hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york and we begin today as we have done so many times, too many times, on this show with a crisis that is uniquely ours, uniquely american. today our country witnessed the 129th mass shooting of this year alone, this one, like so many these days, took place at a school. three young students and three staff members were killed today. they were killed at covenant school a private school in nashville, tennessee, after a shooter walked in and opened fire. after law enforcement engaged with the suspect, the shooter was killed, according to law enforcement. the shooter was a 28-year-old

woman. at this hour not much more is known about a potential motive but it is worth noting at the top here how rare this particular specific situation is involving the shooter. according secret service there were only five female shooters out of 173 attacks from 2016 to 2020. in washington, d.c., president joe biden has been made aware of the shooting called it sick and heart breaking in brief remarks. we turn our attention back to the community affected today, back to nashville. in nashville families will be grieving for the six people who went off to work and school today and tragically lost their lives. and as a country, we must collectively continue to ask the question, when and how does this ever stop? does it ever stop? the anger and frustration of americans was best summed up today by a woman named ashbey beasley, who happens to be a

survivor of the shooting in highland park, remember that one? took place in illinois on on the fourth of july last year. seven people were killed and 50 more wounded. she was on vacation just a few blocks from where the school shooting took place today and heard shots fired and ran to the scene. watch. >> aren't you guys tired of covering this? aren't you guys tired of being here and having to cover all of these mass shootings? i'm from highland park, illinois. my son and i survived a mass shooting over the summer. i am in tennessee on a family vacation with my son visiting my son-in-law. i have been lobbying in d.c. since we survived a mass shooting in july. i have met with over 130 lawmakers. how is this still happening? how are our children still dying and why are we failing them? we can't even pan gun safe storages through protect kids from getting hold of weapons that they shoot each other with. aren't you guys tired of this? aren't you sick of it?

>> we have to do something? we have to call our lawmakers and make our lawmakers make change now or this is going to keep happening and it's going to be your kid and your kid and your kid next. because it's just a matter of time. >> peak 2023 after surviving a mass shooting in her hometown she went on spring break with her son and witnessed another. joining our coverage, clint watt, former consultant to the fbi counterterrorism division a research fellow at the foreign policy institute and joining us dave cullen, writing about mass shootings in our country for years, his latest "new york times" best seller "parkland birth of a movement." former senator claire mccaskill is with us, but we start with tennessee state senator heidi campbell who met with the families of the students of covenant school today. what can you tell us about how the families are doing? >> hi. i just spent the past five hours in a waiting room nobody should ever have to be in, the worst

waiting room i've ever been in, just watching families who were waiting to find out what had happened with their chirp. and saw one woman find out she had lost her child and the primal scream that came from her was just unbearable. this is insane. we are -- our gun culture is out of control and for those who think it's not about the guns, i'll point out that you can't have gun violence without guns. >> senator, is there anything that people watching can do to support your community today? >> we don't need thoughts and prayers. we need common sense gun reform. this is ridiculous. i appreciated the comments i just watched from ashby who was just coming through our town and had to once again experience a horrific shooting, and we need common sense gun reform and we need it yesterday.

>> the stupidity of the sort of response from gun -- from expanding access to guns, usually takes shape in the earliliest hours. i'll cliff note it you need more good guys with guns to deal with bad guys or gals with guns. do you have any understanding of the circumstances today and do you have any understanding of why this school and these very young children were targeted? >> i don't know the details of that, but i don't think it's good to focus on the details of that because inevitably what we have are people that shouldn't have guns in situations where they shouldn't be using guns killing people that shouldn't be killed. you know, once again, i'm sure we'll go through the details of this and talk about mental illness and mental illness is a huge problem in our country and something we have to address, but this is an issue that is about gun violence because these

kids would not be dead had there not been a gun involved. >> our friend and a regular on our show shannon watts tweeted this out and caught our attention, this is the tennessee member of congress who represents nashville, his name is congressman andy ogles, republican, this was his family christmas card. it feels like the district is represented by someone who isn't just an advocate for access to guns but fetishizes them. what is it like for that community to be represented by someone like that today? >> having spent most of the past year running for congress against andy ogles, i am -- i can corroborate that he is somebody who very much supports our gun culture in tennessee. look, you know, it's ann issue about freedom, but i can tell you right now, that it's not

about freedom when dealing with parents who don't have the freedom to know their kids will be safe. >> i remember being on the air when uvalde happened. i called on some of the same friends standing by to cover today's tragic school shooting at covenant and i asked a lot of elected officials about all the kids who starting at 3 to prepare for mass shootings at their schools and the active shooter drills change as you go from 3 and 4 where you're hiding from a bad guy to 5 and 6 where you have a little more sense it could be someone with a weapon to 7 and 8 when you're helping other classmates and moved into closets by teachers to 9, 10, 11 hang on to your phone to is send the texts that become imprinted in every mom and dad's brains, sometimes the last messages from their children. what is it like to be a kid in tennessee right now and train

for active shooting that maybe feels more real after this shooting at covenant? >> the parents in that room were trying to figure out how they were going to talk to their other children and their surviving children about what they had been through, and the situation that you just described is just so sad. it's just so unfortunate that our kids are kind of growing up in this culture of terror. >> what do you want people watching to keep in mind as the community takes months and years to heal from what happened today? >> i want people to actually put their energy into making sure their elected officials are committed to common sense gun reforms. that's the only thing that is going to change this. you know, i'm not against the second amendment, but we can certainly do something about the fact that the wrong people are getting ahold of guns.

there are all kinds of options for that and i really want people to stop praying and giving people their thoughts and prayers and do something about it. >> i want to add to our conversation some of our other friends. dave cohen, we're going to have to get to you some specialty in natural disasters or, i don't know, maybe bank fallout so we don't have to call you so often when there's a mass shooting especially when the target is a school, but i wonder what goes through your mind when this familiar headline flashes across all of our phones? >> sometimes i don't know how to feel. this has been a bad week because a lot of people probably didn't hear there was a shooting in denver a few days ago at east high school which was three blocks from where i lived in denver for ten years. i've been in that school many times. i wrote big chunks of the book

"columbine" across the street, and yeah, i can't tell you. i have a personal connection to about five mass shootings now, and i wonder how many people are left in america who have not. and i agree with senator campbell and thank god for ashbey beasley. it's going to come to people like them and -- one thing recently i took heart from, people still doing the work. a couple weeks ago, earlier this month i was asked to be the keynote speaker for the national pta's annual, how they call it, capitol hill sort of lobbying effort and i was a little taken aback they wanted me to do it and focus on guns this year. because of all the issues i felt with this house of representatives, it's not going to happen, this congress, right. but i was so impressed the more i thought about it. they're not taking two years

off. they're going to keep working, changing minds. the other guy doesn't take two years off when they have the houses of congress. they're in the trenches, working, changing minds slowly for the next chance when hopefully in two years it will be in different hands again and pass the next law. you know, shannon watts and gabby giffords, ten years after sandy hook, nothing, it seemed impossible. people were saying this is the end gun safety. they had no chance of winning anything. they just did it anyway. and they spent most of their early years in the state houses, state legislatures where they lost and lost and lost, but they started learning how to win and they started getting smarter and they started winning and now in in the state legislatures they're winning most of the

battles because they kept showing up when it seems impossible. to me that's the only thing you need to keep asking america to do and moms and people out there who have given up the faith is, it can happen, the hopelessness is a self-fulfilling prophecy. you have to go out and do it and eventually we can knock this down, but it takes a bunch of people like shannon and gabby and ashby and senator campbell just doing -- anyway. >> i mean, dave, i hear you. but, you know, the public has risen to moment. 85% of the public supports a policy that has no chance of passing. 90% of the public supports bans on stocks, 95% on universal background checks. universal gun owners support storage. i think shannon and gabby, they've done their work and

persuaded the public to do something. what is entrenched is the political lock that the nra has on the republican party and republicans for better or worse still win elections. how do you solve for that? >> totally. we saw the strategy that will work last summer when we peeled off like -- they needed like eight senators, republican senators, and got 18 or something like that including mitch mcconnell. we heard from west virginia and joni ernst on the initial, the last people [ inaudible ] who switched because they said the calls coming to their office were six to one or ten to one, republicans in gun states were telling them you have to do something. you have to do this. when republicans's own voters turn on them which is finally

happening, that's i think the inflection point. we got one. but that seemed impossible a year or two ago. and, you know, the research i did on the polling before that, the main pollster for both told me before that, she picked up something in the polling last previous year or two, people were starting to see congress as the bad guy. people [ inaudible ] including the 85% felt like it's the nra stopping it, the nra is the bad guy doing this. they started feeling like, well the nra isn't in congress. it's also our people in congress. that's a repeat change and somebody like shelly who -- i'm sorry -- never would have voted for something like this did because she came back and said, wow. the political winds have shifted. mitch mcconnell went to his caucus after she did a poll to show support for it and said

even among gun owners, it's overwhelming he warned them we're going to lose the suburbs if we don't start doing something on guns and then personally voted for it. that was unthinkable. so that's the road to victory is continuing to peel off those people and frankly, we need republican voters, we need conservative voters in gun states, they are the key to put the most pressure on their senators and congress people. >> claire, i would love your thoughts as a former senator on everything dave is saying about the politics shifting in the last 12 to 24 months as well as a mom and grandma today. >> yeah. first of all, you can win in red states, in purple states advocating gun safety. nra came after me in every election and yes, i was defeated in my last election, but i won a lot of elections going toe to toe with the nra. second thing is, nicole, run on

guns in the suburbs. run on guns. run on military-style weaponry, slaughtering our children sitting in classrooms. and, you know, we like to talk about the culture wars of the republicans. they want to go after drag shows. we want to go after high-capacity magazines that are designed for only one purpose, to kill as many people on a battlefield as possible in a short a period of time as possible. we have no reason allowing anyone to buy a high-capacity magazine without -- frankly at all. they should be banned along with the assault-style weapons. so run on guns, especially in suburban areas. i think there has been a fear for so long in purple and red states that you can't talk about guns, that you can't run on that. this is our culture issue.

this is our issue. that and women's reproductive freedom. 2024 ought to be the year that the democrats run on guns. >> amen. clint, i want to bring you in on this and come back to nashville, tennessee, and show you what one resident thought was happening as this unfolded today. >> i thought maybe it was a bomb threat. and then there was so many police cars and then ambulances started coming away from the school and that's when i heard it was a school shooting and -- it's the worst. >> there are no words, but every week in america, a couple times a week, as dave accurately points out, we have to come up with the words and we start this show trying to find the words to describe how this is how we decide to live.

some -- somewhere in our country, just about every week, drop-off is the last time you see your third, fourth, fifth or second grader. >> it's a remarkable transition we went interest worrying about a foreign terrorist group attacking a monument or capitol trying to do some overseas terrorist act to most of our concerns are about somebody in our local community showing up with a gun at a school, work place or grocery store and committing mass violence. the threat picture as we would say is changed dramatically. when you look at two factors involved in this, it's the frequency and the impact of each of these attacks. looking at the frequency of these, this is greater in scale that anyone we've seen in any period of american history in terms of number of these thanks occur. when we start to look at why, it is a range of factors. some of these are tied to some

sort of ideological motivation, but many are not. many are grievances that individuals hold against other people and that comes down to the impact. why don't we see this in other countries? other countries don't assault rifles delivered directly to the hands of a shooter at nearly a moment's notice with no curbs on them. when you put those two together we can point to social media and ideologies but the reason so many individuals die in this country due to gun violence is because of the access to weapons. the same weapon that i was given 30 years ago for the first time we carried around without any ammunition in it, just think about that, now anyone can go access that weapon, gain ammunition to it in almost an instant depending on where they are nist country and use it against any target they use. the landscape has changed so dramatically and to think that we would continue to let this go, there's lots of things we

can do to reduce the impact with regard to assault weapons and training and licensing and insurance, it could be red flag laws in terms of identifying people we think are at risk and then in terms of the frequency, how did we become a country where so many people, particularly young people, but people of all different types as we learn today, have a proclivity to violence. why are we killing our own citizens in this country and that takes a broader examination to see how we can get more out in front of this. we would never have tolerated this from al qaeda or isis supporters 10 or 20 years ago but tolerate it every day in many circumstances. >> as you're talking about the threat from al qaeda and foreign terrorism, i remember back to what felt like a statement of unity when people wore american flags in the months and years after september 11th and some still do, but there's a prominent and vocal group of republicans, i want to get their names right, especially today,

congressman george santos, congresswoman anna paw lena luna, and congressman andrew clyde who instead of wearing any other pin, wore a picture of an ar-15 on all their lapels, where a flag might have once sat in the months and years after september 11th, for a normal person whose salary is paid by the united states taxpayer, a pin with the replica of an ar-15 sits on their lapels. what does that do in terms of the culture and the fetishizing and the celebration and the demand for an ar-15 style weapon, clint? >> yeah. it's a strange militarization of our culture, and i always remember back i think to general mcchrystal commenting at one point being one of the first people out there saying weapons of war don't need to be on our streets. i think it's just a bigger issue of what on earth are these

weapons for, when i learned for the very first time how to use the weapon it was not a semiautomatic machine gun. it was not something that had extended magazines with a large clip. it wasn't something that had a bump stock on it. these are weapons of war. also just begs the question, where would this stop in terms of the escalation of weaponry provided to people with no training, no certification, no licensing, no responsibility, for these weapons? it is a weird sort of fetish around these weapons and why would we continue to endorse and condone that in our country, to one group above all others, children. we've seen this go back to newtown and to today you see these weapons tend to show up where we have mass casualty events. the people that are killed it is minorities, it is groups of faith, children in their schools, it just is a bizarre

sacrifice we've chosen to make to have this one weapon so everyone can have it as a quick access. there's no reason for it. >> i want to follow up on something clint said. before today 56 children from newborn to 11 have died so far this year in 2023. it's not even april in mass shootings. tragically, we can add three to those numbers, so they rise to 59. i'm not sure if you saw this, here's what dr. jill biden, the first lady, had to say to your community today. >> we just learned about another shooting in tennessee, a school shooting, and i am truly without words. our children deserve better.

and we stand all of us, we stand with nashville in prayer. >> senator, i know that's not the solution, but i think that is where a lot of people who are doing the work as well to change our policies and to change the people who hold elected office, where a lot of people's hearts are today. if there's anything that you want to say on behalf of the families whose lives changed forever long after we're starting our broadcast with this story, they will be absent, one of their children, forever, and if there's anything you want to say on behalf of those families i want to give you the last word. >> thank you. and thanks for the first lady for her words. you know, i was just with these families and i knew before they knew they were about to find out their child was gone from them

forever. and yes, of course, this is a time when we have to support these families who have just lost their child, it's insane, and it shouldn't be happening. and so for today, and for the next few days, let's support them, but like your other wonderful guests have said, after that, let's get to work and start to actually enact some common sense gun reform. it's far past time, and i run bills every year to address this, and we spend more time worrying about how drag shows might be hurting our children than about these sorts of events. >> indeed we do. this is who we are. senator heidi campbell thank you for starting us off. clint watt thank you. dave cullen, always a privilege to talk to you. thank you. claire sticks around. when we come back we'll turn to the news out of the grand jury that is investigating the twice impeached ex-president in new

york. they reportedly heard from a witness as trump and his allies in the republican party steps up their attacks and threats on manhattan's district attorney alvin bragg. later in the program the ex-president's glorification of the capitol insurrection in of all places waco, texas 30 years after a deadly siege that became a rallying cry for domestic extremists, including some of trump's closest advisors. all those stories an more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. smell , make sure you have downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters. you're doing business in an app driven, multi-cloud world. that's why you choose vmware. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open.

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. my question to you, would

potentially violence be just final, january 6th violence? >> i will say this. no, i don't like violence, and i'm not for violence at all. but a lot of people are upset and they rigged an election, they stole an election, spied on my campaign. they did many bad things. they did a fake dossier. mueller was bad news. >> where do you go from here? >> i have no idea what's going to happen, but i can tell you they have no case, so i think the case is -- i think they've already dropped the case. >> update from earth four with the delusional twice impeached ex-president hangs out. delusional thinking on his part because the stormy daniels hush money case had been dropped, why did the grand jury conduct an interview this afternoon. late last hour nbc news confirmed it was one david

pecker, that's his name, the publisher or former publisher of the national inquirer interviewed by the grand jury today, that would make it his second appearance in front of this grand jury based on the late breaking development alone, clearly whether the twice impeacheded ex-president likes it or not the work of manhattan district attorney alvin bragg continues and the american people prepare for a possible indictment, it appears the majority of them agree that investigations are all above board and necessary. a brand new poll leased by npr-pbs news hour reveals 56% of all investigations into the, ex-president, including doj's, are fair. just 41% they're a witch hunt. where have they heard that? joining us katie fang, host of "the katie fang show" and "new

york times" reporter katie benner is back, tim miller is here, former rnc spokesman writer at large from the bulwark. they are msnbc contributors. claire is still with us. katie, let me start with you. tell us what you think is going on? we're still reading tea leaves. this is a secret process. remind everyone who david pecker is one of the most riveting characters in this season of the trump folies if you will. why would he have been there today? >> david pecker was the former publisher of the national enquirer. his name and dylan howard, the editor, they were heavily involved in the negotiations with the stormy daniels and then lawyer davidson for the hush money payment. what's interesting is that this is the second time that david pecker has appeared in front of the grand jury and david pecker and dylan howard insisted that michael cohen deal in the negotiations.

they themselves did the negotiations. they dispatched michael cohen to do so and, in fact, from what we know, michael cohen was pressured by dylan howard as well as david pecker to hurry up and get the deal done. why? because donald trump wanted the deal done. to have him appear twice some people may get concerned if you are really wanting a prosecution of donald trump you might say did the grand jury need to hear again interest david pecker and the answer is yes. and the reason why, we did have robert costello appear last week who tried to take down michael cohen's credibility when he appeared in front of the grand jury and dotting the is and crossing the ts. it's pretty much when you have to go back and watch season one of a show and want to get back to the current season of a show that's what's happening. seeing the same players show up, but we should expect an indictment shortly. >> what's interesting to me when you why listen to the twice impeached ex-president do whatever he's doing and laying the foundation for violence or

talking about on the one hand he doesn't like it when his own track record suggests he's very enthusiastic about violence, specifically and generally, as well as the findings of his own justice department, when bill barr ran it, fdny found that donald trump, quote, coordinated and, quote, directed hush money payment through michael cohen to stormy daniels when he was president. really all that bragg is doing is matching an investigation already done and dusted by fdny when trump was president. is this still largely a political sflaigs. >> i think the investigators it's whether or not they can use the evidence they have to bring the case to a jury and get a conviction. i don't think there's a lot of people arguing about the facts. it's whether or not they can show the facts amount to a crime. now when you talk about what donald trump has done here, you know, for him this is always political and he's a master of

using investigations to his advantage. now what makes this one different is if it ends in an indictment this will be a campaign up ending historic moment and interesting to see if he can continue to use something like that to his advantage. one thing to be investigated and to say this is a witch hunt and say there's nothing there, it's another thing to be faced with the prospect of a grand jury that has said no, we actually think that the preponderance of evidence is powerful enough this should go forward and a jury should, you know, jury of donald trump's peers should decide whether or not he should go to jail. >> katie, what is the -- i went back and read michael cohen's sentencing memo and geoffrey berman's book he writes how involved doj was the use of donald trump's name he was described as individual one. he's an unindicted named conspirto in a hush money scheme viewed in violation of law.

was that ever introduced? >> you have omissions or statements made by witnesses or parties, that can be used. sometimes they face a challenge in terms of it being hearsay. the admissibility is determined when looking at each case. what's important in this instance as katie has noted you have a federal case different than the state case but there was a lot of criticism of alvin bragg and we talk about prosecutorial discretion and the ability to exercise your judgment as a prosecutor. that is what alvin bragg has done and continues to do. he faced an insurmountable amount of criticism because he would not do what cyrus vance office didn't do, which is do the letitia james prosecution, et cetera. mark pom mer rants had criticism whether there would be a prosecution of donald trump. bragg is not trying to race across the finish line in this instance. if that were the case you would have seen an indictment by now. you see david pecker appearing

today signifies the grand jury is hearing, sew lid fig the testimony and evidence they have, but again, you can use that evidence that was in that federal case and everybody points to that, specifically donald trump, not everybody, trump points to that to say i was exonerated, but he's wrong because michael cohen went to federal prison for it and he's the only person who has done time relating to this hush payment scandal. >> i mean, listen, alvin bragg is the tallest peak here, katie. i wonder if you have any understanding of what happened at doj after fdny found donald trump to have directed and coordinated a hush money scheme that benefitted his candidacy, a federal crime. john edwards, the evidence softer and ended john edwards' career. what is the final disposition of what the merrick garland justice department had to say about the crimes as described and ascribed to individual one? >> well i would say keep in mind before the merrick garland

justice department there was a bill barr justice department, even though that's how donald trump was described, that department top to bottom believed you could not indict a sitting president. even though that's how he was described there was never going to be an indict for that activity. you move on what we see here, it is really everything related to donald trump has now been given over to a special counsel. it's not clear that that was ever really revived. it seems to have withered and died on the vine and it's become, you know, the focus of local prosecutors in new york. it's to be seen. i would be surprised to see if jack smith has decided to look into this or to probe this at all. it seems they really want to go forward with the two big issues, one being january 6th and whether or not the former president had a role that could be prosecuted and, of course, his treatments of documents and whether or not he was investigating the federal

investigation into retrieving those papers. >> claire, i'm sure katie is correct, but that is a political decision. crimes were committed and described and ascribed to donald j. trump while president and we know now, thanks to robert f. mueller, a sitting president can't be indicted. there was the memo that guided all the decisions. nonetheless, trump didn't have -- with stormy daniels and his campaign and michael cohen didn't benefit from the act participate in it. the threatening of alvin bragg is created in some ways created by the vacuum that investigated all the conducts that examined. were into alvin bragg's grand jury here, i believe they were interrogated or questioned by the federal government in which they served and i know it didn't lead to an indictment but certainly is a corroborating set of evidence and conclusions. what do you make of the fact

that never was done there? >> well, there's a chasm that occurred when donald trump left office before this special prosecutor was appointed, and i know merrick garland [ inaudible ] behind the veil of well, he wasn't a declared candidate yet and that's why i appointed a special prosecutor, but it wasn't like all of this wasn't predictable from the moment that merrick garland became attorney general, i can understand nothing happening until he was confirmed but once confirmed it's hard to not really get busy and look at all of the facts that were screaming from the mountaintops about what this guy did paying off porn stars to obstructing investigations, to trying to control the justice department, to trying to overturn an election, to try to put forward fake electors, to true toy call

the secretary of state and fabricate votes. all of these facts were swirling for months after months after months, so i will never have a good explanation why the federal government sat on its hands as long as it did. make no mistake about it, if congress continues, if the republican clown show in congress, continues to try to impede local prosecutors doing their job, it could have huge ramifications to the rule of law in this country. that maybe concerns me the most right now, is the fooling around that mccarthy and jordan and comber and all these guys are doing to try to mess with the -- what has by sacred sovereign power of the local prosecutor to enforce state law. >> listen, i'm not going to dignify it by playing it but comber was on cnn, i just don't want any conversations about what alvin bragg may or may not be doing to ever be separated

from the investigation that was be conducted by bill barr's justice department that concluded that donald trump directed and coordinated a hush money scheme that benefitted his own campaign. bill barr's doj, fdny specifically found donald trump to have committed campaign finance allegations. if alvin bragg brings an indictment he will be the second prosecutor not the first. >> this is the key point, right. it's that donald trump was the person of interest here. he was the person that did the crime initially. he was the person that the crime benefitted that michael cohen went to prison for. it's true in the bragg case and it's true in all of the january 6th cases that claire was discussing. i think there's this righteous, rightful, and righteous, frustration a lot of us have the idea that there have been other

people held accountable, lower level people in the stormy daniels' case and the pan na plea of january 6th insurrection cases for the crimes that only happened because of donald trump. had donald trump never had sex with stormy daniels michael cohen wouldn't have gone to jail. if donald trump hadn't tried to steal the election there wouldn't be people storming the capitol on january 6s. donald trump was the criminal across all these instances and these guys trying to change -- muddy the waters and change the focus from this, are just trying to, you know, make that fact, you know, less crystal clear. >> and we don't ever live in a vacuum where trump supporters who are willing to storm the capitol, willing to chant "hang my pence" to a degree at least mike pence thought they were serious, i never saw anyone run down those stairs as quickly as he and his family did, but there are hideous things targeting

alvin bragg and all alvin bragg did was conduct an investigation after fdny, after cy vance, mark pomerantz matching their conclusion. i think there is this dissonance between what trump likes to say and likes to target democrats, but his own doem found the same crimes to be committed. we need to sneak in a break. there's much more to get to because when it's trump and investigations, it's never ending. don't go anywhere. when it comes to reducing sugar in your family's diet, the more choices, the better. that's why america's beverage companies are working together to deliver more great tasting options

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you have an obligation to denounce the rhetoric and what has happened to -- to alvin bragg. if we had a prayer rally, this man and his family -- >> someone -- >> could be under serious threat -- >> what someone sent to alvin bragg has nothing to do with donald trump. >> how do you know? >> because donald trump would have nothing to do with that. >> wrote death and destruction. he announced he was going to be indicted tuesday. he -- >> well that came from leaks -- >> he was told -- >> wait. let me explain -- >> there was a picture with a bat that someone had put together. >> right. >> that he reposted, did he not? >> so how -- >> the witness answer the question. >> about to answer the question. >> did he repost. >> however ill-advised that post was -- >> does that mean that he didn't repost it? >> apparently he reposted it but

took it down when he realized what was in that photo. >> i stabbed you in the back but took the knife out? >> that's trump attorney joe tacopina with al sharpton on the threats made by his client donald trump against alvin bragg. we're back with katie fans, katie and tim miller and claire mccaskill. this is the environment that seems to have been on the mind of doj as they've waited very cautiously into their investigations into donald trump and circled with the last two years any sense of how they're dealing with actual threats against a sitting prosecutor like alvin e1 of new york there's heightened security around alvin bragg. certainly people are cognizant of the fact violence could occur if donald trump is indicted. i think one of the things wee1 spoke about in the previous segment and you e1know-k sort o what we're bringing up here around violence to alvin bragg

is what happens when people in positions of authority and power continue to for whatever reason say we don't really want to address this egregious behavior by donald trump. so for example, in the case ofe stormy daniels and the manhattan prosecutor's office saying but is this really the case we really want to bring against ae former president? if it feels so tawdry, maybe we should wait for something more serious. we sa■■1 officials at at the sessions and under bill barrt( saying do we really want to take on in behavior by donald trump, this incursion on, you know, our territorye1 and our turf? well, that just makes things worse. and suddenly you get this discussion in january about overthrowing the department itself. and then you have january 6fá break out. so i think this is what happens when people whoe1 have the authority, including republicans, they really have probably the most power here, and they did denounce donald trump on january 6th even if they walked it back. when you don't see people[na wi influence actually push back on what donald

leaves this lane open for him to act in this way and for him to do so seemingly with impunity. >> yeah, another way to describe it is okappeasement. the republicans have appeased criminal behavior even while acknowledging privately and increasingly publicly that it is in many instances criminal. it has brought us to this brazen place where he launches his campaignxd in waco. lead i]cto? what doesok appeasement lead çó? more violence. you know, that's a lesson of history. ò] uip lesson we'veq seen now. and how these guy/■ continue to appease him after we saw the violence of january 6th, afterç their lives were threatened by the violence of january 6th is something that just really is incomprehensible. like i understand they're doing it for their political survival but it's still incomprehensible that level of okcowardice. and here we are, we're going through all of this again right now. donald trump is down in waco anó we're in groundhog day.

these guys are burying their they're not commenting about it. they're not talking about it, they're not denouncing it. and donald trump is out there makinge1 imminent threats again alvin bragg, against the others that arejf investigating him, o his fake social media account, ande1 he's making them at that rally in waco, talking about retribution, bleeding about death ande1 destruction.e1 he's saying it with vaughn hillyard who correctl1 confronted about this on the plane, he said he wouldn't -- i'm not for it but if people are madt( people are mad. he's doing the same exact thing to stand back and stand bylp an yet these guys do nothing. and so they shouldn't be surprised when they get the same result, which is the threat and hopefully not but a very real possibility of more violence. >> i love a day when timfá mill calls me a dog with a bone. highest compliu-u ever. katie phang, it's a pleasure to have you at the table. katie benner, it's a plew[q to have you back on our airwaves.

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hi again, everybody. 5:00 in new york. it's 4:00 p.m. in nashville, tennessee. any minute we're expecting a news conference on that horrific, tragic shooting that happened earlier today. three very young children and three adults were murdered when police say a 28-year-old woman opened fire and started shooting at a school. the covenant school, an elementary school, it teaches kids from preschool age through sixth grade. police are investigating how the shooter got into the school in

the first place as well as her motive. but more importantly the names of the victims of this latest mass shooting to take place at a school have just been released and here are those victims. evelyn daichhouse, hally scruggs and william kenney all died today. they were 9 years old. cynthia peak, 61 years old. catherine koontz, who's 60 years old, and mike hill, who's 61 years old, also died today. the 9-year-olds, all they did was get up and go to school. the three adults likely got up and went to work. and tonight their families are grieving this horrific loss. this afternoon president joe biden doing what has become an all too frequent ritual of the american presidency, addressing another tragedy of mass gun violence in america and calling for change. >> it's just -- it's sick. you know, we're still gathering the facts of what happened and

why. and we do know that as of now there are a number of people who are not -- did not make it, including children. it's heartbreaking, a family's worst nightmare. and i want to commend the police who responded incredibly swiftly, within minutes to end the danger. we're monitoring this situation really closely. ben, as you know. and we have to do more to stop gun violence. i call on congress again to pass my assault weapons ban. it's about time that we begin to make some more progress. >> that's where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. former top official in the justice department's national security division and a new msnbc analyst mary mccord is here. also joining us frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence. our friend eddie glaude is here. he's the chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university. and with us at the table our good friend john heilemann, host and executive producer of

showtime's "the circus," and executive editor of "the recount." mary mccord, it is unbearable to read the ages of the three youngest victims today. they were 9. which means that evelyn and halle and william probably got up and went to third grade today and they were shot and killed in america's latest mass shooting. what can we do at this point to stop this? >> the numbers are just staggering. one of the unique things about this shooting is the shooter was a female. and according to the violence project only four of over 170 mass shooters since 1966 have been women. but the mass shootings just keep escalating. you know, from our first double-digit mass shooting. and happily, this one is not a double-digit mass shooting. but if the shooter hadn't been killed it very well might have been, if the police hadn't gotten there as quickly as they did. until 1949 we didn't have any

double-digit mass shootings. then for almost four decades we only had four. in '21-22 we had two years alone four double-digit mass shootings. and if you count all mass shootings, four or more people killed or injured, not including the shooter, we had about two a day resulting in 1,200 deaths. and a not insignificant number of those deaths have been children in schools. yet no matter what we do it seems the assault style rifles that are used in the majority of these shootings, high capacity magazines used in almost every single one of these shootings, no matter what we do these remain popular, they remain on the market and the manufacturers still face no liability. so you know, we are failing in trying to prevent this type of gun violence including for our most vulnerable victims like the children who were killed today. >> and frank, it's not just that we don't do anything.

there are at least three republican members of congress who celebrate these weapons mary's talking about, who wear ar-15 style pins on their lapels. we have something more than inaction. it's not a gridlock problem. it's an enthusiasm for the gun culture on the right. >> you're right. it's not -- it's worse than doing nothing. it's worse than being neutral on the issue. they actually fight to see these things happen. that's the bottom line. and look, you know, states have tried individually to do the right thing, but until we have a national law that impacts the ability to access assault-style weapons we're not going to get our hands around this problem. because the weakest link in the picture is the nearest state that allows you to purchase this.

and don't be surprised if this 28-year-old woman was lawfully in possession of these two assault-style rifles and the handgun. we don't know yet. but it wouldn't surprise me at all if she did the right thing, went through the background check. so the problem is no longer hey, we need to enforce the rules in place. yes, we do. of course. right? and we try to do that with an atf that is woefully understaffed. it is ludicrous to think that something like 3,000 special agents are going to cover the nation when we have more guns than people and they're going to enforce existing law. but we're beyond enforcing existing law. we need change and we need it now. and we need people to vote for that change. and as mary said, we need accountability for manufacturers. it needs to hurt them. we need to bring pain to the people who produce the weapons of mass destruction.

and now, yes, is it an interesting statistic amongst this awful tragic human toll to say boy, we have a female shooter? yes, it's noteworthy for those of us who study and research this, that in the last 40 years we've had somewhere like three, four, or five female shooters, depending how you define a mass shooting. by the definition of four or more dead people we've had only three female shooters in the last 40 years or so. so what does that mean? it means that this now has penetrated gender. this is bigger than gender. we have to stop saying this is entirely a male problem or toxic masculinity or what have you. this is a societal problem. and now the latest all right i've seen from nbc is the police are saying this woman was previously a student at this elementary school. wow. so we can talk for an hour about grievances and baggage and

carrying elementary school baggage to you're 28? we don't know what this is going to play out to but that goes to mental health and warning signs and indicators. and yes, my last thought in this for the moment, we're on tv now. i've been on earlier with nbc and lester holt saying yeah, we do acknowledge and laud the police department who gets it right and engages and goes in. absolutely, they are heroes. and there would have been more death. but i'm tired of getting on television and saying thank god there weren't more dead people, boy, it's only x number of victims. that's horrible for us to be the assessor of that in that manner. we need to go on tv and say there need be no more victims in america of gun violence. >> because, eddie, the lives and the parents of evelyn dieckhaus, who was 9 and hallie scruggs, who was 9, and william kinney, who was 9, their lives are over. over. changed forever at a minimum.

cynthia peak's family. katherine koonce's family and mike hill's family. ages 61, 60 and 61. those families, those universes shattered forever. long after we're starting our broadcast with the story of today's deadly mass shooting at a school. >> yeah. every breath they take from now on will be smothered in grief. you know? i've been trying to figure this out. and you know, because everything sounds so damn familiar. and you know, i think everything frank said is right. everything mary said is right. but you know, i want to -- i think something about us is broken and we won't acknowledge it. it's not just simply about the guns. it's about us. the guns of course make it worse. but we're broken. and it's not just simply those who have ar-15s on their lapels, nicolle. it's the fact that we don't fight like hell against them.

you know, it's like we just -- i mean, three babies. i couldn't imagine langston at 9 not coming home from school. i couldn't imagine that. and the fact that we don't fight like hell, me and you, every -- like we go through this and then we say what we say and then we go back to our lives and they have to breathe grief every day again. it's like we're not fighting for the kind of world we want. and these monsters who are so selfish around their guns, right? continue to allow for the condition that will take a hallie, a william, take these three babies away from us. i'm sorry, i'm just trying to process it. it doesn't -- it goes beyond just simply the guns. it goes to us. we're broken because it keeps happening over and over again.

>> i don't know what else to say other than what eddie just articulated. i mean, because the statistics as mary and frank detailed them are right in front of our face. and they're in front of our face before we come to work and switch everything that we're going to talk about. you know, you weren't booked to talk about the latest school shooting and three 9-year-olds who lost their lives because they went to third grade today. but here we are. >> yeah. i mean, i don't have -- i literally have no wisdom on this tomic. i feel like everybody else we all -- this happens all the time. you have to be ready to talk about a school shooting if you're ever going to be on television because it can happen pretty much any moment. i don't have any wisdom about it. i think -- you know, i was at waco this weekend. we're going to talk about that a little later. but you know, there are a lot of things if you walk around in the area where they're selling the merch, the right-wing merch there, there are a lot of things that are disturbing. among the many things that are disturbing about that -- about things in that culture one of

them is the thing you talked about earlier, which is the celebration of guns, so many t-shirts that say things like "not vaccinated" and then a picture of an ar-15. "fully protected." just everywhere, man. there's so many of these celebratory things. i had a kid -- i couldn't say what his age was but he was not 18. probably i think -- we didn't put him on camera because he was too young. might have been 11. who wanted to show me his t-shirt. and he had a whole long -- a whole long screed on the back of the t-shirt, printed t-shirt, a thing that was sold in mass quantities that was about protecting the second amendment and how essentially it was a long political screed that basically said if we don't all have our guns america won't be america anymore. he's about 12. and he was very proud. he wanted me to read it. look at the back of my t-shirt. you know. i don't blame that kid. but that's -- there's a culture out there. obviously we know the story of what happened at waco. how did waco start? waco started because david koresh was building machine guns out of ar-15s. taking semi-automatic weapons, making them machine guns.

and it was when atf saw evidence of that and the fact that david koresh was raping young girls that they decided to try to make a move on waco and that's what started the whole 51-day siege. and those people are heroes now on the right. david koresh. and the assault -- the waco -- the branch davidians are now, you know -- we'll talk about this more later. but that's how deep it goes. and it's not new. the only other thing i'll say is i agree eddie -- some parts of the culture are obviously broken. and it's not all about policy. but i always come back to this thing. we live on this global community here in 2023, and there's no other country in the world that has this problem. are we all -- i mean, america is unique but are we really ready to say america is broken and france, germany, england, china, india, name your country, just stick in industrialized western europe. sweden, denmark, belgium, all of them they're not broken.

we're the broken ones. they're not broken. i think there's unique characteristics to american culture but it's also they have sane gun laws. we do not. and if you want to try to explain why they don't have mass shootings in those places, you have to point to policy. >> there's no other difference. >> i mean, there are some other differences. there are differences with belgians. but not so fundamental that america is broken and belgium is not. i'm not ready to accept that. i think the difference is that the policies are whack here and they are sane in those other places. >> it's the indifference. it's the indifference to, you know, we come on the news and announce the names of three 9-year-olds who lost their lives today at school. >> and the policies don't change. >> correct. we are right now waiting for an update from local officials in nashville, tennessee. they're about to start a news conference. those are the microphones on the left side of your screen. if we rudely interrupt any of our guests, it's because it started and we don't want to miss it. but right now joining our conversation texas state senator

ronald gutierrez. he's been advocating for a lot of what we're talking about, gun safety legislation to stop what has become tragically a new normal, the prevalence of mass shootings at schools. thank you so much for being here with us. >> thank you, nicolle. thank you. >> what goes through your mind when you see -- i think we all hear of this in a similar way. most of us get to our phones before we get to our tvs these days. and you're never prepared for the dread and the gut punch, whether you have kids or not, of seeing that an elementary school's been targeted. >> yeah. as you know, i represent the uvalde area in texas. first thing i did this morning when i heard of the news was i texted a group of families that i'm very close to and i asked them if they were okay and i called a couple of them. and they're not okay. and they are -- immediately the first thing that they can think of was we're going to try to get to tennessee so that we can try to talk to these families that

just lost their children. so that we can walk them through this pain. >> senator, can you -- >> i don't think -- yes, ma'am. >> can you stay with us and talk us out of this news conference that's just beginning? >> but let us love each other and support each other and hug each other. and pray for each other and pray for our families. but also let us praise our first responders. 14 minutes. 14 minutes. i believe under fire, running to gunfire. and then i want to thank the seamless response for federal and state authorities from our police and fire department. so this morning i was in boston to see my own son's sporting event and now i am overwhelmed at the thought of the loss of

these families. of the future lost by these children and their families. and the leading cause of kids' death now is guns and gunfire. and that is unacceptable. but i want to thank the fast response of our officers. guns are quick. they don't give you much time. so even in a remarkably fast response there was not enough time. and those guns stole precious lives from us today in nashville. and in this dark hour let us support each other. let us go and hug our children a little bit closer tonight. and thank you all for being here. and i want to ask chief drake to come and give us an update. >> thank you, mayor cooper. again, thank you all for being

here. just an update from today's press conference. we've identified the shooter as audrey hale, 28-year-old female that lived in the nashville area. we have investigations ongoing now at the residence on brightwood avenue. and we have made contact with the father that lived at that residence and are putting together more information. we've also determined that there were maps drawn of the school in detail, of surveillance, entry points, et cetera. we know and believe that entry was gained through shooting through one of the doors is how they actually got into the school. i want to take the time to at least say -- and i won't say the

victims' names. i'll let don say that. but out of the six victims, three adults, three of those were children. two of them were age 9. one was 8. about to be 9. all the families have been contacted. the victims' families have been contacted as well. my thoughts and prayers go out to the families. when we send our kids to school or to any place of safety, we expect them to live, learn, have fun and come back from that day, day's experience. we don't anticipate things like this. and i want to say thank you to our partners, to chief swann, to glenn funk, to our mayor for his support, to our federal partners. but also i want to say thank you to our first responders who got

there and immediately went in and addressed the threat of someone that had multiple rounds of ammunition, prepared for a confrontation with law enforcement, prepared to do more harm than was actually done, and we were able to stop the threat. and unfortunately, six victims. so my thoughts and prayers again, but the praise go to the men and women. as i've said before, we will not wait -- i was hoping this day would never, ever come here in this city. but we would never wait to make entry and to go in and to stop a threat, especially when it deals with our children. so thank you. just me. they're not saying anything. >> i'm going to go over the victims' names with you now. the three 9-year-olds who were killed, evelyn dieckhaus,

william kinney, hallie scruggs. three adults, mike hill, a custodian, age 61. cynthia peak, to my understanding a substitute teacher, age 61. and katherine koonce, age 60. as chief drake said, we have identified the active shooter as audrey elizabeth hale, age 28. we'll take just a few questions if you have any. >> do you believe she was a former student at the school? >> yes, we do. chief, you want to address that? >> our investigations tell us that she was a former student at the school. i don't know what grade she's attended or grades, but we do firmly believe she was a student there. >> did she identify as

transgender? >> she does identify as transgender, yes. >> is there any reason to believe the shooter first went to the church before going to the school? >> i can't give you that information. we know that the minute the calls came in we responded to the church, to the school. >> there were two officers that went in when they first got there -- [ inaudible ]. >> there was five officers that immediately went in and addressed. we have video that we're going to release. but you can see in the video, you can hear gunfire going on as they're in the school. they address the threat and take that threat down. >> and chief, what do we know about the weapons? >> so we know there were two ar style weapons, one a rifle, another was an ar style pistol and another was a handgun. we believe two of those may have been obtained legally locally

here. >> can you confirm that one of the adult victims, katherine koonce, was head of the school? >> was what? >> was head of the school? >> i don't know her exact capacity within the school but it was higher up in the echelon. >> were any of the children victims related to any of the school staff? >> unsure. i believe one may have been but i can't confirm that. >> does the shooter have any criminal history at all? >> no history at all. >> and no motive at this point, anything discovered in the apartment or house? >> no. we have a manifesto. we have some writings that we're going over that pertain to this day, the actual incident. we have a map drawn out of how this was all going to take place. there's right now a theory of -- that we may be able to talk about later but it's not confirmed and so we'll put that out as soon as we can. >> and chief, is there any reason to believe that.

[ inaudible ] -- >> i'm sorry, i didn't hear you. say that again. >> is there any reason to believe that how she identifies has any motive for targeting the school? >> we can give you that at a later time. there is some theory to that. we're investigating all the leads. and once we know exactly we'll let you know. >> was this a targeted attack? >> it was. >> [ inaudible ]. >> don't know any history of mental illness at this time but we are looking at that as the investigation is ongoing. >> does she identify as a transgender man or woman? >> woman. >> was this the only school that was targeted? >> it was the only school that was targeted. there was another location that was mentioned. but because of a threat assessment by the suspect, too much security, they decided not to. and that area was here in nashville. so we're continuing with that investigation as well. right now we believe it's a lone

assailant, and we don't anticipate any further damage at this time. but we're still investigating. >> the brightwood address, she lived there with her parents or -- >> yes. >> okay. >> okay. thank you. >> so the scene is going to be processed throughout the night, probably into tomorrow. this is an extensive scene. as you know, she entered the building, which is one structure, the church and the school are in one building. she entered on the lower floor. there were shots fired on the lower floor before she went to the upper level. and it was on the upper level where she was confronted by police and killed. so understand the scene processing will take place over at least two days, today and tomorrow. and we'll have more details for you including the release of

video, perhaps tonight but if not tonight certainly tomorrow. thank you. >> senator roland gutierrez, we cut you off before we were going into the -- some new information i just want to recap before i turn the floor back over to you. we learned that this was a 14-minute exchange of -- maybe not gunfire but confrontation with the shooter. five officers were involved. the shooter possessed two ar-style weapons and a handgun. at least some of those weapons were obtained legally. the officer there says that the shooter is trans and identifies as a woman. they also described some of what they understood to be the planning for today's attack, describing the school as being, quote, targeted and the mass shooting was a, quote, targeted

attack. maps were drawn of the school and the plan of attack. they also shared with the press there that there was a manifesto and other writings. there was a commitment to releasing some video of the shooting through one of the doors, shooting out one of the doors. the law enforcement officials also talking about some unconfirmed theories. there's a discrepancy as well on the ages. two of the young victims were 9. one of the young victims was 8, just shy of the 9th birthday. so senator gutierrez, the details seem to make it more tragic, more horrific, more real than even before if that was possible. >> it's unreal that we're doing this yet again, nicolle. we do this it seems almost every week in our nation. we're certainly a broken nation, but i think that what's broken is republican leaders in congress in washington and every

state legislature. tennessee like texas doesn't have extreme risk protective orders, doesn't have background check legislation, doesn't have age limit restrictions. an 18-year-old -- it wasn't the case today in tennessee but an 18-year-old could buy a weapon like this and commit all sorts of horrific acts. we've got to do something in our nation. there is one common denominator. there is mental health problems all over this country, as -- all over the world as one of your previous speakers suggested. but we have no gun laws. it's not to say that we have weak gun laws. our gun laws are so weak that a 12-year-old has a t-shirt that says i deserve to have my weapons of mass destruction, i deserve to have my ar-15. we have a giant problem in this country. and from here on out people are

going to have to think about every day that they send their little kids to school that this may be the last time because politicians in washington and in every legislature refuse to do anything. eric swalwell said it best. republicans choose the killers over the kids. they choose guns over the kids. we've got to do something. >> senator, what are the uvalde families saying to you today? i always think that this is something that never abates for a mom or a dad or any parent, even if your kids survive something that terrifying, that the terror is forever. and i wonder how tied they feel to this tragic loss in another american city today. >> they're the strongest people i've ever met in my life. i don't know that i could ever come to austin or go to

washington and advocate for change as much as they have been advocating for change. yet they keep coming. they don't want this to happen to another family. and yet here we are again. and they have to relive all of their trauma and all of the tragedy. you know, emmett till's mother was right when she wanted to see the world what the deep south had done to her little boy. i have seen hours and hours of video cam footage and i've seen what that gun can do to a little baby, to a 9 and a 10-year-old, an 11-year-old. america needs to wake up on this. we need common sense gun safety. we need at the federal level, we need an assault weapons ban. i mean, it's time. these things did not happen when we had the assault weapons ban. they just didn't. not to this pace. we sell 600,000 ar-15s in the united states every year. 68% of them, by the way, end up

going to mexico. the majority through texas. we've got real problems. and we've got to address this issue. and if we don't more and more little babies are going to die. i am pleading with every republican in the legislature here in texas as i am all over this country to open your eyes and do something here. open your eyes. >> a lot of people felt that if after newtown things didn't change that they might never change. others see flashes of hope in the fact that some republicans including mitch mcconnell came around and did something more than nothing for the first time in 30 years. people like fred guttenberg who lost his daughter jamie in the parkland shooting sees this president as someone committed to doing more. but obviously he can't act alone. where do you put your -- do you permit yourself to feel

optimistic that policies can change at the federal level? >> well, i've been very honest with my uvalde families and told them not to expect much out of a republican-controlled texas legislature. at least for the first time under joe biden we saw historic gun safety legislation in the safer communities act. but we have a long way to go. federal congress, for instance, can establish an age limit of 21 to have an assault rifle. quite frankly, it ought to be 25. we ought to not have them at all. but we have to have our federal legislatures begin to look at those issues, to look at extreme risk protective orders. just the gun show loophole in many states like in texas is so, so dangerous that we need to close that loophole. you can go into a gun show in texas, show your i.d., and that's it. you get a question whether you're a u.s. citizen or u.s. resident and have you ever been convicted of a felony.

in other words, if you're not buying from a federally licensed dealer you walk out with an ar-15 without so much as a single background check, without so much as a single call to anybody. the atf isn't even part of that formula. we have to do things that make sense in this space. we can still have the second amendment protections and still regulate guns. we're allowed to do that. and we can do that. we should. >> texas state senator roland gutierrez, who represents the uvalde families. thank you very much for spending time with us today. i imagine it's a difficult story and a difficult conversation. but we are grateful. >> yes, ma'am. thank you so much. >> frank, i'm coming back to you on some of the new information we learned from this briefing. officials there very forthcoming. we learned that the altercation, the incident took 14 minutes. five officers were involved. the shooter had two

assault-style weapons and one handgun. some of those weapons were obtained legally. maps were drawn of the school and a plan of attack. he also mentioned some manifestos and writings and other things that we would be gaining access to soon. very forthcoming in terms of what they know now and what they know but aren't quite ready to release. >> right. so we had just discussed, you and i, right prior to the press conference don't be surprised if we find out that these weapons were legally purchased. and the spokesperson said at least two of them were lawfully purchased. what does that tell us? it's not so much an enforcement problem we're dealing with. she may have complied perfectly with the laws. but rather it's a gun problem. it's a gun problem, as state senator gutierrez said. we've got to get our hands around this. and if it's incremental change and we're taking baby steps, understand while we're taking baby steps babies will be killed

like they were today in nashville. yes, from a law enforcement perspective, fantastic. we have a manifesto. she'll explain everything she was thinking. it may not make sense to a lot of people. likely not. we have premeditation, in cold blood. we have planning. we have allegedly sketches or maps, schematics of the school, and she shot -- we know now that she shot her way through a door, or into a door. so we've already answered a question. was she allowed in? was a door unlocked or open? no, apparently, if i heard correctly, she shot her way through that door. this is planning. this is planning. and boy, if she attended that school and it's an elementary school, let's assume she was 8. she's 28 now. 20 years of this. and it involved innocents. two 9-year-olds and an 8-year-old who had nothing to do with whatever grudge she had 20 years ago at that school.

>> so eddie, i'm back to you. and where you started. that we are broken. an 8-year-old and two 9-year-olds likely weren't even alive when the shooter attended the school. but they lost -- they were murdered today along with three -- at least one janitor and two educators or administrators at the school. and long after we're done talking about nashville, because they've moved on to somewhere else, buffalo or uvalde or parkland or newtown or montgomery park, whoever has the misfortune of coming next, these families will still be broken. they will have still stopped time today. this will be the beginning of something totally different that they've never known before. >> yeah. and they join the company of a whole host of other families as well, right? i was just thinking about the

shooter, the killer, thinking about how clinging to hate, we cling to it because we don't want to deal with our pain and it can make us monstrous. i'm also thinking about what john said. and i think our brokenness explains our policy failures. and i've got three things that come to mind, nicolle. greed, unbridled greed that overruns any notion of the public good. gun manufacturers. i'm thinking about selfishness. don't take away my guns even though these families are losing their babies, even though people are being shot with bump stocks and weapons of war, i still have the right to my gun. to be damned you're dead, selfishness. selfishness. the second. the third, indifference. well, it's not my baby. i'm safe where i am. and so when you combine greed, selfishness and indifference, democracy cannot survive. we're broken. and so we have to address the

cultural background as we address the policy issue. we've got to get the guns under control, but we've also got to get the fact that we are not committed to a notion of the public good. and why is that the case? why is that the case? i'm still trying to wrap my mind around it. >> me too. and it's the third one that scares me the most. indifference. i can talk to someone who disagrees with me passionately. but the blankness of indifference i think is what endangers all of us. all right. i need all of you to stick around. i need all of you for the next conversation. when we come back, we're going to shift gears. john heilemann actually brought us here already a little bit. we're of course going to talk about and share with you what and where the twice-impeached disgraced ex-president was over the weekend. now in a full embrace of the most dangerous, most violent elements of right-wing extremism. not just right now in america but in america's history. we'll tell you about it with our experts and friends next.

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trump said if he's indicted he said, quote, death and destruction will follow. can you imagine there will be death and destruction in the wake of trump getting indicted? >> no, i think that's hyperbole. not from our side. >> potential death and destruction would be in terms of his political career. that's the way i interpret it. >> now, some people look at that picture and they think that's threatening violence against a public official. when you see that picture what do you think? >> i think he sure has a sense of humor. >> huh. we're back with mary mccord, frank figliuzzi, eddie glaude and john heilemann. lucky for us all msnbc

contributors. you went to waco. >> those are the least alarming ones. the woman who thought she talked about trump was right to attack alvin bragg as a soros-backed animal because george soros is a jew, that was the one that struck me as most -- jumped out at me the most. it's also the case that all of them basically -- here's the consensus. one, the indictment is b.s. you know, he should be able to have sex with prostitutes -- with porn stars and whatever. and they all are under the impression that the statute of limitations has run out and there's no case. that's number one. number two, they all say peaceful protests, we're all for peaceful protests. but when you ask them about concerns because of january 6th they all say well, we weren't -- trump supporters weren't part of that. they're still really on that was antifa and blm, that whole thing was a false -- everything bad that happened at the capitol has nothing to do with us. we maga people would never do that. that's all because of the left-wing instigators, infiltrators got in. >> how do they explain steward

rhodes and enrique tarrio? >> they're just on the talking point which are like we are peaceful, we will protest for trump, we will protest peacefully, this is b.s., it's all political. oh, also bill clinton never got arrested. i heard that down there too. you know, the thing about this rally, it was a very -- at the end of a week where trump -- particularly when he announced they were doing this at waco because of some of the history we talked about before, we'll talk about it more, it was disturbing that they were having it at waco. and donald trump how much does he know the history of waco? i don't know. but roger stone. we were talking about this off air. dedicated a book to the branch davidians. a lot of people around -- guys like steve bannon they know the history of waco, how totemic it is on the anti-government right. they knew the message they were sending. it's like when ronald reagan started his campaign in philadelphia mississippi and said i'm for states' rights. there are accents for politics but not coincidence. when you're going into a thing like this you're sending a message.

and it was even more pointed in the context of the week we've seen where he launched this public campaign of intimidation, racist, anti-semitic campaign of intimidation against bragg and the grand jurors. so we got there and you saw two things that were really striking. one, not gotten enough attention was trump in his speech when he stood up and said people ask me what the biggest threat to america is and they say is it russia, sir? is it china, sir? and i say no. it's people in the united states government. it's mitch mcconnell, nancy pelosi, chuck schumer, joe biden, the department of justice and their henchmen in the d.a.'s offices and the attorney generals. that was like a very straight up kind of like -- and then puts it in apocalyptic terms. they are -- they are destroying america. they are the risk. not putin, not china, none of that. these american government officials including mitch mcconnell in my party, they need to go. and this apocalyptic last battle thing of 2024 is the final battle. it's this very david koreshian final battle -- like the language is very apocalyptic.

the other thing was in standing up and doing the j6 choir, which is the song that's now a phenomenon on the right of the political prisoners, as they call them, the insurrectionists who are in jail, and trump standing up with his hand over his heart listening to these prisoners, these insurrectionists singing the national anthem. and of course that song includes him doing -- he lent his voice to him doing the pledge of allegiance. which is really the most overt effort on trump's part to say not like january 6th wasn't as bad as you think. january 6th was a glorious day in american history, these were patriots, they were doing the right thing, they were peaceful, you've been lied to. he is embracing in that song, number one on itunes as he points out, he's bracing the counternarrative full on. and we could talk about the roots of that in waco and all the other stuff. but it's like i'm -- he's pro insurrectionist now. he's right out there saying it right there on stage playing that song. that was a very chilling moment. >> well, let's not disaggregate

this. let's do that right now. i wasn't aware until i really read in on waco that roger stone, dedicated his book about the clintons to the branch davidians. alex jones, one of the co-conspirators in the insurrection, rose to infamy in the ashes of waco. we just talk about trump's orbit's ties to waco. >> alex jones was a nobody on austin radio before waco happened. you know, when waco happened the most -- the story that people know i think is timothy mcveigh was there on the side of the road passing out anti-government literature -- >> during the -- >> during the standoff between the fbi and the branch davidians as people probably know, david koresh and the branch davidians when the fbi finally tried to break in after 51 days they lit their own compound on fire. in the end i think 82 total, 75, 76 died that day. 25 or so children. in a self-imposed fire that they set off. i will tell you the right there tell you that they didn't set those fires off, the fbi set the

fire, although there's compelling evidence to claim the contrary. out of that two years later timothy macovei, april 19th, 1995, blows up the alfred p. murrah building, 100 and whatever it was people killed in that. and when asked why he did what he did he said waco started this war. and that became for the patriot movement, for the michigan militia back in the '90s, now for the oath keepers and the proud boys, they all say that waco is the -- ruby ridge was kind of the prologue, waco was the moment that the patriots all realized that american government was tyrannical and was turning its force against them and they needed to do something about it. and the birth of everything we've seen in the alt right, far right -- you know, the stuff that led to the insurrection on january 6th, it all goes back to waco in some sense. it really is in donald trump's world, that part of donald trump's world, everybody knows that history and that word waco is not tragic, it's a spark. it's a totemic kind of like

turning point for like this is when we got the clarity that we needed that the government is the enemy. >> mary mccord, we waste too much time wondering if donald trump -- because he seems like such a moron -- knows any of this. it's irrelevant. because the domestic terrorists know all of this history. so i'm going to skip past that question and ask you if the fbi -- and he we have to mention merrick garland of course, who prosecuted timothy mcveigh in oklahoma city. i mean, is the fbi at the national security division level on a footing to protect the country from whatever is being stirred up in the dve space? >> well, i think it's a real challenge because they certainly know of many of the threats. i that sometimes their own internal policies blind them somewhat to recognizing and intaking all of the information that is out there, including information that ise1 collected■ private researchers showing trends towards extremism.

the fbi really stronglyfá the pendulum swung post-cointel pro in their concern ab"-á■ doing anything they could be criticized for infringing on first amendment rights. i think sometimes they have taken that so far that they actually sortjf of willfully bld themselves from taking in the information that they need to bq able to prepare for some of the threats. but even assuming perfect information that they are able to get through their own sources and through those who willingly provide it to them, we have lone actors who will always be difficult to prevent, and, i know, that's -- that particularly is the case when you have all of the things we have been talking about today. we have a proliferation of guns in the country. 9 actually hijacking patich, the flag, "the star-spangled banner" as a song, byñi extremists who

cloak themselves in constitutional rights. and, you know, they are wrong about so many of the és that many of the they hang their hat on. we talked to an -- in an earlier segment with the second amendment. the supreme court recently ruled in a major ruling about the second amendment. nothing the supreme court said in the case decided last june suggested that youw3 have a rig to get an ar-15 assault-style weapon and kill people about it. it was about self-defense. the supreme court said over and over and over again that second amendment right for individuals to bear arms is about self-defenu: it's not about the -- and you don'tq need assault-style weapos self-defense. yet so this idea of rights, patriotism, this is really, you rights against rights. people have a right to send their children to school without

fear of violence, to engage in theire1 own first amendmentlp protectede1e1 activity, their o- governments without fear of violence. so these are allñr things that e going on out there as the fbi is trying to protect public safety and ám you know,e1 it's ae1 big agency they are trying their best, but i think it's very difficult to do. >> i don't work at the fbi. if i did, these aren't dots on some trump derangement syndrome sort of delusion. there is a directfá line ife1 and white. roger stone dedicates his book to the branch davidian groups celebrate them in black and white in ink or online the 3 percenters and right-wing militias. they proudly organization the participation of their memberse in the january 6th insurrection. donald trumpe1 rolls footage of january 6th, puts his hand over

his heart and pays tribute toxd them redefining patriotism in america with a direct line again, not a conspiracy theory, in black and white, frome1 ston to the branch davidians to the militia groups to the insurrection to the republic -- republican nominee for president in 2024. what do you think is happening in the fbi to protect us from >> well, yeah, i have had the same thought myself. nyt( notion myself. that anything significantly changed in terms of how the fbi can operate post-january 6th. i think many people, if you can ask them, hey, do you think have gotten better in terms of addressing domestic terrorism after january 6th, do youi] thi people changed the rules? there is no evidence of that whatsoever.fb(pr(t&háhp &hc% we have no domestic terrorism law and i don't believe, unless ther%haas a secret memo from doj, i don't believe the operational guidelines for the fbi have changed one iota with regard to the domestic terrorism

program. really ever 9/11 an international terrorism attack we created an institution called the department of homeland security and passed theq patrio act and laws regarding supporting international terrorism. so they have a tough job. yes, they are aware. i know they are watching. >> monitoring. boy, do i hope that special council jack smith pressed record this weekend, saturdayqt night, for the waco z1e introduce into evidence --fá i don't know if he wille1e1 succe but qn former president trump playing footage of january 6th at hise1 e5)ally. and i hope he gets into evidence statements like death and destruction with regard to the case. i hope he gets into evidence the picture of trump about to swing a baseball bat at alvin bragg's head. i hope all of that g■ue into evidence for mindset and context because that's what trump is

doing. and i am pleased that john heilemann has drawn that line for us that many people are unaware of what happened at waco and the bombing of the oklahoma city federal building two years later by a guy named timothy mcveigh who was simply there at wacoq observing what happened a1 tried to getretbution when he blew up the federal building with a day care center in it. with regard to what is the fbi thinking about righti] now, one question is, who was at waco saturday night in the crowd? who is the nextçó timothy mcvei that's going to act on the rhetoric and the incitement of violence of donald trump and do something horrible? next week? next year?4, >> it's march 27th. april 19th is the 30th anniversary of?;■ waco. this whole period thee1e1e1 51 doesn't just go into waco. trump did this in the middle of the anniversary of the siege. april 19th ise1 coming.

i am worried about april 19th, worried aboutxd the 30th anniversary. >> we will for our part continue to stay on this. but, you know, the truth can't ever be sugar coated. donald trump and the people around him know exactly where they were and what they were doing and who was theree1 and w had walked there before them. frank, eddie, johqá■ mary, than you so much. we want to let you know that mary is the co-host along with andrew wiseman of our podcast series prosecuting donald trump. áur()h!reak for us. we'll be right back. sam. sophie's not here tonight. so you have a home with no worries. brought to you by adt.

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. even if the news is difficult, great to be back. i thank youáf your homes for another day of breaking news. "the beat with ari melber" picks it up right now. hi, ari.u >> we are tracking as nicole mentioned several stories including a report later in the hour aboutjf tha