some indirect way in the hope that he will pick them, because we all know that mike pence doesn't have much of a -- the highest respect for him. but he's an example of what happens when you call for that courage. he spoke out against donald trump, and i think it helped cost him his seat, the last time around. so, there is a price to pay for confronting donald trump directly. and most republicans have shown that they are unwilling to pay that price and bear the burden it comes with engaging and bringing on the wrap of trump. fernand amandi and carlos curbelo, thank you so much for joining us tonight on all in with chris hayes. that is all in on this monday night. i am jason johnson, sitting in for chris hayes. he'll be back tomorrow. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, jason. it's great to see you in that chair. great to have you here. >> thank you so much. i am honored. thank you so much. here. >> thank you so mup. i am honored. >> thank you at home as well for being here. we're super happy to have you here. september 29, 1973, the vice president of the united states flew to california to give a

speech. and it was a speech that he knew he would be giving to some of his most die-hard fans, people who would follow him to the end of the earth, and that was crucial at that moment in his political life because just a few weeks earlier "the wall street journal" had been first to report that that same vice president he was under federal criminal investigation on potential felony corruption charges, bribery, extortion, tax evasion, a whole bunch of stuff. this was very shocking front page news at the time. it was very damaging news for obvious reasons to the vice president, and he was completely enraged about it. so he flew out to california to give a talk to his most rabid supporters. it was the national conference of republican women. and these women were hard core

activists, as a group generally speaking they were quite right-wing, and a group generally speaking they were quote devoted to superhero agnew. this has been forgotten in history but agnew was seen as being much more hard right, much more uncompromising than that old swish president nixon was. the real activists of the republican party, they loved spiro agnew even more than they loved richard nixon. so while agnew, their guy, was embattled by this reported federal investigation he goes up there to give a speech, and what he told them in that speech start off blunt but kind of normal. he said i am innocent of the charges against me. high then told them -- this was slightly more surprising -- he told the crowd he was going to use the courts himself to turn the tables and investigate the justice department for

investigating him. oh, you're going to investigate me, well i'm going to investigate you right back. you're the real scandal, you're the real scoundrels. that got a big round of cheers superspiro agnew, then the thing that got the republican women in that room up on their chairs standing, applauding, and screaming for him, the apex of his speech was when he said because the whole process was so corrupt, because the whole thing was such a witch hunt against him, because they were only coming after him because he was a big deal and he was-curve and all the liberals out there and the deep state were trying to -- he told that kraut he wanted to set expectations. they should understand and they should know no matter what happened to him, no matter what these justice department

prosecutors tried to ulpull-on him, no one should expect him to resign. >> they are trying to recoup their reputation at my expense. i'm a big trophy. because small and fearful men have been frightened in the furnishing evidence against me, they have perjured themselves, in many cases it's my understanding. i will not resign if indicted. i will not resign if indicted. >> and the crowd goes wild. vice president spiro agnew speaking in 1973 i will not resign if indicted, i will not resign if indicted. exactly 11 days later vice president spiro agnew was indicted and he resigned within two minutes.

he'd actually done a deal with federal prosecutors with where they let him plead no contest to just one of the 40 felonies they charged him with. and if he agreed to that no context plea they would let him off on the 39 felonies. just amazing. i mean that is a political classic. i will not resign if indicted. the fact he said it twice for emphasis just makes it so much worse. yes, you will, and we won't have to wait two weeks for it, buddy. took him 11 days. so that was 1973, i will not resign if indicted. that was 1973. this was yesterday. trump vows not to drop out of the 2024 if indicted. trump says he won't drop out of the 2024 race if he's indicted. trump said he would stay in the 2024 race if indicted. everybody, say it all together

now. i will not resign if indicted. the exact same thing. does he know he's living history? does he have any idea? somebody should also see if you can get him to say i am not a crook. he'll be saying nixon's most famous line if you get him to say that. a couple weeks ago here on this show we talked about something happening abroad. we talked about big growing protests in israel, protests against a plan by that country emphasis prime minister to effectively take over the judicial system in that country, to take over the courts merchandise. the prime minister in israel is facing criminal corruption charges himself, and show he says the court system is out of control and he's going to bring it under control, specifically he's going to bring it under his control and he's basically going to take it ever. so law enforcement and the

courts would no longer be independent. he would consolidate power massively by consolidating control over that part of the government, which would no more push back for anything he wanted to, and also presumably the corruption charges would go poof. and once that happens, of course, you don't have to worry about dissuaded from any other potential crimes that might capture your fancy in the future pause you control the legal system, you control the courts. you can do what you want. an independent legal system, an independent judiciary is the one thing that prevents would-be dictators from taking control.

that's why we reported the big protests in israel. this week in israel the protests are still going on. it's been nine straight weeks of inin fact increasingly large and increasingly determined protests in multiple cities in that country. and now tonight multiple news organizations are reporting that important parts of that country's military are joining a form of protest as well as a way of standing up for the independent judiciary. here's the front page of "the new york times" tonight. a plan by prime minister benjamin netanyahu to severely curtail the powers of israel's supreme court has prompted weeks of demonstrations, rattled the country's technology sector and raised fears of political violence. now protests are emerging even within the nation's military. hundreds of soldiers in the military reserves either have

signed letters expressing reluctance to participate in nonessential duty or pulled out of training units. the affected units and whose graduates have helped drive the tech industry as well as elite combat units. that's a whole of society response, a loud rejection of people saying, no, we want the legal system left alone. we want our legal system, our judiciary to be left independent. it stays independent. and, you know, if you care about israel itself as a country, that's certainly of interest, that's a very important thing in that country. as "the times" puts it tonight it's one of the biggest and longest waves of protests in israeli history. but it's also categorically of interest to us as americans. i think because we do sometimes

see tendencies, trends, patterns more easily in other countries than we can see them here at home. so, yes, for us i think it's relatively easy for us to see the similarities of this one effort to have a political party take over the legal system. it's easy for us to see from a distance how similar that effort is to what the authoritarian leader of hungary is. victor orban did this in hungary too. he spent the better part of the last decade taking control of the courts and the legal system. so now in the country there's no real legal system. it's just part of orban's paper tiger. it answers to him, punishes his enemies, whatever he wants them

to do. and, again, from a distance it's easy for us to see in different countries the same pattern. from a distance it's easy for us to see people protesting in israel right now and the thing happening in hungary is very similar to the thing the authoritarian leader of russia did during his time in power. putin took power in russia 1999 and right after he ate the independent judiciary for breakfast he followed up by eating the independent judicial system for lunch. an authoritarian cannot achieve

its full potential if you have an independent press, if you have an independent legal system, if you have an independent coequal branch of government. what does the many to be an authoritarian? by deaf negz what it means is be an authoritarian you get to do whatever you want. as such you can't abide by any competing source of authority in your country. no independent source of expertise, which is why they often go after academia, often go after universities, higher education and even regular education. i mean they can't abide anybody else in their country who's allowed to govern in any way. they can't abide anybody else allowed to produce any form of criticism or oversight or accountability for the dear leader, right? that's how it works all over the world. that's why ow tharitarian leaders look they do the same

thing in every country. it's because they do the same thing in every country. and when authoritarians and would-be authoritarians try to get rid of these other important institutions in their society, institutions that do provide these challenges to them, these alternate sources of credibility and truth. when authoritarians try to get rid of these institutions the way you prevent is when the people of that country stand up and protect them and don't let the dear leader take them over. once the independence of those institutions is gone, they're gone. here in the united states we've watched over the past few years as our version of one of these guys has railed against and tried to delegitimize everybody who has investigated him for

anything. so the press is the enemy of the people, the scum of the earth, it's all fake news, terrible people, don't believe any of them, the media is trying to kill you and we should kill them first. or the fbi, right? conservatives i thought loved the fbi. no, now it's let's defund the fbi. let's arrest the fbi's leaders, the fbi full of monsters. the whole justice department, they're the enemy of the people, too. they're corrupt. they're the gestapo. they're the embodiment of scandal. nobody is allowed to criticize, tell the truth, no one is allowed to investigate. and any threat that poses a threat to that dear leader that epty is to be attacked, delegitimize if possible or killed off. we all understand how this works. what we have been watching for

next, though, is what comes after that. what's the act of furtherance beyond that? because it's one thing to come after and criticize and try to delegitimize entities that have investigated you. that is in fact something we've seen before in the hart right in the united states. at the women's republican convention when they got up to scream for spiro agnew, he told them while they were screaming, he told them the justice department was corrupt, he was coming for them, he'd get those lousy rat bastards. of course these guys all criticized the entities investigating them. in the case of spiro agnew when he did get indicted 11 days after the speech, he did resign. he showed up in court as he was commanded. he pled no contest, he resigned like he said he would in his plea agreement. yes, he criticized the legal

system, yes, he threatened. but when the weight of it came down on him, he followed the court's orders, he pled the way he said he would plea. the legal system stayed. the legal system stayed. what happens when the dear leader and his party decide if the legal system is going to be used against the dear leader, then the legal system's got to go? what happens when you take it further, when you take it beyond criticizing the legal system, you take it beyond criticizing those who are investigating you, and you instead decide the system's got to go? we know what what this looks like in other countries. what does it look like here? would anyone try that here in the united states in our era, in our time? well, here's tonight, here's on the front page of the atlanta germ constitution right now as we speak, quote, republicans demand oversight of prosecutors

amid trump probe. here's part of a lead from a reporter, quote, the georgia house tonight approved a measure to create a new state board that could punish or oust district attorneys, the latest step in an ongoing campaign by republicans to exert oversight over prosecutors they see as skirting their duties. the measure passed the house 98-75 today over the objections of democrats and prom independent prosecutors among them fulton county district attorney faunae willis, who's leading an ongoing investigation of donald trump. the georgia senate has passed a similar version of this legislation and the overall effort is backed by both governor brian kemp and lieutenant governor burt jones. i should mention lieutenant governor burt jones in georgia is one of the people who's been

notified by the fulton county he himself is being investigated. the lieutenant governor is facing potential charges himself in that investigation. he and at least one republican state senator who's also facing potential charges in that investigation, turns out they are strong supporters of this new measure that would give republicans in the legislator effectively the power to remove prosecutors they don't like. facing criminal charges, how about you vote yourself the power to fire the person who's going to charge you? the former president himself, donald trump, as of today is urging republicans in georgia that they must pass this legislation, so republicans will have the power to remove prosecutors in middle of their investigations and in the middle

of prosecuting any particular case that republicans might not like for any reason. and to be clear this has now passed the georgia legislature as of tonight. a version of this bill passed the state senate and the republican governor there, brian kemp, he says he'll sign it. he's a strong supporter of this. so they're doing it. and i don't know, maybe this would be easier to see if it were happening in another country. and, you know, maybe the leader of their party is still going to face criminal charges in other jurisdictions where he's under criminal investigation like federally where he's under criminal investigation or new york state where he's under criminal investigation. maybe he will, maybe he won't, but in the one place where he is under criminal investigation and his one paert is in control of the state government they've just decided for the first time in that state pfs history it's now for the first time within their own power to remove

prosecutors in the middle of their duties on their own say so. and yes, this is story about georgia and yes this is a story about trump and the potential charges he's facing, but this whole new stuff for us as a country. this is new thing for us as a democracy. this is not ranting against the investigators. we've seen that before and calling people names and even picking off individuals in the law enforcement system to try to turn them into enemies. as bad all that is, we have seen all that before. this is not just trying to verbally and politically delegitimize the investigating entities. those are all bad things to do, but this is more. stick and stones, right? but this is dismantling the way the legal system works, so presumably it can no longer work against him. this isn't a resolution denouncing a prosecutor who might bring charges against donald trump. this is giving republicans --

this is republicans voting to give themselves the power to remove a prosecutor who acts in a way they do not like as she's on the precipice of potentially bringing charges against him. this passed the georgia state legislature tonight and will soon be on its way to the governor. for georgia, yes, but for us as a country this is bench mark moment. this is new. joining us now is greg bluestein, politics reporter. i know you are a reporter and not a columnist and i'll not ask you to inveigh about this the way i have. first of all, let me just ask you if i'm right right this is kind of done, it's past the senate, it's past the house and likely soon to be signed by the governor.

>> it's not a done deal just yet, but it's still expected to be a done deal within the next couple of weeks and governor kemp is very likely to sign it. >> in terms of the effect this would have, how quickly would something like this go into effect? i know in different states with different types of laws there's different affectuation dates. it may be motivated by effectively trying to remove this prosecutor.

>> they have to setup this panel but certainly it could have an impact very shortly in georgia law. >> was there any discussion about individual members of the legislature or indeed somebody like the lieutenant governor having a conflict of interest, potentially having a self-serving motive in supporting a proposal like this given so many prominent georgia republicans have been notified they are targets for potential prosecution in this one investigation related to the 2020 election. >> that's a good question. it's impossible to disinantal faunae willis and her investigation from this overall debate, but when state republicans bring up these measures they bring up a number of other prosecutors in georgia in hot water for other

grievances. there's a district attorney in athens often invoked because she refuses to enforce low level derog offenses and they believe she's inept and effective as a prosecutor. there's also a white republican from out in west georgia, a former district attorney from a county, an ex-urban county who pleaded guilty to misconduct charges and had to step down, so he's often invoked. they're very careful about not bring up donald trump, but again it's impossible to disinantal him from this entire debate. >> and presumably there are rules and strictures in place in georgia like there are in georgia like every other state to handle issues of prosecutorial overreach. it's not like georgia has an unusual lacuna in its legal system where prosecutors are less comfortable for things they legitimately do wrong compared to other states, right? >> that's exactly right.

district attorneys and other critics note there's also pieces embedded in georgia law when they overstep or not doing their job. i think it was last used in the 1960s. there's the georgia bar. there's the supreme court, there's the judiciary. there's a number of other steps that can be taken before creating this new panel. critics can say, look, there's already parts embedded in georgia law, why aren't we using that? >> greg, thanks very much for helping us understand this. i am surprised this isn't a bigger national story, but it may just be a matter of counting down before people realize the seriousness of what's going on here. thank you for helping us understand it. >> thank you. >> again, the georgia state legislature tonight both the senate and house have now passed legislation that will effectively give republicans in had legislature the power to remove prosecutors that they

don't like who are pursuing cases that they don't appreciate. this happening just as fulton county district attorney faunae willis approaches her own decision about whether or not to recommend indictments against multiple georgia prominent republicanps who have been identified they're potential targets of her investigation and also former president donald trump. we talk about the rule of law and the accountability issues embedded in trump's potential legal liability all the time. this is effectively a dismantling of the judicial system in one state in an effort that seems -- i think it's inarguable and seems designed to dismantle the legal system rather than allow him to be subject to it. we'll be right back. t to it. we'll be right back. with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary.

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in 1970 a 22-year-old woman named judy humam passed the written exam to get a license, an oral exam to get a license but the board of education nevertheless turned her down specifically because she used a wheelchair. she'd gotten polio when she was 18 months old.

she had to spend months in an iron lung, survived polio but then had to use a wheelchair for the rest of her life. and because of that she faced not just challenges, not just difficulty wheres, she faced discrimination because of it. when she was 5 years old her mom tried to sign her up for kindergarten and the principal turned her down saying she would be, quote, a fire hazard and not be allowed to enroll in school. basically the same excuse she got from the board of education as an adult when she tried to become a teacher. in 1970 when they told her you're otherwise qualified but because you use a wheelchair you cannot be a teach, she sued the board of education in new york and she won. she became the first teacher ever who was a wheelchair user and that court fight was the first civil disability case ever brought in court. and she won it.

she knew how to fight and she knew what it took to win even the most difficult fights, and she did it over and over and over again. in 1973 richard nixon had signed a law that said any organization that got federal funding couldn't discriminate against disabled people, and so that meant schools at all levels, that meant hospitals, that meant the government itself, you can't discriminate against disabled people. you have to make accommodations, so people with disabilities can use those facilities, can use those agencies, can get into those buildings and so on. now, that law was signed in 1973, but then when it came to enforcing that law, there needed to be regulations signed and regulations put in place. and when it came to enforcing that law and having those regulations, hospitals and schools complained about having to put in ramps or accessible bathrooms. and so disabled activists

realized this law was in the books, but the regulations implementing the law were not in the books, and it was time for the government to actually do what they said they were going to do, to actually do what the law required them to do, to actually implement this piece of civil rights legislation. and judy humam among them, they started demonstrating at federal buildings all across the country. and they organized demonstrations at the federal agency responsible for these regulations in washington and organized them at the regional offices for the federal agencies all the over the country. the protest organized by judy heumann was in san francisco and that ended up being the longest and peaceful lawful occupation of a building in u.s. history. they didn't have hot water, didn't have beds, many didn't have access to the medicine they needed.

week after week they stayed demanding to be heard, demanding these regulations go in place to implement this civil rights legislation until finally the leaders of the agency agreed to meet with them. and in that meeting judy heumann raised a signal point from another movement in american history. >> i can tell you that every time you raise issues of separate but equal, the outrage of disabled individuals across this country is going to continue. it is going to be ignited. there will be more takeovers of buildings until finally maybe you begin to understand our position. we will no longer allow the government to oppress disabled individuals. we want the law enforced. we want no more segregation. we will accept no more discussion of segregation.

and i would appreciate it if you would stop shaking your head in agreement when i don't think you understand what we are talking about. >> judy heumant taught the world what she and her fellow activists were talking about. their willingness to show up and stay there worked. she knew how to win big, difficult to win fights. that fight in 1977 won this country's first real protections for people with disabilities. and it laid the groundwork for civil rights legislation to come. in 1990 judy heumann was instrumental in getting the americans with disabilities act passed and signed into law. the rehabilitation act nixon signed in 1973 that was about schools and hospitals itself. the ada, american with disabilities act, also extended those same civil rights

protections to private entities, anyone who had a private accommodation. people with disabilities needed to be able to access the things other citizens can access in reasonable accommodation for their needs to do so is a matter of civil rights. judy heumann then serves in government herself ultimately in both the clinton administration and the obama administration. this is from the head of the american association of people with disabilities. quote, judy heumann helped so many people understand their own power as disabled people. more simply as judy heumann put in her own memoir some people say what i did changed the world but really i refused to accept what i was told about what who i could be, and she says, quote, i was willing to make a fuss about it. i was willing to make a fuss about it. words to live by judy heumann

was willing to make that fuss life not just here but in so many other countries is better even for the people she beat in all those fights. it is one thing to fight for your rights but fight for yourself in a way that literally leaves the world better but literally for who you fought and won the argument against and prevailed over in the fight for civil rights. she's often called the mother of disability rights movement. she died this weekend at the age of 75. judith heumann dies at the age of 75. we'll be right back. the age of 75. we'll be right back. ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ before dexcom g6, my diabetes was out of control. i was tired. voltaren. the joy of movement. not having the energy to do the things that i wanted to do.

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you'll remember some of these pictures. 2017 they held rallies on the side of the road. they handed out missing persons signs about senators who refused to show up and answer questions. in one memorable instance someone in a chicken suit led a group of protesters through the chicken dance outside a congressman's office in the rain, which honestly makes everything look way more fun. in the wake of the 2016 election when republicans learned that

they would have control of the house and the senate and they took the white house, a pair of former democratic congressional staffers started up a google doc for strategy in that era. they typed up this kind of instruction manual for how people opposed to what trump and the republicans wanted to do, how those people could most effectively put pressure on congress, and their key insight which i think was new to a lot of people at the time is that your best route to effectively pressuring congress is only pressure your member of congress, whether your member of congress and your senators are good, bad, or somewhere in between you target them because they have to listen to you when you are their constituent. they called that google doc the indivisible guide. tips for how to host a rally like that one on the side of the road is for example on page 20. notes how to interact directly with your member of congress when they won't respond to your

calls. that's on page 21. indivisible ballooned quickly from a guy in a chicken suit to a full-fledged well organized grass roots progressive movement. by the time the trump administration was only a few weeks old there were already more than 7,000 different indivisible groups organized in all 50 states. well, now, it's 2023 and republicans once again have taken control of the house of representatives and that's breathed new life into what launched indivisible back in 2017. now there's an updated guide. like the first one it's very, very nuts and bolts. it's practical, actionable advice. check this out. this was a joint protest held by indivisible members and members of the working party family.

you can see from their signs what they're protesting here are the very, very unpopular republican proposals to cut medicare and cut social security. and what mike wallers constituents are doing here tracks with the advice from the new guide. what to do if you have a new republican member of congress. step one, focus on their unpopular ideas and relentlessly tie them to their least appealing ideas or controversies. the guide goes onto say you should use every opportunity to get your member of congress on the record on those issues. and true to form just as the indivisible guide predicted in response to that protest congressman had to go on the record saying he opposes any cuts to social security and medicare. there it is in black and white. they got him on the record. congressman lawler on the record.

that is a form of progress enshrined to save those programs. indivisible has now in march launched a new campaign targeting 18 republican members of congress including mike lawler who represent districts that president biden won in the 2020 election. so they are republican members, but their district voted for biden. the reason those 18 are being targeted by indivisible in this new campaign is because as practical as ever indivisible believes that's the start of the road for democrats to take back the house in 2024. you start picking off those 18 and you move on from there. the co-founder of inindizvable and joined us from time to time to talk about the progress of this group and how the practical approach to organizing is working in our divided and easily distracted society. ezra, it is nice to see you. thanks for being here. >> great to see you, rachel.

>> was that an appropriate way to describe the trajectory, there's a new indivisible guide in 2023 and sort of about protecting progressive priorities but also trying to orient democrats to take back control of the house as soon as possible. >> rachel, you did such a good job i'm going to struggle to add to it, but i'll try. and that is this -- we really have -- we have a top level goal. i would like to see us retake the house, hold the senate, hold the presidency, reform the filibuster and codify roe. that's my north star and the north star of indivisible individuals across the country. the pathway to victory is where is the low hanging fruit, and it turns out just as you said there are 18 republican members of congress who represent districts

that biden won in 2020, so what do you do in those districts? how do you take on these folks? there's this guy mike lawler who you just covered and i'm going to go out on a limb and say probably 99% of people have not heard of representative mike lawler. they've heard of marjorie taylor greene, matt gaetz. why haven't they heard of lawler and this guy who represents a biden won district knows he's got one path to re-election and that is you've got to raise a whole bunch of money from donors like he was, you've got to vote more or less the way those donors want you to vote. he votes 90% of the time with marjorie taylor greene. and three, this is tricky part, the really tricky part. you've got to convince your constituents you're not one of the bad guys in congress, and so that means keeping your constituents in the dark, trying to not say you vote 94% of the time with marjorie taylor greene. and the good news is sunlight is

the best disinfectant. and constituents based in that 17th congressional district were able to show up and say, hey, you've got to represent us, don't side with marjorie taylor greene. and in this one instance we were able to help limit the harm from this member of congress. now, we're trying to do that in every single one of these 18 districts. sometimes we're going to get them to go on record. sometimes they're going to vote against us. so it's going to depend on constituents in those districts to hold them accountable and make sure there's a political price to pay for their extremism. >> over the past six years you've been involved in this organizing effort which started small and turn into this big thing do you feel there are lessons learned of what works, things you steered more toward because they have had multiplicative effects, they've been more effective than you

thought? >> one thing we say is pictures didn't happen. you can call one of your representatives and they're going to have a staffer take down your message and say we're really concerned with what you have to say. but if that doesn't go anywhere, then there will be no accountability. so seeing what these constituents actually did in the districts to get local attention -- they got local press coverage of their event. they got him on the record. that's what moved him. so as much as possible i do think it is important to lean into public pressure. that's what a member of congress running in the district really cares about. it's one of the reasons why if you go to indivisible.org and check out the resources we've got. if you're in district you can connect with other local groups doing this work and doing the work in realtime. if you're out of district we're working to connect folks out of district tsupport real constituents in the district. so i hope everybody knows it doesn't mean you've got to be in the district to be supportive of this effort.

we think everybody has a role to play, and that's what we're trying to do. we're trying to empower everybody to make sure congress is truly representative. >> co-founder of indivisible as always doing some of the most practical strategic organizing in the country. nice to see you. >> good to see you, rachel. >> we'll be right back. stay with us. you, rachel >> we'll be right back stay with us what's up little bro? ♪♪ i'm not touching you, i'm not touching you! ♪♪ turns out, some wishes do come true. and it turns out the general is a quality insurance company that's been saving people money for nearly 60 years. mom! for a great low rate, and nearly 60 years of quality coverage make the right call and go with the general. (male announcer) important information for viewers age 50 to 85. have you thought0 years about getting life insurance to help your family with funeral expenses, but worried it would cost too much or that you wouldn't qualify?

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