honestly, they use these words they don't know what they mean they brandish them in thei political rhetoric to attack everybody on the left. and people go along with it. no one ever stops and says what do you actually mean by these words^ >> and breonna did the right thing. i wish more journalists woul do that in press conferences and congressional hallways what do you mean by critical race theory, what do you mea by woke. the right loves to throw the stuff around you gotta go on the offense, you can't just play defense al the time >> mehdi, great to see you enjoy the rest of your evening coming up on ayman, the gop' blind defense of trump republicans. rushing to his side. they are not even sure wha they're defending. plus, congresswoman zoe lofgren, a member of the january 6t select committee - i'm gonna get her reaction t trump's arrest prediction, and his attacks on the manhattan

da that and the critical election case that could drasticall affect your voting rights, and it's all thanks to a republica gerrymander in north carolina. i'm ayman, let's get started >> there's a lot of new news tonight and the trump manhatta da investigation today on - michael cohen said he has been asked by the manhattan da' office to serve as a rebutta witness on monday. >> so, this morning i di receive a whole slew of phon calls from journalists, asking me if i'm going to be back t the da's office tomorrow as a rebuttal witness to whoever it is that they're bringing their tomorrow, whether it's before the gran jury or it's just to meet with

him for an interview, again, i'm not sure but yes, i was asked to make myself available >> so, the witness, michae cohen, is rebutting. it - bob castella will testify on monday looking into the hush money payments made to adult film star stormy daniels trump's attorneys asked the da -- late last night, after trump's surprise social media post protecting his tuesday arrest, we learned that manhattan da - sent a message - assuring them that efforts t intimidate them would not be tolerated. it's not every day about suc an important law enforcement officer feels compelled to ask wage the fears of his staffers republicans continue to defend donald trump and attack alvi bragg, despite there being n charges filed and no indicatio that charges will be filed

-- chris immunity says -- senator lindsey graham say alvin bragg, quote, has done more to help donald trump ge elected president than any single person in america today that may be the case in some circles, but does not mean alvin bragg should not follo the rule of law? alvin bragg shouldn't be dissuaded from fulfilling hi elected duties just becaus republicans might feel sorry for him. but far worse is what mike pence said today remember, when you hear this nothing has even happened. >> the fact that the manhattan da thinks that indicting president trump's his to priority, i think, just tell you everything you need to kno about the radical left in this country. it just feels like a politically-charged prosecutio here >> let's be clear. the radical left, well, that's a lazy shorthand almost as lazy as woke

that means absolutely nothin nowadays republicans use it when they have nothing of substance to say. but what's bigger than that is mike pence wants to call the situation politically-charged, despite not knowing anything none of us know what alvin bragg will do. this is all a reaction from on man, trump, posting on socia media. nothing more pardon the pun, but it's a sad indictment on the republican party. kicking off tonight's show, -- david cay johnston, professo and distinguished lecturer a -- college of law gun kershner, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. great to have you all here wit us glenn, i'll start with you first, let me get your reactio to this news that we got today about tomorrow's grandeu essential. michael cohen, standing as a rebuttal witness for bob costello, who's also - former lawyer. how do you see that playing out? what's at play here?

>> you know, it doesn' surprise me that they may be inviting michael cohen back to shed some light on whatever it is bob costello says the reporting is that one poin in time, when michael cohen wa thinking about basically flipping, breaking away from donald trump, beginning to tel the truth about his own crimes and the crimes of donald trump bob stella was dispatched to try to keep michael cohen back in the fold. i tell, you if i was a prosecutor, and i got to dig into a guy like bob costello i the grand jury, boy, and have whole lot of fun doing people may not know that often prosecutors will grand jur cases exhaustively what do i mean by that they will put every witnes before the grand jury that the believe has relevant evidence. not just relevant evidence tha might incriminate the target o the investigation and for th investigative law, but als potential defense witnesses. for example, if i wa investigating a murder case an i got -- defendant might offer a bogu

alibi witness, i was gonna mak sure i put that bogus alib witness before the grand jur so i could create my entir blueprint for the trial in the future that's what i feel is going on here - i would welcome bob costello with open arms, and i woul recall michael cohen to set th record straight. >> it seems like that's what he's doing we'll see how this plays out but the end of tomorrow. lisa, i want to ask you abou what mike pence said there breakdown for us how alvin bragg is simply following lega procedure here in trump's case >> bob costello, reportedly, it's coming in tomorrow, not a the request of the manhattan da's office, but at the reques of trump's attorney. there's a provision of new york's criminal procedure la that allows the defendant no only to ask for notice whe they might become the subjec of an indictment, and to appea themselves, but to also make a

similar -- when they are the subject of a criminal charge or they ar about to become the subject of a criminal charge. and they can make that request to have a witness on their behalf come in so in terms of what mike pence is saying, that this i politically-charged, again i'll go back to what you sai in the introduction. this is politically changed in part because of donald trump's own making not because of what he's sayin on social media, but because h and his legal team inserted bo castella into the grand jury proceedings that the da wa going along with smoothly, until bob costa got involved for tomorrow's proceedings >> david, you've been reportin on trump's finances for years. you probably had the bes insight of any of the reporter i've spoken to about what thos finances look like based on what you know, an your history of reporting on this, what do you make of this strength - case potential here? >> we don't know how he's gonn shape the case the number one issue that i se for all the prosecutors is, ho

are you going to define th case you plan to bring there's a lot of things yo could file charges of. but you want to have something that's rock-solid. i think that's why you've seen jack smith, the federa prosecutor, interview, apparently, every single employee and guest a mar-a-lago who had access to donald's rooms, where they found the classified documents so, alvin bragg's is doing the same thing he's making sure that th defense witness was -- doesn't come out of nowhere an muddy the waters you want to have a very clea case and i've watched cases particularly when i wrote abou a great length in the l.a. times, where the failure o police to interview ever witness a car crash wher little boy was killed resulted in an acquittal. because witnesses came forward with stories the da wasn't prepared for >> so, you've pointed out that castella also represents rud giuliani in the fulton count investigation, and he's also

represented steve bannon how do you see - impacting this case in new york? >> i think, going back to what glenn said, if our prosecutor, and i got the opportunity to take bob castella's testimon tomorrow, i would certainl exploit the fact that bo costello is enmeshed in trum world eight ways from sunday he's a longtime associate firm rudy giuliani. as we mentioned, he' represented giuliani not onl in the ongoing fulton county investigation, but als represented him in the souther district of new york's ukraine investigation. that's the investigation tha -- and slow, his involvement with trump world, we haven't even gotten the bannon -- it's just so deep an long-standing that his credibility could be easil tarnished to so for donald trump to take to truth social today and call bo costello the most importan witness in this case i borderline laughable, give

that he has his own incentiv structure here, and it has nothing to do with telling the truth about michael cohen. >> what would you say to critics who are looking at this, perhaps, with a little bit o skepticism and saying this cas is a bit small, it's not worth the time where the resources it may appear to be politicall motivated? >> you know, any violation o the law is worth pursuing. but you know what, i think it' well-placed criticism. i maintained for a very long time, donald trump violate federal statutes he's a federal problem that should involve federa solution that looks like federal indictments. let's face the department of justice as legged behind. i think it's unfortunate tha states are being made to g first. local district attorneys are it looks like, going to be the first one's the prosecutor criminal former president of the united states.

i think that is law enforcemen turned on its head i think the feds should've gon first. you've now seen another post b donald trump that feels a lo like what he posted on decembe 19th, telling everybody to com to the say and protest now, he's posted something ver similar. i'm about to be arrested o tuesday in manhattan, protests take our nation back - i really find it head-scratching, to put it mildly, that the feds continue to lag behind. but you know what, good for th state and local district attorneys who are stepping u and trying to hold donald trum accountable, at least for some of his crimes. >> david, i want you to weig in on that you've been around for about seven years talking about trum in hush money payments i want you to reflect on the moment we find ourselves on. how we went from this fairwa back in 2006 to this weekend where former president trump i tweeting or posting abou

getting arrested just talk to me about th significance of this momen that we find ourselves in. >> well, remember that when th billy bush tape came out wit crude comments, the republican suddenly saying, oh, we need t do something - this issue came up and so did some email issues it was a diversion donald is a master he's a master con artist he's the most successful con artist in the history of the world. and now, when he's trying to d in rallying his followers, trying to rile people up, is again a diversion. he's terrified of bein indicted he's terrified of being in handcuffs, even if it's fo five minutes, and having to be fingerprinted and mugshot. that's the core thing you need to watch here, and i don't kno that his support is going to survive these arrests. we've already seen that hi numbers are dropping in number polls, despite his claims, tha the strength is growing ever day. a key thing to remember abou

donald, he just makes it up. the substance of what donald tells you is how much money he has, how great he is at golf he just makes it up. >> that's a reminder for us al to wait and see what happens this week. and not to believe anythin he's posting about on hi social media lisa reuben, david cay johnston, glenn kirschner, thank you for your time tonight. after the break, our conversation continues wit congressman zoe lofgren, forme member of the january 6t select committee but, first jessica layton' here with the headlines. >> stories we're watching this hour, vladimir putin i scheduled to meet with chinese president, xi jinping, i moscow tomorrow. the leaders are expected t talk about the ongoing war i ukraine. the two-day state visit will b jinping's trip to russia since the full scale invasion of ukraine. the meeting comes after puti made a surprise visit to the russian-controlled city of mariupol ubs bank is buying rival ban

credit suisse for 3. 2 billion dollars. the swiss president says tha recent banking turmoil had destabilized credit suisse, an the deal was needed to calm th global banking sector. the city of miami beach will b issuing a curfew starting at midnight tonight after two deadly shootings during spring break parties this weekend two people died while a thir person is still in critica condition. and those are your headlines i'm just escalated more ayman with ayman mohyeldi after the break. you get advice like... just stop. go for a run. go for ten runs. run a marathon. instead, start small with nicorette, which will lead to something big. i'm feeling better. body pain? headache? nope. all in one and done. cuh-congestion? better. cough? fever? better. mucinex all in one relieves 9 symptoms in 1 dose. it's not cold and flu season. it's always comeback season. charmin ultra soft has so much cushiony softness,

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of the trump legal side over the member of congress who might know the ex presiden better than most having spent month investigating his role into th january six insurrection direction. joining me now is zoe lofgren, a member of the 16 selec committee. and she was an impeachment manager for trump's firs impeachment trial. she's also a member of the house judiciary committee. congresswoman, thank you for joining us this evening. i want to get your reaction to donald trump's posts, claiming he will be arrested on tuesday without any evidence, you have a unique perspective on th power of trump's words what did you think when you sa it >> well, i was concerned the last time he asked peopl to protest, a mob attacked the u.s. capitol so, that's a concern, we don't know whether he will in fact b indicted, but to call out hi mob, or followers is a concern

in fact, the fact that speaker mccarthy had to say today. that he was against violence means that i'm not the only on who's concerned about this >> glad you brought that point up, it seems like he was tryin to walk back his own statement yesterday in terms of coolin down the intensity that he helped amplify i talked about this with m panel before the break but i'd like to ge your take on home th republicans generally have bee reacting to trump's post he hasn't even been charge with anything and as you jus mentioned kevin mccarthy announcing that republican will investigate any use for federal funds that are used to facilitate the provision o justice by soros-backed da's across the country that's his words not mine. and this comes as the hous oversight committee is going t

investigate the january si committee, that you were a par of >> well, it's disgracefu really for kevin mccarthy, he's secon in line to the presidency, a speaker of the house, to say that he is going to interfer with prosecutors who are doing what they think their job call them to do is highly improper. i can't recall a time when that's ever happened before. for political leaders to try and intimidate a prosecutor is just wrong i don't know what this case is about other than what i read i the paper. it wasn't something that the january six committee looked a but i do know this, if a prosecutor feels that he or sh has to file an indictment, because they believe beyond reasonable doubt that a crim has been committed, it's not u to us in the congress or other elected officials to try and undercut what they're doing. it's not what the rule of la calls us to do it's really pretty pathetic. >> i want to draw on you

experience in something yo said as a judiciary committe member, a former house impeachment manager, a forme member of the january 6t committee. you've been talking about ho donald trump has avoided accountability for a long, lon time i want to play you a bit o something that you said back during the first impeachment watch this >> i would like to note, the argument that somehow lyin about a sexual affair isn' abuse of presidential power. but the misuse of presidential power to get a benefit something doesn't matter if it's lying about sex, w could put stormy daniels cas ahead of this. >> you mention stormy daniels, the hush money payment they're almost as a joke, ar you surprised that this no might catch up with donald trump, and it might be the first time he's held accountable for committing a alleged crime? >> i don't know. i was actually referring bac

to the clinton impeachment where republicans tried to morph lying about sex into a high crime or misdemeanor. i'm still trying to figure tha went out as i understand, from readin the paper, what the district attorney is looking at is no simply a falsehood about wha he did, but a failure to account for a proper way and counting it as a legal expense which would then be ta deductible it's not just lying about sack it's the other ways that i was being treated. >> before i go i want to ask about special counsel jack smith's investigation into wha i think a lot of peopl considered to be the mos egregious of donald trump' crimes the january 6th insurrection -- reports that smith's recen targeting of people close to the president on january the six, people like ivanke trump,

jared kushner, is quote, a signal to some observers that the investigation may b nearing a conclusion can you draw in your experience, being on the 16 committee, wha do you make of that reporting, and with that be a fai assessment that if you'r getting to that inner circle you're probably coming towards the end? >> well, i don't know. the investigations work from the troops up to the top and that's what we started wit assistance in the like and ended up with th principles most prosecutors do the same thanks so, if he's now getting to ivanka and jared and people in that category it's possible. but he hasn't told certainly the january six committe members. and he hasn't made a announcement and that's proper. if he has something to say he'll say it in an indictment. otherwise, he shouldn't sa anything >> my earlier colleague, glenn kirschner, was expressin disappointing with the case of

the department of justice ha been moving when it comes to holding donald trump accountable compared to stat of, like we're seeing in georgia and here in manhattan. what do you make of that critique, has that apartment o justice been moving at a slowe pace than you'd like to say? >>, well i think they should b further along than they are. we don't know for sure, but it looked like they weren't investigating all the things that the committee had looke into until after we done so. and they kind of wonder why, why the delay. but it looks like the specia prosecutor is moving quickly a this point, and i think th sooner that it's concluded either there is an indictmen or they decide there's not a indictment, i think the better the public needs to know whether something is going t happen or something isn't. and having it delayed serves n real positive interests. although, obviously he needs t be careful and make sure he ha all the facts.

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and it's causing a fractur rift within the gop. we know donald trump stands on all, this helping ukraine isn' in the united states's interest, and if he were president, he should be able to magically en the war. our florida governor ron desantis, while, he went eve further this week. calling the war a quote, territorial dispute. these views from two of th gop's biggest name signal major shift from isolationis for a party. that's known for its hawkishness on the globa stage. republican senators like lindsey graham, roger wicker and marco rubio all called out rhonda sanchez for downplaying the war. rubio in particular has ha some sharp words saying that it's obvious for rhonda santas doesn't deal wit foreign policy every day a governor of florida. let's bring in our sunday panel, david rohde, msnbc contributor an executive -

and christina greer, associate professor of political science at florida university. great to have you both with us david, what do you make of desantis's ukraine comment, an the divide it's prompted withi the gop, referring to what's happening in ukraine as territorial dispute? >> lock, it shows that donal trump's influence, and in some ways his transformation of the republican party i was surprised by desantis' response he clearly thinks, and polls show, there's a big chunk of the republican base that's increasingly isolated. and it doesn't see russia as a threat and that's a message tha donald trump has been pushin for six years at this point. and frankly, tucker carlso also with fox news has adopted this position as well. it's not a territorial dispute it's a war of aggression there is a struggle betwee authoritarians like vladimir putin and between the u.s. and europe and ukraine right now so, i'm surprised, it's amazing, this transformation in the republican party >> it's incredible to thin this is the republican party o reagan that once wanted to stand up to the ussr at th height of the cold war christine, i want to play fo

you will what vice president kamala harris said on th colbert show earlier this week take a listen. >> when you've had the experience of needing an understanding the significance again of international rules and norms. and the importance of th united states of america standing firm and clear, about the significance of sovereignty, territorial integrity, the significance of standing fir against any nation that woul try and take by force. another nation if you really understand the issue, you probably would no make statements like that. >> do you think it is a matter of understanding the situation as the vice presiden eloquently said? and ifnot, is desantis's position a positive or negativ for him? >> desantis is really trying t position himself as a leader

who is going to tie it all together all these things, his larger argument is that americ has been weakened by thi wokeness, that he can't define by crtc, by its diversity, and because of that we need to g back to being strong again he's essentially, giving a version of make america grea again, in this isolationis fashion. so many of the members of th republican party sadly wan america to be this group brute force nation that agrees wit nations like russia. that can just come in, tak over when you listen to the rhetori of the republican party, the leaders of the republican party, the desantis's, the trumps this is what they're espousing sadly, we don't have enoug members of the republican part leadership to say, this is actually not a road we shoul ever go down we remember how we were in world war ii, we know that i doesn't end well for so many innocent civilians but they're so afraid of the dynamite that they have in donald trump they don't know if desantis ha

a chance, they're sittin quietly on the sidelines o these two men taking their party in the wrong direction for the entire country >> david, help me reconcil something here. you had this new axios poll that shows that four and five republicans want the u.s. to remain the world's leading superpower but fewer than half of the support giving ukraine weapons and financial support to sav itself from russia's invasion. how does it make sense how does the united states i their eyes, remain a superpowe and remain influential and remain a leader on the world stage, but not help ukrain defend itself from russian aggression >> i'm sorry to give this to two word answer. but again, it's donald trump in many ways, he was the kin of have it all presidency, you don't need to even engage in diplomacy all around the world you didn't need to deplo foreign -- u.s. troops anywhere, and trad

agreements -- he would jus re-write these trade agreements, he talked about what china issues with mexico, with the border and it was all painless. and i think those fals promises from donald trump they have impacted a segment o the republican party yes, they think we can be th most powerful country in the world. but stand by when russia invades one of its neighbors it's extraordinary to again, vladimir putin is an indicte war criminal now and you still have donald trum and in a way ron desanti saying, it's not a big thing and again, it's an amazing shift in the republican party. >> what i was gonna say quickly, i love how you have these toug talkers like mark gordon - calling out ron desantis, bu remaining silent about donal trump. i think it tells you everythin you need to know about how afraid they are. of donald trump. not so much apparently o criticizing ron desantis a this point dave and christina, stic

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only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ >> folks, we're gonna leve with you a few weeks ago we ha a conversation about the new chair of the house oversight committee on this program. someone you may know, jame comer. we talked a lot about hi craving in partisanship, w thought it would be a one-off. little did we know tha commerce tenure has been s prejudiced, so one-sided, that we've had to cover his antic every week sense and this week is unfortunately no exception house democrats are no accusing james comer o coordinating with lawyers with donald trump to stop trump's longtime accounting firm mazars, from producing evidenc related to trump's tax dealings days after that accusation was made, oversight democrat released a new report alleging that trump and his family, failed to report nearl $300,000 worth of gifts from foreign governments. during his time in office.

as commerce aims to be taking step back unnecessary trum probe, surprise, surprise us he's wrapping up his investigation into president biden and his failing. we pressuring the pressure department rounding house an that's the gators access t some of the biden family i banking activity report. -- you can believe it calme claims that a possible trump indictment is an attempt t distract from those efforts. >> it almost looks like it's a effort to detract. but at the very least, it's an example of a two tier system >> comer, of course, offered zero evidence for that claim let's bring back my panel to talk about this, christina, ca you explain how halting a prob into trump's taxes, an launching one into biden's financial activities, makes an

judicial sense to you. do you think even comer himsel sees the hypocrisy here? >> no, ayman, it's befuddlin in so many, ways we know tha so many democrats especially have been frustrated no one's really digging into all the financial misdoings of not just donald, trump but his entire family. now they enrich themselves and their entire tenure. while they're washington and lee,, c and subsequently being continuing to do so once the left 1600 pennsylvania avenue. the biden investigations i there is something there it ma be a substantial conversation. but it definitely seems as though it's a deflection it's partisan. and it's just not what i needed right now it's not focused on who it should be focused. on which is the vast corruptio of donald j trump. >> david, republicans complain when democrats wer investigating trump, that they weren't focused on the issue

that americans care about. how does this help inflation which they promised to combat. how does this help medical dru prices, how does it help anything >>, look comer thinks that helps republican chances o winning back the white house i guess. it's purely partisan, it's really obvious and what's striking here i that he has stopped th democrats that have team i these documents from mazars, from trump's accounting firm and one of the things th democrats found that courtes of documents from mazars was that ten foreign, the allege allegation here is that someho china secretly controls th biden family while this mazar shows that th ten foreign countries paid $750,000 to the trump hotel in washington while donald trum was president. that includes saudi arabia malaysia, qatar, and of course china.

that's real money goin directly to the trump family business while he's presiden of the united states it's a criminal investigatio into hunter biden now, but joe biden has released his tax returns, there's no sort o evidence leading to this conspiracy that comer is talking about. at the same, time he's shuttin down investigations into clear payments to the trump family through their hotel that happened while donald trump wa president. >> the hypocrisy is absolutely stunning let me play for both of yo this clip of fox host, bil hemmer, of all people callin out comer for failing to provide the dirt on hunter biden. watch. >> it's rather incendiary, we'll see whether or not you'r on to something. again, five year investigating. nothing just yet >> nothing just yet. how bad is it when the republican propaganda network, fox, is calling out that guy james comer, for failing t

deliver on hunter biden? christina, i'm sorry, apologize. i wanna get both your thoughts but christina, go ahead? >> just briefly, ayman, some republicans are starting t recognize that they're pulling the threads. jared and ivanka - looking at children. they have a lot more in thei docket than hunter biden ever. well so obviously th republicans love - they're making it random things like about barack obama obsessed with hunter biden i the laptop, et cetera. it's all out a deflection. we need to stay focused. we saw jared kushner at th olympics, we've seen how muc money they may, that's jus from the hotels. but even once they've left the office, deals that they're still making, we saw how the ripped off the american public the secret service paying to stay at trump property the frustration that i think s

many democrats specificall have, and, sadly not enoug americans have is that donal trump for those of us who have lived in new york long enough, he's always been a grifter, scammer. , so his time in d. c. was n different. and it's not just, time it's the entire family of crimina enterprises. that are taking money from the american people. when you have someone, lik comer, who is essentiall trying to deflect and aid an abet the trump family gettin away with these crimes it really says something about the state of our democracy and i say this all the time on msnbc, or in a frightening moment in our democratic republic >> i agree with. you david, final thoughts fo you. if you lost fox news, who do you have left? >> you don't have suburban voters and this is the problem. they're appealing to the bas and hunter biden conspirac theories i agree, absolutely with wha was just said.

i think frankly republican should be talking abou inflation, that's how they could've performed much better in the midterms but they didn' talk about that. they're not talking about th economy. and things that i thin independents and suburba voters care about. they can fire up the base as much as they won but there's a pattern now of them losing national elections over an over again when they just focu on their far-right base. >> when they just focus on hunter biden's laptop. david rohde, christina greer thank you so much. greatly appreciate it as always up, next a major update on a critical redistricting cas that we've been covering o this program for months. it's now in the hands of a questionable set o conservative justices. stay with us feeling of finding the psoriasis treatment she's been looking for. sotyktu is the first-of-its-kind, once-daily pill for moderate-to-severe plaque psoriasis for the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding that outfit psoriasis tried to hide from you. or finding your swimsuit is ready for primetime. [dad] once-daily sotyktu is proven

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(seth) and now that i'm rolling with verizon, i get why more people choose it. (vo) but hurry! this offer won't last long. verizon. supreme court heard oral arguments in a major gerrymandering case that could have significant implication for voting rights. but here's the thing, the cour already ruled on this case jus three months, ago back then th court to lean the left with a to 3 divide favoring liberal-leaning justices and i ruled that the congressional lines drawn by state republicans was an illegal partisan gerrymandering. but during the midterms, the court shifted to the right and when those justices were seated, suddenly there wasn' an opening and an extremely rare move the north carolina supreme court announced that it would re-hea the case surprise, and if the justice rule differently this time, th

new congressional map the stea of abuse would skew heavil republican, possibly with as many as leaning districts an as few as thre democratic-leaning lines ultimately, this case is about who gets to make redistricting decisions and it could hav nationwide consequences becaus this case is als simultaneously before the u.s. supreme court. and what the north carolin justices do will likely affect how the nation's high cour handles the matter i've got the perfect person to discuss this and more, joh visliano at, oh the ne president of the nationa democratic redistricting committee. john, great to have you on the show i appreciate your time i need to get your thoughts on the north carolina supreme court re-hearing thi redistricting case and just how unusual, ho bizarre that is. >> thank you for having me on.

we truly appreciate you having this conversation with you viewers -- created this organization in 2017 we knew we had a long road ahead. i'm not sure we knew we had th road ahead that we currently see. because now we see tha basically a perpetual error of redistricting that we're currently living through we're trying to gauge, and you're seeing this in nort carolina i want to touch o this because what we see now for the past 40 years, are the ferris maps in this country an that's really impressive, it's exciting, it's a testament t our work for the past several years however, or what's happening i north carolina's unprecedented and extreme. you're starting to see republicans really lash ou with the reality that they'r trying to put into a box and having to run in fai districts, the biggest concern that i have as these new republican justices that tak control and seemingly have n -- reality of trying to stop. in and making new decision that they haven't had before it's really a problem. and it's not something you see every day, it's very, very concerning >> correct me if i'm, wrong,

again this is a case that' also in front of the u.s supreme court, it's known as moore vs harper in that docket we've talked quite a bit about that case, and the independent state legislator theories, - as it obtains to what we saw i 2020 with the presidential election -- but if the north carolina cour rules differently the high court's case could become moved, right? >> it's unclear. i think it's up in the court struggling with the court recently aske for more briefings, as a new thing that we're gonna have ne submissions coming up tomorrow and it's not clear what th courts gonna do i think the board is startin to travel, both lawrence wit the reality of the dee partisanship that's riding through each one and trying to run off each other. and figure out how best to

manage the processes because what's happening, that path of children to re-hear a case, is already been decided this is obviously we saw thi in dobbs nationally. it's no different than that. north carolina state supreme court decided that they're gonna re-hear, nothing's changed. >> nothing's changed >> sorry >> i was saying fundamentall nothing has changed in the cas itself it's the justices that a change it's not the case. >> let me turn to another state, you've got the supreme court over and wisconsin, stat supreme court there on april 4th, excuse, va voters there i believe we'll have to decide the possibility that a three conservative majority can flip in that state supreme court. you've been on the ground in wisconsin for several races. that set the stakes for what's at play in the state there >> it's really important places because they have the states - in april

and that's abnormal, it's quit a different than most states where they have a normal election cycle we've been engaged with thes graces for a long time and trying to monitor them lift them up and make sure the nation as a whole is looking a them with the importance the need to see that there is really a great justice, a future justice, hopefull running right now in wisconsin a tremendous candidate, most importantly, a candidate - and that's the core of thi issue. that we're currently startin to deal with where justices especially if they're talking about nort carolina again, they run as partisan which is fairly new for north carolina it really skews the way that they're able to perceive democracy. >> let me get your thoughts, finally, if i can about 2024 you just took over the nationa democratic redistricting committee, a very importan role i would say given wha republicans are trying to do on a state level

what plans you have for th next election cycle? >> i appreciated i knew there's so much mor work to. do we have 11 active lawsuits, we still have two of, whic we've talked about, won two of which are in the supreme court a level we've acted -- redraws that are gonna tak place in states like ohio, north carolina, and texas is currently redrawing some of th state legislative districts. the reality here is th redistricting is current it's something that some folks historically may think is a tenured thing, ever tenure activity, currently finding yourself in a plac where this is gonna have a impact in 2024, and it'll have an impact well beyond that >> and maybe every ten, year but it certainly fought ever single day in this country, in some quarter, in some way, i some shape john bisognano thank you s much we appreciate your time an insights >> thank you for having. we've got more coming back next, don't go anywhere.

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