>> today on velshi, we're following breaking news out of mississippi, where at least 23 people are confirmed dead after damaging storms, including a tornado, ripped through parts of the state overnight. we've got a scene on the ground following the rescue and recovery effort. they will bring us a live report in just a few minutes. plus, brand new reporting on the trump investigations. the special counsel investigating january 6th is one step closer to forcing the testimony of several of donald

trump's top aides, including then chief of staff, mark meadows. and mike pence could be staring down the same fate as his lawyer was seen entering a closed hearing about the subpoena he's been served. all this, as trump continues to post provocative, even dangerous messages about the manhattan district attorney, who's investigating him on another case. plus, congresswoman maxine waters joins the ranking member of the house financial services committee it's here to talk about another tumultuous week for the economy and what is next for every american worried about their mortgage rates, the cost of living, even the safety of their banks. and a very special meeting of the velshi banned book club will come to order. our guest this week is not an author, but a member of the club. she has 100 years old, a longtime defender of the freedom to read. her personal story is something we hold. velshi starts now. [interpreter]

>> and good morning to you. it's saturday, march the 25th. i'm ali velshi. for the past week, donald trump has been relentlessly attacking alvin bragg, the manhattan district attorney investigating the stormy daniels hush money payment for which the former president could possibly face a historic indictment. let's set that aside for a moment because despite the attention and vitriol that trump is sending brags way since last saturday, there are actually a lot of new developments in that litigation. trump was not arrested, as he claimed one week ago that he would be, and the grand jury has only met once this week on the matter. in contrast, a pair of recent court rulings in other trump investigations found that the twice impeached ex president may not be as privileged as he likes to believe. giving jack smith the justice department special prosecutor, major breakthroughs in both of his trump related investigations. yesterday, the u.s. district court judge, merrill howell, ruled that mark meadows, trump's former chief of staff

and seven other former trump white house aides, seen here on the screen, must comply and provide their testimony in relation to smith's january 6th investigation. trump and his legal team tried to block the group of former aides from participating in smiths inquiry by claiming executive privilege over their testimony. an assertion that howell rejected in her ruling. about a week ago, howell made a similar ruling, ordering one of trump's lawyers, evan corcoran, to testify in smith's other investigation, involving the classified documents case. more importantly, ruling that trump could not assert attorney client privilege. now, that is fundamentally different from executive privilege claims, a power that only the sitting president has. but for howell to find that the attorney client privilege no longer applies to corcoran in the documents case means that the justice department provided sufficient evidence to overcome something that's known as the crime fraud exception.

that means the court and prosecutors have reason to believe that donald trump committed a crime through his lawyers. an appeals court upheld howls ruling earlier in the week and yesterday, corcoran appeared at the federal courthouse in washington, d.c., and testified before the grand jury for about three and a half hours. it has been a devastating few weeks for trump and his team. they've been dealt many legal setbacks, as the multiple criminal and civil investigations continue to close in on the former president. aside from the manhattan da's stormy daniels case and the justice department's twin trump investigation, there's also the separate election interference probe in georgia, which is led by fulton county district attorney, fani willis. now, in response these developments, trump has unsurprisingly begun publicly attacking and harassing the prosecutors who are investing him. using his accounts on his social media platform, truth social, to launch a series of increasingly unhinged and

ominous posts about his prosecutors. in the last seven days, he's gone from calling on his supporters to protest and, quote, take our nation back, to raising the specter of violence, suggesting that there would be, quote, potential death and destruction if he's indicted. and trump has taken particular aim at this man, alvin bragg. he's the first black person to leave the manhattan da's office. trump has called bragg a racist, an animal, and human scum, all within the last seven days. trump even went as far as the post a link that featured suggestive split screen image showing a photo of bragg next to one of trump, himself, holding a base well that. that post was eventually deleted yesterday afternoon around the same time that news broke that the manhattan da's office received a letter addressed to bragg, containing suspicious white substance and a typewritten note that read, quote, alvin, i'm going to kill you. sadly, we've been here before.

trump is using the same type of suggestive and dehumanizing language to rile up his base as he did in the weeks leading up to the insurrection. and hours from now, donald trump will hold his first official campaign rally of the 2024 election. in waco, texas, where 30 years ago, federal government agencies were involved in a 51 day standoff against an extremist separatist group known as the branch dominion, which ended in tragedy. a curious and provocative place to kick off a campaign, seemingly intending to stir up anti government feelings, as donald trump, embattled and running out of options to escape accountability for his actions, tries to become the head of the american government again. i'm joined now by -- former acting u.s. attorney and a former assistant u.s. attorney of the southern district of new york, also with us, carol lam, a former u.s. attorney for the southern district of california. a former superior court judge in san diego county and an msnbc legal analyst. both of you in person, that's a treat. good to see you both.

i'm trying to make sense of all that stuff that i just read. i know what the words mean, but i'm trying to determine what's the most serious. the accusations of threats against alvin bragg, the baseball bat. i've got to imagine that it's against the law to threaten your prosecutor. but this idea that trump's former aides, including former chief of staff needs to testify under oath might be a bigger deal, legally. >> well, you can take your pick. they're all important in a way because it's which one is going to actually lead to potential charges against the former president? and that is what's going to make this most important. i have to think that the forcing witnesses to actually appear in the grand jury over they're -- over trump's objections because of the piercing of the attorney client privilege, i think that's very important because what these investigations agencies need to, most of, all

is investigate and get the real facts. i think both you and i feel that investigations have to get to their natural and and they have to be based on what the actual facts are. if there are people saying, we can't tell you what the facts are because there are these privileges that we can't, that say that we can't tell you what the facts are, that's, in a sense, it runs the risk that missed impressions or mistakes are going to be made by the prosecutors. so, i think that's to me actually the most significant development here is that a federal appeals court has said, no, those privileges don't hold because you would mess the burden of proving that the clients fraught exceptions exist through the attorney-client privilege. >> let's talk about that because i know most of us don't get involved in the singing don't know what that means. generally speaking, we believe that when you talk to a lawyer about something, that's privileged communication. that's between you and your lawyer, nobody can pierce that

they'll. what does this crime fraud exception mean? >> generally speaking, it's a protective privilege. it's one of the privileges that most is protected in the law. you need to be able to speak freely with your lawyer. so, it is significant that that privilege was pierced here, because it does require, as you noted and as carole has noted, shown to a court that you made, what they call -- a case that the communications with your attorney was done to further the crime or a fraud. court has found that you've made that showing. >> this was about the fact that a lawyer for donald trump wrote a letter to save all those documents have been handed over, which was subsequently found to be untrue? >> correct. >> and as carroll said, it's important that there may be -- the department of justice didn't know and they need to get, like, may also be that they know what happened and

they need to establish it through evidence, through testimony. and i think they know probably what happened. and so, this is an important point, carol. because in the other case, the executive privilege, where the trump aides claimed that they can testify, they're being called to testify. it also feels like the justice department knows what the story is. the january six committee largely knew what the story is. they just don't have it in these peoples words, under oath. how big a deal is that? >> so, it's hard to say. i mean, also they have a suspicion of what's happening but there are often surprises and people come forward and they say, well, you have it 80% right. let me tell you for example conversation i had in the hallway with a potential defendant. you know, there can be things that they just don't know about and that's why i think it's so critical. remember in the grand jury, there is no judge, there's no defense attorney. it's just the prosecutor and the grand jurors, the court reporter, and the witness. and so, there is a lot of leeway that the prosecutor has

to explore little angles. this is not like the kind of court hearings you see on tv, and it's also important to remember that the grand jurors themselves are the investigators. they are not forced to sit in silence. they can ask questions as well. so, i think that what we see here is a possibility that there are different angles and different conversations, and some different facts that may actually come out. and that's why i'm thinking all of these, is really extraordinary. there are three active grand juries in the investigations going on at the same time in different jurisdictions. and all of them, it's possible that some additional facts will come out. >> importantly, under oath. >> that's an important distinction. >> -- things that help your case, you're under oath, there are consequences. unlike a lot of these people claiming that the january six committee interview was political or politicized. the court says if you lie under oath, there are real consequences. >> unfortunately, it's become quite normal to shade the truth,

lie, or to advocate in a way that is misleading. the grand jury, if you do that, you're under oath, there are consequences. >> so, donald trump has talked about these, particularly the manhattan, potential indictment that he is the one who told us about. he was the one who said he was going to get arrested. he's talked about that and the unrest that will occur and take your country back, all that. these are indictments. they have been their indictments, they're not the whole ball game. there's still actually a court case in which he and his lawyers get to represent their case in which there is a presumption of innocence. he does feel like he's jumping the gun on this one, talking about the unrest and taking your country back because if he gets charged with anything and any of these cases. he still has the presumption of innocence, these are still criminal cases, he still goes and gets to defend himself. >> absolutely and i think it's in donald trump's advantage to conflate all of these, right? so, when you have an indictment,

it means that the grandeur he has found probable cause. it's not that high ascended. probable cause can mean that a crime has been committed and this person committed it. whether there is going to be an arrest or not is yet another question and i will actually make a prediction, which i try not to do, but i will make a prediction that there will be no arrest in this case because there's no reason to. you feel an indictment and arrest person if you believe that person is going to be a flight risk. that's simply not the case here. this person is running to be the president of the united states. so, what usually happens is there's a negotiation between the prosecutors and the attorneys for the targets to have himself surrendered. he would appear voluntarily in new york to be have his first appearance and have conditions of bond set. if there is an arrest in this case, it would, in my view, only because donald trump wants there to be an arrest for the photo opportunity. but that's a completely

different stage from actually being indicted. and then of course, as you point out, there's than the full lead up to a trial, and that's at the trial, there is beyond a reasonable doubt burden which is much, much higher than probable cause. and it has to be proven to a jury of 12 unanimous verdicts. so, there's a much higher standard for the trial itself. thanks about the, you get to see a. both thank you for joining us in person. caroline. all right cara by the way is former u.s. attorney for the southern district of california and he is -- for the southern district of new york. former vice president mike pence may have to appear before the special counsel investigating his former boss's effort to overturn the 2020 election. i will talk to pence's former senior adviser, olivia troye about that possibility. plus, the latest on the war in ukraine. china she jinping visited moscow could weapons and ammunition's from beijing tells the grinding war in russia's favor. we continue to follow the

breaking news out of mississippi where at least 23 people are dead following an overnight tornado. we look out to rolling mississippi after the break, you are watching velshi. up to $26,000 per employee, even if it received ppp, and all it takes is eight minutes to get started. then we'll work with you to fill out your forms and submit the application; that easy. and if your business doesn't get paid, we don't get paid. getrefunds.com has helped businesses like yours claim over $2 billion but it's only available for a limited time. go to getrefunds.com, powered by innovation refunds.

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everything's changing so quickly. before the xfinity 10g network, we didn't have internet that let us play all at once. every device? in every room? why are you up here? when i was your age, we couldn't stream a movie when the power went out. you're only a year older than me. you have no idea how good you've got it. huh? what a time to be alive. introducing the next generation 10g network. as we were saying, we have the only from xfinity. the future starts now. sad breaking news out of mississippi. search and rescue crews are looking for survivors after a deadly tornado tore through the state midwest region. according to mississippi emergency management, at least

23 people are known to have been killed in the storm last night. officials say more are likely trump under the rubble. the tornado struck the towns of silver city and rolling fort. knocking out power, leveling homes, look at these pictures and buildings. the mayor of rolling fork says quote, it has destroyed the city. let's go right nbc news correspondent priscilla thompson who is near rolling ford, mississippi. priscilla, you are in an area which typical and the area that you are in especially after a tornado where you have bad signal, you are a little bit choppy but so, far we can see you and hear. you tell us what you see so far and what you know to the situation? >> that is right ali, we are about ten miles outside of the roland fort. we were just there driving around and what you see is very similar to what we just showed in those pictures. absolute devastation and destruction. you are seeing homes that have been completely removed from their foundation, homes that have just completely caved in

the roof. they are completely gone. you are seeing trees that have been tackled in uprooted and falling into homes. all of those types of things that we see in these types of situations. 18, wheelers there is a lot of 18 wheelers and tractor trailers that are here and again, completely picked up and move to an entirely different area. i spoke to some residents in silver city where we were earlier this morning. they talked about seeing this tornado coming towards some. some of them saying this all tornadoes and we know that there were around a dozen tornadoes that were reported overnight. it's unclear. some of those reports may have been duplicates. we know that one of those tornadoes is on the ground for about 80 miles leaving a trail of destruction and those residents that i spoke with robert, and zach talked about running into their homes and sheltering and closets and in bathtubs and for a couple of

minutes around 3 to 5 minutes and coming out to just absolute destruction. thankfully, they were okay but as they walked around the apartment complex, they believe that someone in their complex passed away as a result of this. the homes just completely caved in on that person. so an incredibly devastating and sad time here. we won't know until later today when the national weather service is on the ground and has an opportunity to survey how intense these tornadoes are. how many there may have been but lots of folks coming back home and seeing nothing. and just incredibly devastated by that loss and the loss of life here. among them we know a father and a daughter. ali? >> it is remarkable to see people coming back after a tornado because even though you live in a place where there may be expected and you know what they look like, the idea that a tornado can cut a path and leave some parts of the area

untouched and then your home is gone. it looks like it is gone through a shredder. it is always one of the hardest things to report on when you watch people come back and start to sort through their stuff. we will stay close to all day. priscilla, thank you for this. nbc priscilla thompson in rolling fork, mississippi. continue to follow this breaking story and bring you the latest as we learn more. coming, up very special meeting of the velshi banned book club. a few weeks ago, i received an email from 100 year old member of the velshi banned book club name gracelyn. a passionate supporter of the freedom to read and to access book. grace had created this beautiful quilt affecting a bookshelf featuring covers of banned books including a velshi banned book club features by tony morris and two boys kissing by david lava stat. this, week grace addressed 500 people and a meeting of the martin county school board in florida. she spoke about how critical access the book is. not just for everyone's personal freedom but for freedom collectively. for the maintenance of

democracy. here is a little bit of the speech that has gone viral and touch thousands of people. >> banned books and burning books are the same. both are done for the same reason. fear of knowledge. fear is not freedom. fear is not liberty. fear is control. >> fear is control. talk about never quitting the fight. grace is 100 years old. her husband died fighting in the second world war and she does not think our families work fighting for democracy is done. so excited, grace lane will join me later in the show to talk about her courageous speech, our dedication to reading and her passion for democracy. that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that... ...i need a breakthrough card... like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more... plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases!

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for disease control showed the devastating spike in maternal mortality in 2021. now that is the measure of how many women died during or immediately after pregnancy. and as you can see, the rate nearly doubled from 2018 to 2021. experts believe covid-19 was the driving force behind the spike but maternal mortality was already a huge problem in the united states. it should be noted that this problem is even worse for women of color. the maternal mortality rate for black women's nearly three times higher than the rate for white women in america.

to put this into context, maternal death rates in the united states are historically some of the worst. some of the highest in the developed world. more than ten times the estimated rate of other high income countries like australia, austria, israel, japan. so this was a long-standing problem in this country before the supreme court overturned roe v. wade and half of the country went up about banning abortion. shuddering woman south clinics and investigating ob/gyn. 's health care experts have for a while now pointed to the link between abortion access and the general quality of maternal care offered by a country. abortion access of women's health are not actually two separate issues. they are the same issue so now that we have the data to back that up, two reports released within the last four months found that restricting abortion access in the united states has worsened the maternal death rate in the united states. women and states with abortion bans are up to three times more likely to die during pregnancy, childbirth or soon after giving

birth according to a report published in january by the gender equity policy institute which is nonprofit research organization. those findings align with another study issued in december finding that maternal death rates and 2020 where a 62% higher in states with abortion bans or restrictions compared to states where abortion is accessible. now this is mainly because abortion restrictions are delaying care for all pregnant people. and states like idaho for example, a near total ban on abortion is causing doctors to leave the state resulting in a lack of reproductive health services for thousands of women. in ohio, doctors have become more hesitant to treat women who are undergoing miscarriages for fear that they will be prosecuted for violating the states six-week abortion ban. so i want to talk about this like between abortion access and maternal health in the u.s.. to do so i'm joined by the renowned scholar dorothy roberts, professor of law and sociology at the university of pennsylvania law school. she is the author of several

books including killing the black body, race, reproduction and the meaning of liberty. dorothy, you are literally an expert on this issue. talk to me about the correlation? we already have a few problems in this country including the fact that we don't have universal health care. we do not have uneven distribution of health care between white people and people of color. now we have this. now we have restrictions on reproductive health care which has a direct line to women's health regardless of abortion. >> that's right. you already pointed out so many ways in which there are restrictions on health care and reproductive health care are connected. so first of, all we see that states that have the biggest restrictions on abortions, the ones that are banning abortions are the ones with the worst health care system in general. there are also the ones with the worst maternal health care and the ones with the worst racial inequities and health care. and i think it's really

important to look at why it is not black women, black pregnant patients are the most likely to die from pregnancy related causes? that gives us an insight into this connection. what the reason why is because of already existing health conditions, poor black people in america and so that shows you the places that have inadequate health care in general and inadequate living conditions are the ones that also because of the bans on abortion are going to have the biggest impact on peoples health. also, one of the reasons why black women, black pregnant people are more likely to die from pregnancy related causes is because of bias within the health care system and doctors

who don't take heave of the pregnant patient of complaints about what they are experiencing. either during pregnancy, during the labor or afterwards. that also shows a general in attention to the needs of pregnant people. and so we have to pay attention to how health care in general, in a quality not just in health care but in our society, in the state that have the worst inequalities. they are the ones that have the most restrictions on abortion and the worst health outcomes for everybody but this affects the people who have most disadvantage. black people, black pregnant people the most and so that's why it's so important to tie together these issues in order to understand why it is that

america has the workers, the wars maternal debate among wealthy nations but not just that, it's getting worse and it's been getting worse. this is not just about covid, it has been getting worse. >> i want to keep this image on the screen for a second because we are looking at these maternal experts, 100,000 live birds. you see mexico has a worse situation than america does but then you have, chilly turkey and then you go to france, australia, austria, israel, japan, five, three, four, and four per hundred thousand. we are at 31 in america. if you are a pregnant person in america, if your chance of maternal mortality is much more akin to a developing nation. mortality level and if you are a person of color in america, it's kind of like you live in a developing nation in terms of your chance of dying of pregnancy. >> oh it's worth. it is more dangerous for a

black person in america to be pregnant and the mississippi delta, which by the way are the very states that first began this ban of abortions, louisiana, alabama, mississippi, the decision came out of the mississippi abortion ban. it is more dangerous for black women to give birth there than in rwanda or kenya. this is why the u.s. is not only an outlier among wealthy nations, it's an outlier in the world because in most nations, even developing nations, that maternal mortality rate is going down. it's increasing and the united states and it's been increasing even before covid. and so we already have this, atrocity in the united states. that's from pregnancy related causes. it's as you said, almost three times as high for black women and it has been that kind of

disparity for decades. this isn't new and banning abortions is going to make it worse because as you pointed out, doctors now have to decide between saving the life of their pregnant patients who may need to terminate the pregnancy to survive and going to prison. you know that is just an abominable, unethical position to put positions in in this nation. and it's a brutality, it stands out among nations. and so for that reason and also just the general way in which it shows, a disrespect, a dehumanizing impact on peoples health. that is a reason why this ban on abortion weather decision allowing them for the abortion

is going to increase maternal mortality and just one of the many ways in which compelling people to be pregnant. to give birth and criminal and pregnancy in general. an abomination. it's a terrible, inhumane way of treating people and calls for reproductive justice which black women have been advocating for four decades. reproductive justice that understands the connections among all of these issues. this is an issue of human rights. it's an issue of social justice, racial justice. gender equity. it's an issue of health justice and we have to see how they are all related to each other. we have a human right to have children, to not have children and two parents and a healthy,

supportive, safe community. and the decision interferes with all of that. that's why this connection is so important to understand. >> well you study it more than most at the intersection and i'm sorry to say dorothy, the work you spent your life doing gets more and more relevant every day. i would love for to be the other way but that's not the case. there are, they get the see you as always. thank you professor roberts. dorothy is a professor of law in sociology at the university of pennsylvania law school in the founding director of the penn program on race, science and society at the center for african studies. also an award-winning author portable important books including killing the black body. race, reproduction and the meaning of liberty. yesterday, a delegation of lawmakers not by the republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene of georgia took a field trip of sorts to a d.c. jail to visit several january 6th offenders. some of those republicans have called these incarcerated insurrectionists political prisoners. let me remind, you they are in jail on charges like assault

and police officers, obstructing an official proceeding, breaking and entering into a federal building and the showing federal property. these are real and dangerous crimes. but there are actually real, political prisoners wrongfully detained in jails around the world. about 60 americans are currently being held hostage in four nations. several were freed this week and in a few minutes, we are going to give them the coverage they deserve. ection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. ♪♪ what will you do? will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator

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♪ zyrteeeec...♪ works hard at hour one and twice as hard when you take it again the next day. so betty can be the... barcode beat conductor. ♪ go betty! ♪ let's be more than our allergies! zeize the day. with zyrtec. starting now to the war in ukraine were on the frontlines, the battle for bakhmut continues much as it has for months with neither side gaining ground or taken the city and with both sides suffering tremendous losses of man equipment and ammunition. far from that hellish front, in places like odessa, zaporizhzhia in the capital of kyiv, russia continues its strategy of unleashing hell on this it isn't really by a self destructing, iranian-made shahed drone.

continuing to cause death and destruction but also continuing to fail to kill the will of the ukrainian people. and a defiant crept this week, the ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy left the capitol and made a trip near the front to personally thank soldiers who are fighting in bakhmut. also making an important trip this week, the chinese leader, xi jinping who visited russia's vladimir putin in moscow for the first time since russia's full-fledged invasion of ukraine last year. putin has visited she and china several times since, in a joint statement both leaders reiterated their friendship and pledged new economic cooperation. there was no mention of chinese aid or russia's war, although u.s. officials have warned beijing or have warned that beijing may be planning to provide moscow with lethal aid at some point. the joint statement did address the war or a quote the crisis as the statement called it. while not so subtly criticizing ukraine's western partners, calling them quote

confrontational blocks that add fuel to the flame. should be noted that she has tried to insert himself at least read the publicly portray himself as a mediator with chinese state media characterizing the trip as a part of a push for peace. and i, statement the united states criticize chinese so-called attempts at peace and china's public promotion of russian propaganda relating to the war. it comes as u.s. chinese relations continue to drop in addition to the spy balloon scandal, china continues dangerous provocations in the south china sea. , yesterday for the second time in as many days china directly threaten the united states for sailing navy ships into the dispute of waters. this time having serious consequences. join me now as bobby coach a columnist for bloomberg opinion. his latest piece dived right into the heart of the matter. not everyone is laughing off xi plan for peace in ukraine. bobby, good to see you and thank you for being with us. you know in kyiv on the

anniversary of the war, vladimir zelenskyy was asked about this chinese 12-point peace plan. he said no one has talked to us about. it he did not write it, up he did not say we are not interested but he said no one has actually talk to us. i would be very happy to talk to president xi about this. that might happen, that might not happen. >> while there is some talk of xi jinping making a phone call to zelenskyy. it might not happened yet, but it might happen then the next couple of days. until he has a, call the risk of the cause that china will be seen as being entirely on russia side off this conflict. if you are on one side of the conflict, then you can't realistically claim to be a mediator. zelenskyy was being diplomatic. i don't think the terms of those 12 points that you referred to, he has rejected those points in other contexts. not directly in the context of the chinese package but i find it hard to imagine that zelenskyy having turned down those ideas before will now turn around and say well xi

jinping is saying this a let's do it. the key point of porous is that peace plan allows russia to take possession of territory that it has essentially taken from ukraine. and then it gives russia breathing room to re-harm and to build up its forces, we are today that russia may be calling up 400,000 more people for its depleted army. it gives putin breathing space. look at from a sort of outside independent point of view, that doesn't seem so much of peaceful of a plan as a let's give putin some space. >>, right space in that context and it did not come up in this discussion about space in that context's arms and ammunition. the whole world has some sort of a supply chain or shortage of ammunition, there are even western governments who are worried that all the supplies by munition and small arms might deplete nato countries for their own purposes. china does not have a shortage

of arms and ammunition. they are not currently supplying that to russia but that could be a game-changer if they do. russia is literally running out of bullets and china could solve that problem. >> yes it is but trying to has been careful not to go down that route. i think a big part of the issue is china does not -- if it wants to be taken seriously as a mediator, it can't very well be arming one side of the conflict. especially when you are criticizing the west for doing the exact same thing with the other side. my, do china is providing plenty of non lethal assistance including armor. including some ships that are used in missiles and in other weapons of war. so indirectly china, they are helping and buying putin some space would be an enormous assistance to the russians. russians of enormous arms in the industry. they are capable of producing a lot of those bullets and those are munitions. they have been running low

because they are using up so much of that. if they were able to get some downtime, from the actual conflict then their factories could ramp up those weapons, manufacturing right away and, to three months, six months down the line began to rain down the fire on ukraine and see more of those images with which we have started to segment. >> bobby, get this you as always. bobby thank of, course i saw you last week at the golden conference but nice to see you again on the show. bobby gauche, the editor and columnist for bloomberg opinions. all right coming, up multiple american hostages were released from captivity this week overseas. i will talk to diana foley whose son james was kidnapped and killed over a decade ago in syria. about the hard work that it takes to get people home and what the family should expect. delicious any time of day. only from ihop. download the app and earn free food with every order. you want a loan to build a factory in america? you can't do that. this is what we were up against.

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100 days to change your mind. it's simple. anything else i can help you with? like what? visionworks. see the difference. this, week three american nationals who have been held hostage or wrongfully detained

were released. just last, night the u.s. resident and belgian citizens called -- was released and prison and rwanda. he had been an outspoken critic of rwanda's government and specifically, of rwandan president paul luka me for decades. he was the manager of a hotel during the rwandan genocide in the mid 1990s. he helped save the lives of over 1000 tutsis who took refuge there. now that story sounds familiar it's because about ten years, later don cheatle starred as mr. -- and the oscar nominated film hotel rwanda. mr. rusesabagina's family says he was kidnapped in 2020 and was put on trial over his ties to the opposition party called the movement for democratic change. he was sentenced to 25 years in prison and now he is freed. he's expected to return home to his family in texas in the coming days. the saudi american citizens, saudi arbery him i'll mahathir was also released. he was in prison in saudi arabia for more than a year

after he criticize the saudi government on twitter. mr. ahmadi was 72 years old have been living in florida was detained while visiting family in riyadh, in 2021. and he was sentenced to 16 years in prison for his tweet. and finally jeff what, key un-american aid worker who was kidnapped by an ices connected group in niger in 2016 was released this week after being held captive for more than six years. last night the james w fully legacy foundation which advocates for the release of hostages and wrongfully detained people tweet about this image of jeff what he, his wife and two sons reunited in san francisco after more than six years apart. according to the fully foundation, there are around 60 american nationals who are currently being held captive or who have been wrongfully detained in countries around the world. the united states does not have a straightforward system for fighting for the release of hostages and detainees and often, the fate of detained or

caption americans depend on public pressure and advocacy. after the, break i will speak to the foremost expert on hostage and detainee advocacy. somebody who gain the status unwillingly but has made it her mission to advocate for the freedom of all americans unlawfully held abroad. i will speak to diane fully next. use it to set and track your goals, big and small... and see how changes you make today... could help put them within reach. from your first big move to retiring poolside and the other goals along the way wealth plan can help get you there. j.p. morgan wealth management. ♪ ♪ we're reinventing our network... ...with smarter, more efficient routes... ...so you can deliver more value to your customers. fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service. james fully known as jim to

family and friends with a free lunch analysts and videographer who specialize in covering conflict. they began reporting and iraq then afghanistan in libya and finally in syria. in november 20, 12 jim was kidnapped in northern syria by islamic state terrorist. they demanded more than 100 million dollars for jim's release. and nearly two years after his disappearance, james foley was murdered. his execution and his beheading was filmed that uploaded to youtube under the title a message to america, jen was 40 years old. his mother diane foley hasn't

made it her mission to advocate for the freedom of all captive and wrongfully detained americans around the world. not just americans, everybody who is detained wrongfully. joining me now is diane, fully the president and founder of the james w fully legacy foundation who had the privilege of interviewing last week on the topic of hostages and they're wrongfully detained and the global security farm in qatar hosted by the stephan centre and diane, interestingly enough since you and i had that remarkable conversation last week, we have seen a number of people released. it feels like some progress has actually been made. >> i missed the plot, all of that progress. and i really think it is where our government is beginning to realize that it really needs certain party experts like to font and others as well as really important international partners. like qatar, belgium, rwanda. we must have ways to talk to one another. nobody will come home if we

will not speak to the people holding our citizens. >> you actually made that point about. jimmy felt when you look back at what could have been different, one of the things you said to me was that you wish you could've communicated at the time with his captors? >> exactly. the captors reached out to us briefly about a month, for a month in the middle of the two year captivity but our government was not allowed to engage. and without any engagement, his state -- that is the other american. we're really feel that we must talk to people even if we disagree with them and now that more and more countries are targeting us as citizens, it's even more complex ali, because often capper think to interfere with our foreign policy and our

government alone cannot negotiate their freedom. >> that is the imbalance here? right you have somebody who is captive and you would like the government or whomever to do whatever they can to get that person released but then this becomes political because sometimes his captors, particular the these days as they become state affiliated or that maybe people like britney griner, arrested by a state wrongfully detained to negotiate for something else. that's when it becomes possibly more complicated than it used to be. >> very difficult. hostage enterprise we have a president who was really set up primarily to deal with terrorists who take up people or criminals. not for state government which make it infinitely more complex because of the implications to our own foreign policy, economy and you know targeting of citizens as we travel

internationally. >> let me ask you, i am sorry to interrupt you diana. you spoke to one of your sons captors? >> yes, yes i spoke three times to alexander cody because that was a part of his, he did plead guilty to all of this count. the part of his deal was his willingness to talk to victims families. >> where are we now? when i spoke to roger carson's who is very involved now in the u.s. organized, effort sort of multi faceted effort to try and get people detained, he pointed to you. he said you have been instrumental and causing the u.s. government to have sort of a all government approach to getting people released. you said we have made a lot of progress since jim's killing. but not enough? >> well we, have we have but it's difficult. it's very difficult and that's

why i certainly command the current administration and our current special envoys for hostage affairs because they have been willing to work with trust and third parties entities. people who are experts but outside of government as well as other international partners as i said. i think developing trust and dialogue is essential. i don't think we will ever really understand what another person who takes the citizens are wrongfully arrest them wants. we need to be able to talk to them. we need to be able to find -- >> nothing will change. the fact that you lost your son but is there something that moves in your heart when you see that we have got progress every time you hear news of somebody who was released and reunites with their family? oh, yes there is no question. that is a part of jim's legacy but also the legacy of many others. it wasn't just jim who died, it was steven saar lock --

peter kassig, we have others robert levinson. a lot of the hard work of the levinson family. the legislation that has ended our affairs, the look at cases of americans who are arrested abroad and see if they meet criteria for wrongful detention. all of those things together plus the current families bring our families home campaign. all of these folks, they desperately caught in this ordeal of their loved ones who has been taken hostage ironically detained. so it's thanks to a lot of people, we stand on their shoulders. >> a lot of people say they stand on your shoulder, thank you for the hard work we are doing diane. diane, foliage and would be proud of what you have done. she is the mother of the late journalist james foley. the founder of the president of the james w for the legacy foundation. we are following the aftermat