nervously watched these headlines, about a pair of american banks over the weekend. "the washington post"'s tyler pager, thank you so very much for all your reporting this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now let me be clear, that during the financial crisis, there were investors and owners of systemic, large banks that were bailed out we're certainly not looking -- and the reforms put in place means we're not going to do that again. but we are concerned about depositors and are focused on trying to meet their needs >> treasury secretary janet yellen showing support for people who deposited money in silicon valley bank. she says the feds will not bail

out the second largest failed bank in u.s. history we're going to have the latest on this developing financial crisis. >> tell you what, it was a crazy weekend. yesterday, the white house working along with people across the financial industry, doing everything they could to stop a meltdown. >> yeah. >> and it looked in the early afternoon like that meltdown was coming they understood that china's markets were going to be opening at 8:00, 9:00 at night, and they had to get things lined up before then so the asian markets didn't collapse, which would cause u.s. markets to collapse this morning it was touch and go, as you know. >> yeah. >> because we were on a lot of calls yesterday afternoon. it was touch and go for quite some time. it looks like, for now, they've stemmed the bleeding but this, for a while, was looking like it could spread much like 2008. >> absolutely.

meanwhile, mike pence finds the courage to speak out on donald trump, but only behind closed doors >> and off camera. >> we'll recap for you what he said during a media dinner with no cameras speaking of the former president, trump makes a campaign stop in iowa today, just days after ron desantis delivered campaign style speeches to voters there also ahead, we'll have an update on the foigtin fighting eastern europe, and signs there are cracks in the relationship between the u.s. and ukraine we'll talk about that coming up. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, march 13th with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. princeton university's eddie glaude jr., who is very excited that princeton made the men's basketball march madness tournament. >> all right. >> former white house press secretary, now an msnb

jen psaki. "inside with jen psaki," debuts this wednesday, and we havea preview of one of her first guests on the show and economic analyst steve rattner is going to explain why "it's a wonderful life" explains all that is happening with the banks. also with us, the founder of the conservative website, the bul bulwark, charlie sykes >> favorite movie. i can't wait to hear. >> yeah. >> steve rattner's "it's a wonderful life" theory here. >> we'll be playing for you during the show this morning our full interview with first lady of ukraine, olena zelenska, and secretary of state hillary clinton, which was incredible. >> it was an extraordinary moment in abu dhabi, having them talking about this war, talking about partnerships, yeah really something that she was even there. >> yeah. let's get straight to the news former vice president mike pence offering his sharpest criticism

yet of former president donald trump over the january 6th insurrection pence made the remarks on saturday at the annual gridiron dinner a closed door, off camera event attended by politicians and journalists in the nation's capitol. speeches at that event usually take a humorous tone, where politicians poke fun at each other. but people at the dinner reported the tone turned serious when pence turned to january 6th. pence said, in part, quote, president trump was wrong. i had no right to overturn the election and his reckless words endangered my family and everyone at the capitol that day, and i know history will hold donald trump accountable. he continued, quote, make no mistake about it, what happened that day was a disgrace, and it mocks decency to portray it any other way.

okay we will note that, despite those comments, pence has so far refused to testify under oath. so history will hold him accountable, but nobody will right now? what is he saying? >> i mean, he's saying he's not going to testify under oath before all the investigative bodies that are trying to actually hold donald trump accountable for those things that mike pence said he did. >> he refused to testify before the january 6th committee, saying publicly that the committee had, quote, no right to his testimony but the gridiron dinner was. okay he is currently fighting a subpoena to testify in jack smith's federal investigation into trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election, as well as the form peresident's mishandlig of classified documents found at mar-a-lago very interesting. >> well, and this is more of the same, mika we saw kevin mccarthy scream to donald trump on january 6th to stop the rioters

they were his people and it was all on him. we saw him go to the house floor the next day and do it you have these republicans that want to have it both ways. listen, i'm very glad mike pence said what mike pence said at the gridiron it is there. it now is in the history books and we know about it, but i just -- >> at a comedy dinner, really? >> i don't understand why they can't just tell the american people the truth talk to the camera, and tell them the truth i know that's not in vogue right now at a lot of networks it's not in vogue for a lot of politicians. i should say for a lot of cable news hosts at other networks but when you want to hear the truth about donald trump from top republicans these days, you just can't expect to hear it in the light of day instead, maybe some will say it in whispered, off-the-record

conversations with reporters or in cloak room screens where donald trump is dismissed with content, as a liar, loser on his party. or you may hear it from mike pence, but only when he's off camera at the gridiron club. like all of these republicans that attack donald trump off the record but won't say the truth about him on the record, on come r camera the former vice president wants it both ways telling the truth about a man who threatened his life and his family's life but not actually saying it on tv. or, charlie sykes, to the very investigative committees and investigators that could hold him accountable for this extraordinarily terrible behavior that mike pence himself is now condemning in the harshest words. >> well, it was profiles in half

coun courage, wasn't it, that we got used to from mike pence. the irony, of course, is this is why he has zero chance of winning the republican nomination you know, despite all of this, he got a standing ovation from many members of the club, i understand, but there's probably no focus group that's less representative of the republican voters right now than the media crowd in washington, d.c he's willing to go halfway he's not willing to testify. but the fact that he is willing to call out donald trump, that he is willing to talk about decency in relationship to what happened on january 6th, is the reason why he is disqualified as a republican nominee this is the republican party this is the republican base. one of the questions you have to ask yourself is, this is a former vice president of the united states. why is he not one of the front runners, and why is there no prospect at all that he is going to end one this nomination and it's because he was willing

to go halfway and condemn donald trump. now, he's in this no man's land. he's condemned donald trump, so he is going to be cast out by the maga verse and, yet, he's not willing to testify. he is not willing to have the courage of his own convictions when it comes to denouncing this so it's, yeah, one and a half cheers, but ultimately, sort of pathetic. >> again, so glad he said it, but, you're right. >> yeah. >> very sad he can't say it on camera jen psaki, let's just forget about what's right and what's wrong in terms of this conversation about mike pence. let's just talk about what helps you win elections and what helps you lose elections there's no guarantee if he actually tells the truth about donald trump and is strong and goes aggressive on the campaign trail that he'll win, but we all know this, you can't be halfway in youcan't have one foot in the water and one foot out of the water. that guarantees a loss that's what all these people are doing right now.

look at nikki haley who said, oh, i'm not going to criticize donald trump i'm not going to say anything bad about him because he hasn't said anything bad about me really the guy has been attacking nikki haley, even attacking her complexion, like these vicious, horrible personal attacks against her. a couple weeks later, she said, oh, donald trump isn't attacking me why would i ever say anything bad about him? again, let's forget about what is right, what's wrong, courageous, not courageous, that's just bad politics. >> agree one, you can't win a presidential election, a primary even or certainly in a general by being inauthentic that's what we're seeing from a lot of these candidates. who are you, and what do you actually think that's important no matter what political party you are. the second piece is, you also don't win by pretending that the guy who is leading is going to just go away i mean, we've seen him go down in polls in iowa and other places, but that's because of excitement maybe about ron desantis and others. it's not really about nikki

haley at this point, and it's not really about mike pence either if other thing, joe, i was at the dinner on saturday night, and it was strange, i will say i mean, it was about 9:30 at night in a dark basement ballroom everybody is wearing black tie or whitetails, which is very strange. there's not many dinners left that still do that and that's when he decided to give his strongest comments. now, it is true, also, that he got largely a standing ovation from the room. he had some good jokes, then he gave a very powerful -- what i thought was a powerful case in the moment but to the point everybody has been raising, why there? what are you going todo now? what role are you actually going to play in getting to the bottom of what happened to prevent it from happening again in history? >> right you know, mika, all these republicans need to do, look back at donald trump when donald trump first got in the race, he knew he had to take

out jeb. he had hundreds of millions of dollars. there was no way jeb was going to lose to donald trump. that's what everybody was saying he went after low-energy jeb and hammered him every day on a small level, i started out 30, 40 points behind in my race. i knew i had to keep punching, punching, punching up and just bait them to come after me eventually, they did you can't just -- when you are as far behind as mike pence, nikki haley and most of these other republicans, you can't just sit pback and pretend that the guy that's leading the pack is a nice guy, especially if he tried to have you and your family killed. >> yeah. >> let me say that again you can't pretend on camera that a guy is a nice guy and you're going to protect him in front of federal investigators if he's tried to kill you and your

family as donald trump tried to do with mike pence and mike pence's family mike pence said that himself on saturday night, so why don't you pull your punches against that guy? >> albeit slow, things are changing. >> they are. >> the environment is thanchang >> they are. >> after all of trump's losing, after all of his lying, after dominion and other things changed the dynamic here, that truth is becoming back in vogue, okay whether you like it or not it seems like mike pence is still trying to walk that very fine line between truth and fiction. at the same time, on saturday night, the gridiron, he spoke the truth. he spoke his truth >> and you brought up a great point. i mean, all these people, you brought up dominion. eddie gloaude, the things that

the donald trump supporters, so-called supporters say about donald trump in texts to each other in the cloak room, to members of the press i mean, we've had mark leibovich on talking about, you know, how kevin mccarthy has just gone after donald trump to mark leibovich. but then they get in front of a camera and play scared like mika said, mike pence will say off camera, "donald trump tried to have me killed and my family killed, put my family's life in jeopardy," which he did. you look at the timeline, that's exactly what he did. then you've got the dominion lawsuit showing us that the very people that have been at the forefront of spreading the lies about the stolen election and january 6th to each other are saying, this is all garbage. it's all lies. so you have people saying things off the record about donald

trump that are harsh, as harsh as anything you would hear on-air from an msnbc primetime host when an msnbc primetime host or "new york times" editorial writer or somebody from the left says the same words that they say in spryprivate to each othe, they say, "oh, they're crazy they're communists they have trump derangement syndrome." not sure how they say that after typing and texting to each other -- >> i hate him. he's despicable. >> they all hate him and know he is lying. >> joe, truth -- as mika said, truth may be in vogue again, but cynicism and hypocrisy still reign. what's interesting about pence saturday night, although there's this moment of courage, i suppose, there's a kind of performance of statesmanship that performance involves kicking the can down the road.

history will hold donald trump accountable. there's a sense in which you want to perform a certain statesmanship, but there's a cynical, kind of self-interested politics at work i don't want to alienate the base i'll act in light of x, y and z. mika might be right, that there is a truth coming to the floor, but we still have folks who are self-interested, cynical, and will act in their own self-interest instead of in the name of democracy. >> we'll see it is good that vice president pence said that. certainly an odd venue for doing so this isn't the white house correspondence dinner on c-span. as jen said, this is lit by candle, in the basement of a random washington hotel and done off the record after reporters do skits it is an interesting choice of venue for mike pence to do this, but it does matter i think we should also note that, though truth may be coming to the surface in some venues, this is still coming a week or two after it's become that much clearer that donald trump still

has the republican party in his grip all the polls show him way up on governor desantis and others in all the key battleground states. we know cpac was a trump coronation, certainly a maga-friendly crowd. we've had evidence that, yes, another news network is still doing his bidding and trying to whitewash the darkest day of his term and, frankly, one of the darkest days in our nation's history. there's a long way to go before the republican party breaks free of donald trump. >> for sure. president joe biden will address the nation this morning about the government's response to last week's collapse of silicon valley bank, the second largest bank failure in united states history biden is expected to assure americans that, quote, their bank deposits will be there when they need them on friday, the country's 16th largest bank and one of the leading lenders in the tech sector was shut down by federal regulators its clients include the e-commerce company etsy, roku

and roblox signs of trouble emerged wednesday when the company announced plans to raise $2 billion to, quote, strengthen its financial position tech companies have been hit hard by layoffs in recent months, and svb indicated it had seen an increase in start-up clients pulling out their deposits in response to the company's ominous announcement, svb shares saw a massive sell-off by thursday morning, prompting the ceo to plead with investors to stay calm. his messages had the opposite effect by the end of thursday, shares had fallen by 60%. >> concerned customers lined up outside of bank locations. you talk about "it's a wonderful life," they wanted their money friday afternoon, banking regulators had seen enough, and they announced they were taking over svb's deposits. despite the historic collapse, janet yellen insisted yesterday the federal government would not

bail out svb >> i have been working all weekend with our banking regulators to design appropriate policies to address this situation. the american banking system is really safe and well capitalized. it's resilient we want to make sure that the troubles that exist at one bank don't create contagion to others that are sound >> that was a real concern yesterday. a concern after janet yellen's remarks, there had been a flurry of activity all weekend, but a of the remarks, the fear was you'd have first rerepublica gon down today, other banks going down around the country. there was a fear yesterday that

the white house wasn't going to move aggressively enough at the end of the day, they did, and they worked with other federal regulators to stop the contagion from spreading to first republic then to regional banks in the south, the midwest, across the country. it would have been a real nightmare. for now, it looks -- for now, it looks the crisis has been stemmed. if this sounds complicated, steve rattner says there's a movie you should see take a look. >> my husband hasn't worked in over a year, and i need money. >> how am i going to live until the bank opens >> i have doctor bills to pay. >> i need cash. >> i have to have -- >> how much do you need? >> hey i got $2,000 here's $2,000. this will title over when the bank reopens how much do you need >> $242. >> just enough to tide you over until the bank -- >> i'll take $242. >> there you are >> that'll close my account.

>> your account is still here. that's a loan. >> i always thought, you know, tom was just a deplorable creature come on, tom, you don't need $242 by the way, steve, you're right, all of those people looked like they were mid-level managers at roku and investment bankers across silicon valley. you called that right. before we get to exactly what happened, steve, i'd like you to follow up on just, again, while americans were enjoying their weekend, doing whatever they were doing, man, flurry of activity and a real fear that contagion could spread across regional banks across the country and take us back to 2008 talk about it. >> joe, that's the point i don't think regulators were concerned about the shareholders in svb or things like that they were concerned about one thing, which was that you would have more scenes like what you just showed from "it's a

wonderful life." you'd have a banking panic we are not in a 2008 situation here with the stresses, strains and losses on the entire financial system we have a few banks of which svb was certainly the poster child, that made a bunch of mistakes, got caught ahead of their skis and created this run that people were wondering, well, what would happen monday morning at first republic what would happen at some other banks if they didn't do something for svb? that's what drove this. >> i want to ask you, you say it was just these banks, one or two banks. obviously, it could have very easily spread. what i was hearing yesterday from people involved in talks is it could have spread from svb to first republic, to regions, to regional banks across america very quickly there could have been a run. "the wall street journal" this morning has this line which caught my eye, to suggest that

maybe it's not so limited. the rest of the banking system is on edge bankers that grew up in the easy money era are following the 2008 -- following the 2008 crisis failed to ready themselves for rates to rise again. when rates went up, they forgot the playbook steve, so many people that are running the bank industry, are higher ups in the bank industry, have never dealt with inflation before in their entire business career they've been dealing for, my god, at least 15 years with free money. historically low interest rates. they just didn't prepare for interest rates to do what interest rates always do inevitably, go back up so how do we know this is a limited crisis and it's not going to continue to spread as interest rates continue to rise and markets continue to go down? >> we don't know for sure. we don't know for sure, joe, but what this bank did was a classic

sort of mistake. if you go back to "it's a wonderful life," uncle billy lost the money in the lobby of the other bank in this case, the guys took all the depositors in-flows that came during the tech boom of 2020, 2021, and put a bunch of them into long-term securities the first thing that happens when interest rates rise is the value of long-term securities goes down. so then when depositors start to take their money out because of the tech unwind and capital coming out of the tech world, they didn't have the cash. they went to sell these securities they weren't worth what they thought they were worth. that word got out. then you have the scene we started with, which is everybody trying to get their money out. i think you'll see people pouring over other banks first republic's stock will open substantially down today the next bank on the list of ones people worry about, pack west bank corp, will open

substantially down today the key question will be at 9:00 this morning or when banks open, do depositors take money out of the banks? the others, we believe, are healthy. from a washington point of view, this is not just a failure of the management of svb. this is a regulatory failure most of what svb was doing was hiding in plain sight. you just had to really read their financial statements carefully. there's going to be a lot of questions about the regulators and where they were when this was going on. >> yeah. we'll be trying to figure out. you bring up uncle billy, thoroughly misunderstood character in "it's a wonderful life." poor uncle billy you don't know what we're talking about, do you? >> you made me watch a little of it. >> didn't watch much. >> i know. >> greatest movie ever. >> okay, we'll watch it again. >> rooting for you, mary jimmy stewart, my god, he's incredible donna reid take steve rattner's advice, see it you'll understand the banking

crisis, not that much better, but you will probably at the end of this 3-hour movie so let's talk, jonathan lemire, about the white house. you had janet yellen going, no bailouts no bailouts. we're not going to do that there really was feeling inside the white house and the treasury department, i'll just say, to some of the people i talked to, it's like, why should we bail out these young, silicon valley punks that took horrific risks on bitcoin, took horrific risks on all of these other start-ups and thought that money was -- i mean, there was that back and forth yesterday. at the end of the day, i think the pressure just kept building, and the dangers became too high. but talk about -- give us your reporting about what was going on and when joe biden finally made the decision to move forward to guarantee everybody

was going to get their money, that they were going to get their deposits. >> you're certainly right, dthat debate was held over the weekend as to what to do for this bank which clearly makes mistake. politically problematic, perhaps, clientele there, not the people you necessarily want to be seen as lending a hand to. but there was too much risk involved they couldn't -- this is still somewhat of a fragile economy in some ways. certainly a mixed bag. you have these booming jobs reports each month beating expectations of course, you have inflation high you have jerome powell expected to raise rates yet again when we hear from him later this month and there is, of course, we are just a few months away from what we expect to be president biden's re-election announcement you certainly don't want to do anything that could cause financial panic or concern they had to step in. jen psaki, we know we're going to hear from the president in a couple hours he's going to address the nation before heading to the west

coast. you played a role in communicating during the obama white house when they had to deal with the aftermath in the heart of '08/'09 financial collapse what should the president's message be from today? what sort of steady signals should the white house be trying to send? >> well, once the policy decisions have been made, which they were over the weekend, which you and steve spoke to, the key for the president is calming the public because as steve said, the banks are opening. the markets will be open what he needs to project to the public is, "we've got this we have a plan we made decisions. we are addressing this." that's what people need to hear from him it is important to know that president biden does nothing at 9:00 a.m he is a night owl. the fact he is doing this at 9:00 a.m. anyway speaks to how vital the white house recognizes this is to have his voice out there, conveying it to the american public. >> steve rattner, thank you very

much for coming on this morning charlie sykes, thank you, as well. ahead on "morning joe," is xi jinping right to name the united states as the force behind the so-called suppression of china ed luce joins us with his take on america's standoff with beijing. he'll also weigh in on the bbc's suspension of one of its highest profile anchors, now growing into a wider controversy that's threatening the outlet's replation. plus, the fighting in europe and troubling signs pointing to waning unity between the u.s. and ukraine. also ahead, our exclusive interview with the first lady of ukraine and former secretary of state, hillary clinton you're wind atching "morning jo" we'll be right back.

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this morning on this monday morning. joining us now, u.s. national editor at "the financial times," ed luce. good to have you with us. >> great to have you here. we want to talk about your column on china. very riveting. very riveting. first, let's talk about what happened to the bbc this past weekend. obviously, face d a lot of criticism after a public fight with one of its most popular sports hosts, gary lineker former soccer star turned broadcaster. a legend he tweeted criticism against england's conservative government's crackdown on immigration. lineker's tweet, seen here, calls the policy immeasurably cruel and uses language not dissimilar to what germany did in the '30s is what lineker said it's set off a national debate over free expression, influence of the role of a revered, if

beleaguered, public broadcaster in the new era of social media the controversy, ed, led to loud questions over bbc's close ties with britain's conservative party. lineker and other bbc hosts criticized the opposition labor party on social media without punishment. >> interesting. >> anyway, we could go on and on i thought it was fascinating, ed, they had to actually limit coverage yesterday because they faced a boycott from lineker's peers, premier league players refused to talk to the bbc you had some games where they just showed the images and there were no announcers. >> yeah. gary lineker is a beloved figure he's the highest paid broadcaster by the bbc because he's widely loved, widely trusted. this is a guy who played premier league football for 16 years and never got a yellow card.

i mean, the guy is seen as -- which is unheard of, you know, he's never fouled anybody. he's seen as a very decent, fair-minded person so when they suspended -- the bbc suspended him from his top show, "watch of the day," the rest of the crew and fellow presenters walked out. they couldn't run it except with silent clips he engenders so much solidarity. so i guess the bbc are now in negotiations with him about his right to free expression and whether he's going to curtail that as a condition for returning to the show. they have to get him back on the show the pressure is now moving onto the chairman of the bbc, richar sharp, who is a con sservative party donor. he also arranged a $1 million mortgage for boris johnson he is a friend of boris johnson. >> wow.

>> so the idea that the bbc is sort of beyond reproach, highly impartial, is under scrutiny from completely the other end, which is conservative influence. >> ed, we have breaking news right now, just over the wire. he has been reinstated he's returning to the airwaves, bbc announces, after a suspension i'll read briefly the statement here from bbc director general tim davey. gary is a valued part of the bbc and know what the bbc means to gary they say there will be a review of bbc's social media guidelines to address gray areas there within it's not clear yet this just broke as to what sort of negotiations may have happened behind the scenes, ed but he will be returning to the airwaves this weekend. >> i think that's expected but, nevertheless, very, very good news i mean, the important thing here is that he's not a politics reporter you know, there should be

different rules for people who are, after all, publicly employed, to stop them from airing their views on social media or elsewhere, to contaminate their reputation, which is a very important thing for being neutral. the guy is a sports presenter. you know, he's going to have views on things. there are other people, like jeremy clarkson, who have shows on bbc, who have very different them so i think gagging people is probably not going to succeed in the long run >> well, ed, your new column for "the financial times" is entitled "china is right about u.s. containment." you write, quote, this week, xi jinping went further than before in naming america as the force be behind the containment, encirclement andsuppression of china. though his rhetoric was provo provocative, it was not technically wrong. president joe biden is still officially committed to trying

to cooperate with china, but biden was as easily blown off course last month as a weather balloon. today's approach is containment-plus when xi talks about suppression, he means america's ban on advanced semiconductor exports to china since high-end chips are used for both civil and military purposes, the u.s. has grounds for denying china the moons to upgrade its military but the collateral effect is to limit china's economic development. you continue, there is no endgame to today's cold war. unlike the ussr, which was an empire in disguise, china inhabits historic boundaries and is never likely to dissolve. the u.s. needs a strategy to cope with a china that will always be there. >> well, last week, on thursday, when i was talking to admiral stavridis, talked about the

parallels in china's language and what we heard from japan leading up to world war ii, that the united states was trying to contain them and keep them sort of lined off in the eastern pacific -- or the western pacific. now, you have china complaining -- again, you brought up computer chips, but you could talk about the philippines, guam, nuclear subs in australia there is no doubt the united states is becoming more assertive in trying to contain china. >> there is. and the parallels are interesting, if a very, very chilling one of course, people talk about chips as today's oil, and it was the administration's cutting off of oil to japan that the japanese saw as their cause for war. yeah, the americans have been playing a very effective game.

the biden administration, we're going to see today with the deal in san diego you have the british prime minister, australian prime minister joining joe biden there at the naval base to launch, officially launch this nuclear submarine. we have japan agreeing, really changing its character, agreeing to -- announcing it is going to double its defense spending. we've got the philippines reopening naval bases for the united states to use of course, india closely working militarily with the quad countries of america, japan and australia. wherever xi jinping looks, what he sees is containment what he sees is encirclement he is not necessarily wrong. now, the fact that he is bringing this -- he is provoking this reaction from china's neighbors should not, i don't think, blind us to the fact that this is a very dangerous situation. dangerous situations require

talking. the united states is still, by far, the more powerful of these two countries, has hundreds of military bases all over the world. china has got one with 2,000 chinese military personnel there. the last time china invaded a country was 1979 in vietnam, and it got a bloody nose it withdrew. we need to keep things in perspective here my concern is not so much with the biden administration but with the rhetoric in his town. it's becoming warlike. it is bipartisan there is no peace faction in washington as you used to have with the business lobby the expectation of war can sometimes create its own reality. this is not a situation where america should be feeling weak when you feel strong, when you feel a sense of resolve, then

you feel able to talk, which is what i'd like to see happening i think that's true of the rest of the world, too. >> well, last week, we sat down with ukraine's first lady, olena za elenska and former secretaryo state, hillary clinton we asked madame zelenska is her country is getting what it needs from the united states and europe >> reporte >> translator: first of all, i'd like to thank you for the help we've received it's been right to give this help it is out of place for a president's wife to ask for weapons, but i'll ask. it's a salvation of people who are shelled by missiles, by iranian drones it's the salvation for our armed personnel on the front line. they are defending their country. and, of course, we must continue

with this help because any delay right now would be very dangerous. the second aspect of what we need is to hear us tell our stories to everyone who will hear them. we need to hear voices for ch change we need the voice of opinion leaders. still some people in the world believe it is not so simple, it is not so black and white, and you could have another opinion about the tragedy that is happening in ukraine this is a war of invasion, and that is it. >> madam secretary, you know better, i think, than anybody alive about part isanship in th united states and what it's cost our country. the ukrainian war has been one thing that's brought democrats and republicans together, for the most part. are you hopeful that that will continue despite the fact some house republicans are being

critical of the biden administration, even republicans supporting the war effort? >> well, i am hopeful that it continues, joe, because i think, as we just heard, this is a war of aggression and invasion the behavior of the invaders has been barbaric, and it really is a war for, not just the freedom of the ukrainian people, although that is first and foremost, it is a war for our values, for what we believe should be the birthright of every person in ukraine, in europe, in the united states, around the world so i want to under sscore, thats we support the courage and the extraordinary commitment of the ukrainian people, their government, their army, their citizens, we're not doing it just because it's the right thing to do, although it is. we're doing it because we have to draw this line and make it

very clear that in 2023, this kind of aggression cannot stand. >> we'll have much more on this interview ahead. we'll play the entire interview in our 8:00 a.m. hour of "morning joe." pretty remarkable. >> it really was ed luce, we heard what hillary clinton said still, the majority of policymakers in washington and elected leaders in washington certainly share her view, that this is a larger fight than just with ukraine itself. i'm curious, though, how are european leaders holding up a year plus into this war? >> they're holding up reasonably well i think it's been the case all along, poland and the baltic nations, places like estonia and the uk, are more gung-ho and have been supplying more weapons than, say, germany or france i think, if anything, if the europeans are starting to look at the republican party and the evolution, i mean, ron desantis

says refusal to be gung-ho on the ukraine situation. given that he is an expert sort of bellwether for where the heating heart of the coliseum is in his own party, that's an issue of concern the fact that the money that was passed, the $45 billion by congress for ukraine, is probably going to be running out in the fall, and the lease will expi expire ron desantis may be in the race at that point. we may get a moment of truth later in the year as to whether the republican party is as strong as members like mitch mcconnell claim it is. i'm not sure whether the europeans aren't right to be concerned about the future of the republican party and how they view putin. >> yeah, it'll be very

interesting to see if ron desantis jumps into the race, whether he follows donald trump's approach, where, basically, he is completely fine with russian aggression. i suspect in the marketplace of ideas, he's going to find that there are quite a few republicans that vote in primaries that don't want to see america surrendering across the world stage. we'll see. u.s. national editor at "the financial times," ed luce, thank you so much. >> thank you, ed. >> eddie glaude, i am curious, from your vantage point, we keep talking about the far-right trumpers and their reluctance. is there a concern, do you think, down the road from people on the left that the united states may be spending too much money in ukraine >> you know, i think so, joe i think, generally, there might be a concern around treasure and people we love being put at

risk there's a sense in which as long as we are invested in defending freedom abroad, we have to defend freedom at home we have to deal with our own issues, our own problems we're constantly coming up, are facing the claim that we don't have resources to address some of the deep, systemic problems that face the country. so we have to -- we're going to start hearing that, i think, in certain places we're already hearing it in certain places i suspect there is going to be a convergence at some point, but not at this point, joe. >> all right coming up, another person who was very close to former president donald trump expected to testify today before a manhattan grand jury we'll tell you who that is and why their cooperation is significant. plus, we'll play for you some of what ron desantis had to say to voters in iowa. speeches that focused heavily on his favorite culture wars. that's ahead on "morning joe." >> thanks, ron

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jen, very excited, you're launching your new show, "inside with jen psaki." one of your first guests is new york city mayor eric adams you caught up with him on the subway >> what kind of advice are you giving to him or other democrats running about how they should talk about crime in 2024 >> well, i think it's two different conversations. i think president biden is a blue collar president, like i like to lead i'm a blue collar man. he's a plain-talking producer. he has produced. it's unfortunate, the noise is getting in the way of what he has to do. this has been a president that has navigated us out of covid, navigated us out of the infrastructure bill. he just keeps putting points on the board. he needs to keep doing what he's

doing. but he is the key singer his backup singers need to get on key. >> backup singers. i don't know every member of congress likes to be called a backup singer, but it's all right. >> the rest of the conversation will air sunday with other interviews with house minority leader hakeem jeffreys and gretchen whitmer it streams on peacock. jen, looks so exciting. >> thank you i'm extremely excited about sunday, just six days to go. but i spent the whole afternoon with mayor adams we rode the subway we did talk about his advice for democrats on crime and how they talk about it, as you just saw we also talked about some of the policies he's put in place that have not been received completely well. more on that sunday, including his decision to clear homeless encampments and some of the comments he's made about guns and religion and schools

we also went to gracie mansion we made a smoothie he is big on health. he is big on mental health the kind of stuff we're hoping to show on the show starting this sunday is, you know, peeling the curtain back on people's lives, who they are, what makes them tick, asking them hard questions but hopefully people will learn more about the public officials they see every day. >> jen, congrats on the show we're excited about it. >> thank you. >> tell us more, beyond this first episode, your vision for the show as it ramps up in the weeks ahead. >> look, i'm both a policy nerd and a political nerd and wonk of both our goal for the show, my goal for the show, is every sunday at noon, people are going to tune in to learn something they didn't know before we're going to go deep on policy issues we're going to have long conversations with people. hopefully, viewers will also learn something they didn't know about people because i worked in politics for 20 years, and i know a lot of politicians, public figures are caricatured.

you only know a sliver about them, and i know there's a lot more below the surface saw a little about that with eric adams we'll do a weekend routine feature, hopefully, on both episodes, most shows beyond that, we're going to talk about the issues happening every day. >> can't wait. >> all right jen psaki, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> we look forward to that. >> it'll be great. ahead on "morning joe," we'll have the highlights from last night's history-making academy awards "morning joe" will be right back awh, use priceline. they have package deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it! ♪go to your happy price♪ ♪priceline♪ people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. ♪ customize and save. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

we even were able to deliver 50 illegal aliens to beautiful martha's vineyard. they said they were a sanctuary area >> i mean -- >> that is -- i'm taking a moment because i don't want to fall into the trap of saying

something. that is just gross. >> he wants to do things like that to shock people. >> that's right. >> i would say, if you're not somewhat offended by having refugees coming into a state, having migrants coming into a state, poor, hungry, tired migrants coming into a state and then lying to them, then putting them onto a plane and flying them out of the state, then bragging about it months later this is, like, how grotesque it was that you had a governor actually send migrants up to washington, d.c., and just dump them out on the street, outside the naval observatory on christmas eve. on a cold, cold christmas eve, to make a political point on christmas eve.

one of the most un-christlike things, i would think, if you actually read the new testament and believe what it says about helping the poor and the needy to do that for gesturing we're not talking policies i'm really conservative when it comes to borders, about border security if you want to come to america, do it the legal way. that's what i feel like, great that's right here. over here is basic humanity. the realities we face as a country, where, because we're such an incredible country, because we're such a gareat country, our problem is not russia's problem or china's problem. our problem is everybody wants to come to america everyone wants to live the american dream everyone wants to be here. that's our problem because we have such a great country. so we've got to figure out how to sort through this again, guy running for president

who is bragging about being cruel to 50 migrants because, you know, he thinks that he owned the libs in martha's vineyard. all he really did -- >> to a standing ovation. >> right all he really did was make those libss on ma thrtha's vineyard fl better about themselves, being able to help people in need. it's the antithesis of ronald reagan's approach, not just on immigration but on america, believing that america is a city shining brightly on a hill for all the world to see and a ronald reagan, eddie glaude, who, at the end of his administration, in his farewell address to americans, said, "when we stop letting ting immt into this country, that's the time we become an old, withered nation, and we become weaker as a nation." now, i know you have so many

disagreements with ronald reagan's policy. >> right. >> which is exactly why i bring it up. for you, even ronald reagan understands the importance of immigrants to this nation's story. here, you have a guy who, i'm sure, you know, he talks about the reagan library, and he is bragging about being cruel to migrants it's like, i'm going to be cruel to immigrants because it may own some libs up in martha's vineyards. who knows? if i'm lucky, maybe some people in the press will condemn me for doing this doesn't upset me it's not me that he's impacting. it's not people in the press he's impacting it's poor migrants and their children and the fact that he is bragging all these months later about being cruel to the poorest and the weakest among us, it says a

lot as you try to look into the soul of ron desantis >> absolutely, joe and it shows the distance between the time when ronald reagan made the statement you just quoted and now. in some ways, it is not only cruel, it is monstrous you know, it's this kind of contradiction that has defined, in some ways, the country. there's ellis island, bring me your -- the notion of america as an immigration nation. underneath it has always been this intense nativism, this ugly underbelly of the country. what we see are those who appeal to those uglier angels, right, out in front today they're trying to, in some ways, mobilize hatred and fear and grievance for their own political ends it's horrible in so many ways, john it's horrible. >> it's interesting. donny deutsch ais with us it's interesting, donny. you go back through history, and some of the people that are

doing this now are the very people whose parents and grandparents and great grandparents had it done to them 100 years ago, 150 years ago whether they were italians coming to america, whether they were the irish, whether they were jews, whether they were slavs. wherever they came from across america, some of the very people now being so cruel are the ones whose parents and grandparents faced this columbus day which, of course, has created a culture war, columbus day, originally, was created to try to force people to be more accepting of italian americans. because italian americans were being treated so who rihorrificy now, let's look at the people attacking immigrant, who are

turning their backs on what ronald reagan said, who turn their back on what the statue of liberty encryption says, not only to us but to the entear wo entire world by the way, these cruel people, they're the past it's not like they're going to win day. they lose every year you know, donny, and i'm sorry, i'll be quiet here in a second, but this is an important point to you because you study campaigns and have for years they lied about leprosy coming over the border. leprosy coming up to america in caravans in 2018 they lost that election. they lied about caravans coming up in 2020 with the sick and these monstrous gang members were going to come to america. that didn't work in fact, every time they've used this argument after 2016,

they've lost time and time again. so that's why -- and even during donald trump's administration, his immigration policies weren't popular with the majority of americans. this is a losing issue it is crucial tycruelty to get portion of republicans to vote for you. at the end of the day, it's a loser. you lose campaigns being cruel. >> the last sentence you said is where i was going to start forget policy. forget the specific incident what a joyless character, ron desantis is. what a dour, sour, nasty, mean, and if you go back in history through every election, usually -- and jen would know this and everyone else who has ran elections. the candidate you want to have a beer with versus the other one is the one who wins. the one you want to have a cup of coffee, the one you want to invite to your living room this is a very obnoxious, nasty, as you used the word, cruel man.

policies aside, overall persona, to give an example of this guy as the entire country is worried this weekend about banks going under, his answer was, let me attack, let's get the libs out there and say, the reason the bank got into trouble is they were paying too much attention to woke issues that's insanity. you have average americans worried about banks and getting their money, you'll say, the reason this happened is because of wokeness? that doesn't work. people have a b.s. detecter, and i think, joe, you mentioned this many times on the show, as this campaign starts to get heated up and as people see more and more of ron desantis, they'll see that cruel is a losing formula. >> he's not been nationally vetted yet, and he's been effective for pulling the levers of government in florida we'll see if it expands beyond tallahassee. joe and mika, twactually, it waa microcosm of where the republican party is right now, this desantis appearance no discussion of any real world issues in terms of the economy,

in terms of, to donny's point, the banking crisis, nothing of that it was all pure culture war. everything was culture war the entire speech he gave there. the same speech he's been giving day after day as he gives his book tour, which is perceived as a soft launch to his run in 2024 poll after poll shows that's out of step with what americans actually want them to be discussing. >> well, it's just not enough to win. you do talk about tr trans swimmers, like, 98% of the time in your campaign if you want to. you're not begigoing to win you can talk about being cruel to migrants. you're not going to win. you can say the united states military the weak, as republicans do, because they're woke that's just a lie. our military is stronger than it has ever been in relation to the rest of the world. stronger than it has ever been to not -- you know, when you're talking about woke issues as the banks are melting down and

you're blaming it on wokeness, you've really missed it. the wokeness, that's an issue that americans care about over here they'll tack lk about it. they care a hel l of a lot more about whether they can get their money out of an atm machine, whether the banks are going to collapse again, it's shortsighted my gosh, i repeat myself, they just keep losing speaking of losing, former president donald trump is going to be in iowa today. over the weekend, he was meeting with lawyers to talk about his strategy in the district attorney's investigation into hush money to stormy daniels it comes as another person with firsthand knowledge of the case is going to testify today. we're going to get legal analysis of what that means in a moment most legal analysis across idealogical spectrum says not good news for donald trump first, let's bring in senior business analyst and host of the

"11th hour" on msnbc, stephanie ruhle. i know it is early for you this would be like me being up at 11:00 on your show. you're perfect to talk about this talk about what a mild weekend it was, the ups and downs, and how were worried we might see another 2008. >> this is extraordinary people are still worried, but they shouldn't be. the government stepped in and said, hold on a moment, everyone with an account with silicon valley bank will have access to all their money. not just $250,000, which is what the fdic ensures you up to you'll have all of your money. that has given the markets, that's given the american people this huge sigh of relief there was panic. remember, joe, panic bejgets panic. this was not a situation where there should be contagion. silicon valley bank, the premier bank that banks for the start-up community in silicon valley. if you were a start-up, you had

to business them you weren't cool if you were doing business with jpmorgan in hindsight, it was a mistake they forced the hand of a lot of start-ups to do business with them covid comes, there's a huge rush into investing in start-ups. this bank finds itself with billions and billions of dollars in be deposits makes a huge mistake, a huge mistake, and invests in mortgage-backed securities and treasuries they didn't even have a chief risk officer for a huge period of time. so they basically got caught in a bad position last week, they realized, we're going to go out and raise some money. they did it in a terrible, public way, horrible communications they spooked the market. loads of their depositors, loads of the start-ups pulled their money out. it forces a run on the bank. the concern all weekend was, is this going to happen to other banks? look at twitter. the panic was beginning. more and more people were worried, and the government has to step in now, there are going to be a lot

of questions about why now, why this bank? what was their behavior? who are the executives in this bank, that this was okay there's going to be a lot of people around the cowan tuntry saying, why did they get bailed out? they have to answer for it. >> yeah. of course, they are going to have to answer for it. regulators are going to have to answer for why they allowed them to be as reckless was they did let's be clear, stephanie. like me, i know you have a lot of phone calls all weekend a lot of panicked investors were talking about taking all their money out of first republic bank, other regional banks. >> mm-hmm. >> i'll tell you what, after janet yellen spoke yesterday, the panic picked up. it didn't sound like she was going to be aggressive they thought she was moving too slowly on this but i talked to quite a few pop people, talked about taking all of their money out of first republic bank and predicted

first republic would go down today. other regional banks would go down today the contagion could spread just like that. now, it's not going to, most likely, because the government did the right thing. but can you explain how quickly -- you let that horse out of the barn, you don't get it back in >> 100%. >> you'll have a meltdown. >> friday, saturday, sunday, we were all getting calls from people going, hold on a second i'm with first republic, i'm with signature bank, and the government slipped the signature bank thing in in the end of their statement last night oh, by the way, we've taken them over, too. as soon as people start to get worried, right, we take for gr granted, oh, you put money in the bank, it's safe. you want to be sure banks following this do the right thing. if people start to believe, oh, the government will come in no matter what, they shouldn't assume that. banks should act more responsibly. there should be real risk management out there because as soon as people start to get worried, they're going, you know what, i'll take my

money out of first republic or this regional bank or that one, and i'll put it with the big guys we also don't want that. we don't want complete concentration, that every american has all of their money, which is one of three large banks. you want to figure out what you can do to support the small and regional banks while, at the same time, joe, you have to make sure there's smart regulation. 2018, we saw part of dodd/frank get rolled back. part of that made sense. if you were a small, regional bank, you were strangled with regulation while the big banks can afford it. it's a balancing act it's tough to hear from lawmakers who, on one hand, are saying, we need no big government we need no regulation. let these banks do their thing let them be bankers. as soon as the i coyou-know-wha hits the fan, the same lawmakers said, we have to rescue people we obviously need to protect the american people, but what we need in all of this, joe, is smart, thoughtful, consistent regulation the best quote i heard this

weekend was, there's no atheist in fox holes and there's no libertarians in a financial crisis, right? everybody says, we don't want regulation we're good let it roll. when there is a problem, they say, yo, government, help me out. >> is there anything in the rollback of dodd/frank, that it affected this directly where you could say, donald trump said this, and this would not have happened if dodd/frank had not been rolled back in any way. >> there is not a straight line that said x cause d y. however, when you allow more proprietary trading, when you take the gaties down and say, yu don't have to have high capital requirements, when banks roll the dice with their money, the one thing is, after 2008, they made sure there wasn't going to be concentration to one specific customer or one specific asset class. what they didn't think about was, what happens if all your depositors are in one industry, which is basically the case of silicon valley bank. the question now is, who are those executives who are the officers

not just, oh, shareholders are sol right now. how about the last few years, the amount of money those executives were paying it is going to be giant numbers. >> what hasn't been talked about is, this is all an incident of bad management these are some really dumb executives versus the entire banking system rattner talked about that the first hour. >> if eddie glaude had poor management and ran a bookstore in princeton, new jersey, and was a lousy manager, he'd go out of business and get nothing. the question is, why is it giant corporations do, and so how do we regulate for that >> absolutely. >> stephanie -- >> i have to say, though, the thing is, stephanie, you look at this bank. as you said, this was the bank, like, at the center of america's entrepreneurial engine they fueled start-ups. they fueled the american dream >> that's a great thing. >> they fueled the future. >> that's a great thing. >> no, that is a great thing but, again, there was a

recklessness alongside of that you just wonder, the political pressure -- and maybe this is why the biden administration was dragging their feet a little bit. i say dragging their feet. i mean, they made the decision when they needed to make the decision, but it looked like they were going to drag their feet i had somebody on the inside tell me it might not be until monday or tuesday. i was like, dude, you've got until china's markets open tonight, right >> joe, they didn't drag their feet they had -- i mean, obviously, during the weekend, i am sure they were trying to find a buyer for this bank. they were trying to find all sorts of solutions i wouldn't say they dragged their feet this was the weekend to get it done at the end of the day, they got it done. but they will have a lot of questions to answer for. >> i was going to say, one of the problems they had was, this was a silicon valley group that was throwing billions at bitcoin, that was making one reckless claim after another,

right? that increased the pressure on them to not be seen as bailing out these people who had been reckless over the past several years. >> but there's also little, tiny start-ups, little individuals that have their money with banks. that money should be secure. it just should be. >> exactly. >> yes stephanie ruhle, thank you very much we'll be watching "11th hour" weeknights on msnbc. now to this, attorneys for former president trump were in florida over the weekend to discuss strategy in the manhattan district attorney's investigation into hush money paid to adult film actress stormy daniels trump attorney joe takapena spoke ahead of the meeting, denying trump ever had an affair with daniels. >> what? >> he said the -- >> i thought he already admitted he did. >> -- attorneys had no plans to meet with alvin bragg's office which has convened a grand jury to look into the payment made to

daniels. trump's lawyers have not indicated whether trump himself be accept the d.a.'s offer to testify before the grand jury this week. takepena also said the prosecution of a case like this would be unprecedented claiming the case has -- >> all right, all right. come on. >> -- massive problems. >> this is -- >> boy -- >> if a member of congress had done this, they'd be in jail a couple years ago >> is that a sound bite? >> michael cohen will be testifying before the grand jury let's bring in the current d.a. of palm beach county, dave aronberg dave, everything that donald trump's lawyer said -- well, i won't say everything isn't true, but a lot of it doesn't pass the sniff test. >> is he new to the team >> he cycles them in and out >> i think i know this

gentleman. >> if you -- if a member of congress paid hush money to a porn star a week before his election, and cycled it to go around -- through a third party, then report it, they'd be in jail >> good morning, joe and mika. you can hear the criticism from these folks saying, this is small ball small potatoes as you pointed out, this payment is what sent michael cohen to federal prison trump then was an unindicted co-co co-conspirator he was saved from prosecution by doj internal policy not to indict a sitting president. >> hold on a second. let's underline that fact, dave. say it again somebody has already been sent to jail for this crime

>> correct he'll be the key witness against donald trump at trial. he is testifying, reportedly, before the grand jury today. that's the last step before, in my ind, an indictment of the former president they invited him to testify before the grand jury, donald trump, and there is a 0% chance that he will do so if he is caught lying, it's another federal charge against him. anything he can say at the grand jury will be used against him at a later trial. he won't get immunity because he is the target of the investigation. people think, hey, the problem is, this is so small, we shouldn't indoict a former president. but, look, no one is above the law. remember, it's trump's brand, it's his appeal that he breaks norms. he has only himself to blame for the fact he's normalize behavior that used to shock the conscience locker up, remember that phrase? that's one of the things he

normalized it was demanding your political rivals be prosecuted before that, it was never part of the lexicon in a sense, he is hoisted by his own pretard, which is a line from shakespeare also, beware the ides of march it'd be ironic if he was indicted on the day that befell julius caesar. >> hey, i want to bring up a point, guys. we talked about michael cohen went to jail for this. michael cohen was the messenger, not even the beneficiary he was not behind this the guy that was even one step removed from this went to jail you know, i've spent a bunch of days with michael, and he's been waiting for this day i mean, because his entire thing is what we're saying today, why am i the guy going to jail for this how about the guy that was really behind it, the guy that benefitted, the guy that i got the direction from michael cohen has been waiting a long time for this day. >> indeed.

this case, this investigation has been referred to as the zombie theory because it won't go away. cohen testified 19 times before the d.a. now, here it is, after starts 1 and stops, five years later, looks like this is finally going to happen. i was surprised. i didn't think it was coming i thought thris is the fourth best case against the president. number one is the mar-a-lago documents. two is full towtoncounty, find e the votes. this is fourth you're relying on michael cohen, an imperfect witness because he is a convicted felon and has an ax to grind, but i think he is credible it'sal also relying on an unted statute. it is only a misdemeanor if you falsify business records it's a mfelony to conceal anothe

crime. what would that be campaign finance violation that'd be a federal violation. can state prosecutors piggy-back on federal law we'll see. it is an untested legal theory, to do something unprecedented in american history there are a lot of questions. >> you raised a lot of the concerns there, including the cohen credibility issue and the fact he is still giving in interviews on a daily basis, bashing donald trump, understandable but perhaps not helpful to the legal proceedings. let's say a charge comes in the next couple weeks, imminent is the word used in "the new york times," if this were to happen, walk us through what you think the time line of the prosecution would be we know trump has the ability to slow things down because, of course, this is all happening against the backdrop of his presidential campaign. >> yeah. the trump legal tactic is delay, delay, delay he'll try to push this out as

far out toward 2024 and beyond he believes if he can become president again, he'll be immune though this is a state prosecution and it's pardon proof. you can't pardon yourself from a state criminal case. now, we're in uncharted territory here but here's the interest thing to watch for, jonathan, what happens if trump is indicted in new york or atlanta, and then it's time to extradite him now, ron desantis, the governor, can try to delay or even stop the extradition of donald trump. you can see ron desantis being out there saying, "stop, do not extradite him. we are not going to allow him to leave florida. we're hnot going to allow him t leave florida. no one wants trump indicted more than desantis. this sets up an unbelievable political situation you can only invent in movies could be up to the florida governor whether trump gets extradited

if not, trump cuould be a prisoner in his own home if he travels out of state, he could be picked up we're in uncharted territory here. >> yeah. >> we are. that is very potentially dramatic state attorney for palm beach attorney, dave aronberg, thank you very much for coming on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," march madness is here. steve kornacki will be at the big board to break down the men's and women's brackets as schools from across the country prepare for a shot at basketball's national championship you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. now, there's skyrizi. ♪♪ with skyrizi, most people who achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months... had lasting clearance through 1 year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections, or a lower ability to fight them, may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. ♪nothing is everything♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save.

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what's when cheating is the norm college student aces are cheatit massive levels, with a student saying, quote, it's a disadvantage not to cheat. thank you so much for being with us horrifying stuff for parents. >> i know. >> there's so many things here, including a.i. apps that allow students who know how to use them to put in the right questions and come up with term papers talk about your article. how did the pandemic make cheating so much more prevalent on campus? >> thank you so much for having me we think of cheating as the exception to the rule, but, increasingly, it's becoming the rule that is because of the incentives at play professors are innocentivized t keep their head down, get tenure students take the path of least resistance to their high-paying job so they can pay down the debt they took on to go to

college. colleges are motivated by rankings, tuition dollars, grant dollars. you have this perfect storm, where professors feel hugely demoralized. they're treating students more like customers than students at the end of the day, like joe said, i had a student tell me that she's getting screwed over for not cheating at the same time, i talked to a community professor who said the students are like tyrants. he didn't get into academia to be a cop it is a pretty dark situation out there. >> eddie, you're a professor who cares more about tenure, we know [ laughter ] >> the shots you were taking at eddie. >> i didn't know i was at a table with all ivy league men. i would have edited the piece a little. >> you're right to describe the market pressures which evidence themselves in different ways, particularly around competition, not only to get in but how one performs while you were there. what is the nature of assessment here, though it seems to me, as things have changed, whether it be chat gpt

or the market pressures, it seems universities and colleges have to figure out how to do their work differently i have to figure out how to assess whether the students are learning material differently. what do you think about what this suggests about universities in the 21st century? >> yeah. one vside of ait is assessmenan the other is what is college for? it is not for students to learn deeply and differently it is a contractual relationship, to get a credential, so they can get a spouse and have a fancy life or they can get a good job. that's not a bad thing, but students, especially on elite campuses, don't see cheating as something that is a moral wrong. >> you know, eddie, i wanted to follow up with you on this as a professor, you can help us out. it is so concerning, where you

have professors who are concerned about their evaluations, especially professors who aren't tenured, and i've heard this from not only professors but also students, associate professors, where it's almost like the students are customers i know i'm an old guy from state school, but we weren't the customers. we were the students and, you know, when a professor talked, we sat there and we wrote notes and would have a good, open debate. but i never knew a professor in undergrad at alabama or at law school at florida who gave a damn about my valuation. they were going to teach their skour course, and i was going to learn it if i didn't do well on the exams, they'd give me cs, and i did, often. >> you sound like you own a

rolodex. no, expansion at colleges and universities, it's happening at the level of administration, student services, there is this idea that pbutts in seats defin whether or not departments are funded, how your classes are populated. how you're evaluated impacts how you're assessed as you move up the ranks. what is interesting, there is a correlation, i think, people our openness to lielies, right, ande way in which we're looking at this, suzy supposedly, universities and colleges are the last bastion of liberalism, where people are virtue signaling now, these people don't give a damn about cheating. the notion of the honor code, of what it means to be a kind of thoughtful human being is under attack, under pressure a number of different sectors. joe, it has something to do with how we deliver to the folks who are paying increasingly high

amounts of tuition they want their money's worth. we have to deliver for them. >> yeah. >> with those pressures, suzy, the students are paying so much, astronomical the cost of college tuition far, far eclipsed the rate of inflation over the last few decades. there is this pressure that transaction to get the dloiplom to pay off the loans you mentioned a.i., chat gpt, other things making cheating easier, and perhaps professors turning a blind eye toward it. what are schools that do care about this, what steps are they trying to take >> i think it is too early to say whether a.i. is going to topple academia. some of the professors i talked to talked about it like the final nail in the coffin other professors described it sort of like, you know, any type of cheating. if a student wants to learn, they'll learn. if they want to cheat, they're going to cheat. >> right. >> i think, you know, with chat

gpt, and this is a holdover from the pandemic, is that it's become compassionate to have endlessly lax standards, to extend those deadlines, to, you know, not really bust a student and certainly not go to war with these ballooning bureaucracies on campuses. harvard has as many undergraduates at administrators stanford is not far behind i wouldn't blame a teacher for turning a blind eye. i don't know how a.i. will affect higher education. i do know it islandlanding on campus at an inopportune time. >> i was talking to a kid from harvard who said colleges across the country are virtual now. this will be a problem in the workforce. there's not as much human contact. you're not eye to eye. it allows for, in the workplace, also, lax behavior and inappropriate behavior i just think this is going to be a long-term effect in academia, workplace, when there's not eyeball to eyeball it is becoming more and more accepted it is something i worry about a lot. >> yeah.

no doubt about it. i just had to look s suzy said that everybody was -- she was around the table with leaguers i was sure that, like, lemire went to a good catholic college or something i look, and i see he earned a bachelor's degree in history from colombia. my goodness. you were right, suzj. >> i kept my mouth shut during your ivy league diatribes recently >> we have the ivy league schools for the populists. we need to do it for our roundtables now. >> do the pennants no graduate degree, i will say we should. >> suzy, i love so many of your columns. i want to ask you this, though, while i have you here, and while we're on this subject. eddie talked about with you all the competition for the money,

getting people in the seats, how much the cost of tuition has exploded, which is so obscene, how expensive it is. so obscene by the way, yes, that is fueled by an out-of-control student loan system that needs to be completely take down and reformed from the ground up. so middle class americans can afford going to college. but, suzy, so i went on that rant to talk about another part that's really disturbing me. i've seen over the past several years kids desperately trying to get into colleges that, five years ago, the door would have been open and they would have been waved right into. something really strange is happening. kids with 4.0s, kids that are, like, the top 98% of s.a.t. scores, kids that have come up with scientific discoveries.

one kid in boston came up with this remarkable discovery at a science consortium resumes that would get you into any university on earth five years ago is now getting you rejected >> sure. >> what's going on on the front end here that we don't understand >> yeah, well, i think, in a way, it's something positive, more high schoolers than ever see it as a chance to go to college, and the competition is going to be more fierce. columbia university, your alma mater, got rid of the s.a.t. rob henderson said, it might do better to get rid of legacy admissions before the s.a.t. that's a really good point you know, i think competition is worse than ever, and people are seeing the value of their degree beco becoming degraded in terms of the content they're learning joe, i wouldn't be surprised if you see people gravitating away from higher education and towards trade schools, specialized crafts, using

courses online from the best professors in the world. of course, you wouldn't want a doctor or pilot performing their job without the requisite training but there was a great piece in "the washington post" -- or "the new york post" dropping out of school and going to trade school i think more will take that lead. >> you don't want a doctor or a talk show host doing something . come back soon. >> thank you. we'll get reaction from the silicon valley bank collapse from a member of the finance committee. republican senator bill cassidy. can't wait to hear what the season senator has to say. and highlights from the history-making academy awards. "morning joe" coming right back. [alarm] >> instructor: veer right.

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♪ taking a look at l.a it's 4:46 a.m. on the west coast. it's a city recovering from hollywood's biggest night, as the 95th annual academy awards honored the industry's best for the work on the big screen kaylee he we have more on the history-making moments. >> reporter: hollywood's big e night did not disappoint from the fashion to the musical performances ♪ >> eject, eject! >> reporter: to host jimmy kimmel crash-landing onto the stage. but the biggest winner of the night, the quirky sci-fi film "everything everywhere all at once," which took home seven oscars, including best picture ask and best director. my ichelle yeoh becoming the fis asian actress to win best

actress in a leading role. >> for all the little boys and girls looking like me watching tonight, this is a bee acon of hope and possibilities >> reporter: her co-stars, ke huy quan and jamie lee curtis sweeping the supporting actor category. >> i spent a year in a refugee camp, and, somehow, i ended up here on hollywood's bhiggest stage. this is the american dream >> i know it looks like i'm standing up here by myself, but i am not i am hundreds of people. we just won an oscar together! my mother and my father were both nominated for oscars in different categories i just won an oscar. >> who would want me to be a part of their life >> reporter: an emotional brendan fraser hooking the best actor oscar for his role in "the whale. >> i started in the industry 30

years ago, and it didn't come easily to me i wanted to say thank you for this acknowledgment. ♪ >> reporter: also making history, the song from "rrr" which became the first indian film song to win an oscar. ♪ lift me up ♪ >> reporter: it beat out super bowl halftime star rihanna, nominated for "lift me up" from the witakanda forever soundtrac co-star. >>they became friends, who we'll always remain hopelessly devoted to >> oh, wow. >> reporter: as for last year's shocking oscar slap involving will smith and chris rock, oscar host jimmy kimmel made sure to put out a fair warning. >> we have strict policies in place. if anyone in this theater

commits an act of violence at any point during the show, you will be awarded the oscar for best actor and permitted to give a 19-minute long speech. coming up next, we're helping you get your brackets ready. steve kornacki is here to break down all things march madness. straight ahead

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straight year, 16th time overall. our attention now to the upper right quadrant and the second overall number one seed headed to midwest region, the houston cougars, the overall number one seed is the alabama crimson tide for the first time in school history they've earned a one seed in this ncaa tournament 29 wins to set a school record. >> the alabama crimson tide is the number one overall men's seed alabama secured the top spot on selection sunday after winning the s.e.c. regular season, and tournament titles. but the season that led to alabama's first ever top seed designation has been clouded by a criminal case involving a former tide player indicted on capital murder charges with ties to star freshman brandon miller. that's obviously going to be a big story line going into the tournament but let's basketball right now with steve kornacki, he's over at the big board steve, go of through the list.

>> the bracket, the field is set for the men's and women's tournament preliminary action on the men's side, tuesday, wednesday thursday, though, is when that 64-team bracket is set and all the madness of march begins. you heard from the selection show who the top seeds are region by region here, you mentioned alabama, the crimson tide, the number one overall seed, all the off the court drama that they've had, they did have a very impressive performance in the s.e.c. tournament over the weekend, first time they've ever been a number one seed to get to the final four, to get out of this region, look out, they have to face potentially arizona, maybe baylor baylor won the national title a couple years ago you always never sleep on virginia they're in that south region as well the other number one seed, houston, houston, the cougars here, bringing back memories the dies of fight slamma in the 1980s, number one seed if they

can get to the final four, the final four will be held in houston. also injury questions here, houston's star player held out of their championship game yesterday, they were blown out by memphis in that game. what's his status going to be for the tournament question mark there. kansas, the defending national champion here, a number one seed in the west region only twice in the last 50 years has the champion successfully defended its title duke in 1992, florida in 2007. can kansas do that in 2023 the fourth number one seed it is purdue you saw them dominate in the big ten conference tournament, although it got scary final moments yesterday against penn state. they'll try to come out of the east region here those are the four number one seeds. a couple of trends to keep in mind, the 1 versus 16 matchups, i know if you like cinderellas, it's tempting to take the 16s. the record, since they went to the 64-team field for the 16 seeds against the 1 seeds, 1 and

147. anyone remember the one who won? it was -- somebody does, who does >> virginia lost. >> virginia. >> yeah, virginia lost to umbc, the retrievers of maryland, baltimore county in 2018 princeton almost did it in 1989, they fell a point short against georgetown so be careful of those 16 seeds against the 1 seeds. if you're tempted. but if you do like an underdog in 12 of the last 14 tournaments at least one number 12 seed has won in the first round against a 5 seed that's sort of been upset central there in the first round, and don't be too heavy with the chalk either because only once in a modern era of this tournament, which started in 1985, the modern era of 64 teams, only once have all four number 1 seeds actually made it to the final four. that was back 30 years ago in 1993 that's the story on the men's side you take a look at the women's side here, and it is all about this team in the upper left,

south carolina, the south carolina gamecocks are undefeated, the defending national champion and the sort of balance of power in women's college basketball, we've seen over the last half decade, has shifted. it used to be yukon, youon yukon is still very much a factor they're a 2 seed in this ncaa tournament here, but south carolina over the last five or six years has become the dominant force the women's side. they are seeking to repeat as champions and not just that, but to close out if they could do that in undefeated season. >> steve, i got that piece of trivia right my brother is a virginia graduate he remembers their first 1 exit, but went on to win the national title next year. eddie is going to talk about crimson. clerical error give us a sleeper or two here. thinking about brackets this week on the men's side, tell us if there's a team or two you really like. >> it's this -- this is going to sound crazy. i understand because i'm going to give you a

sleeper that is the most famous name in all of men's college basketball, or one of the most famous names, and yet they're a fifth seed, duke i think duke is a sleeper in this year's tournament, if you can believe it their coach retired last year, new coach this year, middle of the season, things were looking shaky for them, the acc where nay play, one of the weakest years the acc has had. duke won nine straight, stormed through the acc conference tournament there's a real opportunity for duke yet purdue is this team, we've seen them with the top seed, one of the top seeds so many times over the last 40 years, and they haven't, since 1980, been able to make a final four so you wonder, you know, the history there with purdue, the other team down here, though, to keep an eye on too, marquette. marquette won the big east over the weekend, they're the 2 seed in the east region marquette just plays a

smothering defense i watched them play xavier over the weekend. marquette would shut them down the one game i'm looking most forward to in the first round, yukon and iona, which is coached by the legend, rick patino he gets a shot taking a small school against a big east team the big east power in the yukon huskies. >> steve, i made a mistake, i forgot we were a 13 seed when we upset ucla in 1996 a team in the women's bracket, princeton's women's team is 10 scheduled to play north carolina state, who's the sleeper in the women's bracket? i know we're going to move forward after the first round. >> the tale -- i went the wrong way on this, trying to call the women's bracket up and i was somehow going backwards on this. take a lack at the women's bracket here, no, you've noticed there are a couple schools here

that have both the men's team and the women's team qualifying in the tournament here so you mentioned -- you mentioned the princeton on the women's side but the other number one seeds here, i talk about south carolina, you talk about yukon, yukon while they haven't won a national title since 2016 they've been there in the final four so just like i say is duke, you know, a big name sleeper in the men's side, is yukon a big name sleeper to win the title on the women's side i know that's a strange thing to say given the history. stanford remains a big power on the women's side, another number 1 seed obviously virginia tech has made quite a bit noise this year, the other 1 seed there on the women's side keep an eye on them. as well, also indiana, you know, might have the best combination here in terms of the men's team, seeded fourth, the women's team seeded number 1. so indiana could do damage potentially in both tournaments. >> steve kornacki, thank you so much greatly appreciate it. and still ahead this hour, our exclusive conversation with the

first lady of ukraine, and former secretary of state hillary clinton. it was a remarkable joint interview. but first, mike pence speaks out again against his old boss mika >> former vice president mike pence offering his sharpest criticism yet of former president donald trump over the january 6th insurrection pence made the remarks on saturday at the annual gridiron dinner, a closed door, off-camera event, attended by politicians and journalists, in the nation's capital speeches at that event usually take a humorous tone, where politicians poke fun at each other. but people at the dinner reported the tone turned serious when pence turned to january 6th. pence said, in part, quote, president trump was wrong. i had no right to overturn the election and his reckless words endangered my family and everyone at the capitol that

day, and i know history will hold donald trump accountable. he continued quote, make no mistake about it, what happened that day was a disgrace, and it mocks decency to portray it any other way. okay we will note that despite those comments pence has so far refused to testify under oath. okay, so history will hold him accountable. >> right. >> but nobody will right now what is he saying? >> he's saying he's not going to testify under oath before all the investigative bodies that are trying to actually hold donald trump accountable for those things that mike pence -- >> pence refused to testify before the january 6th committee, saying publicly that he -- the committee had, quote, no right to his testimony. but the gridiron dinner was. he currently is fighting a subpoena to testify in connection with p special counsel jack smith's federal investigation into trump's

efforts to overturn the 2020 election as well as the former president's mishandling of classified documents found at mar-a-lago. >> well, and -- >> very interesting. >> and this is more of the same, mika, where we saw kevin mccarthy scream to donald trump on january 6th to stop the rioters, they were his people, and it was all on him. we saw him go to the house floor the next day and do it you have these republicans that want to have it both ways. listen, i'm very glad mike pence said what mike pence said at the gridiron it is there. it now is in the history books and we know about it but i'm just -- >> at a comedy dinner? i mean, really >> i don't understand why they can't just tell the american people the truth you saw -- that's not in vogue right now on a lot of networks, not in vogue for a lot of

politicians, i should say for a lot of cable news hosts at other networks but when you want to hear the truth about donald trump from top republicans these days, you just can't expect to hear it in the light of day instead maybe some will say it in whispered off-the-record conversations, where donald trump is dismissed with contempt as a liar or a loser or a cancer on this party. or maybe you may hear it from mike pence, but only when he's off camera at the gridiron club. like all of these republicans that attack donald trump off the record, but won't say the truth about him on the record, on camera the former vice president wants to have it both ways telling the truth about a man who threatened his life, and his family's life, but not actually saying it on tv. our charlie sikes to the very

investigative committees, and investigators, that could hold him accountable for this extraordinarily terrible behavior that mike pence himself is now condemning with the harshest words. >> well, it was profiles and half courage, wasn't it? which we've gotten used to from mike pence, you know and the irony, of course, is that this is why he has zero chance of winning the republican nomination you know, despite all of this. he got a standing ovation from many members of the club, i understand but there's probably no focus group that's left representative of the republican voters right now than the media crowd in washington, d.c. so he's willing to go halfway. he's not willing to testify. but the fact that he is willing to call out donald trump, that he is willing to talk about decency in relationship to what happened on january 6th is the reason why he is disqualified as a republican nominee because

this is the republican party this is the republican base. you think -- you know, one of the questions you have to ask yourself, is the former vice president of the united states why is he not not one of the top runners, and why is there no prospect at all he's going to end up with this nomination? it's because he was willing to go halfway and condemn donald trump. but now he's in this no man's land where he's condemned donald trump so he's going to be cast out by the magaverse, yet he is not willing to testify he is not willing to have the courage of his own convictions when it comes to denouncing this yeah, 1 1/2 cheers, but ultimately sort of pathetic. >> again so glad he said it but you're right, very sad he can't say it on camera and genjen psaki, let's forget about what's right and wrong in terms of mike pence, and let's talk about what helps you win elections and lose elections

there's no guarantee if he actually tells the truth about donald trump and is strong and goes aggressive on the campaign trail that he'll win but we all know this, you can't be halfway in. you can't have one foot in the water, one foot out of the water. that guarantees a loss that's what all these people are doing right now. you look at nikki haley who said, oh, i'm not going to criticize donald trump i'm not going to say anything bad about him because he hasn't said anything bad about me really the guy has been attacking nikki haley, even attacking her complexion just like these vicious, horrible personal attacks against her. and a couple weeks later she said, oh, donald trump's not attacking me why would i ever say anything bad about him? again, let's forget about what's right, what's wrong, what's courageous, what's not courageous, that's bad politics. >> agree one, you can't win a presidential election in a primary even, or certainly in a general by being inauthentic that's what we're seeing from a lot of these candidates.

who are you and what do you actually think that's important no matter what political party you are. the second piece is, you also don't win by pretending that the guy who's leading is going to just go away we've seen him go down in polls in iowa and other places, but that's because of excitement maybe about ron desantis and others it's not really about nikki haley at this point. and it's not really about mike pence either the other thing, joe, i was at that dinner on saturday night. and it was strange, i will say i mean, because it was about 9:30 at night in a dark basement ballroom everybody's wearing black tie or white tails, which is very strange. there's not many dinners left that still do that and that's when he decided to give his strongest comments. now, it is true also that he got largely a standing ovation from the room he had some good jokes then he gave a very powerful -- what i thought was a powerful case in the moment but to the point everybody's been raising why there?

what are you going to do now and what role are you actually going to play in getting to the bottom of what happened to prevent it from happening again in history >> still ahead, on "morning joe," is xi jinping right to name the united states as the force behind the so-called suppression of china ed loose joins us with his take on america's standoff with beijing. he'll also weigh in on the bbc's suspension of one of its highest profile anchors, know growing into a wider controversy that's threatening the outlet's reputation you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back.

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displaced. >> translator: the situation is really difficult we have more than 7 million women and children primarily who have been displaced abroad we do not call them refugees we call them temporarily displaced persons because they really want to come back more than 6 million ukrainians have been displaced inside ukraine, again mostly women and children so you can imagine the situation when a woman loses her normal routine, her normal work, and has to move dwik quickly to a different place. doesn't matter if it's a different country, a different region, it's still a change, a massive change in her life sometimes she fears it's forever. and so the situation is really difficult. >> and many of these families want to come home? >> the majority. >> there's a debate in america

and across the world about what we should be doing to help ukraine, what ukraine needs now more than ever what would you tell the people in the united states what are you greatest needs? >> translator: first of all i would like to thank you very much for the help that we have already received it's been right to give us help. somebody perhaps thinks that it's not it's out of place for a president's wife to ask for weapons, but i will ask for it because it's our salvation, it's a salvation of people who are shelled, and by missiles, by iranian drones, it's the salvation for our armed personnel in the front line. they are defending their country. and of course we must continue with this help because any delay right now would be very dangerous. a second aspect of what we need is to hear us, tell our stories

to everyone who will hear them we need to hear voices for change we need the voices of opinion leaders. because still some people in the world believe that it's not so simple, it's not so black and white and you could have another opinion about the tragedy that is happening in ukraine. this is a war of invasion, and that's it. >> madam secretary, you know better, i think, than anybody alive about partisanship and the united states and what it's cost our country. the ukrainian war has been one thing that's brought democrats and republicans together for the most part. are you hopeful that that will continue despite the fact some house republicans are being critical of the biden administration, and even republicans that are supporting the war effort >> well, i am hopeful that it continues, joe, because i think as we just heard this is a war of aggression and invasion

the behavior of the invaders has been barbaric. and it really is a war for not just the freedom of the ukrainian people, although that is first and foremost, it is a war for our values, for what we believe should be the birthright of every person in ukraine, in europe, in the united states, around the world so i want to underscore that as we support the courage and the extraordinary commitment of the ukrainian people, their government, their army, their citizens, we're not doing it just because it's the right thing to do, although it is. we're doing it because we have to draw this line and make it very clear that in 2023 this kind of aggression cannot stand. >> is it remarkable over the past five, six years in the united states we've had an

opportunity to understand just what democracy and freedom means at home. and now we look to what's happening in ukraine and all these things we talk about growing up, that we learn, suddenly the ukrainians are fighting for what we've always said we were supposed to stand for. how inspiring is that to you >> it's so inspiring to me, and i hope it is inspiring to every american, particularly those in positions to make decisions because we have to continue, and i would even argue increase the military support that we give the ukrainians sooner. >> does that include f-16s >> it includes air cover, it includes long-range missiles, it includes much more defensive systems and not just from us but from our nato allies and others. but they are on the front lines of freedom, and we need to support that and we have to provide the

humanitarian assistance that is so desperately needed for the ukrainian people, both in the country and then as the first lady says those who are displaced temporarily outside the country. >> madam zelenska, can you please talk about the challenges that your people are facing, and tell the world what they need to know >> translator: i think that the war is an everyday challenge, and everyone in ukraine is risking their life, even just by being inside the country just now, as we speak, the whole of ukraine is troubled by the vigil of the russian occupiers killing of ukrainian soldier for just saying glory to ukraine every time i speak in the international arena i finish my speeches with this phrase, it means that i also would have been a subject of their hatred,

object of their hatred if they were to meet me. some horrible cases of behavior of occupiers towards the local population, the local civilians, a massive amount of rapes, not only of the women, the majority of course of the women, but there are also cases of men and boys the general prosecution is nervous is now investigating 171 cases of rape. by different means, different kinds. they are extremely inventive in how they think of these -- think up these horrible tortures but there's only 171 cases of the people who were able, found themselves to talk about it, the majority of the people are silent because they're scared of the invaders coming back, they're afraid of judgment they're just scared. so these things are happening all the time, ask nd these thin

are terrible and every time we open -- we liberate another territory, sometimes we rejoice and then we start worrying about what we're going to find there. torture chambers, mass graves, et cetera. this war is not being waged over conventional rules of war, it's medieval. >> madam secretary i just want to hear your thoughts hearing from the first lady olena zelenska, right here before your eyes, thoughts, advice, what your feelings are about having a first lady in this position speaking her mind, asking for weapons, telling the stories of her people. >> i am extraordinarily impressed by the mission she has undertaken this is our second meeting the first was in new york when she talked about what her people need now

and she's been tireless in advocating to the rest of us to provide not just weapons, but humanitarian assistance and support in every way and i just want people to just stop for a minute, put aside all the partisanship and the politics and the divisiveness, and just think as a human being, think as a parent, think as a concerned citizen what she just said about what's happening in her country. the russians are also kidnapping thousands of children. they invade areas, and they steal ukrainian children and ship them into russia and then, you know, create these phony adoptions. think of what that would be like in your family, anyone you know. i just cannot express strongly enough that if you look back at

history you sometimes wonder what would i have done, you know, what would i have said or tried to understand or maybe feel and there is no place for anybody in america to look at what's happening in ukraine and come to any other conclusion than we have got to stay the course to help in every way that we can. >> madam zelenska, do you believe that the world is doing enough do you believe america's doing enough do you believe -- i know you were -- you got an opportunity to meet mbz here and you all had good conversations and you talked about the resolutions they supported, great news about the saudis giving 400 million in humanitarian aid this past week, glad to see that, but is europe doing enough is germany doing enough? your husband, he's not afraid to

speak his mind, as you know. >> she's not either. >> i know, i know. i was just curious, though, is germany doing enough are the french doing enough? is europe doing enough is the united states doing enough >> translator: the whole world has been able to see over the last year that we are patient. we are patiently waiting for help we wish for this help, and we put enough pressure, just enough so that we can see that the partners will support us, but it needs to speed up. i think you understand if you've perhaps heard the news that ukraine has received the first patriots, everyone in ukraine knows this, children know this, children know what

himmers is, children know what a leopard tank is. children shouldn't know this, children shouldn't take an interest in this but this illustrates how much we need this help because every child in ukraine knows that we need more, we need faster, and i hope that those who are still delaying will stop delaying, and those who have not done anything so far will at least not do anything to help our enemies. >> speaking of what children know in school, i was giving a speech in a middle school soon after the war began and they were telling the story of the ukrainian woman going up and giving sunflower seeds to the russian troops saying put it in your pocket because you're going to die and when you do something good will come from it and i was just riveted by the fact that that story that

happened in ukraine was being repeated in classrooms across america, the women of ukraine have really, really touched the hearts of the world, haven't they >> translator: we know of many very interesting stories that happen to women. for example, i know that one of the women saw a drone from her balcony and hit it, shot it down with a jar of tomatoes so shoot down a drone with a jar of tomatoes, something only a ukrainian woman can do we've heard of lot of these stories. >> madam secretary, can i ask you about our allies, it was inspiring after the war began to see germany step up and talk

about how their defense budget was bigger than russia 's event cru yulely. >> i've been pleased at how much they have done, the unity that we have seen and the staying power of the coalition, the provision of military aid, economic sanctions, and humanitarian support but i don't think we are doing enough to get the kind of backing that the ukrainians need to literally push the russians out of their country. >> can i ask you a question? you know the inner workings of american democracy, why does it take two years to get a tank from the united states to the battlefield in ukraine as an american, i don't understand this. >> well, it is a long, complicated explanation that you would have to ask the pentagon to provide the details

because it's always been frustrating to me. it takes longer. >> the house armed services, senate armed services, neither one of us understand this. >> but, you know, our defense department has a lot of, you know, bureaucracy as well as logistical challenges. but to literally move tanks is a big deal that's why i was very pleased that, you know, the germans and others have come forward with the leopard tanks. >> right. >> we need to be more creative and more supportive and move more quickly to get what the ukrainians need now. because what the russians are doing is literally sending thousands of young men poorly or totally unequipped, untrained, to their deaths. because they think they can wear the ukrainian people and military down. they can't but we could help end the slaughter even of russians who are being sent to their deaths if we moved more quickly now.

>> madam zelenska, how do you get through each day and how do you envision the end of this war? >> translator: i can say that every ukrainian dreams of the end of this war every day. this new year we met with only one wish you know how we celebrate the new year, we have a christmas tree and children get their presents and everyone has a wish, perhaps somebody wishes to go to the right university, or somebody wants to cure a disease, i don't know, buy a car. but this year everyone in ukraine wished for victory and this is why we wish for victory to come as soon as possible and the second is that we need justice, what we need is justice. it's not just the victory that we need, not the victory on the battlefield. what we also need is an

international tribunal for war criminals of the highest rank. we need a change in the workings of the international criminal court so that we are able to call to account those who are raping ukrainians. this is what we need very much we want to bring our children back, those that are being held hostage by russia. and we want to rebuild we are using this chance now we believe that if we continue to work five times as much with five times as much energy we will renew, we will rebuild, and we will rebuild better we believe in the post-trauma growth this is our chance and perhaps this may sound a little contrary, but we are using this very difficult

period, this crisis to jump, to make this jump. >> first lady olena zelenska, and madam secretary, hillary clinton, thank you. >> thank you. >> you agree with her, don't you, hillary >> totally, how could you not? i mean, really. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. that was our exclusive conversation with first lady of ukraine olena zelenska, and former secretary of state hillary clinton. you can learn more at know your value.com. still ahead right here on "morning joe" live reports from cnbc and the white house as the biden administration works to stabilize the banking system that's ahead on "morning joe." when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis keeps flaring, put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable, i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. and left bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc got in my way, i got lasting, steroid-free remission

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♪ joining us now u.s. national

editor at the financial times ed luce good to have you with us. >> great to have you here. we talked about your column, very riveting. but first, let's talk about what happened to the bbc this past weekend. obviously faced a lot of criticism this morning after a public fight with one of their most popular sports hosts gary leniger, british soccer star, a legend in premier league football suspended after tweeting criticism against england's government's crackdown he uses language not dissimilar used by germany in the '30s. set off a noisy debate over free expression, influence and the role of' veered and beleaguered public broadcaster in an era of polarized politics and free wheeling social media. this was the most interesting

part, though, ed, the controversy led to loud questions over bbc's close ties with britain's conservative party and lineker and other bbc hosts criticized the opposition labor party on social media without punishment. >> interesting. >> we could go on and on but i thought it was fascinating, ed, they had to actually limit coverage yesterday because they faced a boycott from lineker's peers, premier league players refused to talk to the bbc you had some games going on i guess where they just showed the images and there were no announcers. >> yeah, gary lineker is a beloved figure, he's the highest paid broadcaster by the bbc. because he's widely loved, widely trusted this is a guy who played premier league football for 16 years and never got a yellow card. i mean, the guy -- >> no. >> -- which is unheard of.

you know, he's never fouled anybody. he's seen as a very decent, fair-minded person when they suspended -- the bbc suspended him from his top show "match of the day," the rest of the crew and fellow presenters just walked out. they couldn't run it because except with silent clips because he is so popular, he engenders so much solidarity so i guess the bbc are now in negotiations with him about his right to free expression and whether he's going to curtail that as a condition for returning to the show. they have to get him back on the show and the pressure is now moving onto the chairman of the bbc, a guy called richard sharp, who's a conservative party donor he also arranged a million-dollar mortgage for boris johnson. so he's a friend of boris johnson. >> oh, wow. >> so the idea that the bbc is sort of beyond reproach, seeing

his wife highly impartial, it's under scrutiny from the other end, that is conservative influence. >> ed, we've got some breaking news actually right now, just over the wire, he has been reinstated he's returning to the air waves, the bbc announces, after a suspension i'll read briefly the statement here from bbc director general tim davi who says gary's a valued part of the bbc, i know how much the bbc mooefs means to gary i look forward to coverage this weekend. there will be a review of bbc social media guidelines to address gray areas there within. it's not clear yet, this just broke as to what sort of negotiations may have happened behind the scenes, ed, but he will be returning to the air waves this weekend. >> well, i think that's expected but nevertheless, very, very good news. i mean, the important thing here is that he's not a politics reporter there should be different rules for people who are after all publicly employed to stop them

from airing their views on social media or elsewhere to contaminate their reputation, which is a very important thing for being neutral. the guy's a sports presenter and, you know, he's going to have views on things there are other people like jeremy clarkson who have shows on bbc who have very different views, and they freely express them so i think gagging people is probably not going to succeed in the long run. >> well, ed, your new column for the "financial times" is entitled "china is right about u.s. containment" and you write, quote, this week xi jinping went further than before in naming america as the force behind the containment, encirclement and suppression of china though his rhetoric was provocative it was not technically wrong. president joe biden is still officially committed to trying to cooperate with china. but biden was as easily blown

off course last month as a weather balloon. today's approach is containment plus when xi talks about suppression, he means america's ban on advanced semiconductor exports to china since high-end chips are used for both civil and military purposes the u.s. has grounds for denying china the means to upgrade its military but the collateral effect is to limit china's economic development. you continue there is no end game to today's cold war unlike the ussr, which was an empire in disguise, china inhabits historic boundaries and is never likely to dissolve. the u.s. needs a strategy to cope with a china that will always be there. >> and on last week on thursday when i was talking to admiral stravedes, talked about the parallels in china's language and what we heard from japan leading up to world war ii, that

the united states was contained -- trying to contain them, and keep them sort of lined off in the eastern pacific -- or in the western pacific. and now you have china complaining. again, you brought up computer chips, but you could talk about the philippines, guam, nuclear subs in australia. there is no doubt the united states is becoming more assertive in trying to contain china. >> there is, and the fact of these parallels is interesting, and very, very chilling. people talk about chips as today's oil. it was the roosevelt administration's cutting off of oil to japan that the japanese saw as their cause for war yeah, the americans have been playing a very effective game, the biden administration, and we're going to see today with the orcas deal in san diego,

you've got the british prime minister, traustralian prime minister joining joe biden at the base to launch the saab marine japan is really changing its character, agreeing to announcing it's going to double its defense spending we've got the philippines reopening naval bases for the united states to use and of course india closely working militarily closely with the quad countries of america, japan and australia. so wherever xi jinping looks, what he sees is containment. and what he sees is encirclement he's not necessarily wrong now, the fact that he is bringing this -- he is provoking this reaction from china's neighbors should not, i don't think, blind us to the fact that this is a very dangerous situation, and dangerous situations require talking the united states is still by far the more powerful of these

two countries, has hundreds of military bases all over the world. china's got one. with 2,000 chinese military personnel there. the last time china invaded a country was in 1979 in vietnam, and it got a bloody nose it withdrew. so we need to keep things in perspective here my concern is not so much with the biden administration, but with the rhetoric in this town is becoming very war-like. it's bipartisan. there is no peace faction in washington as you used to have with the business lobby. and the expectation of war can sometimes create its own reality. this is not a situation where america should be feeling weak and when you feel strong, when you feel a sense of resolve, then you feel able to talk,

which is what i would like to see happening. i think that's true of the rest of the world too. >> still ahead right here on "morning joe" we'll have the highlights from last night's history-making academy awards. "morning joe" will be right back

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♪ president biden is expected to deliver remarks at the top of the hour on the banking system following last week's collapse of silicon valley bank right now with us, republican senator bill cassidy of louisiana, he's a member of the finance committee and the joint economic committee one of the main reasons it's great to have you here is we talk about fake populists who go to ivy league schools. when i was talking about that, i

found out that everyone around the table including lemire, who's a columbia grad, also an ivy leaguer. i checked your credentials you're strong, my man, lsu >> go tigers you might be a florida or florida state fan, but the tigers have been doing pretty well against those teams >> i went to florida law school. we have a rough first weekend in every november, you and me, because i'm a 'bama fan. there's so much to talk to you about. i want to get to social security a little bit let's start with the bank. it seems to me that a lot of bad

decisions were made by the bank. at the same time all weekend, i was hearing a lot of investors really concerned about what would happen to other regional banks if, for instance, first republic went down what are your thoughts are we out of the woods yet? >> obviously there's a lot of banks that are going to be exposed. a high inflation environment in which the fed is trying to raise interest rates to catch up with them is exposing mismanagement as i was walking to the studio today, i passed first republic there is no line outside first republic it tells me people who have their money there have been reassured. the fed's policy, which they tell us doesn't involve taxpayer dollars, seems to have been oil and water, so i am cautiously optimistic. >> you say that's an anecdote.

the calls i was getting from california with all the lines around the first republics and everything else, it was kind of frightening for a while. i am curious, how did we get back to this point, though, 13 years after 2008 did the regulators miss something? >> management knew that their investment strategy was ill-equipped to deal with high inflation and high interest rates. so first it's management could the regulators have imagined that as well? absolutely i'm told people selling stocks short, they sold the svb stock short and made $500 million. somebody out there knew that the bank was bleeding to death so, yes, the regulators did

something wrong. but ultimately it's the high inflation and interest rates that's going to expose mismanagement. >> i want to talk to you about social security solvency there's been chatter amongst your own party that the retirement age should perhaps be raised what do you think the retirement age should be? >> let's back up a little bit. >> sure. >> social security is the silicon valley bank of retirement systems it is going broke in nine years. when it goes broke, by current law if you're receiving a check right now from social, that check goes down by 25% you lose one-fourth of the income you would have if we don't do anything. we've got to step up and make sure that social security benefits are there for those who

are getting it now and those who are going to be. the approach we're taking, the centerpiece is to create a fund separate from social security and to how an investment strategy which will grow over time and help social, it will bridge it to sustainability. it will strengthen it and secure it the main thing in our approach is this investment fund separate from social that actually bails social out everything else is just a dial you can dial this, you can dial that but the investment fund is critical. >> president biden, of course, is offering a very different vision he just outlined his budget. he's been extremely critical of plans put forth about social security and medicare. do you think senator scott's

plan is the right one? >> senator scott's plan is wrong. it is totally separate from our plan by the way, our approach is bipartisan bipartisan means that democrats and republicans are liking the framework, this kind of idea of a fund separate from social. if somebody tells you there's no need to address social security, they're either too old or too rich to care president biden needs to be honest with the american people. social is going broke in nine years. when it goes broke, there's going to be a 25% cut. and somebody who's currently receiving social security, they will get 25% less. if he wants to pretend that we don't need to do anything, that means he thinks he's going to be out of office when it occurs we need to step up now to protect the person who's relying on social to pay her bills, we need to start planning now. >> senator, a long time ago when

i was in congress we had to slow down the rate of increase of medicare because the medicare trustees said medicare was going to go broke in seven years you're talking about nine years. are the trustees saying that social security runs out of money in nine years? >> joe, absolutely they've been predicting this for 20 years >> can i ask really, because i must tell you i could go back to 1994 i've been saying this since 1994, warning about deficits and debts and inflation coming at some point, people look at you as the boy who cried wolf. so if i've been warning about social security since 1994 and nothing's happened, what do you say to people who say you guys have been saying this for 30 years? >> joe, when you said it was

going broke, you didn't mean tomorrow, you meant in 30 years. so for 30 years, 15, ten, we're been warning and now it's upon us we have a choice either we pretend there's no problem like president biden did during the state of the union speech or we address it now and eliminate the possibility of a 25% cut in benefits for people who rely on social security. we're going to also fix it in a way which makes it more fair for those who perhaps it is not quite fair for now if we wait until the last minute, it's going to be a car wreck. let's do it now. >> how does your plan protect working class americans? how does your plan help middle class americans and people in louisiana from feeling the crunch of having some of their

benefits taken away? >> the heart and soul of our approach is to come up with a fund separate from social security which has a different investment strategy than does social by the way, there is no risk for the person working back home, that lsu tiger fan, there's no risk for her or him. the risk will be born by the fund you keep the fund going for decades and that way the ups and downs of the market you kind of level out. at the end, if you do the math, we'll have enough in that fund that can pay off any debt accumulated in terms of making sure everybody gets the benefits they're promised. >> this is fascinating it is a bipartisan plan. you're working with senator angus king senator bill cassidy of louisiana, thank you go tigers. that's the one time i'll say it.

thank you so much. jonathan lemire, what do we expect to hear from the president? >> he's going to explain the steps the administration took over the weekend about silicon valley bank. it's going to be to reassure americans who are nervous what about they saw and their fears about their money and deposits and to tamp down any concern this could be the beginning of some 2008-style collapse these banks are more isolated. now the president is going to come out and address the american people as to what happened and what could be next. >> before i leave for california, i want to briefly speak about what's happening to silicon valley bank and signature bank today thanks to the quick action of my administration over the

past few days, americans can have confidence that the banking system is safe your deposits will be there when you need them. small businesses across the country can breathe easier knowing they'll be able to pay workers and pay their bills. last week when we learned of the problems of the banks and the impact they could have on jobs, small businesses and banking system overall, i instructed my team to act quickly to protect these interests. they've done that. on friday, the regulator in charge of the fdic took control of silicon valley bank's assets and over the weekend it took control of signature bank's assets treasure secretary yellen has taken action, immediate action first, all customers who had deposits in these banks can rest assured they'll be protected and

they'll have access to their money as of today. that includes small businesses across the country that bank there and need to make payroll, pay their bills and stay open for business this is important. no losses will be born by the taxpayers. let me repeat that no losses will be born by the taxpayers. instead, the money will come from the fees that banks pay into the deposit insurance fund. because of actions that our regulators have already taken, every american should feel confident their deposits will be there if and when they need them second, the management of these banks will be fired. if the bank is taken over by fdic, the people running the bank should not work there anymore. third, investors in the banks will not be protected. they knowingly took a risk and when the risk didn't pay off, investors lose their money that's how capitalism works.

fourth, there are important questions of how these banks got into this circumstance in the first place. we must get the full accounting of what happened and why those responsible can be held accountable. no one is above the law. finally, we must reduce the risk of this happening again. during the obama/biden administration we put together tough requirements on banks including the dodd-frank law to make sure the crisis we saw in 2008 would not happen again. unfortunately, the last administration rolled back some of these requirements. i'm going to ask congress and the banking regulators to strengthen the rules for banks to make it less likely this could happen again and to protect american jobs and small businesses the bottom line is this, americans can rest assured that our banking system is safe, your

deposits are safe. let me also assure you we will not stop at this we'll do whatever is needed. let's put the situation in a broader context. we've made strong economic progress in the past two years we've created more than 12 million new jobs, more than any president has created in a single four-year term. unemployment is below 4% for 13 straight months. take-home pay is going up, especially for low and middle income workers we've seen record applications for new small businesses over the last two years, more than 10 million of them. we need to keep this progress going. that's what swift action of my administration over the last two years is all about, protecting

d depositors and the banking system thank you >> that is president joe biden assuring americans and businesses they're going to be able to pay their workers and assuring americans they're going to be able to pay their bills. he also talked about the actions that janet yellen took this weekend. wanted to make sure all customers would be protected and have access to their money no losses will be born out by the taxpayers, the president assured us also, the managers of the banks that were taken over will all be fired. the third point was that investors would not be protected, those who invested in these banks would lose their money. he said that's how capitalism works. he also said no one is above the law. if any laws were broken, those

people will be brought to justice. he's also going to be calling for congress to strengthen rules for banks and made reference to some parts of dodd-frank that were, in his words, weakened over the past administration by donald trump the "wall street journal" editorial page today disputed that fact, said that wasn't the cause of this past weekend but the president of the united states at the end saying americans can rest assured that their money is safe. let's bring in andrew ross k sorkin >> i think he was trying to reassure americans to keep their money where it is so there's not additional bank runs around the country at small banks one of the things we saw happening over the weekend was the big banks were getting phone calls saying can i open an account immediately. this effort is aimed at that we've effectively guaranteed deposits across the country, you

could say de facto nationalized the banks. that has lots of ramifications while the good news is that hopefully this stems the tide, there's a real question of what the economic cost tof this is going to be more broadly the stock market this morning looks like it's going to open down why? because small banks are now important and they're going to be regulated and have higher capital costs. that means loans to consumers and businesses are going to go up that's going to cost the economy. this is not over yet there's a big debate as to what it means for the banking system and also who was the beneficiary. these are not bailouts like 2008, but the venture capital community in california were bailed out big time this weekend. >> you, of course, wrote the book on this "too big to fail," a classic book on what happened

in 2008. we saw george w. bush and barack obama find themselves in a quandary where do you go ahead and step in, as the federal government step in to stop the economy from melting down? and in so doing, do you award some bad actors in that process by letting them off the hook all the calls i got this weekend were people talking about a run on first republic first thing monday morning, what would happen there region's bank collapsing it seems to me, moral hazard aside, the risk of meltdown of all these regional banks and further consolidation of the big

five banks is a risk far too great for any president to take. >> there's no question that the right answer, at least in this moment, was to stem the bleeding and was to effectively provide this blanket guarantee we will see whether it works by the way, first republic not only has this guarantee but got some money from the federal reserve and jp morgan overnight. that stock is down still over 60% this morning you're going to see not only bank failures, but bank mergers. this is going to be a rocky road over the next months as all of this gets sorted this guarantee lasts a year. part of this is going to be about all the different new regulations that happen during this time. this is a much more politically palatable version in so far as the executives lose their jobs nobody's getting bonuses

the svc executive took bonuses on friday. we'll see whether that gets clawed back. it's not a classic bailout a lot of folks who were bailed out over this weekend, the depositors were very smart, top of their game venture capitalists and the portfolio companies, their investments people are going to look at that and carried interest on taxes and where regulations should be. the valley specifically has a very sort of libertarian streak, yet here they were asking for help and they got it i think it's going to be a lot more from the political side in terms of the implications of all this. >> did you just say the silicon valley bank owners took bonuses on friday? >> that is exactly true. on friday morning before the fdic took over the bank, they in

fact distributed bonuses the bonuses scheduled to be distributed on friday far in advance. those bonuses were part of the 2022 year. nonetheless, they still went out. by the way, a lot of the employees at sbv had accounts at sbv, so those bonuses went to those accounts that also were in jeopardy at the time again, we'll see whether that money comes out. i do think there's going to be a lot of political debate the president said this is going to cost taxpayers nothing. for the most part that's true with one little caveat there's a $25 billion stabilization fund that the treasury department is putting into play here hopefully it never gets tapped, but it could if it gets tapped, that is taxpayer money. >> i certainly suspect those bonuses will be asked to be returned

tell us more just where you see this going on the hill right now. it's going to be a political football we're seeing the biden administration take some heat from both sides of the aisle for stepping in. >> the crystal ball is this, we spent the last 15 years since 2008 focused on the big banks. we didn't focus on small banks we didn't think they were systemically important there's a lot of eye off the ball had regulators been keeping their eye on the ball and noticing what became a mismatch effectively in ermterms of how these banks were running their business, it could have avoided and prevented. the president of sbv went to the senate in swift and said we're not a systemically important bank, you should keep us under the threshold with the argument

they're a community bank helping small businesses and startups. i think that's going to change in this environment. i also think the other big debate that's going to happen is was this bank helped because it was connected to very vocal, very politically connected venture capitalists and the like if this had been a little bank in the midwest somewhere, would they have let it die i think you're going to hear a lot about that in the coming days and weeks. >> earlier stephanie ruhle said, just as there are no atheists in fox holes, there are no libertarians in business when there's a run on banks how fascinating that, again, there are people in silicon valley who love flexing their libertarian muscles any time they get a chance to squawk about it, and yet they're the first ones to ask for government handouts, government assistance

and when there's a bank run, they're the first ones to ask for intervention. >> no question david sachs was on twitter all weekend screaming from the rooftops about bailouts. he would say it was for the entire country, which is true. he was right in so far as you do want to stem the tide. this issue of carried interest which we often talk about in the context of hedge funds and private equities getting special tax treatment. venture capitalists say we're here to help the startup community and we need special treatment. i wonder if that argument changes in light of the help so many of these people got and in fact would have lost millions if not billions of dollars.

>> no doubt about it cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, what an extraordinary weekend this was. thank you so much. >> thank you former vice president mike pence is offering his sharpest criticism yet of former president trump. pence made his remarks saturday night at the annual gridiron dinner, a closed-door, off-camera event attended by politicians and journalists from the nation's capital, where speeches usually take a humorous tone pence said, quote, president trump was wrong. i had no right to overturn the election and his reckless words endangered my family and everyone at the capitol that day. i know history will held donald trump accountable. he continued, quote, make no mistake about it, what happened

that day was a disgrace and it mocks decency to portray it any other way. that's a shot at not only the president, but also it appears some cable news hosts. eugene daniels is with us and take us inside the room. what happened? >> he was doing his jokes. he talked about being a bad boy like mitt romney midway through he took that serious turn to start to talk about january 6th. some of the stuff we'd heard before he talked about how it was a disgrace, how it was bad for democracy, that it wasn't just a tourist attraction when he went into donald trump, you could hear the people around the room gasping in kind of shock that he was doing this, because mike pence spent the

last two years towingetoeing th of not saying anything bad about donald trump if he could help it january 6th changed that a lot he catalked about history holidaying donald trump accountable, saying that that he was angry about what happened that day i think those are the things we would have been surprised to hear of course, this is a no cameras, no recording type of event, but he knew this was on the record he knew this was going to be his first shot across the bow at donald trump as he continues to make the decision whether or not he's going to run. after the dinner, i walked up to him and asked if i'd see him on the road soon for 2024 he was like i'll let you guys know very soon that was interesting if he continues this, this gives him a lane that other folks don't seem interested in occupying on the republican side for the 2024 primary, which is

kind of the adult in the room upset about january 6th. i don't know how many republican strategists you guys talk to, but they said there's not a lot of appetite right now for someone who wants to talk seriously about what happened on january 6th. how that plays out for him is going to be very interesting >> you tweeted shortly after tweeting the gridiron dinner quote, just out of the gridiron, me listening to mike pence give an absurd speech about how important it was to find out the truth about january 6th. he is filing court actions >> i love the gridiron there's no humor in my town. there's very little bipartisanship i love the idea of the gridiron.

i'm grateful for them for having me there are things that happened there that crossed the line and mike pence is among them come for the homophobia and stay for the sheer audacity he gave a speech about how donald trump endangered him and his family personally and how important it was to get to the truth about what happened on january 6th. all that is good, but you can't just give that speech behind closed doors, especially when at the courthouse doors you're filing bogus immunity documents to prevent you from having to tell the truth he's claiming he shouldn't have to testify and tell the truth about what happened on january 6th in formal legal documents. eugene is right that there is a lane open for him, but it's a lane of the spineless. i mean, that's the only lane

this is a guy who ran around the gridiron afraid of running into a anyone he runs away from it instead of owning it. the guy single handedly saved our democracy on january 6th you'd think he'd want to take credit for it, but he doesn't because instead he's trying to calculate and triangulate. it's pathetic. >> eugene, let's talk more about the politics of this it seems in pence's efforts to please everyone, he's pleasing no one he doesn't want to be seen on camera condemning donald trump, but he's already lost the maga base yet, there doesn't really seem to be an appetite for him to be the trump alternative either for now that's ron desantis. what possible path is his team

trying to chart? >> what they keep telling us one of the things someone said is they think he can be the adult in the room and that is what he wants to do. what that looks like is very unclear. if this is the first shot across the bow, does he continue to do this publicly? does he actually take credit for saving democracy on january 6th? he talked about on saturday that he didn't have a choice, that he did the only thing he was allowed to do. is he going to take that to iowa and new hampshire specifically on the debate stage if he is to jump in with donald trump and what does that look like i've talked to people who worked with him in the white house. they say he is not a man who wants conflict he does not want to be fighting

on a debate stage back and forth with donald trump. he is going to have to find a way to do that, find the chutzpah to continue this fight he started on saturday >> i do want to underline the fact that it's important to say by after it, that said, i do want to say mike pence helped save american democracy on january 6th. he stood in the gap on one of the most dangerous days in the history of american democracy. i mean, i can't believe we're there. we are, though again, he's being too clever by half, right? you can't have it both ways here this guy is either a scourge,

donald trump, and a threat to american democracy or he's not and you can't be afraid of offending his voters if that is the truth that mike pence actually delivered at the gridiron. >> that is 100% right. when i say he single handedly helped save our democracy on january 6th, i do believe that he just did the bare ministerial minimum under enormously complicated conditions no one sitting in his shoes for the last 200 years would have done anything else the law on this was clear. he had no place to maneuver. a judge had been advising him saying, look, whatever trump's telling you, there is zero legal basis to try to throw out the election that would be crazy to allow the vice president to pick the next

president. i think pence should get credit for that day and i think he should be taking that credit instead of running into the shadows and afraid of mentioning it again i'm glad he mentioned it i do think he's got to act and walk the talk now. if he believes january 6th was a threat to our democracy and that we need to get to the bottom of what happened, he can file a legal document today that says i take back these ridiculous filings and i'm going to tell the truth to the american people. >> and he was right about american democracy being at risk on that day and also, of course, his own family at risk on that day because of donald trump. that's something he also admitted the other night neil cat yell and eugene daniels, thank you both. in colorado, a former state

representative and election denier was just elected to run the state's republican party david williams, a former three-term state lawmaker who lost the congressional race in june has been elected to guide other conservatives in the state. the "washington post" reports that williams has spread election lies often within the past few years and is known in part for trying to incorporate a derogatory phrase for president biden into his official entry on a state primary ballot republicans lose, lose, lose they keep losing in these swing states where they have the greatest need to get somebody with a clear eye on the future and understanding of what happened in the past, in colorado they get another election denier. they get wiped out in michigan

they elect an election denier. they get wiped out in colorado they elect an election denier. it makes no sense and only hurts the republican party's prospects in the long run. >> in state after state it seems to be a self-inflicted wound for the republican party this past midterms this was not a winning issue for the republican party yet, what we have seen in these last ten days, we have seen the party, so much of it seemingly remain in donald trump's grip. he has shown his power and hold over the party last week too and it's reflected in the polls. and mike pence is afraid of donald trump too by not fully going after him, by not cooperating in these investigations in the republican party past is prologue it seems like they're stuck with

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thank you. my mom is 84 years old and she's at home watching mom, i just won an oscar >> beautiful speech, such a beautiful story. after winning best supporting actor for his role in "everything everywhere all at once." the film also claimed oscars for best picture, best director and

best actress and best supporting actress. the academy awards went off without a hitch following last year's major drama and the infamous slap. brendan fraser took home the oscar for best actor for "the whale. it's a first nomination for him in his more than 30-year career. let's bring in founding partner for media venture, matthew b bellemy. >> we haven't seen this kind of dominance at the top of the academy awards ever. one film had seven wins overall.

"everything everywhere all at once" was a locomotive last night. only brendan frazier got a top category this movie hit all the right notes for the academy. >> why did it? obviously a remarkable historic sweep. >> i think the reason this movie resonated is it hit all the touch stones of hollywood right now. it was a big hit in theaters at a time when that is a really big question, the future of theatrical movies in hollywood this movie did not cost very much money it was very innovative they did a lot with a $25 million budget and made it look big and expensiexpensive.

it's also a very diverse movie that showcased asian and asian american actors in a way that really resonated with the academy. it's a combination of these new directors that are a fresh voice with some veterans you had michelle yeoh, who's an actress who had been working for decades and finally got her due. jamie lee curtis, another actor who had been acting mostly in slasher movies for her career and finally got a role that the academy could embrace. >> matthew, it's so fascinating obviously what's happened to movies. axccelerated this. if you're talking about

"yellowstone" or "1923," a lot on tv, we've come a long way from the hollywood model on these nights where you have movies like the wizard of oz the ten commandments, these huge big budgeted spectacles that would usually win awards "the whale" gross ed just over 3 million. the huge winner last night grossed in the u.s. just over 70 million, a far cry from what we saw 10 or 15 years ago. >> that's true and the academy had the opportunity to honor some of those big budget blockbusters. we saw avatar the way of water only win in the visual effects

category if you talk to people around town, a lot of people voted for those movies and especially top gun to show support for the business and the theatrical movie going experience they didn't get over the top, though over the last decade or two, the academy taste has gone increasingly niche where they are honoring some smaller movies that are incredibly well made and resonate with the academy, but don't get to the heights that some of these big blockbusters are it's really a dichotomy between the audiences of the academy. >> top gun thought of so warmly across the industry. we heard that clip of steven spielberg thanking tom cruise for saving hollywood because top gun brought people back to the

theaters last year's oscar was of course the slap jimmy kimmel made a few jokes. will smith not present how do you think dkimmel did navigating >> this was a return to no normalcy after the chaos of last year, the academy really wanted your grandmother's show they wanted it back to normal. they didn't want any problems. kimmel is a great host he had a great monologue there were no big swings it was a very paint by numbers, not even that many surprises in the winners. a lot of people thought austin butler could have won for "elvis." instead brendan frazier did. cate blanchett could have won,

instead michelle yeoh did. it was a pretty normal oscars. i think the academy really wanted that. >> let's close on the big winner of the night, michelle yeoh. it's also a night for representation this is a night that i know meant a lot to a lot of people to have a movie with asian faces and asian power behind it doing so well. speak to what that says about where the academy is right now and hollywood itself >> the academy over the past seven years has undertaken an enormous push to diversify, both racially, ethnic, gender, globally it's still not great numbers but you see it in the nominees and the winners. michelle yeoh said this is for people who look like me.

representation does matter in these awards and we saw it on stage last night. >> we also saw across social media this meant so much to so many people. many of my friends talking about what it meant to see this movie do so well while we talk generally about how these movies weren't commercial successes in the traditional sense of the word in hollywood, it's important to note that everything everywhere is actually a24's biggest box office success globally and one of the bigger successes of the year, raking in at least in the u.s. and globally right now over $100 million on a $25 million

budget i think any studio head would say that is a box office success. >> oh, absolutely. it's not a marvel movie. it's not top gun but i think the fact that that movie did so well and got to 100 million world wide actually really helped its oscar campaign, because it was a movie that voters could look at and say not only is this artistic and weird and innovative, it also resonated with audiences and did pretty well in theaters. it was a movie they could get behind and say it's fine to vote for this movie and not some of the more commercial movies because it was a hit and people did see this movie in theaters. >> thanks for being here greatly appreciate it. coming up, get your brackets ready. we're going to take you through the top teamcos mpeting in this year's march madness tournament. also donny deutsch is here

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headlines, it's the cinderella stories that capture our hearts. the big question now, who's going to make noise at this year's tournament? correspondent sam brock has this report >> reporter: if it's the second week of march -- >> welcome to the ncaa men's basketball champion selection show. >> reporter: -- it must be time for a little college basketball madness. on the men's side, alabama is number one overall, with houston, kansas and purdue earning the over top cseeds. the jayhawks are defending their national title while the head coach was discharged from the hospital and ready to join his team if you're searching for this year's possible cinderella squad, the owls just received their first tournament bid in more than 20 years reeling off an epic 20-game win streak under coach dusty may

how would you characterize this squad? what defines them? >> a true team these guys really care, support each other, 100% selflessness. >> reporter: guard michael forest, the only senior on the team. >> for us to be here is such a dream come true. >> reporter: forest is from nearby lauderhill, where he says many friends stayed home to support family instead of going to college >> when you're first walking out here, you look around like, dang, i'm really here. then you're like lrkts, we got to handle business . >> every time i go to these games it's the best games i've ever been to. >> reporter: on the women's side, the south carolina gamecocks looking to repeat as champions, while indiana, virginia tech and stanford capture the other top seeds. now it's almost time for tip-off. that means it's still anyone's game let the madness again.

>> let the madness begin indiana representing the men's and women's tournament, that's going to be fascinating. fau, with a 20-game win streak first tournament, that would be a big deal for the owls. donny deutsch is with us for brand up/brand down. march madness? >> huge brand up they've done a brilliant job branding it. it's not the college football playoffs it's march madness they get anywhere from $2.3 and $2.4 million for a spot. to me it's the purest of the pure there's something about what happens in march madness, the energy, the purity of competition. it's my favorite sporting event. >> let's stay with basketball. this is definitely a brand down.

talk to us about ja morant. >> very sad story. ja morant, one of the five or ten best players in the nba, it's been all over the news that he was waving a gun in a nightclub with his shirt off this is a billion dollar equity that's possibly put it all on the line you have coke with their powerade ad. they've pulled it. nike has a ja morant shoe. it's sad hopefully this young man gets the help he needs. this is a huge, huge lifetime opportunity he's putting on the line. >> we're just a couple of weeks af away from the season premier of "succession. why is it brand down >> hbo, their streaming service which started as hbo go and then went to hbo now and when to hbo max. they're reporting they're going

to drop the word hbo and just call it max. if you have hbo at home, you go, okay, well it's the streaming version of it. it's interesting how that name they kept sticking on there and now, oops, let's take it off. >> let's talk about the u.s. army, big brand up why? >> a lot of marketers have amazing slogans and then they get tired of them where the audience has not they had a great slogan for decades, be all you can be it's all about empowerment they went away from it their recruits are down this year they need to get to 65,000. marketers, when you have something great, you may be tired of it, the consumer or target audience is not. >> that is one of the most successful campaigns of all time, "be all you can be."

great to see they have it back the next one you have to explain to me, 75,000 brand down, 500,000 brand up what do you mean by that >> famous scientific study in 2010, they said $75,000 is the threshold can money by happiness. according to research, beyond 75,000 it was tremendous diminishment in returns. guess what 13 years later that number is 250,000. anything under 250,000, you may be struggling with, i need more happiness, more money. after $500,000 nothing seems to apply. it doesn't apply to anybody on this ne network. the flint stones, brand up why? >> they're coming back to primetime. the redo is going to be called

"bedrock." fred retired, it's 20 years later. they've gone from the stone age to the bronze age. we forget, "the flintstones" was originally a primetime -- that was a long time ago. >> it was incredible my dad was fred flintstone, my mom betty. i still love them for good reasons. vinyl records. brand up. >> you'll love this. vinyl records sales of $1.2 billion, the first time since 1987 that there were more vinyl records than cds sold. cds backwards 17%, vinyl records up 18% people love the experience think about the emotional experience when you're putting the needle on. the music connects in a deeper more real way. no surprise there. >> i will say, too, growing up, i actually feel sorry for people that have been through generations and they looked at a

cd and unwrapped it. and now, of course, just streaming. i remember when "born to run" came out opened it up, it was straight out of almost famous i just stared at the album i opened it up and stared at everything, whether it was tommy -- every album it was an extraordinary experience let's hope that that trend continues. donny deutsch, as always, thank you so much. we love having you on "brand up brand down." >> always do it for the kids whoever your researchers and in the lab jackets -- swedish lab researchers. >> there's some finnish that have come in, also the danes and norwegians are upset they're not part of it we've got half of scandinavia so we're okay. >> we'll be right back with much more "morning joe" when we

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welcome back to "morning joe. >> the president, we knew he was going to come out and suggest americans need not worry, he was going to explain why his administration took the steps it did to stabilize these banks saying it would not start a 2008-2009 style crisis >> donny deutsch, let's go old school before we go. what did you learn today >> i learned today that one more time joe biden is the president of quiet competence. just the way he handled this once again, we're going to see it we do a laundry list all the time of the legislative victories and all the things

he's done right with nato and ukraine. one more thing couldn't have handled it better. >> donnie, such a good point biden's team understands he got elected to bring normalcy back to the white house this morning, like you said, a perfect example of that, steady, gets out there, does what needs to be done without a whole lot of -- donald trump would have made it all about himself, would have been talking on and on. would have gestured. this was just basic straightforward. we'll step in. we're going to take care of the banks. make sure we take care of the people with money in the banks but people invested in this recklessly are going to pay. >> amen, amen. >> all right that does it for us this morning. i don't think i'm going to get donny to be anymore succinct than that. that does it for us.

lindsey reiser picks up the coverage after a quick break ♪are you ready for me♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪ limu emu & doug ♪

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