the legal right to make th decision that he made. i think it was the wrong decision, but the law allowe him to make that decision. what if that judges deciding whether these abortion regulations are lawful the judges in a place where lot of people don't like abortion you want the judge to say, i'm living in kansas, and so i kno what people here think i'm going to do what they want you want the judge to follow the law. >> watch the recall refram tonight at 10 pm eastern o msnbc. streaming as well on peacock that wraps it up for me this hour i'm richard louis in for yasmi vossoughian. she will be back - 2 pm eastern symone starts right now.

greetings, everyone. you are watching symone, we ar following breaking news in the trump hush money case. this is a case involving storm daniels investigating by the grand jury in new york michael cohen tells msnbc an that he is been asked to b available as a rebuttal witnes tomorrow we will have more on who els could be talking in just a moment all of this comes after former president donald trump's claim that he will be arrested thi week there is zero evidence to back that up and he's also got thes calls for protests they are prompting a message for the manhattan da to hi staff. intimidation threats will no be tolerated we will talk about the forme presidents familiar tactic with congresswoman maxin waters plus, let's talk about menta health in policing in america, a quarter of people killed b police have mental illnesses why aren't we seeing major changes in how law enforcement handles calls for help i am symone sanders-townsend and i have something to say.

♪ ♪ ♪ folks, we are followin breaking news this hour. when it comes to the manhattan grand jury investigating hus money payments to stormy daniels. trump's former fixer and a key witness in the case, michael cohen, revealed to my colleague, alex witt, and that he has bee told to be at the manhatta district attorney's office whe the grand jury meets tomorrow, just in case he's needed as rebuttal witness take a listen. >> whether it's before the grand jury or it's just to mee with them for an interview again, i'm not sure. but, yes, i was asked to mak myself available and to be a the da's office tomorrow as rebuttal witness >> nbc news has now confirme that cohen maybe rebutting one of his own former lega

advisers, about costello he's expected to appear before the grand jury at the reques of donald trump's lawyers. possibly to undermine cohen' previous testimony this all comes after donal trump's surprise and dare i sa baseless announcement yesterda that he posted on his social media platform he said illegal leaks from a corrupted highly political missed - indicate he will be arrested o tuesday. trump also told supporters t take back our nation okay, folks. we are talking about the rul of law versus the triumph of chaos. let me be very clear, th manhattan district attorne alvin bragg has not filed an indictment against forme president donald trump there could be one but unles that indictment is drawn up, signed by a grand jury, an filed at the court, there will be no arrest of donald trump a the former president claim there will be. that is just how our justice system works donald trump's instructions to protest -- although the da's office

declined to comment on donal trump's posts, distric attorney bragged was forced to assure employees that they would be safe. writing this in an interna memo quote, our law enforcement partners will ensure any specific or credible threats against the office will be fully investigated and that th proper safeguards are in place can't even believe he had to say that let's bring in former manhatta district attorney -- dan horowitz welcome to you, sir. mr. horowitz, trump's former personal attorney and his fixer, michael cohen, have said the da's office told him to be available tomorrow as rebuttal witness for the grand jury we know bob castella i expected to testify. what can all this tell us abou where the da's office is in th grand jury process, are we a the end? >> it seems like we are at the end, that's for sure this is clearly a stunt to throw sand in the years. i don't understand how forme legal adviser catastrophe in front of a new york state gran

jury first of, all new york state granaries don't hear hearsay evidence secondly, the da is required t corroborate or support testimony from people like michael cohen who is a coconspirator with backu testimony. there have been any number o witnesses that have alread gotten it. this is just another political quasi-legal stunt to get som headlines, through bragg and the da's office >> you know lot of - about about this specific da's officer. what do you think is happening behind the scenes right now? >> i think, to be sure, they have to prepare for making a request to the grand jury fo costello to testify. they are obligated to do tha and it sounds as if they've go a backup plan which is i costello does testify they'v

got michael cohen on standby it is certainly seeming like they are at the end here which would require a lega instruction to the grand jur before the grand jury is asked to vote on charges as you said four minutes ago symone, and that indictment, o the true bill has to be file with the court the court has to issue a arrest warrant the law enforcement proces begins for a surrender or an extradition. >> yesterday on my show, i had msnbc legal analyst charle coleman on he said that the distric attorney was, quote, proceedin on a tenuous legal theory in this case of the stormy daniel hush money would you agree with that state? >> you know, the law especially this law, can b elastic at times while i don't know of an instance where somebody ha

been charged with falsifying a business record with the inten of filing a false campaign report, it doesn't mean this i not a prosecutable crime i think if the evidence is there that there was an intent to falsify the records in orde to falsify campaign reports fo the trump presidential campaign, that the elements would be mad out. obviously, there would have to be a connection between trump' own conduct and what the allegations are. but the theory, notwithstandin the fact that it hasn't been actually brought before doesn' matter i will say one other thing a long time ago, when th securities were created back i 1933 and 44, congress create something called insider trading. for many, many years, decades, decades, insider trading was handled as a civil case from the securities and exchang commission when robert warren, the u.s. attorney in 1962, his office

began to prosecute crimina securities cases, inside trading, which had been handle for decades as a civil case wa now being prosecuted criminally. i think, symone, you know -- >> what are you trying to tell as mr. horowitz? >> every day, there is a new indictment for insider trading it goes without saying the fact that there is a new o novel theory, i don't thin speaks to the validity of th prosecution at all >> all right we will have to leave it there dan horowitz, thank you so muc for kicking us off today joining me now to continue the conversation is democratic congresswoman and rankin member of the financia services committee maxin waters welcome to you, congresswoman. i would like to start by getting your reaction and to the former presidents baseless claims that he made on his social media site yesterday. >> thank you very much for having me on today as i said at least once before

this is donald trump sending messages out to domestic terrorists that he has worke with and helped to organize fo the invasion of the capital on january 5th, he is standing ou a message to them to get ready to protest any arres indictments, et cetera, that h might have he has basically talking to th proud boys, the oath keepers qanon, kkk, and he doesn't car if it is not the actual truth. he is getting them ready because he thinks, eventually, he may be charged with crimina activity that is to get ready, a speech that he was giving of course, you can never trust him. he is a liar, he has prove himself to be dishonest. and no matter what he says i going to happen, it's a matter of getting him ready and getting in front of it so that they can take some action.

we don't know what they ar organized to do. >> we do not know what anyon is organizing to do. and i think the language in an of itself should be concerning to all of us moments ago, before this program started, on twitter, speaker mccarthy echoed th former president's attacks o the district attorney, alvin bragg. yesterday, he said a whole manner of things he would instruct the committee, specifically, to investigate the district attorney's case what are the discussions happening now between you an other members about speake mccarthy's statement >> i'm not really in any discussion with mccarthy i don't know that the member have we know some things about mccarthy first of all, we know that h barely got the votes in orde to be the leader, the speake of the house of representatives. it took 15 votes we also know that he would b

dammed - trump at one point and tal about trump needing to be -- >> i'm sorry to interrupt you. i have to wonder your thoughts on this. like, do speaker mccarth statements concern you at all? >> always don't forget, he defines himself when he woul hand in -- begging for trump's forgivenes and got back in with trump i don't trust him, ever. >> i want to move into the banking issues that have reall gripped conversation, not just across our country, but across the financial industry of th world the financial services committee, where you are the ranking member, we'll hear fro the ftc chair and the federa reserve advice - what will you be asking an what could they say to you tha would assure you they are on top of the situation >> first of all, we've got t

hold hearings and we have go to get in the state insuranc regulators as you just mentioned, fdic an the feds and the treasury. we have got to get to th bottom of what really happened at central valley bank we have to understand what they're -- disproportionate amount of uninsured. we have to understand th securities they were holding the bonds, the treasuries, and the fact that they should've known, when they looked at their balance sheet, and the were not worth as much as they were when they first got them. that interest rates were going up they are not easy to self. they sell some but they took a big discount that had to to do with it. this bank was the go-to bank for start-ups. start-ups could not get loan at traditional banks working with, you know, this bank and venture capitalists they had put together a wa that which they could not only get some loans but also that

the bank would have been perhaps not as careful as it should be in taking care of it risk all of these things have to be investigated we have several hearings out of this is going to come legislation to try and ensur this doesn't continue to happen we are lucky that there was no contention because of the wa that fdic and the feds and the treasury handled this. they basically made a big step and a big decision to take car of the uninsured, along with the insured, to keep that kind of contagion from taking place >> to prevent a domino effect. i am out of time congresswoman. i have to ask you about this notion of woke banking we heard this from a number of your republican colleagues i the aftermath of the silicon valley bank collapsing what is your response to folks >> these are right-win conservatives. they hate progressiv

governments and progressiv politics when they denounce woke, wha they are trying to do is send message to people that somehow this is not good policy. and so, what they are doing, they are trying to say, becaus this bank was following woke politics and they had diversit on their bank, it's only one black, only one lgbtq, only fo women. this business of them saying that they have been paying mor attention to their managemen than to their woke politics, they would not have been i trouble. it's all about - a bunch of lies. it's all a bunch of messagin to their constituents to hav them believe that, again, more progressive, so-called liberal people had to do with this ban failure. >> the woke accusations soun ridiculous to me congresswoman maxine waters, thank you very much for your time coming up, folks -

thank you. donald trump, guess what, he i back to his old tactics. this time, i don't think anybody should be surprised by anything that he says or how his allies come to his defense my panel will join me on that first, my colleague jessica layton is here wit today's other top news stories jessica? >> hi, simone. thank you. stories we are watching this our breaking news overseas ubs has agreed to buy riva bank credit suisse, this was national bank is putting up substantial loan here to support the deal, which aims t fend off global market turmoil calling it a solution to secur financial stability. in ukraine, today russia president vladimir putin made surprise visit to the russia -controlled city of mariupol this comes after the international criminal court issued a war crimes warrant fo putin. it was his first trip to occup ukraine since the war began. and in france, president emmanuel macron facing notions of no confidence in parliament tomorrow this comes after pushing through an increase in the state pension age from 62 to 6

years old. he went ahead with that move despite weeks of protests. they have disrupted essentia services, including garbag pickup i'm jessica layton, more simon coming up after the break. ! it's daylight saving time. what's the big deal? gasp! what's the big deal? what's the big deal? what's the big deal? what's the big deal? ♪marching band music♪ ♪marching band music♪ i'll get a cart. get two! scotts daylawn saving is the biggest deal of the year. stock up early and save up to $20 dollars on the best scotts products. (vo) sail through the heart of historic cities

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testimony is expected tomorrow in the manhattan grand jury -- has money payments to stormy daniels. after donald trump's baseles

claim that he'll be arrested o tuesday, republicans had their orders as usual, they scramble to defend him even the man whose life donald trump endangered with hi election lies. i'm talking about former vic president mike pence >> it feels like a politically -charged prosecution here. and from my part it i just fee like it's not with the america people want to see >> my political panel joins me now. eugene daniels is a politica white house reporter and a msnbc political contributor. daniel moody is here, she is the host of woke af podcast. she said democracy don't car what i got on. michael singleton is a forme republican and host of the michael singleton show o sirius x m they're here to break down these headlines. i'm going to start with you. we only had donald trump's wor to go on and i want to be very clear that i do not trust hi word because he is a prove

liar so do you think that al of this talk of indictment is foregone conclusion is reall playing into donald trump' hands? do you even think any of tha matters at the end of the day? >> yeah, i think it matter politically. what it does is solidifies republican voters around the former president i spent the past few day talking to some republicans wh did not vote for president trump when he ran against jo biden. many of them with the exceptio of two, these are people who are pretty engaged in th process all said they felt tha it was politically motivated hands mike pence using tha term i can guarantee you you will see more republicans repeating that politically motivated term what it does for donald trum it allows him as he looks at someone like round desantis to say wait a minute here, we lik the santas but we have t support trump. this is an attack, if you will against all republicans. even those who don't like trum are seeing it that way >> i want to unpack this eugene, maybe you can tell m because you talk to republican

and democrats. it is not a politicall motivated investigation, isn't it incumbent upon everyone democrats, republicans independents the press to make that point even if there are folks wh agree with wanting to defend president trump? former president trump >> yeah, it is on everybody' -- especially in this world w live on. -- the differentiating between th legal and what's happening there and the political. there are political things obviously swirling around this moment right now not the investigation, thi moment you have donald trump -- doing what he's always done, staying to his voters, this is why he and his team -- feels like it's going to b beneficial to him. he's saying to them, i am th only thing standing between yo and democrats coming after you they're coming after me becaus they're coming after you that is donald trump's ammo. that's why we're going t continue to see that republicans got on board reall

quickly despite the fact tha even his own spokesperson said that the da's offer did no tell them that there was actually unrest coming o tuesday. >> danielle, i want to get you reaction to some comments from the minority leader in the house hakeem jeffries abou vice president pence's comments this is what he told m colleague jen psaki today. >> pence knows better. he has embarrassed himself, an that's unfortunate george washington and hi farewell address to the nation said that the constitution i sacred lee obligatory upon all that means everyone. that includes former president of the united states o america. >> danielle, do you think that the former vice presiden embarrassed himself? >> i think he does so on a regular basis. the man doesn't have a spine and here's the thing, remember that mike pence wouldn't get into his own limo to leave the

capitol building on januar 6th. he was unsure about where he would be taken he wasn't sure about who i driving the car. so you would think that the ma whose name they were chantin and for whom they built gallows for that he would stan up and say, you know what? no one is above the law. democrats and republicans both believe that when the facts la out the truth will come to b there. so, if they believe that donal trump's innocence, then le this case go forward kevin mccarthy tweeting ahea of time and saying, oh, well we're going to open up a investigation into the investigators. that sounds a little bit lik fascism to me. >> this is not even the only case this is just a case we are looking at this week there is still bonnie wilson's case down and fulton county. and then i am still waiting to hear from the special counse from the justice department. we are going to turn though to talk about some other news tha is happening eugene, it has been reported

that the biden administratio is considering restartin family detention policy fo migrants i'm talking children in cages, frankly. the department of homeland security says that no decision has been made. eugene, what is the white hous saying i have to imagine having bee in that building there are a lot of people that spoke out against family and separation, a lot of people had things t say about former president trump's policies and now they are in the very building talking about the ver inhumane program many people decried across the political spectrum >> exactly, democrats spent lot of time talking and callin president trump's immigratio policies from beginning to end racist and inhumane. president biden has said tha himself. they said they're going to d things differently so, when you talk to peopl even within the administration about them possibly bringing back family detention, that' something that's concerning to some of the folks in the

administration it is not something that sitting well with people and especially progressives. we heard from a lot of the about the concerns about this. i will say the secretary mayorkas, the department here, he had said over and over agai that he likes to have conversation he likes everyone to put everything on the table. this may not be what they en up doing, especially after the backlash it is concerning t progressives and democrats who spent a lot of time saying tha president trump's policies are racist >> i mean, there is a real possibility that on that ver point, it is president trump former president, trump an current president biden, tha are on our debate stag together next year so, would this not give donald trump some ammo here >> i hate that phrase. >> we should have said ammo -- you note i mean. >> no pun intended, i know wha you end. i have a different opinion o this

i think what the president i doing is very smart. they appear to me to b anticipating potential attacks from the former president an other republicans generall speaking as we gear up for 2024 so, they focus on immigration, there are couple other issue that the white house as signal that they're paying attentio to in my view, a signal to thos independents, those swin voters, wait a minute here joe biden is not som progressive guy. he is still centrist democra joe. and i think strategicall speaking, whoever -- is very smart here, wait a minute, let's put some of thes things out here so the america people know that we're payin attention to him as it's been stated, it's not clear indicator that the president is going to lead i that direction it is a clear indicator that the president is focused o those types of things. that's absolutely smart, gearing up for his nex presidential run >> well, we're going to have t leave it there i think cages are pretty unpopular. eugene daniels, shermichae singleton, we'll be watching daniel moody, i can't wait t hear you're going to stay on the podcast this week.

i will be listening. next, folks, you stay with us. there is a disturbing new bill in florida that some folks the could shut down blac fraternities and sororities at university and college campuse throughout the state yes, i know you're wondering how do we got? here we're going to hear fro to florida state legislature on that. create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. chairs, gotta go... okay! i'm thinking couches... or loveseats? yeah, loveseats. something about loveseats make me feel happy. kevin...? i bought the team! ♪ cash brothers!

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inclusion programs at all of florida's colleges and universities are under attack. this is after members of the

state legislator passed hous bill 999 the legislation would ba florida's institutions o higher learning from, quote, a financially supporting any programs or campus activitie that espoused adversity, equity, and inclusion or critical race theory rhetoric. although this is not florida's first merry-go-round o systemic attacks against black students, state democratic lawmakers are sounding the alarm. this particular bill could literally bar historically black fraternities and sororities better known as members of the divine nine fro florida college campuses universities as well here to discuss this our florida state senator shevri jones and florida stat representative anna eskamani i'm so happy to have you bot here representative anna eskamani how did this legislation eve make it past your chamber? >> thank you so much for havin us and to your point more than 200 people showed up for the

hearing, house bill 99 including members of the divin nine alumni and students are fighting back against. this all that comes from governor desantis and hi political ambitions, trying to out-trump trump has led him to attack public at escalatio k-12 and now, of course, highe education. >> senator jones icu repping for the man of alpha faye alph fraternity incorporated. the senate is going to take ou this legislation on wednesday. you called the language in thi bill vague can you expand on that >> absolutely, thank you having, me simone the reason i said tha it was vague, because of how i was temperature today. it can be interpreted to where you have some universities and colleges which will begin to look at this as, you know what these policies right now withi the divine nine, they go again the stop woke act. all this conversation about th elimination of the eye - it's a latest attack on cultur that republicans have continue to wage this war not just in florida, but we're

seeing it all across the country right now, simone >> you know, i am reall just fired up about. this i cannot believe that thi is happening in this country representative, to the point that senator jones dismayed, this legislation could impac groups like florida's states black student union, or th university of south florida as asian students in america. lgbtq+ right groups at florida a&m. i, mean students across the, board they have been speakin out in opposition to thi legislation. faculty members have bee raising their voices how are lawmakers like yoursel working to ensure that those voices are being hard as i relates to the senate hearings next week? >> this is definitely an insid outside strategy as we fight in the legislature are organizing and mobilizin everyday folks outside to be a part of the process and have their voices be heard. two senator joins's point, the legislation is vague the house version is actuall

more extreme than the senate version, if you can believe it it also bans specific gender majors and minors. anything that has to do with critical theory. so, of course, that means wome and gender studies program will be bubbling in the stat of florida i'm a graduate of that we're organizing all the alumn to talk about why thes programs matter. the efforts on the eye, this impacts kids with disabilities it impacts our veterans of ptsd these are such important programs we're kind of poking holes i this policy to also show not only how damaging it is to the economy, it's unconstitutional honey. we have the receipts to prov it with house bill seven being deemed unconstitutional by a higher court just this las week >> so, senator, look this is coming up this week on wednesday. i think folks watching, thei logical question is hearing th egregiousness of it all. is there anything you all ca do to stop this and can you also speak to

this point that i know that yo shared during some of th debate about this bill not a single universit administrator in the state o florida spoke out about this issue. i don't understand why >> that's because that's the type of formula florida that has been created florida has -- they are too scared to com even to testify on a lot o these bills that they know wil be detrimental to thei universities and for their student. not one of them testified. i think it's important for u to point out the obvious we're looking at it years, looking at how this can affect not just our fraternities an sororities but all other multi cultural organizations you have awakened a lot of these people are like if you'r going to do this in florida, you're going to try to creat an entire trade mark acros this country to try to mes with and continue to demea programs that have been create to make sure everyone felt lik --

have community in th universities >> anything you can do to stop it >> the only thing we can do to stop it, i think we need to ge our students engaged in this moment well teachers don't want to do it, because they feel like they're going to be, fire yo can't fire students. you can't take funding awa from students. this is the time for the students to stand up and stand up against these attacks t govern desantis and th republicans. >> all right, florida stat senator shevrin jones an florida state representative anna eskamani, thank you bot very much. i'm going to stay on the story i appreciate it. >> - >> after the break folks, we are going to talk about how th tragic death of a black man wh had been hospitalized fo severe mental distress i reigniting calls for changes t policing in america, stay with us this cough. [sfx: coughs]

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charged with second degree murder three hospital employees wer also charged in the death of 28-year-old arose or tnl he died of asphyxia. this is the exact same way george floyd was killed. the video allegedly show deputies painting a hand cal and shackled oceana down for 1 minutes while he was experiencing a mental health episode. his family saw the video o thursday and they spoke ou about the brutal killing take a listen. >> at what point to a stop

preserving life at what poin do we consider mental illness crime? >> unfortunately, it is no just the family of otieno that is dealing with this i want to give a head tip to m colleague chris jansen who pointed out some of the recent fatal police and counter dealing with mental health whe i was on her show. in new jersey, 31 year old naj seabrook was killed after he called 9-1-1 himself to report a mental health episode. in indiana, a man was shot one day after submitting himself t a mental evaluation. in oregon, a local da' investigating possible crimina charges in a fatal polic shooting last month. joining me now to continue tha conversation is former dekal county, georgia, police chie cedric alexander, and vice president of advocacy an partnerships and shall remain. thank you both for being here. cedric, i want to start with you. i think that police, much like teachers, are often asked to d

too much we're asking police officers i situations that they are not trained for, even equipped t handle and i think that some may argu that if the police are called, you're going to get policing what's your response to that >> well, first of all, thank you, it's good seeing you, symone let me say, this for years i have been saying tha oftentimes, many of our police agencies across the country in communities really have no adequately trained our polic officers to deal with mental health issues that they will come in contact with whe they're on the street. there are significant number of people throughout the communities across this countr who are struggling with mental illness. until we are better trained to do a better job training our officers, giving them the tool they, need an addition to that incorporating some civilia mental health certifie employees who in some of these cases can respond to these things that would take polic out of these interactions. only if there is some reason t

believe that there could b someone seriously injured. i think one of the first thing that would happen, adequat trade officers, and be able to get people inside across the country to be able to assess o the scene. >> i want to put this data o the screen from the american psychological association, the point this out, since 2015 close to a quarter of people killed by police absence and the united states had unknow mental health condition. in november 2016, and th american journal o preventative medicine, 20 to 50% of law enforcement fatalities involved in individual with a mental illness. you hear these numbers, insha. you heard what cedric wa saying how can we get these numbers down >> the first problem is that w are sending police unwinnabl situations that no matter ho much training they get, they

are not going to suddenl become expert mental healt professionals. that is a background and training that takes. years it's not fair to ask tha a police officers. we have 240 million calls th 9-1-1 each year. that's 200 and million instances in which somebody is seeking government help an deserves a response. two thirds of those calls ar for things that none of us would consider a crime, lo level incidents like noisy neighbors or needing hel getting into your house or you apartment if you are locke out. 5% actually involve issues o violence were all of us should be concerned that there is somebody who would either ge hurt or somebody else will get hurt in between, that there is lots of calls that are simply for what we saw on the scree earlier. mental health crises, but we need is a mental health expert to respond we actually have those example across the country we've seen dozens of

jurisdictions roll out a menta health specialist bert approach, with the police are actually then supported to focus on the jobs that they are trained t do which is investigate and solve serious crime. and leave issues like mental health crises for the expert that are best to respond t them so, we have another way to d this it just takes getting out of the conversation which is ofte pending police against everyon else to say, what's the righ first responder? that's the way we need t address this crisis. >> part of the conversation, insha, reagan to this defund the police conversation. i've said before that doin away with police departments i not realistic form of action how do you think, cedric, that legislatures could b re-imagining funds for polic departments to have mental health services? >> well, and many department across the country, currentl on commission of public safety mean yeah, bliss right here in our community, we have

resources available wher civilians are qualified to respond to those types o crises we don't have them around th clock all the time that's certainly something we're working toward i think what's important here, we need police, we need all th support, communities need al the support that they ca muster an order to bring thi to attention we keep talking about this issue, symone, and man agencies across the country, until the training is there, one thing your other guest mentioned, she's absolutely, right no matter how much training we give polic officers, that's not going t be the area of expertise here's what can happen, we can train them, when they respon to these, and they can mak note an observation that there is a clear mental health crisi that's going on that they're trained to be able to go back. to slow things down and attemp to bring to those situations she's absolutely correct

and i support what she's saying -- >> cedric, insha, we are going to continue this conversatio at another date. there is something that can be done people should not be losin their lives. i appreciate both of you all i insight and time thank you >> thank you >> folks, we are not done here yet. we are continuing our series celebrating her story with sarah thomas she is the first woman - in the nfl i have more i can say about he but you will just have to hear it after the break te something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. oh! it's daylight saving time. what's the big deal? gasp! what's the big deal? what's the big deal? what's the big deal? what's the big deal? ♪marching band music♪

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constitution starts with we, the people, in order to form our perfect union. but we only apply to rich, white men who owned land ove our nation's history, that w has expanded thanks to in many respects women, oftentimes women of color, who've done the work to expand that definition of we this month on simone, in partnership with - know your value, we ar highlighting the game changing barrier breaking women doing that work right now. today, we start with sarah thomas you know, since its creation i the early 19 twenties, the national football league has relied on a team of official to ensure each game safety and fairness until 2015, all of the full-time nfl officials were men. all of that changed with mississippi's sarah thomas a longtime athlete who excelle

at softball and basketball thomas was kicked out of the all male basketball league tha she played on for 12 - she refused to be sidelined. after hearing about a football officials meeting from her brother, she quickly began earning her stripes, literally the arrest is actually history thomas rose up through the youth games two major colleg games to become the firs full-time female official in the nfl. in 2021, she became the firs woman to officiate a super bowl sarah thomas joins me now. welcome to you, sarah. oh my goodness, i'm so happy t see you. you were - i'm so happy to see you. you are an outstanding athlete people, as i just said, i don' think people really understand softball, basketball what pushed you to football, especially in this world >> it's crazy. as you mentioned, i had played in the men's churchley for three years. and i was just like, what am i going to do? being 23, i had played sport my entire life

when i was on the phone with m older brother, lee, i said, hey, what are you doing tonight he said, i'm going to football officials meeting. i said, can girls do that? that's literally how this al started. i had no idea that women wer officiating football i never went to a football game i said, hey, that's all guys out there officiating. i also never let my gender kee me from doing something that i was willing to do. >> you know, the official ofte has to make unpopula decisions. these decisions can spar backlash from fans, even the players, the coaches how do you navigate that challenge in what is still a male dominated environment >> well, symone, seriously, just remember billie jean king i believe, was the one tha said pressure is a privilege being a former athletes, the pressure of me being out there and the challenge of it neve kept me from continuing to

pursue this dream i had no ide what's going to happen but when i say pressure is a privilege, those of us that ar able to handle that, we don' press. we continue to lean on our mentors. none of them look like me. i had to lean on the guys that had done this before me an continue to dig in deeper. >> i love those words from billie jean king pressure is a privilege. i like that. i'm going to start using that. i think this is maybe somethin you told your three children you have three children. you also have a young daughter what do you want all of them t learn from what you have achieved and the work you stil have to do oh my goodness here are the babies. oh my goodness, yes! >> symone, honestly, my kids bailey is here, this is my angel. this is the posse of girls tha hang out at my house of course, i have two young me that i raised in 2020 and --

what i tell them is that all these girls they know, there i nothing that you are not capable of doing just becaus you are a girl just continue to pursu whatever dream it is if you hit that roadblock, jus look at it as a speed bump >> i love this >> just capitalize on your failures and they will tur into some of your greatest successes. >> ladies, can you just sa celebrating her story with me. on three, celebrate her story! oh my goodness, i love this. sarah thomas, you ar absolutely amazing i love me a good girl from mississippi. my dad was from clarksdale this will close this at well today. yes, ma'am >> i love what you are doing symone >> think you goodbye, ladies. thank you guys out there for watching symone on this sunday i am symone sanders-townsend that's a wrap for us, honey. you can catch me right here on

msnbc, weekends at 4 pm eastern, anytime over on peacock, and new episodes on the msnbc hu every monday on mondays peacock show, w will be celebrating her stor the entire program talking to women who are changing the game in their industries, including some o these young women ceos i caugh up with and the recent kno your value in forbes summit. if you want more of the show you can find us on instagram twitter, and the tiktok. politics nation with the great reverend al sharpton start right after this break (psst psst) ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spray flonase sensimist daily for non-drowsy, long lasting relief in a scent-free, gentle mist. (psst psst) flonase. all good. i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. uhhhh... here, i'll take that. [woo hoo!] ensure max protein, with 30 grams of protein, one gram of sugar and nutrients for immune health. (cecily) oh hey seth, you getting ready to roll?

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