>> it was very intense. >> i remember thinking, thank you god, a sense of relief, in one fell swoop. >> those long years of work for prosecutors, detectives, had paid off. jurors told us that in the end, it all came down to the blood evidence on hannah's clothes. >> well, the dna outweighed a lot of unknowns for us. >> it said that denny ross was their. >> as a result of the hannah hill, case, lieutenant hughes says the akron police department made many changes throughout the years, especially in the communications department, to make sure mistakes like the failure to locate hannah's car never happened again. >> 13 years on, can akron residents be sure that the screw up has been rectified? >> i believe so. there's been a lot of changes. >> denny ross was sentenced to 19 years to life in prison for hanna's death. he will not serve that time for years to come, but the jurors did not know is that he is already serving a 25 year sentence for the rape and attempted murder of this woman between the two trials. he will be 67 years old before he is eligible for parole. >> we are disappointed, we had hoped for different results. >> his lawyers filed a request for a new trial, which was denied. after the trial, reporter ed myers says he was still suspicious about how the bag of evidence appeared beneath his window? >> skeptic scans to wonder, they can absolutely still wonder. >> despite the favorite venues defense had always said that brad killed hannah, o'born was never regarded as a serious suspect by the authorities, or hanna's friends and family. brad said he loved hannah, and had been living under a cloud of suspicion, had taken its toll. >> do you feel like this clears your name? >> the only thing i'm guilty of is being a bad boyfriend. and i can't change that. i wish that i could, if i had three wishes, all three of them would be to change that, and i can't. >> on a rainy sunday, after the verdict, hannah's friends and family gathered for a balloon relethey passed around sharpiesd relethey passed around sharpiesd er brot>> i am just glad it is r with. >> [inaudible]>> the best frien. >> fly high, my bright star, from t>> and then, after a brief

♪♪ this sunday, crime and punishment. president biden backs down from fighting a republican effort to block dc's more lenient approach to crime. >> we will make chicago the safest city in america. >> just after the perception of rising crime took down chicago's mayor. >> we fought the right fights. >> can biden's moves help democrats from being seen as soft on crime going into 2024? plus, divide and conquer. florida governor ron desantis isn't officially in the race yet, but he's eagerly courting trump's base. >> i think there is a strong anti-woke majority across the country. >> the primary fight is kicked into high gear as more candidates consider challenging trump. >> for those who have been wronged and betrayed, i am your retribution. >> i will talk to chris sununu who is considering his own white house run. and confronting china. a bipartisan push to face the growing threats from beijing. >> this is an existential struggle over what life will look like in the 21st century. >> tensions continue to escalate as the u.s. warns about supplying arms to russia and new

concerns over covid's origins. >> the origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident in wuhan. >> i'll talk to republican mike turner of ohio and democrat jim himes of connecticut. joining me for insight and analysis are nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson. former homeland security secretary jeh johnson and usa today washington bureau chief susan page, and former republican governor of north carolina pat mccrory. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press with chuck todd." good sunday morning. this may be the week where we saw the 2024 presidential campaign kick into full gear and not just on the republican side. president biden's decision to block a dc crime law caught many

democrats off guard because it will be the first time in 30 years that congress has nullified a law in dc and as a democratic president and the democratic senate, but if you do it through the lens of political calculation it may make perfect sense that neither he nor his party with a lot of red areas could defend can afford to look soft on crime heading into 2024. republicans tried to make crime a central issue in the 2022 midterms, and they've certainly had success in new york state and other areas. the results this week in the chicago mayor's race where voters fired the incumbent are a reminder that crime and police are still important to urban voters and a huge part of the democratic coalition. democrats have been twisted in knots on the crime issue because it's a problem with swing voters, and president trump is -- president biden is trying to provide them with a way forward, and it's being twisted, and the abortion issue, but no one in the gop at least to date has

taken to lead to try and come up with a modified solution to that political problem for them. if anything, the republicans are more fractured and not just on the abortion issue and the general direction of the party and it's a divide that's been on full display this weekend and there is one issue and there is little divide these days and it is on china with the rising security threat. secretary of state antony blinken will send lethal aid to russia. >> russia can't have it both ways. it can't put itself out as a force for peace in public while it one way or another continues to fuel the flames of the fire that vladimir putin started. >> we want to dig deeper into this. joining mu know, the chair and ranking member of the intelligence committee and republican mike turner of ohio and democrat jim himes of connecticut. gentlemen, welcome back to "meet the press" and thank you for coming on together. >> this train derailment overnight happened in your congressional district. i know the shelter in place

order. what more can you tell us? what more have you learned and is the federal government responding? >> this truly is outrageous. ohio is the crossroads of america both on the roads and on the rail, an unbelievable amount of goods travel through ohio is hazardous. what we've seen the risk to communities is unacceptable. we may have missed a bullet to this one, and it was empty and it will not be a threat to the community. we'll have to see. >> is it clear -- do you think the freight industry isn't well regulated and needs to be? >> absolutely. the fact that we're having derailment after derailment shows the lack of investment in our infrastructure and that has to change. >> let me move to this, congressman himes, i know both of you have been getting these briefings. another warning to china. you heard it about the secretary of state of arming russia and this was confirmed. how serious is this threat and do we know if china has made a final decision? >> no question it's a serious

threat. we've seen the russian military obviously come apart, and the chinese can reverse that in the same way the iranians are helping the russians right now. it doesn't surprise me at all about whether they should do this, and hopefully wisdom prevails. i couldn't help but notice in the chinese proposed peace plan that we need to focus rebuilding china -- or rebuilding russia. if they're part of the russian assault on ukraine, they will not get that business, so, no, i don't think a final decision has been made, but i do think it's wise for us to say don't go there. >> congressman turner, you've noted that we have a different posture now on our intelligence and we're releasing more of it. do you think more should be released so the world believes it? >> you're seen this with the cia director calling out to china that they're considering it as a huge shift in policy, and what we're seeing is the

administration using intelligence to try to impact the outcome of policy, right? so they're not just saying we happen to know this, they're trying to thwart them from doing this. and the problem with china entering this, you've got the west giving weapons to ukraine. you've got russia depleting their stores. and the west together have the ability to impact greater than russia alone does. it would be an inexhaustible source if china and its production draft supported russia. >> what kind of intel do we have on the state of the russian army, congressman himes? we've seen reports they may be running out of munitions. what do those folks say? >> neither mike nor i can get deep into any intel, considering the fact that you see every single day on television which is the entire russian army cannot take a town that nobody had ever heard of a year ago, the town of bakhmut.

we literally devoted hundreds of millions of dollars to this apparatus, to this russian military, and today we see that they can't, even with the push of the president vladimir putin they can't take the town. that doesn't mean they're not still dangerous and they have nuclear weapons, but they're not what we thought they were. >> sergey lavrov, congressman turner, wait until you hear the reaction to something he said here. let me play it. >> the war, which we are trying to stop which was launched against us using the ukraine -- the ukrainian people, of course -- influenced -- influenced the policy of russia. >> there's nothing like being able to say the phrase "the world is laughing." >> the world is laughing. >> spontaneously. what should the west use a moment like that for?

>> putin, lavrov, and medvedev, even though he's the new face of the new russia come from an era where they control eastern europe and they can say things that are not true and people until them because they control information and information can't be controlled because the laughability of what they're saying and the ridiculousness of what they're saying is easily exposed. >> and let me move through the issue of classified documents. nobody seems to be satisfied with what you've got. congressman himes, let me start with you. were you satisfied with the briefing? >> look, we have a lot more work to do. the leaders of the intelligence committee and our number one job is to make sure that the dni and the fbi whoever does it does everything they need to do to protect the sources and methods that might have been exposed were any of those documents to have been out in the wild, so there's a lengthy process, and i can't speak for mike, but i can tell you, though we've been briefed, we have a lot more do that the government is doing what it should be doing.

>> do you know what the trump back tauc is and what the biden backtalk and the pens backtalk? >> no. >> they didn't share with you those things in a classified setting? >> right. >> why? >> well, first off, if -- in the things that we do know, one of the things we do know is the fbi is not being forthcoming. they're not giving us the information. they're claiming it's going to affect the outcome of the investigation which of course, it can't because the people that are the targets of the investigation and we have the clearance and ability to look at those documents. we also know from admiral haynes that she was not consulted about the raid on trump's mar-a-lago home, that, in fact, it was not on a national security basis. as they go through the process and we see the category of the documents and who had access to them and who had not had access to them, we're beginning to build an understanding.

administration after administration is apparently sloppy and messy in their use of classified documents and that's something we have to address well beyond just this, and this has to change where classified documents are under control. >> congressman himes, do you know at least know the classification levels of these docs? is there a distinction between the trump docs, the biden docs and the pens pinc docs or not? >> we have not been able to see anything that draw that conclusion and we have to be careful -- >> so you weren't briefed much. >> we were briefed, but neither one of us are satisfied that we got enough information to execute the primary information, and we have more to learn before we're satisfied on that. >> right now you have no idea whether these were the highest level -- >> we didn't say no idea. >> okay. >> again, we can't get into the details. we got a flavor for what was there, and i won't speak for mike, but i can tell you having been given a flavor, this was a

very serious issue. this wasn't stuff that didn't matter. clearly it matters. >> in all three cases? >> we don't know yet. >> one thing that i can tell you the symbolism that jim and i are here together. >> i don't know if nunes would have done this with adam schiff. >> you see it on the senate side with marco rubio and senator warner and the approach of this issue are the biden docs and the trump docs and the pence docs we're looking at holistically, what do we have to do to fix this, how do we address this, what were the risks involved. and you have to understand without congress having asked, there wasn't even a risk assessment being done. we initiated it. >> i get the sense that the intel committee doesn't trust congress. is that fair? do you think you have to prove to them that you're trustworthy with secrets? >> i think it's more of a tension between the fbi than the intelligence community. >> absolutely. that will come to a head over the next couple of years and you're seeing it in a number of areas where they are not special

and they don't have greater privileges than president does and they're continuing to act as if they have some privilege to operate without congressional oversight. >> congressman himes, i'm curious about that piece of that tension between the main justice and the fbi having to do with retrieving the classified documents from mar-a-lago. it looks like there was fear going in retribution. the fbi, are they more concerned about perception than whether they're doing their job. are you worried about this? >> two things about the fbi. mike's right, they are subject to congressional oversight and secondly, they do have to preserve the integrity of the investigation, and there are investigations onboard right now, and we need to work with them because both of them, they want us to do investigations in

an unslopy manner, and, of course, was there consternation, look, it's one thing to conduct a raid on average joe citizen to conduct a raid on a former president who, and i hope i don't insult my good chairman here who is known for his aggressive retribution against people he didn't like, i'm sure that got a lot of discussion. the lesson is if you don't want a raid on your home don't take a year to cough up documents that we know are out there. >> the covid origin. >> or six years. >> fair enough. fair enough. >> the one aspect that's important here is merrick garland did an unbelievable, terrible political miscalculation. he appointed an independent council against trump and didn't realize he was going to have to play out against his own boss. >> let's talk about the covid situation. i think a lot of people were surprised to learn there was an intelligence agency in fairness, and some of us know it's true. they deal with our nukes and there's a reason for it and a

lot of people didn't know. they labelled it low confidence. so how should the public take that? >> it's not actually been released yet. these are leaks reporting it. >> great. all of the more helpful to messing up this story. >> we won't confirm or deny that they said that, but let's assume that they did. in all of this, because there's no direct evidence -- we don't have china admitting it, we don't have wuhan lab handing these things over, all of this is being assessed by looking at other aspects being released. i can tell you one thing that's of grave concern is that the 90-day review that was undertaken when it was a classified report that came out in the intelligence community, in my opinion they don't match if you read the classified version, you would have thought there would have been other things and other conclusions in the version and that's what we're seeing now is that they're beginning to leak out. people are saying i disagree with the underlying conclusion of the unclassified version.

>> congressman himes, we're told that this is still a minority view and the fbi director used the leak. he wanted to go out there and reaffirm something that the fbi was leaning more toward the leak. >> you need to take a step back here and as mike said, we have so few facts because the chinese regime has obfuscated and this is hard to figure out if we can do it in atlanta. we have so few facts that different agencies will need to arrive to different conclusions and when an agency slightly adjusts the interpretation as the department of energy may have done, that doesn't mean the government doesn't have a firm view. it may be forever before we actually know what happened. >> don't we need a 9/11 commission on something like this? >> we know they need to cooperate. >> don't we need to cooperate? >> he has selected a committee that is beginning the process. there is now a china select committee and looking at the national security threats of china. so those things are moving forward in congress beyond what our committees are doing and other committees and

jurisdiction. there are now committees solely focused on justice issues. congressman turner, congressman himes, i look forward to doing it with you. when we come back, is it still donald trump's republican party? it sure looks like. how do you navigate those waters. i'll ask chris sununu of new hampshire who is considering his own run next. and secure for any close encounter. if your mouth could talk it would ask for polident and poligrip.

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on the ship there's some wire cutters, some tubing and rubber bands. now with our know-how and some elbow grease and a little bit of luck, i — you're probably going to want to start running. the next generation 10g network, only from xfinity. one giant leap for mankind. welcome back. republican presidential candidates were off and running this week, leading the party faithful, former president trump and former governor nikki haley were among the top hopefuls attending the conservative political action conference known as cpac while ron desantis promoted his book in stockton, california, and kansas after meeting with the club for growth. it was also attended by our next guest. trump, desantis, and haley will

all make their way to iowa, and it was clear that president trump's, the battle for the heart of the base has already begun? they cannot scare me. they cannot shake me and they will never, ever control me and they will never, ever, therefore control you. at the end of the day, anyone else will be intimidated, bought off, blackmailed, or ripped to shreds. i alone will never retreat. >> joining us now, a man who may be going up against the former president for the gop presidential nomination, new hampshire governor chris sununu. welcome back to "meet the press." >> thanks so much. >> you spoke at a donor conference this weekend and it was about national politics, potentially running for president. are you closer to a decision, and what is holding you back if you're not? >> yes. i'm not focused on the discussion right now and there will be plenty of time for that and right now my mission is to make this party bigger, and you

can't win until i focus how do we win no matter who the candidate is, when we have to attract independents and we have to bring in the next generation of voter more on the team. there's a lot of gap where we are as republicans and the 27-and-under generation of potential republicans. so i'm trying to steer the message in the right way. i'm trying to get folks a little more optimistic, inspirational and hopeful that the republicans have. sometimes we're not so great on the messaging. >> it's interesting that you're at club for growth talking about making this your message. the club for growth last year supported a lot of candidates that donald trump supported, and they've broken from him on the presidential, and they spent a lot of times not supporting candidates that you just described and not supporting candidates that arguably would have tried to grow the party or appeal to the middle. have you heard regret at this conference about how club for growth worked in 2022? >> look, it's not about regret

and the entire republican party and hopefully they saw we didn't win the races we should have won and understand the messaging of getting out there early and not letting democrats define you early. not just about money. it's about having that collective message that has to go forward about being more optimistic, about being something that folks want to join, not just with their dollars but with their vote hopefully in november and, like i said, not let those democrats apply. it's a fundamental chance in approach that the entire republican party is very open to and looking forward to as we hit the november election. >> i understand what you're trying to do and at the same time you heard the former president at cpac and he has a stranglehold on 35% of the party and we can have a debate about the specific number and you know what those folks want. they want to make liberals cry. right? that's the message they want. they want that more than they want a big tent. how do you appeal to shows voters? >> you focus on leadership that

is results-driven, that gets stuff done. you know, in 2017 and 2018 as a republican, i was told i would get immigration reform and was told of balancing the budget and taking care of our debt and not spending more than we actually have and working toward free trade that our economic engine and a lot of that did not happen because some things did happen and i give the president credit where it was deserved on regulatory form and the speed of the vaccine and things like that. a lot of things didn't happen. if there's that part of the party that as you said, make liberals cry or whatever it might be and you do it by winning and getting stuff done and passing it through congress and taking the first steps of securing the border and immigration and you do it by getting stuff done not just through winning a nomination. you have to close the deal and you've got to get it done in '25. we're looking for the most conservative candidate that can win in 2024 and can work with congress to kind of finish the deal, finish the obligation and

the accountability by 2025. >> you may be running to lead a party that did this yesterday and the texas republican party censured a republican member of congress, tony gonzalez who won a swing district in an area that's not always easy for republicans to win and his two sins were supporting a gun reform bill following the shooting at uvalde, and for voting to codify same-sex marriage protection, and i looked at what he was censured for, and i thought boy, they haven't met governor sununu yet in texas. >> well, there are aspects of the republican party, whether it's the texas republican party, the new hampshire republican party, and all of the groups out there have their own vision, and they have their own leadership, and they have their own agendas, and we have to be what we are about and how we're going to deliver and the accountability and standing up and making sure

that we not just win the election but show up and win the jobbing and that's what galvanizes support around you. republicans cannot win without independents. it cannot happen. if we stay in the ultra conservative lane which is a part of the party, and i get it, that's where the headlines are going to be, but at the end of the day if i can get stuff done and mayors do a good job of that and not so much on either side of the aisle and governors and mayors have an amazing ability every day that make decisions to impact people's lives. >> and the rnc chair, ronna mcdaniel, wants to have nominees sign a pledge if you are the to participate in an rnc-sanctioned event. are you comfortable signing that pledge if donald trump is involved? >> yeah, look, i'm a lifelong republican, and i'm going to support the republican nominee. when you look at what's coming out of the white house, it isn't democrat policy.

it is extreme left-wing agenda-type stuff that's not in the best interest of this country, and i think any solid republican would be better than anything that comes out. former president trump is not going to be the nominee. that's just not going to happen and it's not what we were and yesterday's leadership or yesterday's story or crying about what happened in november of 2022 but what we're going to bring to the table tomorrow. that's what america is looking for. i am confident that whoever comes out of the nomination process will lead this country and will deliver a win in '24 and i'll back him. >> new hampshire republicans have a habit of actually always going for the outsider, whatever that moment is, in that moment, whoever the outsider candidate is, and it's been remarkable to me, and it looks like donald trump is trying to be the outsider. he was -- he ran the party. he was the institutional head of the party. he's running as an outsider, and i know you want to be the outsider, but in many ways he's

already lumped everybody against him. do you think he's effectively carving out an outsider lane for himself? >> i think the former president has his own lane. he doesn't need to carve anything. he's an absolute known commodity to every american in the country. there are very few people that are on the fence whether they're with him or not with him, whatever it may be. i think he has his lane, and then there's everyone else who is a vast majority of the party and who is looking at an alternative. if the election were held today, ron desantis would win in new hampshire, no doubt in my mind and ron desantis would win in florida. i think the former president is trying to find a path to be the leading voice of the party and those of us that potentially want to get if the race may have an opinion about the direction of that conversation. again, thank you for your service, we're moving on, i just

don't believe the republican party will say that the best leadership for america tomorrow is yesterday's leadership. that doesn't make any sense and that's not in our dna as americans and it's not in the antithesis to settle for yesterday's news and we want the next generation and the next big idea and that's what we'll deliver. >> the abortion issue is twisted and the republican party and a lot of people dismiss your candidacy by simply saying the republican party will never nominate someone who identifies as pro-choice or who's identified as pro-choice. how do you change that sentiment in the party? >> the whole dynamic around that issue has changed, right? so most governors are taking it upon themselves that if they're pro-life, they're moving to ban it. that's between them and their voters. there are some governors who are looking at the pro-abortion stuff up until the day of birth, and that's terrible. some states have 20 weeks and

some 16 weeks, and that's where we all are. the majority provide some choice and some fashion and if you're pro-life, they'll ban it and if you're pro-abortion we're in the middle here and the conversation has changed so much and not that it's not an important issue, but folks will have to define themselves as to where they are. i don't -- i don't worry about it too much because we have a 24-week rule in new hampshire and it's pretty much where most of america is. >> you said something interesting in one of your previous interviews that if you can get in it can dilute the field and it helps trump. you said it's not about getting in. it's about knowing when to get out. so what does that mean? >> yeah. that means, look, one thing i've learned -- i've won four times. i've been in this political game for a while. i've learned that you can't tell people not to run. if someone wants to run, they'll run, and that's fine, but unlike 2016, i'll make sure and other folks will make sure that we all

have the discipline to get out before it's too late and those that don't, i think will be chastised very publicly for doing so, but i have to be honest. i've talked to the candidates and they all understand that. they really do. we're ghoing going to take our time. there's a lot to do over the next nine months to make sure they have a candidate that will win a true majority of the vote, and i have full confidence that we'll get there. >> by the way, have you ruled out running for governor again? >> i don't rule anything out. i really don't. i just passed -- i didn't pass it yet, i submitted my balanced budget with a big surplus and all of that stuff to the legislature and i have to go through my legislative session. i love being governor. i love it. it is a job unlike any other so we'll see what happens in the future. >> what do you think rupert murdoch and fox news need to do to regain some trust after what we learned about this and are you at all concerned that you can have an honest conversation with fox viewers? >> oh, i don't think it's just fox. i'll put them in there, but all of media. all of television media and

everyone has to own a little bit of the lack of trust and the lack of accountability. it's okay to get something wrong in the news, but you have to come back and own it, and whether it's fox, cn, or msnbc or whatever, everyone just has to own it. as a governor i might try four or five things and if it doesn't work, and pick up the funding. >> intentionally lying to viewers though, that to me, seemed to cross the line. you can make a mistake, but that wasn't a mistake. >> so explain to me -- look, i'm not defending anybody. i think you're all in the same basket, i really do. i can go to cnn when they'll ignore the hunter biden laptop story. we can talk about the virus truly coming out of the lab in wuhan and we can talk about a lot of different things. if you're not owning that you misrepresented the story, whether it's intentional or not, everybody does it and that's the problem. america is losing faith in media and you guys have a huge opportunity to regain that, but

right now my message to fox news is build your ratings because if we don't go bigger as a republican party, we can't win in november. so i want them to talk to independents. it's not changing our value or who we are as republicans, but get more opportunistic about the chance to bring more people in. >> governor, i can promise you this, at nbc news, if you make a mistake like that, you would lose your job. i know that here for what it's worth. >> not you, i'm not worried about you. >> i appreciate you saying that. thanks for joining us. president biden gave a lifeline to others by trying to look tougher on the crime issue. was it the right move? the panel weighs in next. ove? the panel weighs in next trustede

welcome back. panelists here, nbc news senior washington correspondent, hallie jackson. former homeland security secretary jeh johnson and bureau

chief of "usa today," susan page. welcome to all of you. hallie, i want to with what i think are the presidential races gearing up on the republican side. president biden, what he did on a triangulation of crime, we may be nullifying the first law in dc, i want to play what muriel bowser's reaction was. we played it on friday. i'll talk with you on the other side. >> the president had issued a pretty direct statement about dc autonomy, and we wholeheartedly agree. president biden has been a vocal supporter of dc home rule and of the state for washington, and vetoed the bill and unfortunately we live with the indignity of limited home rule in the district of columbia. >> all right. i'm going to try to get through this fast. dc did rewrite a criminal code. mayor bowser, 12 to 1 and

then congress has the ability -- the house side does, and they're essentially vetoing the overrule of the veto and nullifying the law or at least they will. what's interesting is progressives have been muted in their criticism and it looks like he made the right call and they're backing off and muir y'all bowser is agreeing. >> i will tell you there's a real sense of anger in the democratic congress in the words of someone was supremely pissed as a surprisingly confident move, and i'm quoting here by the white to triangulate this way and i've spoken to current white house officials who say this will blow over on the politics piece of it, but i've heard questions raised about the credibility that will move forward. look at the nrcc, the republican campaign arm putting out this statement saying the ad scripts write themselves for these dozens of democrats who took a tough vote an issue that has been tough for democrats.

i think there is an acknowledgement from democrats and they're not where they want to be on crime. i've been encouraged by democratic sources in places like pennsylvania where democrats did well, and where crime was an issue, and that is a place like wisconsin where that wasn't the case. >> or new york. >> there were 31 democrats who did vote with the republicans issue in the house, and 20 by 31 won by 54 less on this. the anger coming from house democrats or folks who thought, wait a minute, you were going to provide cover? you provided cover for bob casey jr. i wish you would have told me. i might have voted differently. first, i can't believe that the chair and ranking of the house intel committee have not seen the classified -- okay. >> okay. >> this is not that hard. i used to be in the middle of those fights. you just simply say to the fbi look, go to the nearest classified copy machine and bring it to the pouch, and i'll give it right back to you.

how else is the legislative branch supposed to conduct meaningful oversight on the damage assessment? okay. so democrats and crime. i've written op eds on this. i think joe biden and muriel bowser are absolutely right. democrats lose elections, particularly presidents and mayors, who are perceived as soft on crime in blue communities, and it bears emphasis that in big cities, crime is the uppermost issue. just ask people on mlk avenue, across the river in anacostia, michigan avenue in south chicago. crime is an intensely personal issue, and they want to see their leaders address it. this is how we got rudy giuliani in 1993 in new york city. >> speaking of republican mayors in blue communities, you are

one. >> absolutely in '93 and '95, 2000, giuliani daily, mccrory, mike turner, daytons. we had mayors and democrats that were tough on crime because gangs were taking over the city and the homelessness were taking over the city and we have taken action and we had large drops especially in the murder rate and the gang activity, and it was coordinated with the federal government enforcing federal gun laws and for whatever reason the left took over the cities and the democratic party nationally and the crime rate went up because we started letting career criminals back on the street. >> it's not -- >> and they are paying for it right now, and they deserve to pay for it. >> it's not like democrats don't have an argument. democrats, respectfully, governor, democrats are the ones that want to get guns off the streets. >> susan, what's fascinating here is how these mayors, these democratic mayors are being pressured -- they're being pressured on both sides because the city councils are way to the left of the mayors. we see it here in dc.

the veto override of muriel bowser was 12 to 1, and it wasn't like they haven't made a lot of strides, and it's put mayors in the crosshairs. >> in fairness, you're talking a lot about social justice issue and police reform and we see the need for that over and over again in some of the shootings of unarmed black men, which continues across this country, but make it a choice between crime and social justice is a problem for democrats and i think you see with joe biden's decision and where he stands on this, that is his re-election announcement on this issue of crime and border security, he has in recent weeks moved to shore up what has been against him in a re-election campaign. >> and so far the left has been muted on this, even on immigration. and we hear the complaints on press releases and you're not hearing elected officials. >> doing the whole thing and i would be curious about secretary johnson, when it comes to the issue at large, democrats are truly looking to get on offense on this, and you mentioned

something that i've heard that they're looking to do, talk about, for example, the assault weapons ban, and it has truly pragmatically no shot in congress as it is laid out right now and funding for the cops program et cetera and you also have democrats and matt gaetz saying let's abolish the fbi and the atf and hoping to use that as a wedge issue as well. >> jeh, what do you make so far of what secretary mayorkas has done? looks like it's working, but we'll find out in may, i guess. >> working off what we did in venezuela in the fall where we provided a legal safe pathway, which will discourage people from entering unlawfully, they've expanded that, and it looks like it's working. though it's way too early to declare victory, the numbers were down in january and january is typically a low month. >> yeah. it takes a couple of more months. all right. we'll get to the good stuff when we come back. we're going to talk a little

trump when you guys come back, but first we're going to talk about president biden's plan to cancel student loan debt and the uncertain future of that, and we'll show you how many b borrowers will be impacted and what's really at stake here politically. what's really at stake here politically.

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it down, there are going to be a lot of unhappy voters across the country in 2024 including in important battleground states. so let's unpack this. how did we get here? well, first, let's look at the cost of college tuition in over the last 30 years. the cost of a private university's tuition has gone up 80%. tuition in public university has gone up 125%. those are some big jumps for what it's worth, the cost of both housing and cars, those numbers -- percentages are actually higher than the cost of education. still, this biden student debt reef relief plan, if enacted, would provide $20,000 of relief for those that got pell grants and up to $10,000 for those with other types of student loans. and guess what? when this was offered, it was popular. over 26 million people have already applied for this debt relief even though it is not clear whether it's going to be allowed to happen. and if you break it down by

states, and you know how we like to do it around here by battleground states, you see there are big chunks of voters who might not be happy if this gets overturnoverturned. over a million in pennsylvania and over a million and a half in florida and a million in georgia. this is a popular program, if it gets repealed, there will be some unhappy voters. before we go, this week marks the 58th anniversary of bloody sunday when police tear gassed hundreds of protesters in selma, alabama, who were marching for racial equality and voting rights. back in 2015 i had the honor of speaking to congressman john lewis on the 50th anniversary of the selma march about his experience leading the marchers that day. >> we were kneeling. we were knocked down. they started beating us with night sticks, trampling us with horses, releasing the tear gas. i was hit in the head by a state trooper with a night stick. i lost consciousness.

50 years later i don't recall how i made it back across that bridge to the little church that we had left from. apparently a group literally carried me back to the church. >> it would be perfectly understandable if you were bitter, bitter today, bitter a week later, from when it happened, bitter 20 years. were you bitter ever? >> i was probably bitter then. i'm not bitter now. i grew in the movement of love, the way of peace, the way of non-violence and the way of forgiveness, as a way of life, as a way of living. >> john lewis died in 2020. president biden is in selma today to commemorate the anniversary of bloody sunday, and the reverend al sharpton will be leading the march alongside him. up next, can ron desantis

stop trump from the nomination while still courting the trump voter? we're about to find out. 're abo. ♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ get $1500 purchase allowance on a 2023 cadillac xt5 and xt6. ♪♪ visit your local cadillac dealer today.

>> welcome bac welcome back. all right. the republican presidential primary, donald trump in some ways reannounced, if you will, this weekend at cpac. take a listen. >> we are never going back to the party of paul ryan, karl rover, and jeb bush. we're not going back to the people who want to destroy our great social security system, even some in our own party. i wonder who that might be. in 2016, i declared i am your voice. today i add i am your warrior. i am your justice, and for those who have been wrong and betrayed, i am your retribution. >> i am your retribution. >> wow. to see a lot of good republican candidates who would make great presidents grovel or kiss up to both cpac and club for growth

is -- it bothers me because not one of those groups has ever solved a problem, and right now we have some complex problems in this country that have to be solved, and what donald trump's going to realize is they're going to start having infighting among those two groups because cpac's for trump but club for growth who has used trump in primary commercials to push their candidate push out trump, and we have an general election where democrats have their candidate and the republicans have the last candidate and it might open up the door for a new candidate because the independent voter, which is 40% of the registered voters now in america, are going to go, is this the only choice we have? >> susan, we did a little survey of cpac attendees just on the issue of ukraine, and it just shows you where the trump base

is on this, and this is a different lane than what we're used to. >> of course, i feel for the people of ukraine. i would like them to beat the russians, but we have so many problems here and there are open borders that the money have to be going to. >> think we need to focus on the people here first rather than other countries. >> don't take my taxpayer money and send it over to ukraine. enough with this, you know? enough with this war. >> susan, i think what's remarkable here is donald trump's carving up the outsider lane. this is not the mainstream republican position of ukraine, but it's trump's. >> it is, and it is not the mainstream republican position and not mitch mcconnell, for instance, but there is growing public concern and not just among trump voters about the extent and the length and the cost of the u.s. commitment to ukraine, and still there's majority support for continuing the effort, but it's really pressuring the administration to come up with how this war can end in a successful way and not

go on forever. but trump -- we say it's not the mainstream republican position. this is trump's party. this is not the republican party. this is the trump party. trump's position becomes the republican position. >> has he been able to position desantis as part of the establishment? >> he said this to governor sununu, the idea that trump is trying to run as an outsider because from the jump i've heard from sources close to his team, a la, 2016 and someone said to me this weekend, you know, he's doing better than he was at this point in 2016. i sure hope so. he was the president for four years. i mean it's almost as though they're trying to erase the fact that he was in the white house for four years. is he going to come up with a new nickname for desantis and in talking with people about cpac and club for growth, trump allies say this is the most

important gathering of conservatives that will happen in this campaign until the republican primary debate, and then i heard somebody else and a rival campaign adviser say, wait a second, these are the maga misfits, and i'm not quoting, but paraphrasing showing up to be super pro-trump and the adults in the room are going to club for growth. >> do you know what the difference is between the club for growth and cpac? the people who club for growth talk behind the cameras, behind the scenes. donald trump was talking to people. whatever you think of it, he was talking to the public. >> this could be wild. you could have the major candidate in the party, an indicted criminal defendant out on bail. >> he said he was going to keep running if intighted. >> do you know when he said to me? you know what was new? he said people should vote by mail-in ballot. >> speaking of new, larry hogan is not running, and i assume that has as much to do with

chris sununu getting start on him. >> they're all looking for a lane unless it's a third party potential lane. >> you've been to some meeting with no labels. joe manchin has been to meetings with no labels and he's been flirting about this. is it only if it's trump/biden? >> the majority of people say the parties have failed us and there's a better choice for president of the united states. >> and you elect donald trump and the voters who draw with the no label candidate come from the democratic side. >> and they're getting on the ballots. they're getting on the ballots in states. you have to remember ballots is a state issue. it's not a federal issue. it's a party issue. it's a state issue. >> that's the goal that they can have ballot access to all 50 states? >> enough to win the presidency. >> they've tried this. do you buy it? >> it's an insurance policy. if the majority of people do not agree with the two-party selection. and right now the majority of democrats don't agree with biden and the majority of republicans

don't agree with trump. so it will be interesting. >> there is a significant fraction of republican voters who will stick with trump no matter what. >> oh, i know that. >> if he's in jail, they will stick with trump and that's a diamond-hard support. no other candidate in america would have. >> for growth, it's money talking and it's big super pac money. >> speaking of that, i have to stop the talking because i've got to end the show. that's all we have for today. thanks for watching. we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, even selection sunday, it's "meet the press." ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ if you put me back in the white house, their reign is over. their reign will be over, and they know it. and ameri