>> good morning, it saturday march 4th, i'm michael steele, filling in today for my friend alex velshi. tonight, former president donald trump will take the stage to give the keynote speech to close out the final days of cpac. in annual conference of conservatives from around the country. he usually draws a broad range of republicans making an obvious four presidential hopefuls every few years emhoff. emhoff emhoff emhoff nikki emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff haley emhoff emhoff, emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff who emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff announced emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff emhoff her emhoff bid last month spoke at the conference yesterday. and so did mike pompeo. but they were really the only notable presidential hopefuls who showed up this time around.

cpac's dominated this year by trump loyalists, like representative jim jordan, marjorie taylor greene, and matt gates, kari lake a prominent election denier, who lost the governor's race in arizona last december was also a guest speaker. so is steve bannon, and pillow salesman mike redell. key republican leaders like house speaker kevin mccarthy, senate majority leader mitch mcconnell, and rnc chair woman did not take part in cpac this week. meanwhile, other possible presidential candidates sat out the conference in favor of a different event this weekend. a sign of how the republican party remains splintered with some of its members trying to chart a new path forward, and leave donald trump far behind. instead of cpac, florida governor ron desantis, former vice president mike pence, south carolina senator tim scott, and new hampshire governor chris sununu opted to attend a private retreat with donors hosted by the conservative organization club for growth.

another group has publicly cut ties with trump, and didn't even invite him to its event this weekend. even though, the retrieves is in palm beach, just a few miles down the road from, you guessed it, mar-a-lago. joining me now is nbc's vaughn hillyard, the man with the plan, who is standing by at cpac right now. where he has been reporting from there for the last few days. so von, what is the vibe man? how are folks feeling about cpac? what's going on? >> michael, i was hoping that you are gonna calm and hang out here. we can actually walk the halls together, and have that experience on a united front. but alaska, you left me alone. >> yeah, i'm like holy water at that event. it's not happening. [laughter] >> you chose not to come to the rodeo my friend. but, nikki haley did. nikki haley, unlike mike pence, or rhonda santas, or kristen

new, or glenn youngkin, chose to come here to what was potentially a hostile environment. i've been talking to one person after the next, of who they got for 2024, it's been trump, trump, trump. this is the mega base, and the exact base that donald trump needs to harness and hold onto to make a strong case ahead of the iowa caucus, in less than a year from now. nikki haley, she was i think received a friendly reception. it was not cold, but far from enthusiastic. there are some hecklers chanting trump at her after she took the stage. but i do want to let you listen to don jr., of course donald trump son. what he was on stage last night, he took a direct shot at other republicans who are not here. but they were down to west palm beach with club for growth. of course the conservative fund raising yr president, president donald trump will be here. he's not out raising money from the billionaire chinese

sympathy hissed like others. yeah, they're gonna do that. while others didn't show, i was like yeah they're raising money from the people who don't necessarily believe in america first. >> michael, the question is, which republicans will directly challenge donald trump on a policy basis, or as time's president, you know nikki haley who took the stage here yesterday she didn't mention him once. she took a veil shot at age, mental competency of older individuals running for office. even as she was walking down the halls yesterday i was tried to ask her how she was playing to win over trump loyalist, but she didn't take any questions from press. of course we lived through this eight years ago, the question is, who is going to actually jump into the rodeo and take donald trump truly had on? >> nikki haley may not want to mention this, but she's gonna have to at some point my friend. she's gonna have to at some point. nbc's vaughn hillyard, we look

forward to seeing you again at the top of the next hour. i'm joined now by democratic representative stacey plaskett from the u.s. virgin islands. she is that ranking members of the house select committee on the representation of the federal government. she previously served as a house manager for the second impeachment trial of donald trump. also joining us is michael beschloss, and nbc presidential story and author of many books, including presidents of war, the epic story from 1807 to modern times. welcome to you both. congresswoman, let's start with you. there is a view that this splintered gop field, right, within the party it is splintered. it's something that will wind up putting trump forward, giving him the advantage at making him the nominee. are democrats banking on that happening? and facing him in 2024 as opposed to any other candidate? >> well first can i say that i'm so happy to be here with

the two michaels. michael steele from maryland, who i love, and michael beschloss of. as a history major at georgetown university, you are the gold standard of historians. so thank you so much for all that you do. >> thank, you you too. >> i think right now, i think when you look at trump in all of the other individuals that are desantis, and the others. it's basically a little bit of the same. right? and so we're not trying to focus on that we're trying to focus on enjoying what we have, that we have american people recognizing what we as democrats have done. and what biden has done. as he said in the state of the union, there is a job that he's been doing, and we have to get the job done. and so mobilizing americans, to recognize that it is our policies that are most interested, mo supportive of them. we are putting people over politics. each and every day in the policies that we're putting

forward. while republicans are basically a circus, that's what i can say on early morning television. a circus for everyone to see. >> so michael, that circus has you know, a ringmaster at the center of it. and in this case, it has been donald trump in the past, there's talk about how this is still trump's party. if that is the case, let's sort of play that out a little bit. as a historian looking at the then and now, and the possible. if trump is still in charge, and this is still his party, what does a second trump term look like? >> mussolini, am i allowed to say that? and thank you again for the nice word stacey. you are amazing. our friend stacey has to deal with all of these michaels this morning. i apologize on behalf of both michael and myself. we'll try to behave. my point would be, that as bad

as trump in, in all sorts of obvious ways, look at how this country has changed in eight years. the supreme court now has three trump appointees, one third of the supreme court, god knows what they will rule in contrast to what happened for most of american history. the congress has been gerrymandered, overtaken by people like marjorie taylor greene. who makes newt green ridge in the early 90s look like gerald ford. this country has really been moved. plus, this enormous effort to overturn the 2020 election, the violent insurrection that stacey has been so involved in investigating on the 6th of january, 2021. and the election which they tried to do last november, election deniers especially in crucial states. all of this has had the effect of moving our country into this fascism, and authoritarianism in a way that does not reflect the national divide of our

people, which is probably 60 40 or 70 30, four more normal centrist policies at the very least. this is what trump opened the door to, if you have not had trump in 2016 elected, let's say you had jeb bush or rubio. we may not like their policies, but we will be living in a different world. so you are asking me, what a second term would be like, this is what he was able to do with one term. now if he can into another term, this would be additionally fueled by vengeance, and be surrounded by more strange extremists than he ever was in 2017. >> so congressman definitely laid out what donald trump has exposed us to over the last four years, and continuing. let's talk about what speaker mccarthy has exposed us to in giving tucker carlson those

january six footage. he said that they aired that footage with his caucus, or his team this week. are you worried that that will present a distorted, negative image of what happened on that day, giving more fuel and fire to the insurrectionists? >> let's think about who we gave them to. he gave them to obnoxious fox news. which we have seen in the last couple of weeks, is riddled with lies, individuals who are willing to put themselves and their ratings over the truth each and every time. they have said, internally, that they know that they were lying. and that they know that the election, it was not rigged. that biden was in fact president. but they are willing to put forward a lie. this is the person, tucker carlson, that the speaker of the house gives sensitive documents to. not only are we concerned with misinformation, sensitive

information being put out. but if mccarthy is so concerned about protecting the blue, he's also putting police officers, capitol police officers, good men and women, in danger by exposing who they are, the things that they did to protect the capital, and to protect, not just members of congress, but so many incredible staff and individuals at work and that complex as well. >> so michael, from a historic, or a historians perspective, what we're about to witness with trump's something unprecedented. he's still facing multiple investigations as this 2024 race gets underway. so how do you think this plays into the narrative of his efforts to become, not just the nominee, but the next president of the united states, with all of this legal baggage over his head. we haven't seen any of this before. >> now we haven't seen a president potentially indicted like this, and maybe dealing with serious multiple

indictments from various places, various judicial agencies. that's something we haven't seen before. even donald trump, who has the survival abilities of a cockroach, i'm not sure if he can withstand if he is potentially indicted, and we don't know that this is gonna happen. but let's say in three different venues, at the same time, you know, that's a lot to ask of anyone. especially someone in his late 70s, and may not be the most physically fit person at that age that i've ever seen. so you have that. but even more dangerous things stacey and michael, is that you know, people who try to get a nomination in parties, they do it by trying to appeal to what they think will work. well, look what rick desantis has done in florida. he was known as sort of a nondescript political leader, member of congress. suddenly he really has tried to turn him self into sort of a local mussolini in florida.

what the book banning, the brutal tactics, and even this week, the suggestion that bloggers have to register with the state, for the honor of writing about the governor? and other political leaders? we have to call this what this is. it's fascism and authoritarianism that goes even beyond what trump has talked about. that's what he thinks is gonna work in that party, and in a way, that's the scariest thing of all. >> i find it ironic congresswoman, based on what michael just said about what's happening in florida, that they're the governor wants to use the government to weaponize against bloggers and others. you are on the weaponization subcommittee, those hearings began this week. chairman jim jordan is boasting an fbi whistle blowers, and all kind of nefarious things going on. but the first few witnesses that have come forward so far with firsthand knowledge, haven't had firsthand knowledge of any wrongdoing. what does this do to the

credibility of this committee, and of witnesses, and the overall process? >> while i think it's a waste of taxpayer dollars. for the kind of information that they're attempting to put out, let's get that out there first of all. the gop that seem to be so concerned with wastefulness, and you know, saving taxpayer money, they're the ones wasting money on individuals who are not whistleblowers. they do not meet the legal definition of whistleblowers. and never mind a legal definition, these are merely disgruntled fbi workers who are giving a stories that they have heard, they're not factually correct, they you know, for example, one of them says that the swat team won after an individual, and he was opposed to them using a swati. jair oppose them using a swat team against an individual who's known to carry ak-15's? who is armed and dangerous? of course the swat team will be used for that.

none of them have any protections under any federal statute, or any federal whistleblower group. and what's even more sinister, michael, the michaels, is that these individuals, you can trace their financing back to individuals like kash patel, mark meadows, who have real interest in ensuring that they are protected, and their actions during january six. as well as going forward they're protected insulated from criminal charges themselves. that's, you know, it's shameful, that jim jordan is using committee time on this. when there are real -- when we look at bill barr and how he weaponized a federal government, when he was at the head of the doj. why don't we look at individuals, special agents, fbi special agents that have recently come to light, that we're using the fbi for conservative movements. how about the irs disproportionately auditing african american families?

working class families? things that we can look at, but those are not of any interest to jim jordan, kevin mccarthy, and the crew. >> democratic representative stacey plaskett of the u.s. virgin islands. and nbc news, beschloss, other michaels, thank you so much for being with me this morning. coming up at the next hour, i'll be joined by former mike pence aide olivia troye, and the washington post jennifer reuben. plus a pandemic air program became a post covid lifeline for millions of american families. now congress is letting it lapse. what you need to know, ahead. and guess how many times rhonda santa's name drops a certain twice impeached ex president in his new memoir. spoiler alert, you might be a little bit embarrassed for ron desantis when you find out. the answer is ahead. e answer is ahead. ng. and at chevron, we're working to help reduce

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receive some welcome news this week after drugmaker eli lilly drastically reduced the out of pocket cost of insulin. the pharmaceutical company, which is one of the country's biggest insulin manufacturers, says it's capping the price at $35 a month. experts say this big move could prompt other insulin makers in the u.s. to follow suit. nbc's kristen dahlgren reports on the impact that this will have on millions of american families. [silence] >> coming, up by all appearances florida governor ron desantis is gearing up for a run for president. exhibit a, he's up for a new book. and our own alex batali has

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♪♪ >> tens of millions of americans have lost vital benefits that congress and acted early in the pandemic to help with groceries and essentials. additional food stamp benefits through the supplemental nutrition assistance program also known as snap have expired. low income families will now receive about $95 less per month through snap. in april of 2020, the government implemented the families first coronavirus response act, which helped address the increasing food insecurity that so many americans faced as the pandemic took hold. but now, with food prices so high, and extra benefits and a, many low income families don't know how they'll keep food on their tables. nbc news correspondent dasha burns has more. >> yeah.

>> just go ramos is the single mom. feeding her six kids has always been a struggle. >> what do you think about when you go to bed at night? >> if we're ktrk for the next week. >> her family is among more than 42 million americans who receive snap benefits, what used to be known as food stamps. during the pandemic, the government boosted those benefits. just get received an extra $300 a month. >> it came in handy. it really did. the prices are going so high that we need, we need them. >> these benefits kept 4.2 million people out of poverty. edward is child poverty by 14% according to the urban institute. but february marked the end of those expanded benefits because of a provision in last year's spending bill. >> the scary part for the next month, how regional if? what's gonna happen? >> what are the sort of decisions are gonna have to make to keep feeding your kids? >> either pay a bill, are go

buy groceries. >> that's where you're? >> yes. >> jessica is not alone. food banks across the country are preparing for a rise in food insecurity. >> we have people calling our organization every day looking for more food resources. >> george mattis sick is the executive director of share proof program, one of the largest food banks in philadelphia. he says i've already seen a 70% increase in demand over the last year as food prices have skyrocketed. >> for organizations like ours, that means having to work around the clock to make sure that you're sourcing to serve more people. >> the typical snap households will see monthly allotments drop by at least $95. for older americans, and big families like just because, the difference will be hundreds of dollars. >> the people in washington who are making these decisions, what do you want them to understand about what life is like for you? >> for them to put my selves in our shoes. we really are struggling out here.

to please consider, to think about the children, mostly the children. >> >> and michael it's important to note here that food banks themselves are also facing those increasing prices and having to stretch their dollars further to meet demand, especially as donations are down right now, because people just don't have as much to give, michael. nbc's dasha burns, thank you so much. joining me now is gina petrino, nap deputy director for the food research and action center. gina, welcome. as we said in the prior report, the snap benefits that expired this week kept 12.2 million americans out of poverty and right now, more than 34 million americans are food insecure. so, are these s.n.a.p. benefits adequate enough to meet the needs of american families, especially given what's happening with inflation? >> they are not. you know, for the most part, that's why it's called a supplemental nutrition assistance program. it was a supplement what

individuals currently have. as you had the story before, most americans rely on this because they are external prices and inflation makes it difficult for americans to afford food. currently, the way the s.n.a.p. benefits are calculated is by something called the -- food plan, which is one of the four plants that usda is allowed to look in examining how to compute takes benefits. and this food plant was updated a year ago, it doesn't take into account other external factors like what has happened in the economy, where do you live, what type of difficulty do you have in finding food, how expensive is your rent, or dietary issue. >> so the plans, the strategies, the federal assistance efforts put in place during the pandemic prevented millions of americans from going hungry. they, including our. what can we learn from the

pandemic-era aid programs, and should those types of programs should be made more permanent, going forward, so that you can account for those swings in the prices of food and things like that? >> we don't live in a silo, right? what happens to an individual in a way affects all of us as a community because yes, it kept people out of poverty, but it maintained the economy. usda has has the multiplier effect that snap pass on the economy. individuals are taking that home, purchasing items in their local grocery stores, which is affecting the food production. it means farmers benefit, retailers benefit, it also allows individuals to have extra money, make sure they can pay for childcare, make sure they can pay for housing. and when you utilize snap, right, about $1 of snap is about $1.80 that stays in the

local economy. as you're looking at one of the best ways to increase gdp in a recession, snap is the one program, because it allows so many people to benefit, and not just, that it also creates additional jobs within the food system. >> another important piece of this story or the food banks. they are, right now, scrambling to prepare for an increase in demand, and facing these inflationary prices as well, how worried are you and your organization about them being able to meet that demand and what can we do to help? >> well, i think we need to take into the -- act is march 20. it hasn't gotten easier. we move post pandemic, but the food banks are still at the frontline providers. it's important to know that for every meal a food bank provides, snap provides nine. so, i say that not to say they are super heroes. they are amazing, but they cannot deal with making up is being lost by snap. the other states looking at

legislation to overcome this. another thing that is more influential, right, food banks have to pick up the food somewhere. they have to stop their shelves. they have to be, there have to be volunteers, or paid workers to open the doors, to talk to people. so it's, more than just food. food banks have to deal with and thinking about how they're going to meet those needs. i would suggest definitely talk to your local food pantry about what is more useful? sometimes, it's not just about food. sometimes, it's about making sure people have aid, individuals that can help with the increase in demand of assisted a. gina plata-nino, thank you so much. s.n.a.p. deputy director at the food research and action center. thank you. florida governor ron desantis has his sights on the white house, and his published a new memoir. thankfully, nbc's alan batali reddit, so you don't have to. every cringey thing you need to know about what's in it, coming up next. up next. and weak enamel.

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difficulties with this earlier, so we want to go back to the story on eli lilly drastically reducing the out of pocket cost for insulin. nbc's kristen dahlgren has more. >> it's being hailed as a huge win for diabetics. drugmaker eli lilly announcing it's cutting the list price of its most commonly prescribed insulin by 70%, capping out of

pocket costs at $35 a month. >> it's such a relief. it's a huge significant step in making this deceased manageable. >> and murray gibson's sons both use eli lilly insulin for their diabetes. they spoke to nbc news in december as costs in america soared for the lifesaving drug. >> i am so angry. it's exhausting. >> in january, the inflation reduction act, proposed monthly cap on insulin costs for seniors on medicare. but millions of younger diabetics we're still paying much higher rates. the move comes after years of political and patient pressure. >> i think we all have heard enough about insulin affordability here in america. we should be able to solve this problem ourselves. >> eli lilies cap automatically applies to people with private insurance. those without coverage will be eligible, as long as they sign up for a savings card through the company. but only about 30% of the nation's 8.4 million diabetics who rely on insulin get it from

eli lilly. >> do you expect to see the other drug makers follow suit? >> i certainly hope that they do. i think in general, all of the influence the drug manufacturers make should be affordable and accessible. >> today, insulin maker sanofi and novo nordisk pointed to their own savings plans for participants. for mom and lori gibson, today is a good day, could start to saving lives. >> rationing insulin gets scary. some have died. >> knowing her sons now face a future where a vital prescription won't carry such a hefty price. kristen dahlgren, nbc news. n dahlgren >> ron desantis has not yet announced his candidacy, but is looking more like, more and more like the florida governor it's going to run for president in 2024. according to a source from its plans -- desantis is scheduled to make his debut in iowa later this month. yes expected to make stops in des moines and davenport, but

this potential white house aspirations are not sitting well with a certain former president with aspirations of his own. according to axios, donald trump used to see if this is the only candidate who could go deep into the primaries with him. he plans to apple protects against the florida governor in the coming weeks. meanwhile, desantis has released a memo are this week, which is filled with, guess what? mentions of donald trump! it's already a top seller on amazon. nbc news capital hill correspondent, alan vitale, has more. >> ron desantis inching closer to a presidential bid. >> god bless you all! >> making stops across the country, huddling with donors last week in paul weekend launching a new book, outlining a blueprint for america's revival. >> people would say, how did you do it in florida? >> the book marks a key step into finding desantis outside the sunshine state, touting its controversial covid response, proximity to former president donald trump, and culture clashes, including with disney,

officially stripping them of their special status in the state yesterday. >> disney ran the show in the state for a long time, until i became governor. we said, you know, we're going to side with the people of florida. >> just because he's not in the race yet the summit of the republicans aren't anticipating the primary battle ahead. >> i like what he's done. i'm a trump supporter. he'll have to prove to me he would be a better precedent than president trump. if elected. >> a new poll so desantis trails trump in the theoretical matchup, but since the seized front early two man race. desantis's book is a fresh sense of how he could take on his main rival, which is to say, not directly, if at all. the book benches trump more than 100 times and 288 pages and showcases desantis as a steadfast ally, both in congress and the florida governor. at one point, calling trump the most famous person to run for the gop nomination since dwight eisenhower, saying in 2016, trump had almost instantly built a massive following, and was now the man to beat in the primaries.

he also parented trumps testing for the media, calling investigations into alleged russian collusion a media-driven hoax to scientists cast out on the result of the 2016 presidential election and strangled the trump presidency in the crib. it comes as others who once stuck by trump are drawing their own in direct contrast with him, like former south carolina governor, nikki haley. >> i think we need to have a new generation. i think we have to leave the status quo. i think we have to leave the old issues behind. >> trump's former vp, mike pence. >> implicit saying you are considering running is the idea you think you could be at least a different president, if not a better president, then your former boss. could you delineate just one policy difference you might have with him? >> i think the times call for different leadership. i'm confident will have better choices. >> and your thinking about -- >> my old running mate. come 2024, -- >> many thanks to nbc's alan batali for that report. coming up in the next hour of

velshi, instability, extremism, and political violence. what happens when the rhetoric becomes real? i, ali is back. he recently sat down with msnbc's own benny hassan to discuss -- a new book, when every argument, about the art of persuasion, debate, and public speaking. it was a lively conversation. you won't want to miss it. luckily, it's coming up. he world's #1 selling nerve care company. nervive contains alpha lipoic acid to relieve occasional nerve aches, weakness and discomfort. try nervivenerve relief. ♪ i like to move it, move it ♪ ♪ you like to... move it ♪ we're reinventing our network. ♪ ♪ ♪ fast. reliable.

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this show, and thus, aspiring with mr. history as it unfolds. subsequently holding, power to account,. when you work in this field, the set of skills isn't really optional to learn. it's what we do and it takes hard work to get good at it. someone who is really good at that latter part, about holding powder to account, is my own colleague, mehdi hasan. if you find yourself on the wrong end of a debate with matty? good luck. many literally wrote the book on winning arguments, so i'm

gonna talk about that in just a moment, but, first let's take a look at that master himself at work. i want to play for you an interview that many did with erik prince, the founder and former ceo of the private military firm, blackwater. back in 2019. watch this and you'll see what i mean. >> you are a big supporter of donald trump. you've been questioned by special counsel robert mueller in the russia investigation. you look at your laptop and friends, i believe. you've also testified the congress. november 2017, you told congress under oath you play quote, no official or really, unofficial role in the trump campaign. what you didn't tell congress is on august 3rd, 2016, you were in a meeting during the campaign at trump tower with don jr., trump's son, with stephen miller, then a campaign adviser to trump, with georgia later, a former blackwater colleague of your, to access affection to the saudis and emiratis, who also happens to be a convicted pedophile, and also joel -- and it's really expert on social media manipulation. how come you didn't mention that meeting to congress, given

its relevant to their investigation? >> i did. as part of the investigations, i certainly disclosed in the meetings that very -- >> not immigration will testimony to the house. we went through. what you didn't mention anything about august 2016 meeting in trump tower. they specifically asked you what context you had, and you didn't answer. >> i don't believe i was asked that question. >> you were asked whether any -- form of communications or contact with the campaign. he said about writing papers, putting up the old signs, no. that's what you said. i've got the transcript of the conversation here. >> you're. i might have been, i think i was at trump headquarters for the hurricane headquarters -- >> august 3rd, 2016. you, and israeli do, that channel to the emiratis and saudis, donald junior. david miller. >> we were there to talk about iran policy. >> there to talk about iran policy? don't you have to disclose to the house intelligence committee go under oath? >> i didn't. >> you didn't. we just went through the testimony, there's no mention of the trump tower meeting on august 2016. >> i don't know if they got the transcript wrong.

[laughter] >> we got the transcript wrong! >> i remember certainly -- >> this is a problem for you, because we know robert mueller hasn't unable to establish collusion here, but he has got a lot of guys lying to the authorities and not telling the whole truth. it set a problem now? even if you accidentally didn't tell them, that could come back and haunt you? >> i fully cooperate. i haven't heard anybody. i haven't heard from anybody in more than nine months. >> members of congress, after they discovered this meeting, have to talk about certain where this is not telling the truth. you believe he told congress about this meeting, even though it's not in the transcript, just to be clear. >> i believe so, yeah. >> that exchange is the very definition of holding power to account. in, many not only exposed gaps and an official story the american people have been told, he did it with such style and relentlessness that it moved and national conversation and landed on a covid lockdown era list of top debates to watch while you are stuck at home. joining me now is manny hassan,

the host of the mehdi hassan show on msnbc and peacock, who literally, as i said, has written the book on how to dominate in an argument. it's titled when every argument, the art of debating, persuading, and public speaking. which is available for purchase now. many, i was going to have some fun with you and start an argument with you to demonstrate your skill, but after having watched that, i'm just not going to. so, talk to me. >> thank you, ali. of all people, you could do it. >> no, actually, i can't. thank you for saying that. this book sums up the most important parts of our job. usually, our job. holding power to account. the skills you have developed and mastered and right in the back here, and your belief, are not optional for journalists. we have to learn how to do this. but talk to me about this not backing down, this is how you deal with it when things get uncomfortable, because in some of these interviews you feature in the book, things get uncomfortable. >> yes, there have been some very uncomfortable moments. i talk about in the book, about having interviewed vitali klitschko, and mayor of kyiv, who is now very briefly leading

his city against a russian assault and innovation, but a few years ago, i remember interviewing and he got very angry after the interview. this heavyweight boxing champion, is he going to punch me? i remember taking that after the interview. the remote time brashly in your face style can sometimes upset interviews but i know you agree with this, need to hold people to account, and that just means not just throwing softballs, not just throwing a curveball or question, it means having a plan for an interview, for a debate, for an argument, thinking through what it is we want to get from a conversation, from an interview, from a public exchange. where you want to go, and i think the problem we have with far too many interviews on tv right now is, to be fair to people -- let's just be fair first, we are in a time poor environment. we are stuck with i've got to get this politician in five minutes, got to get as much out of them as possible. what should i ask him or her in this interview? on the other hand, to solve the case for even if we have more time, where is the follow-up

question? where are the receipts? you saw that exchange with erik prince you kindly play that length, my team at the time, we got a congressional transcript. we went through every page of. it's, oh, well i wasn't f that question. you were! here's page whatever this. i've got the transcript in my hands. the importance of having receipts. the importance of having a follow-up question. the importance having done your homework. it's so. key to many politicians in the current era, especially, as you know, the trumpian variety, that got lighters-in-chief. the people who want to live in an alternate reality, they are able to get away with it if they are not put under pressure. if they don't have their feet held to the fire on tv. so, it's rare that you can do people with people like you and i, when they have a handful of republican congressman come on my show, republican voices, and in those moments, you can't afford to waste time. without that holding to account, what is left for our democracy? >> let me ask you about what you just said, about these candidate to run for office. we saw a remarkable display of

disinformation and lies during the 2022 mid term season from maga candidates. some of them, like herschel walker and marjorie taylor greene, brought their lies to a debate stage. on the other hand, you had candidates like the arizona democrat, can he, hobbs who would not debate her opponent, keri, like saying to do so would be to give her a platform for her life. what is the right answer to these things? lawyers always be debated? >> that is a great question. that is the 64,000 dollar question and i would say the short answer is no. they shouldn't always be debated. i will refuse to have a climate denier or a holocaust and i are on my show. it's pointless. it doesn't go anywhere. this book is about how to win good faith disagreements. good faith arguments. good face debates. we live in an argument of bad faith arguments. people drifting. people are pushing propaganda. people who are serial fabricators. people have made up their entire resume, eeg george santos sitting in congress. there certainly was not arguing with that, pharaoh sequel to this book, i would at a chapter on went to walk away from an

argument. personally, i have a principle of neosho on msnbc, but i want election deniers on the show. that's enforceable show. that doesn't apply across the network. -- did an excellent interview the other day with matt gates, an election denier. each to their own is what i say in terms of the way you draw the line, when you will and will argue with. but i will say. this if you are stuck in an argument with a trump star candidate, there's a chapter in the book called beware the gift caliper. in debate circles, there's a phrase called gash galloping. it comes from evolution deniers who came up with this ruse. the strategy in public debates does us talk endlessly. they talk endlessly all the time and in the book, i talk a great deal about how to stop a person like that's. there are strategies that could work, even with a trump star interviewee. >> many, it's an excellent book. you are an excellent colleague. your star second ever together. we were together, and i continue to learn from you, my friend. thanks for writing this, so you can actually share the wisdom you bring to tv. mehdi hasan is the host of the

mehdi hasan show right here on msnbc. he's author of a remarkably important book, how to win every -- win every argument. the art of debating, persuading, and public speaking. >> another hour of velshi is on the way. coming up, the latest from cpac, or a certain twice impeached ex president is set to take the stage later today. i'll be joined by olivia troye, a former senior aide to mike pence and the washington post jennifer reuben to talk about trump and the splintering gop, and why so many republicans who want to replace donald trump are still afraid of saying a word against him. another hour of velshi starts after a quick break. a quick break. you can make it even smarter. now ports can know where every piece of cargo is. and where it's going. (dock worker) right on time. (vo) robots can predict breakdowns and order their own replacement parts. (foreman) nice work. (vo) and retailers can get ahead of the fashion trend of the day with a new line tomorrow. with a verizon private 5g network, you can get more agility and security. giving you more control of your business.

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it's saturday, march 4th. it's 11 a.m. in the east, may they get in the west. i'm michael steele, filling in today for my friend, ali velshi. tonight, former president donald trump will take the stage to give the keynote speech to close out the final day of cpac, an annual gathering of conservatives from around the country. it usually draws a broad range of republicans making it obvious top four presidential hopefuls every few years. nikki haley, for example, who announced her bid last month, spoke of the converse yesterday. so did mike pompeo. they were really the only notable presidential hopefuls who showed up around this time. so, cpac is usually dominated