♪♪ hi, everyone, it is 4:00 in new york. i'm in for nicolle wallace. the potential indictment of donald trump which would be unprecedented for this country is a story that is playing out in both new york where a grand jury could issue an indictment any day now and in washington where republicans are quickly mounting a political defense of the former president, let's begin with the developments in the case itself at this hour. on monday team trump dispatched a last-minute witness to testify before the grand jury investigating hush money payments made to porn star stormy daniels back in 2016. attorney and former confidant to michael cohen robert costello, now after his testimony he previewed a likely defense for donald trump. that this then attorney michael cohen paid the hush money

payments on his own terms, take a listen to what he told reporters. >> michael cohen told us that he was approached by stormy daniels' lawyer and stormy daniels had negative information that she wanted to put in a lawsuit against trump, so michael cohen decided on his own that's what he told us on his own to see if he could take care of this so he sat with the lawyer for stormy daniels, they negotiated a nondisclosure agreement for $130,000. >> now, here's what michael cohen had to say about that to my colleague ari melber last night. >> it's absolutely not true. i don't know what conversations he's referring to. he's making up so many stories here because he's playing to a party of one. he's doing what everybody does and, listen, i said the same thing to jim jordan and mark meadows and i said, i know the game that you're playing, i know the play that you're playing because i wrote the playbook.

>> that brings us to developments in washington where many in the republican party are as michael cohen puts it playing to a party of one, that one, of course, being the ex-president, a letter from top house republicans incluing jim jordan, the chair of the house judiciary committee and jim comer chair of the house oversight committee accuses alvin bragg, the manhattan d.a. of an unprecedent abuse of authority politically motivated prosecutorial decision echoing donald trump's words, all of this before any charges have been filed or before any evidence has even been revealed by the d.a.'s office. before we even know the peer rites of the case, in a statement last night bragg fired back saying, quote, we will not be intimidated by attempts to undermine the justice process, nor will we let baseless accusations deter us from fairly applying the law. while this office follows the facts, not everyone does but as

"the new york times" report, quote, alvin bragg, the emergency district attorney has insisted he does not pay attention to the politics when decides whether to charge someone with a crime. but mr. bragg stated reluctance to consider the political ramifications of his office's decisions has not quelled the storm brewing around him. he now appears poised to become the first prosecutor to indict a former president. "the new york times" washington here and joyce vance and kim atkins, senior opinion writer from "the boston globe" all msnbc contributors. charlie, i'd like to start with you on this. where do things stand in the investigation as of today? what do you know? >> well, there needs to be one more witness coming before the grand jury at least, that can't happen until tomorrow. underscoring that when trump announced on saturday that this would all happen today and he'd be arrested today, he was just making that up so things remain

in limbo, and we are all circling around and trying to make sense of what is maybe about to happen, still with even at this late hour an imprecise understanding of what alvin bragg's potential theory of the case s we are highly confident he is looking at a bookkeeping fraud charge, falsifying business records for as the primary charge that has to do with how the trump organization wrote in its books when it was reimbursing michael cohen in 2017 it was money for a legal retainer that did not actually exist and to that extent, robert costello saying that cohen is a liar and making things up and was crazy in negotiating this with stormy daniels in 2016 seems a little off point because regardless, the issue seems to be primarily what did the trump organization say in its business records when it gave him the money back? we still don't know what the second charge that mr. bragg is thinking about attaching bookkeeping fraud to and a

second charge is necessary to elevate 24 this to a felony and whether this is novel and strange or mainstream and normal will turn in part on whatever that second charge and what evidence he has to support it. >> joyce, do you have any insight as to what the second charge might be based on what you have seen at least from the public discourse so far and given the history of this particular case, what michael cohen has said publicly and what he believes a second charge could look like? >> so, there are a lot of possibilities and, of course, the reason this second charge is so important is because it converts the business records violation which is a misdemeanor into a felony. if business records are falsified in order to aid another crime or to conceal another crime, then you're talking about a felony violation of law. the possibilities here really are almost limitless under new york law.

there are attach possibilities. there are conspiracy possibilities. there are campaign violations that could be involved and a number of others, the reason i think it's difficult for us to pin down bragg's theory is because we don't know what evidence he obtained in front of the grand jury. he's spoken to a lot of witnesses, kellyanne conway, hope hicks, other people who were involved at the time that the stormy daniels nondisclosure agreement was negotiated and signed. it's very likely that bragg has something in hand that will be unexpected, unanticipated and we'll have to wait to see how those charges play out when he releases his indictment. >> i'm so glad you made that clarification. let me ask as a point of clarification, joyce, is there still a possibility that a grand jury will not return an indictment or that bragg will decide against seeking one from the grand jury?

absolutely, both of those outcomes are possible. juries, it's not inconceivable that a grand jury could look at a proposed indictment and say, we don't believe that this should be returned, that this indictment should move forward, of course, the standard that they're told to apply is a relatively low one. it's probable cause. the grand jury has to believe that there is evidence that establishes probable cause to believe that a crime was committed based on what we publicly know here. it seems very likely that bragg's office can meet that standard. >> kim, i want to ask about this back and forth we played there between michael cohen, robert costello, what is the thinking, you think, behind having costello testify last minute? do you think it might have been effective? this is a team, the trump team that was given the opportunity to come and, i guess, give testimony in front of the grand jury. they declined and then over the weekend, we saw this witness added to the grand jury list.

>> yeah, it says to me that they understand that michael cohen is the linchpin when it comes to witnesses in this case, and they wanted to bring someone in to try to discredit him, joyce is absolutely right. we don't really know what is going on, only the prosecutors who are conducting this know what's going on behind the scenes but the fact that michael cohen at least as of yet has not been brought back in to rebut whatever costello may have said says to me that perhaps whatever evidence he gave might not have been that probative. but we have seen, we don't need to know what's going on behind the scenes. we know from trump himself and those around him they're attacking the credibility of michael cohen saying that he is a felon but it's important to realize that he's a felon based on his own actions in this scheme. he is speaking about what he

knows. he has already been convicted of it and gone to prison so that's very different than saying, hey, he's looking to cut some deal and perhaps is lying for it. he's already paid the punishment. i think that makes him more of a credible witness, not less of one. >> to that point that kimberly raised. here's what michael cohen said last night as to why he wasn't asked to provide a rebuttal. >> the district attorney has the documentation in order to validate every single statement that i've made and to basically dispel anything that bob costello has to say, which is probably, again, why they didn't need me for rebuttal. >> what's your reaction to that? what does that tell you about the d.a.'s probe? >> well, if the d.a. is not pulling -- i agree, that means

that if he's not being called back as a rebuttal witness whatever it is that costello said against him and costello spelled it out pretty plainly in that street interview you played a clip of is irrelevant to the case that bragg is putting together and, again, i would point out that whatever the situation was in 2016 and, you know, did trump tell michael cohen to do this? did he do it on his own and somehow later get reimbursed? doesn't seem directly on point to me if the pain charge is the trump organization falsified its business records in 2017 when it was reimbursing michael cohen and so that situation may, in fact, be besides the point which may be why they didn't bother to bring him back as a rebuttal witness but, again, we're piecing things together with incomplete data from outside of the stage. >> i want to bring into the conversation nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard live in west palm beach, florida. tuesday is here, vaughn.

obviously the former president said he would be arrested today. doesn't look like it's going to happen today is a safe bet. any sense in the trump camp that we are on the verge of something unprecedented, that donald trump could become the first ex-president to be indicted? are they still sticking by his post? >> look, they're not running away, eamon, from the potential indictment. if you go through the social media feeds or text with them, the indictment is front and center and when we expect the former president to go to waco, texas, for his first rally of this 2024 campaign on saturday, you should bet for him to try to take political advantage of this moment here. one ally told me this afternoon, donald trump does not want to be indicted. there is nobody who believes that going and getting arrested and then having a criminal proceeding potentially in the heart of either the republican nomination battle or the general election is advantageous. at the same time if you're

talking about the politics of this in the moment, as this ally tells me, whenever republicans are forced to walk to the drum beat of donald trump, it's donald trump who is leading the marching band and for this moment, that is why you see ron desantis on his heels having to take questions about the merit of these potential charges. you see nikki haley dead silent about this in the last week. mike pence, about a week after that initial story in 2018 broke about the hush money payment to stormy daniels, mike pence as vice president called it baseless allegations. it's hard to walk that back all these years later now that you're a potential presidential candidate against donald trump. today i should note, we've seen about five dozen folks who have come out to protest outside of mar-a-lago here in florida. i was talking to a couple of women and i said what about the numbers? she said, number one, she said that they had facial recognition up in new york city that -- she saw in on the internet which was

scaring off others from potentially going because then they'd be fired from their jobs. here she said there was another trap set up by the government. didn't get into many details but said it was essentially scaring people away but for her she said that she'd risk getting arrested to defend her candidate for president in 2024. it is a complicated conversation when you talk to some of these die-hard base of supporters who see donald trump as much more than their former president, much more than a 2024 presidential candidate but somebody here who is on the cusp of saving the american democracy in the way that they see it. >> is there any surprise how quickly republican -- not the contenders, not the ones that are competing with donald trump for those potential voters, but the actual politicians who are still serving, senator lindsey graham and kevin mccarthy and rand paul, any reason why they have come to the defense of this ex-president who as of right now is a private citizen, not

someone who at least has a bearing on their own political careers? >> reporter: the hardest part for these republicans is the fact that all of these cases are stemming from episodes of the past, of years ago and i made that mention of like mike pence. folks defended donald trump when he was in the white house against these stormy daniels allegations. today there is a hearing in lower manhattan pertaining to letitia james' civil lawsuit against the trump organization. you'll recall in 2016, i was there when ted cruz equated donald trump to being a mobster questioning the way that his family business was run but as soon as donald trump became president, it was republicans who were the backbone of defending him. i was here outside of mar-a-lago just last august when the fbi came and raided here looking for national security records at mar-a-lago and who is it that was at the forefront of defending him? it was the likes of marco rubio, rick scott. it was kevin mccarthy calling this a witch-hunt. it's hard to change your tune

when you have made the case to republican voters that you are the party trying to take down the deep state and what is the issue is that they have led literally millions of americans to believe it. so many of the conversations i had with folks here, they are otherwise good, decent people, but their basic understanding of the reality is not the same one that you and i are having. they believe in this idea of the deep state. they believe that the democracy is under attack by democrats who are trying to use the prosecutorial powers to undermine the maga conservative movement. it is complex, it is difficult and republican party have legitimized donald trump's degradation of it over these years. it's difficult for them in this position now to step away from the man that so many of them defended for so long. >> to vaughn's point, the most bizarre thing for me at least is that it's not based on an actual indictment, it's based off a social media post by the president. the fact that house republicans are slamming this investigation

before the merits of the case are even revealed, before potential charges are even revealed, what does that tell us about the power of trump and his conspiracies about a witch-hunt and the grip it has on republicans? i mean, kevin mccarthy did not have to come out with that statement saying that he is going to use the power of congress to investigate the d.a. >> it's saying that there is either depending on who is acting here a fear of trump himself that they will be on the receiving end of a tirade from him or fear about the electorate. republicans know they have to cobble together an electorate to continue to win elections that includes the most hard-core, the most conspiracy theory believing part of donald trump's base and they don't want to give that up and they will act in a way that i believe actually violates federal principles and separation of power, at least

threaten to do so since they did not issue a subpoena. they will do that for the political gain. we have seen republicans act in their political interest even if it is not in the constitutional or the spirit of the constitution and i think that's what we're seeing happen here. >> joyce, you probably know this better than any one of us, if you take kevin mccarthy's statement, if you look at rand paul saying the d.a. should be in jail, if you take a look at some of the other comments the former president's own comments to protesters, would that reach the threshold of intimidation? how do you think alvin bragg has been handling this? it would seem to me as an outsider that this does feel like they are trying to intimidate him. >> well, they're trying but i doubt that alvin bragg who has a lot of prosecutorial experience under his belt feels particularly intimidated and the reality is that if jim jordan or kevin mccarthy or rand paul want to set prosecute tiff priorities

for the manhattan's d.a.'s office they should move to manhattan and run for office and when they're the district attorney they can decide what cases get indicted. until then it's up for voters in manhattan to decide whether they think bragg is doing a good job. congress has no business and as kim says, this violates federalism principles. congress has no reason to try to engage in oversight of the duly elected district attorney in a state. they have no authority. bragg knows that and i suspect that he will, you know, just let this one roll off his back and watch them make constitutional fools of themselves. >> starting to seem like that's what they're doing. charlie, talk to us about what we can expect in the next few days. there's still one more day of the grand jury tomorrow. walk us through what we can anticipate or expect. >> so one more witness, we think, has to go before the grand jury, the grand jury does meet tomorrow. so that means the -- if bragg

decides to proceed and he certainly has come an awful far way if he doesn't plan to go all the way through, he would ask them then later tomorrow to start deliberating about whether they want to return an indictment. so potentially in the day tomorrow or it could spill into thursday or who knows after that. >> any idea who that witness might be, charlie? sorry. any island who that witness might be and what they might be offering? >> you know, i don't know who it is so i don't want to speculate in a way that might be misleading. in the meantime, we'll consider to have this tremendous amount of interest swirling around the question of whether there's any precedent for this. if it is unprecedented is it because no one has ever done this before? and how this fits into pross skew electoral discretion, selective prosecution is going to be a big topic in the days to come. >> vaughn hillyard, charlie savage, thank you very much. joyce vance, kim atkins, stick

around. we have a lot more to discuss with you. when we come back house speaker kevin mccarthy today insisting that the gop is not even thinking about donald trump, not evenly little bit even as his top deputies rush to his defense while ron desantis is learning he can sit this one out. a big day in the fox/dough men son suit. we could soon get a glimpse of how that went. it comes as fox news faces another lawsuit, this time from a former producer who says she was set up to take the fall in the dominion case. later on we will talk about preparations being made for the possibility that a trump indictment erupts into violence. all that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. don't go anywhere.

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we live in america and there should be equal justice. this was personal money. this was seven years ago, statute of limitation. i think in your heart of hearts you know too you think this is just political. >> that was republican house speaker kevin mccarthy earlier trying to defend and downplay the disgraced ex-president's legal case related to hush money payments made to stormy daniels. what we didn't play was the part where mccarthy also tried to in his words defend equal justice by complaining again about, wait for it, hillary clinton. it comes as the speaker and his caucus were at their annual retreat where three years out of office and possibly just ahead of a widely expected indictment,

the ex-president still dominates the gop and still dominates that party's agenda. joining me now former two-term ohio republican governor john kasich now an miss -- msnbc political analyst and kim atkins stohr. as a republican, what should house republicans be focused on right now? i mean, you have three committee heads all trying to get alvin bragg, the manhattan district attorney, to testify. trump is dominating the conversation at the house gop retreat this week and i want to read you this from "the new york times" today. there isn't a need that everything has to be partisan. mr. mccarthy said that. why had he not invited two prominent florida republicans mr. trump or governor ron desantis to join the group. their issue retreat, he explained. i don't bring many in. if he wanted to highlight the

border and the banking crisis, those plans were overshadowed by his relationship to mr. trump. >> well, look, i used to go to these retreats. i was budget chairman and they were all policy oriented. they were excruciatingly challenging and difficult, in fact, when i got done with the retreat i felt i needed a vacation but i think what's happened here is the republicans really should be focused on the issues they care about. now, they've had -- you've seen joe biden move a little bit. he moved on the crime bill coming out of d.c. he agreed with republicans in the house and the senate and he's also now flirting with the idea of expanding energy exploration in alaska. kind of two priorities that zçuapublicans in the house and e senate had and i don't know if biden is moving that way because republicans have pressured him or he does have a different chief of staff that might be product rating joe biden but getting caught up in donald

trump you're there to talk about issues. that's what they should be talking about but seem to be enthused about, you know, trying to attack the prosecutor. now, let's not try to color all the republicans like that. you don't hear anything out of mitch mcconnell or romney. you don't hear anything out of him. you don't hear anything out of susan collins or john thune. let's not take the extremists and paint the whole party that way because it's simply not that way. you're not hearing anything out of those people, so let's, you know, the house republicans, they've got a lot more extremists frankly than you see in the united states senate and i think it's a mistake what they're trying to do. >> okay, fair enough, i totally respect that about the other voices within the republican party but i guess in terms of the power concentration, isn't it safe to say those that are the chairs of house committees that have the power are the ones that are being critical of the manhattan district attorney. i mean kevin mccarthy is a powerful figure within the republican party and the house.

>> well, he is. who would you consider to be more powerful at the end of the day? who calls the tune? is it mccarthy or is it mitch mcconnell? it's pretty clear how that goes and, look, i'm not making an excuse for them in the house. i think they're off message. awk about your issues. talk about what you want to do. i'll give you a good example there in the business now of the debt ceiling and their budget. okay, you should be focused on those things. to be focused on some prosecutor out of manhattan and why is mccarthy doing it, why are these people doing it because i think he feels like he owes him. i mean i think it's a big mistake. i wouldn't be doing it if i were there. i'd probably leave the retreat and go on vacation early. >> kim, i want you to weigh in on this conversation. give me your thoughts here because, you know, as i said in the earlier segment, kevin mccarthy, these republicans, they didn't wait for an official indictment. they came to the defense of the former president for no clear

reason in my eyes and i'm curious why you think they felt the need to do that. why senator rand paul coming out now? why is house speaker kevin mccarthy doing so now and not waiting till we actually see how this plays out? >> well, they didn't jump into it for a period of time, ayman, if you recall, and the fact that they are all suddenly now coming out and doing it, it feels to me having covered politics for more than 20 years that there were some marching orders issued and they are in lockstep in order to do that. the fact that kevin mccarthy is talking about things like the statute of limitations knowing as a reasonable person who understands how these things work how the statute of limitations get told in new york when someone is, for example, out of the state acting as president and so that does not make this inherently political. he's throwing a lot of stuff to the wall as much as he can to try to stay in the good graces of donald trump and to keep in

line with the trump party line. this is all politic, but the problem is, this is the rule of law. no one is above the law so anybody who is trying to disingenuously as i believe he is throw kind of dirt in the face of this investigation really is doing as much damage to our democratic processes and our government as people who just boldfacely tell lies about it like donald trump does. he knows better. >> you appeared at the democratic national convention in 2020 and said something i think a lot of people thought was profound at the time. you said i'm a lifelong republican but that holes second place to my responsibility to my country. in normal times something like this would probably never happen but these are not normal times. i'm deeply worried about our nation. if we continue this i worry about how we ever will recover. that leads me to my question, how do you feel with trump, ron

desantis likely top gop contenders and this control that trump still has over the party despite a possible indictment. >> well, we have a long way to go. you know, i can tell you back in 2016 when i was a candidate, you know, people had written me off and then i turned around and finished second in new hampshire, you know, clobbered him in ohio, probably would have won michigan if rubio had been out and actually beat donald trump in manhattan, believe it or not. there's a long way to go between now and the election. look, i mean, is it possible that he has a plurality of voters and will do well and win a nomination, possibly. is he going to be president? no way, but one thing, ayman, we should slow down and think about, why are these people supporting donald trump? who are these people? and he got 70 million votes. we have to realize that there's a lot of people in this country who feel as though the

institutions of this country have not served them well and we got to stop trying to look at, you know, these people, why don't we figure out why they do it. mccarthy and those folk, i agree with kim, that's all politics, but for the people that are in east palestine where, you know, he visited or the crowds he got in iowa, what is it? i don't think so much they love donald trump, they love the fact that he is shaking everything up. think in a negative way which is why i went to the democrat convention, in other words, with donald trump, he's a negative populist who says you don't have something because somebody else took it from you. as opposed to, yes, we have problems here, let's dig in and try to fix them. we have to see if a candidate on the republican side can emerge who can provide hope and rather than despair. that's what we got to watch. >> we certainly will be watching for that. former governor john kasich, always a pleasure, thank you so much for your time. kim atkins stohr. appreciate you spending time with us. up next the legal woes keep piling up for fox.

its latest headache, a lawsuit from one of its own employees, we'll tell you about that. don't go anywhere.

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their favor without the need to even go to trial at all as we await fresh new detail on what exactly happened in the courtroom today, expected in the very near future, there's another news story developing. this week a fox news producer who worked with tucker carlson, maria bartiromo and filed new lawsuits against the network insisting she was coerced, intimidated and misinformed as fox lawyers prepped her to testify in that defamation lawsuit. abby grossberg also alleged that there existed a toxic workplace culture of discrimination, that she was isolated overworked, undervalued, denied opportunities for promotion and generally treated significantly worse than her male counterparts, even when necessary men were less qualified than her and that the network retaliated against her after she complained about the unlawful harassment based on her gender and jewish religion. fox news has denied grossberg's claims. let's bring in "the new york

times" political investigative reporter as well as sarah ellison who joins us now, a "washington post" media reporter. great to have you both. nick, before we get to those allegations by grossberg, about fox's workplace culture, tell us a little about what her lawsuit is about, what is it she's accusing fox specifically of doing or fox lawyers specifically of doing? >> well, two different thing, first of all most importantly for the dominion case she is alleging she was coached and pressured to give misleading testimony in her deposition in that case and specifically to downplay the role of senior executives in unleashing the torrent of misinformation and conspiracy theories about dominion and voting fraud more broadly that we saw on the air. pull back for a second. it's basically interest dominion's perspective fox knew what it was doing from the

murdochs on down and what it claims is that fox lawyers tried to get her to essentially back off a claim that one weekend superior for a show we worked with with maria bartiromo told us there won't be any fact-checking if they had on mayor giuliani and different interpretations of that no fact-checking comment but that's one thing they introduced. >> and, nick, the other half of this new fox lawsuit is what it reveals about what grossberg called a toxic workplace culture, let me read some of what she is alleging here and this is from your piece in "the new york times" from earlier today. quote, last year grossberg began working as a senior booking producer at tucker carlson tonight on her first full day according to the lawsuit, she discovered that the show's manhattan workspace was decorated with large pictures of nancy pelosi wearing a plunging swimsuit, the next day justin wells, mr. carlson's top

producer called grossberg into his office to ask whether maria was having a sexual relationship with kevin mccarthy. mr. carlson's staff joked about jews and freely deflowed a vulgar term for women according to the complaint of the later that fall it said before an appearance on the show by tudor dixon, mr. carlson's staff held a mock debate about whether they would prefer to have sex with ms. dixon or he democratic opponent governor gretchen whitmer. after she complained about harassment from two male purchases she was pulled into a meeting with human resources and told she was not performing her duties according to the complaint. so, nick, those are some serious allegations. we wanted to go through them point by point based on your reporting. could fox face separate litigation based on accusations of a toxic workplace culture alone? >> well, she has made a variety of claims and seeking different

kinds of redress. one is in new york in federal court. one is in a delaware in the same court where the dominion case is playing out alleging rampant discrimination and retaliation. if you take the complaint at face value, it's an insult to animal house to compare it to animal house. it's just rampant misogyny and everyday sexism. some weird cross between "mad men" and breitbart or something like that and if it's taken at face value it really shows what fox has claimed is a new culture in the company in the wake of bill o'reilly being canned for sexual and roger ailes being pushed out is not really a new network at all, in fact, the culture hasn't maybe changed that much so i think she's introducing that in a very powerful way here. >> sarah, bring it back to the broader dominion fox case if you could. dominion, obviously this is front and center right now in

fox's world but this is a new development and significant development. how does this new lawsuit affect that litigation and to accuse company lawyers essentially fox lawyers of coercion, of intimidation, misinformation, does that present added difficulty for the network's legal team in the dominion case? >> well, it certainly gives dominion the opportunity to argue that her testimony is suspect and that a lot of the testimony that they have received in depositions is something that the jury would not be able to trust, so it does sort of certainly cloud the picture in terms of the way fox has tried to defend itself and it basically just calls into question all of these depositions that we've been seeing headlines about over the recent weeks whether those were coached in such a way as to not be honest. >> and we are still waiting for

today's summary judgment hearing to conclude, this is often the point in a lawsuit where one side or the other side gets a preview of what a jury trial would look like and then seeks to settle accordingly. is there any indication fox is ready to step back from this fight? are you aware of how perhaps fox's top brass is feeling about how this case is developing so far? some people have expressed surprise that it has even gotten to this point in front of this judge. >> sure. i mean, i think that any company would try to avoid this kind of embarrassment and what -- one of the things i've learned in my reporting about the mood inside fox is that -- or at least what was leading up to this point because fox paid out so many settlements to so many women over the course of, you know, 2016 and '17 and then, you know, even in later years that there was a certain point that fox felt like that people were coming to them like they were a

buffet, that everyone had a complaint and they had to pay. pay these people off and there was a certain idea that they were going to stand up for themselves and this is one such case in which they are standing up for themselves and making a very vigorous defense. it's very difficult to win a defamation case in the united states. the standard is very high. i don't think dominion has wanted to settle this. they want the money, the $1.6 billion that they have asked for in this suit, and they have gotten a measure of satisfaction, because the world is seeing all of what fox was saying internally in the aftermath of the 2020 election, that, in fact, everybody at fox knew or many people at fox knew that dominion was not flipping votes from donald trump to joe biden and it was not owned or was not created with software that was designed to be used by hugo chavez in order to subvert an american election.

but settlement discussions are very specific and i think that they are still pretty far apart on the amount of money that we are talking about, the people i talk to at fox really scoff at the idea that dominion could be asking for $1.6 billion, so we'll have to see after today, you're absolutely right, if the case is a little bit narrowed in terms of what dominion gets to argue in court. they might be a bit more incentivized to come to the table. >> nick, sarah, please stick around. we have a lot more to discuss. up next, more on what we know about what is happening in today's first face-to-face oral arguments between fox and dominion. don't go anywhere.

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but this is a massive election fraud and i'm very concerned it involved not only dominion and its smartmatic software but that the software essentially was used by other election machines also. it's the software that was the problem. even their own manual explains how votes can be wiped away. they can put -- it's like drag and drop trump votes to a separate folder and then delete that folder. it's absolutely brazen how people bought this system and why they bought this system, in fact, every state that bought dominion for sure should have a criminal investigation.

let's bring back our panel. òñpez welcome to the conversati joyce vance. letc mefá get your leu what's your perspective on where qusq't that is being made by dominion. >> this is law school 101. motion.okçó there are no factual issues that a jury needs to decide. juries decide thet( factual isss in a e1case. so they are saying to the e1jud, the g decision are legal issues. those are issues that you thee1

judge can rule on. there's no need for a trial.g(m to see summ1hñ judgment granted in a defamation case, but i'm going to hedge my bet on that and say thatr is extraordinary good for dominion. it's açó plaintiff in a defamatn case is arguing that the defendant was reckless with regards to the falsity of the statements thatw3 they were mak fox knowingly and repetitively made statements that think knew were false u business. the evidence is good. it will be interesting to see hout the judgeñi handles these motions. >> talk to us about the stakes of the case. we haven't seen a case like this before where the big lie and the election fraud claimst( are efft i-ly being litigated in court. i guess it's interesting tot( s what role fox has

is the one spreading the accusation or the lie, it you w3 will, that the machines were invovv!d in this election fraud1 >> fox can be held responsible in that situation. i'll give you a comparison. a caseqxd i workñied on many ye ago, i'm about to give up how old i am, there wast( a lawsuit involve ing a presidential candidate named lyndon laruse who sued overe1fáw3 comments th post reported on. it wasj1/5eiápight up reporting. andçónn■ there was an effort "t washington post" speedometer in that case. soxd the notion is that a platform, we witnessed that platform back in those days that brings those comments xdforward. andjf although technical if all the elements can be proven, they can be held responsible.

so fox's problem reallye1 is th they knew. the internal evidence suggests that they wereokçó knowinglyxd presenting falsehoods. is there -- does fox care about ás this trial. they are relyingfáw3 on the fac thats;n their viewers are not getting information about this lawsuit in other right wing mediaxd outlets. to what extent based on your reporting or what you have been concerned about a possiblei] reputational damage for its viewers and audience.ñiçó >> you're right when you say that their audiencelp isym■ not getting a lot on this lawsuit fromçó fox news or from vd right wing media outlets. fox's audience has stuck by the network. so fab,m]

weakness or any dip in theircñi ratings. so far, the audience is sticking with them.xde1 internally,xde1 they are in ang over these headlines and are sortñi ofi] smashing how much oe internal information inside that company hasq been put out forlp public viewing. very d you read the stories that wew3 wrote last night andxd this morning, all withstanding in the company and the way her colleagues were talking about her, or at least kourgt certainly not the way you'de1 wk functionalok work t(xdenvironmer the angstr&=i■ fox executives ad talent and e1i]producers, but s far, their audience is still sticking with them there's some indication their audience might

as much as they used to, but a lot of people are watching fox notes inially forjf juste1 the information, but thee1q comment. that's where the programs are the most popular.e1e1 tucker carlson, sean hannity, those are some of the highest rated programs on fox. is and peoplejf are going there not for facts,xd but they are going there for theawq very spi commentary those programs serve up. >> a very well said this.jf i'm sure people would use other words to describe the content. but we'll takexd your descripti. let me ask before ilp go somethg about you alluded to, that is the culture ñr after the change in leadership, the ousting of bill o'reilly, the settlementsi]t(5a■ that ttue would change. you're suggesting there's still somer do you anticipate based on your reporting more cases down the

pipeline orr aware of other things that areçó3w■ brewing at in the same way that abbi came forward with her allegations?çó >> no reporting that more lawsuits are eminent, but i do thinkçç■sok thatñi thisçó lawsu severalko■ suits filed sincei] severalko■ suits filed sincei] billfá o'reilly days,koq)e's still problems with the culture. ourñi reporting shows there's ts secretive and scared culture. a culture of demeaning women in some cases. i think it's still there. what i hear from fox people is things have not changed as much as fox often wants to present at the corporate level. web]ertainly see inxd this lawst that onko■xd karlson's show, th% carte blanche. the top-rated show had a culture hike behind the scene.e1 >> thank you all so much. greatly appreciate your analysis on th'kñ and more.

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now here we havelpe1 a potel indictment. that's going to inspire and incite violence. andr and again, with america's leaders having veryñr measured d careful in how we talk about that. and that means not çóe1undermin law enforcement and that means not cheering for an indictmentr and just cheering for the rule of law to prepare. we're going to prepare my team for any violence that's received an increase in threats to me and my family. overxd thec last week or so, i e law enforcement is prepared.

>> hi, it's 5:00 in new york.c with the ex-president bracingxd for a potent0■q historic ffice, concerns about possible outbreaks of violence are prevalent and troubling. manhattan criminal's court ando da's office. and new reporting from cbs finds that there has been a significant iífqpáq in threats andxd violent rhetoric onlinelp1 domestic violent extremists as donald trump claims he will bei indicted. that is according to intelligence sources, who also said they have not identified said they have n credible or dio a person÷ or property, but are continuing to monitor for credible specific threats. now domestic vie is lent extremists have warned that prosecutors from the manhattan district attorney's office would cross a red line if trump is

indicted ande1ñr wo )'itt met w 6th attack on the u.s. capitol, sources said. there have also been postings calling for civile1 war.w3 in the face of these concerns, the precautions put in place are widespread. "the washington post" is reporting in places including new york, atlanta, palm beach, authorities reviewede1 their options to respond toe1ok demonstrations after trump over the weekende1q called for prote to oppose what he called his looming arrests. rhetoric before his supporters stormed the u.s.çó capitol in xd 2021. not to be caught off guard like they were on the day of the insurrection, law enforcement and leadership at the capitollp are making sure they arefá prepe ed. nbc obtained a notice from the sergeant at arms that reads, while law enforcement is not tracking anyq specific credible threats against the capitol or state xdoffices,e1zukere's potel for demonstration activityq the arexd working with law enforcemt partners to so you may observe a

greater presence on capitol hill. but as of right now, the response from trump supporters are muted as reported yesterday, i'm at a pro trump protest put on by thejf new york republican club, not a joke, there are reporters here than trump supporters. this was supposed to be the big one.cc that's where we begin this hour. the formeren counterintelligen editor and nbc newsçóok senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. i'll start with you. give us a situational report. you're there on the grouñ">in new york. bring us up to speed on the latest. ñ rally that ben was at last night and can confirm it was a pretty small turnout, perhaps 15 trump supporters. today the mood out?;■ here is

expected it's widely underspm @% that the grand jury isn't meeting today. we're not anticipating news today,e1 no indictment likew3ly be handed out. a leak could always come, but sort of the big wheels won't be turning again until tomorrow. and donald trump's prediction from the weekend that todayq would be the big day will not be coming true.xd the scene opt the sidewalk behind me is chaotic, but not much morew3 so than you might s on any other sidewalk or busy manhattan street. the coherence of any political messaging that could bexd described as a protester has been limited at xdbest. we have seen plenty of people coming out here to mug for the cameras and to have their moment, but the idea that there was going to be major widespread organizeed protests on behalf donald trump, did not q materialize. it didn't materialize today and it seems, based on my reporting and those of my colleagues including those like ben e1 collins, unlikely to happen in the future. some of that has to do with the

fact after january 6th a lot of the organizing entities for ñc3 protests like that now think everything is axd false tlag or trap where the protesters are going to be secret feds. for the time being, no major protests here. that said, the increased footprint by nypd has been noticeable setting up barricades and having more uniformed officers visiblet( intentionall soxd on the sidewalks to indica they are aware of the possibility of how this could turn, and they are on it. so that's what we havefát( been seeing today. i expect it could be more of the same tomorrow. but really kind of the key tomorrow is going to bee1 in th early afternoon, early evening time period where the grand jury decisions about5a■0l■é@■ this k fateful, historic first of its kind indictment could bejf bein made. >> it you could talk to us about the securityú and how this is all in light of ea trump saying3w■ this is the fin

battle either they win or we wib. if they win, wev country. this is a person who people have tried to diminish his work saying it's rhetoric. as we saw on january 6th, it's way more than rhetoric. it's dangerous. how is law enforcement assessing the wordsñi and the listening w that the former president and t context?w3 >> ii] think it's clearg!auá) taking it very seriously. if you look at all the areas you cited from new york city to mar-a-lago and even washington, d.c., after january 6th, law enforcement is well e1aware of e impact that trump's statementst h5 notable in this case is he is calling for e1e1protests. as we all know, there's nothing wrong with protests. it's parking lot of a vibrant democracy. within the context of donald trump saying that we have ajf history ofq inciting the march n thefá toll and an insurrection. there's a lot of attention being a paid to this.

to garrett's point about people looking at what happened on january 6th, it's important to remember why it's import in and tried to interrupt the vote. the criminal justice system exists to punish the person who violates the law. there'sq ae1 second sdpakt thata deterrent effect. what we're seeing now deterrent effect of a serious law enforcement and a justice frt to hold those people account on january 6e1th, which has a strict the-down effect, which people are hesitant(> go out and try to do somethingxd illeg( >> there was kprapsñ bit of embarrassment among law enforcement on january 6th they didn't take it seriously enough at the time with the president warning or saying at the time will be wild, when he tweeted oute1 that weekend and urged supporters to takew3 our nation

back. howe1 can we rew$ñxdjf into thi is happeningfá now as anyt.) th?r >>fá there are some echoes, there's also a real difference that donald trump is no longer president. the podium or has an entourage to create his own rally. but i have been warned by law enforcement officials and sources to prepare for donald trump to try to make this a media moment for himself torks try to control the narrative and if he were to bep,■ charged possiblyñr wednesday afternoon, they are preparing for him toçó wanu"to have some sort of center &uage m. some sort of news conference or announcement where hee1 decides how this set is of charges will

i think it's also really important to notice the difference from january 6th. while his words are very similar, his ability to control the situation is different. and i couldn'tñió[■ agree moree peter that all sorts of law enforcement agencies aree1e1 al over this like rice. i have receivede1 copies andçóf screen shots of internal documents and e-mailsñi flaggin concerns about specific protests.ñi investigations into specific online threats that have been made that are not yet determined top:■ credible and likely to occur, but have been chilling, nonetheless, in terms of the threats that have been made about killing certain people, claims of alvin bragg needs to die and claims online that could just be bravado that are boei

seriously investigated and checked into this time around. ones that were not checked into as clearly].e1 at allin the wee before january 6th. despite significant warnings to the fbi about what these threatd meant. >> i want >of read to you something from the "washington post" about what we have all s+rju some viewing this following the quite telling. some far right groupsr be ur'$3t caution based opt what happened january 6th. in somexd postings on chats, people were urgingxd others noto protest. in one post, a user called theu situation a trap and referred to january 6th by sayingfát( remem what happened the last time trump called for a protest. he threw everyone under the bus. are you surprised to hear that theylpu

president, perhaps his calls for protests are not resinating asv we? >> i'm not surprised. they were betrayed by the former president. he did throw them under the bus. i guess i'm a little concernedc we'res9

if other indictments roll out. keep in mind, this thing is #1 o and we have the former president and many supporters who are it may not take the form of mass protests, but it doesn't take a lot of peoplew3 for this to translate into violence. and the president and kevin mccarthy and tucker carlson and fox newsq have been busily revising the history 6the1 making it intot(e1 a peacp pat@imts. they are legitimizing çóit, whi again, legitimizes going forwar1 any sort of mass action. so again, this weekñr is obviouy going to belp an inflection poi. but if we get through this week without violence, i don't think we should be complacent. this is going to go on for a long time. it may build particularly when you have someone likesv4 donald trump, who has a vested interest inpfh■ suj)r'glp the r

it doesn't mean he controls t but he's going to throw matches v)ij3áq'e on the fi. we have no idea where that leads. >> how concerned would you be were howe1 concerned aboutw■t(u charily just described, this lone wolf attack. he mentioned there was this after the fbi search this lone wolf and field office in cincinnati that was essentially not attacked by a massive gathering of protesters by oneñ man, a lone +■i]wolf, so to spe. &háhp &hc% that in the future? >> veryu ien couldn't agree with charlie more. i think that if you looks7■u is coming up not only with the potential indictment, the fact of the matter trump is going to waco, texas, for his first campaign event. it happens to be the 30 yeare1w anniversary in the middle of the standoff inwayd,■we1 i]waco.c

theñi symbolic of that event, proud boys stand back and m issers, it does make a lot oñ(w3 sense,t to this small group of extremist who is are prone to violence, it's very symbolic. so iñi couldn'te1 agree%'ree1. i don't think that there's going té be some mass protest in new york, but i'm concerned about açó e1one-perso self-radicalized individual oro ádeciding to get together, get some guns and attack a courthouse, attack a judge, attack a fielde1 office. those are the sorts of things i see coming throughout spling a,ñ summer. trump'sok statements are doing nothing to tamp that down. if anything, the statements from e1 doing nothing but amplifying that sort of potential violence. so i'm concerned. >> carol,lp taking a look at ho

republicans have enabled this over the years, i have to point this out. it's something i want to read to you frome1 your colleaguee1 at post. he writes in part thrks moment vindicates those whoxd long insisted that e1okgop must hold trump accountable forq the insurrection. if only to send a signal to voters republi[vm categorically side with law enforcement. for the proposition that violence and lawlessnesslpe1 hao placei] in our politics, becaus those stances might put them in une cross hairs of maga. republicans shoulde1 get fort( e we are rightñr now. >> i'm a reporter and not an opinion writer atlpe1 "the 7 chington post," but i will say that it has been disheartening to a lotfá of republica sourcesi have spoken to, a lot of what you'd consider mainstream republicans, who said speaking ofe1 can't control the fire, th

are worried about the inability of the party to control this chaos that they have ena abled their colleagues have also helped donald trump stoke.!u■5ad let lose and that some of their colleagues have also helped donald trump stoke. kevin mccarthy worked hardqfá5a all maga arthy worked hardqfá5a republicans, trying to win their votes so he could become the #e. jju for like jim jordanñr and marjorie taylor greene, people who had aided and abetted the insurrection by claiming there was nothing really bad thatfáw3 happened here. it was just a tourist event. and donald trump had been denied the victory.xdp,■ñiçó mainstream republicans areñi

worried about this uncontrollable fire. and where it leads and who it :$qçaeip large.ok kpayñ i wanted to bring you int this had. you wanted to weigh in something peter was just talking about.ñr >> i just think the point a about singlee1 actors, individus ise1 a really important one. ie1 spent thee1 last couple day standing outside of a mail processing fult ink.2 delaware through which someone had been mailing pipe bombs to poll tugss. that was a person who was inspired by donald trump.r there's not açó single suspect that's been named by the fbi or anyone else who is investigating it. so the idea that this isn't necessarily a dangerous moment without mass protests wouldn't be right. all it takes is one person wrú is particularly inflamed byw3 t language and the rhetoric and the seriousness of the moment to create a potentiallyt( dangerou

situation. is and that's something that i know law enforcement is focused on. justw3 as much the idea of mass of people in the streetsñ@nr no. >> such an important point. obviously, that's why weçó relyn your expertise to have that hindsight. talk about how this will manifest within the republican primary and what we have already seen. i go back to how ron desantis perhaps has been reacting over the last couple days, how nikki haley has been reacting. someone like ron desantis is probably sitting there in wonderingñ mccarthy ran to the defense andu offered the full weight of power as the speaker of the house and investigative committees to go after the manhattan da. why ron desantis is thinking he's just slowing his roll for a fewp,■ more days. >> that's an excellent quest!o(. you made this point in the last hour.q look, the facts here when republicans were asked about t

let's waitok to find out 1■t th the prosecutor does. withhold comment until we have some facts. they didn't. they rushed out there.g you'reñr seeing the way in whic the trum( andq ron desantis figt has reallye1 ramped up over the last few days. ron desantis is trying to thread a■ needle by with his snarky comments about trump and/ hush moneye1e1 to a porn star without antagonizing the maga base. can he separate himself from trump's criminal behavior and all of the indictments andlp al of the court dates without alienating the voters you need to win a republican primary? we just don't know. i think the conventional wisdom that donald trump will bei] held in the short rune1 is probably

there will be a little rallying around the flag. the big question is what will this look like at the end of the summer when you have the cumulative wastepo poss&hr&ity legal threats that heñi faces. how long can they continue this, but kevin mccarthy has made it clear he's all in, he's going to use his power ande1 the power o help donald trump obstruct justice to try to intimidate the prosecutors. so they are making a bet that somehow this is good politics. i think long-term,xd it's highl questionable whether this is the way you win in 2024 to put an entire political party behind the disgraced and soon to be indicted former president. >> thank you allg off this hour. when we return as we await the grand jur,zj decis)np onz■ potential indictment against donald trump, there is another

investigationok thate1 poses significant legal peril. the one in fullton county, georgia, and the team is worried about what could come next on that front. those developments, after a quick break. plus also news about thexd defamation trial against donald trump. force between vladimir putin, chinese leader xi jinping, what it means for thexd war in ukrai and the fight against authoritarian5a■ wherever. don't go anywhere.

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&háhp &hc% trouble grows, so does his strategy to fight the investigators. his lawyers have submitted 483 pages to try to squash the release of the special report fulá)q special grand jury, just one of the investigations into the attempts to overturn 4ie 20rt(urjjip r(t&h procollude the usee1 of any evidence derived from theñi gra jury investigation claiming it )uuáional statute and through an illegal and unconstitutional process that violated trump's due proces%gñ rights. trump's attorneys are also pushing toe1 recuse the office from the case and to preventñi prosecutors from pursuing any other matter, i object includin1 constitutional rights in part by publicly commenting on the case. joining usxd now is constitutio1 reporter greg bluestien.e1ok

it's greate1e1 to have you with. team trump, it seems that they are scared just like the trump indictment that has not and may not actually happen. jurors in fullton countyçó have only suggested that they recommended multiple indictments in their final report. do youe1 see this as just anoth aggressive strategy towards the criminal investigations into his conduct? hardball tactics that donald trump's team could use if he's indeed facing criminal charges down the road in georgia. not even close to that point.fá we don't know if they recommended those charges. i don't know whether the district attorney here in but this is basically a prebutt a tall.t( even before an indictment is brought, donald trump's attorneys are already trying to ø)#mi%q took about a year an?ge1+■ involved 75 witne.

they are coming at us before they know whether or not he would face criminal charges here in atlanta. >> let me red you a part of this "washington post" description of what has happened. in the filing, trump'sñi legal team drew an argue that a state law is unconstitutionally vague about the use and scope of a special grand jury and the failures in the statutory fundamental fairness of thew3 proceedings and violate the due process rights of those involved. trump's lawyers az3e the special grand jury involved a constant lack of clarity to the law and inconsistent constitutional protections. for those asked toñr testify an those who are believed to be targets of the investigation. i'm notxd a qawyer, don't want pretend to be one. is this a real legal argument they just read for you? >>çóxdqw3 it's real.

i don't anticipatee1 it's goingo be successful, but i will say trump's georgia lawyers are a cut above husband lawyers and some of theñrw3 other juisdicti. they know this is a loser. they brought this for a couple reasons. one is they are hoping to get a ruling theye1 can use to get th right to appeal to try to delayk things. and i think seconz,-, the goal here was to try to tarnish the entire processfáe1lp and put oue that there's something unfair the grand jury foru#¥ujjrj comments. basically to try to paint a fullton to try to paint a county investigation, which otherwise has been veryxdt( >> i wanted to get your thoughts on this case|■ and theñr argume to come ife1 this does goñrxd f. especially after we learned a

significant development. the grand jury heard another phone call ofq trumpé@■ pressur the sthen speaker to overturn biden's victory. we remember the call to brad. here's the call yesterdayxd aft the hostx■vreplayed that inta mouseok trump call. watch.famous trump call. watch. >> we look at allt( the evidenc. ask weu client didu whatsoever. >> he laid out several s t beenu claim that he wanted t(rathens berger to overturn the election. he went on to say i have to find 12,000 votes. how is that okay?ko■xd what is this explanation for %9 >> so what i'm going to sayok i >> so whhe case oing to sayok i with you or anybody else on tv

or in the media.e1 that'swáá)r'g you deal with in court. >> what do you make of that defense there? >> we're hearing husband attorneys are going to echo their client's argument that it nd he client's argument that it did nothing wrong. we can hear he was clearly pressuring the secretary of state and an investigator from the of&ree1 and another recordig and ;r'p+e evidence of a third recording. grand jurors heard donald trump callq the late house speaker an session of the georgia legislature to potentially t( overturn his election defeat. i think that all builds a narrative. the third recording could be important for prosecutors because it helps build the narrative by what donald trump was doing was not ane1 isolated incident. it was happening throughout the upperk >> reallyq quickly, the fact tht there are three recordings that suggest there's a concert issed

effortu.x■e1 in lpthis.ñxdi]ñie effort in this. >> trumpe1 playersñixdt( cançó apart and try to explain it away. it's much harder to explain away a pattern or behavior. that looks like the conspiracy charges that we know. ■aqe1 please stick around. great to see you. when wet( return,e1 there's bee some developments in the defamation case brought by king and th%,ñp)e not good for trump. what's next for that, after a quick break. what's the big deal? what's the big deal? ♪marching band music♪ ♪marching band music♪ i'll get a cart. get two! scotts daylawn saving is the biggest deal of the year. stock up early and save up to $20 dollars on the best scotts products.

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as we await a flurry of decisions on potential indictments related tofyá the former president and his hush money payments to stormy daniels, donal-t)ump has lost a key legal effort in yet another case involving a past case involving a past er(. )jj in a civil trial. a federal judget( ruled monday that past witnesses and comments will be allowed to be usedlpe1 6 evidence in the civil trial brought bye1 e. jeannee1 carol, allegations trump raped her in a p r(t&háhp &hc% he would allow two women who are $u$exp abuse claims against trump torks testify at the trial as well as allow her lawyers to use thee1

"access hollywood" tape that was released weeks before the presidential election. both carolt(fá and trump arewnk expected to testify at the trial. that is scheduled to start on april 25th. we're back to discuss çóthis. there are two casesxd here bein brought in regardsjfçó tordtrum. the civil case as well as a defamation case filed when trump was president. yesterday lawyers had agreed de in a separate lawsuit could ber tried along with the rape claim, but thee1 judge rejected that proposal saying the+■ defamatio lawsuit could beq tried separately or not at all if5a■ justice department successfully replaces trump as a defendant with the united states. explain for ouru difference between these two decided to proceed with just one in court yeste+lpvñ >> really interesting question

and complicated question.fáu first,t(fáu sexual assam

claimed that he was speaking in the course of his official duties as president, something that many people have criticized. frankly, it's a question of the issue by the justice ñiñidepart, where they have taken a ane1 expansiñive view in the past. the issues ar[@! little different. the issue is whether or not he was being truthful or false in had thist( defamatoryçóe1 state but also the issue of damages are different in that case and so on. it's a slugtly differentjf type1 case. the judge is keeping it separate. >> yí the motion toy1 allow thi evidence is a loss for trump. he sought to forbide1 evidence being entered into trial. how devastating is this for his case?jfw3ñi >> absolutely huge. we talked ine1 the last segment about how differentfá it is whe you have one conversatione1 ve|r a pattern of behavior.krand her

viewers might remember is theón cosby case. initially,xd they had a mistria. they were not able to get a conviction. in p-+g because there was very limited information presented to the jury about past instances, other xdinstances in which cosb did similar behavior. the fact that other women are going to be able to testify about what trumpe1u devastating for the defense 5a■d here. whether v%÷ didn't realize he w■ being recordt(ed, very devastating. it make it is very difficult for the defense, for trump's team to story to the allegations that were made. >> what is trump facing here as this trial1gá5itjuu(áqñf5a■jf what's at stake for himñ. >> a number of sv4ñrthings. it's a significant payment toçó somebody who he not annals

defamed, but also regards an qa■ enemy. but i think tremendous public embarrassment. here's a manxd who claimse1 to someone who respects, and to have a jury ultimately conclude he raped a woman, unbelievable. and frankly, it also creates a an issue forñi hims7■ potential subsequent testimony where potentially his false statement +mt(áqr'g thisok matter could b used to um peach him. >> always a pleasure. thank you so much for your insights. i greatly appreciate it.ñi >> thank you. shifting gears for us, what today's pledgeeozez cooperation between the leaders of russia and china means for the war in democ'when we come back.

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fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service. vladimir putin continues to struggle to make end roads in his war this ukraine, the russian leader got a visit from what is diplomatic coverxl?x0l■ moscow. chinese leader xi jinping joined poouten in his new role as perspective peacemaker as he5a■ discussed withqt( the russian leader a proposal for a possiblr fire with ukraine. the two men spoke for more than fourñr hours and had a state dinner praising as dear friends, friendship that has been forged

in a mutual rivalry with the west and particularly the united states. meanwhile, the fight continues5 on the ground for cain ukrainians. a sign of solidarity as russia continues its attack in eastern ukraine. joining mect( now at the table columnist bobby gauche. it's great to see you. so it seems like this is a ok one-sidedq peace planc from xi i believe he's not even visitini ukraine. he might be calling or will be calling the ukrainian president your understanding of what this chinese play is here?e1 >> it's@ it's a plan that will suit putin because it would freeze everything in place leaving russia this charge of parts of ukraine that russia already has taken over and ite1 would give putin space to /

act together, his forces have fa lal6 battlefield. it's unworkable. the rest of the world is notçó pushing for it. so as you said in your introduction, all putin gets from this trip is a little bit off diplomatic cover. but almost nothing else. there's no commitment ■e's nou.x■ commitmente1 for opy no kmutment for weapons,e1xd fo weapons of war. there's no commitment offá any kind from the chinese.commitmen weapons of war. there's no commitment of any kind from the chinese. we'll reorient towards china. we'll encourage the chinese to 4$=a we'll give theñr chinese first5 dips dibs over any assets that western companies that have left russia we'll give chinese companies first dibs. so he will have a basket of

goodies without having delivered anything beyond just some promied over5a■ that. >> should the americans given thekb u.s. and china, should they be watching this with a little bit of5a■ concern? could vladimir putin be making a sales pitch to china saying look çw#y they are doing to us andu our fight for ukraine, which we believe should bexd ours in our national security, could he be say figure you pursue something similar in taiwan, you can expect the same and we have to stand united. >> the chinese have learned their lessons. they don't nee$■d to hear that. there's not much they want5a■çó there's nothing that putin can offer. his sources were beaten by guys with tr so this visit as it has gone so far was completely predictable.

if the chineseoke1ó[■xd had bro previous on the subject and zing xi jinping said i'm gos[ to give you tanks and jet fighters andko■ missiles, and that would have changed american calculations a little bit. none of that has happened. so this is a bit of a much over muchness, not left to it. >> the international criminal court issued an arrest warrantx fore1 vladimir putin. i think it had a lot of people wondering about the calculation here for the united states. the u.s. has been very clear it believes war crimes have been committed. vladimir putin is a war criminal. but at the same çótime, there's been this slowñi willingness to cooperate, if you will, with the icc. but it seems like there's at least a desire on the u.s. part to help this case move forward. how do you think the u.s. threads that needle? it has its own concerns about what it means for the u.s.

military going topward.4x!r(t&h% >>fá it would suit the u.s. if e icc were to pursue this case, whether or not they can get their hands on putin. symbolism matters. i think we'll see the europeans make the running on this rather than the americans. iw3 think the u.s. position is going to beçó it's okay.e1 go ahead and do this thing. we're going to support you from behind. and as we say, lead from behind. i think that's what we're going to see here. if this moves trd, it will be the europeans that do most of the actual a talking andt( mostf the actual signaling rather than the5a■0l■ u.s. >>t( let me shift gears and get your thoughts on another developing story in europe. there maybe some implications for just the broader xdcoalitio. that's ançó embattled french president dealing with some domestic challenges. protests, heé@■qt(n:ñ,■ survive no confidence, but does this domestic situation in france, these protests against expanding

ori] extending the retirement a make it harder for france to be a vocal participant onu ukraine front?i] the foreign policy is onexu.s÷i whereíj(residents --ll%u our president just as much as the french l0çh=/s portray himself as a world llxfo 8jén■leader, and he can tryiw having behind him ax how he postures himself, but]áw

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?? tuesday with us. beet with ari melber starts right now. >> i arm ari melber. as night falls in new york tonight, donald trump's own prediction that he would be arrested today has been proven wrong. that's our top story as the legal and political world watches to see what comes next. also tonight i'll be join bid also tonight i'll be join bid trump's defense lawyernx(5n?tcq g little bit later on. but right now, we're tracking developments out of new york, where trump's lawyers cautioned that his unusual prediction of his arrest7ó4u 3n■ today ""■ said this as of this weekend+og it was his reactá%-#tu!lic reporting, not based on guidance from law enforcement. that's what hisñt0&÷ lawyers sa and when you fact check or proof things up, you can see that's