the result of widespread voter fraud. she joins fox luminaries and head honchos this weeks who are for the first time being unmasked by the legal system as whiting liars and showcase of liars about donald trump's claims of fraud. jenna ellis, a lawyer who represented president trump after his lost in the 2020

election admitted in a sworn statement released on wednesday that she had knowingly misrepresented the facts in several of her public claims that widespread voter fraud led to trump's defeat. the admissions by ellis were part of an agreement to accept public censure and settle disciplinary measures brought against her by state bar officials in her home state of colorado. jenna ellis's confession is a far cry from the lies she told to millions. >> president trump is right that there was widespread fraud in this election. we have at least six states that were corrupted if not more through the voting systems. we know that president trump won in a landslide. but we knew he didn't and it turns out so did she. in a statement posted on twitter, jenna ellis claimed that the case against her was politically motivated and ellis and her attorney insist that she remains a practicing attorney in

good standing in colorado. what she admitted to doing, though, damaged democracy and sewed distrust of our election and election workers, putting their lives at risk today still. but closer to home for people like jenna ellis, she amplified trump's most dangerous lies to his own vote that's put trump supporters like stephen heirs smack dead in the middle of a deadly crime scene. here's what he had to say about the disgraced ex-president. >> i was hanging on every word he was saying. everything he put out, i was following it. if i was doing it, hundreds of thousands of millions of other people are doing it or maybe even still doing it. it's like he just said about that, you know, you got people still falling and doing that. who knows what the next election could come out. could be down the same path we

are right now. just don't know. >> who knows? he's right, we're just don't know. and here we are for the crimes against our democracy, for the ten instances jenna ellis has now admitted he slide to people like steven ayres, what's the appropriate punishment for that? and for fox news's crimes against our democracy and sanctity of our elections and election workers, what's the appropriate price for them to pay? dominion suits are a liable case and the laws in america will have the answer. who pays for law enforcement officials injured who were simply going to work that day and doing their jobs, injuries that endure to this day, to this hour, both physically and mentally. who pays for the lies by paul

pelosi's injuries? the question this hour, who makes sure justice is had and that somebody pays for crimes against american democracy? it where we start with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "new york times" political reporter jeremy peters is with us. also joining us, miles taylor, former chief of staff of homeland security and home founder of political party forward. and frank, msnbc national security analyst and mary mccord is with us at the table, a former top official in the justice department's national security division. and since i've started, mary, with this question that ever since -- i'm riveted by jeremy's reporting and the revelations of what really happens at fox news. i talked to fox news' on-air figures today. they both sort of said are you surprised? and i am surprised. i'm shocked. and i don't ever want to lose the capacity to be shocked at

the cynicism. i mean, the truth is tucker carlson is the only person other than steve schmidt that i've heard describe donald trump as demonic. the only difference is steve schmidt does it with his face showing. tucker carlson did it cloaked behind the lies he was telling his viewers and private text messages he never thought we'd see. >> i think that's the key. he never thought we'd see that. i think listening to the lies that tucker carlson promoted and other personalities on fox news, i thought they can't possibly believe these lies, they're too smart for that. but i never thought they would put in writing their own belief that these were lies. and, you know, it shows the lack of foresight to think that there might be accountability at some point and some of that accountability is now coming. and i don't think those are the type of emails and text messages that we're seeing. they're really not any way to explain your way out of those because they're pretty direct, they're pretty concrete. >> let me put up the names of

the board members that sit on top of fox news's board. some of them are known and some are going to be known. i want everyone to take note this. as these document files are public, these are names. rupert murdoch, who everyone knows, lachlan murdoch, william burck, chase carey, anne dias, an e-mail exchange about fox not doing what they need to do to turn down the temperature. and the others, paul ryan was the former republican vice presidential candidate. i wonder, miles taylor, what you think of when you think of these eight board members and what must be going through their minds.

>> reporter: i hate to say, nicole, i think of the words immense moral cowardice. some of these were people that i worked with as trump rose to power and who behind the scenes were very frank and forthright about the danger he posed but said something very different to the american public. what we're talking about goes well beyond the big lie. this goes back many, many years and some of us have been saying it for years and years that these top elected republicans viewed donald trump and viewed the wider maga movement as anti-democratic, as a threat to democracy, as dangerous and said that in private but refused to say it in public. you know, some of us went and blew up our lives to go make that clear and those people were still in denial. some of them are still in denial to this day. but to see some of donald trump's biggest cheerleaders like tucker carlson have the veil moved and to see them behind the scenes actually telling the truth, i don't know what else maga voters need to hear besides that.

i mean, we didn't think the big lie could get any bigger and now it's not just about how fox spread lies about a stolen election, they lied about believing the lie, they lied about supporting the big liar himself and now with jen ellis, we see they lied about believing the lies spread by the lieutenant liars. you almost can't make this up how far it goes. and i think at the end of the day, this has snowballed into the biggest media scandal in history. it has more than media -- it implications and it has warped our democracy quite substantially and resulted in the hijacking of what of two major political parties. >> what should happen over at fox? >> we always say this, nicole, i'm not a lawyer. i always add that caveat. but i've got to think that legally this is the tip of the iceberg. we're talking about something so significant, a network peddling

disinformation at such extraordinary scale, i have to think this are other massive lawsuits here. this is the type of thing that should actually bring down and completely break a news network. fox shouldn't be on the air after this. i don't know how they maintain their rights to the radio spectrum after having engaged in this time of disinformation. but it's pretty serious, and i've got to think and mary knows better than i would that there's other potential civil actions that could be brought against the network given the scale and scope of this. >> you know, a lawyer familiar with the evidence gathered for this libel case so that it is not an unfair body of inquiry to ask about product liability type parallels, about alex jones style, sandy hook libel-type cases, the awards awarded in the sandy hook case, heinous,

heinous, heinous lies told about the most innocent kind of victim you could conjure up in your wildest imagination, hideous lies, but what the jury heard in that case was how completely brazen the lies were that were told and that in the body of evidence, as miles said, that is becoming public, there's much more redacted than there is public at this point. there is an emerging body of evidence that could prove that compelling to a jury. >> so that's an interesting way of looking at it because, you know, the first amendment is interpreted very broadly, including to protect news organizations or organizations that purport to be news organizations. >> and thank goodness. >> yes, for good reason, like you say. that's why the standard in the defamation case that we're seeing now that dominion has brought against fox requires actual malice. that doesn't mean evil intent but it means the lies have to have been intentional, knowing

and/or reckless disregard for the truth. so to expand that to think of that as a means for addressing the harms to individuals, people who listen to those lies, traveled to the white house, you know, participated in the insurrection are facing criminal penalties now. other people whose lives have been torn upside down, that's more attenuated than you see in sandy hook, right? because in sandy hook alex jones was telling lies about the victims and their families. here the lies aren't about these people who have been harmed, the lies are bigger and broader and they're about the election and election fraud, et cetera. so even though there's i think the potential, i think you will see lawyers probably trying this, pushing the envelope on the law here, in addition to the high bar even to make a defamation claim, you also would have this approximate cause issue, right?

did those lies really cause the harm to individuals. and more specifically than the harm to those who are suffering criminal penalties, we're talking about the harm to police officers who were injured and killed and others who were killed. >> if the law is so clearly in favor of a news organization, why did fox let it get to this point? >> well, i mean, that's the $65 million question, right? like it sounds to me that from everything that's come out it was all about $65 million or more than that, all about the green. but why their advertisers don't demand more, why their viewers -- i understand some of their viewers, this is what they want, but surely there must be viewers that they had, you know, even before trump who have seen what has changed over these years and it would be you would think discussed with disinformation. there's also not really a policing mechanism for journalists, right? there's, you know, journalists like to think of the media as

the sort of fourth branch of government, but that requires oversight and accountability in ways that, frankly, aren't really applied to many news organizations. you know, unlike other branches of government where there's checks and balances and there's different means of oversight. you know, this is something where i would like to believe that the market would put more pressure on it but it hasn't. in fact, the pressure the market has put on it is the pressure, it appears, to tell more lies. >> jeremy, you've got some brand new reporting on some of the disclosures this week. i want you to take us through it but i also want to put this out there on the table for you. this is from dominion's opening brief for summary judgment. they talk about a text exchange with dawes asking if they had read sydney powell's lawsuit and it says they have. dominion seems to be

strategically dotting all of these with fox's knowledge of the falsity of the claim. let me tell you what was said three days after. here's the e-mail. producer john fawcett had texted lou dobbs and asked if he had read powell's lawsuit and dobbs confirmed it was complete bs. and here's what happens three days after acknowledging receipt of something he describes as, quote, complete bs on his program. >> let me start by just saying this time is yours. right now this audience, most of america wants to know where are we in this fight for the white house? >> well, we are making great progress, lou. we have one case in the court in

georgia that's getting ready to go to the 11th circuit. we're going to ask for emergency review of that where we sought to impound all the voting machines in georgia and we need frankly the stuff of the election that's supposed to happen in january because all the machines are infected with the software code that allows dominion to shave votes for one candidate and give them to another. >> so what lou dobbs thought of that lawsuit that she's there talking about, jeremy, is that it was, quote, complete b.s. that's where fox is right now. >> and what we know, as we've talked about before, nicole, is they have an e-mail from the source that sidney powell supposedly relied on for that information, a woman who said that she talked to the wind, that she has spoken to ghosts and that is, you know, to your

previous contributor's point, it's not just enough to lie, right? you have to prove that fox was reckless in putting these people on the air. and i can't imagine something more reckless than knowing that a source that you were quoting, that you were interviewing, that you were putting on the air in front of millions of people was a delusional nut case who thought that she spoke to the wind. maria bartiroma knew that. if i e-mailed your producers and said i'm going to come on the air and have spoken to a woman who said she speaks to the wind, do you think you would have me on? >> no, i wouldn't have you on if you talked to the wind. that is i can say clearly at

4:16 today that my standard is that if i had knowledge that you talked to the wind and then were going to come on my show and tell me what the person or what you heard from the wind, i would cancel you. yes, that is how it normally works. it's very helpful, jeremy. >> i try not to talk to the wind. i try to have more credible sources. >> i might start. jeremy, let me ask you because you've gone through all of the fox material and we should also say your reporting makes this clear. the things that are redacted, 98% of them, because fox wants it redacted. they know what they e-mailed and texted to one another. they know what was going on. tell me the picture that gets filled in this week and what you are still waiting and watching for. >> so "the new york times" and another of other news organizations have challenged the redactions in court saying that there's just way too much that's been blacked out here.

there's no reason that we should see so many blank pages. and, you know, that's up to the judge. i can't decide that. i don't know what will come out. but what i will say and what people have told me is if we already have text messages from tucker carlson, from rupert murdoch saying the things that they are on record saying and we know how bad this is, just imagine what else we could possibly see. i mean, tucker carlson has revealed himself to be the like most extreme version of what we kind of knew trump maga supporters to always be, right? they latch on to donald trump and they didn't believe in him. they thought he was a fraud, they thought he was a phony and they, quote unquote, hated him. tucker carlson is on record

saying i hate donald trump passionately. as i've told you before in my book when i reported this stuff about tucker's hate for trump, he told people he was voting for kanye west. that's the level of despair and disdain they have for donald trump but he's also their ticket to relevance and profit. and as long as he is the center of the republican party, which he remains to this day, i don't see their sucking up to him changing. >> yeah, i mean, frank, let me bring you in on this, though. because it's not sucking up to him in a vacuum. it is broadcasting lies that jenna ellis has now admitted in ten instances were wittingly told lies and it's putting known liars -- this is lou dobbs'

producer, not lou dobbs who described it as, quote, complete b.s., on the airwaves, not in a vacuum but so that millions and millions and millions hear it, travel to washington, d.c., break windows, smash the heads of law enforcement officials, tase them, threaten to kill them with their own weapons and poop in the offices of nancy pelosi. they didn't broadcast lies because they were afraid of losing viewers to news, max, they broadcast lies for people to go on to commit heinous acts. >> yeah, we can now draw a straight line between a major network in america and outright violence, to include violence aimed at overthrowing a lawful election. so now you asked the question at the start of the program, now what? where is the accountability? what happens? you asked what should happen.

let me quickly offer what i would like to see happen and then what i think and am more concerned will actually happen. what i'd like to see happen is that rupert murdoch, who is answering quite remarkably truthfully in these filings, right, yep, nope, we lied, they all lied. should you keep notes about the dominion. nope. head scratching. why would you do that? he's going to hang some hose out to dry and say they were outside the scope of employment and if you got any damages to pay, those guys are going to pay them out of their pocket and they're bankrupt and gone. what is my concern is going to happen? people say why didn't they just settle? are they going to go to trial? i think they want to go to trial and they're not settling because

they can't change their business model. they can't. and if they go we're sorry, we'll never do this again, we can't lie anymore and entertain people. they're going to say like they say in 2020 in the karen mcdougal lawsuit, we are rhetoric and hyperbole and the judge agreed. i think that's where this is going and we're concerned about that. >> no one is going anywhere. there's more new information released that we're going to digest before the smartest people you will ever see on television together. i also want to dig in to the jenna ellis confession, if you will. i should add there may be more new stuff that comes down while we're on the air. we're waiting for more developments, more things to come out, not just what jeremy is talking about but more could be unredacted at any moment. >> and house democrats are calling out republicans for their inability or unwillingness

to publicly take a stand against extremist rhetoric, another sign of their silent acceptance or acquiescence, including some lawmakers who have experienced the violence firsthand and still refuse to say anything. and later in the program, the fight to protect abortion access in america. we'll talk with one. women who is suing the state of texas for denying her emergency care when she needed it most. heart breaking and brave stories being told by women to help all women in america. a special show today, don't go anywhere. go anywhere

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all starts with a big lie, donald trump's big lie. they say, well, who knows, maybe he won, maybe he didn't. you say joe biden's president, we say donald trump's president. nonsense! 60 federal and state courts rejected every claim of electoral fraud and corruption that they put forward. 60 federal and state courts rejected every claim. they don't have a single court that ever ruled in their favor. we have to disbelieve the evidence of our own eyes, of our own ears. we saw them come and descend upon this chamber, this congress, wounding and injuring 150 of our police officers, breaking people's noses, breaking people's fingers, putting people in the hospital. and already they're back on the news with big lies saying, no,

no, no, it was a tourist visit. like these real tourists up here who have to come and watch representatives in the united states congress say there's no difference between truth and lies. jamie raskin is american democracy's spirit animal. that was him on the house floor yesterday. i'm sorry we missed it. i think it was happening as we came on the air. i will find an excuse to play it every day. 1/6 isn't over by any stretch. the only reason we have any information about how maniacal the lies were is because the voting machines have more rights than american democracy it would appear. will there be more accountability, do you think, in the criminal justice system? >> well, we're all waiting on jack smith's investigation, but we know he's busy, right? we keep hearing about new subpoenas and new appeals that

he's bringing to the chief judge in the district court in the district of columbia when the people he subpoenas refuse to testify. so he's pushing hard. i don't think we can really guess about what the indictments will look like or who they'll be against or, you know, the question everyone has, will trump be one of those who gets indicted. i think there will be indictments and charges. but, you know, the criminal tools are still just one tool and they're not going to get at some of the things we've been talking about today. they may get some of the lawyers but they're not necessarily going to get at all of the lawyers. and we've seen jenna ellis facing consequences but it was fairly minute map, i think it was a reprimand by the bar association. that doesn't do anything to compensate for the real harms, the 150 police officers that

congressman raskin just mentioned. >> this is the jenna ellis news. she becomes the latest to admit the lies are lies, something that we all saw with our own eyes. as she said, the only reason she acknowledged lying was to retain her colorado state law license. what do you make of the -- i don't know, i don't want to call it -- well, it is slow, the slow pace of accountability for the lawyers who put in place the legal architecture for the big lie? >> i think even that is generous, nicole. i think the jenna ellis case is a case study in cravenness. we've seen someone who represents a lot of things we've seen during the trump years, knows something is wrong, lies about it, says they're doing it for love of country of but really they're doing it for love of self. this is the same as the person who protects their hide on the

playground by saddling up to the bully. but in this case the bully didn't want to rough kids up, the bully wanted to take the world's oldest democratic republic and throw it on top of a bonfire and torch it. and i really think that is the apex of cravinness. it's not just about one person. i think this whole fox news scandal, the big lie scandal and the people who continue to perpetuate the lie are an extraordinary microcosm of our society. you asked why hasn't there been consequences and accountability? part of it is because we are so far into our echo chambers that fox's own viewers don't see any need for accountability. i mean, why isn't paul ryan running from his board seat and quitting his job? that's because paul ryan isn't feeling any pressure from the fox news crowd and that audience to leave. i think that political polarization is very dangerous. it goes to what franks is saying

earlier, which is there are national security and public safety implications to this level of division in our society. >> i mean, frank, keeping with miles' argue minute, there is at least one board member whose name has already stood out in the dominion filings, her name is ann diaz. he e-mailed ruper murdoch. on january 11th, 2021, fox court board member anne dias told rupert and lack lan that considering how important fox news has been as a megaphone for donald trump directly or indirectly, i believe the time has come for you, lachlan to take a stance. it is an existential moment for the nation and for fox news as a brand. rupert murdoch tell her just

tell her we've been talking internally and intensely along these lines and for news news, which called the election krek9 correctly is pivoting as fast as possible. rupert murdoch asserted the pill pillow guy was on not because he was blue or red but because he was green. >> fox news didn't pivot. they did a 360 and, right back where they started. you can say it's gotten worse this week with tucker carlson spinning wildly the january 6th capitol footage. this issue of accountability and you brought up board membership. that seems to have been a board member asking a valid question but, you know, i'd like to see individual board members also the subject of civil lawsuits for failing in their fiduciary responsibility to oversee

properly. you got to hurt people where they get hurt, not where some corporate entity can let it wash off their financial back but rather hurt them personally. that's where i think some really good lawsuits was raised earlier, some additional lawsuits could come out of the remarkable findings in these filings. for example, on the topic of what i'd like to see, how about the family of ashley babbott, the woman killed inside the capitol because she bought hook, line and sinker and thought it was okay to violently overturn an election. what if they were able to show she consumed voraciously, fox, the three hosts in the evening, tucker carlson and others, what if we could see some even light causal factor there. what if they sued based on what they're seeing about the lies,

admissions to lies that were perpetrated on their family member that actually eventually led to her actions and her death. that's the kind of thing that i'd like to see happening. >> mary? >> well, you know, i do think there probably will be evidence of some causal links there, just because so many of these people consumed fox news and also consumed an enormous amount of social media, also spinning conspiracy theories and lies. and i do think we will see some creative lawyering maybe pushing the envelope on tort law, but that's the basis for civil liability, right, and it has rules and it does require causation and it also, you know, when things get to attenuated, that's where sometimes you can't see relief. and i also just listened to us talk about fox news and their responsibility, just brings me back to where we were a couple of weeks ago talking about the supreme court case of gonzalez v. google. when we're talking about bearing

responsibility i think our big companies and tech companies bear some responsibility but at least right now they're in a different place than fox news because of section 230 of the communications decency act, which generally bars, you know, any lawsuits against them for the harms caused by the content on their platforms. and it just makes me think about the inadequacies right now about our systems, the same platforms, whether it's cable news or social media or other internet platforms, which are being used to radicalize and the radicalization is happening because of business decisions made by companies to make money, to make profit because that's what drives these algorithmic on media and that's what drove fox news. our legal systems right now have not adequately adjusted to be able to have accountability to what they inject in to our -- >> tom cotton was interested

yesterday in hearing about the threats from al qaeda and isis and seemingly in disbelief that the greatest threat was racialally and ethnically motivated extremism. if it was inverted and the threat were isis and al qaeda, do you think we would hold networks and internet companies alive. >> i think if there were any lies on fox news -- >> or any network. >> any network. i think you would see where people were directly harmed. the case in the supreme court is the victim of an isis terrorist attack in paris who is bring that lawsuit and it doesn't matter if the law applies the way that google and other social media companies say that it should apply. >> jeremy, let me give you the last word. let me put up the board one more time for you and ask if you have

any indication that this is a group that's hanging as solid and tight as the fox news personnel seem to, with the exception of the now departed bill salmon, whose story suggests that he was ousted after getting that call right. is this a board made up of people and anne dias sending an e-mail today? >> jacques nasser, the ceo of ford motor company, paul ryan is close with lachlan and he is the seemingly the voice of reason now pushing them to do what they didn't do. i think unless they see a dip in their ratings, unless they see a

real kind of financial pain here, they're not going to do much. that's the bottom line to me. i hate to be so cynical about it, but i think there's very little financial reason for them to do much unless their bottom line is hurting. and right now it's not. i don't know that fox viewers know anything about what we're discussing right now. i don't know how, like, carefully they're -- >> it's so true. it's funny because it's so crazy but, yeah. you're right. i'm guessing that the board members do because it seems from the dominion filings that they've all been deposed. it is a fantastic sort of reality check to end on. jeremy peters, you and you, miles, are invaluable to these conversations. frank and mary are sticking around a little longer. next for us, we head to capitol hill where republicans again

seem uneager or unwilling to denounce the growing rise of white nationalism and white supremacy in america. we want to give you an update on minority leader mitch mcconnell. we understand he's still in the hospital being treated for a concussion. it's reported he's expected to remain in the hospital for a few days for observation and treatment. here is to the senator's health and the good work of our nation's doctors and medical professionals who are taking care of him. we will be right back. there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. and here. not so much here. if you've been diagnosed with chronic kidney disease farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar.

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my analysis of my friends on the other side's defense of an open border is that anyone who would suggest we need to secure our border is a racist or a white supremacist. >> no one has said that and i disavow and denounce and renounce that sentiment. there are legitimate differences that people have about this. my only point about it, mr. chairman, with your indulgence is that people are getting killed because of the great replacement theory. this would be great if people would just say we don't believe that and we would like to turn down the temperature on this and work together for meaningful solutions. >> it will should have been a political lay out for the republicans on the house oversight committee. all they had to do was either what congressman raskin suggested or the bare minimum, a statement, something, anything,

to separate themselves from what congressman raskin's talking about there, this thing that is getting people killed, the great replacement theory. it's an abhorrent lie reverberating around right-wing media. it's even made an appearance on, you guessed it, tucker carlson's show. it contends that non-white immigrants are somehow being brought into the united states with the ulterior motive of replacing the right population in america. grand conspiracy. so this week congressman jamie raskin sent a letter to the chairman. that was the guy you saw speaking first, the chairman james comber. quote, as chairman, you have another opportunity to take a public stand against the deliberate amplification of dangerous, racist rhetoric that has had deadly consequences in this country. that is why i am renewing my request for you and committee republicans to join committee democrats with one voice to

unequivocally denounce white nationalism and white supremacy. guess what happened next? last hour a spokesman for the republicans agreed to sign on to raskin's pledge, turning the focus back to illegal immigrants. mary, this is a true thing. i mean, the massacre in buffalo was driven by an assassin, a murderer there who believed in the great replacement theory. there have been other mass shootings in america where they adhered to this theory. how are we in a place in america where we can't agree that the great replacement theory shouldn't be condemned. >> it's not a new theory, it has

deep roots but what we've not seen in the past are elected officials who not only are unwilling to, you know, denounce it but also we've seen them actually talking about it. we've seen news personalities talking about it as though it is a true phenomenon or a true theory. and so that has the impact of normalizing the theory, which then leads consumers of information that congress members are speaking about, information on cable news, information on social media, leaves those consumers to think this is now an accepted political view. >> a permission structure is created in the political lexicon and the media either leads that or follows that. that's a longer debate. tucker carlson is one of the media personalities who talk about it at length to audiences that lap it up. and then you see the mass

shooters and if that doesn't break the cycle of the new development. >> there does not seem to be a red line for officials now if you're not willing to go out and say we denounce while supremacy, christian nationalism and the great replacement theory. even if they don't want to sign the democrats' pledge, do your own thing, make your own statement. we're at a point where we need leadership in this country to kind of right the ship and that needs to come on a bipartisan basis. because so long as the divide is all the democrats sign and all the republicans refuse to sign, that keeps percolating throughout the country and that's probably why we're in the time we're in with increased anti-political violence and frank's point and something i talk about, it's not just our other internal public safety

threat, it's a national security threat. >> frank, i can't imagine that anybody in the fbi really wants to be out there speaking about the threat posed to americans about domestic violent extremism or by white supremacy or white nationalism or those who peddle the great replacement theory. if they were, i'm not sure that they would have done an interview with fox's brett behr. if your view, is there something they can do for people's support they still want and seek and say you make our job more infinitely difficult when you don't condemn the things that radicalize the people that seek to do harm. >> the facts have to win the day

and data is there. remember chris wray's testimony on the hill by far in the bucket of domestic violent extremism, by far it's the race-based violence that is the most lethal. it kills people. and so the data has to win the day. but, again, the very notion that they're concerned about spouting that and saying that is because of the beat downs they continually get whenever they do it, but the facts have to win the day. >> frank and mary, thank you so much for being with us and having this conversation with us. another quick break. we'll be right back.

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let's bring in jared of the member of the house oversight committee. we showed some footage of the plea with congressman comer to simpy agree to denounce the replacement theory, to try to turn down the heat in some of extremists that represent the greatest threat to all americans. what's your sense of wherer we are if that's not possible? i understand republicans have signed on. >> thanks. it's a great question. here's where we are. i have a feeling that if you get a the lot of our colleagues in a dark corner and the cameras and social media are off, they will give you the real opinion. they will probably agree, but the problem is the part they are

not saying out loud is these are their voters. that's why they are not willing to be public about it. we have an amendment in committee that all the amendments said that federal employees would be able to deal with neo-nazi speech on social media. 100% of the republicans on the oversight committee voted against that. they don't want federal employees to be able to deal with neo-nazis on social media. that's because they aren't voting for joe biden. so the republicans are not willing to challenge voters. that's what's happening. >> in the context of everything we're learning about fox news and this willful peddling of lies to viewers, which you can presume some of the fox viewers also these members voters. does it dawn on anyone that no one wants to sofl the chicken and the egg. maybe the reason you can't be tough on neo-nazis is because no one is willing to lead. do those krgss ever happen? >> no, they admit it out loud

like when the cam cameras aren't on. the big lie, the big lie is that he's literally lying to all of his viewers. he's giing them what he thinks they want to hear while sat the same time, he's sending e-mails and text messages to sean hannity saying he hates donald trump passionately. what you saw in this case with dominion is you saw a window into actually the conversations that happen here in congress every single day. when the cameras are off and when social media is not paying attention, there's a lot more agreement on what the right thing is. they are not willing to challenge voters. they are not willing to lead. >> where does that leave american democracy? >> you saw it lately in the senate. mitch mcconnell and other republican senators coming out

hammering fox for the lies that are being told about what happened on january 6th. so i don't want to say it's all doom and gloom. there are bright spots here. we can't ignore the fact that the conspiracy theories that are on social media that get spoon fed to people are no doubt hurting our ability to work together as a country, not just here this congress, but in state legislatures, in commission hall, school boards and so we just have to continue to fight. we have to continue to tell the truth. the truth is the truth. the facts are on our side. and we just have to continue to be vocal and stand up and not let them -- we have to make sure we fill the vacuum because if we're not willing the vacuum, they are filling it with nonsense. >> perfect last word. i'm really glad you had time to talk to us today. we're grateful. thank you. >> thank you. up next for us, we'll talk with one of the women suing the

state of texas over abortion access denying women in the state life-saving health care. a really important conversation. don't go anywhere. a really impo. don't go anywhere. okay i did it. is he looking at my hairline? my joint pain isn't too bad. well, it wasn't this morning. i hope i can get through this. is plaque psoriasis or psoriatic arthritis making you rethink your everyday choices? otezla is a pill, not a cream or injection that can help people with plaque psoriasis achieve clearer skin. otezla is also proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain in psoriatic arthritis. and no routine blood tests required. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. doctors have been prescribing otezla for over 8 years. i'm so glad i made it through the day. ♪

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california does not cower to extremists. we call them out. if walgreens. s to make this decision, california will make its decision, which is not to do business with companies that don't share our values and restrict people's sablt to get health care. i support the governor here. and as a consumer, most women do most of the shopping for everyday items like grocery

stores, as a woman i'm going to be going in a different store and picking up a cart somewhere else other than walgreens going forward. >> hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. that was katie porter of california coming out strong against walgreens last night following the latest move by her governor to not renew its $54 million contract with the drugstore chain. newsom is's decision was in pons to walgreens announcing it will not dispense medical abortion pill, even in states where abortion is still legal. bending to pressure the company received from nearly two dozen republican attorneys general. walgreens has sought to clarify saying it will sell the pills where it's legally permissible once it gets certified from the fda to do so. . the damage has been done. newsom was very clear in seeing that california will not cave to extremists when it comes to women's reproductive health care. despite the majorty of americans

believing that abortion should be legal in america after the supreme court overturned roe, republicans have continued their efforts to pass radical abortion restrictions and ban through state legislatures. like the ban in texas, which this week saw its first legal challenge. five women are speaking out. they are suing the state of texas for denying them the care they say they needed when their pregnancies endangered their lives. from that lawsuit, quote, abortion bans are hindering or delaying necessary obstetric care contrary to their purpose of further life, the bans are exposing pregnant people to the risks of death, injury and illness, including loss of fertility making it less likely that every family that wants to bring children into the world will be able to survive the experience. medical professionals are now

telling their patients that if they want to become pregnant, they should leave texas. vice president harris voiced her support of this lawsuit write ing, quote, many extremist leaders of tropical storm for all while directly attacking the freedom to make one own's decisions. like the overwhelming majority of more thanes, the president and i believe women in consultation with their doctors should be in charge of their reproductive health care, not to politicians. take a listen to some of the sering and heartbreaking is and scary stories from the plaintiffs in this new case. >> i asked what could be done. and what could protect me from a deadly infection now that my body was unprotected and vulnerable it was anguished as they explained there was nothing they could do because of the antiabortion laws. i cannot adequately put into words the trauma and despair that comes with waiting to

either lose your own life, your child's life or both. for days, i was locked in this bizarre and avoidable hel. sglif lost one baby already. and if the texas legislature had gotten their way, it makes it less likely that i and the baby i'm about to bring in this world would be standing here today. >> what i needed most in that moment was a choice that texas lawmakers robbed me of. >> these extraordinary women speaking about some of the most frightening and painful moments of their lives all with the purpose of serving all women in our country is where we begin the hour. joining us we are so grateful that one of the women we just heard from in that clip, a plaintiff in the abortion ban lawsuit, has joined us. also with us is nancy, president

and ceo of the center for reproductive rights, the center is representing all five of the women in the lawsuit. barbara mcquaid is here. reverend kim is here, senior opinion where you are for the "boston globe." barbara and kim are msnbc contributors. the floor is yours. i have to ask you how you're doing this. how are you able to talk about this, which is for most women who have been through anything like your journey, the most painful and traumatic event of their lives. >> thank you for having me. when i can tell you is it's not getting easier. i had to really keep it together even just watching the recap of the press conference that i was just at. but it's something that i feel very passionate about and it's

something that i think really needs to be done. the more vocal i am, and the more outspoken i am, the more i hear from other women who have been through something very similar. or they are afraid they are going to go through something similar or terrified to get pregnant. it's not just women. it's men too reaching out. it's not just texans. it's feedback from across the country, across the globe sometimes. it's the important stories that are told every of time i get a message from someone thanking me or encouraging me, it just gives me the strength and sport that i need to keep going. >> let me thank you. let me do what i can to encourage you. you have all the time you want, but come up with a signal when you want to pass it around or when it's too much. just let us know.

because i think that what you're doing is extraordinary. i also know it's incredibly painful. so if you're able to or willing, will you tell us your story? >> absolutely. my husband and i had been trying to get pregnant for about a year and a half. it was a long journey. i know a lot of women know lots of tests and procedures and medications, a couple misdiagnosis along the way. finally after about a year and a half and a lot of help, i was pregnant last spring and was just over the moon. we were overjoyed. the first trimester went pretty well. and then sort of out of in where, things went south very quickly. and contacted mutt my doctor and she had me come in right away. she knew from my symptoms what i was experiencing was not good.

after she examined me, she told me that i had a condition called cervical insufficiency. what that means is my body was dilating way too early. i was one day shy of 18 weeks. very shortly after, my water broke. i lost all of my amniotic fluid. my membranes ruptured as well. so she and several other doctors that we consulted informed us that we were going to lose the baby with absolute certainty. but rather than being able to intervene and provide health care at that point, the abortion bans restricted my health care team from providing think sort of help. so we just had to wait until either the baby's heart stopped beating or i got so sick that the ethics board at the hospital

would consider my life at risk. at that point, finally, our health care team could step in had and help. for me, it took about three days and going septic before i could get any help. >> can you share what a that diagnosises of being septic was like? it's a really scary thing. >> it was very scary. i honestly was so sick and so out of it i didn't even fully understand what was happening to me. i think for mutt husband, it was probably even scarier because he could see how quickly i deteriorated. he saw how sick i was he asked me on a scale from 1 to 10, i didn't know the difference between 1 and 10. i couldn't answer the question. thinking back on that time, what it looked like for me, i have a

supportive husband who works from home, and i have a very supportive work environment. so we were able to get to the hospital when i needed to. i don't have other kids that i needed to find child care for. so i think about all of these other people who could be in a similar situation and not be as, quote, unquote, lucky as i was. maybe they wouldn't have somebody to take them to the hospital or wouldn't have somebody to watch their kids. what's going to happen to those people. i think we know the answer. that's exactly why i continue to speak out because like i said, as bizarre as it sounds, i was lucky. >> you lost your baby and then your husband lost his baby too and was scared about losing you. how many people do you think have is walked in your shoes that we don't know object or may never hear about?

>> countless. any time speak out or there's a headline or any sort of awareness, i hear from dozens, if if not hundreds of folks. like said, men and women across the country, a across the globe who either have had a similar experience or know somebody that has. i think what we're seeing today in texas and with our lawsuit is just the very the tip of the iceberg. >> what do you want to happen? it you could go back and have is had had different conversations when you knew you were going to lose this baby, you want theed so desperately that you spent a year and a half trying to get pregnant with, what should have happened? sort of a normal, civilized situation, when you're that sick and your pregnancy is that in peril, what should have happened? are doctors able to articulate

what these bans what should have happened is? >> what they should have been able to do is provide health care and intervention immediately. i needed an abortion. and an abortion would have provided respectful passing of my daughter. it would have allowed me to begin the grieving process with dignity. one of my fellow plaintiffs made that statement at the press conference. she's exactly right. we are robbed of dignity in these situations. rather than being able to begin that grieving process at home and with my husband and my family, i had to wait and live in this trauma and despair for days. then moving beyond that, we still don't know the extent that it's going to have on my fertility and my ability to have biological kids in the future. so not only has the state and

their bans robbed me of respect and dignity, but potentially they have robbed me of the ability to carry my own children. so for folk who is say that these restrictions are pro life, i don't think there's anything pro life about them. it was not pro life for my baby, for me or my future chern. >> politicians that champion these laws aren't universally male, but they are universally republican. what would you say to them if erp alone outside the acrimony of our damaged and broken politics? what would you want them to know? >> i think first and foremost, i want them to understand that abortion is health care, plain and simple. and in some cases like we're seeing in this lawsuit, it's life-saving health care. whether it's the horror or the in the case of my fellow plaintiff, for one of her two

twins. she needed an abortion of one to save the life of the other. and it's just standard health care that all americans should have the right to access. i think secondly, i would like people to understand that the word abortion has become so stigmatized. the people who have been stigmatized as those who needs or want or seek abortions is not necessarily always the case. we are five women who represent a much larger swath of the country, and we all desperately want children, and yet we found ourselves in a position where we needed abortions. so the stigma that comes along with that word, i think, is just something that needs to be reevaluated because it's been so politicized and, frankly, all it's doing is harming our basic human rights. >> i know what you mean. abortion gets lumped in with the people who are sort of on the

other side of pro life. and for you, you couldn't have been more pro the life you were carrying until you lost that life and endangered your life. what is your -- how do we change that and take the work back and make clear that it is a much more nuanced conversation that the person who wanted your baby most was the person who needed the abortion most. >> it's a good question. i think it's just going to take more of what we're doing right now. people like me and my fellow plaintiffs who are speaking out, people like you who are giving space to the story, people like my friends at the center for reproductive right who is are helping us tell our stories, the many hr that we put a face to this cause, people will understand that we're real people and these are the implications that the restrictions are having. i'm hopeful that the more we speak out and the less we

stigmatize the word abortion, more people will feel comfortable and will feel empowered to speak out as well. right now, people are still scared. and i think we need to help give that empowerment and that courage so that those who are afraid to tell their stories feel empowered to do so. >> are you scared to be pregnant again, if you're able to get pregnant again, in texas? >> yeah. i'm terrified. the condition that i had with my daughter, we know that i'm more likely for that to happen again. nothing this texas has changed. so who's to say the same thing wouldn't happen to me. and next time maybe wouldn't be as, quote, unquote, lucky. >> i don't know if it's happening in texas, but there are republicans trying to criminalize the act of leaving to seek health care, if you're a

pregnant woman. willow was your daughter's name? what can we do for willow ask for you? i think everyone watching would want to do something. it z there anything we can do for you or her? >> that's really kind of you to ask. thank you. i think just continuing to listen to the conversation be be part of the conversation and be open minded and be respectful of those who are telling their stories so we can encourage more to do so. i personally have gotten a lot of support and i want every single person who has reached out to me to know how much it means to me. and that's what all women and pregnant people in my position need is support and opt open mindedness. >> don't know if you need to hear this, but it's what deserve, it's what you deserve

as a woman, as a texan, as a family, that's what your daughter deserved. i'm beyond grateful to you. i don't know where the courage comes from to be able to speak. i imagine it has something to do with willow. i want to offer you a last word if there's anything else you want to say. >> just thank you so much for having me and for continuing to tell these stories. i'm really grateful to you and to your colleagues for making space for us. >> we're grateful to you. thank you so much. you always have a place here. we'll follow this lawsuit very closely and bring in the rest of the panel after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere. es through the pandemic, getrefunds.com can see if it may qualify for a payroll tax refund of up to $26,000 per employee, even if it received ppp, and all it takes is eight minutes to get started. then we'll work with you to fill out your forms and submit the application; that easy. and if your business doesn't get paid, we don't get paid.

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we are joined now by nancy, the center of reproductive rights, which is representing amanda and the other four women suing texas over that abortion ban. also with us is barbara mcquaid is and kim atkins. nancy, with willow and amanda in mind, nobody wanted willow on this planet more than ayman did and her husband.manda and her husband. there's a lot of amandas who have broken their family's hearts. that's what this is about. i wonder how we got here. where she has to come on tv and tell her story with the hope of changing a law that's already hurting other women like her. >> we got here, unfortunately, because of a 50-year campaign to reverse roe v. wade.

and a 50-year campaign to stigmatize access to abortio care, which is health care. the campaign to take this decision out of the hands of women and other pregnant people. and it's really important for people to understand when you criminalize abortion care and texas has three abortion bans in place. it's trigger ban. that vigilante law, it was in effect even before the dobbs case. and it has penalties up to 99 years in prison. when you try to practice medicine, you have to decide whether your judgment is going to be subjected to a life prison term, that is no way to practice medicine it's really important. you showed at the beginning of the hour that the vast majority of people in this united states support access to abortion care for everyone. and these cases show what

happened when you make abortion a crime. it makes every pregnancy complication potentially a crime scene. >> nancy, i want to do two things. i'm going to pull up the poll numbers. upwards of a majority of americans, majority of republicans oppose the bans that are being pushed by republicans. in idaho, what you're describing is already happening. an a doctor is leaving the state because of the restrictions. they said this, quote, they have talked about the possibility that both of them could end up in jail or face multiple lawsuits with potentially massive civil penalties or lose their medical licenses. what happens if both of us are in jail for two years? who is raising our kids. we have a plan for our kids if that happened.

i don't know that people who look at the country and try to predict whether the dobbs decision has worn off ahead of the midterms understand the fresh hell that is being pregnant in america, that is being pregnant with the complicated pregnancy in america, that is being septic from the complicated pregnancy in america, that is being any one of the doctors that wants to help these women. how do you sustain this country's attention on what is happening every single day in this country? >> think it is very important to sustain the attention. we really appreciate you're bringing attention to it in your program this evening. the reality is we saw those numbers, the vast majority of people support access to abortion care. and the reality is that we're going to continue to see more and more stories like this coming forward because we are in early days still of the dobbs

decision. still in early days of this taking away of the 50-year right by the supreme court. so people are going to have friends, colleagues, partners, parents, other people who are going through these situations. whatever their situation is with the pregnancy, these happen to be with extreme pregnancy complications. but 1 in 4 women in their lifetime in the united states will make a decision to end a pregnancy. this isn't going to change because of the criminalization. it was going to change because of the criminalization is that they are going to be at risk, doctors are at risk, people who love them are going to be at risk. but the decision to end a pregnancy is made every day in the united states and around the world whether it's legal or not legal. that doesn't change people's minds about knowing best for themselves and their well being. >> can you take us through the

next steps for the lawsuit? >> sure. what we have in this lawsuit, we have said that the state of texas needs to clarify that a doctor can use their good faith medical judgment about whether a patient is an emergent condition this needs to have abortion care. this can't be something that the state legislature is deciding or they have to fear a penalty. they have to be able to use their best case medical judgment based on their experience, their knowledge and individual pausht before them. anyone who has been pregnant knows that every pregnancy is different. every patient is different. that's what we're asking for a ruling by the court that the medical exception in the texas abortion bans means that doctors good faith judgment. they can practice medicine, not looking over their shoulder at the prosecutor behind them. >> that is not just anecdotally,

but bourn out by the evidence that women are experiencing. the fear of criminal consequences for providing health care has paralyzed ob/gyns in america. >> i think it's no surprise. i think that's a big purpose of the law, to create that chilling effect that doctors who just don't want to risk being criminally prosecuted will stop performing abortions. we saw that almost immediately when texas passed its law. so that's part of the strategy. it's part of what leaves many doctors feeling helpless and many pregnant people without recourse. some have the ability to travel out of state to get help. not everybody has that ability. either they can't afford it or the situation is so emergent they don't have the time or ability to get out of state. so it's really a travesty that we are seeing wrougt upon pregnant people in america. you often wonder what will this moment look lick in history.

i imagine we're living through one of the ugly moments in history that we'll one day say what on earth were they thinking. >> what they were thinking, to nancy's first point, the architecture of republican politics was to bring us to this moment, to engage the lives of women, not to be pro health, but to be pro one life over the other. the supreme court is right now a political dead weight that is so toxic, even donald trump is warning republicans they have gone too far. it doesn't do anything to help amanda. it doesn't do anything to help women living in post roe america right now. all the energy on the republican side policy wise for restrictive bans opposed by 86% of all americans. but the politics are horrendous. what is your take on this moment and whether this lawsuit changes?

>> this lut can continue to bring light to the idea that this is making health care more dangerous for people. there's a narrative of this idea that boorgss are being performed by people who are irresponsible, and using it as birth control. to put people in danger the way we have been talking about this whole time. you have a specific segment of their conservative base who for them, this is a knob nonstarter. you have to push these types of policies, particularly if you're someone who the wants to make a

bid for national office. donald trump might be saying things are going to for now, but he was the person who essentially put a conservative in charge of appointing judges throughout his min entire administration, which is how we got here that's how we're seeing them follow suit. until these politicians can take the blunders off and not let ambition get in the way of the lives of the actual constituents, i don't see it ending. >> whatever happens in our politics, it won't do anything for a woman pregnant right now in need of this kind of health caring. i want to ask you the same question. the same i had for amanda. what can we do? what can people do? >> one of most important things since the majority, as keep talking about, support abortion rights is to make that support visible. it people have a story to tell about their own abortion, they

should do that it they are comfortable doing that. but however you support abortion rights, you should make sure other people know why it matters to you. and to use your influence in every arena. don't be on the sidelines sitting in the stands. you need to get down on the field and make sure we can get that right. >> thank you all very much for having this conversation and taking this time with me today. i'm grateful. when we come back, from laws that hurt women and families and doctors to a full-scale assault on how our kids are educated. how right wing extremists are trampling on all sorts of rights. what can be done about it. our panel weighs in, next. in, . keep your laundry smelling fresh waaaay longer than detergent alone. if you want laundry to smell fresh for weeks, make sure you have downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters.

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it can feel like too much sometimes. it's unfortunate how often we have to address how the gop's extreme and dangerous and unprecedented lurch to autocracy and assault on rights extends far beyond reproductive rights it's just one of many. in florida "the washington post" explains their broad targeting of abortion rights, elementary school books, the education awaiting students at college, as, quote, a slew of new laws and policy proposals that touch nearly every stage of parenting.

more from that reporting, in the facebook group brittany minor created five years ago for black mothers like herself in orlando, discussions among the 2,800 members have reached new depths of frustration and fatigue. these moms are watching what is happening in florida, the shifting of the political and cultural environment around them, and they are toured and feel helpful, think feel hopeless. the common thread is that people feel broken. the editor in chief charlie sykess. also joining us is cornell belle. er. democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter. i start with you. i think that's the point. i think the republican culture wars, they are not politically popular. they have their point to make people feel broken. so make them feel disconnected. and it feels like at this moment

it couldn't be more important. it wouldn't be more painful to stay engaged. what are your thoughts. >> i think that's absolutely right. what ron desantis is doing is legislating an, treatment paternalism. he's enshrining it in the law and in the state's policy is. it's no accident that he's using parents to do it. because parents have a certain sensitivity and urgency around schools and around their children in part because schools are where we engage in our cultural and political and social reproduction. so the use of parent choice and freedom is really a proxy for personal freedom. once we you create that opening, what manifests is the sense of fear, the sense of loss, the sense of anger, which is not unlike what trump had been doing prior to 2016 and throughout his presidency. so it's an opportunity to mobilize on all of that anger, all of that fear and he's using parents and kids to do it.

>> so it's not a two sides predicament. but he has a point on x. none of it is done in good faith. none of it is done with anyone's interests at heart. it's a political calllation. it's differentiating himself frommen from trump, who i can't imagine desantising its would campaign in front of children because his supporters wouldn't have that. but the burden to protect families and children falls on democrats tully. wonder how you rattle wait their response. >> it's something that we talked about it going into the midterms. to put democracy and freedom on the ballot. and if it's on the ballot, that's inflation.

you have a different engagment with americans. this past midterm when a lot of the pundits were arguing this was perfect condition for a red wave, it wasn't a red wave because you engage in different type of voter with these issues i think what desantis is doing politically makes a lot of sense in the primary. to your point, he does have to compete with trump. he has to be trump, but more palettable trump. which means you have to double down the culture wars and you have to double down or to win a primary. if you're in this country, you have to look at this with a lot of horror and disdain because he's trying to define what

conservatism is. and to your point about young people, when you look at the margin that a not young president joe biden was able to run up this his last election, you look at the way in the past mud term election, the red wave, you look at the gender gap that continues to grow, it's malpractice politically, at least in the general election standard. doubling down on the culture wars that will not grow the republican party. i would argue there are 48%, maybe at best 49% party. how do you, can you win a general election that way? trump won by this lightning striking twice.

they have to grow the republican party. i would argue that george bush was on his way to grow the republican party. especially husband outreach to hispanic voters. this is going in the opposite of that. i don't know how they grow beyond 48%. >> i mean, i want your thoughts on all this. i want to just put out there some of the data that is ub changed and getting worse from a data perspective for republicans. on abortion, the bans have growing number of republicans who oppose them. the post roe, the dobbs era is worse politics for republicans than the other side of it, where you taunt and buld towards overturning something republicans didn't want to overturn. they never thought it would happen. now that it's happened, you have 93% of all republicans who support the bans in the legislatures are pushing or

passing. and on the education stuff, it's boutiquey. accept that you can rile up a crowd with a cheap line about pronouns, but people don't really want to see cruelty embraced as public policy towards anyone's kid. most people don't want anyone's kid to be treated with cruelty. that is the policy agenda that desantis has embraced. >> yes, and there's two things that have been happening in the last several days that uh-uh think underline this. first of all, ron desantis is very defensive on the issue of whether or not he's banning books. i think they are beginning to realize that banning books, take ing books out of libraries, telling teachers what they can say and can't say is not a freedom agenda. it's actually something worse than simply that. but to your point of data, ron desantis himself maybe very popular in florida, but his agenda is not.

and the florida electorate are not on board with this culture war agenda. for example, there's a poll out today from the university of north florida and it asked voters, do you support banning critical race theory and programs of diversity, equity and inclusion in state universities. 61% of voters say they oppose that idea. on then issue of abortion. more than 70% of florida voters oppose the six-week abortion ban. this is across the board. one of the things republicans understand is concealed carry without licensing, without permits. 77% of florida voters oppose all of this. so i think that there is a real risk to the point of the cornell was making here. if you're trying to grow the party, obviously, these kinds of

really sort of wedge issues don't grow the party. but i think there's a real question about how they are going to play in a general election on a national stage. because again, we maybe highly polarized when it comes to the top of the ticket, but i think these numbers would suggest people like ron desantis are way ahead of public opinion, even republican opinion in husband home state. >> those poll numbers caught our eye too. i want to dig in deeper. we have to sneak in a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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visit makeapdplan.com today. if it's 5:49, there's breaking news. this is a variety that falls in the category of shocking, not surprising. let me read thp prosecutors signal criminal charges for donald trump are likely. the former president was given a deadline of next week to appear before a manhattan grand jury if he wishes to testify. a strong indication that an indictment could soon toll. these are three bylines. it reads in part, quote, the mabt district attorney's office recently signalled to donald trump's lawyers

said such offers almost indictment is close for the district attorney alvin bragg to notify a potential defendant without ultimately seeking charges against him. in new york, potential defendants have the right to answer questions in the grand jury before they're indicted they rarely testify and trump is likely to defy the offer. any case would mark the first indo i want of a former american president and could upend the 2024 race. it could elevate bragg to the national stage though not without risk. charlie sykes we have had some indication this was nearing a

new culmination with the appearances of hope hicks and kellyanne conway before alvin bragg's grand jury. now this news breaking that he has been alerted or given an opportunity to appear himself before the grand jury. your thoughts? >> well, this may be the beginning of the dam breaking, because this is not the only indictment he faces. we're still waiting on florida, whether he's going to be indicted for his attempt to overturn the georgia election. we're still waiting on jack smith be the department of justice. in many ways this is the least serious of the charges, but as you pointed out, we're in uncharted territory. a former president of the united states now facing criminal charges, and so the first shoe has fallen, and there's a whole closet load of fulls that may fall over the next couple months. >> cornell, i don't want to be distracted by the shining object, which is donald trump's declaration saturday, and i have

a sense he might have known by saturday when he knew this was coming when he said, quote, i am your retribution. but we know what donald trump looks like and acts like when donald trump is in danger. we've seen it. what is your sense and your advice for prosecutors who seem to have followed the facts to this culmination? >> well, you know, i think there's good and bad news here, and i'm not going to dive too much into the legalities of it, because although i hope to one day play a lawyer on television, right now i just play a political consultant. but the good news is, nicolle, is that no one is above the law in this country, and i think a lot of us have questioned that for some time, and a lot of people have been saying, look, if this was you and i we'd be in real big trouble. he's not in real big trouble because he's the president. i'm happy to see that it looked like no one is above the law.

the bad news is -- or the political reality of this, nicolle, is he's going to use this for his political benefit. he's probably going to raise a lot of money off of this. you know, it is, they're coming after me. going to be a rallying around him. if you think he was reckless and desperate before, you just wait until there's this avalanche of indictments come down on him. i think we are in uncharted waters and we're looking at someone right now who is the leading candidate for the republican nomination, probably more reckless and dangerous than we've ever seen and running a kind of campaign that is absolutely -- >> i agree. >> terrifying to think about how he's going to divide this country. >> bazzle, i have a different view. and what, maybe incite the hanging of his vice president? he already did that. incite violence on the american capitol, the seat of democracy?

he already did that. in my view -- grift millions of dollars from his supporter who is he wants to rally around them. he already did that, too. he's out of moves, cornell. he's done always thing you do when rats scurry off a sinking ship. >> it could always get worse. >> i guess it could get worse -- >> it could get worse. >> i would argue a crappy coup is -- >> it could get worse. >> american president, bazzle. >> alvin bragg, i know him, i voted for him. people complain he was dragging his feet on this case, including folks that worked for him, so if it is actually coming to some conclusion now with a potential indictment, hats off to him for him taking the time to do this the right way. i would say that first and foremost. to your point, i think that the -- as someone said yesterday, his feature at cpac

sound like a script from the empire strikes back. this is a man who will basically use a potential second term to engage in retribution and vengeance against everyone that has crossed him. and if you thought that was the case in season one of donald trump's presidency, you wait for season two, because it will -- i believe that it can get worse, and i'm imagining that should he actually win, ron desantis, he's going to find some way to outdo ron desantis, and that in and of itself is terrifying. i just feel like in this moment, he has supporters who are going to be with him no matter what. to cornell's point, he's probably raised some money off this. but owing to everything we were talk about even in the earlier segment, those amount of people who support him will just shrink. they'll be more intense.

but the number of them will probably shrink has more and more republicans have to figure out how to live without him and find ways to separate from him. difficult to do, but they're going to have to find a way. >> they're going to have to find a way. they're going to have to find a way to live through somebody who has evaded accountability for so long. perhaps finally being held accountable for things that, as you said, cornell, if any of the rest of us did it, we'd be doing these interviews from a jail cell. thank you for having both these conversations about florida and for rolling with us in the breaking news. we're grateful if to the all three of you. quick break for us. we'll be right back. break for us we'll be right back. inflammation in the eye might be to blame. feel the ache and burn! one man learns the truth... over-the-counter eye drops typically work by lubricating your eyes. they may provide temporary relief... but probably won't touch me! mwahaha! tell me there's another way... there's hope for lasting relief with xiidra! xiidra works differently targeting inflammation

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