on the show she said that we should stop calling it a cultural war, this is fascism. this is what it looks like when you have the state trying to control and suppress its citizens. do you think that is an overstatement? where do you stand on that? >> i don't, actually. i don't think that is an overstatement. and i think that if we were

actually looking at what the long term objectives are here, it would be astounding, and terrifying for people. but you know, the fact that it is being framed as culture wars, people thinking this is, you know, basically like the political equivalent of a sports rivalry. we are not thinking of this in the long term in terms of what its implications are for free expression. and that is also weird because one of the things that they are using, the rhetoric that they are using is that this is actually an attempt to bolster free expression. and you, know that is the kind of the hype of cynical of politics as it relates to this. >> i think it is officially called gaslighting, but you know, one of the things about the measures that the governor has always been taking is that they are so, they are both at one extreme, a very vague. you can't engage in activity is that are divisive or inclusive, or divisive, you know? does not mean that the black student union can survive the

witness test? teachers are tapering over their libraries and classrooms not because all the books have been censored, but because they are terrified that they are going to run a foul of these cloudy, murky new pieces of legislation. and talk to me about what the implications are for academics in a moment like this where the fear is almost the point. >> one of the first things to point out is not the reason that we have the tenure system that we have now is going to be a consequence of mccarthy-ism and where people are being intimidated out of their jobs, or being fired, where there were also completions of red baiting and antisemitism that drove many jewish professors out of the profession, of university teaching. all of this was what was learned out of a system, a fishes stick element of american politics. that is where the system has come from. and to see it now, all of that

going out of the window is absurd. one of the absurdities that i have pointed out to a colleague yes that you can't even teach the history of florida outside of all of this, you can't teach the fact that the state of florida owes its origins as a u.s. tour or tory territory, in part to cut off an escape route for enslaved people in georgia who have been given shelter by indigenous communities there. and that is part of the reason why the united states had the war, the first war that culminated in the u.s. seizing florida from spain. >> the irony is maybe the point to not teach the history of florida is actually the point of all of this. to not know your history and not know what came before. we are actually going to talk about that in the next block. if you could stay with us. because coming up next, one tennessee republican lawmaker has a shocking proposal that

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tennessee is showing us what can happen when people disregard that history. on tuesday, a bill in the state legislator that would allow inmates to be executed by firing squad was brought up for debate before the tennessee houses criminal justice community. one lawmaker expressed support for the bill but felt it didn't go far enough. >> i was just wondering about, could i put an amendment on that that would include hanging by a tree? >> an amendment to allow lynchings. as a method of state sponsored execution. representative cherelle either somehow didn't know this history, or chose to recall it on purpose, but lynch mobs in confederate states killed more than 2800 people about one person a week, between 1882 and 1930. 214 people were lynched in the state of tennessee alone during this period. state representative cherelle have sensed apologized and says that he regrets using quote,

very poor judgment. but his democratic colleagues, state representative hardaway had this to say. >> when i heard the statement, i was sad, and i was mad. at the same time. i could not believe that i was hearing that. and out of all committees, a justice committee. the irony. it justice committee. i don't need to hear anybody talk about, it wasn't me, that i wasn't alive back then. i wasn't alive back then either. but i can assure you that multi generational trauma still exists. not in only myself but in all black folks who are in america today. >> back with us is mr. cobb.

this seems like such an expression of why we need to talk about systemic racism and historic racism, and also a full expression of what the right wants to be able to say uncensored, unfettered, why do i have to worry about what the snowflake liberals think of me? i am going to go out there with my vigilante justice ideas, history be damned. >> it is the worst enactment of the idea that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. the interpretation of that is that sometimes we repeat history precisely because people have learned from it. meaning that there are people who observe the worst of the past and want to actually drag that into the president. but when we look at the history of that state, you know, the indefensible, memphis riot of 1866 where black women were raped in mass, and black men were murdered, the aftermath of the civil war, the anti-lynching crusade that the

earlier journalist who fought against lynching began when three of her friends were lynched in the state of tennessee, we walk through the whole history and the whole blood soaked history of what happened in that state and other confederate states and other states that were outside of the confederacy, for that matter. and so, yeah. it is a derogatory insult to the people who actually know what happened in that history, who are the ancestors, the descendants of the people who suffered in that way. >> i think that the representative, hardaway, brings up a really important point. it is not just that no one should be ignorant but saying things like that, it continues a cycle of multi generational trauma. just the utterance of that alone is wrong. and i think that people don't -- there is no conception of the human cost of even proposing an idea like that on the justice committee. and that is where the impunity

-- that, is precisely, that is why you have diversity inclusion training. that is why you teach people history. that is why we talk about racism. it is so that people understand how totally unacceptable it is to even, i, mean to think, it is just the idea of suggesting lynching as a method of execution seems unprofitable in the year of 2023. thank you so much professor, dean, great, wise man. helping me get through what is just a very unfortunate chapter in american politics. really appreciate your time. >> thank you. >> still ahead, we will take a look at the big news out of south carolina tonight where after three hours of deliberation a jury has convicted south carolina lawyer, alex murdaugh, of murdering his wife and son. how the jury came to a verdict so quickly and what to expect tomorrow at sentencing, that is next, stay with us. next, stay with us g sniff checks? secret dry spray. just spray and stay fresh all day. my turn.

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♪ you don't... ♪ ♪ you don't have to worry... ♪ ♪ music (“i swear”) plays ♪ jaycee tried gain flings for the first time the other day... and forgot where she was. [buzz] >> justice was done today. you can always spot a first timer. gain flings with oxi boost and febreze. it doesn't matter who your family edges. it doesn't matter how much money you have more people think you have. it doesn't matter how prominent you are, if you do wrong, if you break the law, if you murder, then justice will be done in south carolina. >> that was south carolina prosecutor creighton waters tonight reacting to the verdict

in the trial of alex murdaugh, who has been found guilty of two counts of murder and two counts of possession of a weapon during the commission of a violent crime. murdaugh was accused of murdering his wife and 22 year old son using a shotgun 90 rifle at the family is rural hunting property. both local and national news have been focused on this case in part because of murdaugh's deep family ties to the legal community and their small corner of south carolina. a portrait of murdaugh's grandfather who served as south carolina's 14th circuit solicitor had to be removed from the courtroom prior to the trial. more recent family history has been the source of considerable intrigue. in the wake of the murder, allegations surfaced that alex murdaugh committed financial crimes including embezzling millions of dollars for his law firm. during the trial, he admitted to some of those financial crimes blaming them on his costly year-long addiction to opioids. he also admitted to hiring a man to shoot and kill him, so that his son could collect murdaugh's life insurance policy.

he could face hundreds of years in prison for those crimes alone. but the crimes that he was just tried for where the alleged murder of his wife and child, and that trial was full of its own twists and turns. initially, he claimed that he had not been present at the time of his wife and son's death, but during the trial the prosecution showed a cell phone video establishing that alex murdaugh was at the location of the murders with his son and wife near the family dog kennels just minutes before they were killed. faced with that evidence, murdaugh then admitted to lying to police and everyone else about his whereabouts at the time of his family's death. but for all of the intrigues rounding this case, physical evidence was thin. police never recovered either of the murder weapons, some cell phone tracking data was lost, and dna evidence at the scene did not paint a clear picture. the defense leaned on those facts during their closing arguments and they asserted that the police investigation was incomplete, and even accused the puck secure shun of fabricating evidence to support a case based nearly entirely on

circumstantial evidence. by contrast, the prosecution painted a picture of a reckless man who found himself in deep legal, and financial trouble and was driven to do unthinkable things. joining us now is nbc news legal analyst, danny cevallos. thank you for being here as we try to make sense of this dramatic outcome here today. were you surprised at how quickly the jury returned with the verdict? >> yes, and no. most trees don't take us long as people perceive them to. they generally take longer in these high profile cases. these close calls, although i am not sure that this was a close call. but in the run of the male case, it is not unusual for a jury to be out, even in a complex case, for about a day, maybe two. but three hours is admittedly short. what that probably means is that they got in the room, they shut the door, they took a quick poll, and nearly everybody must have been on board. maybe there were one or two holdouts, but they talked about it, convince them, and it was

not long before everybody was unanimous. yes, very quick verdict, considering how much evidence was introduced. >> when you say how much evidence was introduced i think a lot of people, i am not a defense attorney, but we will focus on this idea that it was all circumstantial. they never had the murder weapon, the dna evidence was confusing, did you think of that as just a defense like, a line of argument, or did you also see this case as unusually circumstantial? >> in the closing, the prosecution side to the jury that circumstantial evidence is just as powerful as direct evidence. and he had to, because that is what is in the jury instructions. what he wanted to say, and what i think that he could have said is that circumstantial evidence is often more powerful than direct evidence. directness is eyewitness testimony. it is inherently unreliable. circumstantial evidence is about people lie, but things do not lie. and the things in this case did not lie. the onstar data, the snapchat video, all of the steps that

the murdaugh was taking around his campus there at his estate, those things could not lie. and when confronted with those, he took the stand, supposedly to explain them away but his explanation was, i lied. you lose credibility with the jury and the reality is, you probably lost. and maybe he lost credibility early on, maybe he sealed the deal when he took the stand, look the jury in the eye, and said i am a liar. so where could you go from here? >> what a awaits him in terms of future? there are financial crimes that we mentioned, when does he go on trial for those and what are the implications in terms of sentencing? >> he admitted them. most of them, or at least some of them he admitted on the stand, so i imagine whoever is prosecuting those cases breathed a sigh of relief and said that this case got a lot easier. i think that it is very telling to the crimes that he admitted to on the stand, what if he

goes to trial on those, even after admitting them? i think it would tell us a lot about murdaugh that we did not learn during this trial. somebody who we know committed a crime that he admitted to it, why would he go to trial? if he doesn't plead guilty and he decides to take a jury on those crimes, i think that will be very telling. we will learn even more about who this person was, because i don't think that we learned a whole lot when he took the stand, and move whatever web he tried to weave there. >> i will just say, to the point of the evidence we did have, technology played such a role here. i, mean snapchat, and the phone tracking on the steps, it is in many ways a murder case three point oh. >> that is a very interesting point that you make. really, jerry is like to play detective, they like to arrive at conclusions on their own which is why i think that circumstantial evidence is so powerful because jurors control their own entrances. they get in the room, and i think we figured it, out it is a mystery.

and what they saw here was a defendant who thought that he was clever, maybe 30% clever, but he had no idea that there was 70% of all of this data that he never imagined. he probably knows nothing about snapchat, and a thing about onstar, nothing about how our phone track says. most of us don't, a lot of us learned about it during this trial. so he was clever, but not clever enough. i think that the jury saw that. >> they sure did. thank you for joining, us we really appreciate the analysis. we have one more story for you tonight, a congressional committee takes a major step to possibly holding new york republican congressman george santos accountable for, well, a lot of things. that is next. that is next

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through ethics that he has broken the law, then we will remove him. but it is not my role. >> that was how speaker kevin mccarthy a little over a month ago punting on the issue of serial liar, congressman george santos of new york, punting on him and sending him over to the house ethics committee. today, the ethics committee says that it has established a bipartisan investigative subcommittee that will investigate george santos. the subcommittee says that it will determine whether representative george santos may have engaged in unlawful activity with respect to his 2022 congressional campaign. he feels to properly disclose required information on statements filed with the house. violated federal conflict of

interest laws in a fiduciary providing services. or engaged in sexual misconduct towards an individual seeking employment in his congressional office. it is quite a bit to get through. santos's office has acknowledged the ethics investigation and tweeted that the congressman is fully cooperating. for those of you keeping a score at home, this is now a congressional probe that santos faces in addition to local investigations from district attorneys in two new york counties, the new york state attorney generals office, the justice department, lot enforcement in brazil, and again the ethics committee in a house where he is part of the majority. that is probably not the list of accomplishments santos's constituents were betting on for their freshman representatives but it is nonetheless an impressive feat for someone who has only been in congress for two months. that does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow, now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell, good evening lawrence. >> good evening alex, serial liar,