♪ we've been covering a lot of different stories tonight. seems like there's lawyers everywhere you can always hit m @arimelber do the think the strategy of blaming the past lawyer by the current trump lawyer will work link with me at arimelber.com. we heard from michael cohen on msnbc. he will be on "the reidout" with joy reid next. lawyers on lawyers, sure to be newsworthy starts now ♪ tonight on "the reidout" --

>> do you feel vindicated? >> this isn't a question of vindication. it's not a question as i stated before about revenge this is a -- my position is that at the end of the day, donald trump needs to be held accountable for his dirty deeds, if, in fact, that's the way that the facts play out plain and simple this is not about him. this is about holding accountability, truth to power, and everything else in between >> michael cohen was back before a manhattan grand jury today could an indictment of donald trump be imminent? michael cohen joins me live in just a moment. also tonight, remember the republican party of ronald reagan demanding that the soviet leader tear down the berlin wall? well, today's republican party is parodying the talking points of the ultimate soviet nostalgic, vladimir putin. and offering to hand over ukraine to him as a reward for an illegal war. plus, today's high-stakes hearing in texas, which could

result in women losing even more reproductive freedoms as republicans push extreme new penalties for abortion patients, including the death penalty. but we begin "the reidout" with trump loyalist turned adversary michael cohen who wrapped up his testimony today in front of the manhattan grand jury investigating the stormy daniel's hush money payments that he made on behalf of donald trump, aka, individual one, in the leadup to the 2016 presidential election. cohen's testimony taking more than five hours over two days is believed to be the last piece of the puzzle before wrapping up the case that is, after trump declined his invitation to speak before the grand jury himself so now we're in a literal wait and see moment waiting to see what manhattan district attorney alvin bragg will do next will he bring charges against trump the first time a former president gets indictmented?

beyond the legal implications, are the many, many political ones as trump is seen as the leading candidate for the republican presidential nomination at least for the moment. trump has already indicated that an indictment would not stop him from running in fact, one of trump's lawyers told my colleague that an indictment would actually help his client's presidential pursuits >> if they're pursuing this matter, it's weaponizing the justice system to keep this guy out of office. donald trump is going to win the election if they bring this case, i believe this will catapult him into the white house i believe it because this will show how they're weaponizing the justice system they're taking the vote out of the voter's hands. >> but, joe -- >> joining me on the phone is michael cohen, former trump personal attorney and host of the political beatdown a mea culpa podcast. his new book is called "revenge, how donald trump weaponized the u.s. department of justice against his critics" to include you, michael cohen thank you for joining me

i really appreciate it i want to start by asking you, did you get the sense in being in that grand jury, if you can answer that question, of whether this is wrapping up? >> hey, joy. good to, of course, speak to you. i am a little bit tired. it's been a heck of a couple of days do i think that it's wrapping up it appears to be so. look, it doesn't matter whether i'm in the grand jury room, whether or not i was a witness i think we all acknowledge that i'm probably the last witness that they need they've already spoken to -- it's been reported by the "times" and other newspapers, it's been reported a enough people have been before the grand jury, have already provided the testimony so i think it's a pretty fair thing to say >> and you are -- we're clear that they are not asking you back >> yeah. i am not coming back you know, i was subpoenaed for monday's testimony as well as

today's. d.a.'s office treated me the same as they treated everybody else so, i did not receive any additional subpoenas or documents requesting me to come back so, yeah, i'm pretty safe to say that i'm done. >> and you have been in to talk with d.a. alvin bragg 20 times there were multiple interviews and my understanding of that would be for you to provide not just testimony, not just corroboratable testimony but also documents, would that be accurate >> yeah. of course. you know, very much like i did with my congressional testimonies, including the live house oversight committee with the late, great, elijah cummings, one of the things i didn't want to be out there is -- well, is michael cohen credible well, everybody is entitled to have their opinion i believe the answer to that is yes. but i don't even want that

question to come up. so when you start doing -- when you start bringing documents and emails and text messages and other documentary evidence to the table, it's impossible for that statement not to be valid or validated >> and there is this other question -- that is a good point because you have testified under oath multiple times and i noted on the show the things you said have turned out the be true the way that trump treated his properties and their valuations and this information about the payments to stephanie cliffard's aka stormy daniels i don't know if they would have given you a sense if they felt they needed her testimony. this isn't about whether or not donald trump had the affair, it's about whether they tried to pay her off. did you get any sense from them whether they need to see her in front of this grand jury >> no.

they're really very professional, so they didn't bring the topic up with me whether she was testifying, she wasn't testifying or whether or not they were even speaking to her. you know, they are very closed when it comes to that type of information. and you got to give them a lot of credit. they're really running the process the way it needs be run. >> you know donald trump better than most people that i know and that have had the opportunity to speak with joe tacopina, his current attorney went on with ari melber and said that he believes, you know, indictmenting trump for what he did and orchestrating this payoff with yourself and allen weisselberg that will propel him into the white house. it will make him more likely to win the nomination he said he will run regardless of whether he's been indicted. number one, how do you think he will react for being indicted for this number two, what do you make of joe tacopina's political

prognostication that it will help him with his base >> let me start with the second question first i did say yesterday joe tacopina on ari's show. he's an absolute disgrace to the profession of law. i do know him certainly a whole lot better than joe tacopina what i will tell you emphatically is what joe is doing right now is he's playing to a party of one. and that's donald trump. he will say the most ludicrous nonsense that you can say because that's what donald wants to hear. and obviously he's gotten the message requirement from donald or his people. and so that's what joe is doing. he's merely just, again, playing to an audience of one. and as i had said also on nicole's show before, that when you're sitting across the desk from ari melber, sitting across the desk from joy reid or nicole wallace, one thing you want to do it on one of these news max

oans or any of the shows that actually prefer you to say these things, it's another when you're going to have somebody now hitting back at your statements. but hitting back at your statements with facts. and that does not benefit donald it doesn't benefit tacopina. if he doesn't watch himself, he may find himself like the rest of us, myself, eastman, bob, and rudy giuliani and a whole slew of other attorneys that have found themselves in trouble thanks to dear old donald. >> yeah. i wish i could remember who coined the term making attorneys get attorneys is the real meaning of maga. that does seem to be the trend michael cohen, author of "revenge" and the host of the political beatdown and mea culpa podcast. michael, always appreciate you being willing to come on thank you so much. really appreciate it get some rest. >> i will see you soon in person. >> thank you very much that sounds like a plan. thank you. let's bring in now paul butler, former federal

prosecutor, georgetown law professor and cornell belcher, pollster and msnbc political analyst, perfect two folks to talk about this. paul,ly start with you you heard michael cohen say he felt like this was the end this was the end game. and that alvin bragg, the grand jury did not indicate whether stormy daniels will be needed. your sense of how close we might be to the end. >> so joy, locking in the testimony of people like michael cohen and stormy daniels who could be key witnesses is a sign that a decision from the manhattan d.a. is soon coming. the d.a. doesn't have a slam dunk case, but he may have enough evidence to get an indictment paying hush money is not a crime in new york. so prosecutors could go after trump for making a false business report. but that's only a misdemeanor. they could charge a felony by using a complicated and untested legal theory, but that would a

risky prosecution. so, if the manhattan d.a. is one of those prosecutors goes by the theory, you comment the king, you best not miss. he ultimately may not bring the case but if d.a.-bragg thinks he has all the testimony he needs and willing to chance to bring donald trump to justice, joy, things could get really interesting really soon. >> i want to sit with you for a moment paul. there's the question of whether trump physically would be. if he was indicted, let's say he took the risk and go at the king, and he's in florida. then all of a sudden you get ron desantis involved in this. he would then have to make a decision, it would be his legal duty to make sure that he is turned over properly, but under florida law desantis could say, you know, i knneed to take a further look and do himself political good with fox viewers, hold up now, you can't necessarily take him and remand him to custody he does have that legal authority, right it would put him in a position

of saying trump, come kiss my ring if you need my help >> yeah. so, ultimately this could be another side show that trump uses to try to delay his ultimate being brought to justice. but joy, make no mistake, at the end of the day, if donald trump is prosecuted in new york state, he will have to show up in new york state court to answer those charges the same as any other person in the united states. >> cornell, that brings us to the political question because we have never had a president of the united states indicted and there are -- i think a lot of people have this kind of angst about this, which is that this is maybe the least of the horrible things that donald trump could be prosecuted for. he allegedly stole classified documents and put them in his bedroom. he caused an insurrection that got five people killed, left police officers, hundreds of them beaten. but what is the political

ramification -- how does this play out is joe tacopina right that prosecuting for any of this actually helps him politically >> well, no. i don't think he's right but we are in unchartered waters i try to look back at history as indicator of what might happen here and there's no history of this sort of level of corruption. look, donald trump's problem is 46.8 and that was percentage of the vote he got. and it's hard to see how, joy, he grows his support by becoming an indicted -- becoming indicted in multiple places, right? you usually don't get indicted and more people run to support you. that's just typically not how it works. >> but he's -- the thing is he's got a cult, though did i just play locker up? can i play that real quick this was in 2016 when he was

running. let me play this for a second. this was the republican national convention do we have that? we may not have it oh, we got it. >> lock her up lock her up. that's right yeah, that's right lock her up. >> michael cohen, the short-term national security adviser who pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi contact with the russian and later got pardoned the theory of the case for donald trump in 2016 and 2020 was that if biden was being investigated for some criminal activity by the ukrainians, and if hillary clinton was indicted, that would mean their political doom but now you're absolutely right. they're saying the opposite. if he's indicted, trump is indicted, it makes him win it is sort of backwards, but everything about trump's political career is backwards. >> but i think it may help -- look, he needs more people and this doesn't help him get more people. now to the fact --

>> michael flynn i meant michael flynn. let me correct that. not michael cohen, michael flynn. >> so if you're facing him in a republican primary, i do think it's problematic because it does help mobilize his voters, his cult following i don't see how that -- but in a general election, you need more people and trump's got to get more people he doesn't have those people you don't get those people by being indicted >> does it help desantis if he tries to stop him from being removed to new york? >> that's the million dollar question is, because again, joy, we're all in these murky waters. and if you're desantis, do you sit back and say -- don't say anything because one of the politics 101 is when your enemy is imploding, you get out of your enemy's way so does ron desantis just sit back in a cut, as it ere, and let him implode and don't touch it at all?

if i were -- now, that would be funny if i was working on the desantis campaign. but if i working on desantis campaign, ron desanctimonius don't touch it at all. >> i can't mean you running desantis campaign. up next, today's republican party is parroting the talking points of vladimir putin and offering to resolve this so-called territorial dispute by handing over control of ukraine. "the reidout" continues after this

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mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. [ cheers and applause ]. >> that clip is perhaps the most memorable phrase uttered by president ronald reagan, which he said on june 12th, 1987, standing 100 yards away from the concrete barrier dividing east and west germany, the berlin wall believe it or not, though, when reagan gave that speech, it received very little media attention and few accolades. in fact, many when the reagan administration advised saying tear down this wall, calling it extreme and unpresidential it wasn't until two years later when the wall fell it became the famous phrase it is today. with republicans in particular praising the moment as a triumph

of presidential rhetoric but let's not forget why the berlin wall was there in the first place. it's origins traced back to the years after world war ii, when the allies and the soviet union carved germany in half, with the soviets taking full control over the eastern side the wall was built to prevent east germans from fleeing, which millions were doing to escape the poverty they faced under soviet influence and to seek freedom and opportunity in the west but the wall was more than just a physical barrier, it was a symbol of the battle between communist totalitarianism and democracy. which divided not only germany, but the world during the cold war. fast forward to today, we're seeing a similar situation once again, the battle between democracy and autocracy is playing out in realtime as russia fights for control of a sovereign nation of ukraine. and while the u.s. and other nato countries are offering their support to ukraine, amidst the brutal on going war, you also have a lot of prominent republican leaders arguing that

many russia isn't the bad guy here including two of the leading figures in the party, ron desantis and donald trump. who oppose u.s. support for ukraine and claim the war is not in our country's vital national interest with desantis indicating in an answer to a candidate survey by putin's favorite broadcaster, tucker carlson that the invasion of ukraine is a mere territorial dispute which just happens to be a literal vladimir putin talking point. and while some republican lawmakers have pushed back against those comments, keep in mind that either trump or desantis is at this point the most likely republican nominee in 2024. and desantis, who has not officially announce head is running, is already getting endorsements but it's not just them it's also de facto house speaker marjorie taylor greene used cpac to ramp up anti-ukraine rhetoric among the conservative base. not to mention tucker, who just as a reminder, has previously admitted to lying to his audience of millions and who constantly parrots kremlin talking points

bottom line, putin may not be winning the ukraine war, but right now he appears to be winning the republican presidential primary and the pro-russia faction of the party seemingly abandoned this advice the man they used to worship. >> we in america have learned bitter lessons from two world wars it is better to be here ready to protect the peace than to take blind shelter across the sea rushing to respond only after freedom is lost. we've learned that isolationism never was and never will be an acceptable response to tyrannical governments with expansionist intent. >> joining me now is mike ronnelers, former republican congressman from michigan and forearmer fbi special agent. congressman, it's so great to see you. thank you for being here. >> thanks, joy, for having e. >> we had a chance to talk beforehand my father was a big reagan guy i was not. i was on the carter side -- >> reagan is the guy that brought me into the republican party. >> the thing is that, look, i

may not be a reagan person, but what he just said is true. >> yeah. >> what happened to a party that used to stand by him and that now appears to be drifting, at least in big chunks of it, toward putin >> well, i will say this was a bit of a gasp moment for many republicans when two of the leading candidates, governor ron desantis included came out and saided, hey, it's not in our national interests that is maybe the biggest gasp moment i've heard going into 2024 election that isolationist, there's a whole bunch of folks isol isolationist, the way to stay out of conflict is exactly wrong. and i think ronald reagan said it best when he talked about that isolationism will lead you into conflict if not done correctly. and this is that time for leadership think about it, we didn't do anything when putin went into the country of georgia he invaded georgia oh, it's really none of our

business he invaded crimea. we said, it's none of our business remember, he'll stop sometime. he hit latvia with an extremely aggressive cyberattack we all said, well, send him a strongly worded memo and he decided because of our inaction, our notion that, hey f we just leave everyone alone, they'll leave us alone it simply isn't true and it's dangerous. it led us into world war ii, that kind of philosophy. it gave us 9/11 with that philosophy guess what, china and russia are moving out on the international stage. i have never seen a time in our history, joy, with this many threat vectors coming into the country. this is the wrong time to take that tact. >> i can argue with you on some of that. we did implement sanctions against russia because of what they did in crimea we haven't done nothing. there have been actions taken on the international level. i would argue about that we can debate about ilhan omar i want to zero in on the

republican party because this is a fundamental change you can argue there have been people in the democratic party in the past that have said, you know, we need to do -- i was against the iraq war full stop, right this is not something i thought that we should have been doing but now what you're seeing is people who used to be for the iraq war are now on my side when it comes to things like promoting democracy, belief in democracy. you were in the fbi. we have republicans in the house right now who want to defund the fbi. >> yeah. >> there have been attacking literally on fbi agents because they were serving a warrant a duly-issued warrant on the former president, donald trump, because he took classified documents home the republican party has shifted, at least at the base level, against law enforcement, against the free market, toward things like taking over disney and ordering them to change policies, suing cruise ship companies in florida what desantis has done to say you can't have your own policy on masks and covid. they shifted toward big, big, big, big government and toward things like defunding the fbi.

what happened? >> there are some misfires in the party. and there is, i think, a collision of some ideas on this. i think this is a shake ourselves out of it moment and i say that because of this threat, this growing threat from a strategic competitor china that has openly said they're coming after the united states they're teaching their kids quantum mechanics in middle school last year, half of our high school seniors haven't read at the sixth grade level. my argument is america has performed better when we understand what our way of life is threatened and is at risk i argue it is. and i think this is the time we can come back push out that isolationist message i think nobody talked about. when is the last time you heard a national speech on why we should be engaged in the world i can't tell you the last time. >> it wouldn't go over well. i can tell you it wouldn't go over well among your party because there is a big -- >> some in my party. >> it's a big chunk. it's a big chunk. >> i think there's a growing number of people who are growing

concerned about this isolationist wing of the party. >> i think there are some. let me ask you very specific things just when you poll some of the things that are taking place as the republican party focuses on culture wars, the majority of people oppose the idea of banning certain books in classrooms this is a 76% position abortion should be legal, 64%. two thirds of people say that. gun laws should be more strict 58%. on and on. opposing attacks on transyouth, et cetera. yet what you're seeing among people ascending in the party, like desantis, is attacks on schools. is attacks on teachers is banning drag shows. what is a governor doing, taking the -- a private business's liquor license because they had rue paul's drag race do a tour there. bigger attacks government. we're going to ban this nationwide. >> i think you're talking about this -- a smaller lane in the republican party.

>> is it small >> i do -- here is the thing we have to remember that there's a difference between tolerance of those who are different and lgbtq community members and what some -- in some schools have been happening where people believe that they've taken the rights of parents away to make those kinds of decisions for their kids and i think that's a big difference i think we're going to have to work through that ifference. >> i love you said that. here is my question, if i'm an african-american parent and had black kids in florida schools. and i say, i want my kids to read the bluest dye. why does an organization like moms for liberty have the right to say, no, that book gets banned >> parent you would have the right to have that book in your house. >> that's not what's happening moms for liberty, no kid can have this book ban it. >> ban it from the school library, they're saying, right they want to be able to control access of that -- >> why should they control it and not me >> but you can get that book at home if you want to have that book at home you can get that book at home. >> they decide what's in school.

only some parents have rights. >> you can take this argument to the extreme and say, everything should be available. let them get on pornography sites on -- >> nobody is having porn books in schools. >> you have to say there is a line for this. >> it can't be one group that decides. it can't be one -- >> i think parents in a community need to make these decisions. >> that's not who is deciding. moms for liberty they're deciding. >> they have tin influence in a school and have the influences to go in -- >> yeah, you can have that debate but my argument is, your beliefs and my -- a parent belief in the school who happens to be different, you can come to a place where you don't have to have either one of those exposed to the kids. you can do it at home. guess what, the best education you can get happens at home. >> parents don't have time i want to have you back to talk with us. last question, are you going to run for president? >> well, interesting question. i've had a lot of people reach out and talk to me i have spent a lot of time through this organization lead

america.org that my wife and i founded in places like iowa and new hampshire and south carolina and i will say it's encouraging. i do think people are ready for something different. they know that something does not feel right these are the republicans that i have not stood up and been heard about. hey, listen, this is the party of liberty, freedom, less taxes. all those things we believe in as conservatives, i think people are ready for a message that gets us back to understanding. >> are you open to a senate race >> never say never in politics but we'll see. >> i hope you will come back and let me know. one of the things i think needs to come back to republicanism are nice people. there's nothing wrong -- we can disagree, nothing wrong being a nice guy. >> if you're going to love your country, you have to love your country men, even the ones you disagree with. >> thank you very much. >> i appreciate you coming in. we'll debate more. i appreciate you thank you. former republican congressman mike rogers. still ahead, a high-stakes hearing in texas today as a

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♪ the next phase of the abortion fight arrived with a vengeance today. in texas, a judge appointed by donald trump heard arguments in a lawsuit that aimed to force an abortion pill off the market the medication was approved by

the fda more than 20 years ago it has a safety record of more than 99% it's removal would mark the most damaging ruling to reproductive rights since dobbs bhoking access to the pill nationwide. medication abortion accounts for more than half of all u.s. abortions. the extremely safe and effective medication is used to induce abortion and to manage miscarriage or early pregnancy loss, which can by the way be life threatening joining me now is co-chair of american bridge and former president of planned parenthood. it's great to see you. even under these circumstances you know, it strikes me -- the great producer who produced this segment pointed out that, you know, this drug is literally safer than viagra and you can't imagine a world in which a federal judge would say we're going to see if we can pull the fda approval of viagra

they feel they can do it to women and they are trying. how worried are you about this ruling >> oh, look, i think you laid out the case there, joy, really well this is incredible this case should have never even been taken this is -- they're, in fact, the anti-abortion lawyers who were arguing this case today before this trump-appointed judge, said there is absolutely no precedent for a federal judge taking away approval of a drug that is safe, it is effective, that is -- as you said, has been in use for now 22 years this is all about ending access to medication abortion across the country. it's the most commonly used form of abortion. and it would mean, of course -- it doesn't matter what state you live n even in states where abortion is completely legal, if this judge takes this radical action by removing fda approval or telling the fda -- this drug is no longer approved, it would

mean the end of this access all across america 64.5 million women losing access over night. >> just to make the audience really understand what that means that means women will die. carrying dead fetal tissue inside of you will kill you. right now women who in states forced to do that, can go to another state. a lot are going to places like north carolina or further north, if they're in a red state, try to go to a blue state. if then you can't get it there, can you just imagine what the lines will be like outside of places where you have to get a medical abortion because this drug -- even if they appeal it, that will take time. this drug will be gone everywhere, right? >> correct you just saw -- i'm sure you read about the report in texas five women who had pregnancies that were desperately wanted, that went wrong, who could not get care in the state of texas, some of them had to leave the state to get care.

and it is -- so you're right we're risking the health and lives of women everywhere. and the reaction of the republican party seems to be, well, that's their problem or somehow it's the doctor's responsibility meanwhile, what we're seeing across the country is getting worse, joy not only this case in texas but, of course, ron desantis, governor of florida, has now endorsed basically a full-on abortion ban in the state of florida. we saw the south carolina legislatures, republicans there, introducing legislation that would allow women to be punished with the death penalty if they ended a pregnancy. i mean, it is getting worse before it's getting better and clearly the republicans have not listened to women anywhere >> it is -- this judge -- the other issue, matthew kaz marric, a trump-appointed judge. the secrecy around this hearing, the fact that he tried to kind of make it difficult for

reporters to get in, to find out when it was going to be, he seemed to want this hearing to almost take place in secret, it wasn't easy -- there's no audio. we can't even hear what the arguments sound like what do you make of the fact that people like him, people like alito, they feel that they have a right to take women's bodily autonomy away and we don't get to listen to them do it they feel that they are -- i don't know a sense of superiority over us, i guess. >> well, it's power and control over women let's be -- that's what all of this is about. and i do think it's really interesting, joy, that they -- the right wing now, the republicans, are using the judicial system, a supreme court that they stacked, the federal judiciary that they stacked, because they can't win at the ballot box because as we know, when ever voters have the chance to actually vote on whether they believe abortion should be a decision that pregnant person makes, not the government, we win. and we saw that in kansas,

overwhelmingly defeated. montana, kentucky, conservative republican states. so, it is really -- it's being done under secrecy, cloak of secrecy. but also because it's against what the american people want. poll after poll showing that and it's -- but i don't think the republican party is listening. >> they're stealing women's liberty. and they're doing it in secret and trying to force a right wing ideology on an america that doesn't want it. i don't know what else you can call it, fascism again, keep reminding people, se seal richard, appreciate you being here keep fighting the good fight. coming up next, republicans relentless assault on voting rights continues in the supreme court and key swing states "steta of disunion" is next. s. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions

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the court to a conservative majority and now, in a highly-unusual move, they are ignoring precedent, taking the case up again. north carolina is one of a swingiest swing states president biden only lost there by one point in 2020. in last year's midterms, using a court-appointed map, republicans and democrats want an equal number of congressional districts, seven each. but under the republican-proposed map, republicans could win up to 11 of those seats, leaving democrats with only three. it appears that this conservative court is champing at the bit to reinstate this map with politico noting that they signal a degree of hostility toward the groups defending the current map. the north carolina is far from the only place in a state of disunion what's happening in alabama is even more egregious. it's straight up racism. alabama has one of the highest black population percentages in the country, 27% but their republican-drawn

redistricting map only has one district that's majority black meaning that 27% of the population is represented by only 14% of the state's districts. that map was used in the midterms with that district electing the state's only democratic congress member challenger sued the state, arguing that the map violates the voting rights act, which has been one of chief justice john roberts' long time dreams to invalidate the court heard arguments last fall and the conservative justices seemed to be leaning towards upholding this map the case is called merrill versus milligan. up next, we'll talk to the lead plaintiff himself, evan milligan people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget.

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i had the honor of meeting you evan, when i was recently in selma and we were on a panel together i want you to give my audience the education you gave me abou this case and why you are plaintive in it. >> sure. it is great to be with you again. this case to me is about a law for people who live and th black region of the united states particularly the - of alabama where i was raised. i happen to be born in the black belt area of houston that is where my father wa front. by luck of the draw, my parent were people who taught me to love black people throug activism and so that was a legacy that grew up around, just like many other people in my part of the country and as i became an adult, it was choosing a caree path i have just been reall invested in justice oriented work and work that improves th

conditions of people livin through at alabama's poorest communities. and that led to us being involved in redistricting work in 2021 and as a result of that, we were able to get to the legal defense fund attorneys and other attorneys on the ground, working alongsid community members an organizers so when it was time to challenge the states - it was an easy decision to wor with the legal defense fund. >> today, the question is, i it a winnable case arguments were made i thin last october, but, you know, w know that the supposed moderat among the conservative wing' john roberts, who has a long history of seeming to despis the voting rights act, going back to when he was a reagan lawyer it is hard for me to construct which five members of th supreme court would actually rule in favor of black alabamians am i being too pessimistic >> listen, i think your read o the court is correct i would say that this case i

absolutely winnable. it is a slam dunk case on th merits you almost can't look at tha map and look at the fact underlying it and see anything other than a racia gerrymander. we have a population of alabam where black people occup roughly 27% of the population. and yet, they are relegated to having an opportunity to elect a candidate of their choice an only one of seven congressiona districts. so, the math alone suggest what we were able to prove through a very extensive recor and that is that black peopl are being packed into a single district in alabama and ther is a direct effort to limi their political power. this court should and can rule in our favor quite easily and hope that it will. >> you know, what does this do to voters. because every election year, people say, look at mississippi, alabama, louisiana look at the low voter turnout.

mississippi also only has on black member of congress because there is this strategy in the southern states o fighting all the black people, drawing a big circle aroun them and saying you get on congress person, we get th rest and that is what you ar obviously fighting in this case what does that do when you g out and say to people, hey turn out and vote. when they are being told b their government, your vot does not count, we are packing you all in so that you canno have a say - >> it forces us to fin motivation when we are speakin to audiences and our communities that don't rel only on overnight change o quality of life. so, for many of the communit members that were engaging with, who say -- that i have never seen and one thing that w constantly try to encourag people to do is, look, follo the money. and think about rooms. there are certain rooms that you want to be in.

and there are certain mone being spent to keep you out of those rooms. so, if we think of the ballo box as one of those rooms, why is there so much intense investment in these measures t challenge the basi fundamentals of exercising our right to vote? we really try to encourage those who have been a little bit jaded to think about som of the interest that may b profiting or benefiting on the sidelines. and we think our case is a goo illustration that it should be a slam dunk case under our laws and the fact that this would not even be a question, le alone a space for the state to make the argument that it is making - it is a great litmus test as far as we are concerned. and how many more people w need to join us in pushing and understanding, you know, where we are as far as a country - >> you just vote more. -- obviously, there's a reaso

they don't want you to do it i want to ask you a closin question there is this question o contagion. there's another case that is coming up for the supreme cour and is the state legislature case that would basically allo states to set aside the will o the people and substitute them with their own electors, which is what trump tried to do. is there concern in your vie and in the view of the - if this case doesn't go th right way, there could b contagion and the supreme cour might feel free to roll th wrong way in that case >> yeah. i think we need to be very cautious about all of thes cases that put our democracy i the hands of a court that we know might be politicized at this point but i do think that there is enough constitutional doctrine to force the court to do the right thing. and the more versus harper cas should be determined and the merrill versus milliga court case should be determine the right way. we will see if that happens. thank you both ver