your brother has landed in the dark lands. they're under bowser's control. hang on, luigi. yes! fire! only in theaters april 5th. rated pg. hey there, everybody. it is 4:00 in new york. i'm ayman nicolle wallace. sitting where we are today on the precipice of a generational moment in american history, one could be excused for thinking but this afternoon's developments in donald trump's

hushsá e it perfectly clear. the manhattan d.a. alvin bragg is following his own e1timeline not that uw#the american public, elected officials or even the twice-impeached, disgraced former president. the manhattan grand jury did meet again today at noon, unlike yesterday. but reporting indicates they met about a different case. whilew3 the situation is extraordinarily fluid and a vote on a trump indictment still seems imminent, it appears likely that monday will be the next time the grand jury meets on the matter of hour money paid to an adult film actress. the more we wait, though, the more the pressure builds.ñr the more donald trump disseminaits new violent rhetoric whilee1 he appeared to1 spending hise1 day golfing alongside actor jon voight, his truth social feed on the other hand illustrated a full-on meltdown. never afraid of a little all caps dishonesty, trump today called d.a. bragg a, quote,e1 ys)os-backed animal doing the work of anarchists and the devil

adding "this is the gestapo, russia, china but worse." such over-the-top hyperbole eivght be a punchline if it track )jt violent discontent among his supporters, which is why whate1 he said nex should concern every single one of us. because trump later insisted, not just bragged, but all of th3 handling the four major trump-focused investigations, people like jack smith, letitia also with us, harry litman,t( former deputy aassistant attorney general and former u.s. attorney. plus frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for

counterintelligence. and with me here at the table "new york times" editorial board member mara gay. suzanne, i'd like to start with you if i can. explain to us what wejeá■ know t what happened behind closed doors today in that lowerjm manhattan courthouse because trump and right-wing media as you can expect, they have framed the wait as a sign of chaos. somehow that this case will not go forward. are there any grounds to that speculation, or is it wishful thinking on their part? >> i don'tq think we really kno anything. i mean, they said that they're looking at a matter that's unrelated to the hush money payment. i guess that means there's another matter, another criminal matter in new york. there's other crime going on in new york and they're hearing another matter is sort of what i read into it. but we really don't know what the delay is. you know, whye,kñ it was delaye yesterday. they potentially were going to -- it could be anything from somebody got the flu or had covid or anything r"áey we just don't -- we don't know

what happened yesterday andeó.ss not unusual for -- like yesterday for grand juries to put afá pause and for them !eñ r other matters. there's a lot going on politically. but it may have nothing to do with why the grand jury, you know, is hearing another matter today andq didn't sit yesterday. >> let me tap into your expertise about the long relationship between alvin bragg and donald trump.e1 susanne, you know so much about the history between the two of them. can youñi fill in some of the blanks for us? how far back do these two men go in their entanglement? >> well, it's interesting. a lot of it isn't sort of e1 that'll well known unless you're really a student of this. you see alvin bragg and he's out there and he's the manhattan d.a. but these two men go back quite a way. alvin bragg was a senior attorney in the new york attorney general's officee1 for some time and he actually oversaw the case that was brought againstq the trump foundation. the trump foundation in that instance was accused of shocking

pattern of illegality. and it was accused of juste1 beg a personal checkbook for donald trump. it was eventually as part of a civil matter in this case, it was forced to dissolve and to pay $2 million out to charities. ande1 separately, alvinçó bragg ran -- he's a politician andxd ran for public office that he has now.3w■ and when he was running he ran and mentioned many times that a key thing would be bringing, you know, justice to donald trump if it was deserved. but he definitely ran on that sort of platform. he even said as a point of pride at times, he mentioned even once that new york attorney geneu>&, he was in the office when the new york attorney general brought more than 100 cases against thei] trump administration. and it's everything from migrants at the border to the m5)frs travel ban. but you know, he's been very clear in saying ie1 know donald trump but i know what he's capable of and that he wanted to bring him to justice.

this goes deep for these two. ande1 alvin bragg is no strange to donald trump and vice versa. >> harry, let's move ae1 little bit to legal strategy, perhaps a little speculation today. your friend andrew weissmanxdrw% posed what i thought was a very interesting question. it was a little bit of a curveball question but he posed the question is there any chance that alvin bragg is contemplating charging trump of course weisselberg was in that case, the letitia james civiln&o■ suit. and i think the aim here would be to flip weisselbk2■ finallyç against donald trump. explain to us how would that ■ically. >> it isr it was a curveball question that bragg posed to all of us. th weisselberg in the grand jury if he's agreed to cooperate and you make him tell everything and ev

preparatory to charging him. man, that would be a crazy last-minute thing.e1 and to andrew's credit he was just saying pure e1speculation. i think here's the thing to really stress,e1 ayman. there'sq so much concrete indication before this)¦ñ that y are going forward that the surmise now that maybe somethin1 is really wrong there or they're trying to salvage it i don't think holds up without a lot more evidence. it would be like taking a train going 200 miles an hour and just jamming it into reverse alló[■ u it'szv■ a good parlor game andrs playing. i'm ÷ but i thinkw3 the main thing ise have no concrete indication now that it's fundamentally -- the direction has fundamentally changed and there's reasonv doubt as trump hopes that bragg is going forward.

>> on the topic of dangerous rhetoric today, i want to show you what right-wing airwaves were light in the aftermath of the -- and i insisted the lawful mar-a-lago search back in august. watch this. >> the way the travel government has gone it's like what we thought about the çógestapo, people like that, that they just go after people. >> what a middle finger to e1 america, by the way. you raid your opponent's house and then fly to the beach with your crooked son? >> we're not a banana republic. we're into tine1 pot dictator third world stuff. >> there is no justification for sending 30 frigging fbi agents to the former president's compound in mar-a(tz in early morning and conductinge1 themselves this way or in any other cases in which they've done exactly the samexd thing. fb. this is the worst attack on this republic in modern okhistory.e1 period. >> no, it wasn't. that was a lawful search that was conducted after a judge issued a warrant. and frank, days after those remarks on those airwaves you

had an armed man try to breach an fbi field officei] in cincinnati. a subsequent scrub of his socia( mediaxd revealedok a trail of threats in the aftermath of that search. my question too is is law enforcement aware that trump may be igniting a similar flame in the leadup to this indictment over the past couple of days? >> i certainly think and there's indications they are with reporting of the security planning going on just to handle the security concerns around thise1 potentiale1 indictment.xd so look, law enforcement agencies have learned a lesson regarding acting on available intelligence with regard to>c january 6th. and i think they're going to be doing that, i believe they're engaged in active intelligence collection right now. the problem is the longer this goes on and on -- and by the way, we're all here talking about this all week because donald trump said he'd bee1 indicted tuesday and there was absolutely no basis in fact.ñr but it's given him an

opportunity to prepare the battlefield as they say in intelligence work, meaning he can see how many people he can turn out to protest or not, which gop leaders will back him racial, anti-semitic,lp jfsatana danger to the country. he alsoé@■ posted on truth soci ayman, a photograph of himself holding a baseball bat about to swing it right next to an image of alvin bragg, the d.a. andxd furthermore, he's mocked recently as today this call by some gop members to be peaceful and protest peacefully. he's against that. he's put that out there. we are headedok toward a potentl

flashpoint. combine that with the rally scheduled for thissv4 weekend i waco. by the way, a place near where the deadly cult standoff with federal lawt( enforcement ended and as many or at least as many as 75 people dying, and we are validly concerned about where this is headed in terms of violence. >> you2bping up a very but let me ask mara about something frank mentioned, which is the language that was used in trump's post. because i think the language here matters. calling alvin bragge1e1fá a sor e1soros funded animal. he's gone after thefá otherw3 prosecutors, fani willis, letitia james, two black women, as well as jack smith. i can't hep help but see the racial -- i don't even want to use the wordok ñrundertones. just the racist language in his messaging. >> it's not only racist but it's racism with a purpose of çó

delegitimizing these duly elected prosecutors. in the case ofe1 fani willis of course and d.a. alvin bragg who have been elected by the people they serve to bringokçó casese1 appropriate, as they see fit. and ixd think it's a distractio and this is a really old trick in american politics. donald trump didn't start it but he sure hasñi capitalized on it. which is to use racism andg anti-semitismi] to divide peopl to distract and to delegitimize your democratic opponents. that's really what we're seeing here. and i think all of this noise, and it is noise, it's dangerous noise but it's noise, is not only meant to distract and delegitimize but i think is a

we need to allow things to'c■ p out just as it would for any other citizen in the united >> yes. >> let's not forget -- >> th/3z%m■ a very similar devie that he did on january 6th, which is to say, well, look at this crowd behind me. i come with people who are capable of violence.

supporting me and backing me. it's almost an implicit e1threa. so of coursee1 that includes th jurors in downtown manhattan who really didn't have a choice as to how they were going to do their civic duty. they're just trying to do their civic duty. this kind of intimidation, itw3 cannot be answered by bowing to it. so i thinki] the entire countrys unfortunately being held hostag% at the moment to thati] intimidation and we can't have th[ >> frank, to mara's point given everything you have seen, you're certainly the law enforcement expert here in this conversation. have we reached the threshold of intimidation with what trump has done, with the way speaker mccarthy has gone after alvin bragg, saying they want to investigate him,5a■ this reacti from republicans, people like rand paul saying thatu

>>q it hasn't reached a crime threshold yet. the statutory elements of, say, witness intimidation, coercion, is not there yet. it's an interesting theory of conspiracy, though, with regard to the various house committees and subcommittees that want to interfere with the local prosecution and whether any collusion has occurred between trump's team and sitting members of congress. that would be interesting to look into. but we're not there yet. and alvin bragg of course has publicly pushed back. even today his peoplefá put out letter in response to congress saying hey, you have no jurisdiction overe1 us, we'll s down andxd talk with you about federal money to the çód.a.'s office but you're not going to change our mind on anything. dtqi rrrjju(jjt to intimidation about the security threat picture, and the longer we go here the more pit&e cant( get riled up.q i would actually fall on the side of this reporting about speculation that some of this

delay in the grand jury proceeding is potentially meaning they want to tighten the window ase1 closely between an indictment coming down and trump >> harry, let me go backw3 to t broader case if i can. a majority vote is required for the grandçó jury to indict dona trump. they'll be voting on a complex untested casee1 involving a federal campaign where the law,4 some would argue is not exactly clear-cut. but this is from the "new york times." let me read in part of what they write. "in new york falsifying business records can be a crime and mr. bragg's office ise1 likely to build the case around that charge, according to people with knowledge of the matter and outsideçó legal experts. since mr. bragg took office in ó 2022, prosecutors have filed q17 felony counts of that charge against 29 individualsret companiesçóó[■ according to dat] by the office." they clearly have experience

with this charge. but how is the trump case different if you think it is s÷'ifferent? >> it may bew3 different in one way, but it's a really important point, just to underscore what you just said, ayman, because it what we're all waiting for, however, is in order to elevate it from ajf misdemeanor to5a■ a felony it has to befá done in furtherance of another crime and depending on what crimeht■ bragg chooses you're right. it could be more or less controversial or at least lpe1 unprecedented. so i certainly am going to tear right into page 3 or 4, whatever it is, to find out what that other crime is. if it is as people havee1 repord

and broadly hase1 to do with campaign finance violations, there are some reasons to worry or at least anticipate a lot of pretrial litigation. but it's notçó clear that's wha it will be. my friend andrew weissman who you were just mentioning along with ryan goodman had a really good article in the "times" with another suggestion two days ago. that's goingçó to be the major legale1 point.xd what has bragg chosen to combine this initial simple charge with to try to make a package that is a felony under new york law? >> sue, looking ahead, what can we expect on monday when the grand jury is next expected to convene? >> well, ijf just want to kind take a little bit off of that and what else could be in this.1 >> sure. >> just the other potential thing that it could be, it could be the campaign finance and it could be an and &or. there could be a state tax e1 violation. if they booked this as legal fees and then found a way to use it as a business expense on their taxes, we could have a tax íion in there as well.

once -- i think we're all just going to be digging through this when it is, if it comes, to see what's there. but there could be more than one thing or one thing or several. and bragg's playing this obviously very close to the vest. but on monday we're going to see, there could be another delay or they could come back, the grand jury could come back, there could be another witness or there could be a vote and that may goi] quickly■3 or it m not. but i think monday isg mara, please stick around. when we come back jim jordan's fishing expedition continues. the chairçó of the so-called weaponization committee asking for evidence from a former prosecutor. we're going to talk to someone who literally wrote the book on donald trump's potentialñr culpability. plus ron desantis trying to step into the national5a■ spotlight m his comfortable perch in florida realizing it might not be as

easy as he thought. we're going to tell you about his most recent misstep. and later in the show special counsel jack smith's team in court today squaring off with former vice president mike pence about his potential testimony in the trump january 6th investigation. where that's going and a whole where that's going and a whole lot more when "deadline: white moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day.

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saving you up to 75% a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities™. mara, are you sure you don't want -to go bowling with us tonight? -yeah. no. there's my little marzipan! [ laughs ] oh, my daughter gives the best hugs! we're just passing through on our way to the jazz jamboree. [ imitates trumpet playing ] and we wanted to thank america's number-one motorcycle insurer

-for saving us money. -thank you. [ laughs ] mara, your parents are -- exactly like me? i know, right? well, cherish your friends and loved ones. let's roll, daddio! let's boogie-woogie! test. test.ok the fact that there have yet to be any charges brought against the ex-president. house republicans are expanding house reheir cans are expanding majority to defend trump and to

undermine the manhattan d.a. already this week the republican chairs of the most powerful house committees called on d.a. alvin bragg to testify, a request that bragg today said, quote, only came after donald trump created a false expectation that he would beq arrested the next day. and his lawyers reportedlq?7 urd you to intervene. neithere1 fact is a legitimate basis for congressional inquiry. meanwhile, house judiciary chair jim jordane1 sent newe1 letters jim jordane1 sent newe1 letters ovtju seeking testimony and documents from two prosecutors who resigned from okñibragg's oe last year including mark pomerantz, who wrote in his %=9 he was a former lawyer for the democrats during trump's firs!■ impeachment, now is ar the oversight committee. he'll go ahead -- excuse me,fá head to head against some of these high-profile gop fire brands. maraw3 gay is back with us heren the studio. congressman, let mestp)t with

you. even republicans in the senate are critical of this effort by of john cornyn telling access he prefers they, quote, work on thi agenda they ran onk whatxd do you make of what is happening on the house republican side with jim jordan and hisçó colleagues going afte alvin bragg so aggressively before an indictment has even been rendered? >> well,q it's clearly anr to defend donald trump and use and abuse the power of congress in order to intervene, interfere, and potentially obstruct an ongoing criminal investigation and potential prosecution. it's far outside the bounds of anything that congress has jurisdiction over, and i thought that district attorney bragg's letter today really made that so clear and plain as to why it is so off base for these three sáá an accusatory, inflammatory and

baseless letter to %■ñr distric attorney, a state prosecutor in a different state, new york, who is enforcing new york law. congress has no place in lpthis. but what is clear is that they are doing the bidding of donald trump, as they have been doing for the last six years. >> i wanted to read in part -- this is something jim jordanñi said in his letter to mark pomerantz today, that pomerantz's efforts shamed bragg trump$i what do you think jim jordan is expected to get here? it's not like pomerantz quit because hexd thought trump was innocent. you obviously have seen a lot of the stuff against donald tru(>y not particularlyq in this case but just generally through the first impeachment. i'm curious to get your thoughts i hope mark pomerantz comes in and testifies in the subcommittee on the so-called weaponization of the federal government.

it would not be testimony that jim jordan would like. it also demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what has transpired in the district attorney's office. that was a very different case that my$÷■ pomerantz recommende to alvin bragg that mr. bragg prosecute. and mr. bragg rejected that recommendation and decided not to prosecute donald trump and at the time many trump defenders lauded mr. bragg as alúqp'q of virtue and doing the right thing. now on a very different case that took a little more time to develop mr.e1ñi bragg appears r to go forward and charging him. and all of a sudden those people whoq lauded mr. bragg are attacking him. you can't have it both ways, either he's a principled prosecutor who is following the facts and the law as they said last year when he saide1 no to mark pomerantz, or you are not as they're saying now. but you can't do it -- you can't pick and choose what you want. and mark pomerantz believes donald trump committed a crime.

so if they want to bring him in and have him talk all about the criminal activityq donald trump has undertaken that wasn't charged, we're happy to have that conversation. >> speaking of that,xdñr q■ me actually play for you something that mark pomerantz told nicolle on thise1 program last month abt guilt and evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. watch. >> we thought all of those thingsqxd pointed in the direct of prosecution. but there's açó real debate abo what are the standards to apply. i feel very strongly, as i wrote in the book, that it has to be the same standards. the decisions whether to bring criminal charges is notñr a political decision. it's a law enforcement decision. and it needs to be made by the same criteria that prosecutors use ayiq we go about our busine day to day in case after case. >> where do you think this case ist( headed, congressman? >> well, i think what's really important to underscore here is that mr. braggok by all account isó[■ -- i know okhim.

he's a very ethical, very upstanding, very respected prosecutor. and he may have differed with mark pomerantz a year ago about whether to bring that case or not and he may now bring this case. but regardless of what his decision is, i can certain and the viewers should be certain that he is going to do it without fear or favor, that he is not goingfá to allow politic to enter into this. and the accusations to the contrarylp are just simply fals and demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of how mr. bragg views this office and how q=im■ generally approac their job. >> so mara, there's been this debate among some democrats that perhaps alvin bragg's calculation or potentialt( indictment may backfire politically. we just heard, and we've been very clear about this, that should not be a factor in what alvin bragg does or the distric( attorney's office does, as mark pomerantz made clear there. but it is certainly something that we don't live in a vacuum and this could have political what do you make of that debate

and should that bew3 a]/> ás calculation for -&ó■ bragg. i think that's clear. >> right. >> i think -- you know, the reality is politics is an art, not ajf science. and so while it's very fair to speculate about the potential downside for democrats of, let's say, a prosecutionu those are fair political questions. but at the same time we don't actually, as kind of political speculators, we actuallyñi don' know the answer to how this will play çóout. we have no idea what's going to happen. and that's all the more reason i think to allow the criminal justice system, that process to know, no one is above the law here. not even a president or former president of the united states.d and that's a part of our political process too that's at

play. that's not just a criminal ñi matter. we're talking about democracy at work. >> congressman, a finl question to you, and it's something that my colleague rachel maddowxd ha pointed out repeatedly, is we've had a long unfortunate history of politicians who have been in this country. they happen without fanfare. they go to jail, they pay their punishment, sometimes they're acquitted. this is different with donald trump not ju former pres because of the rhetoric, the intimidation, the reaction from fellow republicans. and i just wanted to get your thoughtse1 on why this particul politician and the case surrounding him is reallyt( pushing our system to the brink. >> well, i think we have to emphasize it'sr there are three other ongoing criminal investigations into him. we have seen from donald trump, and i saw itok up close and personal firsthand in the first impeachment, is he does not believe that thee1 law applies to him. he thinks thatxdt( he is outsid

the e1law. and hwill do anything he can to undermine the rule ofe1 law. what is reallyw3 shameful is to see so manyfá of my republican 5 path of e1undermining our democratic values, our democratice1 foundations and ou democratice1 institutions in fealty to one man and not to the rule of law. we are a government offá laws, ó men, as mara just alluded to. and it is essential that we let this play out in the court of law where we have a verye1 robu system that can deal with any kind of criminal charge against anyone including a former president. that's the appropriate place for this to play out. çp(otñi in the halls of congres zez social media or television. let donald trump defend himself >> if it does. congressman daniel jfgoldman. sir, always a pleasure. thank you so much for your time i rñthanks, t(ayman. >> up next, where does florida governor ron desantis stand in the war on ukraine? comments he made yesterday are

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muá he's even announcedlp that he i running for president. so he is trying a new tactic here. be whoever, dofá whateveru

it also put desantis'se1 views moree1 in line with those of former president donald trump." let's bring into the conversation charlie sykes, editor-in-chief of the bulwark and msnbc contributor. mara gay is still with us. charlie, your thoughts on this. talk to us about how desantis is working overtime to please everyone, please no one. here's how the "times" write-up to tucker carlson's reaction to desantis walking back those comments. carlson attacked what he said were people who give in to the news media, asserting that they

are forced to repeat whatever childish slogan theye1 come up with this week. in a mocking voice carlson said, "vladimir putin is a war criminal." and if you've lost tuckere1 carlson you're in trouble. >> well, this is not a good loou for ron desantis. look, i think it's good that he's willing tolp say that vladimir putin is a war criminal because he is a /s criminal. it's good he's distancing himself a little bit from the trump surrender caucus. but there's no question about it, this was hisq first big public policy announcement -- foreign policy announcement. and you know, whether or not it's a flip-flop, it's clearly ( walkback. it's a skim-back. and when you're explaining like this you are losing. so it does feed some ofxd the doubts that perhapslp ron desans iç@lnot as ready for prime time as we thought. and i think what makes it worse is not just that he's got tucker carlson on his case butw3 also

that first statement last week that was so roundly panned was a written statement. he had time to think about it. he had timee1 to write it and t revise it and edit it. >> i had people look at iá3 and say hey, this may not be the best way tor >> exactly. exactly. so he looks a little bit like a wingding, which is not the brand he wants because he wants to be the big champion, the fighter, the tough guy from florida. and last week he did not look like that. k"t)on desantis is not official in thefá race but the polling h him down by donald trump by some 20-odd e1points. not a good place to be if you're thinking we have it up there on the screen. what do you make of this? what does it say about ron desantis's strengths, his weaknesses, that with everything

and then you have somebody who in this case isó[■ --q still ap■ the xdunderdog. and even though he's had success in florida we don't know what's going to happen, how the rest of the country, how other republicans are going to respond to him as he takes that on the road.xm is he going to kind ofe1 have t same effect on people and be able to draw large rallies around the country? we don't know. he's been successful in florida.

but thise1 dynamic is not unhea of in american politics. it's actuallyxd strangely it's actuallyxd strangely comforting given alle1 we've been --e1 >> exactly. charlie, lete1 me get your thoughts on something that caught my attention today. there was this new reporting in florida that legislators there, republicans are advancing a bill that wouldlp effectively shield details about governor desantis's travel schedule and #nnt effectively from the public. and it's been a growing concern among journalists and news organizations who have been trying for months e1unsuccessfuq to find out whether taxpayers, florida taxpayers have been on the hook for the governor's political travel out of state and for his security, something j reimbursed to the sta. in a nutshell this bill would protect desantis from answering how and where he's traveling on taxpayer t(money. what do you think this tells us about desantis and his operation at this point?

what it tells me, he's willing to use the power of the stateñio cover up his own behavior. and i'm just not sure that shielding himself, opting for secrecy, shutting the public, the taxpayers out, is going to play as well as some of his other anti-media initiatives have. and i would, by the way, like to agree with mara çóvery, very mu, but i am not strangely comforted by what is happening here. i am having ptsdok flashbacks t 2016 as i watch donald trump move aahead because our politics are not normal anymore. they have -- you know, the republican party has gone down this weird rabbit hole and apparently ite1 just cannot qui donald trump and i just don't see the will on the part of other republicans to do what needs to be donee1 to take on donald trump. so i think that we need to gird -- that even though it is early we have seen this movie

>> i guess i would just -- i certainly agree that our politics is --ñi >> no longer normal. >> no longer normal. i just -- i think it'su■%5a=iq9■ that we don't see many meaningful at this point distinctions -- we see some but not many meaningful ones between desantis and trump in the sensec that desantis ise1e1 abo34e tru. >> yes. >> i just think we should be clear about that. >> charlie sykes, thank you so much. mara, we're not done with you. one more conversation to have. so please stick around. the popular app tiktok is moree than a headachei] to parents of kids and teens. lawmakers and securityfá officis h threats to our national security. the ceo wasr and it didn't exactly calm anyone's fears. we're going to fill you in next.

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check. clear calorie labels? just check. with so many options, it's easier than ever to find the balance that's right for you. more choices. less sugar. balanceus.org general knack zoni, do you share the director's concerns? are you willing to answer -- >> one third of americans!u■ ge o!i■ news from tiktok every single day. one sixth of american youthqq s they're constantly on tiktok. that's a loaded gun, congressman. ■ loaded gun. that is how the director of the national security agency described americans' use of the chinese-owned tiktok app earlier this month. today in his first appearance at capitol hill, the ceo of tiktok faced criticism from both republicans and democrats over theñr mounting concerns that th

chinese government could access data from the 150 million american users of the app. something the ceo said today might just add to those fears from lawmakers. listen to this. >> mr. chew, has bytedance spied on americans at the direction of the chinese communist party? >> no. >> i ask you again, mjx chew. has bytedance spied on american >>ç don't think that spying is the right way to describe it. >> wow. let's bring in nbc news congressionale1 correspondent a vitali. alli, so what a moment there. what did you takee1 away from t hearing? it doesn't sound like tiktok had any supporters in the room and i would argue even after just playing that sound bite they might not have a lot more supporters when you hear what the ceo was just saying about spying ande1 not spying. >> reporter: e1yeah, ayman. no more supporters leaving that room than there were coming into it. and that's something frankly that lawmakers even said, that they left with more concerns than they had when they were

walking in. ine1 part because questions lik the one you were just playing didn't have the simple answers that lawmakers would have needed to give them any confidence over the security concerns or also the potentiali] for data privac being implicated by the chinese government. and this comes in the broader landscape of the biden administration issuing a qñ$q a lot of social media appse1 do. let me play5a

i have it on a phone with no other apps on fáit. i have a phone with one app and that app is tiktok. >> you have likee1 a tiktok burr phone. >> i have a tiktok burner phone. yes. >> why is it worthjf that? t's worth it worthjf that? to be able to reach the number of people that i can reach through tiktok. it's worth it to have!3pxúx!3

>> when i entered the office, the second time he was on the telephone who i later found out to be the vice president. >> you could hear the vice president? or you could only hear the president? >> only the president's end. at some point it started off, it was a calmer tone and then became heated. >> the conversation was -- was pretty heated. >> so as i was dropping off the note, my memory, i remember hearing the word wimp, he called him a wimp. i remember he said you are a

wimp. wimp is the word i remember. >> it was a different tone i heard him take with the vice president before. >> hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in new york. i'm in for nicole wallace. it was a striking invest lags from the january 6 hearing. details about a heated phone call between the former president and his then vice president on the morning of the insurrection. a key element in the pressure campaign that was waged against mike pence. that conversation very likely of keen interest to special counsel jack smith as he investigates whether trump unlawfully interfered with the transfer of power. new reporting in the "washington post" finds that justice department prosecutors have sought to learn whether trump ever acknowledged losing the election and what specific efforts he took to block the certification of the election. that is according to two people familiar who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the private process. prosecutors believe pence's private conversations with trump

could shed light on either or both, they said, pence is currently fighting the subpoena issued to him last month from jack smith saying his role that day as president means he is protected by the speech or debate clause that shields members of congress from facing questions from the executive branch. now smith has asked a federal judge to compel the testimony and pence's attorney emmitt flood along with four of trump's lawyers attended a hearing at a federal court in d.c. to consider arguments about whether former vice president mike pence must answer the subpoena. as "politico" notes, it is the weightiest constitutional fights that smith is likely to undertake and one that could shape the balance of power between all three branches of government in unpredictable ways. joining us now, "washington post" national political reporter michael sheerer. and also with us, former congresswoman elaine loria of virginia. she is a member of the january 6

committee. and former prosecutor and host of "the justice matters" podcast and matt dowd. glen and matt are msnbc contributors. great to have all four of you with us. talk to us about your reporting and what you've learned throughout the gathering of all this information about what happens next and the way this process stands as of right now. >> i think one important thing is what the vice president has asked for which is for the court to prevent some of his testimony does not include everything that the special counsel is likely to ask. we don't know what happened in that hearing yet. it is likely that mike pence will have to go before the grand jury and basically a presidential election season. he is not a candidate yet. he certainly seems to be moving in that direction. what he's claiming is the clause protects members of the

legislature from having to talk about their official duties with the executive branch. he was -- the president of the senate that day. and so he was on january 6. so he said he can't speak about that. it's an open question whether he'll be able to speak about the preparations for his role. it was a whole other category of stuff wrote about in the book. he said shortly after the election, look, if you lose these legal appeals, you should concede and run again in 2024. and the president's response is, well, that's a long way off. and all that kind of testimony could speak to motive which is probably crucial in this case. whether the former president knew that he had lost the election when he was taking these actions to prevent the transfer of power. >> yeah. i want to hone in on that for a moment. there is something else that you

write in your piece. in it you write in his book mike pence wrote about telling trump's son-in-law and senior adviser on the day the election was called that he was not convinced fraud cost trump the election victory. he was present with the meeting with sidney powell and rudy giuliani. i want you to talk about that. talk about how many different aspects of this effort pence has knowledge of and what a critical win it would be if he would be before the grand jury. to your point, yes, on january 6th he was the president of the senate between november, election day and january 5th, he was not president of the senate. >> yeah. that's right. and he actually writes in his book it was not until early december. so about a month after the election. the idea of his role in the senate comes up in white house discussions. i think everything before that

would not include his role as president. i think the other thing that is important to note here is, you mention that the attorneys for president trump were also present in the courtroom today. the president has asked for all of this testimony to be blocked under a different precedent. he basically claiming executive privilege. the courts rejected that. it's interesting that vice president pence has not endorsed that argument. he has not said he agrees with president trump's attempt to use executive privilege to block the testimony. he has not exerted it himself. so there are ways in which he is approaching this different from the president's counsel and they're at logger heads and the discussions happening outside far away from any discussion about what he would do on january 6 as president of the senate are at issue. so to that point, glenn, i want to ask you precisely that.

break down what likely -- for us what likely will happen or what was discussed during that meeting with all the lawyers today. you have pence's team as michael is saying there, using the speech and debate clause. trump's team exerting executive privilege. >> executive privilege has already been rejected in other settings because it is president biden's privilege to either invoke or wave. he has been waving it understandably. so the executive privilege claim will fail. i contend that the speech or debate clause will fail as well. mike pence was member of the executive branch even when he was performing ceremonial duties as the president of the senate on january 6th. and, you know, there is a party that seems to like original interpretation and strict construction of the constitution. the speech or debate clause applies to legislators. mike pence is not and couldn't

possibly have been a legislator. i think they will reject that argument. and the other thing, is remember lindsey graham who is actually a legislator was ordered to testify before the georgia state grand jury even though he plainly has speech or debate clause privilege. and the courts said there may be one or two questions, one or two areas of inquiry that conjure up speech or debate clause issues. you can decline to answer those. there are 100 other topics where you will be required to answer questions from prosecutors. i think for multiple reasons these claims fail and mike pence will see the inside of a grand jury room. >> the january 6 select committee did not speak to mike pence. did you hear from his former aide. let me play a little of what they told you and the committee.

>> just pick up. was it your impression that the vice president conveyed his position on these issues to the president not just to the world through a dear colleague letter but directly to president trump? >> many times. >> and he was consistent in conveying his position to the president? >> very consistent. >> the vice president did not want to take any chance that the world would see the vice president of the united states fleeing the united states capitol. it was determined that we would complete the work that we had set out to do that day. you heard there from senior members of mike pence's team. what outlying questions would you still have for mike pence? what specifically do you think jack smith will want to ask him about? >> i think that mike pence and mike pence alone can answer certain questions about the pressure that was applied on him, the context of the

conversations that took place between himself and the former president. we talked about this as the committee. although his close aides were very forthcoming in coming to the committee, we had the opportunity to speak to him directly. personally something i doubt and forthcoming in the context of the future political ambitions. which he would like to say to the nation was he scared of actions from former presidentoi? you know, he's been a little bit more transparent with some of the comments such as gridiron dinner. he clearly said they put him and his family in danger and those types of things. he called this out. he needs to call back and step back to defend trump on some other front. i think he's playing a dance really with his political intention with the future in mind. and i'd like to see is that he

what every american should do and if called to testify before a grand jury, he should testify before that grand jury. if there are specific facts or questions that come up during that interview that require him to assert some sort of privilege, then that will be taken iron a case by case basis. his duty is called to appear and the american public, they deserve answers from the former vice president, especially if he has intentions to try to become a future president of the united states. >> manning u, let me pick up on that political dance that he is trying to play here. the reporting on pence brings up some of the political implications. the such testimony could put pence in a politically perilous position as he seeks to reintroduce himself to gop voters. trump argued that all the criminal investigations he now faces are motivated by corrupt and partisan prosecutors. pence sided with trump in part saying the new york criminal probe into hush money payments to an adult film star was a politically charged prosecution and he was taken aback by the idea of indicting a former

president given the other crime challenges in new york. talk to us about how mike pence and a half gates these many trump investigations while keeping a potential 2024 run in mind. >> i think he's in it a politically perilous position anyway. he's been in that because republican base voters do not trust mike pence. they do not think he was full throated in support of donald trump. they do not think he's aligned with where they are which is why in every poll after poll after poll he's at 6% or 7% among republican primary voters. i want to take up just where something miss loria ended on this which is mike pence if he looked at his political career and would say, okay, let me put that aside, which is i -- in my view has been put aside by the voters. put that aside and do what is right. i think too often in this debate and this day-to-day thing about donald trump what we get into is

this okay, the people that love trump say x and the people that can't stand trump say y. or democrats say x and republicans say y. and i think we lose sight of what this is fundamentally about which is the integral nation of our democracy that losers who lose accept the loss. i mean that is as necessary in preserving a democracy as almost anything you could imagine in our society. for 240 years. the second part is this debate really should be in all regard, mike pence should think about this way, is the power of one more important than the will of the people? that's really what this -- it's not about whether who can't stand donald trump or who loves donald trump or whatever else it is. does the will of the people matter more than the interests and power of the one? and to me, mike pence ought to choose the path of the will of the people and i imagine in that case he's not going to benefit no matter how much he tries to

settle up to donald trump politically. the best thing and the right thing and the most politically expedient thing to do would be to do the thing that preserves our democracy. >> not to mention the most honorable thing is to protect our democracy as opposed to defend one man. i want to play for you some of cassidy hutchison discussing how the former president responded to the chants by his supporters to hang mike pence. >> i remember him saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be f'ing hung. and mark had responded something to the effect of you heard it, pat. he thinks mike deserves it he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. pat said this is f'ing crazy. i understood there to be dividers in the capitol that were chanting for vice president to be hung. >> it was a stunning reaction at

the time. and just recently trump doubled down and after everything trump has said to your point, matthew dowd, why in the world would pence be in effect protecting trump by refusing to testify? why is he beholden to this guy still? >> well, i think that's a soul wrenching question that i would like to ask mike pence directly. maybe in a confessional or something with what's going on with this. i mean, i think mike pence like so many other republicans believes, knows one thing in his heart that donald trump has been and has been and is dangerous to our democracy and destructive to democracy. i firmly believe mike pence believes that. i also think he has this other thing which is this inste gas station and enabling of the craziest part of the republican primary. he is afraid of. he is deathly afraid of the

donald trump part of the republican party which is now the majority of the republican party. so if he has any future in anything, and even getting just take the most craft thing, a paid speeches in front of people, he is afraid that he is going to be completely ostracized by that part of the party. i don't think mike pence has come to terms that most people can't stand him anyway. and donald trump really can't stand him as he evidenced by all of that. i fundamentally, the moral heart felt question you asked which i think is poignantly important is i don't know the answer to it. i think deep in mike pence's heart, he knows the truth of this. but he's afraid of the republican base. >> congresswoman, the 1/6 committee ended work by referring criminal charges for the ex-president. how confident are you that he will be held accountable for his

actions? >> everything that we see out of the investigation shows that the department of justice is taking this seriously. they're building on the work that we did. they did not need our referral. i think it was a strong statement from the committee that unequivocally we referred back to the department of justice with our assessment that we believed that there railroad criminal acts involved. so everything i'm seeing is that this investigation is moving forward rapidly. i don't have any additional information to what all of us are hearing and can know within the public until something is officially announced. as everyone here today on this show has said, no one is above the law. we have to ensure that he is held accountable. i think that mike pence as the former vice president, someone who in his role, you know, was responsible for upholding the laws of this country should follow them and should show up before the grand jury and tell

the grand jury and us the american people what he knows. >> loet me turn to jack smith's other investigation. the former president's attorneys expected to testify before the grand jury as soon as, i guess tomorrow in the mar-a-lago documents case. what do you make of that? why is that significant? >> you know, it's hugely consequential. we don't often have criminal defense attorneys testify about the clients' crimes except when the crime fraud exception applies which causes the attorney-client privilege to evaporate. i think the most interesting thing now moving forward is whether evan cork rinne will plead the fife nl amendment, will envoek his own fifth amendment right against self-incrimination because he believes he was kplooet complicit in donald trump's crimes or if he believes that he was an unwitting dupe, donald trump was giving him false information and he was simply

certifying it and passing it on to the federal government, then his truthful testimony would not incriminate him. he'd have no reason to plead the fifth and he can testify and frankly become one of the most sharply incriminating witnesses against his former client donald trump. so even though the grand jury proceedings are secret so we may not know these things right away, i suspect we'll know them before too long. >> all right. former congresswoman elaine loria and michael sheerer, thank you. stick around. when we come back, the house gop's courting of extremists continues a meeting today involving the speaker of the house is raising a lot of eyebrows. we'll talk about that. plus, the contrast between the ex-president and the current one could not be bigger right now. president biden is talking about the issues, donald trump desperately trying to spin his potential indictment to his advantage. later on in the program, bipartisan backlash. a post by the michigan republican party comparing gun

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a month after breaking with the ex-president saying that the police officer who shot rider ashley bab ott was doing his job, house speaker kevin mccarthy met with babbot's mother today when asked by nbc news why he met with her, mccarthy said only, she requested the meeting. joining us now, nbc news justice reporter ryan riley and matt dowd is back us with. ryan, tell us more about this meeting and what prompted it besides what kevin mccarthy says a request from the mother?

>> trump has been pushing back about this. he went on truth social after kevin mccarthy made a statement and said he disagreed with what kevin mccarthy said. it is speaking out of term with the larger maga movement. i think that is why ended up getting this meeting. nicky is the mother of ashley babbot and she's been a force to be reckoned with the republican caucus. i run into her frequently around the courthouse. way she was also arrested on the two year anniversary of her daughter's death after she disobeyed an order to get out of the street. she pursued that charge against her. it is one of those media grabbing moments. then you had a lot of media coverage around her arrest even though the video plainly showed

shein intended to get arrested that day. now she ended up with a meeting directly with the house speaker himself. although apparently from what i was told, kevin mccarthy did not want to meet with other individuals who sort of mickey has been hanging out with in term of the january 6th supporters. he would only meet with her directly himself. >> matt dowd, the speaker of the house, the speaker of the republican party or the leader of the republican party in the house, the party of law and order, the party of back the blue, the party that is all about the police in this country, he is meeting with the mother of someone who the far right has turned into a martyr after she was storming the capitol in this country. your reaction? >> you know, i've been acquainted with washington,

d.c., for a long time. i've not -- you know, i'm familiar with hypocrisy. not this level, obviously, that we've seen and seen by kevin mccarthy. it's amazing to me, i met with her because she requested a meeting. >> how many meetings does he get asked for every day. >> hundreds of people ask for a meeting including some of the capitol hill police officers that were involved in this that i think as of today he still refused, still refused meet w also i know he hasn't met with -- there's been many gun reform advocates, interestingly enough, that he refused to meet with. so the idea that oh, i just met with her because she asked, i think it's another example, again, along the conversation we had early better mike pence is kevin mccarthy is trying to manage one person so he stays on his decent side, i guess. the side of him that thinks better, i shouldn't say decency when applied to donald trump,

but the side of him that is before kevin mccarthy in this and not against him. but it points out as you say, as you say in your question, the complete utter hypocrisy that the republican party and especially leader -- keep in mind this is the guy third in line to the presidency. second after the vice president and to take over the presidency of this. but they have constantly accused the democrats of defund the police, defund the police, defund the police which as we all know is a lie where the democratic party is in the course of this. but refused to do anything to support the capitol hill police and refused and then they have members now saying that we should get rid of the fbi and fire the fbi. now they want to use the power of the office of congress to investigate people that are trying to enforce the law in new york. so, again, utter complete total hypocrisy. >> hypocrisy and contradiction at the very least.

ryan, let's talk about another piece of january 6th news. we had the sentencing of one of the more high profile defendants, i would argue, riley williams according to prosecutors led an army up the stairs towards the speaker's office then speaker pelosi's office on january 6. she was present when the laptop was stolen, sentenced today about three years in prison. tell us about her and what we learned about her. >> this is a moment you wish you could have a camera or at least audio in the courtroom. it was remarkable what the judge amy berman jackson went through in the sentencing. prosecutors come in with a high recommendation, seven years. that is because riley williams went to trial here and a little bit of trial penalty involved. but also just, i mean, the scope of her conduct. she bragged about how she led the army into the capital or up

the stairs towards nancy pelosi's office. but her defense tried to make her out to be sort of this just this young girl. they tried to say she was this, you know, just had no idea what she was doing. she was only 22 years old. i think that i judge amy berman-jackson took offense to the arguments just because she was young and short and because of her gender doesn't -- shouldn't, you know, shouldn't take any responsibility away that she had for her actions that day. she laid out how she was certainly old enough to join the army. she could have done an entire tour of duty before the age of 22. she was old enough to vote and there are members of congress who are around here age, right, there is one who is now in office who is now 25. and, you know, her height, i think they took a special offense to this. she was mentioning how, you know, marjorie taylor greene,

for example, is visiting january 6 prisoners tomorrow as s. about the same height as riley williams was. really what the focus the prosecutors was on and what the judge focused in on was the words and the actions that riley williams took and how she was using this mob as a weapon and also calling police traitors, telling other people who were in riot gear and in this military gear to push up against police. she really was sort of, you know, almost a joan of arc person leading a lot of the mob is how prosecutors portrayed her that day despite, you know, sort of her funky outfits and focus they had on her zebra printed bag, for example. that's not how she saw herself. she saw herself as a warrior and made it out that way. as we saw in a lot of her online communications.

>> ray epsa, a name everyone has become familiar with, a far right protester at the center of the right-wing conspiracy theory he was secretly working with the federal government during the attack on the capitol. he is called on tucker carlson and fox news to retract his quote falls and defamiliar torre statements. what do you make of this cease and desist from him and fox news? >> i think there is a bunch of people out there including ray epps that have seen that fox news is in a weakened pog right now because of all the lies and things they stole, the dominion lawsuit pointed out and the things they said internally about what they actually knew and what they were reporting on air. i think it's a demonstration, finally, i think, that fox news is might begin to be held accountable. and the damage they have done to truth. i just want to say one thing in

the course of this. bravo to people like ryan and others who continue to monitor this and not let us forget what happened on january 6th and that we actually have a system of government. even though it takes time and some people are leery of how long things take and how long it takes to hold people accountable, the fact that we have people monitoring this and that ultimately people are held accountable is a great thing. fox news, i think, is next on the line of entities that are going to be held be accounable. i think ray epps sees blood in the water. >> 1,000 more could face other charges. so, yes, accountability for everyone that has -- everyone involved in that day has to happen from the top on down. ryan riley, thank you. matt dowd, stay with us. one more conversation to have with you. a quick break for us. when we return, a war room mentality after mar-a-lago as donald trump and his am lows brace for a potential indictment.

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how about you? i'm just visiting. u.s. bank. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with retail banking in california by j.d. power. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with when a truck hit my car, retail banking in california by j.d. power. the insurance company wasn't fair. i didid't t kn whahatmy c caswa, so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to k how much their accident case is worth.h barnes. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehelpou as we discussed on this program, the potential indictment of the ex-president is unprecedented. therefore, there is no blueprint for how a sitting president is supposed to handle having a former and possibly future political opponent potentially on the cusp of being indicted. president biden has not weighed in. it doesn't sound like he plans to. one of biden's advisors tells

nbc news he is focused on the economy and bolstering budget proposals while his team monitors trump's calls for protests. the other side of all of this is vastly different. trump has falsely publicly claimed he was going to be arrested two days ago while reporting by nbc tells us he is trying to benefit politically by creating a media spectacle with a, quote, war room mentality. now permeating his mar-a-lago home and nerve center of his 2024 campaign. let's bring in cornell belcher and research and msnbc contributor matt dowd is still with us. speak to what biden's silence means in the manhattan d.a. case and in the work of the broader justice department. such a contrast to somebody like trump who never hesitates to pressure officials to get his way even as a former president and as a president he would weigh in on things that people would have preferred him to stay out of. >> right. well, there is two problems

here. one, there is the ethical, legal issue. you don't want the president -- the president is not supposed to be weighing in on issues before the courts. and, two, there's a political piece here where, look, it is intro politics 101. it's when your enemies are destroying themselves, i don't get in the way of them destroying themselves. i think the white house and the president, you know, they are one taking the high road on this as president. not trying to look like they're interfering in a criminal investigation which republicans would love. then they could paint this all as politics which is what they want. and then, too, look, you know, whether it is donald trump or even desantis, they're having a he really bad six, seven eight days, two-week stretch right now. the president is foolish to get in the way of that and take some of that incoming when they are right now doing a pretty good

job of dirtying, muddying up themselves. >> yeah. i was going to say, going after one another is probably the best thing for the democrats. they sit back and watch it. matt, let me read for you more from nbc's reporting on biden's thinking. biden adviser argued the election is too far away to gauge the impact of a trump indictment and also the white house is monitoring potential protests that might arise from an indictment. privately, white house officials voiced relief that calls for protest have largely fizzled out. it sound like for the biden administration it is national security challenge more than anything. but is there also a risk while the protests have not materialized, there is still concern that people out there will hear the president's call when an indictment, if an indictment does happen and could take action into their own hands as we have seen in the past with lone wolves? >> well, i have an expectation that that's going to happen and the president today in his social media posting actually seems to be encouraging it. he has one with a pick of him with a baseball bat, you know.

then he has another one where he says they're asking us to be peaceful while they destroy our country. both of which are signals to the crazies in our country which there is enough of to do serious harm to us. i'll also take up where cornell left off which is a couple of things is when one person is consuming all the oxygen in the room, you don't go in that room. right? you don't -- you stay where there is oxygen, not where it is being consumed by donald trump. the second thing which i'll give you a movie reference here. the movie "war games," i'm sure maybe y'all have seen it or maybe you know people that have seen it. this movie about a computer is going to start nuclear war, right? and there is a line of the computer at the end of the movie where he says, strange gain. the only way to win is not to play. and i think with donald trump, the best thing for joe biden and most others is the only way to

win is don't play his game. >> we always welcome movie analogy on this program. let me get your thoughts. sources told nbc that trump aides are slammed as they respond to turn the possible indictments into an advantage. what does it say about our politics that team trump thinks that they can turn a criminal indictment into a political weapon? >> yeah. well, i'm going to go back even further and pull from a play, not a movie. >> cultural references are deep today on this show. i like it. >> you know, it opens up with a line all is foul and all is fair. there is something not amiss in the order of the world here where you actually have a presidential campaign. by the way, the guy who leading the other republican side if you look at recent polls actually opening up a larger lead on the republican side. and the primary process. looks at how, you know, an indictment would be a good thing.

right? there is something wrong with our politics and something wrong with the politics on the extreme right where you can have someone being indicted, facing multiple indictments and this being used as a way to, in fact, energize their base. which i think they will energize the base. i wouldn't be surprised if they raise a lot of money off of this and you do feel rallying and immobilizing around trump on the far right which is absolutely -- absolutely help him in a primary with desantis and others. >> i believe i have seen some senators already circulating fund-raising e-mails on the back of this possible indictment that has not yet happened. to your point, cornell, i would not be surprised if republicans try and milk this for every monetary penny they can. please stick around. i have a lot more to talk about. a comparison that shocked the republicans. the michigan gop comparing gun bill passed by democrats to

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to disarm them. president reagan once stated if we lose freedom here, there is nowhere else to escape to. this is the last stand on earth, #secondamendment, #gop. the tweet included an image of wedding rings removed from holocaust victims with the caption before they collected all of these wedding rings, they collected all the guns. the tweet, as of now, is still up. and the state party is dismissing the criticism as, quote, bogus authoritarian frenzy over the legitimate comparison. we're back with cornell belcher and matt dowd. the michigan gop actually doubling down. no word. can you believe it? >> it is kind of unbelievable. and, look, it's disgusting on many fronts. look, just regardless of what the issue is, people don't

compare anything to the holocaust. don't compare anything to that evil. and when you do it, you're hurting yourself. and, look, it is disgusting. it is extremism. it is really interesting that they're quoting ronald reagan also talking about guns as i recall reagan put in gun reform in california, particularly after the black panthers showed up at the state capitol with guns. now we want gun reform. interesting that they're quoting ronald reagan in that. but, look, the movement is changing around guns. go back ten years. they were afraid to talk about guns. it is the third rail. we lose on the issue of guns. what young people in michigan and what young people in florida and young people across this country are beginning to do is change and say we are not going to live like this any longer. we're not going to no longer do this. and they're changing the environment around the issue of guns right now. and it's one right now that i think republicans are really going to start losing on. >> matt, michigan is no stranger

to the threat of violent extremism. we have a party comparing gun reform to the holocaust. your reaction? >> well, i grew up there and born in detroit and you think i had a niece who was in a dorm right where that shooting happened at michigan state while that is going on. there is just so many -- d is one word can you describe this as cornell did disgusting. it's deplorable as hillary clinton might describe it in this time. i mean, i think that it's fundamentally -- michigan republican party who's led by this, i mean, i don't say this lightly, she is prima fascia evidence that we have a mental health crisis in america, the fact she is head of the gop. this is a woman that says that yoga was satanic. that beyonce is evil. throughout the election denier in the course of this.

she lost by a bigger margin in that state for secretary of state to the democratic incumbent who ran on a platform democracy. she lost by a bigger margin than any other secretary of state in any of the other purple states in america. they lost the governor's race. they lost the attorney general's race, the republicans. theyko■ los!■ the legislaturew3 s( rqr and what is theiri] reaction to that? is to put the biggest loseri] i michigan in charge of the michigan republican party who has had a history5a■ of saying outrageous things. zez a me, it's a 3n> party that really -- and there's leaders in the party that have no interest in expanding it.+■ they woulñ■ rather have añiñit( shrunken political paf"atty as g asçó they knew they were devote to all the same things they are, and the me the pesting is anti-semitism at the highest tom compare the twol-ju outrageous.] they're the first ones to go after -- to bring up soros any

tiañ something comes up. we know there'sok been a dramat risexdr it's bad politically. it's outrageous, and it should not even be discussed in thise1% time that we have to have leaders of añi party doing thisn a place like michigan. >> and it's becomingu increasingly normalized among republicans.ñre1 cornell, the detroitxd free pre had interesting -- linda corleas gave checks totaling -- but has given nothing since. i just think they lost their soul saidr the party shifted to the extreme right, is not focused on solvinr problemsok and increasingly hasá anti-woman's philosophy. the more ie1 sqmy thet( more i disappoint with thei] party.fá orloans is not alone it will ç

eed campaign i]alone it will ç refinance in this country. i earn aw3 living as ar so i have a benefit of lots of money bei.#á part of the proces, but i'll tell you right now, we shouldn't be lloyd to have two or three people fundi] parties d organizes in this way, and wefá got to fix it. >> i appreciate your honesty. it's refreshing to hear that, because we can all agree money to some extent is contributing $

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thank you for spending this thursday afternoonxd with :jnus. starts right now.ri melber a, ari. welcome to "the beat." i am ari melber, and morejf importantly,fá this is james carville. veteran gristled strategist joins usñi for the first time since trump escalated. your our guest. i'll see you in a minute. sometimes we get clues. sometimes wer what's going to happenñixd out this usually secretive probe, and sometimes we report on the 9-