hi, everyone. 4:00 in new york and if it's friday or for that matter any day that ends in y, we have more breaking news. the disgraced twice impeached

ex-president it is explosive reporting from the washington post. there's this saying when it comes to donald trump and his slogan, remember the one on the hats, make america great again, that what maga said make attorneys get attorneys. the late breaking news from the washington post proves this case that now donald trump's attorneys appear to be in special counsel jack smith's cross hairs including some of the most notorious ones. federal prosecutors investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election have asked witnesses extension sieve questions about the actions of rudy giuliani, including where he got his information about alleged fraud, what he did in the days around january 6th and what he knew about the actions coming that day. people who have appeared in front of the grand jury say. investigators looking into classified documents pertaining to mar-a-lago have sought testimony from another trump lawyer, ben cork ran saying

there is evidence that the former president used the attorney's legal services in furtherance of a crime. and prosecutors have repeatedly sought information on the actions of yet another trump lawyer, boris epstein, in connection with both the classified documents case and trump's false electors scheme. quote, they have quizzed multiple trump attorneys involved with the documents case, including kristina bagg, elena hava and jesse binnall. the investigative activity highlights one of the ways in which the trump probes are unusual and complex turning some of his many or current employees into investigative targets. by our count, that's half a dozen of trump's lawyers being grilled by jack smith's investigators, or in some cases brought before a grand jury. half a dozen, at least. as the washington post points out, that is not only unusual, it is potentially a clue that

jack smith and his team are picking up the pace in their investigation, investigations with an s, plural, into the disgraced twice impeached ex-president. that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. joining us, one of the journalists who shares a by-line on that piece. jackie alameni. joining us frank taglusi. andrew weissman is back, a former justice department prosecutor as well as the former senior member of robert mueller's team. and rick stengel, all msnbc contributors. jackie, tell us what you guys have learned. >> yeah, nicole. we kind of just wanted to give readers a broad stroke of where we are at this moment since there's been little visibility into the special counsel's parallel investigations into

classified documents and the january 6th investigation, but in sort of reading the tea leaves overall, what we have seen is a flurry of action, as you noted, a handful of witnesses, including primarily a lot of trump's lawyers. always picks the wrong time to play with a squeaky toy. >> that's okay. we like it. we knew it wasn't you. >> trump's lawyers have come before -- appeared before the grand jury. one of his lawyers had an interview with the fbi on both fronts of these investigations, again, because they are taking place in parallel tracts before these grand jurys, and then on top of that the special counsel has triggered a bunch of legal fights in these sort of -- in this remaining sprint to get these done. by all indications the way we see it, he's sort of sprinting to reach a charging decision before the 2024 presidential

primary really heats up. we've spoken to people who know jack smith's work really well and they say he could care less about politics. one of the reasons why he has this job is because of his reputation of being aggressive and moving quickly, but some of these legal fights that have been triggered, such as the fight to pierce the attorney-client privilege through the crime fraud exception that evan cork ran is now fighting, they are potentially appearing in oral arguments next week, along with the fight over congressional immunity with regards to vice president pence. this could extend some of the important information gathering targets a that smith has left in the file cabinet. >> jackie, it's such a comprehensive piece. i want to read a little bit more from it on the lines of what you're talking about, about how these two sort of piece together and are pacing together it would appear. in the documents case prosecutors are examining whether trump or his aides

mishandled classified information flouting the return of classified documents or attempted to obstruct government efforts to retrieve those materials. the investigation of events surrounding the 2020 election seems broader. with smith and his team probing the funding and organizing of fake elector slates and events leading up to the riot at the u.s. capitol. 2020 election crimes in georgia is also underway with charging decisions expected this spring or summer. it's interesting to layer in there in your reporting the other probes, and i wonder if you have any insight into whether the existence of that other probe fast tracked or at least brought on par jack smith's investigation or investigative energies for the probes that emanate from the january 6th insurrection. >> yeah. i mean, that's a really good question and, again, it's something that we did not have that much visibility into and the justice department has done an extremely good job of sort of trying to keep all of these

external factors out of what they're doing. but it is -- it's sort of hard to see how these couldn't affect one another in some way. we do know that overall when you're looking at the january 6th investigation it's far more complex and challenging to prosecute amid the potential targets are still even unclear and what crimes ultimately and what charges jack smith could land on really vary, whereas, the mar-a-lago classified documents case, as we've said all along, is far more clear-cut. when we look at, you know, the fulton county -- bonnie willis and the work that she's done and how quickly she's done it, you know, you've got to wonder if there is any sort of impact or repercussions on main justice department for the pace that they've been going. >> i want to ask you about the

lawyers that you have detailed reporting on in terms of their participation and appearances, and there's one we haven't focused much on called jesse binnell. binnell was speaking with witnesses about establishing common interest privilege, the extension of attorney-client privilege to shield information in the documents case. that's according to people familiar with the interor. other trump lawyers were quizzed about how trump's legal team handled the subpoena for the documents in the summer of 2022. this is so interesting because -- and i think andrew was involved in this in his work on the muller probe specifically with manafort and others that were scrutinized, defendants have a right or targets or subjects have a right for their lawyers to talk. boris epstein was asked if it

went beyond what you're allowed to do. can you flesh that out for us? is. >> yeah, nicole, i'm glad you raised this. it is completely legal and appropriate for lawyers to feel around to other witnesses who do have a shared interest in having some sort of joint defense agreement, but these questions that prosecutors have been asking witnesses, people like jesse binnell who works with boris epstein, you know, those questions imply in some way that they feel like there might have been inappropriate lines of questioning when it came to forming some sort of joint defense agreement but, you know, we do not have reporting on what exactly the answers were to this line of questioning, we just know that is something that has come up in those conversations between prosecutors and these lawyers. >> i'm going to bring in andrew weissman in on this one. do you read it the same way,

andrew, that they're questioning him? i mean, they're pretty wide latitude given subjects or targets for their attorneys to be in contact and coordination even. so if they're probing, and let me just get the reporting accurate here, this is about an attorney named jesse binnell and it says binnell was questioned about whether epstein tried to influence testimony by speaking with witnesses and the extension of attorney-client privilege among lawyers whose clients have shared a strategy to shield the information in the documents case. i ask that, i guess, wanting to understand what these questions are about, one, and, two, there's an active -- a live wire of an obstruction of justice probe that has also been revealed by doj in their affidavits in this case. >> sure. let me try to break this down. nobody, whether it's a lawyer or a non-lawyer, can try to get a

witness to change their testimony into something false. for instance, to have two witnesses align their testimony improperly. it doesn't matter if you're a lawyer or non-lawyer. the reporting is very careful as it seems to say they're being asked whether a lawyer did this outside of a joint defense privilege. now if that is going on, that same sort of coaching, that improper coaching is going on within a joint defense agreement or just from a lawyer speaking to their own client without other clients being involved, that would also be improper, but the issue is in order to ask those questions, what's going on between a lawyer and a client or what's going on in a joint defense agreement, you would have to get a judge to approve that because if you can't show that that's in furtherance of something like crime of fraud, you won't be able to pierce the attorney-client privilege. we've heard about that exact kind of motion being made by jack smith to be able to ask

those questions about what's going on between lawyers and lawyers and clients but they have to get court approval in order to do that. but it does suggest that what they're really going after and exploring is obstruction of justice, and obviously that is key to the mar-a-lago case because it's not just about the taking of the documents but also that affidavit that was submitted in june that said that we've turned everything over and obviously jack smith is going to want to follow that up the chain to see who ultimately made those statements to mr. corkoran. presumably that will get to the former president. >> i mean, andrew, the non-lawyer in me feels like it's safe to say that donald trump has never been the subject of an investigation he didn't seek to obstruct. it would seem that what is public facing is ample evidence of obstruction of justice on the

part of the president and all of his attorneys. >> yeah. so what i would say is -- i wouldn't say that the obstruction is necessarily all of his attorneys because i do think -- i agree with the first part of what you said, but you could end up in this case seeing a lot of attorneys being key government witnesses, such as pat cipollone, pat philbin, a number of former white house attorneys who could have very damaging evidence, both on the january 6th investigation as well as on the mar-a-lago investigation in the same way reminiscent of our investigation in the muller probe where don mcgann was a key central witness to the former president's obstruction of justice. in fact, he was the person who was being asked to say something that was not true and to submit an affidavit that that was not true. you could end up with this essentially being two investigations that come to

fruition where former white house lawyers and even personal lawyers like eric corcoran -- adam corcoran are going to be central to the government's case. >> andrew, we talk about and we've talked for years, i think, around this concept that the crime fraud exception lets you prick, pierce the shield between the client and the lawyer. it feels like we've got it slashed open. we have three lawyers that have already been in front of the grand jury. where are we where you cannot have your lawyers lie for you in the commission of a crime? >> so, you know, we don't know exactly what they have ruled in this case, but we have a pretty darn good idea because she issued this -- she dealt with this exact same issue in the manafort case and she wrote a public published decision that

is going to be a blueprint for jack smith, and there with respect to manafort we said that he used a lawyer to submit something false to the department of justice. and we said that is not only not attorney-client privilege because there's nothing privileged about asking your lawyer to submit something false to the department of justice, but it's also part of crime fraud and the judge agreed on both counts. and that's clearly what jack smith is going to say here. it's really inconceivable to me that barrel howell, the judge that's going to be ruling on this, has not already said that or is going to imminently say that, which means that these are conversations that jack smith is going to be able to get at either in the grand jury or interviews or both. that means that he's going to be able to go up the chain. in other words, he's going to find out from his boss who told her the factual information. the same with mr. corcoran.

ultimately it may go to boris epstein, maybe the former president, but that hot potato is going to get passed up the chain until somebody owns it. the presumably as we did with manafort, it was manafort and rick gates who told the lawyer what to say that was false and presumably that is what jack smith is looking to see whether it was the former president who did that. obviously we can all look at this and say of course it was him. it doesn't fly in the court of law, you need the witness to say that, and jack smith may be saying that as we speak. >> so, frank, jackie started this or framed it around what her reporting reflects about pace, but she added this caveat that jack smith, and i'm sure andrew agrees with her assessment, doesn't give a bleep about the politics or the political calendar. i want to put it around a different beating -- ticking clock, and that is the national security concerns that were really in focus when the mar-a-lago case first burst into

public view and it wasn't know what sensitive classified documents were there. the more we've learned, the more ominous that picture has become. i believe the last body of public news reporting is they don't know what they don't know about what's still there. take me inside the imperative of the timing from a national security perspective. we'll start with the mar-a-lago case. >> i really have to echo what's been said about the pace by jackie here. i don't think the agents or the prosecutors at this point in time because, look, time has regards to the documents case, yes, is there a certainty that they've got everything? no, absolutely not. but i think it's far more important when you know you're going to get one shot at something, one chance to get it right, that you've got to nail it down. all the legal is have to be dotted, the ts crossed, so i

think that's what jack smith is far more concerned about than what the calendar looks like in terms of primary activity. they may be aware of it, of course, sensitive to it, but they're not going to use it to drive the case. the national security concern, you know, in addition to the documents, let's not forget on the election side and the attempt to alter the election outcome and to the ability to call out and instigate violence on january 6th and on other days and at other places, that, to me, is equally if not even more important than whether there's a couple of documents out there outstanding. why? because we still see trump out there, and his cohorts, calling people out, attacking fbi personnel and generating the big lie again and again and again which we know has been proven to reduce violence. there's a national security issue, it would be the

instigation of terrorism. more important to get it right though. and i think this whole reporting that jackie has on lawyers being approached, looked at, talked to as opposed to the trump spokesperson who today said oh, this is proof they have a weak case, i see it differently. i see this as prove that jack smith is absolutely taking a broad approach, no stone unturned, and is unafraid to go into some very delicate legal areas that look into common interest privilege, attorney-client privilege. i think he couldn't care less. he's going to go where the facts go. i think as andrew said, nobody does this willy-nilly. i've never seen a case that goes, we have nothing. why don't we try to jam up lawyers. no one does that. you do it only when you have an indication that there's some criminality involved that touches on the lawyers and that's what i think jack smith believes he has. >> frank, to your point, what's

public facing suggests that some of those steps have already taken place, that's why it's burst into public, because some of these attorneys have already been before a grand jury. let me stay on the 1/6 related investigations and read this to you from jackie's reporting. quote, barring unseen complexities, litigation regarding corcoran's testimony could be resolved within two to three months. prosecutors do not need to argue that an attorney knowingly acted wrongly, only that their actions came as part of a criminal scheme. the standard is lower than the probable cause standard that was needed to obtain the court-approved search warrant for mar-a-lago in august. compelling appearances from some witnesses in the election-related probe, including pence and meadows, may prove to be a thornier endeavor for the special counsel and jackie goes into pence's reliance on the speech or debate clause and points out smartly judge michael ludwig is making a

laughing stock of that. it is clear the office of the special counsel is pushing these carts full of legal steps and maneuvers through the aisle at the very same time. >> yeah. the yeah. he's -- he's -- he's doing two things at once. he's multi-tasking. i feel for the agents assigned to them because they are hustling, hustling, hustling i'm certain. there's a more macro picture here that's intriguing because the whole history of donald trump has been to use and abuse legal process, right? he sues everybody. he never pays anybody. you need only go as far as michael cohen to look at hush money being paid, you know, through an attorney, right? and so this is his m.o. it's been this way for his life. and jack smith is saying, you know what, time-out on that methodology. we're going to call time-out on you using lawyers for the purpose of criminality. i applaud the effort.

this may finally be the end of the road with regard to wrapping yourself in a legal -- abusing the legal process by wrapping yourself in attorney-client privilege when your whole intent from day one is crime. >> no one embodies the wrapping and the criming more than one rudy giuliani. let me show you what cassidy hutchinson testified to about rudy giuliani's role in the planning for 1/6. >> i remember him saying, rudy, could you explain what's happening on the 6th? he responded something to the effect of, we're going to the capitol. it's going to be great. the president's going to be there. he's going to look powerful. he's going to meet with the members. he's going to meet with the senators. talk to the chief about it. talk to the chief about it. he knows about it. >> i mean, whitingly or unwhitingly rudy giuliani seemed to have implicated the president, the chief of staff, the senators in a conspiracy to

overturn the u.s. government. >> piggybacking on that. there's a reason we have a mob lawyer term. he's tried to turn every lawyer into a mob lawyer. it's so ironic. it's even sort of shakespearean that rudy giuliani who as u.s. attorney for the southern district was the great prosecutor of maffioso himself. >> and was taking notes. >> and has become a mob lawyer himself. it's sad, it's tragic. part of the reason we're discussing this, i would be curious what andrew says about it, there must be a special place in lawyer hell for lawyers who violate the law and become mob lawyers. i assume jack smith and any prosecutor must have a special animus against people like that. by the way, that's just chapter and verse all the lawyers who have ever worked for donald

trump. >> andrew? >> so i think if you think about how the special counsel's looking at jeff clark, who is the attorney at the department of justice who said, i want to be the attorney general. i'm going to say that we're doing a fraud investigation because it will give bigly or the former president to claim fraud, it's hard for me to believe that that -- that jeff clark does not hold a special place in terms of the department wanting to see if there's a criminal case that can be made against him, precisely for, as rick said, it's not the animus that's unrelated to the facts, it's an animus that what he did so violates what the department of justice stands for, which is impartial justice and the idea that he was going behind people's backs to do something that was so political. i mean, talk about weaponization of the department of justice. it's the irony of all ironies

that we're watching hearings that are supposed to be about that when jeff clark is the poster child for the weaponization of the department of justice. so i totally agree with rick that that kind of person with that kind of conduct, it's so important for the department of justice to be able to vindicate their interests here because the public has a right to expect law enforcement, and certainly our attorney general, to be completely apolitical. when they see people at the department who are not doing that in a criminal way, as i believe jeff clark was, it's so important to get to the bottom of that. >> andrew weissman, thank you for starting us off today. i know we wrangled you from other things. thank you very much for saying yes. jackie, frank and rick stick around a little bit longer. there's more when we come back. a new report by house democrats pulls the curtain back on what andrew weissman is talking about. jim jordan's committee and his

effort to gin up his effort to support conspiracy that the federal government and the deep state was out to prosecute conservatives. this new report finds -- well, jordan doesn't have the goods. that's next. plus, tensions boil over at a town hall between east palestine residents and the train operator. and the republican war on abortion access. pharmacy chain walgreens caves to pressure by republicans. and they will stop distributing abortion medicine in states where they're legal. we'll bring you those stories and more when "deadline white house" comes back after the break. don't go anywhere today. ♪ honestly i don't care ♪ find the perfect vacation rental for you booking.com, booking. yeah.

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so, you know, the funny thing about staking your entire political brand on vague accusations of victimization, stuff like the libs are out to get us, for instance, is at some point when you're back in control it's time to put up or shut up. sadly right now it does not appear republicans are able to do either. vermont's house republicans have sworn up and down they were -- for months house republicans have sworn up and down they were going to bring to light weaponization, evidence of it. the federal government is sweeping pervasive bias against conservatives. to make that ambitious case they have claimed publicly a group of valiant whistle blowers has been assembled, they're ready and eager to share their firsthand experiences on the record. today though it's more clear than ever this is shaping up to be a classic and predictable

case of over promising and under delivering. according to a 316-page report compiled by the democrats who serve on the weaponization committee, a report from the minority that features actual depositions and pertinent social media activity, it appears chairman jim jordan slam dunked whistle blowers, if we're still calling them that, are not all that cracked up that they're to be. it doesn't appear the presumed firsthand witnesses, firsthand witness anything at all, instead "the new york times" is reporting this, quote, the first three witnesses to testify privately appear to be a group of aggrieved former fbi officials who have trafficked in right wing conspiracy theories including about the january 6th attack at the u.s. capitol and, here's the whopper, received financial support from a former top ally of president donald trump. like everything in politics, the weaponization committee's report is a paid effort to then donald

trump get criminal revenge. remember cash patel? well, also from that 316-page report assembled by democrats, quote, based on this evidence committee democrats conclude there is a strong likelihood that kash patel is encouraging the witnesses to continue pursuing their meritless claims and, in fact, is using them to help propel his vendetta against the fbi, justice department and biden administration on behalf of himself and president trump. joining us now, democratic congressman jerry conley of virginia. he's a member of the select house committee, jackie, frank and rick are still here. congressman, this falls in the giant bucket of shocking but not surprising. the report is clear as day that this much ballyhooed subcommittee has got absolutely

nothing. >> it's actually -- i mean, if somebody wrote a novel about how to completely mess up an investigation on capitol hill and run as incompetent a set of depositions and interviews with utterly unreliable witnesses, this would be it. it actually is amazing that they would actually find these kinds of witnesses. malcontents that left the fbi because they couldn't do the job or wouldn't do the job. serious issues of, you know, almost cultish behavior in terms of conspiracy theories and more troubling than that with respect to january 6th itself, perhaps lending support to its direction, and these are their primary witnesses who, as you said, have witnessed nothing.

so they're not whistleblowers, they're malcontents who couldn't cut it at the fbi. >> what is the democratic strategy? you've called them out. it seems like the weaponization of bill barr and donald trump and especially what we've learned from the durham probe is ripe for examination. >> absolutely. >> right? i mean, can you -- i know you're in the minority. what is the ability to do the stated mission of this committee? >> well, i think we have a role to sort of call out the republicans, as we're doing right now, when they -- when they go awry, which seems to be with great frequency. and to be truth tellers, right? to have a truth squad as the democratic minority in reminding everybody what the real weaponization was. one of your panelists earlier cited if you want weaponization, look no further than jeffrey clark, and i think that's

absolutely right. and i think we have to do that at every turn. we did it, for example, on the alleged republican charge that twitter -- democrats and twitter were collaborating on content censorship. we had a hearing that proved the opposite. it wasn't democrats, it was in fact republicans and donald trump that did it and we got every single witness, including their three, to so state under oath. we do have opportunities, really robust opportunities, to throw the flag down when they come up with a fabricated or distorted narrative, or with witnesses who are completely unreliable and can't be relied on for anything in terms of testimony or truth or veracity. i think that's an important role and we'll play it vigorously. >> let me ask you about kash patel. this is from "the new york times" reporting. mr. owe boil and mr. friend, the

two disgruntled fbi folks, both testified that they had received financial support from kash patel, a trump loyalist and high-ranking official in mr. trump's administration. mr. patel sent them $5,000 and patel supported his book on social media. isn't kash patel now receiving limited immunity in one of doj probes into the trump documents and funding witnesses? what are your sort of -- what is your pile of questions about kash patel? >> so over and above the credibility of these so-called witnesses, i think it raises serious ethical issues. you're paying witnesses who are being deposed by a select committee looking at the weaponization of the federal government when you, yourself, are involved in that discussion in a different venue at the

department of justice. and i think that compromises these so-called witnesses, none of them in fact are whistle blowers. and so i think this raises real serious conflict of interest issues but maybe more importantly real ethical issues. >> is there anything that you've seen that rises to the level of wanting an i.g. or any sort of criminal examination of -- have you churned anything up? i know the minority, it's harder to speen be na witnesses, but you mentioned ethical questions. do you have ethical questions about the way republicans are conducting themselves on this committee? >> i'm not going to get ahead of my select committee leadership on that. we'll see where this takes us, but right now i think -- i think we're -- we have an obligation and i think we're fulfilling that obligation in questioning the voracity and reliability and credibility of these witnesses

who were much ballyhooed at our first hearing by chairman jim jordan. and if this is the best he can do, crackpots who are incompetent, who can't make it, who are being paid by a right wing operative to -- to apparently cooperate in this kind of narrative, i think you're in deep trouble. if that's the substance, sum and total of your process and your hearing, i don't think you're going to have much to talk about as we move forward. >> yeah. i mean, i think even republicans know that you lead with your best stuff and if their best stuff included chuck grassley, i think your assessment is spot on. >> who, by the way, spent the whole time on grievances. i mean, it was -- it was -- it was like the story of chuck grassley's, you know, hall of fame grievances in his tenure in senate. that was the best they could do with their lead witness. >> i guess the thing that i can't be get over is they were

in control. trump was the president and the politization happened under bill barr. is there any -- is there just a complete absence of shame? do they just act like that didn't happen? >> yeah. and i think, you know, they do a lot of project shunning. >> right. >> when they say there's weaponization going on. as we said at the hearing, yeah, there is, by donald trump's administration, and it's still ongoing. and so when they say, you know, there's fake news. yeah, they're making it up every week on fokts and other right wing networks. so it's kind of an interesting pattern, not only by donald trump himself but frankly of our republican colleagues. >> we all need the psychology degrees we didn't pursue, or at least i didn't pursue. thank you very much for joining us. thank you for the report as well. >> thank you. >> we'll get jackie, rick and

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the ranking member on how we handle that information. >> thank you. >> on the theme of we've got nothing, that was goldman a accomplished and be veteran prosecutor calling jim jordan's bluff on those dozens of witnesses and transcripts and notes that so far, we may be proven wrong, but so far as we sit here at 4:43 on this friday do not exist. jackie, i have to admit, i don't have high expectations of the republicans, but i really did believe there was something they would have taken from the success of the january 6th select committee hearings, either in substance or production, and apply them to this committee, and that they did neither. it really did surprise even me. >> nicole, i think it's actually been surprising to people in conservative circles and some of the gop lawmakers who sit on jordan's committee as well.

he is facing buckling criticisms and frustrations from some of the members and, again, others, people who are in these organizations like the cra heritage foundation. you're seeing them become frustrated with what they perceive to be jordan's slow, unfocused and disorganized approach to this investigation. they feel like he needs to devote more resources, that the committee should be less in the style of the 1975 church committee and more a direct reproduction of the committee, that it needs to be not just a fox news clip producing machine but actually really dig in to civil rights, liberty abuses and overstepping of the federal government into potential or what they -- what a lot of republicans claim to be abuses by the doj, the fbi and federal organizations. the and obviously that criticism

is a bit incongruent with this very accurate informational based report put out by democrats about the types of people, the whistle blowers -- the whistle blowers who are coming forward and trying to provide information to jordan. so he's walking a very fine line here in trying to stand this committee up. >> frank, what is the -- i mean, if you're the fbi, regardless of your sort of political instincts, jim comey was fired because he wouldn't, quote, see to it to let mike flynn go. mccabe is fired a week before he would have seen his full pension. stark and page are prevailing because judges see that maybe they're correct. the politization is epic. i don't know if there's been another special prosecutor who

repelled another prosecutor like nora donahy. i mean, politization of the federal government took place in historic and epic ways under donald j. trump. bill barr bragged about it. he said they're like montessori students. a real look at politization of law enforcement may actually be justified, but jim jordan isn't interested in that. he's not the guy to do it. what is sort of the cognitive dissidence inside the fbi? >> really there's a sense of frustration here that i have not perceived in a long time. they're keenly aware that this weaponization of government subcommittee has actually weaponized the government so no one should be surprised of that. they're very frustrated here because they're dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. if they come out and really tell the true story of these agents,

the so-called whistle blowers, they're going to be seen as attacking, you know, their former personnel, being very defensive. if they say nothing there's an implication or inference by people that maybe this is right, what these people are saying. so, look, i'm going to come right out and do what they can't do. i'm going to attack these so-called whistle blowers first. let me say this. there is a -- for those wondering, hey, semantics, whistle-blower, it's a term of art. it's not a term of art. it is actually defined in the law. there are processes on how you become a whistle-blower. you go to doj. you make that claim, and it's granted and you're deemed a whistle-blower because you're going to expose waste, fraud or abuse, that's the language here. not one of these characters has done that. instead, these very people complaining that everything is politicized have run to their favorite politicians and made their complaints. >> so there you have it. the none of it is real.

you pull back the curtain and the republicans in another incarnation might have done something that we all disagreed with or found objectionable, but it might have been substantive. this is both offensive and substance free. >> yes. who was it before talking about projection on the part of -- >> the congressman. >> i'm going to make an editorial point even though i'm not an editor anymore. >> please. >> i wouldn't use the "w" word to define the committee. the weaponization of federal government. we should never use the term -- we should never say that term. it's the jordan committee. what it's based on is the house of an american activities committee, the most unamerican committee in history, but they gave it that name so that you would say it over and over. oh, there must be communists in the state department. this is the house of unamerican activities. we should never call it weaponization committee. >> you've fixed me. i'll call it the jordan

committee. >> thank you so much for spending the whole hour for us. we're grateful. up next, residents of east palestine got the opportunity to confront the epa. many were evacuated. we'll show you that. ♪ ♪ why are there two extra seats? are we getting a dog? a great dane? two great danes?! i know. giant uncle dane and his giant beard. maybe a dragon? no, dragons are boring. twin sisters! and one is a robot and one is a knight.

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when covid hit, we had some challenges. i heard about the payroll tax refund that allowed us to keep the people that have been here taking care of us. learn more at getrefunds.com. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur.

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kids die in my own home and now i can't do anything with it morally. i'm stuck. no one is coming to save us. >> i was also told it is not a matter of if my well becomes contaminated. it is a matter of when. >> who told you is that. >> >> that was told to me by the epa. >> frustrated and frightened and furious, residents of aeft palestine looking for health and safety in their own homes and drinking water from their own wells. that is from the epa and norfolk southern last month. it is been a month and residents are struggling to get any clear reliable information about what is safe and any ability to obtain financial assistance. joining us, abigail botar for idea stream. she's a local reporter covering the situation. this crisis in east palestine

since the derailment a month ago. abigail, tell us what the current state of affairs is for these residents? >> residents are furious, anxious with authorities. they feel like they're not getting enough help. currently the epa is on the ground working to monitor the air an the water. they continue to say that the town is safe for residents to be in but residents are having very concerning symptoms they say are related to the chemicals that were released that the train was carrying when it derailed. so they just want answers on why they're feeling sick or their kids are feeling sick and if long-term they could live in this town. and they're not getting any. and some want to leave, they feel it is not safe. but they don't have the financial ability to leave the town and they're wanting norfolk southern to help them evacuate. >> abigail, is there -- there are extraordinary efforts that could be made to clean the air,

to put filters in people's homes, to put water supply in that town. are there things that could be done to mitigate what we could clearly see with their our own eyes and they could smell with their own noses, is there more that could be done to help them in the short-term? >> i'm sure there is. residents have been fighting for the epa to be monitoring for this thing called dioxins, which is a chemical compound that could happen whether chemicals are burned and to cause cancer. yesterday the epa did say that they are ordering norfolk southern two monitor for die oxin. so that was a win for residents. something they've been advocating for. but some are still frustrated it took that long. so the epa said they're doing what is necessary in their eyes, that the town is safe and they're going to continue staying there and monitoring for as long as it takes. but honestly, that is not enough for residents. and honestly, i don't think any public official could tell

residents what they want to hear, which is a looking glass into the future for ten years this impact might cause. >> it is terrifying that your kids and your pets and your loved ones. abigail, thank you so much for being on this story. we'll continue to turn to you. thank you for joining us today. >> you're welcome. coming up here, stunning new reporting on how some of the very same people who peddled the big lie, the stolen election in 2020, are now at the forefront of rolling back abortion access for millions of american women. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ♪ ♪ get directv with a two year price guarantee. ♪♪

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the recount won't catch it. the recount just validates the fraud. you cannot verify or validate that the final count and who is declared the winner at this time as accurate. >> hi, again. it is 5:00 in new york. buckle up. this one is going to blow your mind and boil your blood. first off, everything that guy said about election recounts, was a complete lie. a brazen one. his name is phil klein. he's a former kansas attorney general who during the 2020 election was active in trying to convince state legislatures not to certify for joe biden. it garnered the attention of the select committee. he never ended up testifying but he did provide the committee with documents. we bring klein and his election

denying antics up today because his work is part of a larger picture. part of a brazen and comprehensive assault on democracy on individual freedoms and specially on womens reproductive rights. alarming new reporting lifts the veil on clieb klein's work with a law firm called the thomas moore society. an anti-abortion group that got deeply involved in the twice impeached ex president's big lie campaign. from that reporting, quote, leaping into the 2020 stop the steal frenzy which was consistently discredited, the thomas moore society aggressively pursued complaints across the country. the 2020 election law initiative showed it helped fuel skepticism over joe biden's victory and the fairness of elections in numerous states. these persistent legal challenges mirror the fight over abortion.

never stop pushing for the cause in court or legislatures. play the long game. klein did that. he worked for thomas moore as a director of an election project and hired litigators and deviced strategies. what is remarkable, is how that work all fits into the thomas moore society overall goal. which is to further restrict abortion access in america. last summer a member of the group wrote an op-ed that got to the heart of where these two issues are both interconnected. one week before the dob's decision came down he wrote if the supreme court overturns roe, then the struggle will resume. and that is why it is doubly important for prolife advocates to ensure the integrity of state and local elections. that is why this is all so important. and an important to highlight over here on earth one. it is been more than eight months since the supreme court did overturn roe.

we are now all living if a patch work nation. where some states protect women's reproductive rights and the ban to reproductive health care keep coming. any day knew a ruling from a federal judge in texas could come down that could ban a key abortion medicine. when medication abortions now count for 50% of legal abortions across our country. last night a major announcement from walgreens that will have a huge impact right now on women's ability to access reproductive health care. from politico, the pharmacy chain confirmed it will not dispense abortion pills in several states where they remain legal. acting out of an abundance of caution. amiding a shifting policy landscape, threats from officials and pressure from anti-abortion activists. the battle to protect women's preproductive health care is where we begin the hour.

axios reporter and contributor alexi mccann is here and mini timerage and. >> kavita patel is back now an msnbc medical contributor. i'm coming to you in your former obama policy hat. what could be done to try to unring this bell that walgreens has said, i will be intimidate and restrict access to legal medication and deny women in america access to drugs they are legally entitled to have. >> i could only imagine that there were immediate calls and had probably even before the press conference were done, but i would say kind of number one, reinforcing this is legal and not only did the biden administration but the food and drug administration, the department of health and human services and by the way every single major medical society have reinforced not just the value of access but the safety

and the legality of it, especially across state lines. there is a lot of questions, certainly state law is state law. but i think there is a lot of confusion and misperceptions around how women in different states could get access to drugs in other states legally and by the right that they have, especially related to something that a large box retailer such as walgreens sending out this message to communicate to people. so they could put their press conference out and say we're not going to do this. but i think what is deceitful is not make it clear that that is their business choice and just like the biden administration put pressure on insulin makers, nicole, to get them to eventually lower prices, that is the kind of action that i hope is taking place right now not just in the white house, but i hope legislators are also doing the exact same thing. there is still time to get walgreens and other pharmacies back in the game on something safe and legal for women across

the country. >> yeah, i mean, dr. patel, i read this and i thought if women seeking health care were as organized as taylor swift would-would concert-goers, why not have a senate committee convene a hearing if not just to probe what is legal and permissible. why not be more aggressive in protecting something that protected everybody. if there war congressional hearings for concert tickets, why isn't there kogal hearings for drugs. >> as a woman that guns have more rights than i do. none of these things are -- and by the way, many men in this fight, just people in jemt who are frustrated at watching this and i would say that, okay, type, but let's take a page out of people who are upset about ticket surcharges and taylor

swift and insulin and all of the fights that we've been fighting and use those exact same tactics. difference here is that you also have, i think what you're seeing in texas and there has been reporting on this as well, the confusion amongst providers and physicians in general, you have doctors retreated into the darkness because they're scared to talk to women about choices because they've got laws hanging over their head that make them worry that they could get put into jail. there is not necessarily truth to that. it is just that that is the intimidation tactic that the other side, and when i say anti-abortion, misinformation and the big lie as you talk about it, they have all taken advantage of the fear that they could stoke into people. we don't have that same equivalent for tickets and for insulin. but we have those tactics at play. and that is what makes me most sad about the situation. >> minny, it feels like the

energy underestimated is being underestimated again. this is a today problem. this is a tomorrow problem. this is an everyday problem for women in america regardless of their age, gender and it would appear based on what could be imminent, their geography. i know of physicians in new york state who are performing more sterilizations on young women than ever before in their lives because all women everywhere are terrified. and i feel like once again, policymakers in washington are misreading the room. why isn't there urgent action today in washington to ask walgreens why they're not selling these drugs that are legal? >> i think we're going to see some action. i was talking to democratic lawmakers this morning, and about the larger topic about where is business? where is pharma? we've got this case in texas that could undermine 20 years of

fda authorization of a very popular drug, and we have not seen pharma file an amicus brief. they're silent on something that could impact their industry dramatically. so there is a lot of conversation about calling these questions and really being aggressive within industry. so we'll continue to push for that. i think it is been -- but you're not wrong, nicolle. we do need to see much more vigorous action from our friends on the hill and it goes to your overall point about the connection between the folks behind the big lie. and i've talked about this before. what is undergurting all of these attack is the fundamental attacks on our democracy. our attacks on the legitimacy of our courts. there is a through line of right-wing extremism that has infiltrated our society and is frankly like whack-a-mole for our lawmakers. we have to be connected and make sure we're attacking the root cause of these fights. and it is pretty challenging,

but i think american people, particularly women, are fed up and are not going to put up with it any more. >> minnie, we did some research and if i have this wrong please correct me, but the fda has not never withdrawn approval for a medication that wasn't because of a medical season. now i got nothing against viagra or the men who take it or the women who are enthusiastic about the men taking viagra. but what if viagra, were targeted. not for medical reasons, because this is not an abortion drug being targeted to lose its fda approval for any medical reasons. nothing has been submitted on the medical front. it is for political purpose. what do you think would happen if, again, not for a medical reason, viagra were at risk of being taken off the market, unapproved? >> viagra is such a popular profitable drug with no quote/unquote controversy behind it. that if it was viagra, you would see pharma and see the big companies weighing in

immediately. and in this case probably never would have been heard. you have to remember, and you've talked about kez merrick, he has deep, deep ties to the anti-choice movement and they created a bogus organization in amarillo, texas, in front of one judge that could take on a climb like this. so if it was viagra, you would see industry involved and what we're hoping, if this case goes to the fifth circuit, which is the next possible route for the doj, that we will get big business and pharma involved because the results of this case undermining the fda could have dramatic consequences across public health and so many industries. so someone could decide tomorrow there is a legal reason or a moral reason why they don't like drugs for diabetes or what about vaccine authorizations, are we going to put all of those public health -- all of those public health interventions at risk because of this one crazy court? >> so, alexi, republicans are to

blame for all of the dangers to democracy, but democrats are not clean on missing the power behind dobbs ahead of the midterms because privately and publicly even democrats were convinced there might be a red wave, in the pockets on the the white house and the hill that you probably know better than me. it seems from my advantage point it is happening again. we sit on the eve of the fda potentially disallowing a drug with no medical concerns because of the frenzy and the heat around anti-abortion activism which is opposed by vast majorities of not just democrats but republicans in this country. it is a policy fight on the far fringes of the far right. donald trump said extremists were taking ahold of abortion and politics. where is the hill?

>> you'll see democrats often criticizing republicans, of course, and saying what they're doing is too extreme. but to your point, there is not this sort of consistent urgency ahead of a decision or ahead of something that significant that will effect people across the country. democrats and others, as you were just alluding to, are a little bit too reactive in stead of being protective. and i remember talking with minnie and others before the roe decision about how there was a believability gap between the folks who knew that it was a possibility roe could be overturned but didn't believe it could actually happen. that has closed i would argue completely now and we're seeing how far the courts are willing to go to further restrict access to abortion and reproductive rights. and democrats, i think, are planning to do this through 2024. last week vice president harris said that it was an attack on the foundation of our public health system. but they're not out there sort of rallying and mobilizing the base just yet and educating

folks about what matters and why because of this decision. in part, because i think they're waiting for an actual decision to be made. >> which is too late. let me just for our viewers, let me make perfectly clear what could be about to happen. this is from the "times" reporting. a decision in favor of removing approval for the drug regiment would be ub precedented. most likely the first time a court would order the fda to revoke a drug against the agency's will. the fda would immediately appeal such a ruling but yet if allowed to stand it would have significant ramifications in states where abortion is legal. not just in those trying to restrict it. this decision could definitely have an impact on what i can provide and in some ways could it be digger than dobbs. that is the senior vice president for program services at maine family planning, referring to the u.s. supreme court case that overturned roe v. wade last year.

dr. patel, what does this look like if you're -- i don't know, six weeks pregnant in america today, what is that experience like for you? >> we're already trying to plan for it, nicolle. because we have, a very safe and very effective evidence based regimen, two medications that are used in conjunction to help go through a medication abortion, again safely and with as little side effect as possible. but what we will see, without access to this first part of a medication abortion, is defaulting to using a longer course of the second drug that we have in this two part. and you might ask, and you should ask, well what is to stop someone from saying the second drug shouldn't be allowed to be use and those are valid points but having the second drug which often comes with more cramping, longer bleeding, much more of a potential complication that you

don't necessarily safely empty all of the uterine content. so for a woman who is six weeks pregnant and thinking about this, they have to plan what happens if i get to 10 or 11 weeks with this medication and i need to get access. and what we're trying to do is hope coach people and say, well if you had a miscarriage, then you could present yourself and then you could probably be able to get medical care. we're creating an entire hidden curriculum and underground vocabulary for clinicians and for patients. and again, as you said, it is not resonating for people that something for decades when i've had to provide, i have had incredibly strict registries that had to put in an incredible amount of detail and that is what is at question here. we don't even do that for many of our major cancer drugs. so, we have had safety standards that are now being undermined by complete lies and misinformation

and if you could hear the frustration that all four of us are expressing, including you, then it is still not palpable enough because that is exactly what we're planning on. and that is what is happening today. because we are preparing for this to be our future state. we're not waiting to be reactive. we're trying to be proactive. but in the wrong way. >> minnie, what is amazing is the persuasion is over. 65% of all americans she abortion should be legal in all instances. only 20% of republicans, think about this. take the republicans in america, only 20% of them, 20% of republicans think it should be illegal in all instances. this is the fringe of the republican party wagging the dog. this is forum shopping and reverse engineering of extreme policies. this is the supreme court as a political deadweight around the entire republican party. so brutal by damaging that donald trump doesn't want anything to do with it. is there more that could be

done? is there more that could be done to lift this up and bring people together and broaden the coalition around these issues? >> so i think i'll point to the democratic state officials of the good work they've been doing. and i think it is really smart. so governor gavin newsom put together a democratic governors, to be fair, he called it a nonpartisan governor's alliance and it happens to all be democrats. but he's opening the door and he got 21 governors to commit to this cross state alliance. to think about how we protect patients and providers an fight back against back door bans like this medication abortion that is going to come to california and impact they're care. ant the infrastructure in the states that have abortion protections is incredibly overburdened with patients and providers crossing lines. so it is been really important that the democratic governors are talking and collaborating and working together. and the democratic a.g.s have been incredibly forceful in

their response to this case in texas. they filed a very powerful amicus brief and pursuing every legal avenue they can. i think there is hope there. and there has to be conversation about the anti-choice extremist organizations and their funding. we have to go after and cut the head off the snake if you will. lut's put right to life and problematic organizations, let's put them out of business and that is our job going into 2024. >> we'll stay on it here. alexi, minnie, dr. patel, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. really important stuff. when we come back, it is not just reproductive rights republicans are hard at work stripping away rights of all kinds. all across country. including the country's first ban on drag in tennessee. and an unprecedent add salt on the first amendment in florida. plus in an age of lies and disinformation, our colleague metty hassan has a blueprint on what it will take to fight back.

he'll be our guest. and nearly 60 years after bloody sunday, the struggle for equality in our country is step jeopardized by the violence of the far right. we'll tell you about it. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. cool. you're all set. so your home is safe and smart. we're gunna miss you. you can check in on your home. arm the system, we should go. manage your system from virtually anywhere. (thump) (scream) and get intelligent alerts, like when a package has arrived. - bye. have a good night. -boo! when the most trusted name in home security adds the intelligence of google, you have a home with no worries. brought to you by adt. - booked our trip to vegas! you have a home with no worries. - in this economy? what, are we rich?! ♪ ♪ are we rich? we could get a personal chef! i heard about this guy on the news that, that serves a very rare species of fish. highly illegal.

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the nearly unprecedented assault on our rights that is rapidly advancing through republican-led legislatures all across this country, may not be headline news every day, but it is happening and it extends well beyond the dangerous targeting of reproductive access we've been talking about this hour.

just a few up states. this week, in florida, an attack an owe freedom of the press, republican state senator introduced a bill that would require all paid online bloggers who write about republican governor ron desantis, his cabinet or any state legislators to register with the state and disclose their funding? in tennessee, a new law will criminalize drag performances on public property on places where they could be seen or watched by minors. in tennessee and also in mississippi, a tax on transgender youth. both states are the latest to enact laws banning minors from receiving gender affirming care while republicans in tennessee and oklahoma turn their focus to limiting transgender adults from receiving the same care as well. joining our coverage, medhi hassan. and he's also importantly, this is the reason for his visit, the

author of a brand new book, it's called "win every argument, the art of debating and public speaking." plus mia wiley is here, a former u.s. assistant attorney and with me rev rand al sharpton and the president of the national action network. as i read everyone's name and saw that you would all be here together, i thought who would have thought 15 years ago that the four of us would sit together and agree that republican party is the problem and growing the democratic coalition at every level in state governments and in congress and building a bigger political moat, if you will, around president joe biden and as the only way to protect our country from losing rights. you and perhaps others could say they saw this coming. but it has to be that at some point republicans jump the shark even in their own minds. >> i would hope at some point

some sense of sobriety, political sobriety will come to the republican party because they have a kind -- kind of pushed everybody together. when you look at the proposal, you register and tell where your backing came from financially, if attack governor desantis, at the same time, he's being extolled by fox news who is being exposed by their own text messages that they were doing things to just keep their viewership and say things that they did not believe to be true. so not only are they extreme, they don't even have respect for the intelligence of the public while they have been exposed and their pushing desantis, desantis is saying i want to know where a blogger got $50 to write a blog against me. i mean, this is the kind of schizophrenia that has now

become central in the body politic and i think we all have to jointly get rid of it. we could disagree, but we're going to have to unite to try and get some sanity back into the body politics. >> and the political axis of right/left, it almost needs to take a break. do you want to live in a democracy. these aren't republican dog whistles or instincts, these are ought of a autocratic playbook. >> and we're talking about blatant autocracy and they're not even hiding it. if you look at the fact that all that is going on, they're still talking about running the same kind of candidates, people talking about having succession from the union. we're going on sunday to commemorate the march across the edmund pettus bridge in selma, they're talking about going back

to the civil war where we want the red states to succeed from the union. we're in an unbelievable place but we must realize it is believable. it is real. when you have members, major members in the congress talking about succeeding from the union and where you have people writing text messages to each other how they're lying on the air. i know guys in the streets of brooklyn where i grew up that were selling marijuana that knew better than to send messages in writing. they're so arrogant, that they're texting to each other how they're going to lie and how this guy is really half crazy but we're going to purport him to be the president. how ought of whack is that? >> medhi, there is a brazenness and you do the finest job on this network of laying it out, laying it bear and sort of roasting republicans on the weight of their own hip -- hypocrisy. but there is something that ties

them together. some of the analysis of the trump era was it was the cult of personality all around him. what has emerged since he left the oval office is an ideology that even more terrifying than that. it is the desantis lurch toward suppressing access to cover him. that is what this is about. he wants to control his own reflection as he gets ready to step on to a national stage and these bills out in the states that you do a great job and we all try to do a good job shining a light on them. but it is an accelerated effort to take away rights. >> it is american autocracy. and the most important point is that this is not unique to america. this is a global movement. and the desantises and trumps are registering bloggers it is straight out of the kremlin. the russian government has done similar things asking them to register. it is out of victor orban in

hungary. he had a moral power over children and sex but muzzling universities and cracking down on the free press. sound familiar? this is the same playbook. at tack on the media. attack on the black voting rights the attack on college professors and school teachers and gay teachers and trans kids and women's abortion rights on disney, on free enterprise. that is what desantis is doing. as the rev said, it as blaant as it is cynical and galling. and that he's an american orban should petfy us that he could be our next president. >> where do you put the other side, the forces against all of that? because i think you're right. i think the republican party in some ways is more organized now. trump created so much for them and in the two years that he's been gone they've been able to

made headway. it is not mini trumpism, it is something scarier, it is a strain of this global impulse toward authoritarianism. they've had public events with orban. how do you make how the forces are doing in pushing back? >> it is a great question and we should all care about democracy in this country. this is not about big "d" democrats it is about small d democracy. joe biden did an okay good job in pushing back last year. had you the speech on semi fascism. i'm not used to use the f-word. we shouldn't get complacent because republicans didn't do as well in the midterms as they would have liked to. there is still an ongoing threat to american democracy from one of our two main parties and we just need to tie it altogether. you in your introduction did it so well, at tack on abortion

rights and on free doom of the press and books in school. it is part and parcel of the same authoritarian attack on america. and gavin newsom has done a good job in calling out of the hip accuracy when it comes to freedom. it is time for the left to reclaim the word freedom. why on earth has the republican party been able to shout about freedom when they have the least interest in freedom. >> i want to -- i don't want to gloss past as you just said. the words really matter. and i feel like this coalition of the left, the center, and retired republicans or diseffected former republicans, it takes too long to call a lie a lie, a coup a coup, a corrupt person a corrupt person and lying to viewers an keeping them stupid, it takes us too long to say what is happening and then when the truth comes out as it has in the dominion lawsuit, the truth is worse.

how do we shorten the life cycle of what we see with our own eyes an the arguments we're able to make to a broader coalition of americans? >> you're so right. the words are so crucial. i've written a book on the subject but words matter when you're communicating. it sounds obvious. but we as journalists forget this. i banged my head on the wall to urge my colleagues in the media to call racism racism. to call a lie a lie. to use the f-word, fascism. instead we have racially coded and racially tinged or just say racism. let's be blunt and clear about what we're facing because the authoritarians they want to limit language or hijack our language. that is how they win by disoriented us. we need to be clear about the threat and name the threat. >> and mia, a lot of us took too long but the racist knew who trump was talking to. they heard him loud and clear. >> not only did they hear him

loud and clear, one of the things that trump did to medhi's point, he flipped the script on what we called the southern strategy. the southern strategy was the wink-wink, nod-nod, and we'll say thing that you will understand if you're racist as being racist. but we don't want to look racist because that will lose us support. we just want you to know it. that is what we call the dog whistle racism. and what trump did was essentially say, ah, i'm throwing that playbook out. i'm going to be blatant. i'm going to be unapologetic. we even heard and saw him inciting violence in his rallies. don't know why we're surprised in 2021, in january. and the fact that was a constant. he was a sexist and attacking judges for being mexican. on just every level. but here is the point. what he did in flipping that

script is essentially the playbook that a ron desantis or governor youngkin are playing with. we'll call it woke. we will literally attack the very laws, the very strategies, the very conversations where we try to come together as a country and say, what are our shared problems. what should we solve? how do we see whether we're muslim or jewish, how the rise in hate is a problem for us. rather than actually slapping woke on any discussion about protecting rights or expanding them. but i will say this. the majority of the country is very clear, it is speaking when we don't have politicians sadly disproportionately in red and controlled state legislatures, just making it harder for people to speak. to speak at the ballot box, to speak in demonstrations or protestsar to speak through

blogs without being forced into a sense saurus, which i learned is a word thanks to ron desantis. but i think to medhi's point, this is a fundamental threat to democracy. that is a threat to everyone. but the vast majority of the people in this country are rejecting it. and it is whether we hold on to the mechanisms of government, which is what democracy is about that said you can't tell us what we believe, you can't control us, and tell us how we express ourselves, and you certainly can't tell us who leads us by trying to cheat us out aft opportunity to have a voice at the ballot box. >> it sounds so simple but i want to press how you build a coalition so that we're not biting our nails to see which side wins. party on the side of democracy or the party on the side of orban's autocracy. everyone sticks around on the other side of the break. when we come back, meddy will

talk about his brand new book and tem us what it takes to do just that in an age when the other side is not playing fair. spreading lies and relying on disinformation. that is next. we're reinventing our network. ♪ ♪ ♪ fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service. ♪ ♪ ♪ get directv with a two year price guarantee. mara, are you sure you don't want -to go bowling with us tonight? -yeah. no. there's my little marzipan! [ laughs ]

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as you all know, we live in a time where false statements are peddled as truths as often as not it is easy to feel there is no way for the truth to prevail. but our colleagues mehdi hasan has given us a blueprint on how

do do just that. his book, here is a little bit of mehdi at work. >> do the deaths never weigh on your conscience was my question? >> you don't know where you're getting the numbers from. let's pull up the graphic. that is a graph from the american council. i'm wondering why you went on fox and say people are not being deported when 72% -- were deported or joe biden. people asking for asylum is not invasion. and you were in the navy. you should know that. >> that is fine. >> and the president could be a liar. there is no contradiction between those two statements. >> i'm no the going to say the president of the united states is a liar. >> but i've just put to you multiple lies and you've not been able to respond to any of them. >> mehdi hasan, how do you do that? >> how do i do that? i do that like you do your show. we do a lot of preparation for

what we do. and one of the reasons i wrote this book is to say that this is not something we're born like this. people think we're natural born tv people or just put a lot of work into it. there are techniques and tips and methods there you our own experiences or our career choices or things that we've studied throughout history and i tried to put it together in this book to say, look, go back to roman ancient greece and presidential debates in the '70s, '80s, '90s and some of the interviews in the book. this is how do it. this is how you prepare and get your zingers ready to goo. this is how you set your traps and corner your opponents because i want to show people that anyone could do this. i believe that anyone could be a great speaker and debater. >> who do you think is winning, the truth tellers or the other side? >> it is a great question. it is a very sad question and we

all know the old phrase about the truth goes half way around the world -- or the lie goes half way around the world than the truth. in the trump age, it is much quicker to push misinformation and lies and b.s. across the political spectrum, across the country and the world and it makes it much harder for those of us who want to talk about facts and figures to get them across. and what i say in the book is, look, you can't shy away from some arguments. people say i don't like arguing. it is not for everyone. maybe it is for you. i'm not a debater. we live in an age, where democracy, our very democracy is under threat. our public square is under threat. our public discourse is being degraded every day and if you care about our future and your kids' future, you have to stick your head out. you don't have to keep your head down. you have to have the arguments and debates and you have to be equipped to do them. the democratic party side may have great ideas, great arguments, great policies but

that is pointless if you're not able to get them across and other people can't hear them. if the tree falls in a wood and no one is around to hear it. i worry when i see so many politicians who have policies i may agree with and they frame them or sell them or message them in such an awful way and we've critiqued such messages on our respective shows. >> mehdi's new book is a must read as his show is a must see. the book is out right now. pick it up and read it. mehdi hasan, we're grateful for we'll see you on sunday night right here on msnbc. when we come back, joe biden will head to selma, alabama, to mark the anniversary of bloody sunday and to underscore the on going threat in our country to equal rights and justice. that is next.

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>> that was congresswoman aheeka williams and that was her speech today at southern poverty law center event marking the anniversary of bloody superintendent, when then 25-year-old john lewis led 600 marchers over the edmund pettus bridge in selma, alabama, in a nonviolent demonstration for voting rights. they were met with brutal clubs and whips an tear gas. it shocked the nation and helped the voting rights act pass later that year. joe biden will be attending the ceremony on sunday. joining our coverage, president and ceo of the southern poverty law center margareting what and mia wiley and the rev are still here. tell us what is on your mind and what you want to be on everyone's mind at this understand this year. >> thanks so much, nicolle. we were so glad to have congress

map john lewis to our list of people in memory today at the ceremony of the wreath playing at the memorial to the martyrs of the cill rights movement. there are 40 people who gave their lives during the civil rights struggle. and congressman john lewis was one of the foot soldiers of the civil rights struggle. today as we're looking at his legacy and his calling upon us to do -- to make good trouble, we're reminded of his demand that we not stop the effort to protect voting rights for all people in this country. and of course that is on our mind. as we're fighting voter suppression efforts here in alabama and across the deep south. >> mia, i can't stop thinking of how committed republicans are to going the other direction whether it is meddling with the a.p. course in florida, or the 450 plus voter suppression laws winding through 48 states

predicated on a lie something bill barr called bleep. and what is your opinion as we have approached this anniversary. >> i feel grateful because i get to work with margaret and the reverend al sharpton and leaders who are standing up and standing with people and supporting people on the ground and saying, you could try to turn your back on us, but you can't turn us back. that is exactly what we're going to be saying on saturday and on sunday in selma. we'll all be there. but equally important, is that this is the work of the movement and the movement is not gone. it has never been. it is a movement since the civil war. and remind what john lewis said to us and demonstrated every day of his life which is democracy is an act. and the reason that people are

trying to -- politicians specificallily, people in power are trying to make it hard and prevent us from deciding who leads us from being able to frame what the problems are for ourselves, for our families for our communities, it is because we have power. and it is that power that we remind ourselves of as we commemorate not bloody sunday for the violence of bloody sunday, but we commemorate the fact that no matter what folks try to do, our history, our legacy, our leaders, our family members, stood up and said, you can threaten me, you can hit me, you could do to me what you will, but what you will not do is tell me i'm not a citizen. and what you will not do is tell me i don't matter and what you will not do is tell anys of us

that you get to tell we the people that we gave you a job and we could take it away and that is what is going to get us through this. and i have seen it on the ground. we saw it in 2022 in these midterm elections. we saw people coming together who were black, people who were latino, people who were lgbtq of all races, people with disabilities, people who were elderly, saying, no, you won't, no, you don't. and we are going to keep fighting for our democracy. >> rev, what are your thoughts? >> i think that one of the things, it is easy to get discouraged, it is easy to see the rise of people that want to bring back confederacy, that want to talk in very bias ways against blacks, again jews, against asians. but then when you look at where we have been able to struggle and get to, despite all of that, i think that is why sunday marching across the bridge is important. i've been going every year for many years. whether i was preaching at one

of the churches there for the commemoration or not. and one of the things that inspires me is that bridge, the edmund pettus bridge is named after a klansman. and i was able to march across that bridge with the first black president of the united states. that klansman never thought a black would be president. we'll march across that bridge on sunday and the first black woman and woman period, is vice president. i watched today as a man was convicted yesterday, a man from a family that went back a century of lawyers and judges, was convicted of killing his wife and son. and who decides whether he goes and be executed or do life in jail was a black judge in south carolina. and south carolina was the first state to succeed the union. they never dreamed that as a man of that pedigree would have a black man in his hands. and how do that happen?

because people struggled and debt take the beatings an march across bridges and that is what gives me the courage to know we could win and that we're obligated to continue that fight. >> margaret, the last word is yours. >> you know, we hope that this weekend is not only a celebration of the incredible legacy of the civil rights struggle, but it is also a call to action. we need folks across this country to stand up against hate, to stand up against white supremacy and to make sure that voting rights are protected for all people in this country. it is going too be a fantastic moment and we're excited to have people join us. >> margaret wong, mia wiley and reverend, thank you for spending time with us today. the rev will host politics nation on sunday at 5:00 live from sels -- from selma. keisha lance bottoms will be his

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[ applause ] >> a long overduhonor there, vietnam veteran paris davis receiving the medal of honor from joe biden. the nation's highest award for bravery in battle. the recognition is a story, almost 60 years after colonel davis was nominated. his original recommendation was lost. if was resubmitted and then lost again. he was one of the first black officers to lead a special forces team in combat and was awarded tor his leadership for risking his life multiple times to save his team during an enemy ambush in south vietnam in june of 1965. thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. we're so grateful.