hi, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york.

i'm ari melber in for nicolle and i'll anchor for the next three hours right now with a lot of news breaking out of new york as the d.a. alvin bragg moves forward with two witnesses who faced this grand jury today, robert costello a legal adviser to that key witness we all know about, michael cohen. he's testified today at the request of trump's legal team. under new york law a person who is expected to be indicted which in this case may or may not be donald trump but in an abundance of fairness, that individual can request a witness appear for them before this grand jury finishes its work. so that's part of what we're following on this big breaking news day. today cohen also on hand, this weekend he said he would be back today to address what costello says making him the rebuttal witness and this, today, is his third appearance before the grand jury. so, that alone makes all of this a major day and probe that is quite near deciding whether or not to indict donald trump. so, this would be one of those big news days regardless, and,

yet, i'll add the context that you pay already know, in fact, i bet you already know, because all of this comes amidst the unprecedented news that broke this weekend. donald trump for the first time ever going to post online that he says he expects to be arrested tuesday, that is now tomorrow and then calling for protests. this is the first time anyone who's held the office of president has done that and hasni coahuila and i have discussed right here sometimes going to the 6:00 hour or as we've discussed when i'm a guest on "deadline" or "the beat," we know part of what's happening even though it's a new version. he tries to up end the rule of law in many different ways. his new post appears to be both an effort to try to make it look like he is the one driving this process when actually if he faces indictment he is the one powerless, reactive with no control over this part of the possess. indeed, many have noted since saturday's news broke how really does feel like an echo of how he

tried to be the one to announce that fbi mar-a-lago search. he sought the appearance of control when, in fact, if you just think about it for a second his home was being searched against his will, whether he was the one announcing it or not. and let me tell you this, no one knows for sure what the d.a. will do. we do know the process is not complete yet. as of today these witnesses are still talking. the grand jury is listening. mr. cohen arrived just this afternoon at the manhattan criminal court. he did not speak to what was a growing group of reporters that we've seen assemble outside. cohen is scheduled to join me tonight as a live guest on "the beat" in the 6:00 p.m. eastern hour. all of this amidst a fluid and fast-moving investigation. and it comes as trump's lawyers fire a separate salvo in the criminal probe in georgia. new today, which we will cover later in this program, right now, i want to bring in our guest but i want to begin with a few question questions as we deal with this very serious, very intense moment that has

been reverberating, i think, these questions until at least since trump's saturday post. why would he be previewing his own possible arrest? what is the hard evidence at least in new york where all of this is coming to a head? and how should a nation committed to the rule of law respond to a former president now running for president who is, again, quite clearly undermining it? let's bring in the guests as promised, garrett haake outside the manhattan d.a.'s office, suzanne craig who has been reporting on his finances and taxes since 2016 and katie phang and host of "the katie phang show" and asha rangappa from yale law. garrett, i mentioned the hard evidence. is today just like every other day or different in any way?

>> well, ari, there is a certain sense of expectation today that this could be the final day for this grand jury, because, as you explained, the kind of quirk in new york law that allows a witness from the defense or what would be the defense this this case, donald trump's legal team, to appear before a grand jury, a process usually controlled entirely by the prosecutor. now, we know that robert costello and michael cohen who as you mentioned would get an opportunity to rebut his former legal adviser, both have gone into this building but i can't say there is any indication either have left. i hope you have flexibility in that 6:00 p.m. rundown because this could go a little bit later than anticipated. >> sure. >> reporter: with these two gentlemen testifying, really kind of what we expect to be basically going back and forth about each other's credibility. you know, costello, we have to assume, brought in by donald trump's attorneys probably approved by trump himself has really one mission, to undercut cohen, to make him seem unreliable, untrustworthy, something with an axe to grind

against donald trump and cohen who this jury heard from for five hours from last week alone has to defend himself and has to keep the grand jury as convinced as they might have been when they left on friday that criminal charges are warranted. that's all happening on the fourth floor of the building behind me and we'll know probably shortly after donald trump's attorneys find out, perhaps, you know, if donald trump decides to try to scoop the d.a. again with an indictment decision, what decision they have made, but as i stand here today, there has been one lonely protester, a pro-trump protester going back and forth with his sign calmly and everyone else is waiting, waiting to see which way this is going to go. >> yeah, before we lose you on that point, security, the moving cars, the normal buses in manhattan all pretty standard as best you've observed? >> reporter: more or less. we've seen the addition of some bike rack, some extra barricade, frankly some may be for the increased media footprint that

comes on a day like this. we know there have been suggests behind closed doors, interagency meetings in new york city trying to figure out, you know, what the posture for nypd and all the other agencies that work with the local police here needs to be for handling an indictment or more major protests if either of those come to pass of the we know that includes discussions with the secret service who will have an incredibly complicated and, you know, the word gets warn out, unprecedented task before them to work an indicted, you know, person charged with a crime through the courts here who is also a secret service protectee, something we would have never seen before and may not see again if that comes to pass. >> extraordinary day, even as we await -- as you reminds everyone what comes out of the process whatever that may be, garrett haake, thank you. we bring back our panel. asha, what do you see in the story right now? >> well, i'd like to point out the difference now between now and january 6th, the fact that

we have this history of trump mobilizing his supporters. you know, we're seeing law enforcement take that very seriously and hopefully they're prepared for any kind of that. the protesters, if they want to engage in that kind of activity, now also have precedent that there are consequences to that behavior, and that trump is going to leave them high and dry so the return women be much less, i suspect, and hopefully we won't see any kind of violent activity. >> katy? >> i think at this point, we have to appreciate what you mentioned, ari, the gravity of what is going on. assuming we get an indictment returned by the grand jury in this case, it is, again, the adjective unprecedented has been used a lot, but it is appropriate here.

i also want to emphasize something i tweeted about this weekend, which is if we were a country of laws and we are rule of law people, whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony, that is returned by this grand jury, it is one of momentous import. it is a former president of the united states, never having had a criminal prosecution of a former president of the united states, even if it's a misdemeanor, ari, it's a misdemeanor that would be based upon the falsification of business records which is fraud so you consider that and the other thing i just wanted to mention for a second, ari, the fact that trump was invited to come to the grand jury to speak to the grand jurors. he declined and sent in his proxy instead but trump has no problem putting out on truth social and to other different social media platforms what his legal defense and position is. he should have done it in front of the grand jury and might have sealed his own fate by sending in costello today. >> suzanne, you have covered so many twists and turns in all of this.

i'm sure you're familiar with the idea out there where people say, why has it taken this long? was has he gotten away with so much, and, yet, there are many examples in life and in law where the thing you slip on is not the nuclear code, it's the banana peel. it's not the triple felony, it's the misdemeanor. it's not in al capone's case terrible mafia activity and murder but tax evasion. i'm curious given your work on the sort of guts and math of this how you see what may be shaping up to be a case that will in some sense boil down to math and lies if charged? >> right. you know, i just first want to say because just watching garrett outside the courthouse and just reminiscent, i've covered a lot of trials at that courthouse and they can get intense just with the media out there. i covered the trial of shelly silver, the head of the new york assembly, and that media crush was just incredible.

actually got trampled in it so just the media down there alone with the chaos of new york city, it can get really wild, forget protesters down there. right to bring in extra security. you're right. sometimes it is the thing that you don't expect that comes at you and i think for a lot of trump's life when we've looked at it and kind of -- when we talk about what evidence might be going before the grand jury it's not unlike stories that i've done on donald trump and a lot of stuff that we have looked at and we found in some instances that he has engaged in tax fraud, you know, and that's what we found is now beyond the statute of limitations but goes back decades, but what the grand jury is doing now is not dissimilar to what we would do in building a story like we did in 2018 when he found -- when we found that he engaged this tax fraud and that involved the money that he inherited from his father, he inherited hundreds of

millions and was able to inherit that through tax fraud and we built that story, we had an incredible database of financial records, we had general ledgers, but then we also went out and we did public records requests and we matched it all up to come to that conclusion and i think we now are looking at what the grand jury is seeing and what they have been going through, you know, they're having to hear testimony. we had witnesses and then you go back and you try and find supporting evidence to bolster that to come to that conclusion in this case, you know, we found that he engaged in tax fraud. they're going to have to come to a conclusion of whether or not they should return a bill of indictment and think that all of -- all of the pieces are going to come together as they look at that. >> well, susanne, you're comparing your process. the other thing about that, you had to make that clear to readers, however intelligent and interested in the news, they're not accountants and if this case is brought, they have to make it clear to a jury, not to lawyer,

not to people who could tick off, for example, a new york tax fraud statute and how it differs from federal tax fraud, right? you have to -- i'm curious with your view on that side of it, whether you think, at least what's publicly come about seems strong and clear to you or some have argued kind of tough and convo lawsuited? >> you know, ari, that always is a challenge and i covered the trump organization trial that was late last year that came back with a guilty verdict against the trump organization, and going into that, i sat through a lot of days of testimony and going into it, you heard how complicated it was going to be, but prosecutors broke it down and they make it accessible. they try to and the jurors, you have to give them credit. i always sit through trials and i think at the end, these people are smart and they take it in and they process it. but it does take some time to break down w 2s and 1099s and

how did they evade -- not pay tax on this or that and that was a lot of the components of that trial, but the jury, give them credit. they came at the end and they came out with a guilty verdict and they seem to based on some of the exit interviews i read they had a very clear understanding of what the trump organization had done. >> yeah, asha, i want to turn your attention given your experience to what i mentioned, these witnesses there today. it's kind of surprising to people watching who have followed this case and followed the stormy daniels -- we remember michael avenatti and michael cohen, of course, and here we are in the bottom of the ninth and you get this costello guy and go, which one is this again? and, yet, this relates to how trump has effectively, shall we say and at times allegedly corruptly used intermediaries, cutouts and lawyers, mr. cohen, being one who according to his testimony and the feds took the fall for it. so mr. costello also has played

that role, in the movies sometimes they call it a fixer and to be clear fixer doesn't automatically mean you're a criminal but it means you might do more than file motions. so with that in mind let me read from this. we have some of the reporting from back in 2019. costello said he was speaking with trump's lawyer giuliani at the time, reassured cohen in an april 2018 email, cohen could, quote, sleep well tonight as i said, fixer talk. he has friends in high places. emails from 2018 and other documents don't mention a pardon although that would be seem to be an implication when dealing with the fed, no pardon could help donald trump from a future white house with this probe and goes on to say cohen provided the emails to corroborate his claim that a pardon was dangled before he decided to kwoop rate with federal prosecutors. if mr. costello has information factual or helpful to donald trump, by all means it should be a part of the process. that's only fair, on the other

hand, if mr. costello long before he was out to quote, unquote defend trump today was someone involved in this thing, which at the time looked, i would say, shady or worse, that may cut against him. what do we make of mr. costello and his ninth inning entry? >> i mean, he is, as you noted, another one of trump's roster of sketchy lawyers and i completely agree with you. i'm not really sure how this is really a credible witness for trump because he was involved in this whole scheme of dangling pardons back in the mueller investigation but this is a hail mary. i mean, look, you know, d.a. bragg does not have to prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt to the grand jury. he has to show that there's probable cause to indict and presumably he's already taken into account any credibility issues for cohen and he undoubtedly has corroborative evidence also. i don't believe this is going to sway him or the grand jury, you know, i can't say for sure, but i think that this really gets to

trump's desperation to not have charges filed and we saw this at mar-a-lago where he try that wacky civil proceeding to derail that investigation, he's trying in fulton county now to quash the special grand jury's report and i think, ari, it's for two reason, one is it's much easier for him to spin the narrative when he's only under investigation. once those charges are filed and evidence and facts are in black and white, that becomes the story, not what he's saying and, second, once the charges are filed, the wheels of justice start turning and he can definitely delay but it becomes much harder for him, you know, to use all of his tactics and rhetoric and instigations to violence to stop it and i think he understands that and he's terrified. >> katie, same line of questioning, your analysis of how this fits in and what asha mentioned, that even if mr. costello has something helpful to trump, we have a low

bar. it is roughly around the odds of will there be another commercial break on the news? almost certainly there will be, although every so often you could go a couple hours and go where you don't get one but this is a low bar and likely you can achieve probable cause if you have evidence, because there are people, again, probable cause is a standard just to remind everyone and katie you could break it down for any arrest, in other words, without a grand jury process in a different situation they catch someone, they say, you are holding the tv outside the store, probable cause of arrest. later you say, i have a receipt. okay, and now you're not guilty. but it doesn't take much in our wheels of justice to get probable cause and give us that breakdown before we go. >> not only does it not take a lot for that but everybody knows that saying, you could indict a ham sandwich. a grand jury could indict a ham sandwich. why? because the process is skewed.

if you're being honest, the process is skewed in the proceeding in favor of the prosecution because defense doesn't get up there and is not cross-examining witnesses but to asha's point, you know, the corroboration that's objective, that's not michael cohen or kellyanne conway or others that appeared but the documents and the theory is the falsification of record, the payments to reimburse michael cohen was booked as legal fees but there were no legal services provided. that's black and white. there's no retainer agreement. if you look at the actual physical documents and this goes to susanne's point as well there will be a paper trail that can implicate people along the way including donald trump. costello is not so much the defense for trump but pore to go after michael cohen and it's that relationship between costello and michael that's important. michael says there was zero attorney/client relationship. he was never being represented but in 2019 he waived

attorney/client privilege anyway. if michael thought there was something that would be so damning he never would have waived it so costello appearing everyone including bragg would have anticipated the pitfalls and the problems and the achilles heel in the case and ends up being such a nonstarter the grand jury thinks, you know what, thanks for that but it's nothing. we'll listen to the facts and evidence provided thus far and reach a determination based on that probable cause standard. >> susanne, your final thought? >> i don't see from trump's point of view along this line of questioning why not, why not put the witness on today. you have a chance to have somebody in there. we don't know what he has to say. i'm going to be just very interested coming out. looking forward to hearing in michael cohen even was called back in today. but it's kind of a hail mary but why not? i mean, it's sort of where i would think trump may have been out when they did this.

i'm just going to be watching to see if michael cohen was called back in afterwards to rebut anything. we don't know what costello has to say. he may have something that may, you know, further sort of dent michael cohen's credibility. we just don't know and it'll be interesting on the other side of all of this not tonight but months from now to talk to michael cohen more about this grand jury process, i mean, the news of the day that may just move on but very interesting to see it, just to get this close-up already of the machinations. the grand jury and i'd love to know more on the other side of it. >> likewise and we'll be trying to do that. i want to sank all of you. let me tell folks we are just hearing that mr. cohen did walk out of this courthouse. we don't have details on what he did while he was in there, whether he testified. but we do have eyes on him from our reporters that he walked out. mr. costello according to what we believe is still inside as you see. it is a moving and fluid day down at the white house and

we'll be with you and anchoring through 7:00 p.m. we have a lot coming up including mr. cohen's appearance with me assuming he is available and free in the 6:00 p.m. hour. we also have bombshell news out of a different probe. down in georgia, today is the day that trump's lawyers came through with an attack not only on the grand jury report but any potential future indictment so we've read through that motion. it's brand new and explain why that's new and look at why is this happening right now? meanwhile, congress is now jumping into this all of a sudden, republicans saying they want the d.a. from new york to testify and some are echoing donald trump's attack on the rule of law while others are urging calm. we have that entire story for you including who is actually being careful and who is not with some of our politics and lawyers ahead. stay with us.

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well, the american people rejected political extremism all throughout the country in the most recent midterm elections in 2022 and it's my expectation that they will continue to do so, moving forward. we're on the right side of the american people, the right side of american values and on the right side of history. >> democratic leader hakeem jeffries speaking to jen psaki on msnbc and slamming trump's policy as extreme and the embrace of the ongoing attack on his own potential indictment, which is evident as the party's most powerful chairs are already trying to interfere in new york accuing the d.a. of an abuse of authority. this is before any charges at a time when it's still possible

there may never be one. those are powerful gop leaders doing it as a political message. they don't through congress have authority over a local criminal probe. they don't fund it or oversee it. at the same time, this weekend's earthquake from trump is also opening a fissure within the republican party. take speaker mccarthy. he echos trump's argument any charges are politically motivated. he's saying lawyers think this is a weak case against trump but the speaker breaking with trump's call for protests on saturday saying clearly people should not protest if trump is indicted, mccarthy also telling reporters, quote, i don't think people should protest this, no, nobody should harm one another, we want calmness out there. a sign that mccarthy knows exactly what it means when donald trump talks about protests. they're not automatically peaceful. now, this is a split among republicans. you have house member, powerful chairs siding with trump's attack on the rule of law and loud allies like tucker carlson

openly lying about the january 6th attack which works to minimize it and lay the groundwork for a potential future incident but then in all accuracy you have this new speaker trying to kind of split the difference while calling for a peaceful and calm response. now, that is legally required, it's also pretty vital to have that on a bipartisan basis if our society continues to be governed by law. on this important topic we are very excited to have a very special guest, congressman jim himes of connecticut is the ranking member well versed in these issues especially the need for a nonpartisan approach especially on matters like intelligence and the rule of law, welcome, sir. >> good to be with you, ari. >> i'm curious what you think about that split and what the speaker said, because if he didn't say that there would be a lot of people blasting him and demanding that he should and now on this perhaps low but necessary bar, he did. >> yeah, you know, it's just so

tawdry, ari. there's a lot to talk about here but, you know, imagine if a democratic president had been accused of trying to cover up an affair, wait, you don't have to imagine that because what happened to bill clinton, the very same republicans impeached him when he was president and here the republican party has reached a point where they are defending somebody who was covering up an affair with a porn star and, oh, by the way, they are supporting a member of their party, george santos who lied about everything, who committed fraud in an election in order to get himself elected. they're defending paul gosar who did a video of killing aoc and the tawdriness of what the republican party has become. would the party of reagan countenanced any of this? i'm not terribly impressed speaker mccarthy somehow found it in himself to say we shouldn't be violent. my god, that's a low bar.

>> understood. as for mr. pence who has been a party to so much of trumpism but then found himself targeted for, again, a word you use relevant, assassination by trump fans, he's saying despite strong attacks condemning trump overjanuary 6th, i should note this is coverage of his appearance, pence did not push back on the latest call for protests. he says he thinks demonstrators need to do so peacefully and in a lawful manner. again, i'm raising this because you see the environment we're in. it would be odd not to note that we're coming out of the insurrection which is still under investigation, that we're coming out of an attack on an fbi office when -- around the time that donald trump had his home lawfully searched. no one has turned up any evidence that it was unlawful and we're all governed by law here. what does it tell you since you're on the intelligence side that the experts and the authorities view the potential for violence as a really key part of this and how do we go forward over the next weeks no matter what happens which we can't predict? >> well, donald trump is doing

what donald trump has always done and, you know, most notably did before january 6th when he catalyzed the violent and vicious attack on the united ates congress, a thing i got to experience up close and personal. no surprise. donald trump is obviously deeply damaged and what's more surprising, he can bring whatever the perjury is, 20% or 30% of the american public, his supporters along with the idea that even though, look, there's nobody around today who honestly believes that donald trump is a boy scout and yet you have these republican congressmen somehow suggesting that it's them, not a jury, that should determine whether this case has merit or not. so, look, the good news is that i think that law enforcement and those charged with keeping the peace won't get caught unawares again the way they were on january 6th, the nypd knows how to handle these situations should something happen in new york but what we really need to reflect on is, you know,

horrifying statistic, that an awful lot of donald trump supporters think that violence is a means to achieving what they want to achieve. donald trump himself does nothing to do to defoous that and milquetoast statements from the speaker of the house don't help in that regard. >> when you look at the claim that some of the republican chairs of committees in the congress you serve that they should then bring in d.a. bragg where i don't believe there's a direct oversight or anything, is there any validity to that, or is that just them interfering? >> of course, there's no validity to that. they know in this country you are innocent until proven guilty and if prosecutor bragg fails to make his case in front of a jury, donald trump will be acquitted. they have no role to play in this process. instead what's happening is the need and you really see it most intensely among house republicans, you know, senate republicans in honest moments will tell you exactly what they think of donald trump.

house republicans have decided that their wagon is hitched to donald trump and they will defend him, come what may, and they're doing it right now. >> yeah, congressman himes, thank you for weighing in here on an important night. appreciate it. >> thank you, ari. >> absolutely. ron desantis has his own version of response to what trump is doing and he has some leverage potentially depending on what goes down in florida. we are going to talk extradition and the law and some of the politics which appears unavoidable. we'll get into all of that with special guests next. when you add price drop protection, expedia pays you back if your flight becomes cheaper. so when you go searching for all the best plates, you'll always know, you found a good deal.

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there are a lot of different angles coming out of a weekend or a former president said he actually expects to be indicted of a crime so we've covered the law and security and just talked to a member of congress about taking all of this seriously, being respectful and nonviolent in our society. there's also plenty of politics and we're not going to ignore that in the news. take florida republican governor ron desantis today speaking out on the possible trump indictment. and here's how he's playing it, people reading it as a kind of backhanded defense where he till gets in a slap because he is attacking what he calls the political weaponization from the manhattan d.a. is the kind of thin we were hearing from house republicans but he went out of his way to go further and remind what this potential case would be about saying he, quote, can't speak to or, quote, spend time worrying about hush money paid

to a porn star. the implication being according to mr. desantis, this is something you'd hear about with trump and not him. desantis also said he would not get involved, which is another way of him already signaling that if anyone is looking to have him play a special role as governor or deal with extradition, he is not going to be the one to put his hand or thumb on the proverbial scale. with all of that cooking let's bring in some experts who can speak to policy, law and the politics of this. we have two msnbc analysts. rick, i mentioned you have experience because we knew you for a long time as a top journalist. this story involves both how journalism gets done and sometimes how it gets suppressed with deals and fixers and money and whether it crossed the line and the politics of this so starting with mr. desantis, what do you think he's doing in today's response? >> well, first, ari, i want to talk about as a journalist the overuse of the term

"weaponization." >> hey. >> particularly by the folks on the right. in this particular indication when a district attorney is a weaponized version he's prosecuting people who violated the law. depression must have said it a million times. he is triangulating between the pro-trump folks and the folks who are saying let the course play it out. he in his candidacy, he's actually going for trump voters, so he doesn't want to alienate them. he warrants to pick up some other people. it's a delicate, surgical maneuver there and i'm sure it's guaranteed no the to please anybody. >> right. well, as you say, i mean, this goes to how credibly the rest of the country sees ron desantis, he certainly has been effective at building his name up, he sort of supercharged himself in florida and started with a narrow initial statewide election and then improved on that so down there, they think he's a tough guy, right, whatever that means to the gop but you're saying if he plays this too hard against trump,

people will see him as basically what, being kind of in common cause with trump's foes which they hate. >> right, and he can't align himself too closely with trump because he's going after the trump voters. the other thing that he did i thought that was a little strange, i think he mentioned the word -- the name george soros as many times as he mentioned weaponization, soros controlled prosecutor, soros controlled lawyers. that also is not a broadly -- it's anti-semitic for one thing. >> do you think he's appealing to that kind of trope? >> 100%. >> yeah, charlie, i want you to comment on all of the above and i'll mention in the spirit of fact-checking, if one has a theory that this type of problem for donald trump legally is only because of this particular prosecutor, right, you'd have to deal with the fact that he's got two federal probes going, he's got a probe in georgia. he had the mueller probe whatever people think of it overseen by bob mueller a

lifelong republican. the notion as i think rick brought up that the manhattan d.a. could be reduced only by that factoid or aspersion is weak but your response to all of the above? >> well, first of all, put in the context of how much pressure the trump campaign and trump world was putting on ron desantis, he has been the focus of a lot of their attention. when will he speak out? why is he being so silent? donald trump down in mar-a-lago is absolutely obsessed with getting the entire republican party on board here, so you knew that ron desantis was inevitably going it cave because his whole campaign has been predicated on not allowing daylight between himself and donald trump but as you were mentioning, he is trying to thread this needle by mentioning, you know, george soros again and again and again, which sends signals to the maga base, to the maga world to use the term weaponization of the prosecution, but then he throws in that little dig about the

porn star and covering up affairs, now, of course, what he's going to discover is that in trump's world, if you do not bow the knee, then you cannot suck up hard enough. i mean, that is not going to satisfy him. he could say all of those words -- >> it's not poetry, charlie, but it may be true. >> yes. and so, you know, donald trump is being, you know, is unleashing the steve bannons in the world against him but this is something that ron desantis and other republicans are going to have to navigate not just this week, but when the georgia charges come down if the doj charges come down, they're going to have to figure out how to distance themselves from trump without alienating his base. by the way, keep in mind the counterfactual because every republican could have answered questions about this over the weekend by saying, well, can we wait to see what actually happens? >> sure. >> can we wait to see what the jury does? >> charlie, this is what i want

to ask you, because you're not exactly the world's biggest liberal progressive hippie. >> no. >> that's not your thing so i'm curious about what this reveals about the state of gop line conservatism when i don't know about you but in the old days, if you are yourself, donald trump is the person saying he expects indictment, that's not exactly a soros-backed conspiracy theory anymore, trump saying he's going to be indicted. everybody knows about his misdemeanor skirmishes with the law. it seems weird, walk us through the weird place that the gop is devolved to where that alone isn't enough for other people to go, yeah, he says he'll be indicted, of course, legally he's presumed innocence and respect the process but that's usually a bad thing in the same thing he wants the bidens to be under investigation in ukraine because it's bad and wanted hillary clinton's email probe to go on because it's bad.

when blagojevich was charged with crimes, it looked bad. when he was convicted it was bad. what does that tell you about republican, some of them seem to be going to a different place where even that is suddenly allegedly not bad? >> well, that is actually the biggest question and i think that is the most important point because what donald trump is tapping into is the result of years of attempting to delegitimize the criminal justice system, to undermine the idea there is an independent judiciary or that prosecutors actually act on the facts and the law, and much of the party is going along with that. i mean, kevin mccarthy may say, i'm against violent, you know, insurrection but keep this mind what he's also done, he has unleashed the power of the majority in congress to attack a local prosecutor, to intimidate a prosecutor as if obstruction of justice is now part of the game plan for congressional

republicans, so one of the long-term effects of donald trump and of his ethos has been to undermine the fundamental respect or the rule of law in america's conservative party and that really is an extraordinary development and we're going to see that again play out over the next couple of years. >> yeah, i appreciate you breaking that down and in the times like this we also have to just in the orwellian sense of keeping the truth right in front of our noses, that alone is hard. we have to do that because there's nothing normal, okay or respectable about what you just described people doing, right, and that is sort of the other weirdest part of this, people literally saying aloud in public, oh, maybe it's not a big deal that someone might be a criminal. charlie, i want to thank you, rick is standing by, staying with me in the next block. why are they filing motions?

the newest one came out today. we'll break it down for you. we haven't done that yet. that's new coming up and have a new development in the dominion billion dollar case against fox news and this hour coming up as rick stays with us, how are trump's calls for protests playing out, what can we do as a nation to protect each other? we'll get into it next.

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former president now is continuing to stand by what he first announced this weekend, he expects to be indicted. law enforcement are bracing for that possibility without confirming that it's coming, or any protester violence that could come, preparations include perimeter security around manhattan criminal court, several hundred additional officers ready to be on hand for protests. i want to be careful and clear in what we are referring to, the former president called for something that "the new york times" reported this way, quote, mr. trump's post on saturday urging his supporters to protest and reclaim the nation carried unmistakable echos of the incendiary messages he posted weeks before the attack on the capitol. amidst those echos the associated press reports that perhaps this time may be different than last, noting that according may be different than last noting that according to their counting, quote, this generated mostly muted reactions from supporters, even some of his most ardent loyalists dismissing the idea as a waste of time or even, quote,

a law enforcement trap. now, when there was the court-authorized search of donald trump's private residence in the documents probe which i mentioned earlier and that comes after the insurrection there was once it was all said and done a large surge in threats against the fbi and a shooting at an fbi field office in ohio. we are joined now by a former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, frank figliuzzi, and rick stengel still with me. we've been discussing all of these issues. frank, i put it that way very carefully because it is entirely possible to advocate peaceful protests. everyone has every right to publicly gather or criticize this d.a. the d.a. of this city of new york is no different than any other official, publicly elected or otherwise, and there's room for that. but as "the new york times" put it, donald trump's wording doesn't sound in context with recent history like just that. the "times" called it more of an

echo of something that led to a very violent horrific insurrection. your thoughts on what we're seeing and what the government should be doing. >> so they're doing the right thing, it appears, right now. in fact, they're doing things it appears they failed to do in the leadup to january 6th, which is recognize the threat, understand the intelligence and most importantly act on the available intelligence. so rest assured, led by nypd and the entire joint terrorism task force led by the fbi in new york, they're handling a national, not just a new york-centric physical security challenge, but rather the national challenge of gathering the intelligence and getting out in front of something that could happen. now, people often ask me about this strange time we're entering into, ari, what's the greatest challenge for law enforcement. the greatest challenge is is something you alluded to, it's preventing an act of violence from happening while not trampling the civil liberties of

americans to defend themselves in court, to protest peacefully, freedom of assembly. all that has to be protected. and then understand that even though we've been through hell on january 6th there are no new authorities or powers that have been granted to dhs or fbi to combat domestic terrorism. we still don't have, for example, a domestic terrorism law. so lots of challenges. of course chief among them the defendant potentially himself, who is going to tip people off as to what he wants to be done. i do find it heartening that former vice president pence, speaker mccarthy seem to be shaping the narrative a little bit saying yes, let's protest but let's do it peacefully or don't protest at all. that's really important. because trump is going to key off of them as well. he sent up a trial balloon saturday morning, didn't he, to kind of detect who's with me, who's not, and how many forces can i rally behind me or not. and i think they're sending trump a message like hey, we're with you but we're not with what

you may be be thinking about doing. >> rick? >> yeah, i think -- i mean, frank is right. the new york city intelligence is really high and good. it was beefed up after 9/11. i saw that the young republican club of new york was going to protest. i'm not too worried about that. i think what we have to be worried about are these extralegal groups, the qanon groups, the illegal militias, the proud boys. but i trust the new york pd to police them. trump is not popular in new york city. he got 22% of the vote in 2020. but i do want to say one thing, and i would commend you for being so careful about this. the thing we have to be careful about is letting trump shape the narrative and manipulate it, which he has been doing. all of this drama about a possible indictment on tuesday. where does that come from? that comes from donald trump. his incendiary speech as "the new york times" said is getting us all worked up about this. we have to be careful not to

look at things through the lens that he is using, which the press has fallen for before. >> rick makes a great point. and frank, that goes to what everyone has to consider here, right? which is that in the run-up to january 6th it was both things. on the one hand it was clear that at a public level, whatever public knowledge and narrative comes from, there were many people who just did not see it coming the way it actually materialized. i think that's fair to say. and yet on the other hand to overreact, to rick's point, is to play into a bunch of public, you know, narrative and pr efforts that have nothing to do with how this process plays out. >> yeah, i mean, you're speaking to someone who spent much of my career in counterintel. and what i saw saturday morning was essentially a counterintelligence operation by trump. what do i mean by that? counterintel is about detecting, deterring, and defeating an adversary. so what did he do? he sent up this trial balloon, the only person in america who

thinks -- you know, who says he's going to be indicted tomorrow is trump. to see the reaction. where's my battlefield? can i rally troops? will people start talking about violence and in what way? and then, you know, can i even get the d.a. to make i astatement saying no, it's not tuesday. can i shape the narrative? that's the counterintel. we kind of fell for it. this network was quick to say there's no corroboration this indictment's coming tomorrow or anytime this week. but we're all talking about it and he is shaping the narrative. so law enforcement's got this real challenge where they're going to watch people -- it serves law enforcement's purpose also to check the traps, the extremist groups and chat rooms, how are they responding to the trial balloon. so there's pros and cons to what trump has done. >> yeah. and saz as you say, when it comes to checking that, many people monitor it. ben collins has been monitoring for nbc some of those places. and some of it's private but

some of it we know takes place on forums and spaces that some are hard to find but are still technically public. mr. collins saying there's been scattered anger but no concrete plan emerging at this time. that's something we're also tracking because again, no, we're not just repeating what the president says, we're monitoring the threat. thanks to frank and rick. coming up on this supersized edition of "the beat" as we watch and wait for anything that comes out tlrksz news out of georgia. we haven't had time to get to it yet. we'll do a legal breakdown. that's next. do a legal breakdown that's next. the new chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam who make...?

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welcome back. you are watching msnbc 5:00 p.m. eastern. i am in for nicolle.

so this is right now a live and supersized edition of "the beat." i'm ari melber. we are watching all the fallout from donald trump saying this weekend that he'll be arrested. that means he could become the first president ever arrested and indicted. the d.a. of new york appears to be poised to wrap up this probe. and that means either they reach a declination, they don't charge him, or when the probe ends they do. an indictment of trump would be significant and literally historic. here's how "the new york times" puts it. he would be fingerprinted. he would be photographed. and based on the truth social posts over the past few days, the threat clearly has trump rattled. i've told you if you've been watching earlier, or you're just joining us now at the top of the 5:00 p.m., mr. michael cohen, who was down on the premises today where the grand jury was meeting, joins me live. that's in our next hour. so you may be interested to stick around for that. but we have a lot going on now. maya wily and others standing by. what we are right now is a nation that is watching a president, a former president, say he's going to be indicted. that may or may not be true but

that's what he says. then you have his lawyers down in georgia attacking a case where, and this is important, he hasn't been charged at all. so that itself is a little unusual. they filed a motion attacking the atlanta d.a.'s basically probe and report up to this point. so that's the first official filing in a way by trump's team in the probe. we've heard from his lawyers. we know they're out there. but this is drawing questions about why they're doing it right now. the new filing is donald trump basically trying to have his lawyers move in that probe. for what exact reasons only they know. but their argument is that this whole thing has been unfair. they take about 50 pages, plus 400 pages of other exhibits and evidence, to argue that the special grand jury is basically tainted and unconstitutional, and they say that thus the d.a. should be disqualified from any further investigation or prosecution in this matter. they say the d.a. has been political. one section pulls, for example,

this is an image right here from the filing itself, where they say that this cartoon you see sort of in black and white courtesy of one of her campaign twitter accounts depicts her, the d.a., fishing. a recently subpoenaed witness out of a swamp. and they say that kind of cartoon, a political cartoon, could influence witnesses, it's not appropriate in this kind of investigation of this significance and that it undercuts the idea that this is an independent and apolitical probe. they also take aim at public comments that you may recall by the grand jury foreperson and comments five other juries have made in the local press and which have been made nationally. the filing saying, "collectively those juror statements reveal a tainted process incapable of producing valuable evidentiary material and throughout that foreperson's media tour and subsequent statements of additional grand jurors it became apparent this grand jury was improperly supervised or worse, improperly instructed from the outset."

as for the d.a.'s side, no comment yet in public from them. just this afternoon there was an update, though, in the probe. abc news reporting that prosecutors in the d.a.'s office requested an interview with trump attorney christina bobb. it's not clear what information they hope to gain, whose role in trump's handling of classified documents is under review in a different federal doj probe. reports are that bobb plans to deny that request, according to her lawyer john lauro. one echo is trump's lawyers getting lawyers. i want to bring in "atlanta journal-constitution" reporter greg bluestein. charlie savage pulitzer prize-winning washington correspondent. and here with me for the hour a former southern district civil attorney and former federal candidate in new york maya wiley. welcome to all of you. greg, walk us through why this matters. we're talking about a filing in a case where there's actually no case, or that is to say no case of d.a. vs. donald trump as a defendant. >> yeah, exactly.

and that's what was so surprising. there's no case yet. there could be but there's no case yet. the district attorney here in fulton county, fani willis, has said that charges -- or a decision could be imminent, but imminent in prosecutorial standard time is very different than imminent in our standard time. but look, my first reaction to this is they must be very worried. they're going on the attack right now. it's a sign that trump's legal team isn't going to wait around and see whether the former president is getting indicted. they're going to go on the offensive right now and they're going to try to do everything they can to damage or even end this ongoing investigation which has gone on for months and involved 75 witnesses. >> let me draw you out on that very point because we have a lawyer here, we're going to get into the law. but right off the top, you're a non-partisan reporter. you're covering all sides of the case. but you view this move when there is no filing against trump from the government, you view it as a sign of some level of worry? >> certainly. because we've already heard from grand jurors, not of course saying that donald trump will get indicted, but indicating

that big names. emily kohrs went on the record saying people will not be surprised by the names. we've heard from the five other special grand jurors, former grand jurors who've said it's going to be a massive list. if you're looking athose interviews how could you not be worried about what could come? >> yeah. i want charlie to read to you another part of this because again, it's a massive filing and the first real substantive way they've weighed in. they say trump was inexorably intertwined with the investigation since its insemgs, the efforts of investigation relate to his bid for a second term as president of the u.s. i wonder if that in your view is aimed more outside court than inside court. i don't think it's a serious claim that matters from 2020 are somehow a trigger sparked by his running for office. but there are people out in america who might think oh, gosh, if this is coming out now is it because he's running right now? kind of a non-legal or what we might call a pr argument.

what do you see here, charlie? >> i would assess that language, in fact a lot of this filing in the say way you just did. this is a pattern of trump's legal teams. i say that plural because he's had so many different ones in all these different types of litigation around the country he's involved in. some criminal, some civil. and it is very common for those filings to be written in a way that seems unuse bible for a courtroom. they're making arguments that are quotable, that jump out. they're good for newspaper writers like me because they're not turgid, they're punchy. but they don't really make a legally cognizable point. and that one seems like it fits within the pattern of let's dirty up this case and create suspicion around it in the mind of the public that it is, you know, politicized in nature even if it's not attachable to a particular legal principle we're trying to advance. >> you notice it as trying to be

quotable. >> absolutely. because it is quotable. you just quoted it. it's good fodder for commentary and for political coverage. it's not necessarily something that's going to move the needle when a judge is looking at the facts and the law. >> as you know, charlie, there's a great de la soul song where they say every word i say should be a hip-hop quotable. and there is a panache and a pride writers take in many forums of being able to -- out of the 10,000 words this is the one they know is going to go there. and lawyers do that in and out of court. when you look at this overall in the context of all the investigations, charlie, do you see georgia as something that is heating up or winding down or you just can't tell? >> i think it's definitely heating up. in fact, for a while we thought it was going to go first, and then suddenly it kind of out of left field, the new york case heated up again and now looks like it's going to go first. but all the indications are that fani willis is serious, the special grand jury has

recommended a series of charges that she now needs to think about whether she wants to take to a regular grand jury and actually obtain an indictment, but this is a long and intensive investigation that gathered quite a lot of evidence and the writing -- the smoke signals at least seem to be that she is quite serious about pursuing election charges and possibly even racketeering charges. >> maya, i want to bring you in. i mentioned that if this was legal coachella the only reason that we're giving georgia third, fourth billing in the news today is there's other big acts, right? if you have beyonce in new york, you only get to it later. but on any other stage, on any other normal day, random monday, this would be a huge deal. i almost notice it's not really ricochetting the same way. but as mentioned i want your analysis of it. you don't usually see people, especially politicians, but people in general kind of jump in and say hey, i don't know if you're going to indict me, here's a big filing. that is very unusual.

and again, i want to be fair. it's not prejudicially unusual. they have every right to avail themselves of the courts. but it's certainly striking. what do you see here? >> i want to say first that beyonce is a southerner. >> respect. let's go. >> just saying. but look, here's the thing. everyone is right. from a legal vantage point it is bizarre to file a motion saying i haven't been indicted but i'm going to tall all that has just happened unconstitutional, frankly and only to prevent my indictment. i mean, that's the only way except that of course it will fail because it's a very weak motion. and so the primary purpose is to do what the donald always does, which is the three ds. deny, distract, and delay. so this is serving one to -- right? he has said a perfect call. we've heard this from him before.

but perfect call to georgia to say find me a specific number of votes plus one more than what i need to win an election where we have also just learned that his own campaign had a report the day before he made that call saying fulton county, georgia at best, at best maybe ten dead people voted. i think there was one point where they were quoted as saying thousands of dead people voted. in other words, we know that there is a stream of evidence there that gives -- that should give him reason to be concerned about being indicted. so there's nothing in here that looks like a viable legal claim. and lots to indicate that he should be fearful of indictment. and i just want to make one other point about the legal claim. this special purpose grand jury that they're saying is unconstitutional and it's vague and all these other -- we've had them for 50 years in this country. not just in georgia. across many states.

but including in georgia. and at the federal level. so it would be kind of astounding to all of a sudden a half century later decide they're unconstitutional because they're inconvenience. >> hmm. yeah. all fair points. greg, on the ground there i will say that it was certainly sun usual to have this many grand jurors speaking out. and this filing, again, to the points i think all three of you have referred to, maybe for other public reasons, raises this point. in truth, if you want to get into it, and we've got time, let's get into it, there are more permissive rules on what grand jurors can say in this jurisdiction than in other parts of the country. if you go to school it's called federalism. rules my differ depending on where you are. so those are the rules. having said that, in fairness to mr. trump and the lawyers that he's -- are making this point, it certainly created some spectacle if not more to see all this stuff and all these folks speaking out even before this case was resolved. here for example is some of the

footage of the memorable foreperson. >> i will tell you it's not a short list. i mean, we saw 75%, and there are six pages of the report cut out, i think. if you look at the page numbers. so it's not -- >> so we're talking about more than a dozen people? >> i would say that, yes. >> did the grand jury recommend an indictment of former president trump? >> i'm not going to speak on exact indictments. >> would we be surprised? are there bombshells of who is -- >> i don't think that there are any giant plot twists coming. i don't think that there are any like giant -- that's not the way i expected this to go at all. i don't think that's in store. for anyone. >> greg. >> yeah, a reminder, by the way,

that the special grand jury recommends whether fani willis should pursue charges. now it's up to her to decide whether or not to pursue those charges. so even if they recommend 65 people on that list, it's still up to fani willis, the d.a., to decide whether to move forward with those charges. but look, you know, there's what, six different special grand jurors who've spoken, one on the record, five anonymously to the "atlanta journal-constitution." but i can tell you this, the fulton county judge, superior court judge robert mcburny, talked to all the grand jurors about what they could and could not say. so he set specific guidelines for what they could say and couldn't say. it seems to me -- it seems to legal experts i should say more importantly than me that they've been following those guidelines. >> yeah, i'll push you a little bit on that. i think that might be the case, the judge's public views certainly seem protective or helpful to those individuals but this is not just a case. and i think if you imagine -- if you did a thought experiment of a different individual in a different context, right? oh, we've got some breaking news.

robert costello, i believe, is speaking after having spoken to the grand jury today. let's listen in. >> five packets of materials. i would say that in total it was probably about four inches thick. i tried to get the manhattan district attorney to give the materials to the grand jury. that's the whole reason i produced these. most of which were compiled in 2018 and 2019. in 2018 i gave essentially the same information to the united states attorney's office for the southern district of new york. only after they notified me that michael cohen had executed a waiver of the attorney-client privilege, for reasons i have no idea, frankly it was a very stupid move by michael cohen because now we're able to tell the truth about what michael cohen was saying at any point in time starting in april of 2018. that's why i wanted to get those materials that i gave to the u.s. attorney's office and sat

for a two-hour interview with them back in 2019, after which you may have noticed the southern district of new york didn't do any business with michael cohen. there's a reason for that. he's totally unreliable. today after giving all those materials to the manhattan district attorney's office, out of 321 e-mails they cherry-picked six e-mails to ask me about. and of course they took them out of context. when they took them out of context, i told the grand jurors. i donate know whether this will ultimately come to fruition or not. i told them to ask for the entire packet. and i held it up. i said there's 321 e-mails. you need to see each and every e-mail which follow in chronological fashion and give you the life history of michael cohen dealing with our firm. i understand that earlier there were some comments made by the folks out here that you were waiting for trump's lawyers. we are not trump's lawyers. we do not represent trump. we have never represented trump. >> so what's the headline? how do you contradict what --

the fundamentals of what he's saying. how do you contradict that? >> what i'm going to do ultimately is release the materials that i i gave to the manhattan d.a.'s office and to trump's lawyers to the media and let you guys read everything because my only mission there today was to tell the truth about what michael cohen was saying at any point in time during the time that we were representing him. >> and what is that? >> oh, very simple. in april of 2018. april 17th, i believe. we met with michael cohen for the first time at the regency hotel at his request. michael was in a manic state. he told us that he had contemplated suicide, that he had been up on the roof of the regency hotel the weekend before, seriously considering jumping off because he couldn't face the enormity of the legal problems he knew were coming his way. his office had been searched. his home had been searched by the fbi pursuant to a search

warrant. and he was imagining the worst for himself. although at that moment in time he still hadn't been charged with any crimes. so michael cohen in that state of high anxiety, when he said to us numerous times i'm looking for a way out, i need an escape hatch, how do i do this, i need to know what my options are, and his options were as he mentioned, he said do i have a chance for a pardon? do i have a chance for commutation? i'm not sure he understood what that term actually meant. do i have a chance for a cooperation agreement? he said i don't understand why they did this to me because i was already cooperating with the house and with the fbi. of course he forgot to mention that he lied to the house, for which he was later convicted. so i of course following my obligations as an attorney explained each of his rights and what he could do. >> but do you have any evidence that he did not pay off stormy daniels on behalf of mr. trump? that's the heart of it. >> the heart of it is that michael cohen told us that he

was approached by stormy daniels' lawyer and stormy daniels had negative information that she wanted to put in a lawsuit against trump. so michael cohen decided on his own, that's what he told us, on his own to see if he could take care of this. so he sat with the lawyer for stormy daniels. they negotiated a non-disclosure agreement for $130,000. so i said michael, where you did get the $130,000? is that trump's money? no, it's not. well, where did you get it? did you take it out of your own account? no. again, how did you get it? i took out a heloc loan for $130,000. i said why would you do that? he said because i wanted to keep this secret, even secret from my own wife. he said if i took $130,000 out of my account she'd know right away and i'd have to tell her what's going on. i didn't want melania to know, i didn't want my wife to know. >> with all due respect, bob, you signed a waiver of your agreement. >> he did. >> but you're still violating the trust he put in you. >> no, i'm not.

i am honoring my ethical obligation. i've listened to michael cohen stand in front of the courthouse and say things that are directly contrary to what he said to us. my obligation is to bring the truth to both the district attorney and to trump's lawyers. that's exactly what i did. i sent them all of this material that i talked about before. i have 330 e-mails in chronological order. i have a memo of a -- a contemporaneous memo of the first meeting at the regency hotel. i have a memo of the two-hour meeting i had with two assistant united states attorneys and two fbi agents in april of 2019. i have a memo of a meeting that i had in may of 2019 with the house intelligence committee, three of their staffers, one of whom was dan goldman, who's now a congressman. >> so based on your testimony there may be another witness on wednesday. do you know who that might be? >> no.

ho's going to come in and say i guess -- what can he say? that i'm lying? i have the documents. now, the problem here is that the district attorney has so far not provided all of those documents to the grand jurors. i have nothing to hide. all of those documents were provided to the u.s. attorney's office. they did the smart thing. they looked at michael choep and said he's a convicted perjurer and there must be 100 instances in those documents of his him lying to us. so they said we can't trust this guy. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> we counted them up. 21 people sitting there. you can certainly tell some people were nodding their head yes, as you are right now, and some people just sit there with a stone face. i think two or three of them had masks on, so you couldn't read anything. but i was very surprised that one of them didn't say yeah, give us the rest of the documents. we had an argument in front of the grand jurors about why

they're not giving them the documents. he said some of that stuff is hearsay. i said really? actually, those documents were made and maintained in the regular course of business. they constitute business records. business records are an exception to the hearsay rule. so in other words, i'm saying give everything to the grand jurors. let them see exactly who michael cohen is and was at that moment. and during that first meeting, this is important, he said -- we were there for two hours at the regency hotel. he said maybe every three or four minutes, he'd be talking to us while pacing, like a wild tiger in a cage, back and forth, back and forth. he was really frazzled. he looked like he hadn't slept in four or five days. he'd stop in the middle of talking about something, point at us and he'd say i want you guys to know i will do whatever the f it takes, i will never spend one day in jail. he must have said that close to 20 times. this was his mantra all day

long. you think a guy whose mindset, right, at that moment is i'll lie, cheat, steal, shoot somebody, whatever it takes, i'm not going to jail. well, he went to jail. and now he's on the revenge tour. i understand it. but i don't condone it. and that's why i went in there today, to tell these people the truth about who the real michael cohen is and what he was actually saying at that moment in time. >> did you get any questions from the grand jury? >> yeah. we probably got -- i don't know, what would you say six or eight, adam? >> i'd say ten. >> ten. maybe ten. i don't know. can you remember exactly the questions? i mean, i don't remember -- >> clarification. >> just clarifications. but they were asking clarifications about the six e-mails. there's 330 e-mails. and i said folks, you can't take six e-mails out of context and ask a question. no wonder you're confused. if you read all the e-mails you would see that they followed in a chronological fashion and it made sense.

one e-mail would be in response to something that just happened before. but when you cherry-pick -- >> have you been in touch with mr. trump? >> no. not yet. i'm sure that i will speak to my client rudy giuliani and tell him -- and at some point i'm sure trump will know. >> did rudy urge you to do this? >> no. i'm the one who decided to do this. a lot of people cautioned me against it because i had nothing to gain. the only thing i'm doing is trying to tell the truth to the grand jurors because i read all these lies in the media that are being promoted by one side. if you see the full picture, you know -- listen, if they want to go after donald trump and they have solid evidence, so be it. but michael cohen is far from solid evidence. this guy by any prosecutor's standard, and i used to be deputy chief of the criminal division in the southern district of new york. i wouldn't have touched a guy like michael cohen, especially if he's a convicted perjurer, not to mention as i said the 50 to 100 lies he told us that are

in those 330 e-mails. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> i can't say that. could you -- you just don't know. i can't read people's minds. i could see certainly a few of them were doing what you're doing right now, shaking your head up and down. but not everybody. so i just don't know. i would love for those people to watch tv or something tonight or just remember what i said and say to the prosecutors, listen, we'd like to see the rest of those e-mails. don't cherry-pick six e-mails out of 330 and then ask costello questions about it. that's not fair by anybody's standard. >> just to clarify, michael cohen paid stormy daniels with his own money, not at the behest of mr. trump? >> that's what he told us. >> that's what he told you? >> yes. not his own money. money that he borrowed pursuant to a heloc. >> he took a loan. >> yeah. and why did you take the loan, michael? i wanted this secret. i didn't even want my own wife

to know. >> got it. >> much less melania trump. >> got it. thank you. >> just to be clear, did he ever specifically tell you that donald trump does not know about this? >> yes. absolutely. he said that. >> he said that? >> that's what he said at the time. is it true? i don't know. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> but i had to force that into an answer. they were getting upset because they asked me a limited question based on one of these six e-mails and i would volunteer information i thought the grand jury needed to hear. >> are you being asked to come back? >> i don't think so. i think this is it. we were there from maybe 2:15 to what, about 4:50? >> yeah. >> thank you. >> i have a statement here which i'll hand out to whoever wants it. >> thank you. >> okay? >> we've been listening to a man who says he was advising michael cohen but now can speak freely because he says michael cohen waived any attorney-client privilege. that man is bob costello. we're going to break down what

he just said. i've got to tell you, this was another extraordinary turn in what is an extraordinary case in new york. mr. costello detailing what he described as mr. cohen's state of mind, a frenzied and panicked state. he directly referred to, quote, suicidal thoughts, end quote, that mr. cohen shared with him at the time when he was facing legal pressure. how any of that is relevant to the hard evident would be a matter of debate. mr. costello as a legal matter talked more about mood and atmospherics than hard evidence. but nonetheless it's striking. the other thing we should tell viewers in context as we are covering this for new real time, mr. costello is on the trump allied side of things. we definitely want to hear and weigh what he's saying but he's not a random or independent witness he has turned on mr. cohen much the way others have turned. he currently represents mr. giuliani, who of course is on the other side of so many trump legal problems. and he's previously represented trump allies like mr. steve bannon. he has worked his way into this

process. he is telling us -- and that's why it's newsworthy and we wanted you to hear it yourself. he is telling us what he says he just told this grand jury that's meeting that is in the final throes of deciding things that may lead or not to an indictment. and so he says one of the key claims is that he is corroborating the later trump defense that michael cohen basically did this all himself. you may have heard the reference to a loan, to keeping it a secret from everyone, mr. dhoen's wife, mr. trump's wife, the idea that the initial acts, whether they were criminal or not, were basically initiated and created in secret by michael cohen and anything else that trump did later was basically catching up to what mr. cohen did. that could matter depending on the legal theory of the case. again, we just got this sort of brand new from mr. costello walking out. he was speaking i'm told in front of his law office after previously addressing the grand jury earlier today. other color, he mentioned that he was speaking to about 21 jurors, that they seemed attentive, they were paying attention. and he made his view, his criticism that he had to add or

push in the points he wanted to make because he didn't feel that the prosecutors were leading him to those points. really striking and coming at us live. and i want to bring back one of our new york legal experts, maya wiley. your reaction to what we just heard. >> well, it was a lot. and it was a lot in the sense that the clarity that mr. costello was saying i'm calling michael cohen a liar was very clear. we don't know what those e-mails say. and this is important. because what he was describing just in this news exchange, just in the interview exchange there live, was michael cohen being very upset after his offices and hotel room had been raided by the fbi. that's the live action of what was happening when mr. costello says he was agitated, he was upset. sure, he was. of course he was. anyone would be.

the question is what is michael cohen going to say about what he meant by the fact that he was trying to keep all this under wraps when he says this is the relationship he had with donald trump and he went in person to get his reimbursement for that hush money payment that donald trump personally wrote the check for and signed. so i think that at the root of this is sufficient a very damaging testimony from mr. costello, no question. he's absolutely right that michael cohen made a big mistake that would be a mistake for attorney-client privilege. but mr. costello, who in that room is saying after in that same conversation it was reported that he said you have friends in high places and i'm communicating that from rudy giuliani, it is unclear what all the colors that michael cohen will share, but it has always

been true, always been true that one of the reasons the southern district may not have gone after donald trump in addition to the fact he was a sitting president is they may have said we don't know if we can -- if michael cohen is going to come off to a jury with sufficient credibility. >> yeah. and -- >> not the same thing as hard evidence. >> you raised that. i'm curious what you think about the difference between impugning mr. cohen's credibility, which is a key part of any trial if he is offered as a prosecution witness, and just trashing him on his worst day. because saying that he was panicked, that he said words about throwing himself off the roof of the regency, which mr. costello just said, is that as i like to say around here, is that relevant to anything or is he just trashing mr. cohen? >> yeah, the work that i hear, i can't speak to his intent, but what i hear mr. costello saying is i want to make sure nobody believes michael cohen. >> right. >> so i'm going to give all of

this -- i'm going to paint this picture of michael cohen in a way that makes you say i can't believe a word this guy says because he's a combination of out of his mind, unbalanced, and doing whatever he can to save himself. and i just want to -- let's go in closer on this. if michael cohen is doing everything he can to protect himself, he certainly didn't do it very well. because he actually didn't enter into the kind of deal that would have protected himself more. so he literally decided he was going to just go all in in trying to expose donald trump. now, whether -- the problem we have here is we need to know what is in those other e-mails. how much of what mr. costello is saying is confirmed in those e-mail exchanges. but as -- but if i'm sitting there as a lawyer i am very concerned about the work that this does to the credibility of

a witness if i'm going to use this witness. no question. >> okay. so that's very important. by the way, as we've mentioned, mr. cohen is appearing here tonight. he will be abling to speak for himself and rebut any of it, as is only fair. but as you mentioned there's a legally valid part of this which is that taken together especially if there's other evidence that the office you used to work in, you were civil at sdny, they had this and thought this complicate it, that according to mr. costello the current grand jury is not seeing all that. nor need they legally. but sooner or later that's the stuff that comes out. all of that may lead to undercutting mr. cohen. also, this is the thing about litigating deliberate secrecy agreements. it's also possible that the very underlying secrecy that mr. cohen was executing on behalf of mr. trump meant as mr. tack pooeno said to me last week, of course it's not true. it meant that sometimes you keep secret or mislead about items because that's the nature of the

agreement. so mr. cohen -- again, i'm going to ask him about all of this. but mr. cohen might very well have said yeah, no, those steps were taken precisely because it was that purpose. and i think what we're seeing here from mr. costello -- again, apologies to everyone for how messy it sounds. but mr. costello, who currently represents giuliani and has been an an ally to trump, mr. tacopina who currently represents trump, what i'm hearing is a final response from you, i'm hearing the makings of a defense that says this thing wasn't really a crime, other people, john edwards and others, have done stuff like this, it's not a campaign crime, but if you do charge it as that not only is it legally not a crime but whatever was bad mr. cohen went rogue and did. and so it's sort of a -- amidst the messiness i don't know that mr. cohen looked to everyone -- people make their own minds. i don't know that he looked like the most fair or charitable narrator of someone he claims to used to help. i don't know. people can make up their own minds about any of these lawyers. but what we're seeing rise from

this process say multitiered legal and factual attack on what might be coming out of this office. >> i agree with you on both those counts. including in particular that he's saying you don't have a case because you don't have a credible witness because i'm going to do the work to make it clear. even if he felt as a matter of ethics that he should go and make sure this evidence is put before the grand jury, but we know it was trump's lawyers who wanted to make sure this was before the grand jury -- >> sure. >> -- so he was responding to trump's lawyers here not to -- while he's talking about his ethics we know it was at the request of trump's attorneys. fair. they have the right to do that. >> no, i thought that was a little misleading in that he said i'm just here as a person. and the real answer is again, they are afforded this right, they have every right to use it but if you're going to speak in public you have to be honest. i think mr. costello was at a minimum being cute. because he's not a random witness. he's not like a security guard

at mar-a-lago who got called in who just happened to be somewhere, a fact witness. he's being called in because the trump lawyers think he can help them. >> and if he was just being ethical, if it was all his ethics, he didn't have to do a press conference. >> yeah. >> he did a press conference because he wanted to make sure everyone knew that he had information he felt he could use to impugn the credibility of michael cohen, the very thing that donald trump is complaining in georgia is being done toe him. >> interesting how that works. maya wiley, on more than one topk i want to thank you for being with us. stay here. as i mentioned i'm sitting in for nicolle. we have an additional live edition of "the beat" coming up at 6:00 p.m. eastern with michael cohen. but next, trump claims the politics are still in his favor. history has something else to say about that. favor. history has something else to say about that

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hillary clinton's corruption is on a scale we have never seen before. we must not let her take her criminal scheme into the oval office. i have great respect for the fact that the fbi and the department of justice are now willing to have the courage to right the horrible mistake that they made. >> that was donald trump as a candidate pouncing on a letter

from james comey that he tried to cast as a reopening of the clinton criminal probe. even the basic perception of wrongdoing was something that trump viewed as quite obviously negative for her campaign. we're about seven years out from those comments and we see a very different scenario. it is donald trump who is facing multiple probes, some over older items that are clearly reopened or getting new attention now. and yet we hear something that is kind of hard to believe. trump's lawyers and allies saying all of this will help him. here's marjorie taylor greene. "he will ultimately win. even bigger than he was already going to win because of some of this news." or the aforementioned trump lawyer joe tacopina asserting this here just last week. >> look, to me if they're pursuing this matter it's weaponizing the justice system to keep this guy out of office. donald trump is going to win the election. and if they bring this case i believe this will catapult him

into the white house. i believe it. because this will show how they're weaponizing the justice system. they're i can taking the vote -- >> but joe, that's not relevant-s it? >> he oh, it is. >> to his innocence. >> no, it's not -- he's innocent. and if they bring this case because he's innocent this will catapult him to the white house. let me rephrase that. >> we are back with obama campaign vet shay komanduri and the innocence project's rick wilson. rick, your response. >> i think donald trump has had this immunity from consequence around him in a very long time in our political system. he has been a person who has managed to get away with relentless criming in the course of his career, both in private life and in public life. so a lot of people are naturally skeptical. a lot of people are naturally concerned that we're not going to be able to close this. but i think that show costello just put on in fact shows a lot of nervousness on the trump side of the equation. they won a political victory in the last 24 hours by making

every other republican candidate for president bend the knee and bow to donald trump. but i do think there are still -- the legal process still rolls forward. costello's little show strikes me -- i'm not an attorney. but it strikes me as more performative than substantive in a lot of wa izz and it's an attack on the credibility of a witness in a investigation where there's a large paper trail apparently not just the testimony of michael cohen aalone in this case. i think the political consequences, though, are largely for the republican base going to still reinforce trump. i think they're going to still elevate trump. but i do think, you know, with a broader pictment and possibly another one in georgia that there may be some political radiation in the general election. but i think it strengthens it with the republican base. >> shay, does a candidate being under one or more investigations or being criminally indicted in a process that could result in his jailing, does that help him politically? >> no. i think it's going to be a

disaster for donald trump politically. i think it already is a disaster for donald trump politically. and i really disagree with anyone who says that this is in any way a help to donald trump. it might be sort of a short-term bump for donald trump. but it is a long-term disaster for donald trump. look, first of all, this is an indictment. indictments matter. this will pierce the armor that donald trump has worn to supporters that he is invulnerable, that he is a superman, that he is above the rules. that is very attractive to a lot of his supporters. that's going to go. the second thing is this is not the same as the "access hollywood" tape. in the "access hollywood" tape he was in a fight with hillary clinton a few weeks before an election. he is now in a prolonged primary battledesantis and some other candidates in a republican primary. half of republican voters are described by the pollster as maybe trump.

they say nice things about him. they defend his presidency. but boy, they are open to voting for somebody else. this will only increase that dynamic. so i think he's in a lot of trouble. and i think finally this goes to an issue of hypocrisy on the part of donald trump and republicans. look, this is the party of the elders of "footloose." this is the party that tells women and lgbtq plus women how to behave, that wants to impose religious dogma on non-believers. you know, what about the rules for donald trump? they don't apply to him? i think that's going to be something that's he going to be very hard for him to answer. it's going to be very hard for any republican to answer as well. >> chai, you make some strong points. i have a follow-up for you and then rick can respond. but you're sort of saying something that is not the washington conventional wisdom, which is often wrong. so i think it might take a minute for people to process. but you're making a really deep point. which is that while we hear so much about the timing of this and in the short run republicans of course including -- i just

showed some. mtg. using this as a chance to talk about why trump is their person. in the long run there's a lot more time to cohere around what they would find a superior or maga-style alternative. whereas when stuff dropped in the general it was would you want hillary clinton picking the supreme court that was not aargument that apparently even worked on many evangelicals. so build on or explain further what you mean by short-term bump vs. a lot of time for the party to find something else if he's damaged or facing the very real question of can you govern from a new york prison cell. spoiler. you can't. >> yeah. there's a movie called "the contender" that came out about 20 years ago where sam elliott i believe asked the people to bring up dirt on senator gary oldman. and they came forward and they said well, we have him on this financial stuff, we have this stock.

and he said, stocks? forget about stocks. i don't want to hear about stocks. i want to hear something embarrassing. something personal. something sexual. that is what the stormy daniels case is. it is personal. it is embarrassing. it is humiliating. and it is sexual. and that will be something that will penetrate the culture. it is prurient. this is a tmz story in addition to being an msnbc, cnn, "new york times" story. this is something that kids, teenagers are going to be talking about including the teenage kids of republican voters who then have to decide hey, do i want to elect this man to be in the oval office again? so i think this is going to penetrate deeply and it's going to penetrate very widely and it's going to be something that will add to the overall narrative that donald trump is somebody you do not want to return to the oval office or be the republican nominee in the year 2024. >> obama veteran chai komanduri, very interesting. rick, i'm trying to be fluid here. stick with me because we've got this break, because it's a

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or live chat at calhope.org today. we are back with rick wilson on a very busy news day covering news out of new york where there's heat on donald trump and people testifying to the grand jury. the former president has predicted his own arrest tomorrow, although that's not based on anything. rick and i have been discussing that, the political fallout and

as promised we'll get to the fox news case, but rick, thank you for rolling with us because it's been one of those kind of days and we had a press conference earlier. you were speaking with jake from the obama side about the politics of this and you were going back and forth, and i wanted to let you finish your thought. >> he's just wrong. i like the guy, but he's just wrong on this. he doesn't understand the maga base or the republican base of this party. these people are loyal to trump. even if only 20% of them win with trump he'll still win the primaries. even if it's 15% he'll still win the primaries. the other candidates in the race yesterday showed there is no proposition for them to actually run. they are all saying we'll defend trump even though he's engaged in obvious criminality. they're all saying that they'll defend him and all of the stuff about stormy daniels and trump's affairs, that's been baked in the cake for seven years. every republican voters has processed that and said we're basically okay with a

twice-impeached guy who had an affair with a porn star that cheated on his wife while she had just had a newborn kid. yo they're fine with that. you can find a dead baby in trump's car and he wouldn't care and they would not care. this guy is immune to the moral consequences of his behavior with the republican base. as i was saying, does that expand to softer republicans like the lincoln project is very good at talking to him? probably. it opens up more space. does it give biden an opportunity to talk to conservative independents? yes, it does, but this idea that the republican base will turn on donald trump, he just broke every single republican candidate for president running against him and basically they all said we won't go after an angle where trump would be profoundly vulnerable in a political climate. this guy controls the party top to bottom. anyone else who thinks they have a shot at this better come

prepare because he's to what he does to ron desantis over and over again and tear them limb from limb and he controls the party. >> yeah. i will say, one of the allegories is just that, and not an allegation and that's why we have interesting views and it is very interesting to get the update on the debate. the dominion case has a new filing today and there's a lot of pressure on fox and whether the bubble is breaking. your response? >> i thought the pressure on fox is continuing. i think that the revelations from dominion so far in these filings have shown us that fox is an not thainment channel and a propaganda channel disguised as a news network and that they were profoundly irresponsible especially regarding the things that led up to january 6th and the big lie of trump's re-election. this entire structure that has

been assembled around fox to let the folks go out and trot out the party, and there is going to be a consequence for i still think dominion is very close now to the -- to the finish line even though it's a tough case by every standard, there is a preponderance of evidence now that has hurt fox in two ways with normal people who didn't process how they were, and the maga voters who used to look at fox as gospel who now know that fox holds them in great contempt. regardless of the legal content, fox has sustained damage that will continue on. >> you mentioned that contempt and it is striking because some of the stuff that's hurt the most may not be what wins or loses at trial, but you -- you're a part of an organization that's been effective at communication. you run ads and use social media. sometimes donald trump got mad

enough that he would respond to his better alleged judgment. >> just the other day. >> so how does that stuff in your view as a factitioner appear to reach those folks? >> the thing about the game of small numbers is you have to break them off one at a time. they buy into the lie wholesale and you have to buy them back retail. you have to buy them back one at a time. so the idea of telling these voters they're not telling you the truth, they're lying to you and fox was a security blanket and a safe space where you would here what they wanted to hear and maybe that's not the best way to achieve your goals in the long term. >> it is a matter where you have to peel the layer of the know ons back a number of times and i don't think fox gets back any of the fanatic hard core trump supporters or the folks who were more in the center. the center right folks have been very skeptical for a long time that the machine that fox built is out of control and has produced a republican base that

is wildly out of control and endangering both the future of the party and the country. >> rick, you break it down. more than one topic and a lot of experience on a great news night. thank you for spending time with us. >> yes, sir. i'll see you again. we are part of special coverage. michael cohen will be here and you will see his first on-camera live response to what happened in the courtroom and what happened out of court with a trump ally going right at him. we'll hear from him. i'll have the questions and he'll have the answers and that's "the beat" right after this break. nd that's "the beat" right after this break . caplyta is a once-daily pill that is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and bipolar ii depression. and in clinical trials,

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