. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> i am your warrior. i am your justice.

and for those who have been wronged and betrayed, i am your retribution. i am your retribution. >> donald trump at cpac over the weekend, feeding his followers the dark conspiracy driven vision for america that they crave. just like fox news, trump and the rest of the republican party would rather fill their followers' brains with lies than tick them off by telling them the truth. also tonight, trump pledges to run in 2024 even if he's indicted. the strongman principle used by other indicted leaders around the world where criminal charges actually make them more popular with their base. plus, how ron desantis is creating just the right kind of right wing safe space marjorie greene was asking for where you're free to lead your cruelty fly and the children of white christians won't have to worry their delicate, fragile minds learning anything that makes

their right wing parents uncomfortable. we begin tonight with jim jordan's subcommittee on the weaponization of the federal government. jordan vowed the committee will bring the receipts on the supposed deep state war against trump and conservatives. complete with a slew of whistleblowers and their damning insider evident of fbi abuse targeting republicans. while exposing the justice department as corruptly plotting to bring down trump and his allieses. well, turns out he could have put that on a sandwich because it was a bunch of baloney. last week, a 300 page report from democrats on the house judicially committee detailed what actually went down when the first three, quote, whistleblowers testified privately before the subcommittee. and spoiler alert. they aren't actually whistleblowers. they were actually just a trio of angry former fbi officials who did not present any actual evidence of wrongdoing at the doj or the fbi. instead, these witnesses each endorsed an alarming series of

conspiracy theories related to the january 6th capitol attack, the covid vaccine, and the validity of the 2020 election. but the real kicker, the real kicker is that two of these so-called whistleblowers confirmed in their testimony that they received financial support from a trump ally of, you guessed it, from a top ally, i should say, of donald trump. a guy by the name of kash patel. the whole thing turned out to be such a sham, even fox news was mocking it. but the sad reality is, none of that will probably matter to most republican voters and fox viewers. it likely won't change anything for them because the republicans who were clamoring for this committee in the first place weren't doing so because they were eager to hear facts. they just want to hear the conspiracies they already believe in repeated back to them. they want their beliefs, what they believe in their gut, they want to believe it has some sort of official backing, even if it's clearly ridiculous and a patina of legitimacy, they want

it. that's not only what jim jordan is doing here but what the republican party, specifically, donald trump, has been doing for years. he actually understands his people. it's why if you'll recall, after the 2020 election, trump wanted the doj to just say the election was corrupt. they didn't have to prove it. he knew there was no proof because it actually wasn't true. he just needed them to say it. same thing with ukraine. the reason trump was impeached the first time was because he tried to extort president zelenskyy to just say that ukraine was investigating the bidens. literally, just muddy the waters and make biden seem vaguely criminal. trump understands that his base doesn't care about reality. reality is often painful and disappointing for them. they care about feelings. they want to hear that their gut feelings are right. they want their beliefs to be validated. we have seen how they can get when their feelings aren't validated. the leadership of fox news knows

this too. it's how they wound up in this dominion lawsuit. "the new york times" reported over the weekend about the panic that ensued within the company in the days following the 2020 election. when they were the first network to accurately call the state of arizona for joe biden. now, typically for news networks being the first to call a state is seen as a big accomplishment. but fox didn't see it that way. peter baker writes that the monday after the election, several executives convened a zoom meeting discussing, quote, how to keep from angering the network's conservative audience again by calling an election for a democrat before the competition. maybe the fox news executives mused, maybe they should abandon the sophisticated new election predicting system and revert to the slower less accurate model or maybe they should base calls not solely on numbers but on how viewers might react. or maybe they should just delay the calls even if they were right, to keep the audience in suspense and boost viewership.

fox's bret baier and martha maccallum, the supposed real journalists there, even suggested it was not enough to call a state based on numerical calculations, the standard for generations. instead, viewer reaction should be considered. in a trump environment, mccallum said, the game is just very, very different. it isn't about accuracy on the right, it isn't about facts. it's telling people what they want to hear, even if it's false or just straight up dangerous. which begs the question, how do you get to the truth when there's such a large section of the population that not only doesn't care, they don't want it. and joining me now is mehdi hasan, host of the mehdi hasan show here on msnbc and peacock. and author of the new book "win every argument, the art of debating, persuading, and public speaking." and here he is. i have my copyright here. when i see you next, i have to get a signature from you on it. i would love for you to just get

into that, because like here's the challenge that i see for people who are in the communications business. you know, on our side, i guess. is that there is a whole wing of the party for whom the dealers and the buyers are now the same people. the congress members who have been elected already believe in the conspiracy theories and so they get into congress to prove the conspiracy theories are true, and when they don't, the people that they serve don't care because they just heard it on tv, and that's all they care about. you wrote a whole book about win every argument. how do you win that argument? >> it's very difficult. i was on a call-in show earlier today and someone was asking about what do you do with your maga uncle at the thanksgiving table. how do you argue with them? >> i said you can win the argument, i can give you a bunch of tips as to what facts to bring, what emotions to use. the problem is we live in this environment where bernie sanders can go on fox or pete buttigieg can go on fox and liberals say what a great argument they made,

but that doesn't cancel out the next five nights of tucker and hannity undoing it all. when you have a constant media diet of lies and propaganda which these people are injecting into their veins every night and the hosts don't even believe the nonsense they're saying to their viewers, by the way, joy, you and i are often accused of having contempt or disrespect for the conservative voters. no one has more contempt or disrespect for conservative voters than conservative media personalities, by the way. look, how do you stop that when you have nonstop lies? i don't have the silver bullet. it's very hard when 20% to 30% of the american public has been cocooned off in a bubble where they're fed misinformation, disinformation by the likes of ingraham and hannity and rupert murdoch who goes under oath in a deposition and say yeah, my hosts endorsed a big lie. i don't believe in it, but by the way, according to the reporting, murdoch hands over secret democratic party ads that haven't aired yet to jared

kushner. in any other news organization, heads would roll, but fox is not a news organization, so no heads have to roll. that's why i refuse to call it fox news. it's fox. all journalistic enterprise. >> the smartest thing they ever did from the purposes of brand is put the word news at the end. that is the thing that sort of makes the whole game work. and i think a lot about, i used to every so often tune in to rush limbaugh because i wanted to hear what he was saying. he would give the wildest beliefs of his base, which are white working class people for the most part. he would say to them, it's really not the rich, it's really not, you know, the system. it's really the blacks. it's the fem anazis, the women. they're against you. they're trying to hurt you. that was very powerful because it was a feelings message. it didn't need any facts. >> exactly. >> fox news took that same brand and put the word news at the end of it. there's almost nothing more powerful than that. and jim jordan is doing the same

thing. he puts this thing called committee and committee is saying look, my wild belief system has a committee investigating it. it must be real. i really don't know how you overcome that when a good third of the adult population is immersed in that day in and day out. >> so, i would say two things. number one, we have got to stop legitimizing this stuff as news. and i have said for a while, i agree with senator elizabeth warren democrats shouldn't be going on this channel. i was glad to see joe biden refuse to do the super bowl interview with bret baier, bret baier, straight news bret baier, who according to "new york times" reporting on saturday was saying in private, hey, let's not just trust the numbers. we need an extra layer when we decide the election results. what's the extra layer? whether trump agrees? so i'm glad joe biden did what barack obama and bill clinton and others have refused to do. i'm not going to play this game. democrats need to pursue this. we have to make the point this is a propaganda organization,

not a news organization. the second point is what you said a moment ago. they have the emotion. one of the things i say in the book, chapter two, liberals, progressives, the left, they kind of handed over the emotional battlefield to the right. progressives, liberals, democrats always want to win an argument with one more statistic, one more fact. just give me time for one more pew poll or peer review paper and i'll change people's minds. that's not how it works. you have to get to them emotionally. you have to win the battle for emotions. you have to some spire people, rouse people, show some passion. that's what democrats need to do to fight against the emotional energy on the right. >> let me read a little bit from your book. it says here, this is from your book. donald trump is probably unaware that he's an avid practitioner of a debating method known among playoffers at the gish gallop. they bury them in a torrent of incorrect, irrelevant, or

idiotic arguments. one pithy tweet put it, the amount of energy needed to refute bs is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it. the entire strategy rests on exploiting this advantage. by the time you have begun preparing your rebuttal, they have rattled off a dozen. they want to trick the audience into believing the facts and evidence are on their side. it's delivery over depth. the proof of verbosity. and it is constant, and it's not just in this country. we have a world now in which you have a bibi netanyahu under indictment and able to get re-elections. vladimir putin overwhelming his own country with the idea they're winning a war that body bags are coming home. this is a proven method. trump has it. i'm concerned that the media falls for it in part because they'll do false equivalency. they'll say, desantis is completely different from trump. how? he's not. he's just doing it more

aggressively. >> it's such a good point you make about the global angle. trump did inspire a national movement. we have these mini trumps, the kari lakes of the world, following the same tactic, and a global tactic. i used to interview politicians from all over the world, and post 2016, they had the same trumpian ticks about fake news, trying to bury you in nonsense lies. and that is the strategy that trump does. i say in the book, you have to be able to pick your battle. don't try to fight them on every lie. i say don't budge. we have to ask a lot of questions. we can't let someone come on the show and say nonsense and we move on to the next topic. stick around, don't budge, don't move on. and the third point is you have to call this stuff out. i give it the name, the gish gallop. this idea of overwhelming you with nonsense, the steve bannon flood the zone with excrement strategy. we have to call it out, nail it down and say that's what they're

doing. it's propaganda, not good faith argument. we cannot play a both sides game on this. >> i love that you came on here and described it because i think you and i have the same philosophy. if somebody comes on and you just let them say sentence after sentence after sentence of lies and say let's move on, you have now given them the power of saying those lies on television, and we can never forget saying that on television gives it reality and truth. you need to in the moment try to cut it off and try to rebut it. you're the best at doing that. mehdi hasan, here it is, the book, appreciate you. everybody should get this book. >> coming up next on "the reidout," pop quiz. did donald trump run for president from inside a prison cell? stay tuned and find out. the more you learn the more you want to know, and then it just fuels that fire. it filled my soul to be honest. explore your family story at ancestry.com - [female narrator] they line up by the thousands.

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at any moment we could get an announcement from any of the four criminal investigations donald trump is facing with the possibility of indictments. the fact that any of these investigations could land trump in a prison cell isn't deterring him from taking a third shot at the white house. >> can we take this moment to assure your donors and supporters that you're in this race to stay no matter what happened with those investigations? >> i wouldn't even think about leaving. these are fake stories. it's a disgraceful thing that's going on. the country has never seen anything like it. and yet it will probably enhance my numbers. but it's a very bad thing for

america, for the country. >> yeah, and here's the thing. if he is indicted, trump actually could legally still be a candidate. there's nothing in the constitution that says a candidate needs to be a free man. in fact, it sets out only three qualifications to run for president. you need to be a natural born u.s. citizen at least 35 years and have been a resident for at least 14 years. that's it. if trump is behind bars, he wouldn't even be the first person to run for president from prison. in 1920, socialist presidential candidate eugene debs was in a federal prison on charges represented to his protested against world war i and still won nearly a million votes. en1992, lyndon larouche ran while incarcerated for tax evasion and mail fraud. and as recently as 2012, keith judd was able to get on the ballot in west virginia's democratic primary and won 41% of the vote against incumbent

president barack obama. it's also not that unusual on an international level. strongman do it all the time. there's a strongman principle that being a convicted felon or being currently under indictment is no impediment to seeking power again. just ask russian president vladimir putin, former italian president silvio berlusconi or benjamin netanyahu. joining me is joyce vance, msnbc legal analyst, and i just -- i just -- it is sort of odd to think about the fact that donald trump could literally be indicted and also be imprisoned and run. but it's constitutionally true. do you think that -- how does that fact impact, do you think, the way prosecutors are thinking about it? because indicting him wouldn't stand in the way of him running or winning. >> well, it won't. you know, the one exception might be if he were prosecuted

in connection with january 6th, with the insurrection. and the 14th amendment could conceivably bar him from holding office. but of course, because he's donald trump and he doesn't respect the rules and doesn't respect the norms, he would challenge that in court. and it would be a mess. i think that's the point that you're making here, joy. this is not someone who is running for office to serve the country. this is someone who is running for office to serve maybe even as a last desperate chance to save himself. nothing that he does will be animated by a spirit of public service. it will all be animated by his personal need and desire to do as much as he can to get himself out of the bad situation. >> and think about it. he could get back in office, pardon himself. i want to read, because we were just talking with mehdi hasan about how a lot of the strongman behave in similar ways. we talked a little bit about netanyahu. he was recently re-elected. he's under corruption charges.

he was indicted after dropping a bid for immunity back in 2020. he's now come in and has essentially overtaken the judiciary, they're changing the rules so that, and such that he can control the way that the judiciary treats him. voila. it is a model for the way trump could operate, and he's already got a supreme court that is real trumpy, that they seem to be very much in his camp in a lot of ways and he's got plenty of his own federal judges to do what he wants. >> i think it's tough to know which comes first. netanyahu or trump. they certainly seem to be very simpatico when it comes to breaking democratic norms and serving their own ends. in some ways, the judiciary has been the one ray of hope here because after the election in 2020, courts including the supreme court, refused to let trump succeed in pushing the big lie. but i think you're correct to point out that, you know, the judiciary is no different than any other entity in government

these days. and of course, we saw the troubling case in front of judge cannon in south florida, when trump tried to kneecap the federal investigation into his possession of classified materials. so it's good to be concerned. it's good to be alert. ultimately, the responsibility here falls on the republican party for denouncing the monster that they have created and pointing out how norm violating trump is, even if he technically could govern from prison. >> the other thing i think i would love for you to comment on is we're already seeing this trump style filter down into officials in the states. you have in georgia these attempts to change the rules to make it so that you can get rid of a prosecutor who is doing something that you politically don't like. thinking fani willis here, making it easier to cashier someone like her, two of the matters under consideration per "the new york times" would allow lawmakers to punish or remove prosecutors for loosely defined reasons including willful

misconduct and reduce the number of signatures do a recall. you see similar things going on in pennsylvania, similar things in other states. going after quote/unquote liberal prosecutors. it's frightening to me that the way republicans are responding to sort of lawlessness among their ranks is by saying, we'll just get rid of the prosecutors so they can't touch us. >> what's going on in georgia is particularly troubling. you know, this has been attempted before. after ahmaud arbery was killed in south georgia, was murdered by three white men and prosecutors tried to keep that investigation from coming to pass, georgia legislaors proposed a measure that would involve oversight over prosecutors, and it went nowhere. republicans refused to support it. so now we get to this bill, which looks like a thinly disguised effort to give the legislature some way to appoint a board, of course, the folks doing the appointing would all be republicans, as a way to rein

in fani willis, and the example they have come up to justify with it, they're saying it's not about willis. it's actually about another prosecutor from 2021 who went to prison for corruption. and the response to that is pretty obvious, right? that was 2021. and you're now just two terms later getting this bill up. and the reality is, if they're saying there was no way to deal with that prosecutor who was corrupt, well, he was dealt with in exactly the right way. he was prosecuted, he went to prison. this looks like the thinnest of excuses to control willis. >> and a fun way to try to do trump's bidding and punish a prosecutor he's afraid of. joyce vance, thank you. still ahead, a comprehensive look at the ways ron desantis is looking to make florida a safe space for conservatives while everyone else can pound sand. n d with intelligent alerts when a person or familiar face is detected. so you can listen in...

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police abuse to a fight over the first amendment. desantis is constructing the safe space of marjorie and her far right fellow travelers dreams. and if he and his legislative friends get their way, florida won't be the place woke goes to die, it will be the place where bigots go to live. want to emulate your favorite president when he was a landlord and write c for colored on black would-be renters applications and deny them? how about refusing to hire or sell your home to a black or brown person. want to scream inn-word or f-word to your coworkers or yell into a bull horn to jewish drivers for just passing by, or maybe you want to fire an employee for getting same-sex married or coming out as trans or having a child out of wedlock, or what if someone violates your safe space by saying you discriminated against them or calls you a racist or a bigot? well, a florida republican wants to make it so you can sue them and collect $35,000. at least according to a new

bill, hb-991. which would classify an accusation that someone discriminated against another party for race or sex or sexual orientation or gender identity as defamation per se. if the alleged defamer claims that the plaintiff said -- what the plaintiff said or did is part of religious beliefs, truth would not be a defense. the bill would also apply to the internet, so now all you bigots can fire away online, and as long as you live in florida or claim your hateration is part of your christian beliefs, anyone who belly aches about being taunted by you would have to pay up. and according to another proposed law, online bloggers who write about desantis or state legislatures will have to register with the state if they're paid so they can be monitored, old soviet union style, to make sure they never hurt ron's precious feelings. desantis, crist fs rufo, and friends are turning florida into a hater's paradise. a white supremacist superstate where it's literally legal to

make white christians feel uncomfortable. children are barred from learning anything about white folks from history or reading books that make white christians feel icky or being in the presence of someone in drag, sorry rupaul. actually, not sorry, it's the mask-free, modernity free state of florida. if those pesky black lives matter marchers hit the streets, according to another nifty florida law, you can hit them with your car and just drive away, no problem. and margie, if you get sick of all those black people finding a way around the anti-voting laws in your way too woke state where they keep electing black and jewish senators comrk to florida, where ron will just have the blacks arrested for voting. problem solved. ron is also fixing all that woke disney nonsense and restoring it to the wonderland he remembers as a child and where he and his own disney princess got married after singling out disney for special punishment for saying no to his don't say gay law, ron

now personally controls disney's board, which includes the book banner cofounder of moms if liberty, the head of the orlando chapter of the federalist society, and a pastor who thinks tapwater turns people gay. desantis thinks they will make disney world the happiest place on earth again, at least for white christian nationalists. the gays and blacks, not so much. again, not sorry. one more thing about this new war on woke defamation bill. it applies to journalists too. and would clear the way for your favorite supreme court majority led by anti-woke political crusader sam alito to gut the first amendment and make journalists even outside florida stop reporting anything that makes conservatives mad. i'll explain after the break. ar? - if i would've used kayak to book our car, we could have saved on our trip instead of during our trip. ughh - kayak. search one and done.

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through the pandemic, getrefunds.com can see if it may qualify for a payroll tax refund of up to $26,000 per employee. all it takes is eight minutes to get started. then work with professionals to assist your business with its forms and submit the application. go to getrefunds.com to learn more. the latest salvo from florida governor ron desantis and his war on all things woke looks to fulfill one right-wing fantasy, stripping away press freedoms with repercussions that would extend far beyond florida to a pair of new bills. one would require bloggers who wreet about elected officials to register with the state and disclose payments or be subject to fines. and another would make it easier to sue for defamation. lowering the bar for suing not just for journalists but anyone potentially making supposedly defamatory statements including over social media. ron desantis has made no effort

to hide his true intentions. he said he wants to make it easier to sue media outlets, aiming to overturn the 1964 "new york times" company versus silver supreme court decision. that case centered around a full page ad in the paper from civil rights groups fund-raising for reverend dr. martin luther king jr.'s defense in 1960 describing a wave of terror in police actions across the south. most of the charges were accurate but there were some factual errors. they sued for libel, claiming it implied him, and he won, but the supreme court justices overturned the lower court finding that public officials must show that what was said was done with actual malice. it's also the supreme court precedent that fox news, by the way, is using to defend itself against voting machine company dominion's $1.6 billion defamation lawsuit. how's that for irony? joining me now is state

representative ben driscoll of florida who is the leader of the democratic opposition in the state house, and bobby block, journalist and executive director of the florida first maemd foundation. this bill, hb-991, i want to read a little bit about this and its actual malice clause. a public figure does not need to show actual malice to prevail in a defamation cause of action when the allegation does not relate to the reason for his or her public status. to show actual malice when the defam toigz action is fabricated by the defendant or the project of his or her imagination. the way i'm reading that is let's say a news organization was reporting on a public official who used a slur, they could be sued for defamation. they could be sued for defamation if they reported it seems to me anything that was negative about ron desantis or a

member of the state legislature. am i reading that wrong? >> there's a lot of provisions. it's very difficult to take a single provision out of this piece of legislation. and it interlocks in a way. there's some other provisions in there whereby it doesn't even have to be false because it revives another legal maneuver which has already been overruled by the florida supreme court. but they're retroducing it, which means you could write something about a public official that is 100% true, but if the official deems that the intent of the article was to make him look bad, him or her look bad, then that would be enough for defamation. the section that you're referring to basically attempts to turn "new york times" v. sullivan on its head, so if i write an article, say, about

let's say the commissioner of agriculture, and i say he never graduated high school. and that could be absolutely true, but it has nothing to do with his official job as a commissioner, he could sue on the basis of that. or if i say something that's false, that was a result of an honest mistake like in "the new york times" v. sullivan case, that also could be grounds for defamation. and last but not least, if you quote an anonymous source, according to this legislation if it becomes law, and you're not willing to identify this source in a trial, then under this provision of this law, it automatically has to be presumed to be false and therefore is grounds for defamation. >> you know, minority leader driscoll, you're an attorney. this sounds to me like they're

attempting to chill any reporting on the governor or on republican state legislatures that would embarrass them in any way. so if they did something or if anyone in the state that is a republican did something that would be considered discriminatory or racist or bigoted, they could be -- they could sue. and i'm going to add to that another thing that the administration is doing right now, that the desantis administration is doing. the department of management services has changed the rules for groups or individuals who want to reserve space inside the capitol, the changes require organizations seeking to reserve areas to make their request through specific administration officials or legislative leaders that require that they line up with the mission of the state. that means no protests. so you have to agree with ron desantis' beliefs and his policies or you can't have a permit to be in the capitol for an event. that's very -- i don't know, you

could do that havana and it would fit right in. >> this is why we appreciate you so much, because you're telling the truth of what's happening in florida. i do believe this is of national interest because if people don't want florida's present day reality to become their future, folks need to know what ron desantis is doing here, because he does intend to run for president in 2024, at least all signs indicate that. this bill frankly, it feels like a recycled trump turned into a bill, because the goal is to expose media companies and critics to so much liability that it chokes out strong journalism of any dissent. as a lawyer and an elected official, i was frankly speechless when i read this bill. it will do more to damage the freedom of speech and the free press than has been done in nearly 250 years of american history. it takes away the shield media has used against public figures for years taking away their ability to hold the powerful accountable. >> bobby block, there's this media tick where they try to say

that trump and desantis are completely different. that desantis is some sort of moderate, but you know, the post that you wrote on your website, the first amendment foundation, talks about a world in which the only thing that reporters could report on are dogs and cats and puppies because they're too afraid to report on anything else. trump and desantis have both said they would like to be able to sue media outlets that report things that are true about them that they don't like. i want to go through some of these bills. they have got this, you know, they have taken over disney. they have don't say gay which is the state telling teachers what they can say in class. you have the stop woke act that says you can't make anyone feel uncomfortable and they mean white americans uncomfortable. they have restrictions on library materials, they're telling people they can't protest, saying they cannot protest or you can attack protesters with your car. it feels like everything is consolidating around making sure no one can criticize the current governor ahead of his running for president. >> it's more than just the

governor. what these bills do when you take them into their whole account is, it's death to public discourse. you can't be in any media without feeling the sting of this potential legislation. new media, social media, conservative and christian media are not exempt from this. it's an attempt, anyone who would sit down in front of a microphone or in front of a tv screen and try to say something will have to think very carefully before they do. >> i just need my profession, i need the journalists that are saying benign things about this governor to understand that this is not trading in trump for some moderate or some ronald reagan like figure. it's trading in trump for somebody who is functionally doing the things trump could only dream of in terms of essentially ending free speech and having government literally

control speech and make sure that the speech only aligns with his particular racial and religious views. that ain't freedom. florida state representative driscoll who is the minority leader in the state house, and robert block, thank you. up next, as we're staying with the state of florida longer. as florida's professors -- one florida professor's tireless crusade to make sure black history is not entirely wiped out. wiped off the map in the state. we're back in a second. with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. ♪ customize and save. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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desantis made everything he can to prevent black history from being top. but floridians are fighting back. history professor has been leading bus tours of sites of past racial violence in the states. the last weekend, and msnbc's trymaine lee road along. the tour started at the greenwood cemetery in orlando where julie perry is buried. or, july perry, sorry, is buried. he was lynched in 1920 after assisting a friend who tried to vote. part of the okee massacre that killed dozens and drove almost every black resident from the town. they trymaine talked to educator, mother ginger clark, about the importance of hearing this story. >> this story about july perry, to know that back then, and the 19 twenties, there were with

prosperous african americans that were living and prospering and doing their thing. it shows that we, as a people, we thrive from being able to work and support ourselves. and we've always been successful, but those stories are held or hidden from us. >> the tour also visited life oak, where 50-year-old will be james howard was forced by white meant to jump into the water within his hands and feet tied, as his father watched. that storm hit home for 15-year-old student marcus greene. >> at 15, you are at the same age that boy was when he was killed. this has to affect you in some deep way, that you are literally the same age? >> when i touched his tombstone, i really thought a sense of serenity and gratitude, you know? that could have been me. >> the tour concluded in and

around rosewood, the site of the 1923 massacre that decimated the town, and possibly killed hundreds. trymaine lee joins me now. he's an msnbc correspondent, hosting the interim market broadcast, and my friend, trymaine, and socialist you got to go on that door. i have been wanted to go on that marvin doctor or myself. so, tell me about the tour and the folks you spoke with. >> so you really did out, miss out on the energy of the moment. you are familiar with mr. done, at 82 years old, this man is vibrant and strong and full of energy. what he's done at 82 years old, he's doing a lot of work, he said i don't have time to sit down. the future is at stake. so on one of these stories, he brings out young students, high school students, college students, but also their families. and that was central to that energy there. it was multi generations of young people, young black people, especially who are taking this journey throughout the south, to uncover those dark, sometimes ugly, but also hidden pieces of our history

that have shaped us in so many ways. and mr. woke said, listen, if there's a woke model in florida, sign me up. i'm the leader. he said if being woke means sticking to the truth, and passing these to the next generation, to get them going, and get them focused on the ugly parts of america, but also the parts that need to occurring, and they are in a position to change, that then, sign me up. again, talking to young people on that bus, families on that tour, i spoke to one woman that as you played a clip from her in the beginning. she talked specifically about this idea of handing down the torch, passing those gems from the past in order to make a future. let's take a listen. >> i am a mother of two boys, and i want them to know that every step of the way, somebody, somebody surrendered, somebody gave up something for what they had to gain, for me, as a woman

of color. and to be where i am today, it also reminds me of what i have to do to propel, prepare and make sure that these stories are told, and these stories are not. >> joy, we talked about, it's almost the shade that we stand on broad shoulders, and we drink from wells that we did not dig. and there's so much of that, and regular folks, community people, trying to make sure that what ron, governor desantis is trying to do, barry, hide, quiet, mute, chill. will not be chilled at all. >> there's such a weakness in a desperation to bury history and say that it is illegal to learn. you know, i think about the fact that if the reason it was illegal for enslaved people to read is that they didn't want them to know they had a past or future, right? they didn't want them to be able to understand that there was a world outside of that feel. and it seems to me that

desantis, a huge pass for the media, i'm sorry, but he does, he's trying to do the same thing out of a fear and the weakness. it doesn't seem like a position of strength that season. marvin dunn is strong. >> marvin done, certainly strong. we've heard time and again, people with no history, they are powerless. and so, for black folks in this community especially, and a number of outliers, mr. dunn, is quickly to point out that there are always white out lies in the midst of all the white supremacist violence that black people have faced. but not only does it speak to a kind of weakness, but how we see ourselves as americans. a proud, strong country should be willing to embrace every single part of itself, not just the good patriotic, you know, those parts of it. but also the dirty parts that we can build and grow from. and fortunately for us as americans, whether you are a journalist, or a historian, there are people who are, again, shining light in very dark places. but, again, as we know, a great country, a country that's proud

of who it is, you know, which hopes to be should have no fear addressing those, you know, really ugly parts of ourselves, too. >> well, it says something, i, think about ruffo's and the run desantis's of the world, that when they look at the ugly history of the country, and like moms for liberty, they don't assume that their children will identify with the heroes that are attempting to abolish slavery, the abolitionist and the white allies at that time. they just assume their kids will feel guilty because they think they're gonna identify with enslavers and the bad guys. that ain't saying something about history. that's saying about y'all. you may be one of think about. that trymaine lee, thank you for all that you do. appreciate you. please be sure to check out trymaine's special podcast, mini series into america, presenting street disciples, politics, power, and the rise of hip-hop. and that is tonight reidout. all in with chris hayes starts right now. gh t now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> tonight on all in -- >> x