tv Alex Wagner Tonight MSNBC March 23, 2023 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT
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drop, a diligent search was conducted and removed from the white house of florida i swear, or affirm that the above statements are true and correct to the best of my knowledge. well, we now know that that wasn't the case, at all and prosecutors want to know why. the fbi found more than 100 classified documents when they searched the premises two months later. prosecutors later asserted to finding the documents that called into serious question the representative made in the june 3rd certification. and cast doubt on the extent of cooperation in this matter. and other, words perhaps obstruction of justice. an appeals court ruled this week that evan corcoran must provide -- as well as documents and reporting mr. corcoran's expected to appear before the grand jury as early as tomorrow.
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though jack smith with a one-two punch today. not everyone's blessing about alvin bragg, the stormy dallan's hush money, probe donald trump's legal headaches when it comes to the special counsel, they appear to be multiplying. joining me now are laura jarrett, nbc legal correspondent, and michael maher, former u.s. attorney for the middle district of georgia. thank you both for joining me. laura, we couldn't stop talking to you last, time we need more to say. i want to hear your assessment of how involving mike pence will be to testify here. it sounds like he's privately or's attorneys are making paste of the concept, you know it's likely we'll get pulled into? this >> the hardest thing about this, this is he's gone public with a number of different interactions, and reflections that he's had. about really -- that happened both before and after the election. and yet the argument --
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he should be amortized at least as to his role as private incident of the senate, and the ministerial asset of kept -- counting the votes. but now that he has had a wall street journal article, and a book tour about, this it's gonna be hard to see where is he's gonna draw the line, and i think that's gonna be the hard argument that i imagine that that front and center of judge roseburg, and the d.c. federal court today. >> michael, i would assume that if you're a former vice president of the united states you have handlers. you have lawyers. and one would imagine that when you embark on this book tour, there is gonna be something legal considerations about what he was talked about publicly on nbc, news on the page of the wall street journal, and what position it put him in, in terms of further investigations. do you think that wasn't a consideration that was made? >> well, i'm glad to be with
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you both. i really think that he believed at the time that he was selling this book that he was just on a media blitz. and he was planning to run for president. i give no credence to his argument at all. i'll just tell you, there's a lot of -- down here. pulling the same types of. argument and that's where it belongs. it's not gonna go anywhere for him in this case. he did talk about it publicly. he's repeatedly talked about it. publicly when he's trying to sell a book -- unprecedented and unconstitutional. he's refusing to honor. and it's unpatriotic. there is no viable claim at this point to somehow hide behind these constitutional arguments that he's making. it's just not gonna go anywhere, and you certainly you're not gonna go anywhere with the judge. but let's remember what the privileges about it's about a deliberate process, it's about the ability to talk through a
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problem without worrying about testifying about the inner markings of the problem or reaching a solution to some kind of issue. it's not here -- to overthrow the election to try to shield the discussions from disclosures. and the constitution that he's making about the, versus the legislator and congressional. batch that's not gonna carry the dame for it either. >> michael, is there a world in which a narrowly subscribe set of conversations that pans has in the context of him being a president of the senate. that are of senate. everything else, including conversations that happened in the oval office there's nothing to do with his mr. narrow role, those aren't off limits, in other words there's some version of this resolution where he gets to hat the speaking of a boston era set of
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conversations but the important conference the most relevant conversation is very much on the table as far as conversations from the ground jury. >> there might be a way to split the maybe in the circumstance there might be some conversations that are protected and off limits a mckenna say they're necessarily follow under the constitutional. but the judge may say, look, i'm not gonna make you go into. this mister prosecutor but i'm not gonna let you talk about that. but tell me about what happened, tell me about what you saw, tell me about what you observed. tell me about what was said to. you tell me about those types of things. and at the time that are more i guess contemporary is type of observation, as opposed to something that he talked about with a colleague that's in the senate at the time that he may have been standing in the chamber. something there may be a way to do that, and i could see how that could happen,, but again
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the special counsel's looking for this information about what does trump know. what was pre told to, do what did you see at the time. did you get a no, did somebody send you. something this will really get at the heart of what's going on and at the other end of washington away from the capital. >> i can't get past the fact that we're now talking about the two key witnesses in these two. events trump on january six, seven corcoran, the guy involved in the mar-a-lago documents retention case. to me, those are the kind of witnesses that you'd and an investigation. and you're a creature of the doj, which -- you understand perhaps how these things work in a way that a lot of other people don't. do, should we infer anything from the fact that these very high wattage, important key figures are potentially testify in the coming days in jack smith dueling special counsel probe? >> it's the beginning of the
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investigation, you wouldn't try to serve a subpoena the former vice president of the united states, an opening -- that wouldn't be an opening. move i think it's fair to say, this is the type of thing that you feel jacks mitt feels as though he's amassed enough evidence. and gotten to the endgame. where he really now need something to close. it and wrap up whatever is. left i hope it's. mentioned that the courts gonna be far more sympathetic to a jack smith, that perhaps to the january six committee. in typical cases, i think michael agree with me on, this courts are way more likely to allow someone to testify in front of a grand jury. in a criminal, case than they are in terms of legislative open hearing and that type of thing. congressmen are trying to get different trump executives, executive branch people to testify in the open hearing. it's very different than going behind closed doors in front of a grand jury, and of course -- we'll see what he does. but i think maybe for more
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sympathetic to jack smith, the intrigue here that he perhaps would've been for congress. >> let me ask you another timeline question, as you seem to agree that mike pence wouldn't be that starting guy -- do you think these investigations, jack smith's probe into january six of mar-a-lago are happening in parallel tracks, because i've always thought about the mar-a-lago thing must be further alive in the january 6th case. which seems massive, and unwieldy, a it'll take forever, how do you see that moving down the track. >> the facts of the mar-a-lago documents probe are easier, certainly. it's except for the fact that some of the material witnesses have been caught up in all of this litigation, like evan corcoran. but we've talked about this on, pliant i wondered about this if you see how -- and that's the different thing with the special counsel, but on that when they really were to the tune of two separate lines they, different volumes, if you remember and so they release them at the same time.
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it may be in this case that he does one versus the other we just don't know but i can see a scenario where he does everything all at once instead of staggering. >> we would've assigned them at the same. times maybe end them at the same. time michael, rightly refers to the tangle of the thicket of lawyers who are involved in all these things. i've been asking our wonderful very patient producer, to make a graphic for me, there we have a, let's pull it up. these are the lawyers we need to color code. i don't know if you could see this michael because it seems like -- the homeland, there are so many lawyers who are involved in different cases, as either counselor witnesses, christina bobb is involved in the jan sixth staff but she's also a potential witness, and classified documents, evan corchoran's eyewitness in the classified documents, case but his counsel to trump, and the john six case. i mean it is, seems to be, not a lawyer.
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it seems like a nightmarish arrangement when you talk about counsel and multiple probes who were cross pollinating things as councils are witnesses. >> yeah, the only thing surprising to me that i could see the diagram is of their five -- get involved in these. cases with the former president. i think trump has done the masterfully at. times it's a way of putting a buffer between him in the law when he oftentimes has lawyers you can see that with michael cohen sort of how we handled him and what went on when he asked him to do. and we now have a story wound up there. and even here, mr. corchoran, he is writing a letter as opposed to trump giving the letter, trump side of the certification. cars that is fact his property, his residency, but the lawyer did. it he bills them these degrees of separation. and when you try to delay things, -- and inquiries and everything
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else. he just makes the not of it. bigger and it took more strands and that and somebody needs to unravel and you do see that and the duran helps with that. hey don't think at the end of the day that it shields ham. or that it shields mr. corcoran from the inquiry that he's now obviously enough to give information. it's not meant because you have lawyers that are involved in different cases. doesn't prevent them from talking about things that would typically be covered in the attorney-client matters. if in fact the court finds it might fall under something like -- something else. and all that testimony to come in. it's not that it can't be a knot that can't be untangled, but it's something that's caused, it will cause its fair share of delay but i think you see the prosecutor move i don't think will be any impediment for jack smith. i'm happy to see him come in, and put the pedal. down and get things moving along. this is something, an
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investigation that is taken far too long, it's good to see them move. we talk about these cases that somehow are trying to send a rocket into the moon. these are just criminal cases, criminal investigation, that somebody have documents that were allowed to have. it's a pretty civil inquiry, -- but the facts, the underlying allegation is fairly -- if somebody paid a payment that was illegal in new york, it's pretty simple. it was a call made to the secretary of state in georgia, in an effort to present someone to change an election count, it's a pretty simple thing. it's good to see things moving forward and i think at least in my opinion, -- >> michael moore should be heading up the special counsel, when he makes it sound so simple. michael more, thank you both for your time, and i sincerely appreciate. it we have so much to get to tonight including the logical
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outcome of ron desantis's backward looking educational policy, it appears to protect protecting children from classical. our plus house republicans aren't just calling -- they appear to be weaponizing the actual federal government for him. that's ahead. ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪ ♪ breeze driftin' on... ♪ [coughing] ♪ ...by, you know how i feel. ♪ if you're tired of staring down your copd,... ♪ it's a new dawn, ♪ ♪ it's a new day... ♪ ...stop settling. ♪ ...and i'm feelin' good. ♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd medicine has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy makes breathing easier for a full 24 hours, improves lung function, and helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia,
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>> as we await the likely first timer indictment of a former u.s. president. the first indictment in american history, we're already seeing another. first republicans in congress led by house judiciary chairman, jim jordan, he's using his power as congress people to act as quasi-defense attorneys for a former president in a potential criminal case. and not just in the court of public opinion. which needless to say is also happening. in addition to the normal fox news head, on monday, congressman jordan took it upon himself. and reportedly at the request of one of president trump's lawyers to send this letter demanding that the testimony of manhattan district attorney, alvin bragg. the prosecutor of course investigating trump's alleged hush money payment. and one congressman jordan was asking for here. for a state prosecutor to testify before congress, to lay out all of his evidence and internal communications about at ongoing criminal
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investigation, in front of a bunch of allies of the very person that investigators might be trying to prosecute. , wow that's a five alarm fire in terms of the separation of power. it's what congressman jordan himself might call the weaponization of the federal government. now mr. brag, politely declined chairman jordan's requests this morning, saying in a letter that brags office will quote, always treated -- due respect. and requesting a meet and confirmed understand whether the committee has any legislative purpose. it sort of seems clear what the committee's purposes. now unfortunately, jim jordan isn't just some random letter writer, he's a congressman in the chair of the house judiciary committee he has subpoena power, and he's likely to at least try and use that. exactly how the district attorney bragg responds to the house republicans and how democrats respond, all of that really matter is because this is likely just the first indictment against president
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trump. the odds are pretty good that the leading republican for -- 2020, for that he'll be actively fighting multiple criminal indictments wall on the campaign trail, and that candidate seems to think so. to trump called for all of the prosecutors, and all of the investigations into him, he called for them to be removed from office. and alvin bragg specifically trump -- as a source backed animal. and referred to his office as the gestapo. and trump use that charge language while criticizing calls for his followers to respond peacefully to this indictment. trump's trying to reframe the narrative, from being an investigation from his alleged crimes and he's trying to make an investigation into the investigator. and republicans in congress are using the power of the federal government to help. joining us now is democratic congressman jamie raskin, ranking member of the house oversight committee.
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congressman raskin, thank you so much for being here, you are a scholar of the law, we've heard the phrase, investigate the investigators many time in the trump era, this feels different, is this even legal for jim jordan to ask alvin bragg to come before congress in the middle of an open investigation. >> let's start with, us we actually have jurisdictional authority over the department of justice, of and house judiciary committee but it's very well-established that even there are with the doj, where there is real jurisdictional oversight responsibility that we cannot intervene in an ongoing case. then you take it from the federal level to the state and local level, or we have no jurisdictional power over the investigator of impacciatore's and this is unheard of an outrageous it's clearly an attempt to elevate donald trump
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completely above the law, completely above the constitution and that's what's so scary about, this the gop is turned into a missy anett cult of personality. around one. guy who's proven himself to be a one-man crime way, and they've wrapped themselves in their careers, their destinies around donald trump, it is staggering to me that trump lawyer joe tacopina, suggested that the house judiciary committee do this -- and they've turned follow suit into -- i think you rightfully suggest could be unconstitutional, and then there's the reality of if they actually did this, you told the washington post and again that it could completely backfire even if they managed to get alvin bragg up to the hell can you talk about the ways in which democrats use a potential danger zone for republicans if they do in fact go through with all this? >> well, alex, the emperor has
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no clothes at any level, during the impeachment trial the radical all the republicans was if there is a real problem you don't need to impeach and convict them just prosecute it when he leaves office. that's fine. now all the prosecutors are saying that there's these criminal -- how dare you prosecute a former president, someone that's put himself forward to run for president again. they will devise any argument to try to guarantee the total immunity and impunity of one donald trump. , they're taking us into unknown territory in society today. >> i do wonder, when you talk about incognito in new territory it's not just what trump is asking congress to do in this judicial kind of fashion. it's also the threat to he's at at prosecutors and in particular the manhattan district attorney calling him a thorough back to animal. and then today the former
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president shared a post on troop social there's a link to an, article that shows a picture of trump holding a bat next to alvin bragg's face. i mean does that rise to the level of the threat of violence against a prosecutor? >> well, some of the people who are in the d.c. jail right now. is january six convicts. aura suspects are people who wielded baseball bats and batons and flagpoles. and metal poles. another weapons like that. donald trump is obviously. sending a not very subliminal signal to his most avid followers out there. i trust that the good district attorney has -- it's a very dangerous moment when you have people at his level giving license to violence, and violent attacks.
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including on law enforcement. this is something we'll be dealing with tomorrow. when marjorie taylor grain is gonna be reading a delegation from the house oversight committee. to go to the d.c. jail to visit the january six defendants. who she described as political prisoners. like alexander showed -- nelson mandela in south africa. or navalny today these are not political prisoners, there are 20 of the mayor, 17 of them have been charged with assaulting federal officers including with baseball talents, baton, confederate polls and spraying them with knox's -- chemicals in. those are the people they're gonna visit. and by the way, they're being treated just fine in d.c., jail there to facilities there, the central detention facility and the central treatment facility. they're in by far the better
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facility, with open area that they're guaranteed for five hours a day outside of their self. they need to go outside weather permitting -- active to recreation. and they have computer tablets available to them for more than 12 hours a day. and an institution that's been fully accredited by american correctional association. they've got it pretty good. as prisoners and detainees and suspects go. some of them have still not pled guilty at. or have been considered anything. they're entitled to the presumption of innocence. but a lot of people that they're visiting tomorrow i think eight or nine of them have already pled guilty. to serious charges. like assaulting federal officers. and all of them are being charged with very serious offenses. like seditious conspiracy, conspiracy to assault federal officers, staying in excluded
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facilities with a dangerous weapon. disobeying the officers, wielding weapons against officers, and so. on my republican colleagues don't talk about any single, case they won't name any of these people, because they don't want the media looking into what they actually did. but i highly recommend to you -- recommend you are a part that was done by justice security which goes through the cases of the people who are actually there. and the media should keep it in. mind when they're touring the facility of the so-called political prisoners. by the way, while they're calling for the release of political prisoners. i love it of marjorie taylor greene, chairman omar, and laura boebert would call for the release of electing alexei navalny, a real political pressure. held by a war criminal, vladimir putin and russia right now. for his stand against the corruption of the russian government, will they call for the release of a real political pressure, i challenge them to
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do that while they're calling for the release of many of these people who have been convicted of violently assaulting our officers. >> i think we know whether they're going to defy putin and call for navalny's release. but i sincerely appreciate, a the indication of alexei navalny's name, and the work he's done trying to bring justice and transparency to russia. and, also the invitation to do the right thing democratic congressman, jamie raskin, always great to see. you thank you so much for your time today. >> thank you. >> when we come, back explosive new reporting about how senator, kristen sinema really actually feels about the democratic party she left behind. and what democrats are prepared to do about her. >> plus how did masterpieces of renaissance art lead to the firing of a school principal? the answer is, isn't it always, florida. we'll explain, coming up next.
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of david. made by one of the greatest artist of the renaissance. michelangelo. in the early 15 hundreds. arguably, one of the most famous sculptures in the world, and, yes for the record dave it is totally nude. more than 1 million people joined the statue of david every, year it's an iconic piece and one of those visited museums and florence, and it away. and gave its nudity, comes with a bit of history, soon after michelangelo completed that masterpiece, he also made -- christ the redeemer statue literally, the creation of adams fresh go, for the sistine chapel. well those works of art are also featuring nude objects. when the catholic church caught wind of the nudity, they banned it, watching the fig leaf campaign of art censorship. some members of the vatican called for the figure of adam, -- sistine chapel, they called for it to be censored. nude figures, michelangelo's other fresco, they're the last judgment.
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those figures got under -- u.s. christ the redeemer statue got a permanent bronze -- and renowned statue of david got a physically. that was the 16th century. sometime around the 20th century, david specifically if was finally removed. according to some historians it happened in 1912. now, today in the 21st century a school board in florida, appears to be channeling that 16th century big leaf campaign. a charter school in the state capital, called tallahassee classroom, a school began teaching michelangelo's masterpieces to its sixth graders. meaning, a school mandate to teach kids in that great about the renaissance. but one parent complained about the lesson, which included michelangelo's david. and the creation of adam. along with not a chiles versus bertha venus, that parent complain that the lesson was pornographic. two other parents complain that they weren't notified in advance of the lesson included new today. that might upset the orchids.
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seemingly inspired by governor ron desantis parental rights, slash don't say gay legislation, that tallahassee door-to-door passed a rule last month requiring two weeks advance notice for parents of any curriculum that is potentially -- the chairman of the school's board now wants tallahassee -- cutting edge of desantis's education agenda. he said that parental rights are supreme. and that means protecting the interest of all parents, whether it's one, ten, 20, or 50. and this case, the interest for the parents who spoke up accounts michelangelo scandalous masterpieces. and that is enough to force the schools principles out of her job. last week, the school's board voted that the principle would be filed -- didn't resign over this history lesson. in a statement released this afternoon and -- the principal said the chairman of the school's board was more concerned about litigation and
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appeasing a small minority of parents rather than trusting my expertise as an educator for more than 25 years. the thing is tallahassee classical might already be on the cutting edge of governor desantis's education policy, because just a couple of weeks ago the florida legislator introduced a series of education bells to expand the state parental rights, don't say gay law, which bans instruction in public schools, on sexual orientation, gender identity, and age-inappropriate content like immunity. those regulations that are currently in effect through third grade and they're now seeking to expand those regulations for older students as well. the governor's board of education is now considering its own expansion of the law through 12th grade. -- his role could be suspended. or have their teacher licenses revoked. the state board of education alive out on the proposal next month. so get your field believes ready.
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tuesday adam exchanging facebook messages with arizona senate, kristen sinema about a lightly used pair of badly -- whatever you think of the u.s. senator reselling her shoes on facebook. it's worth noting the time mention. there are 11 a.m. on a tuesday. that's right around the time that senate democrats with their weekly caucus lunch, to discuss important legislative matters during the week add. , the newly independent senator sinema has been saying behind closed doors about the democratic lunges according to a new report from politico. , quite those lunches were ridiculous. -- republican lobbyist that our assumption and lockington this year. explaining why she stopped attending her caucuses weekly lunches. sinema boasted that she had better uses of our time. then those, dumb ones. better uses of our time like selling used designer shoes to strangers? according to politico, it was more than just long lunches that senator sinema complained about to lobbyists.
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during the period she posted that she helped block tax increases for the wealthy. you derive truck humor, and raise the middle finger when talking about white house chief of staff, ron mcclain. is that kind of bold affection that let one democrat to tell politico, she's the biggest any maniac in the senate. all of this is part of what's become kristen sinema's new brand. the progressive turned moderate turn independent senator took a new role as a defender of the wealthy financially. when you might call a private equity class. as politico notes it's hard to overstate sinema's closeness with private equity ridiculous. she spent part of her 2020 resets interning at a sonoma winery owned by an executive in the industry. one senior administration officials said they've concluded the way to win sinema's vote on a crucial agency nominee is to have private equity executives weigh in with her. and after her take on the -- the upper school priests in a
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humble rectory. who surrounded by many of his pews, and wanted a cut. joining us now is -- co-host of the podcast, unclear. jamele, i know that you read the story much like ida, and my eyes i had up for my had a couple times. one of the things i saw most disturbing perhaps what george santos -- is the way in which it's increasingly like higher office is being seen by certain people as a springboard to personal wealth? like a kind of legal grift that they can pull to n ash at some point. do you see that happening here is this more kristen sinema's particular psychology around money? >> i think that it's always been the case that there have been people who've seen higher -- public office,, generally is a pathway to self enrichment. but this is gonna sound a
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little crazy, and the past, those people were often a little less obvious about it. it's still maybe has some interest, something they wanted to pursue whether it's, personal political, power or they're winning for their party. whether that was accomplishing something like a project, these things are in dialogue -- what's so strange about senator sinema, is first the absence of shade about her desire to ingratiate herself in the private equity executive. and the height -- and disinterest, and actually doing anything beyond assisting -- class of america. and she's more than willing into instruct large parts of the democratic party agenda. the agendas she ran on in 2018, over to accomplish these goals
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-- [inaudible] we're not just independents but have authority to work quality. [inaudible] >> you know, jamal, i think you're right to point out the shamelessness and all of us. and the sense in which she thinks other people should be like. or in the story, she says that she's kind of amazed that other senators haven't taken the narrow -- in the senate to then sell the most important votes in the senate, and who similarly basically hold hostage the party for demands that are untethered to other policy agendas. but are completely self serving. do you think there's a risk that people look at cinemas example of impunity unselfishness and say, i want to be like that, to i like the
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power that comes along with being a swing vote if you want to la call her. >> i don't think saw [inaudible] senate democratic caucus called matt eagle -- [inaudible] he thinks they may have occasionally to act on the roll. they also understand that they're part of a collective effort. , so if they want to further collect this effort, barring from extraordinary desire that they have. they might suppress some of the same things they want to do. in favor of that effort. time saying it's a novel light -- this is what you're supposed to learn when your eight, ten, 14 years old. playing soccer or football or whatever. and a senator from arizona doesn't seem to have picked up
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al-assad. >> i just wonder, what democrats, what you think the democratic party should be. in some, ways they need her vote, right? to pass anything. and she's out there, stomping gracefully with public x 20 investors and only listening to them when cases need to be made about must pass legislation. what do you think democrats do in the meantime? >>, well i think it's clear, that the strategy so far has been to stay on our good side, that sort of the. and what you'll notice, is that she is -- preelection next. yeah there's no real indication at this point that anyone in the senate democratic caucus, intends to campaign for her independent bed. she's clearly hoping that the arizonan emerati party holds nominee, splitting the vote three ways and possibly electing a republican, possibly electing kari lake for example. but right now, in a three way
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pulling involving hypothetical democratic candidates, senate republican candidates in -- she's -- she's at the bottom but the democratic candidates at the top. , so whatever strategy or hope seems to be negotiating the power text of the, yes it may not be playing out the way she hoped. it's, possible that it will next year a long time before it's howled, but she's playing really risky game electorally and not -- necessarily from the play on the flavor. >> i'm curious political strategy being the candidate of the explicit -- of the private equity class. it's great to see you. [inaudible] >> the least popular people. >> exactly, exactly. thank you, my friend. we'll be right back. ♪ breeze driftin' on... ♪ [coughing]
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