happy to have you here, happy monday. there's still more to find out, still more to get to the bottom of. finally we started to get answers. watch this space. good to be with you, i'm katy tur, why did manhattan d.a. alvin bragg call off today's meeting of the grand jury. two sources familiar speaking to wnbc say bragg told jurors to stay home today and to be on stand by for tomorrow. well, the schedule is never publicly confirmed or denied. it has been standard for this grand jury to meet on mondays,

wednesdays, and sometimes thursdays. former michael cohen legal adviser and the last known witness to sit in front of the grand jury says he thinks he knows why. we're going to tell you what he just said in a moment. we'll also ask an expert, someone who has been in the room for these decisions. karen friedman agnivalo joins us to explain all of the potential reasons why bragg may have called off today's session. we're also going to analyze the strength of a possible case. remember, prosecutors don't indict unless they believe they can get a conviction. why this case might be harder than it looks. we also have the reporter by line on the "new york times" piece detailing donald trump's state of mind, and his perp walk fixation. because if that doesn't happen here in new york, a perp walk, there are a number of other investigations which could result in donald trump being looked and finger printed. including the special counsel probe into his handling of

classified documents. which we also have major news on today. joining me from washington, nbc news intelligence and justice correspondence, ken dilanian. he has the breaking news. nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard, outside the d.a.'s office is nbc news correspondent garrett haake, "new york times" political correspondent michael bender. ken, what are you confirmed? >> a source briefed on the matter has told us that a federal judge ruled friday night that the justice department established that donald trump committed crimes through his attorneys such that that judge ruled that the crime fraud exception to attorney/client privilege should be invoked and trump lawyer evan corcoran should be required to testify before the grand jury about conversations with his client,

which is a deeply significant advance in this classified documents case because one of the things at issue has been who caused a document to be given to the justice department that said that a diligent search had been made and all the classified documents had been turned over in june, which wasn't true because in august, the fbi found more than 100 classified documents at mar-a-lago. so the question was, did the lawyers do that on their own? did donald trump tell them to do it? well, now it appears that the justice department has established that there's reason to believe that donald trump committed crimes in that process. now, the trump team has appealed this ruling and it's being litigated in the appeals court. and of course this is all secret, all under seal. we're relying on sources who are seeing these documents, but that's what they're telling us. >> as i understand, it's being appealed and fought over with the doj, and what can you tell us about that. >> it's really unusual, according to this docket that

we're looking at that appears to correspond to the case. the judge required the doj to file by 6:00 a.m. this morning, which is really accelerated not a normal time line. it's a mystery, very unusual. >> let's go back to what's happening in manhattan. the delay from the d.a. for the grand jury, what happened to the time line now? >> we're all about legal mysteries today, katie, it seems: the time line is up in the air. the grand jury could be back as early as tomorrow, as you pointed out. they have been told to be on stand by. this grand jury, has on occasion met on thursdays. it's possible they won't be back in their chairs until monday. look, we have been operating on a presumption based on the manner in which evidence has been presented and the witnesses that we know have come forward, this investigation is close to its conclusion, but close can be relative. remember, the d.a.'s

investigation in fulton county, georgia, so relative imminence in a legal sense versus the way we think about it, may not all be the same. while we wait, there is one person who's got a theory about why this case has been delayed, and that's robert costello, the last witness to sit in front of the grand jury. he believes it's been delayed because of roger costello. he thinks his testimony was credible in undermining michael cohen, that they cannot go forward without reevaluating. he mentioned cohen under mined his credibility with comments he made on the network, conflicting with things he has said or written in other statements that the grand jury or prosecutors might have reviewed, and so right now costello is the only person talking. grand jury proceedings are secret. the d.a.'s office has been quiet about the way they moved forward. we're in a holding pattern, move straight to voting or whether there's perhaps a witness in the

wings that this grand jury would have to hear from before they can make any other decisions. >> that's what i'm curious about. costello said and quote, i think i threw a wrench this their monkey works. let'sp■alk about any potential for more witnesses. are you hearing anything from the president, his team, anybody in that circle about the president or his team wanting more witnesses, asking d.a. alvin bragg to hear from more people in his defense? >> reporter: of course they would love to have more witnesses. that's not how grand jury proceedings work. they had a chance, and that was robert costello who feels like he made a case to the grand jury to question the credibility of michael cohen, how much corroborating evidence is there. michael cohen makes the case that the district attorney has the documentation, and that every statement that he has made has been backed up by corroborating evidence. but as for the trump team, you know, i just asked somebody, an

aide of trump's, what they think of the delay here, and their approach going forward, and just said, by continuing to win. i'm not exactly sure what that means. to give you an idea of what this team is looking at, you should first look at donald trump's social media posts. just in the last few minutes, his latest post was quote ron desanctimonious is running without running. he's doing this to subvert election law, can speaks to him muddying the waters, saying ron desantis is violating campaign finance law by essentially running for president, fundraising around the country without actually filing his proper paperwork with the s.e.c., and that this is purely an effort by democrats because they do not want to face donald trump as the republican nominee in 2024 and that democrats would rather face ron desantis. that is the donald trump argument here, and for where this is heading, there's so many question marks.

we do know one place donald trump is going, and it's not new york city but it is waco, texas, this saturday, which will be his first megarally since launching his 2024 presidential bid. >> we'll see what he says on the stage there. that is where he's at his loosest, potentially most dangerous in terms of his own political future when he goes most off script, and you have written about how independent voters don't like that version of him, and you talk about what this indictment has inspired with him. i want to ask you yw■@t your reporting about donald trump's state of mind. i'm going to read a portion of this "new york times" article. mr. trump has often appeared significantly disconnected from the severity of his potential legal woes, according to people who have spent time with him in recently days. he has been spotted zipping around his palm beach resort and golf court and one evening acted

as dj at a party with his spotify play list, which includes music from "rolling stones" and "phantom of the opera," you write he's fixated on a perp walk. walk us through your reporting. >> i think this is all kind of an open question of whether he is focused enough or serious enough about the legal jeopardies that he's facing in this investigation in particular, and the others you mentioned earlier. what's unquestionable here, though, is that he's trying to move -- he's trying to have his legal fight on a political battlefield, which brings us to this -- the perp walk, this, you know, long time new york city tradition of the perp being walked in front of journalists and news cameras to get pictures for the evening news. trump has kind of gamed the

situation out with several associates of how he would handle that should he smile to the reporters, how would that resonate with such a moment, resonate with the american public. one person left that concern with him thinking that trump thought this would be a fun thing to experience from that point of view. i do think the larger point here, for one is he probably is not going to get purpose blocked if he is arrested. there's more people than just donald trump who would make that decision, including secret service along with authorities and officials at the courthouse at well. what this shows is trump is thinking about this in purely political terms and how is this going to play, you know, with a broader audience. he doesn't want to appearlike he's shrinking away in shame if he's arrested on this, as you

know as well as anyone else his priority is to express competence and strength and this could be a part of how he could do that. which raises bigger questions as you mentioned earlier, if he's going to make this a political issue, the real question for trump as well as republican primary voters this year is how can trump win a november election. how can he win a general election that he's lost in 2020 and, you know, has presided over disappointing results from the republican party over the last three cycles. he's got to win back moderate republicans and indemnities, and does this kind of behavior appeal to them. i think it's a seriously open question for him right now. >> running toward the controversy works for him in 2016. instead of running away from it. i used to say he was like a guy who got a stain on his t-shirt, and instead of trying to clean

the stain off or cover it up, he kept staining his shirt with more mustard, ketchup, pickle juice, whatever, and now it seems to keep the analogy going, now it seems that voters don't like that pattern any longer or haven't in the last three election cycles. are they going to suddenly start liking it again. that's a risky bet to make if you are on the trump team, if you're a member of the gop. >> definitely. i will say if you're on the trump team. look at what he's accomplished, so to speak, in just the last two years. it's a pretty remarkable political resurgence. two years ago we were sitting here. he had just lost. his supporters had just rioted the capitol. very few people thought he would ever run again for any office, let alone be the odds on favorite for the republican party presidential nomination as he is right now, facing four major investigations. >> it goes to show you that that

knot as i called it yet. the knot of donald trump supporters, that base is not going anywhere. if you're going to be anything in the republican field, you've got to find a way to win over that base of support. without it, you can't win a primary. can you win a general election? can you add to the base. that is the question. michael bender, i'm going to long beach it there. joining me now is former chief assistant district attorney at the manhattan d.a.'s office, karen friedman agnifilo, give us the reasons why d.a. alvin bragg called off today's meeting of the grand jury? >> i think there are three possible reasons. i think the least likely reason is they're trying to decide whether or not to ask the grand jury to vote. i think that's not going to happen. i think they are going to ask the grand jury to vote. i think the second and most

likely reason is the fact that michael bender did testify for three hours on monday, and i think they are evaluating -- >> robert costello, sorry! sorry about that. robert costello, what a slip. robert costello testified for three hours on monday, and that would have given potentially something the d.a. wanted to corroborate in that case, in case there's evidence he called into question that they want to put more evidence in there. the third possibility is that they are waiting until it's closer in time of the surrender. given the fact that there are security concerns with this surrender, and perhaps, you know, of course if they indict the case, once they ask them to vote, that information will probably get out fairly quickly

even though it is sealed because of so many people will have to know about it for security reasons, i would think that one of the concerns is let's not have too much time between now and then. you said there was a rally happening. if there's an indictment already, the kind of -- he can whip up a lot of attention saying that he's been persecuted and indicted and all the things he's saying, and look what he did on january 6th, he caused an insurrection of the capitol. if i'm the secret service and d.a.'s office, i want as little time as possible between the time of the indictment and the time of the surrender. if he tells donald trump he will be indicted today, does he have to negotiate with donald trump and the secret service et cetera on when he's going to surrender. can't he just say you got to be here tomorrow at 5:00?

>> itst tricky because he's in florida, and new york law enforcement does not have jurisdiction over him, and so unless governor desantis, and governor hochul make arrangements to extradite him or local law enforcement agree to arrest him and bring him here, you really have to negotiate a surrender time, and it has to be convenient for the court, too, and law enforcement. they have to keep him safe, and they have to keep everybody else safe. so this is a negotiation that's happening with lots of different concerns, but they're not going to give him time forever to show up, right, but a reasonable amount of time, i think, is what would be required here, and given his schedule, given what law enforcement and secret service need to keep everybody safe, there's a date they're thinking of that would make sense. i was alvin bragg, i would think let's not ask them to vote until closer in time. >> are there conversations about

when he could get here if it came to that? >> itch no idea, but i think that it's more likely that law enforcement is negotiating with secret service. that's what i think. and, you know, there's a whole task force of people who will be working together to determine how to keep everybody safe, how to deescalate things. how to keep things under control. it's the fbi, nypd, jtf, secret service, of course, i think would lead the charge and the manhattan d.a. investigators as well. they're all part of a team, and they're going to be discussing logistics to safety to what makes sense. and when to come in. how they're going to bring him in. all of that. >> how strong is this case? >> and i ask that because the underlying crime seems to be a campaign violation. is it a problem that federal

officials, the doj, has not brought a federal case. they have the indictment from michael cohen in 2018 where they say donald trump is individual one, and michael cohen pleaded guilty to campaign finance crimes. why haven't the feds gone after individual 1? he's in the indictment, why would they not do that? >> in 2018, don't forget, he was president of the united states, right. >> i understand that. but he hasn't been president for two years. why not bring it now? >> that's a great question. i think that michael cohen is a tricky witness. you have to corroborate everything he said and says. the manhattan d.a.'s office is working on that case. i think the doj has their cases they're working on. they have arrested and prosecuted almost a thousand people for the insurrection.

they're focusing on lots of things involving donald trump. i think this particular one, i think, is just leaving it to the manhattan d.a.'s office to do. >> karen friedman agnifilo, thank you for being on, we appreciate it. officials say a male student shot two staffers at a local high school. both are hospitalized. one is in stable condition. the other is in critical condition. the student who's under the age of 18 was under a safety plan that requiredeing patted down every day. the shooting apparently took place around the patdown. the superintendent said the student fled but authorities know who he is, and are currently conducting a man hunt for him. we have breaking news from the fed, another rate hike, is this the end? what jerome powell hinted today. and just as florida governor ron desantis starts to drop in the polls, he starts to take drunk on more directly.

what he's saying about his leadership and his character. and speaking of 2024, former congressman lee zeldin, a staunch defender of donald trump now says the best thing for the republican party would be a robust republican field. what exactly does he mean by that. delvin joins me here in studio. we are back in 60 seconds. easi. (moo) mabel says for you, it's more like 5:15. man: mom, really? think he's posting about all that ancient roman coinage? no. he's making real-time money moves with merrill. so no matter what the market's doing, he's ready. and that's... how you collect coins. your money never stops working for you with merrill, a bank of america company. people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. ♪ customize and save. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

the federal reserve just announced another rate hike, moving the target rate up by a quarter of a percentage point, make the new range, 4.275%. jerome powell is trying to thread the needing between fighting inflation and not further rocking the banking system. joining me now is brian cheung, it's a hard needle to thread. is this what we're thinking? >> it seems like the federal

reserve is going to say we're going to watch how data unfolds, and it's basically forecasting one more 25 basis point hike by the end of the year. this was an interesting meeting, prior to the banking issues, the story was inflation is high, make inflation rates higher. the issue is one of the dominos to fall that led to silicon valley bank's collapse was higher interest rates. that was partially behind that. it decided to go with the smallest rate hike he can do, which is a quarter point. and in the press conference. >> by there are multiple meetings between now and the end of the year. it could mean it's going to flatten out. sgr i think the expectation, they will stop the interest rate hikes, and you know, the fed

chairman was saying we're not talking about cutting rates, but depends on how this unfolds. we don't know whether or not inflation is going down. >> could it be supply chain issues. are there other variables here that could organically lower inflation if jerome powell doesn't continue to get involved. >> it's housing. the biggest contributor to inflation is housing, the cost of putting a roof over your head, mortgage or red payments, and the story is the government data it showing it's pressured in terms of high inflation being partly to blame from high housing costs. if you look at high frequency measures of how much we're paying for homes and also for rent, it actually ends up showing you that drops were happening respectively at the end of last year. government data has been low to pick that up.

maybe inflation does come down. it's going to be a bunky road. >> thank you very much for being here. the markets were reacting positively as of ten minutes ago, hopefully they still are. coming up, what will a judge decide in the dominion defamation suit. we got hints in how the judge reacted to fox news arguments during a summary judgment hearing. after months of talk from donald trump, ron desantis lets loot, what he said to not so subtly attack donald trump's character and leadership, after the break. right? uhh...nope. intuit quickbooks helps you manage your payroll taxes, cheers! with 100% accurate tax calculations guaranteed. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv ♪♪ what will you do? will you make something better? create something new?

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to me it's just background noise. that is how florida governor ron desantis feels about the recent slew of social media attacks from donald trump, including a social media post where trump insinuated without providing evidence that desantis might be gay and he might have groomed young women during his time as a high school teacher 20 years ago. but now during an interview with

piers morgan, desantis is hitting back saying at the end of the day as a leader, you really want to look to people like our founding fathers. it's not saying you don't ever make a mistake in your personal life, but i think what type of character are you bringing. joining me now is nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali, and punch bowl news cofounder, and msnbc political contributor, jake sherman. talk to us about what ron desantis is now publicly saying. kind of a big deal, no? >> it's kind of a big deal but you and i have watched how folks on the republican side have tried to take on trump without taking on trump, and certainly that's what every single republican contender in the 2024 field, both official and not officially in yet are trying to figure out how to do. for desantis, it's clear that he's opening up a new line of attacks, if not directly going at trump, at least differentiating with him on

points like his covid response. at one point he was asked for another point of difference between himself and the former president, and he says that he wouldn't have people like anthony fauci in his administration. these aren't necessarily hard charging counter punches, but i think the thing that really caught trump world attention, and the attention of a lot of other republican sources that i have been talking to is the way that desantis spoke, not necessarily in the piers morgan interview but the day before talking about the alvin bragg potential indictment of trump saying it was political, so echoing the republican line on that and also making a dig at the former president saying he, desantis, wouldn't have any idea how hush money to porn stars works. and then they were not happy when he decided to actually respond. so certainly the beginning of what is the number one and the number two person in the

republican field starting to go at each other, but we've got a long way to go here. >> we have a long way to go, and maybe you'll agree with me on this. just from 2015, 2016, watching the various republicans in the field try to figure out how to go after donald trump. desantis feels less flustered than they did at the time. i wonder if that makes a difference. he's also dropping significantly in one of the most recent polls. donald trump is in the 50s, now in the 20s, it used to be much tighter than that. do you have any accounting of why we're seeing that. is it just a oneoff and maybe not something we should read into too deeply yet? >> you listen to some republican lawmakers who have backed trump, allies of his who say this kind of indictment is only going to help him coalesce his base, and other conservative supporters more. okay. right now, a year before people are going to the polls, that's an untested theory. there's also the reality, too, that desantis isn't running for anything yet. it's clear that he's putting the pieces together, and trying to

make this on the fly. at the same time, he's not an official candidate. he's not on the campaign trail every day, pounding a message. but he's getting front runner treatment. in all of these polls, even as he's slipping, he is always polling as the number two. we'll see if that changes come june. i think when it comes to differentiating with trump, all of these people have the benefit of hindsight of '15 and '16. he was still the nominee. i don't know if that helps or hurts them. it's certainly what they know now. >> you do have a little bit of history to educate yourself on, which could be a good thing. jake sherman, we're talking about donald trump, even when you talk about another candidate, we're talking about donald trump, and we're talking about donald trump all the time because donald trump is always the headline maker in the news. right now, it's all about these indictments. i find it notable that when you ask gop senators, most of them, about donald trump, and this indictment, their response is pretty tepid. i want to play a couple of them.

>> what's your level of concern that the former president might get indicted? >> i don't know anything about it other than what you guys report. >> no one should be singled out for special treatment or special mistreatment. >> you've also got a lot of punch bowl from this morning. i would hope they would stick to the agenda they ran on when they got elected to the majority senator cornyn said, the house is going to do what the house is going to do. you have to fall short of getting involved in the legal process. senator thom tillis warning about getting into the substance of the claims against donald trump, this is about the house trying to go after alvin bragg. explain it all to me. >> it's simple. i wouldn't say this, but some might say the political iq on the senate side is higher than the house side. senators realize by and large that trump lost in '20, lost the house in '18, lost the senate in

'22, and no one, in their view, none of them believe that an indictment is good politics for republicans, period. now, i mean, maybe there are alternate opinions about that across the capital. with the capitol hill press corps just returned from this retreat in orlando, florida, not only did they defend trump but house leadership announced an investigation into bragg. that is trump country. in the senate, it's not trump country. these are people with different political considerations who are often times higher performing politicians who want nothing to do with this. we're going to see this over the next 16 months or however long it is until the election that the senate wants nothing to do with them and the house is going to kiss his feet. that's just the reality of where the house republicans are, visa see, the senate. >> jake sherman, ali vitale,

thank you very much. and after two days of hearings in dominion voting systems defamation case against fox news, the judge is saying he will soon decide on how much of the case will be heard by a jury next month, and how much he is ready to rule on right now. joining me is nbc news digital senior political reporter jayne tim. both sides presented arguments, both sides want a summary judgment, obviously different summary judgment. what was the judge's reaction to those arguments? >> didn't read too much into this question. he was skeptical, and saw his question and answer parts when he was talking to fox, his lawyers. there's one part where he specifically looks into the tweet that dominion says is defamatory, if he's conveying a bunch of conspiracy theories. he's talking about hash tags here, why are they saying, you know, pound maga, #americafirst,

are you saying he's a neutral reporter. is this just promoting his show. they said we're not trying to get into that. they're arguing the first amendment as fox has long said protects their conduct for news worthy allegations by news worthy people, and that's why they were going to talk to them. there's skepticism in how he's talking about this, and will definitely be curious to see whether or not he wants to rule on things like whether these things are false, these conspiracy theories that we know to be false, whether he's going to have this trial, discuss those issues. things like the venezuela connection to dominion, all of these different issues, or if he's going to tell the jury, things are false, and we're going to talk about whether they're defamatory. >> it's always hard to ask this question, but do we have an idea of when soon is?

>> i think it's a hard case, in his remarks at the end of court today. this is the thing he's going to have to push quickly. he doesn't want to lose his trial date. started april 13th, so i think you can expect in the next couple of weeks that we may get a ruling. i'm dying to know when. >> we might even get a settlement before then. we will see. jane, thank you very much. boris johnson, the former prime minister of the uk was grilled for hours over those parties held during covid lock down. it's called partygate. what it could do to his congressman lee zeldin, and what the "new york post" calls his thinly veiled shot at donald trump.

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former congressman lee zeldin said heed like to see a robust republican field, he followed that with an ominous warning, a thinly veiled shot at ex-president donald trump. if candidates come up short and don't rally behind the eventual winner and encourage their followers to do the same, then that can have negative consequences that spill into the november '24 election. joining me now is former congressman lee zeldin.

great to have you back. should i call you congressman or lee? >> call me whatever you want. let's talk about the "new york post" interview, what do you think about a robust republican field? >> i think a lot of people are going to get in. it's going to be a spirited primary and a spirited race, and for the average person who's out there in the public, they care about issues like the economy and national security. in the republican party, they'll talk about the border and it's as personal as it gets, and education. if you get into that negative, which is inevitable and it ends up carrying past the primary towards a general election, it can adversely impact your eventual nominee. it's going to be important, and this would apply to either party, when you have that spirited race, you have to come out of the race as united as possible. >> is it a tacit admission that donald trump is not the best candidate for the republican party? >> if he's the nominee, that wouldn't be a problem with him

because he's the nominee. if he's not the nominee, that becomes more of a dynamic of how does he react because his followers are very loyal to him, and if he is saying we absolutely must support acts, his followers must get behind the other person. if he says i'm still running, then many of his followers will follow him. >> he actually won when he did not. >> he has a loyal, i don't know what the number is, but let's say the republican primary field, he might have 35% solidly behind him, give or take. when nikki haley gets into the race, i would say that polls more from a ron desantis than it does a donald trump. as the field gets bigger, i think in a way that somehow plays to his advantage because he has that solid number of people who will be with him mo matter what from today.

>> let me ask you about some of donald trump's behavior, i guess you could call it in the past few days, the social media posts attacking ron desantis. i'll put it on the screen. he insinuated that desantis might have groomed young women, insinuated he might be gay. this is the sort of stuff that voters rejected in 2018, 2020, 2022, i mean, donald trump lost in 2020 and 2018, and 2022, republicans didn't do well certainly in 2018, didn't do as well as he wanted in 2022. it's good for the party to keep having him around. >> so first off, he's clearly the favorite, at this point, of all the polls that are coming out. you referenced a few minutes ago, one of the polls that show him in a clear lead. >> does he gain supporters? he has that support, are there independents and moderates that will say, yes, for sure. >> in a primary it's a proven tactic that works. in 2015, he filleted the field by going hard core, one after another knocking these top

targets out. ron desantis is clearly -- >> the primary is half the battle. >> i think that the general public is more turned off by that. when you go to independents, you want to win over democrats. they want to see us talking about, and this applies to independents whether you're democrat or republican. they want a strong country, they see the banks collapsing, and they want to know what you're going to do about it. there's no question, regardless of whoever the candidate is, is to talk about issues most important to them. we saw it in the race for governor last yore. i was going to democratic groups, communities, we won the asian american vote, the jewish vote, dmin yan vote, why, because when i was showing up, we were talking about the safety on the streets. they want to know what's your solution. >> i think that's fair but can you have that conversation when donald trump is screaming to the

high heavens calling other republicans names or saying the entire government, the entire system is out to get him because of indictment x or indictment y? >> from the legal standpoint he's going to fight, and i understand why he's doing that. >> but he makes it a big issue. >> i think that -- we'll see how things play out in the coming days and weeks but there's a possibility that what's happening inside of new york county, inside of manhattan, might actually end up making him stronger in a way. >> with the base, but does it give him moderates? >> does it get him indemnities? >> i think there are a lot of people who see this as a political investigation. they've seen the department of justice had passed on, the s.e.c. has jurisdiction over federal campaign violations -- >> people think he's unfairly targeted. aren't they going to look for somebody who's not going to be embroiled in so much of this? somebody who won't be in the

middle of this all the time? >> the answer is we don't know yet how it impacts him as far as independents go, and we don't know how it will play out. i think what alvin bragg is doing for a lot of people just not passing a smell test, it's coming across as political to many, not just republican primary voters. >> let me ask you this, is desantis a better candidate for the republican party, all of the same policies as donald trump and more. he's maga on steroids, is he a better candidate for the republican party? >> if he gets in the race, and seems like he's shaping up to become a candidate. it's about what type of campaign he runs. what are the policies he's going to be campaigning on. how is he going to do at the debates, how well would he organize? i would say there's plenty of potential for a governor ron desantis to be an extraordinary republican presidential candidate and maybe even a president. i serve with one in the house, serve together on the foreign affairs committee. i think he's great. with any potential candidate,

fred thompson in 2008. rick perry in 2012. michael bloomberg in 2020. you come into the race, there's high hopes, maybe you're in first place, you debut at a debate, and all of a sudden your campaign flames out. >> yeah. >> it's a whole other level of campaigning at the presidential level. it all depends on you, maybe you were a fantastic candidate at one level, it's how well you rise to that next level, and we have to see once the pressure is on once the flashlight is on you. >> i hope to have you back soon. missed you on the show. >> great to be back. >> thanks again. we will be right back. yes. what about five star dining sets? sorry i didn't have a reservation. you're kelly clarkson. i love your work. thank you. find just what you need at wayfair! even a personal sauna. oh! can we do the wayfair song? yes you can. wayfair! ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ wow. it'd be better if you did it.

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i'm here to say to you, hand on heart, that i did not lie to the house. those statements were made, they were made in good faith. and on the basis of what i honestly knew and believed at the time. >> did he knowingly lie? as you heard, former british prime minister boris johnson said no during his opening statement at a hearing in parliament where lawmakers grilled him on the partygate scandal that ultimately led him to being ousted from 10 downing street. joining me now from london is nbc news correspondent ali arouzi. folks are saying this is going to have a big impact on his political future. some would also question what exactly is boris johnson's

political future. but explain to me what's going down? >> reporter: look, he was grilled by the parliament, by members of that committee, as you showed in your video. there was a lot of drama and political theater. he said hand on heart, i haven't lied. he admitted when he spoke to the commons during the pandemic, he strayed from the truth that no covid rules were broken, and everything was above board. he said it wasn't intentional and that was information given to him by staff members. other senior civil servants say that information simply wasn't given to boris johnson, that he wasn't told that all the rules weren't being observed and they really grilled him on a lot of evidence. they brought up video evidence and photographs of gatherings and parties at 10 downing street where there was no social distancing, no efforts were made to go by the rules that the

government had set themselves, and he would defend himself quite robustly, saying it wasn't sometimes possible, that downing street is an 18th century townhouse that's cramped and they had to do what they had to do under extraordinary circumstances. >> all right. ali arouzi, we're going to keep on watching this. ally, thank you very much. and that right there is going to do it for me. deadline white house is next. (vo) get internet that keeps your business ready for anything. from verizon.

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hi, everyone, it is 4:00 in new york, the criminal probes with donald trump's conduct, before, during and after he was president of the united states. let's start with the news in the manhattan d.a.'s probe in hush money payments made to adult film star