off. >> what does bill gaetz think the fate of elections under the board of supervisors in the biggest county in arizona looks like, given the headwinds that he is facing in the and the intense pressures? >> i should've mentioned it, all five of the members of the board of supervisors stood shoulder to shoulder and stood up for the facts. in 2022 and 2020, before that. four of the five of them are republicans and there may not be many left next time you look. >> barton gellman, whose latest piece is in the atlantic magazine. we appreciated. that is all in on this thursday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening. alex i always get really scared when i see -- what i see him in the byline. oh lord, what right now.

>> i would have to do an optimistic story. -- and then what. >> thanks, my. friend as always. thanks to you at home for being here this evening. it was four days before the 2016 election, when the wall street journal published this report national enquirer shielded donald trump from playboy model's affair allegation. the journal was the first to report that the national enquirer paid a woman named karen mcdougal $150,000 in august of 2016, and what is known as a catch and kill. basically, the enquirer bought macdougalls story, about a romantic relationship with donald trump in 2006, and then the acquirer killed it. it never went to press. in any other news cycle, this story would've been a bombshell. in the last week, of a wild campaign, the mcdougal story got very little attention. first of all, the country was still reeling from the release of trump's access hollywood tape, which had happened a month earlier. just days before, fbi director james comey had announced the

fbi was taking another look at hillary clinton's emails, and stories were already swirling about an fbi investigation that had been opened into donald trump and his campaign's ties to russia. so, a lot was going on. and the hush money payments, the catch and kill situation, involving karen mcdougal, that all got lost in the fog. lost but not forgotten. because that story, that campaign finance violation, would come back to haunt president trump. in 2018. this time, people paid attention. the date was january 12th, 2018. it was almost exactly one year into donald trump's presidency. trump was already under federal investigation by special counsel robert mueller over his campaign's connections to a russian influence operation. and on that day, the wall street journal broke the news, and we first heard the name, stormy daniels. here's the headline, trump lawyer arranged 130,000 dollar

payment for adult film stars silence. a trump lawyer and fixer, named michael cohen, had paid stormy daniels $130,000 in the waning days of the 2016 campaign to by miss daniels silence about her alleged affair with donald trump. cohen was later reimbursed by president trump, who was now in the white house. all of a sudden, that hush money payment to karen mcdougal back in 2016, that all came back into focus. and it caught the attention of prosecutors in new york. the manhattan district attorney was reportedly thinking of bringing criminal charges, but federal prosecutors were also interested in opening their own investigation into all this. according to reports, the feds basically told the manhattan prosecutors to back off. and we know now how that ended. after conducting their own federal investigation, prosecutors in new york through the book at michael cohen. cohen pleaded guilty in 2018,

to multiple charges, including campaign finance violations. for those two hush money payments. cohen went to prison for over a year, and he served additional time in home confinement. in 2019, michael cohen testified to congress about those payments. >> you confirm the testimony you're about to to give is the whole truth? and nothing but the truth, so help you god? let the record show that the witness answered in the affirmative, thank you. >> over the past year or so, i have done some real soul searching. i see no, my ambition in the intoxication of trump power had much to do with the bad decisions in part that i made. to your chairman -- >> even though federal prosecutors had said in court that cohen acted at the direction of individual one,

aka, donald trump. despite that astonishing admission, they shut their investigation in 2019. prosecutors in the district attorney's office however, under district attorney cy vance, they decided to pick up the investigation. pick it up back over again. fast forward two years. in the new district attorney was sworn in, a man named alvin bragg. it was assumed that mr. bragged would continue cy vance's criminal investigation. that was not what happened. roughly two months into alvin bragg's tenure, two top prosecutors on his team abruptly resigned. sending their disdain for the district attorney's decision to drop the investigation into trump's false business records, including those investigations related to the hush money payments to stormy daniels. one even said, trump was guilty of numerous felonies. that was that. we assumed that the case, looking into trump's hush money payments, two women, we assume that was all over. the end, finished.

until the new york times reported this past november, that the manhattan da, alvin bragg, was, yes, looking in to jump-start that case, and jump-start he did. in the months since that report, a who's who of trump's inner circle have reportedly either met with manhattan prosecutors, or testified before a grand jury, when empaneled by and alvin bragg. the list's names you know. hope hicks, kellyanne conway, david pecker of the national enquirer, michael cohen, who by the way, may 19 separate visits. it has been a parade of trump insiders who have made their way into the manhattan da's office. what became known among prosecutors in the da's office is the zombie case. it would apparently never die, tonight, that zombie case is back in a big way. the new york times reports, this evening, that manhattan da, alvin brick, has signaled to trump's attorneys, that a criminal indictment of the former president may be forthcoming.

here it is, quote, the manhattan da's office recently signal to trump's lawyers, he could face criminal charges for his role in the payment of hush money to a porn star, the strongest indication yet that the prosecutors are nearing an indictment of the former president. the prosecutors offered trump the chance to testify next week before the grand jury that has been hearing evidence in a potential case, such offers almost always indicate an indictment is close. it would be unusual for the district attorney, alvin bragg, to notify a potential defendant without ultimately seeking charges against him. the times also reporting, at least six individuals already appeared before the grand jury, nbc news confirms that reporting tonight that trump was told he could appear before the grand jury, we have not confirmed that they have signaled to trump's lawyers that he could be facing criminal charges. despite the former president calling tonight's report, completely insane, it is undeniable, if true, the new york times reporting this evening is monumental.

it may represent, for the very first time, on american history, that a former president may be criminally charged. joining us now, barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan, and professor at the university of michigan school of law, and the great neal katyal, who actually needs no introduction. let's go right to you both. i will start with you, neil, in terms of how you're reading this reporting, the times is pretty aggressive saying, very clearly, they believe that an indictment could be coming, it's on its way. the washington post is a little bit more circumspect, nbc has not confirmed it indictments on his way, trump has been offered the chance to testify in front of this grand jury. how do you read the situation? >> right, there are two possibilities, alex. the post says, it signifies the end of the investigation. the new york times says it signifies an indictment is likely. both are possible.

i think we're reading too leaves here, at best. i think it means indictment is more likely. i think that for two reasons, one, the evidence against donald trump, you know, actually counts for something. and it's really bad, what he did was stormy daniels and the like. and the manhattan district attorney here, has paused the investigation, in fact look is shut down. then something restarted, and the restart, to me is telling. you're not gonna do that particularly in reopen investigation into the former president of the united states unless you're really pretty sure you have the goods. the fact that it's restarted, to me, makes it more likely that it's leaning toward indictment. the argument on the other side is this, there's a section in the new york code, one 90.50, that says that a defense attorney can tell the district attorney, hey, i want to assert my clients right to possibly testify before the grand jury.

please, give me notice. so i can give that option to her or him, my client. it could be that that's what happened here, that the trump defense team has told the district attorney that. now, the district attorney is just saying, okay, i'm near the end of my grand jury investigation, do you want to come in, you can come in. it's certainly possible, i think that's what's driving the post story, though they don't go into all the detail or about the -- and stuff. i think it's less likely. >> barb, how do you read this? we do know that michael cohen, he's not testified before that grand jury as yet, he's had 19 meetings in the manhattan da's office. kellyanne conway, hope hicks, we're all brought in, we're not sure which one of those characters has just had meetings or actually testified. given the level of witnesses that are being called, if you will, a i would ask you to read the same two leaves that meal is.

>> yeah, i think it suggests to me that they are at the end of the investigation. new york law requires that the prosecutors at least invite the target in to testify. you're not going to invite that person in until you are at the very end, because before you interview someone who's the target of an investigation, you want to be as informed as you can be about that investigation. so, you would talk to everybody else first. this means, he is the last witness, and they've reached that point. that means they've talked everybody that they plan to talk to. i would also expect that if the decision were not to charge donald trump, there would be no need to invite him in. it's a big deal to invite a target into the grand jury. especially when it's the former president. you would not go to that trouble if all you're going to do is declined to bring charges. although it is speculation, if this reporting is true, donald trump has been invited him to testify, that speculation seems pretty sound, it means an indictment is not far off. >> neil, how strong do you

think this case? is it certainly been litigated in the court of public opinion, we've heard a lot from michael cohen back in the day. but to actually make this a felony charge, it requires some deft legal maneuvering, does it not? >> yeah, so, there's obvious mr. meaner here in that trump was paying, it looks like, these payments of $130,000. to stormy daniels. and then lying about it. the question is, does it give rise to the level of criminal intent necessary for it to be a felony. in order for it to be a felony, he has to be knowingly concealing that state crime from investigation. now, my gut is, that's not gonna be a very difficult thing to prove, this is not like some other things in which there aren't financial records, here there are. there will be some stuff about attorney-client client privilege in the like. trump was acting through his attorneys when he made these

payments, at the end of the day, i think the evidence here so far looks pretty damning and i think if i'm donald trump, at this point, i'd be pretty worried. this is a hard thing for him to get out of. >> barbara, i wonder what you think of some of the reporting we have from rolling stone about a possible legal avenue for trump to pursue by saying that the hush money payments had nothing to do with his campaign and everything to do with hiding his affair from his wife. all right an excerpt from rolling stone, multiple trump advisers, including at least one of his lawyers, have told him in recent months that he has a stronger case if he argues the payments to stormy daniels had nothing to do with the election. instead, these advisers would have trump argue that the payments were entirely about preventing conflict with his wife, melania. we know that was something that is on the table back in the day, trump did not want to pursue it because basically melania was very angry at him, and would've been an awkward conversation in their marriage. do you think that's a viable defense here? >> no, i think if you believe

that to be true, it's not a valid legal defense. that's because both things can be true at the same time. perhaps, that was his overall writing motive, to keep this information from his wife. but if there was a concealing of campaign expenditures, that's a crime, regardless of why he did it. whether it's to protect his wife or protect himself from the wrath of his wife, if he failed to disclose a campaign expenditure, that can be the underlying crime. that neil was speaking of, that can turn on mr. meter into a felony. it's sort of like, when someone accepted a bribe to vote in favor of a contract on the city council, or something like that, i was gonna vote for anything, but it is good. but i didn't accept a bribe. that's enough. you can have both motives, you can have mixed motives, and that still enough to constitute a crime. >> neil, given the amount of the number of investigations, a fairly great magnitude in terms

of special counsel looking into whether trump incited a riotous mob to undermine democracy on january 6th, to a lot of people who've watched trump's legal foibles unfold, the stormy daniels hush money payments seem like a throwback. it's surprising that, a, alvin begged is still pursuing this, and be, if we're gonna look at this in the lens of history, the first person to charge former president to levy criminal indictment against former president would be alvin bragg for this case. do you think there's any discussion with the feds about whether or not he moves forward with an indictment, given the expectations that other criminal charges are in the wings? >> i don't think so. i think you have here, alex, two different federal investigations of trump. one about what he did on january 6th, the other about the documents that he stole and put at mar-a-lago.

then you have to state investigations, one, in georgia, about the big -- fake electors and find 11,780 votes in the lake. the other, this new york investigation, we're talking about. the new york investigation does have a bit of a federal overlay, because, as you reporting a moment ago, the federal justice department was looking into some of these things. i could imagine a conversation between the state and the federal government about that. i don't think there's a bigger conversation about brag, the district attorney, saying hey, what are gonna do about january 6th. they're still stolen documents or even a conversation with the georgia and new york folks, they're very separate investigations. so, i really think it's like a race, at this point, to see, is it gonna be fani willis in georgia or alvin bragg in new york? that's gonna be the first to indict donald trump. regardless of who is the first, it looks like that person very

well may not be the last person to indict donald trump. >> barb, we're looking at a future that could possibly be one where you have the manhattan da going forward with criminal charges, you have fani willis is the fulton county da going forward with criminal charges, maybe you have a special counsel going forward with criminal charges on the mar-a-lago documents case. potentially, more criminal charges relating to january 6th? that is possible, it sounds like at this point. >> yeah, it really could be quite chaotic. in addition, you'll have potentially donald trump defending himself in four separate criminal cases simultaneously, while also running for president. probably really incredibly interesting, i think there's a good chance the two federal cases are charged as separate cases, maybe one out of florida and one out of d.c.. he could be defending himself in for different venues well that's going on. certainly, unprecedented. yes. so has been the conduct of the former president. i think 2024 promises to be

quite a year. >> that's an understatement. if there was one. barbara mcquade and neal katyal, thank you both so much, my friends, for joining me this evening. still to come this hour, we are waiting for a ruling by federal judge that could change access to an abortion medication as we know. one of the nation's biggest retailers has already made its own controversial decision. that's coming up. next, president biden is dropping the hammer on congressional republicans. white house press secretary, karine jean-pierre, joins me now. stick around. people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. ♪ customize and save. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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president biden has been in a standoff with congressional republicans over our nation's version of a public retirement program. social security and medicare. both problems, both programs, are hugely popular. one poll earlier found that 70% of americans opposed making cuts to medicare and social security. just 17% of americans support making those cuts. president biden has made protecting those programs a centerpiece of his political messaging. he even got the entire republican conference to publicly commit to not cutting medicare and social security during that nationally televised back and forth during

the state of the union. -- you probably seen one exchange in the past, month is what president biden did after that. the president followed up that speech by touring key states, like florida and wisconsin, and waving around a copy of republican senator rick scott's plan to sunset medicare and social security. during one event in senator scott's home state of florida, president biden put a copy of the senators deeply unpopular plan on every single seat. so, president biden has made holding republicans feet to the fire on this issue a top priority. he's largely succeeded. republicans are in a corner on this. the new york times reports, republicans are trying to build support for a budget that would make deep cuts without raising taxes or touching social security and medicare. which is mathematically speaking, extremely difficult. without any of those big ticket items to choose from, the gop

is making deep cuts to things like health care, food assistance and housing programs. all of which is politically very risky, to say nothing about the actual ethics here. today, the president has delivered a sort of coup de grâce in this standoff. by releasing his budget for the year. the biden plan calls for new taxes on the ultra wealthy, as well as oil and gas companies, an increase in funding for programs like medicare, medicaid and the affordable care act, and taking on drug companies to lower the cost of prescription drugs. today, 18 hall in philadelphia, president biden laid out his -- making -- ready for a fight on all of this. >> they seem to say, they're not gonna cut medicare. i said, what about medicaid? what about the affordable care act? what about veterans benefits? what about law enforcement? what about aid to rural communities? what about support for a military?

how will they make these numbers add up? where is the deal? if maga republicans in congress try to repeal the affordable care act, social security, medicare, medicaid. i'm not gonna let them. >> even if kevin mccarthy could somehow wave a wizards wants to produce a budget that made the necessary spending cuts without touching entitlements or raising taxes, there's still the very real problem of whether or not that budget could even pass his house. given the republicans razor-thin majority and tendency to, shall we say, fight among themselves. meanwhile, the country is barreling toward a debt default. a crisis, by the way, that is a republican making. joining us now, white house press secretary kareen jean pierre. it's good to see you. i usually don't have a pocket version of rick scott's plan to sunset medicare and social security. it's never far from the front of mind. it really feels like the president has, for lack of better term, dropped a hammer

on republicans in these negotiations but really, it seems like taking medicare in social security off the table, i wonder whether you have any indication of when kevin mccarthy may be ready to drop his own budget. and start to negotiate with the president. have you any sense of a timeline here. >> i'll say this, what you saw today from this president is that he says this many times, don't tell me what you've all me. show me your budget, and i'll tell you what you value. those words are so critical and so important. that's what the president laid out today. he laid out a budget that is incredibly proud of, and that's going to deliver for the american people, give them a little breathing room, and you're asking me about social security and medicare. he is going to continue to make sure we protect and strengthen. that he's going to reduce the deficit by nearly three trillion dollars over -- but making sure the ultra wealthy pay their fair share,

we're talking about giving families a little bit of a breathing room by putting more money into education and childcare. building on the investments that we've made over the last two years, think about the bipartisan infrastructure deal, when you think about the chips and science act, all of those things are so critical. let's not forget, these are also items that 81 million of the american people who voted for him in 20 2020 support. yes, we're going to ask the republicans in congress what is your budget? what do you value? sure the american people what is incredibly important to you. but you want to do. and we've heard, we've heard they've been very clear about this, alex, you lay this out so well. they want to cut social security, they want to cut medicare, yes, the state of the union was so brilliant with the president was able to do, to take that off the table, but they've also been talking out of the both sides of the most of on this. we want to see, we've been very transparent with the american people, why can't they do so?

what is it that they believe, what is it that they want to show the american people? and we're ready, we're ready to have that discussion. >> i think the phrase, what is it that they believe is a philosophical question that the gop might not be able to answer. i wonder, if the white house is at all worried about the disarray in the republican caucus. first of, all the math is not on their side. the cuts they would have to make, setting aside entitlement and raising taxes, or draconian and kind of insane. then getting to agree that this is the budget actually want to propose seems a real heavy lift given how on aligned, shall we say, the fractious members of the caucus are. yet, these negotiations are important, barreling toward the debt ceiling to fall, are you concerned that the republicans can't get their act together? and that will have a very meaningful effect on the american economy in the form of the debt ceiling? >> there's a saying that i heard recently, i'll share it with you. not my circus, not my monkey.

that if they can't get themselves together, that's on them. we're gonna focus on is the american people. we want to make sure we're delivering and being incredibly transparent. look, we're gonna continue to call out republicans, we're gonna continue to say, show me your budget. let us know what it is that you value. what it is that you want to deliver for the american people. as it relates to the deficit, the default, and lifting that ceiling, that is something that is their constitutional duty to do. that is something that was done in the last administration three times in a bipartisan way. there's no negotiation there. that should be done without conditions, now, as we're talking about being fiscally responsible, this is something that we want to see, what is it that they want to negotiate, we can't negotiate it out of thin air. show us the paper. show us the budget. then we can have that discussion. >> show us the money, or how you want to spend. i've gotta ask you, the way --

the white house has been fairly outspoken about what's happening in certain republican circles. specifically, what's going on over at fox news, where tucker carlson is trying to whitewash the events of january 6th. the president tweeted, more than 140 officers were injured on january 6th. i've said before, how dare anyone diminish or deny the hell they went through? i stand with the capitol police. i know house republicans feel shame for what was done to undermine our law enforcement. does the white house consider fox news a news organization? >> so, i'll say this. when you look at the depositions that have been out there, recently, it even states from fox news leadership, they do not see tucker carlson's show as news or even truthful. that is coming from the fox leadership, that's not coming from me, that's coming from them. and also would quote, paraphrase here, with the chief of capital police said. he said, when you watch, tucker carlson. as it relates to january 6th, it is misleading, it is

misinformation. with the conclusion of what happened on january 6th. the attacks that happened. as you saw from the president's statement, 140 officers were injured. nearly 140 officers were injured on that day. it was an attack on democracy, it was an attack on our constitution, and you cannot whitewash that. tucker carlson cannot whitewash that. anyone who doesn't see with their own eyes what occurred cannot whitewash that. the president is going to stand with the police officers, he's gonna stand for truth. and clearly, that is not what tucker carlson believes in. >> i'm gonna say that sort of sounds like the white house doesn't think fox is a news organization, we gotta leave it there. white house press secretary, karine jean-pierre, i so deeply appreciate your time, thanks for coming on the show. >> thank you, thanks alex. appreciate it. >> we have much more ahead tonight, as we await a federal court ruling that could ban an abortion drug nationwide. all eyes on the pharmacies that stop those drugs, and what

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is giving us a fresh look at what happened in the capital on january 6th. and it, you can see the chaos, as rioters trash the capitol

hideaway office, republican senator jim risch of idaho. these offices are in unlisted areas of the capital, they're designated just for senators. rioters rifled through the desks and cut bags open as they looked for, quote, intel. they also defecated in his sweet. that is noteworthy. but if you're expecting any comment from jim risch, the senator whose office was broken into and vandalized, well, whenever she reached out to senator risch, i don't do interviews on january 6th, thanks. >> thanks anyway. the reason we're seeing this video of the ransacking is because it's an exhibit in the trial of the january 6th defendant. this video evidence happens to be dropping at the exact same time as fox host tucker carlson is launching his own counter narrative what happened that day. and suggesting that january 6th was just a chaotic sightseeing adventure. rather than say, mobs of people ransacking congressional offices and decadent defecating

in the. now, tucker carlson's version of events, surprise, gaining traction with defendants who are citing it in court. today, an attorney for proud boys on trial for seditious conspiracy, said in a court filing, the footage establishes that the senate chamber was never violently breached, in fact, was treated respectfully by january 6th protesters. the senators on january 6th could've continued proceedings. joining us now is ryan riley, at nbc news justice reporter, ryan, thanks for being here today. what can you tell us about how the doj is handling all of this, brand-new tucker carlson narrative that seems to be embraced by the defendants in these january 6th cases? >> you, know a ton of evidence already. it's been a challenge i think just for both the justice department and for defense attorney to handle. this is been a growing issue, the amount of discovery in particular case of january 6th, it's just really over the top. you had so much evidence

generated by the defendants themselves. who are recording themselves and selfies while they committed crimes. you just had all these data dumps from phones that were seized during the court process, it's just a ton of information of them have to go through. what allows you to do is to put together all of the pieces of the puzzle of what happened on january 6th and put together a mosaic, there's a ton of evidence. it does sort of become a choose your own adventure scenario. if you wanted to make january 6th look really calm, that's really easy to cherry-pick things and say, oh, look at this moment over here. without showing any other context. which is exactly what tucker carlson did this week. he just lied, flat out lied, and his presentation where, there was some mystery about how that individual qanon shaman went into the capitol. no, in fact, you can trace his steps on the western side of the capitol. zero doubt that he knew he was not allowed in there. he was walking through the

inauguration platform with this mob. as the cops trying to hold them back. it was among the first people to go in the door after it was broken through, with, with that loud alarm going off. yeah, this ruling to people who think, oh, the capitol police snuck this guy in a back door. and gave him a tour of the capital. that's just not what happened, they were overwhelmed that day. it was a chaotic situation, they were vastly outnumbered. they made some strategic decisions about how they could best to keep the scenario calm. and he escalated. unfortunately, heavy was been cherry-pick now to make this look like this was some sort of calm event, when in reality, it was chaos. >> also, all these defendants had access to most of this footage already. do they not? >> that's right, most of the footage, the justice department has turned over thousands of hours of this video. a lot of this is throwing

spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. a lot of the discovery that the defense are trying to bring up a senator there's a these cases. one defended a particulars representing himself, he's made it his mission to get all these videos out as he can, which on the one hand, as a journalist, you kind of appreciate. i think i want to see as many materials as we can. from january 6th to help to put together a complete picture of what was happening. his mission has been to drop all these conspiracy theories. that amount of raw material does allow a lot of people with bad motives to create the story that they want to tell about that day. while ignoring all these other factors about what was happening. more broadly, on january 6th. >> undeniably, it seems between mark tucker carlson and marjorie taylor greene, there's a movement to reframe the, quote unquote, victims of january 6th. we know that marjorie taylor

greene, i believe, have sent a letter to the d.c. mayor over the treatment of d.c. detainees in d.c. jail. they're visiting them, to check on how they're doing. do you expect a fight between the oversight committee, which marjorie taylor greene sits on, and james comer does as well, and the d.c. mayor over this? do you have any intel on exactly how the january six detainees or being treated in d.c. jail? >> it's fascinating, to see so many criminal justice reformers committed nowhere. suddenly, they care about the conditions in the d.c. jail, which is been going on for decades. suddenly, a bunch of white people trump supporters, are locked out there. there's all this public interests. frankly, it could be something that will be good overall for the jail to get a little extra scrutiny, there they met some long-standing issues. honestly, is to facilities over there, the one of the two or six defendants are being held in, is the better of the two. that's what these examinations by the marshals service have

found out over the course of the period which they're being held. more broadly, there's a lot of misinformation about how many defendants are being held, and there's this use of the word political prisoner in saying that 1000 people have been arrested, when you talk to a lot of people, as i did last year and the year before, when there is a rally in support of a lot of these defendants. they were under this impression that, oh, these people were being locked up for trial for misdemeanors, that's just not what's happening. each one of these individuals who's being held pretrial has an individualized assessment by a federal judge, by a federal magistrate judge, or a judge or an appeals court even, about whether or not they deal pretrial, unlike a lot of other states where people were held simply because they could not afford a certain amount of money to put up for bill, that does not happen in a federal system. and what's being held because they can't come up with a certain amount of cash. they're all being held because they haven't in divisional assessment about the danger they pose to the community, the

danger of the extent of the evidence against them. and whether they oppose the threat going forward. that's something that a lot of people who have contact with criminal justice system don't really get. they're on the lucky side of this. it -- their act like the victims, when in reality, they're getting some middle of a bull in a criminal justice system. don't >> we can think the january six defendants for calling attention to the inequities of the cash bail system. thanks for your time, ran. we will be right back. will be right back. n's college fund, we can afford this house. the house whisperer! this house says use realtor.com to find options within your budget. good luck young man. realtor.com to each their home. she found it. the feeling of finding the psoriasis treatment she's been looking for. sotyktu is the first-of-its-kind, once-daily pill for moderate-to-severe plaque psoriasis for the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding that outfit psoriasis

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members of our team have been hitting refresh on the docket for federal case in texas, anxiously awaiting a ruling from a trump appointed judge that could undo the fda's approval of a drug used in the most common method of abortion. a drug known as mifepristone. medication abortion accounts for more than half the abortions performed in the u.s.. mifepristone is the key component of medication abortion. these pills are safe, they're convenient, and they're significantly less invasive than surgical abortion. alone, trump appointed judge in texas could issue a ruling that effectively bans mifepristone nationwide at any moment. yet, the forces that want to ban all abortion by every method, everywhere, all at once are not content to wait for a favorable ruling. attorneys general of 21 states have basically intimidated one of the nation's largest pharmacy chains, walgreens,

into agreeing not to dispense mifepristone interstates. here's the thing. medication abortion is still legal in several of those states, including alaska, iowa, kansas in montana. so, walgreens has essentially been bullied by antiabortion attorneys general, beyond where the law actually lies. a representative from walgreens told nbc, this is a very complex and influx area of the law, we are taking that into account. walgreens only dispense mifepristone in those dew discussions where it's legal to do so if we are certified by the fda. now, the state of california, which, by the way is not one of the states affected by the walgreens decision, is punishing walgreens. yesterday, california governor, gavin newsom, announced that his state will not renew a 54 million dollar contract it has with the pharmacy, specifically because of walgreens decision on the abortion medication. joining us now is the expert on all of this, jessica valenti, writer of the news letter, abortion every day, which is such a professionally named website.

every day, there's something. >> every single day, it is too much to keep up with. >> jessica, how much of a gray area are these promises actually? >> they're not in a gray area. they had a very clear decision to make. between patience and politics. and walgreens chose politics. now, they're dealing with the consequences of that, there have a very, very bad week because of it. they're seeing their structures go down, they just lost a 54 million dollar deal with california, and people are furious. people don't want corporations making their medical decisions for them. >> is your expectation that the other major retailers cvs is going to do the opposite of walgreens, how much do you think the brouhaha over this has chilled any move cbs might've make. >> if you asked me a week ago, cbs is gonna do the same thing. now, because of the public outcry, i think they're gonna hold their horses and wait and sort of see what happens. way to get the certification. they're all waiting for this fda certification. walgreens jumped the gun a little bit, and made this

announcement, so, i think that cvs and other major pharmacies are gonna use that as an excuse to wait and not say anything. >> the fda certification, which is supposed to allow them to sell this medication, not over the counter, but is it over the counter? >> no, it's not over the counter. >> it's without an in-person medical? visit >> without it in person, exactly. >> we are waiting for this ruling from the texas judge, missed mr. katz mark, that seems like it could further complicate this landscape viola. can you walk me through what would happen if he does in fact say, okay, you cannot mifepristone is off the mark it. >> theoretically, it could be gone for everyone. it could be gone for pro-choice states as well, that's what makes this decision so scary. the biden administration has kept saying to folks, don't worry about it. it's gonna be okay. we're gonna make sure that everyone has access to abortion medication. and we're all waiting to see what that means exactly. i think what they're referring

to is that the fda can keep it on the market, even if they have to do that whole process over again. proving it's safe, even though it's been out there for 20 years, we know that it's safe. it's a ridiculous sham situation. >> well, it sets the table for them being able to do the same thing with -- any other medication. >> anything, they could do this with anything. really, their evidence is not there, the lawsuit is bunk, it is just the height of ridiculousness that we are in this position. especially when it comes safe, and as you said 50% of people who are ending their pregnancies or using abortion medication. >> do you sense that the white house has a plan here? we can see this coming from a mile away. same with the dobbs decision also, i think a lot of people thought, biden white house wasn't prepared for this, they were acting aggressively ahead of time, do you sense they're going to make it so the fda can

continue, mifepristone can continue to be prescribed, even if it's ultimate future is one of reregulation? >> they better. they faced so much deserved pushback after roe is overturned. if they don't have their stuff together on this one, it is going to be a real problem. so, i'm remaining optimistic, i would love to hear more from them about what is actually going to look, like what are they literally going to do to make sure that people can get abortion medication. they can't now. so, it's incredibly important we hear from them. >> the reality is, this is a political i don't to say when, or because the stakes are so dire for americans. it is democrats want to have this fight. republicans do not seem to understand this is terrible for them politically. >> it is awful for them. the midterm showed us that in every single poll. that comes out, shows the same thing.

and has for decades. that americans overwhelmingly want legal access to abortion, even in red states. republicans know that. that's why they're doing these things like trying to make it harder to pass ballot measures, they know that if voters have a say when it comes to abortion, they're going to come out on the pro-choice side every single time. >> they want to keep abortion off the ballot. >> they know where the american public, whether opinion is on access to abortion. >> jessica valenti, abortion every day, we wish it wasn't such a quickly moving storm front. thank you for your time and wisdom tonight. >> thank. you >> will be right back. 52. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we thought we'd try electric unicycles. whoa! careful, babe! saving was definitely easier. hey babe, i think i got it! it's actually... whooooa! ok, show-off! help! oh! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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we will see you again tomorrow. and now it's time for the last word, with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, alex. and so it could be alvin bragg who makes history as the first prosecutor in history to bring charges against a former president of the united states. the clock seems to be taking