into the next election. most americans are where they are. >> it's exactly that, a political issue for them they view as a winner. they just don't have the votes. so it will continue to be a political weapon they can use going into the elections for next year. if you want anything done, if americans want movement on this, they'll need more democrats in the house and senate. that's the only argument they can make right now. >> certainly we'll continue to follow developments out of nashville. we'll expect to hear from the president again today. he's got a few public appearances. we expect he'll talk about guns, and we expect there will be silence from the republican party. nicholas johnson, thank you so much for joining us this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. w good morning, and welcome to

"morning joe." it is wednesday, march 29th. we have a lot to get to this hour, including a major development in the investigation into former president donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. a federal judge has ordered mike pence to give testimony. meanwhile former trump ally chris christie appears to be willing to play the anti-trump role if he gets into the 2024 race. we'll have more on that new reporting. and we're still on so called indictment watch since the president announced, the former president, that he was going to be arrested. we'll have the latest on the manhattan grand jury's investigation into the hush money payments to a porn star. plus, an update on the continuing protests in israel, and what president biden is saying about meeting with the country's leader, along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire,

just ran over. >> how does he do that? >> and member of the "new york times" editorial board mara gay is with us, and presidential historian, jon meacham. >> very good. >> thank you. >> opening day tomorrow, guys. >> it is, the yankees get the giants, which i kind of like. across country, inner league game to start the season, a fun, three-game series. the yankees will be starting a 21-year-old shortstop by the name of anthony volpe, grew up a yankee's fan, he was so good, stayed in the pros, and now as a 21-year-old gets starting nod as shortstop. a couple of pitchers on the dl. that's not great. we're excited about the prospects. >> the red sox, feeling good, a couple of prospects from pensacola catholic lie. >> 14 years old. >> 14. but let me tell you something,

he's got this good sweeping motion, the 74 miles per hour fast ball. you don't always see it coming. >> tough to pick up from the kid who's 4'8", the batter is not used to that. >> the over/unders, because that's what we do. remember, boom. 57.5, put the over/under there. >> made a lot of money on that. >> we made a lot of money on that. indictments is 2 1/2, over/under. figure out which way you want to go. boston red sox wins this year. i'm putting it at 83.5. you going over or under? >> i'm going to go under. the schedule helps, that's why the yankees are opening with the giants. every team plays every team this year. therefore you play fewer division games, and the red sox have to play fewer games against the yankees, blue jays, et

cetera. spring is optimistic. opening day is here. they have a lot of holes. the pitching staff, a lot of question marks in turns of health. the lineup is okay. we have a bunch of 38-year-olds, and an odd blend of 38-year-olds and high school kids on the team. >> we have a lot of 38 year olds. >> mike barnicle, you excited? >> oh, boy. you're excited about it, aren't you. >> your over/under, you know, a year or two ago we could have said fights, feuds, inside "the new york times". it's gotten so cold there. >> oh, it's so calm. >> like with bands, you can't have the egos in bands. i know you feel the same way about "the new york times." no egos there.

they're going, how can i help you. >> fleetwood mac, no egos. no drama. >> a lot of cocaine. a lot of fighting. >> oh, my god. >> this is more exciting than i thought. >> very exciting. >> we have one more over/under with meacham. mentions of the french indian war. >> oh, here we go. >> our first global struggle. >> oh, my god. >> there you go. it's going to be good morning this morning. >> let's get to the news. a lot to get to this morning. and we are learning a lot more this morning about the heroic actions by nashville officers to get inside the school and con front the shooter during monday's attack. nashville police released body camera video from officers. rex engelberg and michael colasso who are credited with taking down the shooter.

it shows the officer arriving to the school immediately, grabbing the rifle from the trunk of his suv. he has a brief interaction with a staff member outside the school who tells him the students are on lockdown but two children are missing. after that video shows engelberg and other officers rushing through the halls, checking and clearing classrooms. they moved quickly to the second floor where they fire on the shooter who was reloading near a window. the officers were able to confront and kill the shooter in about three minutes. police say the shooter was under a doctor's care for an emotional disorder whose parents thought should not own weapons. the parents told police they believed the 28-year-old shooter only owned one gun, but it turns out the shooter had seven guns stashed around the house. all of them purchased legally, including two assault style rifles and a handgun that the

shooter had during the attack. nashville's police chief says the motive has not been determined but investigators believe the school and the church were the main targets, not the victims themselves. >> what a difference from uvalde and parkland where we saw an officer hiding out in the bushes while kids were getting shot. >> the video is six minutes long if you can stomach it. it's extraordinary to watch on a couple of fronts. i found myself getting emotional watching it, number one because of the heroism of the officers. no hesitation whatsoever. charging into rooms where they didn't know what was waiting for them in the room, looking in the bathrooms where they didn't know what was behind the door and confronting the shooter and stopping the shooter, god knows what else would have happened if they hadn't done that. the emotion you're seeing right now of the officers sprinting past these cubbies, sprinting

past art work from preschoolers and kindergartners, this is so vivid and horrifying. this is what kids deal with, there is the possibility that in your little school or big school or whatever school you go to, there may some day be police officers charging through with weapons drawn to confront the shooter. this video takes your breath away on many fronts. >> it does. mara, again, lessons that we -- law enforcement officers are supposed to have learned all the way back at columbine. we see tragically here, when you rush in, even if you have victims on the floor, which i'm afraid we saw here, they rush past, and they get the shooter, and, again, all the things that weren't done in uvalde were done here. of course the fact that we're even here is so grotesque, but first, just they actually did

this right. . >> i find myself with willie, on the one hand, you're looking at these officers, thinking, yes, this is what we want our police officers to do. the amount of training, the heroism, the lack of hesitation, they're going to defend the defenseless. they did everything right, it seems, and they are heroes. and they should get full credit for that, and in a time when i think, you know, police/community relations, there are a lot of questions about police accountability. this is an example of police officers doing their job exactly as society asks them to do, and going above and beyond. i also have to say, i guess you watch and you think, is this really the way we want to live. is this the best solution. do we have to have these children exposed to this violence on a day-to-day basis, and then similarly, if you're

the wife or the family member of one of these or, i don't know, husband, police officers, why is your loved one's life being put into danger because we refuse, as a society, the only, you know, modern society in the world, democracy in the world that refuses to deal honestly and directly with the reality of what it means to just have guns, legal or not, you know, lying around. >> and that's the other part of the story that we brought to you just now and that is that this shooter, she got, she had two guns. turns out there were many more, and two assault rifles. i mean, is this how we want to live? >> the thing is, jonathan lemire, it's a choice. people are saying, there's so many guns, what can we do. no, this has been a choice. forgive me for sounding ideological here. i say this for a former guy with

100% record with the nra, this is a deliberate choice by the gun lobby to rip people into a frenzy of paranoia. so they think they have to go out and start getting ar-15s, weapons that were intended for war. so police officers have to run into the line of fire. police officers have to deal with this every day. the possibility of like one out of four americans having weapons of war. weapons of war. and why do they have those weapons of war? some of them just like to go to a gun range and feel like a real man because they obviously don't in their regular life. so they have to go to a gun range and shoot ar-15s. other people love guns. they just do. so they go there for that purpose. they like collecting guns. but the vast majority have been whipped into a frenzy by paranoia that has been fed by the nra to raise money and for

gun manufacturers to make tons of money. again, this is so important. this is a choice republicans have made over the past 25 years. i tell my children who were just -- and i tell young mothers who were crying on this day going, my god, my kids, i worry about them every day i send them to school. >> who wants to get a gun, he and the other dads in the neighborhood around the school because when they're this close, they want to be able to protect them. >> they want to be there faster than 14 minutes. that feeds into the gun lobby too. all data shows you, more guns, more deaths. whether by violence or by suicide. more guns, more death. but after columbine, that was a oneoff. this started happening, and steve rattner yesterday, this

has skyrocketed in the past 20 years because now gun companies make the most money selling weapons meant to kill human beings in vietnam, and on battlefields. that's where we are as a society, and it is sick. and i swear to god, sometime we're going to get past this. i know we are. and people are going to look back at us and they're going to go what the hell were they thinking. why did they sacrifice a generation of children to fear and nightmares and death and destruction. that will be asked of us. what the hell were they thinking. at some point, we're going to get past this. but we're in the middle of it now. and it's all about money. freak people out. make them paranoid. make them think they need weapons of war, and we, the gun

manufacturers make tons of money. >> and on that data shows every time there's been a mass shooting, gun sales go up in the immediate after math. there's a fear the government is going to take your guns. therefore people want to arm themselves after shootings like this. and we have moments where we saw it in uvalde, officers rushing into the school yesterday who performed heroically, they didn't know if they would be out gunned. they were concerned this shooter may have had as much weapons as they were. they were able to take a moment where the shooter was reloading, they were able to shoot first and take the shooter down. >> i had a guy tell me last summer that i know very well and respect in all areas, but have real problems with his politics. he was saying after uvalde, he said, well, you know, though, we can't take the guns away because that's what hitler did, that's what stalin did, i was like, dude. you had one 18-year-old mentally

deranged guy that had more fire power inside of an elementary school than 300 scared cops outside. don't even start with me on somehow the great masses having, you know, no fire power, it's now the cops. listen to me everybody. stop and think, we now live in a society in 2023 because of republicans, because of the nra, because of the gun manufacturers who make millions and billions of dollars, we now live in a society where the cops are afraid of the convicts. where former presidents, former presidents, they may martyrs out of convicts who storm the united states capitol. these republicans are the enemy of the rule of law. everywhere we look, they're so

worried about drag show, whatever they do, all of the stupidity. they're so afraid someone's going to read a book about hank aaron. they're so afraid they're going to read a book on roberto clemente, they're perfectly fine with ar-15s. they're sick. >> and they're silent. reporters approached them, there's nothing we can do. there's nothing we can do. they would rather talk about anything than guns. there's a mental health crisis, there's a gun crisis. >> mental health crisis, okay, good, fund it. quadruple funding for mental health crisis. >> and speaker kevin mccarthy, the person who could bring legislation to the house floor, the gate keeper for any discussion of any sort of gun reform legislation that could follow up this shooting, we did get a modest proposal, any chance for this year, mccarthy has to get it to the floor. mccarthy has not said a word about this issue. >> he's a coward, not a tweet,

not a word. >> he didn't even give thoughts and prayers, not even a boilerplate response. video yesterday jogging through the halls of the capitol. >> you wonder if responsible gun owners could organize themselves to speak up in some way. as somebody who grew up, you know, in a city who did not have guns in the house, so i do have family, you know, who had guns out in michigan. they hunted, they fished. that's fine. that furthers the division. everyone in america is telling us those of us without guns, it's okay because there are many responsible gun owners. i believe that. i know that to be true. and yet when you don't have guns in your house growing up, you cannot help but look at this scene and think, this cannot be. how did those guns get in the wrong hands. >> just about everybody i know owns guns. i own guns. i trained. i have my permit. i waited a year to get my carry

permit. everybody has guns and everybody i know that has guns, every one of them, every one of them says why do you need a weapon of war? i don't need a weapon of war to kill a deer. i don't need a weapon of war to defend my house. . and you know the bizarre thing is they see these shootings and they say to mika and to me, this has to stop. this has to stop. and yet there's no connection between who they vote for, who they vote for, what they watch on tv, what they read on the internet. they're plugged into a propaganda machine that says the government is coming to take all of your rights, and if you don't have a weapon of war that was actually engineered for vietnam, then the government, joe biden and nancy pelosi and aoc are

coming to take your freedoms. >> a disturbing disconnect, and one that a lot of americans who live in households without guns can't abide by. >> yeah. jon meacham, i wanted to get all of that out of the way and have you talk about this personally. my oldest son lived by you in nashville. this is right down the street from where he lived and right by where you live. they know families who unfortunately were tragically, tragically touched by this horror. talk about it and how it's just shattered your community? >> well, it's about a mile away from where we live, about a mile away from our girl's school. they went into lockdown on monday. an 8th grader and a senior in high school with their

classmates. not knowing how the violence would unfold. my high school senior daughter yesterday simply said they were 9 years old, they were 9 years old. and we had a long and painful conversation touching on a lot of the issues you have been raising on monday night, which is why can't the public sector respond in some way to try to take the means, the means of these massacres down. how can we not lower the temperature and reduce the possibility. you won't get rid of all of it, but my view of this for a long time has been you can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

i'm one of those responsible gun owners you're talking about. i cannot imagine wanting one of these weapons. my great grandfather, i have a gun that my great, great, great grandfather made. that's just a whole different thing. the culture we're talking about that defends these assault weapons and the centrality of them now in the american imagination, particularly on the right is really a post-1968 phenomenon. you know, it's something that -- >> jon, can i interrupt you for a second, a guy that you know well of president bush, bush 41 was a lifelong member of the nra, a lot of his friends were. in 1993, 1994, wayne lapierre, and the nra started to radicalize, and they started

calling federal authorities jack booted thugs, and bush said i've had enough of this. other people who saw the nra as something to belong to so their children could take gun safety courses and use how to use a gun safely, a lot of these people just quit the nra. >> yeah. it was in the wake of oklahoma city. the nra put out a fundraising letter referring to federal agents as jack booted thugs. president bush in houston sat down and at his word processer wrote a letter saying that it violated -- such an attack on federal agents violated his concept of duty to country and service and was not at all in sync with the federal agents that he knew. remember, he spent every day with them, with the secret service, and resigned his lifetime nra membership. that was two years after former president reagan came out in favor of the brady bill.

so it's another example of how far from reality and sensibility this conversation has gone. the reason i bring up my family conversation is i tried as we are doing right now to explain this culturally. you know, why passing this kind of legislation is so hard, and i felt so inadequate. i would say, well, you know, this has a lot to do with the reaction, one of the last things the great society did was the gun control act of 1968 and my children would look at me as if, you know, the way you look at me most mornings. it was just -- >> love and admiration. >> it was, what are you talking about? >> right. i get it. >> they were 9 years old. >> right. >> i'm talking about the last act of the great society. they said they were 9 years old.

so all i'm saying on the policy front is we did this for ten years. the shootings, i think the statistics will show you, went down. we did not lose our liberties. the government did not come for us. >> it's not a sensible position, and to those who say, and there will be many of them, many of them in federal office, you can't stop every shooting. here's my response. what if it had stopped this one? what if those 9-year-olds, that head of school, that custodian, that substitute teacher were going to school this morning? >> yeah. >> isn't that worth it? >> yes, it is. i mean, the other side of that is what if she had not been reloading. might be be a whole different

story, and to touch on meacham's conversation with his kids. after newtown, i had a conversation with my children who were in school, and one was especially concerned about a school shooting coming to their school. >> for a long time. >> and i remember being incredibly invalidating because she was trying to tell me that this could happen, and i was trying to tell her that it couldn't because it's so unusual and data. and now, as a parent in america, you can't say that. because it's not true. it's not true. at any time, at any moment, there will be a mass shooting potentially at a school every day, every day. you can't even tell a child it's okay to feel safe and to think that this is so unusual and you're going to be okay. you can't. it's wrong. >> you know, very quickly, what jon meacham said about ronald reagan. ronald reagan supported the

assault weapons ban. you know, willie, i remember after i heard a lot of progressives and people center of left going on and on after the kyle rittenhouse verdict, you know, how did this happen. i said, well, jury instructions that the state legislature made. and why is there jury jury -- gerrymandering, here, how did this woman who had serious problems that was being treated for serious problems, how could this woman buy seven, eight guns. there is a cause and effect. tennessee has one of the most lenient gun culture in america, and i have friends that have left the state of tennessee

because of permitless carry, because people can walk around. it's open carry. people can walk around with long guns. you walk into a grocery store, you know, you walk into a restaurant. wherever you go, you're going voting, people can walk around with long guns in tennessee. cause/effect, they're arming themselves to the t, the legislature is, the governor is signing bills. they can't be shocked this is happening. the data, more guns equals more deaths from guns. check the data. >> and even the issue of permitless carry which is not just in tennessee, but we see across the country is framed as constitutional carry, meaning everyone has a right to carry a gun without training, it's in the constitution, and that's the argument from those governors and those state legislatures. >> they should read heller.

even scalia wrote heller and said you can regulate this stuff, weapons of war, you can regulate it if you want to regulate it. look at connecticut after newtown, they passed expansive -- the supreme court never overturned it. but you love tennessee. you just love it. i mean, for you too. it's just heartbreaking for everybody. you see where tennessee has gone the patz couple of years. it's a race to the bottom on all of this. >> yeah, i know, like john, i know exactly where that church is, where that little school is as well. it's devastating. we know people worried about their kids or who had friends of kids at the school, and tragically the three 9-year-olds and three other adults, including the head of school were killed there, the head of the school. so, you know, i think jon's point is a good one about this generation talking to his kids. if you look even at the polling, republican young people, among kids, they go, we got to do

something better than we're doing right now. they have lived it. we're on the other side of the glass. we were fortunate enough to grow up where i never thought about getting shot at school. fire drill is the worst we did. this is very real for every kid in america. this next generation, when they get into power, they may ultimately be the ones to do something about it. they have lived it, they have had the fear of walking through school every day. >> and also being trained what to do if there's a school shooter. one of my daughters literally the drill was not only what to do in the classroom but how to con front a shooter, how to run, where to run. it was crazy. it's like she called me absolutely mortified, terrified. terrified. >> it's happening every day. it's happening every day, and jonathan, this morning moms, dads, taking their kids to school scared like they have been. because, again -- >> it's what parents talk about now. >> it is, the pace of it is

picking up more and more, and joe biden just basically said, i have done everything i can do without congress. >> i talked to my own kids last night about this, about shootings. they're of course worried too. and we heard from the president yesterday. he has done everything he can on executive action, executive order, the white house is looking to see if there's more they can do. nothing will get done without congress. they are silent on the issue. we know the data, the last assault weapons ban lifted, the spike in mass shootings is dramatic, dramatic, and we're still there, and it's getting worse by the day. a federal judge says former vice president mike pence must testify in the justice department's probe into donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. also ahead this morning, the latest from israel, as prime minister benjamin netanyahu and president biden trade words as protests continue across that country. plus amid a stalemate over the debt ceiling, house speaker

kevin mccarthy demands a meeting with the white house. oh, okay. but the administration wants to see a gop budget proposal first. and later, a look at the morning papers from across the country, including a new report about a first of its kind alzheimer's study, and as we go to break, a note about our show as we approach one year since we expanded to -- guys, has it been one year? >> we're going to eight. settle down. >> there are now even more ways to watch "morning joe." we're of course right here on msnbc every morning from 6:00 to 10:00 a.m. you can also now stream us live on peacock every weekday from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. eastern. it's through the morning's news live offering. head to peacocktv.com/"morning joe" to learn more. if you're not already listening to our show cast, find us wherever you get your podcasts. >> who wrote this? >> they want to let people know how to find us. because people are cord cutting,

joe. they're cord cutting. >> chances are good if you turn on your tv, we're on. whether you want to be or not. also saturday morning too. >> anyhow, through all of those ways, you can get more in-depth analysis of the top news stories. sign up for our daily news letter as well. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> you like to do two or three hours? >> please. hours? >> please.

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a beautiful shot of washington this morning for you. nbc news has learned a federal judge has ordered former vice president mike pence to comply with a subpoena. >> i'm shocked, said no one in the world. >> in the investigation into former president donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020

election results, that's according to a source familiar with the decision. the ruling issued on monday requires pence to testify before the grand jury tied to the probe led by special counsel jack smith. smith is currently investigating trump's actions surrounding january 6th, and his mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. >> this guy is not coasting down the hill. he's not saying, i'm just going to take this easy, i mean, he's aggressively trying to get the facts lined up to see if a crime was committed. >> he is, and as many people wait to see what's going to happen in lower manhattan, if there would be an indictment of the former president, the truth of the matter is what jack smith is looking at, what happens in georgia may be much more consequential and worse in the long run. while pence does have limited protections because of the

speech and debate clause of the constitution, which can protect lawmakers from being compelled to discuss legislative, that did not prevent him about testifying from conversations related to alleged illegality on trump's part. here's what he said last night on the right wing pro trump channel news max. >> i have nothing to hide. i have a constitution to uphold. i upheld the constitution on january 6th. i believe we did our duty that day under the constitution of the united states. we're currently speaking to our attorneys about the proper way forward, and as i said, we'll have a decision in the coming days. >> willie, a lot of modifiers. newsmax. >> i like it. >> i saw you reading the prompter, by the right wing,

protrump. >> is it really right wing used to be conservative. there's a difference between being conservative and being a trumpist. >> exactly. i never say conservative. >> they're not. there are differences in conservatism, and you can't say they're right wing because right wing usually denotes somebody who's pro military, pro law enforcement. >> and they're not. they hate the military. they always talked about how they'd rather be russia. they hate law enforcement, if law enforcement was like the fbi or capitol hill cops, if they're getting in the way of their sort of radical anarchic behavior. they're not even a right wing. >> no, and also they just spent an entire thing in waco, texas, celebrating beating up cops on january 6th. >> they have. can you imagine if the left did this? they have the leading candidate for president, for the

nomination for the presidency praising -- they have put together a choir of convicts. >> it's deranged. >> who beat the shit out of cops with an american flag. i'm sorry. i'm sorry, would you like me to say it in a nicer way? >> yes, i would, actually. that's not appropriate. >> they beat the crap out of cops with an american flag, willie, and four died, and their families directly blame the assault, the rioters. they defecated -- can you imagine if left wingers did all of that and then bernie sanders says i have a good idea, let's make a choir, we can celebrate the fact that they defecated on

the cops, we can do that, why, that will help us? i mean, think about that, what would newsmax say, what would fox say, what would all of these right wing -- they are openly praising rioters and convicts. >> you can see bernie at burlington, vermont, having a rally with a puffer coat on, bring out the choir. it's deeply sick, actually. it's deeply sick. >> by the way, here's the choir on their debut. >> these are your heroes. these are your heroes. >> this is the hero of the republican party. these are the heroes of donald trump. these are the heroes of npg. this is who they love, willie. >> they're visiting them in prison as if it's birmingham in '63 or something. political prisoners, it's wild. let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian.

let's get back to mike pence and the subpoena. he's talking about it as if it's up to him, his choice, he's going to talk about it with his people, a subpoena is a court order to show up. what happens here? >> unless there's an effort to appeal this ruling, mike pence is going to have to testify. and most legal experts believe the justice department has a strong hand here, particularly on executive privilege. there are two issues here. pence argued that he might be subject to executive privilege but also the speech and debate clause because he was presiding over the senate, and this is about the trump team's efforts to pressure pence to act in his ceremonial role, presiding over the electoral vote count on january 6th. he researched with his people and concluded he had no authority to do anything but preside and the trump team kept pressing him, and john eastman, and jack smith wants to get his testimony about that.

he may have information that no one else has, particularly conversations with donald trump. he's going to have to testify most likely, and this is part of a flurry of rulings, as you guys know, in recent days where the special counsel has won on these issues and has gotten court orders to compel the testimony of a variety of former aides to former president trump, including chief of staff mark meadows and people like dan scavino, and senior national security aids, like the former director of national intelligence jon ratliffe. they're going to have to testify before the grand jury investigating january 6th, and even more dangerous, i think, than any of that stuff was the ruling that's requiring the president's own lawyer to testify in the documents case, and he did that last week in front of the grand jury. that is very very dangerous for donald trump, guys. >> all right. ken dilanian, thank you so much.

greatly appreciate it. and jon meacham, we have all known from the very beginning. mike pence was going to have to testify. the supreme court has not done every privilege claim that donald trump has weekly thrown up and they're all going to have to testify because they believe a crime may have been committed here, and so we're going to -- i mean, we're going to see mike pence. we're going to see all of the presidents, we're going to see the presidents lawyers, go testify here. where does this end. >> well, it was a coup, right? that's what we're talking about here. the fact that it didn't work is in no small measure to the credit of vice president pence. that should be noted. i think that we need to know as much as possible about what unfolded in the fall and into

the winter of 2020, 2021 because it was a remarkable set of factors, but they were factors that could reoccur, and i think the legal question is essential, and i think the historical and cultural one is. we almost lost the constitution in december and january of 2021. and the fact that we didn't is quasi miraculous, and we just need to do all we can to understand and to at least increase the odds that we can pull off a couple more miracles as we go forward. >> all right. coming up, the most explicit antitrump pledge yet from a potential republican presidential candidate, plus, one of our next guests says ron desantis just made himself unelectable as president. >> did you notice that trump keeps doing all of these italian

things where he thinks he's a queens guy from like 1947. and then, what. >> work in a pizza parlor. >> and trump is thinking, yeah, exactly, trump is thinking that that's funny. he doesn't realize that anti italian thing passed for most people a long time ago. >> and his attacks on desantis, by the way, drew silence at that waco rally this weekend. >> we'll explain the news week article. the house financial committee will hold its first hearing on the recent u.s. bank failures. a member of the panel, congressman ritchie torrez is our guest. "morning joe" will be right back. >> you look like donald trump, are you really calling anybody a meat ball. we'll be right back. meat ball. we'll be right back.

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a live look agent the white house ten minutes before the top of the hour. we begin in new jersey where the courier post reports the number of anti-semitic incidents has reached historic levels. according to the antidefamation league, the state saw a 10% increase in an anti-jewish incidents last year. nationwide, there were 3,700 reported incidents. that's a 36% increase from the year before, and the highest the organization has ever seen. since it started tracking acts of hate, back in 1979. >> by the way, again, not a coincidence. it's just like the guns. not a coincidence here. you have somebody after charlottesville that says there are good people on both sides. you have donald trump inviting neo-nazis and anti-semites to eat with him. it sends a message. >> it sends a message but i

think we like to pretend that it doesn't. there's such a plausible denialability, the attitude of, oh, well, i was just suggesting something. the other day, i think it was last week when alvin bragg was called, i don't even want to repeat it on air, it was anti-semitic and antiblack, you know, racist slur used, those things give cover to people with guns, god forbid, to do whatever they feel like doing in their sick heads. and anybody who is a black person or a jewish person in america knows that. we know that. so all you have to do is ask us. we understand what it means. and, you know, we make it our business to know how to survive. so i really -- it's disturbing. it's depressing, and i have to just say, just on a generational note. i grew up with the grandchildren of holocaust survivors. holocaust survivors came to our

classroom. it was not that long ago. you would think the lessons would hold at least this long, and they're not. so, you know, you don't have to pull the trigger to put someone in danger, and i think that's where it is right now! the wichita eagle has a front page feature on kansas lawmakers considering moving away from caucus elections. the gop-controlled state legislature is fast tracking a bill that would allow the state to hold the presidential primary instead. right now, kansas holds party one caucuses. supporters say switching to primaries will lead to more residents casting a ballot. >> jonathan lemire, if they switch from a caucus to primary, more people will be able to be involved and the results will actually matter. why would they want to do that? >> it's a great question, joe. certainly this is a large -- >> state your relevance. >> kansas, what are you doing? it's a large trend, though, certainly caucuses, we have seen some debacle recently.

our people are moving away from those. it does seem like primaries are going to take more center stage going forward. >> the florida times union leads with the mayo clinic in jacksonville, supporting a $41 million grant to study alzheimer's disease. researchers will analyze medical data from thousands of living patients and study donated brain and blood samples. the goal is to identify a way to treat the disease. officials say the study will be quote the first of its kind in its scope and reach. and in michigan, the grand rapids press reports the federal highway administration wants states to stop making funny traffic safety signs. don't make them funny. late last year, the agency sent a letter to new jersey asking it to cease and desist with its jokes and pop culture references along the highway. state officials say the signs command more attention. but they're willing to work with the federal agency on a

compromise. >> willie, i mean, it's like phil griffin telling us when we first started "morning joe," be more dull. >> he did not say that. as a native of new jersey, we apologize for nothing. personality, we have an edge, we have an attitude. our rest stops are named after john bon jovi and games gandolfini and whitney houston, and frank sinatra and vince lom. our twitter account trashes people about bagels and pizza. >> i love the spin on that. >> jon meacham, you were sort of ahead in this trend, you stopped being funny a long time ago. >> got out right when the show started. >> yeah, it's one of the few things where i have been ahead of a curve.

>> exactly. exactly. so, jon, we've had donald trump once again play everybody. you know, none of us ever learn. he two weeks ago said he was going to be arrested on tuesday, he raised money off of it. though, not as much as he wanted to. you have ron desantis challenging, are we going to end up with a trump biden rematch in 2024? >> i think so, i don't see any -- i know that all of our establishment friends, you know, will solemnly put on their peter malar vest and tell us that trump -- >> oh, my god, brutal. >> how about that? like that? >> that actually was pretty good. >> you know, he --

>> in fact, i'm not going to finish the point. y'all just keep going. it's on, you know, they're telling us, you know, solemnly that trump is done. on what evidence is trump done? none that i can see. but look, i'm always wrong, but for what it's support, it seems to me that the elemental forces that donald trump has managed to manage and marshal, provoke and put into action are still there. and there's not any significant data that would suggest that somehow or another there's going to be this lightning strike and suddenly it's going to be 1986 again and bob dole and george mitchell are going to go on capital gain. >> there's a reference. >> you pulled it back.

>> pull the brake back. >> staying on brand, staying on brand, baby. >> khakis, you know what i'm talking about, baby. >> i do. >> no socks. so does anybody at this table have any doubt that donald trump, like, doesn't have the best chance of both winning the republican nomination, and losing the general election? i think we can very well look back -- look back and say, my god, it was so evident. >> i think there was this moment or maybe we're still in this moment where ron desantis was the alternative. he represented some version of the alternative for people wish casting donald trump away. donald trump -- desantis hasn't even gotten the race. it remains to be seen how he might perform on a national stage. jonathan, just with the polling for starters, and the question

will be, did any of these indictments impact anything? there's not really evidence that republicans are that worried about any of these cases, even if donald trump is indicted four times he's going to keep running. >> he's the overwhelming favorite to be the republican nominee. we'll see if desantis gets in. he would therefore be the clear underdog in the general election in 2024 if there's a rematch with president biden. >> it's his way out of jail. jon meacham, thank you. new reporting on how ron desantis is faring so far with donald trump's attacks. we're back in a moment with that and much more. acks we're back in a moment with that and much more. (vo) in the next 30 seconds, 250 couples will need to make room for a nursery. (man) ah ha (vo) 26 people will go all-in (woman) yes! (vo) this family will get two bathrooms. and finally, one vacationer will say... (man) yeah, woo, i'm going to live here... (vo) but as the euphoria subsides, the realization hits... i've got to sell the house. (all) [screams]

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church school, it is time for us to move beyond thoughts and prayers. remind our lawmakers of the words of the british statesman edmond burke. all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. >> what happened in nashville is obviously incredibly serious. >> that was house speaker -- >> that was pathetic. >> you were asked a question about an incredible act of violence in our country where children are slaughtered and you can't stop to say something. >> little kids get slaughtered.

>> is that hard now, a difficult thing to do to remove politics from three 9-year-olds and three staff were murder instead a school, and you can't stop and say thoughts and prayers. the gears are turning if i criticize, are the crazies in my party going to come after me. am i going to lose money for people who fund my campaign. it's insane. >> it's how politicized it's become. i've been there. it's not worth it. that's what i don't understand. every day these people who are willing to sell their souls, their political souls, in this case, their souls. little kids getting blown away in school, and he's afraid to say anything. >> he hasn't released a statement. he hasn't posted anything on social media about the tragedy. before that, we all were listening as we heard from the senate chaplain. calling on lawmakers to take action on gun violence.

>> and quoting edmond burke. >> second line of succession, profile in courage there. jonathan lemire and mara gay, joining the conversation, cohost of show time's the circus, john heilemann and political reporter for "axios," alexi mccammond is with us, good to have you both on board. this morning, we are learning more about the heroic actions by nashville officers to get inside the school and confront the shooter during monday's attack. nashville police released body cam video from rex engelbert and michael collazo. it shows officer engelbert grabbing the rifle from the trunk of his suv. a brief interaction with a staff member outside the school who tells him students are on lockdown, but that two children are missing. after that, video shows

engelbert, collazo and other officers rushing through the halls, checking and clearing classrooms quickly. they move to the second floor where they fire on the shooter who was reloading at a window. police say the shooter was under a doctor's care for an emotional disorder whose parents thought should not own weapons. the parents told police they believed the 28-year-old shooter owned only one gun. >> and they thought she had sold that. >> but it turns out the shooter had seven guns stashed around the house, all of them were purchased legally, including two assault-style rifles and a handgun the shooter had during the attack. >> former republican wyoming congresswoman liz cheney weighed in on the nashville school shooting posting on twitter, we need to spend less time banning books, and more time stopping the horrific gun violence in our schools. her comments were made in response to our friend jenna

bush hager who said yesterday on the "today" show when she talked about knowing one of the girls killed in monday's shooting and criticizing some states for prioritizing banning books instead of the safety of children. and who could argue with that. >> that is the most ridiculous parallel going on there. >> it's insane, john heilemann. oh, we have to take care of children, we need to ban books. we need to have these vague guidelines that so freak out librarians and teachers that they pull books about hank aaron and roberto clemente off the shelves. we're going to go around and accuse everybody of teaching critical race theory when, in fact, that pretty soon gets dumbed down. just saying that black americans have been historically discriminated against. systematically discriminated

against. something that you could add judicial notice taken of, like in all 50 states, right? >> so they freak out about these things, and yet they're cool with schools getting shot up over and over and over again because they won't pass legislation that will do something to stop it. >> what's the body count on critical race theory. like what's the tally of dead children because what's the body count on roberto clemente, and hank aaron biographies. people are concerned about having children be able to see michelangelo's the david because there's an exposed penis and genitalia, and they say it's pornography. italians are sensible. people are expending their energy on. we got to really be careful about that, showing the david because that's the body count on that, what's the body count on that one. >> it's making up wedge issues

about children when, in fact, the greatest threat to children is staring them right in the face. and they won't even talk about it. >> and that is kind of the thing, even by the most -- even if you granted a bunch of the ludicrous arguments about the harms done that the culture warriors on the right, what's the body count, how many dead kids are we talking about. someone will be on twitter, you know, shut up, it's killing these people. you said it before. i hate to say it, the more guns, the more dead. and you look around, we have been singing this song for a long time. you can't say enough times, the western world, there's no other country like this, and what's the difference? the difference is our policies suck, and their policies are more or less sensible. you can argue on the margins, but you look around western

europe, there's not body counts in schools over generations. >> we don't have to compare the united states to sweden or lu, you can compare tennessee with connecticut. you can compare states that have the most permissive gun laws with the states that have the least permissive gun laws, and shock of all shocks, you have where there are more guns in states there are more deaths. >> and it's paradoxical, and you have culture warriors talk about freedom. freedom to do what, to have to talk to your kids at night, explain to them that a shooter might come into their school and there's nothing to be done about it. nobody wants to live this way, and so i guess the question that i ask is why are folks who are kind of gloming on to these culture war issues like critical race theory, why are they more afraid of black people or of those issues or of transgender

people or drag shows than they are of -- concerned about their own children, you know, in a school. what is it about this country that won't allow us to have a rational conversation about this. because, you know, we talked a lot on this show about patriotism and the exceptionalism of the united states, and there are a lot of things to be proud of. on this issue, the rest of the world is looking at us and just going, wow, what is wrong with them. >> yeah. >> and it's embarrassing and how do you explain this lack of action to these parents and to these kids. i mean, it's almost -- it's hard to contemplate. i spent the weekend with my 5-year-old god daughter, and i don't want to have this conversation with her. her mother doesn't want to have this conversation with her. we shouldn't have to have this

conversation with her. and yet, you know, we're ask these children to be braver than these politicians. >> yep. >> why is that? >> you saw congressman tim burchett. >> that's a guy, take a look at this video. he's the guy that says a couple of weeks ago, he was on video talking about the drag law in tennessee. we are not going to tolerate these drag queens. we can shut them down. we're not going to tolerate them. we cannot tolerate, right, we will not allow this to happen in our state, these people. two weeks ago that congressman on the high horse about how we got to shut the drag shows down. >> they can do something about the drag queens, can't do something about the little children being killed. let's talk about the weapon of choice, jonathan lemire, for one shooter after another shooter after another shooter.

it's an ar-15, and if you try to say that there are too many, and they should stop being sold, people freaking out, and talking about their constitutional rights, they need to protect themselves, again, i'm not going to get too much into guns. i don't want to freak people out watching this show, but people that i go on to ranges with, and we've talked about it, and we've laughed at the argument that you need an ar-15 to protect your home. and some lawman saying i need an ar-15 to protect my children in my house. let me tell you something, again, don't want to get too much into details here. a shotgun, it's really easy. you know what you do with a shotgun. you aim it at the frame of the door. nobody can miss. i don't want to get into details, but that's the best way to protect your home. an ar-15 is so -- it's just not.

and this argument that you need these weapons of war, these are weapons of war. it's the reason why people didn't carry shotguns around in vietnam. they're weapons of war to kill a lot of people. not an intruder in your house. and so all of this argument about protecting your family, your rights, it's all garbage. it's all paranoia. the nra, it's all paranoia, fed by gun manufacturers because they're selling a ton of these guns, and they have been making a ton of money off of it over the past 20 years. >> and we saw that graphic, ten of the 17 deadliest mass shootings in 2012, carried out by ar-15s. their sales go up every time there's one of these shootings. ar-15s are not meant to protect a home. they're not meant for hunting. take an ar-15 to hunt a deer, there's nothing left of the deer. and we have to also remember what we talked about at length

yesterday. these are weapons of war, and what they do to a human body and how they can kill instantaneously, and kill so many. the damage it does to a human being and damage it does to a child. they're unsurvivable wounds. >> we know in private moments when we talk to our friends who have ar-15s, it's fun. go to the range and blow up a target. that's fun. and there are people who believe we should have them as a constitutional right, which there is a constitutional right of course, but the idea that it's there to prevent tyranny, that if the government comes, i'll be ready and take on the government. that's a whole other conversation. >> that's what this is about. and by the way, i have had debates with people about guns. and i've walked -- i said, so, what you're actually saying but won't say, you need one of those guns so you can kill a police officer that's coming.

so you can kill a member of the united states military that you think is come to go get you, and they won't say it. let me let you in on a little secret. if they want to get you, they'll send a drone over your house, and they will melt that ar-15. it is a stupid argue. again, this is an argument that's scalia got into on heller as well. >> that is one of the arguments, but the fun argument, i would just say to people, respecting your rights, where is the ability of your ability to go to a gun range and have fun, versus stopping one of those school shootings. >> some countries let you keep the ar-15 at the gun range, you go to the gun range, get the gun, do your target practice. put it back. you go home. >> there is a policy out there. and here's the best we have come up with as a country, the fema, the fbi, homeland security came

up with run, hide, fight, so rather than doing something on the front end to prevent school shootings, now we're teaching kids, and this came up in the michigan state university shooting a couple of months ago, which is your first thing you should do when you hear the shots inside your school, whether you're at michigan state or a 9-year-old in nashville is to run. if you can't get out of the school, hide, find a closet or something. if you can't hide, fight, a 9-year-old, fight the person with the ar-15. throw a chair at him. do something to slow him or her down so they don't kill more people. that's the best we've come up with. >> what's so deeply offensive to me, jonathan lemire, that's my right. it's not. read the second amendment. see how the second amendment is interpreted by, heller. that's your second amendment right. if your second amendment right is to be able to buy ten ar-15s, then the united states supreme

court would have overturned connecticut's gun regulations. and some of the most aggressive gun control laws in america. they haven't, they've let them stand. they have let them stand because they find them to be constitutional. so that's the thing, and again people will go online, they're going after my second amendment right. they're not. it's a lie. it is a lie that is killing because they convince enough people who aren't well educated on these issues, and don't really understand what the second amendment says, and, again, they create the paranoia that creates this environment, that has them going out buying ar-15s, that have ar-15s all over the place, and have people getting shot and killed in school. >> the right to bear arms does not cover the right to have weapons of war. weapons that were designed for the battlefield whose sole

purpose is to kill as many people as quickly as possible. the nra has stirred up fear, they're going to seize your guns, take it back. that's why we see gun sales go up after every shooting. the nra, they have their annual convention coming up in a couple of weeks in indianapolis, guess who's going to be there. the leading republican presidential candidates, including mike pence, including donald trump. they will be there. there's no effort to separate themselves with what the nra is doing. >> you're not allowed to have a machine gun. not allowed to have a rocket launcher, not allowed to have a lot of things. what's a weapon of war. this is one of the discussions we don't get to have. why is it that a machine gun, a fully automatic weapon is not protected constitutionally, and semiautomatic weapon, ar-15, doesn't allow you to do the kind of damage, why is that -- look, i'm not an expert on guns, and certainly not those weapons. never touched one, don't want to. what is the distinction?

>> i'm sorry, a convention about guns that they celebrate and idolize. >> when there's a public official being there, you cannot bring a gun. and waco, texas, it just happened on saturday -- >> all it takes is a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun. >> why can't they bring their guns. >> they should be able to bring their guns to the nra convention. >> or trump's rally in waco, texas, guns are not permitted. they're deemed a security risk. >> politicians have more protections than the 9-year-old kids. >> they all had to bring a gun on january 6th, donald trump was like don't take the guns away. >> really good point. a gun convention. >> the audience hall where trump, pence or anyone else speaks. >> the 2024 race for president, the new report from "axios" highlights a growing divide between former new jersey governor chris christie and

former president donald trump. >> christie told "axios" he will not support trump in the 2024 election if he earns the republican nomination. christie says trump's recent promotion of january 6th choir at a campaign rally in texas shows trump is not quote, appropriate for the presidency. i have so many thoughts. i have so many thoughts. >> christie says he can't help him, no way. if he himself runs for the gop nomination, he's prepared to play the role of anti-trump. tell us about it, chris christie says he's ready to be the anti-trump prosecutor. what does that mean? >> yeah, well, he's come a long way since 2020 and 2016, as you know well, and also the only republican who has said explicitly that he will not support former president trump if he's the nominee. that's in large part because as my reporting has shown and as you all know, there's no clear never trump constituency in a

republican primary electorate. that's in large part because of what trump has done to the electorate, the way his rivals campaign. it's also because of the way the republican party and its politics have changed to reward someone like trump and his personality, even more so than his policies. there's have you policy differences between trump and someone like governor ron desantis. instead, they are trying to differentiate themselves on personality, and former governor chris christie is going to see whether there's, explicitly as someone who's the opposite as trump. as you know well, never trumpers in 2020 went to joe biden or stayed home. in 2020 in the midterms they supported house democratic candidates or stayed home. i don't see where chris christie's lane exists currently. >> it does seem that the january 6th, what is it, choir of convicts. >> it's convict choir. >> it seems like that has -- convict choir -- is maybe a

little bit of a line for some republicans. at least in the senate, they repulsed to that. >> and what's interesting is just january 6th as itself as an event, i'm interviewing congressman mike gallagher from wisconsin later today for "axios" next web summit, and he said after january 6th he would never support donald trump again. he said recently that nothing has changed since then, so today i'm hoping to get a very clear answer from him on whether he's joining someone like chris christie, whether he is willing to use january 6th and a continuation of what all of that means to drive a constituency within the republican party here in washington to either explicitly not support trump or do something like try to stop him from becoming the nominee. >> we can't help but now go in the way back machine to february of 2016 when chris christie kind of stunned the political world on the eve of super tuesday, stepped out in texas at a press conference and endorsed donald trump offering some sort of legitimacy to the trump campaign

when things were still up in the air for donald trump about whether he might get the nomination. do we expect this to hold for governor christie? is he going to remain a critic throughout? or will he eventually, if he doesn't beat donald trump somewhere, will he fall back in line like most of them seem to? >> in february 2016, i guess it's fair to say that christie and others didn't quite know exactly what donald trump would be like as president, and didn't quite know exactly how much he would change the party and the country and how much he would be a loser for the republican party, down ballot in election cycle after election cycle. christie has been saying in private meetings already in the last few months alone that he wouldn't support trump. the fact that he's now publicly saying it to us at "axios" and putting himself on the record in that way suggests to us that that's not changing. as i mentioned, perhaps there will be others like congressman gallagher, who join a small but loud voice as folks who are explicitly against him.

>> alexi mccammond, thank you so much for being with us. greatly appreciate it. i don't know if you picked up, but she said that donald trump has been a loser down ballot. i don't know if you guys knew this. doesn't scale. they lost in 2017, lost in 2018, lost in 2019, lost in 2020? >> more. >> lost in 2022. >> that's six cycles, i just counted. >> meat ball one may be seeming awfully tasty. >> do not talk to my cap that way. >> listen, by the way, you missed this, like donald trump actually thinks that, like, he's like trying to slide anti-italian slurs. meat ball ron, and he's thinking it's like 1938, oh, those italians, they should go back home. >> yes, he is. then he goes, if it weren't for me, ron would be working at a pizza shop. >> he said parlor.

>> maybe the '50s. >> his commitment, one of the things donald trump is known for is to his commitment to never offending anyone on his ethnic or racial slur. >> he's a little late. >> take him at his word, the famous thing with mark penn, i'm not saying that. some people say barack obama took cocaine 25 times. i will never call him meat ball ron. i would never let the words meat ball ron come out of my mouth because it's an italian slur. you just said it seven times. chris christie put a book out in november of 2021, his book called "republican rescue." and that was when he put the book out and criticized trump for january 6th, and he was asked repeatedly and publicized in the book, given how harshly

critical he was in the book, whether he would say then that he would never support him as nominee. he refused over and over again. he was trying to be anti-trump, and leave an option open with trump supporters. he's taken the turn now, and again, he's on the record, whatever that means, will never support donald trump. i don't know if that will hold. i think we should, like all good god fearing bible toting christians, we should welcome he has found his way to the lord by whatever path. like the j-6 was the thing that pushed him over the edge? not january 6th, the choir. the choir was bad, but the insurrection was the thing that maybe should have tipped him over the edge. >> saying you wanted to terminate the constitution. saying you want your opponent's family -- like you say, we welcome all comers. the first baptist church in

pensacola, if we had to do 17 verses of "just as i am," he would go 17 verses. so we're on the 23rd verse. whatever it takes. chris christie come on up. come on. up next, we're going to play for you the sound from -- >> you have never been to a baptist church, have you? >> i have. >> forgiving the baptists are when heilemann shows up, even they go somewhere down the street might be better for you. it's too much. >> i always get lost on the way. i'm like, over there, there's a 7-eleven. >> we'll play for you the comments from donald trump about ron desantis and the pizza parlor place. >> the pizza parlor place. george w. bush's greatest accomplishments that few americans actually know about. that discussion is ahead.

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it's a mess, actually. all right. we're talking about what is appropriate to wear at work, and we have two examples, one not. one perfect. >> i think everything is appropriate. that's appropriate. look at this. >> mika earlier today said you can say crap but you can't say the word that begins with sh. crap is okay, but the other one

that starts with sh, you can't say that. >> by the way, you were talking about meeting a guy in waco. >> the new pastor. >> at the place that burned down. >> the whole waco thing, i was there for a circus. it was a wild experience because, you know, that pastor, who was quoted in the times last week talking about how trump is god's battering ram. he's like david kuresh, seized is a word i have never heard before but he was quoted in the times. we were on site and talked to the guy and it turns out not only was he colorful, as he had been in the "times" but he was always way down to the road, waco was a false flag operation, and there was a child sex trafficking ring/cocaine distribution facility just down the road from here.

operated by jeb bush, hunter biden. >> the irony of somebody sitting on the site of the waco compound where david kuresh molested little girls is pretty remarkable. >> he was married to a number of 12 yearly girls. let's call it what it is. >> 12-year-old girls and set fire not place, and there's satellite phones that show it. so much of the insanity, the qanon insanity, and the republican insanity we see from the most extreme parts of the party, it all started at waco. and for the irony of qanoners elevated david koresh, cnn

saying it was an islamic terror plot on the anniversary of waco. i called them up, this isn't an islamic plot, i've got whack whackos running around my district. >> mcveigh was there, sat on the highway, watched it, gave out anti-government literature and bumper stickers, pro second amendment rights. koresh, the reason the fbi was there is because he was turning semiautomatic weapons into machine guns. they were converting -- that's what tipped off the atf in the first place. mcveigh did the oklahoma city bombing. when they asked him why he did what he did in oklahoma city, he said waco started this war. this is the 30 year anniversary. we're in the middle of the 51 days. the trump thing was dark and

ominous, not just to go to waco, but to go in a period that's considered the anniversary of the whole 51 days. that's why people were wigged out about trump going there. and that war for a lot of people still going on. >> the twisted thing, it ends with the convict choir, elevating other people who actually tried to overthrow the united states government. tried to overflow an election. you can draw a straight line from there to here. >> it's the thread through everything, remains what donald trump is talking about. looking at the signs behind donald trump, witch hunt, a long way from hope and change or morning in america, or a positive change message. there are people out there, dark forces within the government out to get you, your family, out to get me, and i'm standing in the breach. i'm the one who will push back against it. >> i've got to say, and again, going back to them just losing,

losing, this is why they lose elections year after year. >> when did it become popular to overthrow the american government? when did that become acceptable? i mean, waco, growing up, was synonymous with, you know, not just insurrectionists but crazy town. and of course racists. so i don't understand how that has been kind of remade into something to aspire to but i have to say back to, we were talking about critical race theory and the nonsense around that, part of this is the antihistorical nature of our politics, which is, you know, if americans really understand history as it happened, i don't think we would be sitting here like this right now. but yet we're having to, you know, talk about, explaining to the american people why it is that we don't want another waco. >> i remember being really struck by a member of the trump family in the beginning of the

trump presidency, emphatically saying to us, you know, we don't need to look back at history, actually. you don't need to know it in order -- and it really stuck out. it was an important point that they wanted to make in terms of their approach. >> right. >> that's a strength, though, jon. the strength is if americans are cut off from their history, if americans are cut off from, again, you have people talking about civics classics, talking about understanding the constitution, understanding checks and balances, i have to tell friends from other countries, everything goes so slowly in the united states. you guys can't get anything done. i have to go, yeah, we have sought for 245 years, haven't we? no, we're still here because the system of checks and balances that you find so offensive and that autocrats find so offensive actually works. but our people.

we've as a people been disconnected from our history. we have been disconnected from everything that you're talking about. there's -- listen, there's nothing that we should shield our eyes from when you look at what's been happening in this country since 1619. there's nothing. we need to know all of that. so we can do better moving forward because two truths exist. thomas jefferson and other founders owned slaves. and thomas jefferson was considered a loathsome creature by a lot of people who also owned slaves. he's not in anybody's hall of fame. he also created the document that freed more human beings than any other political philosopher in the history. it's why martin luther king used his words during the civil rights movement, why frederick douglass in the 1800s used his

words. these two truths sit beside each other. it's not all black and white. but that's what trumpists want you to think. that's what extremists on all sides want you to think. that it's all bad or all good. i could go on forever on this one. >> i'll tell you one last thing about waco. i agree with everything you said. there's an appropriate amount of reporting about the j6 choir. >> we call them the convict choir because they're convicts. it's a convict choir. go ahead. >> the convict choir. it is truly, i mean, in terms of a chilling thing to see, trump, hand over his heart, and knowing he's going to be doing this now presumably for the rest of the campaign, that's how he's going to be doing the national anthem, his voice reads the pledge of allegiance. one of the creepiest moments. the other creepy moment, right to what will see said a second ago, the notion of like the

shadowy forces, and in the '90s, the black cop helicopters, and he said in the speech, these words very close to, i'm quoting, people come to me, mr. president, who's a bigger threat to the country, is it china, is it russia. i say no. i say it's people working inside the government, and this was the list, like mitch mcconnell, nancy pelosi, chuck schumer, joe biden, and the doj. came right out and said it. who's the biggest threat to our country, it's not china, it's not russia. it's those people. not like some big deep state. he's naming names of people who he says are the most dangerous threat to our way of life. >> exactly. which of course puts those -- >> senate minority later. >> puts their lives in danger. yeah, he says the senate minority leader is more dangerous than xi in china or

putin in russia. says nancy pelosi who's no longer the speaker, more dangerous than vladimir putin who's committing war crimes after war crimes every day. it's this glorification, again, of convicts, the glorification of breaking of laws that separates donald trump, might connect him with a shrinking base, but separates him from swing voters all across america. >> some republicans may see ron desantis as like their get away from trump. and trump sees that. here are donald trump's comments on fox news monday night about his previous endorsement of ron desantis for governor. >> ron came to see me, tears in his eyes, he said i need you to do me a big favor. first he asked for the meeting. then he asked me for the favor. i said what's the favor. will you endorse me?

but, again, a lot of people fought for me. i said, let's give it a shot, ron, okay. and he was desperate. ics i said okay. he wrote it out, i thought it was terrible. i changed it and made it great. i gave him a great endorsement. i got him the nomination. he would be working in either a pizza parlor place or a law office right now. >> joining us now -- >> no, no, no, we can't just walk past that. >> there's so much there. >> tears in his eyes. he was weeping. >> why didn't you say he knelt before me with tears in his eyes. add in more color. and then of course the pizza parlor place. >> they're a new yorker. >> he eats pizza, by the way, with a fork. >> correct.

>> and then throws it against the wall. >> he says either a pizza parlor or a law firm, he's a smart guy. he went to harvard. >> this is his whole, i'm not going to call him meat ball ron. you will never hear him calling me meat ball ron. that would not be respectful to italians, and then he goes, he says it like you said, here, and working in a pizza parlor place. or a law firm. come on. >> let's bring in now with new reporting on ron desantis, senior writer for "the dispatch" david drucker, and cnbc founder tom rogers, he argues that desantis did something that made himself unelectable as president. i got to start with that. what made him unelectable? >> trump may still be the nomination front runner but at some point primary voters may wake up with four possible indictments around his neck that he's not electable, and ron desantis is the presumptive

alternative, but desantis really stepped in it. it wasn't the ukraine comments which he walked back, and he may not be able to straddle that issue, it's the abortion issue. and florida is a state now with a 15-week abortion law, not the most extreme, restrictive, but not the most extreme, and the florida state legislature came back into session. and they proposed a six-week ban. the republicans there. and it was something that also included no abortion pill. and ron desantis basically said he would sign it. committed to support it. and so now you have a possible alternative nominee who has stepped into what we saw in the midterms was about as alienating an issue as could be to suburban independent women voters, which if you're going to win the swing

states, you got to win back that constituency. and we saw how emotional gut issue that is, a six-week ban, many women won't know they're pregnant, combined with a two-appointment delay requirement in florida really puts it in a position that an awful lot of women will have no access to abortion services. and it's just an issue that i can't see him being able to walk back or straddle. and i think he couldn't have stepped in it more in terms of making him unelectable. >> the signal couldn't have been so clear on the issue of abortion, swung so many elections across the country. david drucker, we know how popular he is there. we know he won by 30 points in a wipeout. the question remains, though, how can he perform on a national stage, and before we get to that, i'll put to you, is there any doubt from people you talked to down in florida, that he will

run? >> there's no doubt that he's going to run. i spent a few days in tallahassee talking to republicans who have worked closely with him over the past four years. some are true believers, they are all convinced he is going to run, and of course he's taking every step you take when you're planning to run for president. the interesting thing, and there are a number of questions i addressed with sources, do you think he can handle trump, and there are things we already know about donald trump and don't work in a general election context, but in the context of a republican primary, he still has yet to be beaten as a presidential candidate. and he will go after you in ways that even some of the most aggressive, even politicians we think rather shameless wouldn't go after you, personal attacks they won't make challenges to the truth that they won't levee. trump will do all of that. and the question is desantis, is

he nimble enough and thick-skinned enough not to let trump control him, not to be constantly reactive, but to fight in a way that shows republican primary voters, i'm going to give you what you want, and that is the ultimate fighter and somebody who you think can win and take on the people, democrats, the media that you don't like, and there's still some indecision there. some of them think you can and some of them are not so sure. >> it's very funny because whistleblower far away from an actual election. it's very funny over the past week or so, everybody is like, oh, ron desantis is finished. he's gone down in the poles and we've got such a long way to go. that could change so quickly. i'm curious, what are you hearing from desantis's camp about the latest -- the latest fretting from republicans and also from pundits that trump has desantis easily at heal.

>> completely not concerned really one bit. i mean, look, you know this, joe, when you're a political professional advising a candidate, you're paid to be concerned about anything. you know, i was in tallahassee around the time that ron desantis was referencing donald trump's issue with the new york district attorney and the way he talked about i don't understand issues with porn stars, and he gave that interview to piers morgan, where he talked about, made fun of the nickname, i don't care what you call me, just call me a winner. i was talking to people about how he handled that, waited to do it on his own terms. didn't get overly concerned about all the fretters and polling and people like me that wondered where his campaign that doesn't exist yet were headed and they were all rather impressed and felt that even if it doesn't work in the end that he's handling trump exactly the

way you need to, and you get the sense from team desantis that they just aren't going to worry too much, and maybe it's because from an eagle standpoint, the governor thinks highly of himself. the only way you take on trump and project leadership particularly in today's republican party is to not get spun up by everybody else's criticism. >> all right. senior writer for "the dispatch," david drucker. thank you so much. let's show that moment where he was talking to piers morgan. >> what's your favorite nickname that trump has given you so for, ron desanctimonious, or meat ball ron. >> i don't know how to spell desanctimonious. i don't know what it means. it's long, it's got a lot of vowels, you can call me whatever you want, just as long as you call me a winner.

>> i'm going to say something that -- off what david drucker said, i may turn to salt. please forgive me. i'm not comparing anybody to anybody. >> oh, but you're about to. >> i'm not comparing ron desantis to barack obama or vice versa. so both sides don't hate me on this. i will say, though, desantis sitting back and being like, i don't really care. listen, and by the way, you look at how he let the piers morgan interview come in, it worked, right? you heard one obama person after another obama person, one fundraiser after another fundraiser, that always be like, he just doesn't understand. he doesn't understand how politics work. he would go to the back of the bus and go, are you guys looking at polls, and he goes just stop, go to the front, and there was this distance, this detachment. the opposite of what trump has.

it worked for obama against trump. maybe it works for desantis. >> i mean, that's the thing about, you know, barack obama as kind of he had a sense of and continues to, he's cool. he's cool. and, you know, donald trump is a bully. >> right. >> and so what do you do with bullies, you don't give them energy. >> exactly. >> and you let them kind of peter out, have their temper tantrum and then you move on. donald trump is a bully, and he doesn't have to be much more than that. >> yeah. we'll have to let the voters decide. >> we shall see. >> the abortion issue may be terrible general election politics but very smart primary politics for desantis. trump has moved away from anything that looks like a extreme position on abortion, thinking it is not a winner for

republicans. the pro lifers are moving away from him, looking for a national abortion ban, so that fundamentalist, right to life constituency is a pretty big constituency in republican primaries. desantis is truly trying to grab it, make sure he has it. he's not going to get the extreme maga trump voter and so it is smart politics. he's not going to be able to walk away from that in the general election, and when it comes to smart, independent suburban women, how he's going to patch that up in states he must win. >> all republicans are the dog that caught the truck. they don't know what to do with it. they wanted roe v. wade overturned for 50 years, they got their wish, and politically, for a lot of them, it's been disastrous. >> newsweek editor at large, tom rogers, and john heilemann and mara gay, thanks as well. >> you have to explain, he's on

grandpa watch. >> so exciting. and president biden kicked off his investing in america tour at a semiconductor manufacturing facility in north carolina yesterday. we'll speak with commerce department official adrienne elrod about the administration's efforts to bring jobs back from overseas. plus, the unlikely origin of one of the most popular video games in the world, now the subject of a new film. we'll be joined by the creators of tetris. >> no way? >> ahead on "morning joe." >> they have wasted some of my time, a lot of my time. d some oy time, a lot of my time ♪ ...i'm over 45. ♪ ♪ i realize i'm no spring chicken. ♪ ♪ i know what's right for me. ♪ ♪ i've got a plan to which i'm sticking. ♪ ♪ my doc wrote me the script. ♪ ♪ box came by mail. ♪ ♪ showed up on friday. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ (group) i did it my way! ♪

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america's coming back, we're determined to lead the world in manufacturing of semiconductors, we invented semiconductors in the united states of america. >> president biden kicking off his investing in north america tour in north carolina

yesterday. he spoke at semiconductor manufacturer wolf speed, highlighting legislation passed last year including the chips and science act which contained $52 billion in subsidies and tax credits for companies that manufacture chips here in the united states. so how is it going? joining us now in her new role as the director of external and government affairs for the u.s. department of commerce's chips for america program, adrienne elrod is back on "morning joe." >> adrienne, thank you so much. i have to ask you a historical question. we see during covid, the united states was dependent on china, whether it was for masks or whether it was for other medical supplies, whether it was for pills, and we still are dependent on them making our drugs, our pharmaceutical drugs. and you could go down the list of things, but you got to put chips near the top of the list. i wonder, how did the united

states ever get so dependent on someone who considers us their enemy for one of the most important drivers of our economy? >> well, joe, first of all, it's so great to be back with you and mika and willie, and the whole crew. i could talk about this for two hours, but we don't have that amount of time. the bottom line is, to your point, joe, we created the technology. we engineered chips here in the united states, and we allowed over the course of several decades the manufacturing to go to places like china with the bipartisan chips and science act, we are getting the manufacturing back to the united states. we are designing a lot of chips here. we're just not making them here. so that's one of the reasons why president biden and secretary raimondo and cabinet officials are hitting the road and talking about how these investments in the chips and science act and other legislation that president biden helped spearhead and pass are reimagining america's industrial base, getting people back to work in some of these manufacturing jobs that are necessary to make sure that we have the capabilities to

makeshifts here in the united states. >> so got to correct you on one thing. she said we have two hours. >> we have four. >> 16 hours a week. that's true. >> it's crazy. the president was at warp speed. this company, this will create 1,800 jobs. i'm just curious. what is the latest now that chips has been announced and been in place for months. are companies getting on board, and you know, there are some critics who say there's too much red tape. all of these different requirements. are they getting on board or are they getting cut off at the requirements? >> absolutely, mika. i think one of the things you're talking about is the child care policy. we are requiring any applicant that is receiving over $150 million, and by the way, taxpayer dollars, that is what the chips bill is funded by, taxpayer dollars that they have some sort of child care policy that they're enacting for their companies. the reason why we're doing this is for a couple of things.

number one, mika, as you know, we've got a tight labor market, some places, the unemployment rate is 3.5%, some places, 4%. if we're actually going to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars and get people back to work, we've got to make sure that we have the mechanisms to do that. we're breaking down every single barrier. mika, as you know, the lack of ability for women in particular to get back in the work force, the number one reason why they can't oftentimes is a lack of child care access. so we're not creating some sort of vehicle here to advance social policy. we are simply making sure that we are being good stewards of taxpayer dollars, that we can actually fill the jobs in these large scale fabrication facilities to make the semiconductor chips with the work force necessary. that's all this is. we are asking several companies to do several other things too. we just released our work force development guide earlier this week which sort of provides a

road map and a template for companies to use to determine how they can implement policies. we're trying to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars, and it comes under the name of national security which is the over arching reason why we need to get the chips, semiconductor industry in the united states. >> adrienne, exactly that, so much is about the rivalry with china, tell us about the national security guardrails you mentioned being put in place to prevent that the technology isn't used for maligned purposes. >> thank you so much for asking that, jonathan, we released our china guardrail policy last week as a rule. and we are making sure that, again, going back to being good stewards of u.s. taxpayer dollars, not used for maligned purposes. we're making sure companies are not able to expand facilities in places like china, places like iran that could be used for adversarial purposes against the united states. and again, the reason why we're

doing this, jonathan is we want to make sure that we are manufacturing those leading edge legacy chips that are very necessary to, you know, fuel our electric vehicles, to operate our phones, our ipads, our computers, all the things that we use in our every day lives that we don't even realize have these really important complex semiconductors in them. we want to make sure we're making them here, and again, the companies cannot use taxpayer dollars to -- even if it's not intentional to do something that could end up back firing on the united states. >> i'd love to have her back and get an update on how this is going, and how many companies are signing up. adrienne elrod in her new capacity as director of external and government affairs for the u.s. department of commerce chips program. adrian, great to see you. great to have you back on the show. thanks for coming on today. >> you too, thanks, mika. and joining us now, former

cia officer marc polymeropoulos, an nbc news security and intelligence analyst, his recent book is entitled "leadership lessons from the cia", and author and msnbc political analyst, anan, and his recent book entitled "the persuaders at the front lines for hearts, and democracy," great to have you on board as we start the 3rd hour of "morning joe," and we begin with tennessee republican congressman tim burshett who doubled down on the comments he made about the nashville school shooting. it was hours after the tragedy in his home state where three 9-year-olds were killed, and he told reporters, there's no way to fix gun violence. take a listen to what he had to say yesterday. >> you want to legislate evil, it's just not going to happen. we need real revival in this country. i think, you know, christian

ministers and people of faith, that's what we got to have in this country. we've got evil in this country, and everybody just need to tone down the rhetoric a little bit because all that does is gin it up on both sides, and they point the finger, and nothing happens because if you think washington is going to fix this problem, you're wrong. they're not going to fix this problem. they are the problem. >> it doesn't concern you that other countries don't have this level of gun violence? >> other countries don't have our freedom either. we've got incredible freedom, and when people abusethat freedom, that's what happens. >> the freedom to buy weapons of war? beyond callous. just the impotence. we're too weak to do anything, he says, we're so helpless. we just have to, he says, keep watching 9-year-old children get

blown away in classes. >> can't do anything. >> marc polymeropoulos, i hate to state the obvious but if it had been a muslim connected with isis that went into that classroom yesterday, all hell would have broken loose. nashville would have been shut down. the country would have been shut down, and we would have been sending fighter jets to syria, and this dude would be the first saying that we needed to do it. it's like i said, if muslims were the ones attacking on january 6th, they would have been shot from the roof tops. but if it's domestic terrorism, and it has to do with ar-15s and something that the nra may

disagree with, oh, we can't do anything, i wonder what he and everybody else said after 9/11. did they say, we can't do anything? when you were going around chasing terrorists for 15 years, i know it was tough. but did you have commanders in the field saying, we can't do anything, you know, these guys, they live in caves. they go from -- they have burner phones. i mean, can you believe the impotence of these republicans when it comes to protecting our children. >> well, joe, i think the tennessee congressman's comments is probably the worst leadership take i have ever seen. i think back to my time at cia at places in afghanistan or iraq or syria or yemen, where we were asked to do the impossible, you know, george tenet, the former cia director once said at cia we don't do easy. i think of my friends who spent a decade chasing osama bin laden. sometimes the u.s. government

never knew where he was, so the notion that we would sit back and take a knee when thousands of our children are being killed i think is insulting to me and insulting to a lot of americans, and what i don't understand and you see the consensus in washington now, and it's from actually both republicans and democrats is that nothing can be done, and i would challenge that. i mean, i think of what -- there was a poster put up in cia in the counter terrorism headquarters the day after 9/11 that said every day is september 12th. that has to be the mantra from capitol hill. and in particular from the democrats as well. just because it's hard, doesn't mean we don't tackle this problem. republican congressman andy ogles of tennessee whose district includes the covenant school responded to questions on whether the house would act to put forward solutions on school shootings. look at this. >> we don't want to jump to any conclusions. there's still a lot more information about this case that hasn't been let out to the public, and i think ultimately

what this does is highlight some of the mental health issues, the mental health crisis we have in this country, and that needs to be the real conversation that we're having right now. how did this individual slip through the cracks. what could have been done to get them help. >> by the way, that's the guy who -- was he not the guy whose christmas card -- >> he and his family posed for the christmas card carrying weapons. and he was asked, do you regret it. >> of course not. my family exercised my right to bear arms. that was his response. >> the shooting happened in his district. the glorification of weapons of war. so perverse to do that. not christian nationals, but traditional christians called the prince of peace.

the savior who said blessed are the peacemakers. can go on and on, but this hopelessness, and kevin mccarthy, look at this guy, i mean, he's afraid of his own shadow, children are slaughtered from classrooms, and kevin mccarthy is afraid to say anything about it. >> what happened in nashville obviously is incredible serious situation. >> why don't you say something. why? >> that's a terrible thing that happened in the school, my thoughts and prayers go out. and the heroism for the police officers, thank god for the officers, we mourn the loss of six people including three

nine-year-olds. >> nothing he has put out, nothing. >> when you are put in power by marjorie taylor greene, and you say you will do anything to protect her and others from the most extreme edges of the republican party, of american politics, you're afraid of your own shadow. he's afraid of his own shadow. the impotence, the weakness, the coward, it's crazy. the first guy, mr. we can't do anything. >> you're elected. >> they're aggressively going after drag queen shows. they are aggressively going after all of these phoney issues like calling things that aren't crt, crt, that's freaking librarians out, and teachers out because they don't want to get fired. they're pulling hank aaron books from the shelf. they'll go after that because they see that as a great threat

to children. but as john heilemann asked, what's the body count for the so-called wokeness, which by the way, a word that's used so much, it literally means nothing anymore. i used to read stories on wokeness all the time because it was an issue that fascinated me. if everything is woke, then nothing is woke. but they declare these phoney wars, and yet won't confront the enemy that's standing right in front of their children with a gun. >> you know, i think the silence and the dithering is morally abhorrent, i think the impotence is the point. they're not failing to execute their politics. that is their politics. and here's why. they fail to do anything to prevent this predictable, foreseeable, set of gun catastrophes, the catastrophes happen predictably. >> another is going to happen,

and another. >> think what happens each time. more people as you were saying earlier in the broadcast, more people buy guns, more people acquire the ideology of guns. they get demoralized about government which helps this extremist right ideology. and it is sickening to watch them try to claim the idea of freedom. for me, the freedom will remain alive or have my kids remain alive kind of comes first. >> also, though, they talk about a freedom -- they talk a freedom that they have made up in their own twisted heads because they have been whipped into a paranoid frenzy by the nra for that years. from thugs when bush 41 quit, all the way through. now they're claiming the second amendment protects things it just doesn't protect. they should read scalia's own

words in heller. it doesn't protect the right to carry around weapons of war. >> their position, the republican party is waging a war on cops. those cops that you saw in the incredible body cam footage, those cops probably love to be running in on a knife incident. >> even a handgun. >> i don't think those cops and their spouses love to be running in on someone with seven weapons of war. so why don't republicans respect the lives of police officers. >> of anything. >> one more thing briefly. it is important that the opposition to this, democrats and others against children dying in schools, have a one-way ticket to schools in the morning, if you don't create a contrast then you continue to fuel the sense of demoralization that people have that nothing can be done. nothing is going to be done.

we should see action. whatever executive things you can do, sweep into action, go down there. you know, sometimes there's a kind of passive wonky discussion on the well meaning side of this issue. we need a dramatic flurry of action to show people that there is a one side that thinks we can do nothing, i can do nothing, and another side that can do things to solve this. >> that argument from the one congressman from east tennessee that we heard there is effectively saying, look, this is the price of freedom. if you want a free society where 9-year-olds are going to get slaughtered in their presbyterian school or college kids in the dining hall will get shot in east lansing, michigan, the list goes on and on. there's a better way than that, but a better way of stopping what we're seeing almost every day in this country now. >> willie, great question, and it's a really easy answer, and it has to do with talking to police officers.

you know, i've come on this show many times as i go around the country, teaching leadership to cops. and i got a call last night from a friend of mine, he's a senior official at an east coast, or big city police department in the northeast. and he said that there is no cop that he talks to who believes that an individual should have an ar-15. there is no cop that he talks to that is against red flag laws. there's no cop that he talks to that thinks background checks are an infringement. talk to cops, talk to big city police departments who are actually allies, and they are would be allies of the democratic party on this, and they absolutely are not in any way supportive of this kind of hyper individualism that allows for, you know, almost wild west mentality. so there's a way to do this, and i think my argument, again, what i mentioned before is, the democrats can't stay silent. you know, you don't take a knee. republicans certainly are, but

democrats should step up. this is a plague, an epidemic that is hurting our country, and for god sake, this is the time to leave. that would be my plea, and police officers are a natural ally. >> marc polymeropoulos, thank you very much. it is interesting that the republicans won't even stand up for their cops, when you think about it that way. >> and cops are, again, they're terrified. >> we've seen it. >> in most jurisdictions having to deal with this. and we saw uvalde, we saw the complete opposite here. talk, quickly, if you will, about community. sense of community. civic pride. going back to what john kennedy said, we used to believe that with our rights came responsibilities. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. we all have a stake in this republican, yes, a given right,

but with those rights come responsibilities, as marc said over the last 20 years ago there's been this hyper individualism. where people say, i want these rights, i have these rights, and they declare rights that don't even exist in the constitution of the united states. but they will say, as we heard these politicians say, well, you know what, let's not do anything about the little 9-year-old girls getting slaughtered. let's not do anything about the principals getting slaughtered. let's talk about these constitutional rights that i really don't have but i'm claiming. how do we rebalance our rights and our responsibilities, and create a more civil society like this country had for 200 years. >> such a great question, and you know, i think in many ways we have allowed that kind of hyper individualism, that hyper individualistic idea of rights that marc was talking about.

we have allowed the extremist right to claim that they are the monopolists in understanding what rights are and what freedom is. and i think it's really important for those of us who have a different understanding of freedom, or more expansive understanding of freedom. i think the nra view, the kind of notion that that is freedom and what we're asking for is something else. that's our failure also. we need to win that argument, and we are winning that argument. >> you're taking away my second amendment rights. too often that's met with silence, instead of somebody saying, i've already sworn once on this show, i better not do it again. somebody, well, that is just rank horse crap. you don't have that second amendment right, and this is what scalia said, this is what connecticut has done. this is what new york has done. this is what california has done and all of these laws have been upheld.

the supreme court has allowed them to stay in place. you're lying, you don't have that right. my child has a right to go to school and be safe from weapons of war. >> it's time to put them on the back foot. why do you hate police officers? >> why are you waging a war on our cops? why do you only defend people's rights until they are born. why are the unborn rights a core part of your platform, and the moment a child leaves the womb, they are on their own in the united states of america, according to this extreme philosophy. i think we need to -- and i would love to see this starting with president biden on down. frankly, excuse the word, weaponize this issue for good. make 2024 a referendum on freedom, all kinds of freedom. the freedom to have great jobs in america, the freedom to live, the freedom to vote. the freedom to go to school safely, and also come home. >> not be afraid. >> you have to go to bed at

night. >> i'm tired of letting these people who kind of shoot beer bottles in their backyard, i'm tired of letting them claim freedom as their unique inher tans. >> let's bring in ritchie torrez of new york, thank you so much for being with us, congressman. you have been hearing us saying why, why, why. help us out here. what's the best approach to the horrors that we see unfolding, whether it's in a buffalo supermarket or whether it's in a nashville school? >> i'm speechless, what about the freedom from fear, freedom from the fear and reality of gun violence. you know, in a rational world, there would be a ban on assault weapons and weapons of war in a rational world, guns would be registered and safely stored. gun sales would be subject to

thorough background checks. but there's nothing rational about a political system that allows one senator from a state smaller than the bronx to filibuster gun safety on behalf of 330 million americans, and my message to my republican colleagues is if you're not here to protect public safety, if you're not here to protect children from mass murder, then what are you here for? you have no business being in congress. >> 100%. >> we're talking in the context of the nashville shooting about ar-15s, the gun used almost always in the big mass shootings, but in your district until the south bronx, hand guns cause so much violence in this country. is there conversation, talk about fixing that piece of the problem as well on the national level? >> look, what we need is common sense gun safety regulations. america is the only country in the industrialized world that

has an epidemic of gun violence and mass shootings. that's a public policy choice. allowing children to fall victim to mass murder and mass shootings is a public policy choice that has been made in washington, d.c. by republicans and i agree with you, it's a war on law enforcement, and it's a war on public safety, and it has to come to an end. we're not advocating for the elimination of guns. automobiles are dangerous, and we have safety standards that make automobiles safer. we should have safety standards that make guns safer. that is common sense but republicans are at war with common sense. >> congressman, as you know, the house financial services committee will be hearing from multiple treasury and fdic officials today in light of the collapse of the silicon valley bank this past month. you will be filing a bill that will require the government to monitor social media for warning signs for other banks in response to the collapse of svb. tell us more about that bill and what we can expect from today's hearing. >> well, the sheer speed of the

silicon valley bank run is historically unprecedented. so in 2008, washington mutual, which was the largest bank failure in american history saw the loss of $16.7 billion over the course of ten days. by contrast, silicon valley bank saw the loss of $42 billion in the span of a few hours. the difference between then and now is social media. social media enables financial panic to spread on a scale and at a pace that we have never seen before, and so i'm introducing legislation that would require banking regulators to consider a new kind of risk, which is social media risk and i worry that a malicious foreign adversary could manufacture financial panic on social media to destabilize the american banking system. >> democratic congressman ritchie torrez, thank you very much for coming on this morning. and anan, thank you very much. >> i'll connect the two issues

briefly. it took them about 48 hours to respond to the silicon valley bank meltdown, so turns out the government is capable of acting very fast. maybe school children in america should open large bank accounts in silicon valley bank and other important banks if they want the united states government to pay attention to them. it seems we are able to solve certain people's problems very expeditiously, just not those of our children. still ahead on "morning joe," a federal judge says former vice president mike pence must testify in the justice department's probe into donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. pretty big news. we'll take a look at where things stand with that case. plus, the behind the scenes look at how tetris became a worldwide phenomenon. it's the subject of a brand new movie for apple tv and we'll talk to the game's creators.

as we go to break, i had the chance to talk to pfizer's chief corporate affairs officer sally sussman, how she helped build trust for the covid-19 vaccine. in the latest interview for my podcast, sally shared her insights from her decades long career in business, politics, and communications, and she offered a master class on communicating with intention and authenticity. take a listen. >> i've worked for nine ceos over the course of my career at three companies and all of them were good and special, but the ones that were great were the ones who could articulate a vision. they were intentional about the things that they said. they could bring a group, like a large company along with them. so whether you're a leader in politics or a big company or your own small business, your ability to be a breakthrough

dynamic leader rests in something many people write off as a soft skill, communications. my argument for these leaders is that it's a rock hard competency. and it's as important as accounting, inventory, manufacturing. >> you can check out the interview on "mika straight up" and tomorrow on "morning joe," sally will join us here to talk about her new bok "breaking through, communicating to open minds, move hearts and change the world," you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. rld," you'r "morning joe." we'll be right back. two pills relieve allergy headache pain? and the congestion that causes it! flonase headache and allergy relief. psst! psst! all good! (bright music) - [announcer] what if there is a hearing aid

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edmund burke, all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. >> jon meacham, you know, my oldest son lived by you in nashville. this is right down the street from where he lived and right by where you live. they know families who unfortunately were tragically, tragically touched by this. this horror, talk about it, and how it's just shattered your community. >> well, it's about a mile away from where we live. about a mile away from our girls' school. they went into lockdown on monday. an 8th grader and a senior in high school with their

classmates, not knowing how the violence would unfold. my high school senior daughter yesterday simply said they were 9 years old. they were 9 years old. and we had a long and painful conversation touching on a lot of the issues you have been raising on monday night, which is why can't the public sector respond in some way to try to take the means, the means of these massacres down. how can we not lower the temperature and reduce the possibility. you won't get rid of all of it, but my view of this for a long time has been you can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. i'm won of those responsible gun

owners you're talking about. i cannot imagine wanting one of these weapons. my great grandfather, my -- i have a gun that my great, great, great grandfather made. that's just a whole different thing. the culture you're talking about that defends these assault weapons and the centrality of them now in the american's imagination, particularly on the right is really a post-1968 phenomenon. you know, it's something that developed. >> jon, can i interrupt you a second, a guy that you know well, president bush, bush 41, a lifelong member of the nra, a lot of his friends were, and in 1964, wayne lapierre started to radicalize, and they started

calling federal authorities jack booted thugs, and bush said i've had enough of this. other people who saw the nra as something to belong to so their children could take gun safety courses and use how to use a gun safely, a lot of those people just quit the nra. >> it was in the wake of oklahoma city. the nra put out a fundraising letter referring to federal agents as jack booted thugs. president bush in houston sat down at his word processer wrote a letter saying that it violated -- such an attack on federal agents violated his concept of duty to country and service and was not at all in sync with the federal agents that he knew, that he spent every day with them with the secret service and resigned his lifetime nra membership. that was two years after former president reagan came out in favor of the brady bill, so it's

another example of how far from reality and sensibility this conversation has gone. the reason i bring up my family conversation is i tried as we are doing right now to explain this culturally. you know, why passing this kind of legislation is so hard, and i felt so inadequate. i would say, well, you know, this has a lot to do with the reaction, one of the great things society did was the gun control act of 1968. and my children would look at me the way you look at me most mornings. >> with love and admiration. >> it was what are you talking about. >> i get it. >> they were 9 years old. >> right. >> i'm talking about the last act of the great society. they said they were 9 years old.

so all i'm saying on the policy front is we did this for ten years. these shootings, i think the statistics will show you, went down. we did not lose our liberties. the government did not come for us. it's a -- it's not a sensible position. and to those who say, and there will be many of them, many of them in federal office, you can't stop every shooting. here's my response. what if it had stopped this one? >> right. >> what if those 9 year olds, that head of school, that custodian, that substitute teacher were going to school this morning? >> we're going to have much more on this straight ahead, including a live report from nashville. what we're learning this morning about the shooter, the victims, and the investigation. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. d the investigation. "morning joe" is back in just a moment with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting,

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nbc news has learned a federal judge has ordered former vice president mike pence to comply with a subpoena. >> i'm shocked said no one in the world. >> in the investigation into former president donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. that's according to a source familiar with the decision. the ruling issued on monday requires pence to testify before the grand jury tied to the probe led by special counsel jack smith. smith is currently investigating trump's actions surrounding january 6th and his mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. >> this guy, he's not coasting down the hill. >> no. >> he's not saying, i'm just going to take this easy. >> yeah. >> i mean, he's -- he's aggressively trying to get the facts lined up to see if a crime was committed. >> he is. and as many people wait to see what's going to happen in lower

manhattan, if there will be an indictment of the former president, the truth of the matter is what jack smith is looking at, even what's happening in georgia may end up being much more consequential here and worse for donald trump in the long run. the judge ruled that while pence does have some limited protections because of the speech or debate clause of the institution, which can protect lawmakers from being compelled to discuss legislative activities, that immunity does not prevent him from testifying about conversations related to alleged illegality on trump's part. it's not clear if pence will appeal the ruling. here's what he said last night on the right wing pro trump channel "newsmax." >> i have nothing to hide. you have a constitution to uphold. i upheld the constitution on january 6th. i believe we did our duty that day under the constitution of the united states. we're currently speaking to our attorneys about the proper way forward, and as i said, we'll have a decision in the coming days. >> willie.

>> a lot of modifiers. you know what else, "newsmax," i saw you reading the prompter. by the right wing. pro trump. i don't want to start the whole conversation. is really right, right wing used to mean conservative. there's a difference between being conservative and being a trumpist. >> right. exactly. >> i never say conservative. you can't even say they're right wing because right wing usually denotes somebody that's pro military. >> exactly. >> pro law enforcement. >> and they're not. >> they hate the military. they always talked about how they'd rather not. they hate law enforcement if law enforcement was like the fbi or capitol hill cops, that they're getting in the way of their sort of radical anarchic behavior. they're not even a right wing.

>> no, and also they just spent an entire in waco, texas, celebrating the people. >> they have the leading candidate for president for the nomination for the presidency praising -- they have put together a choir of convicts. >> it's deranged. >> they beat the crap out of cops. >> there you go. >> with an american flag, willie, and four died. >> yeah. >> and their families directly blame the assault, the rioters. they defecated in the capitol. can you imagine if left wingers did all of that and then -- >> they'd go crazy. >> and then bernie sanders says, i have a good idea, let's make a choir. have a choir, we can celebrate. we can celebrate the fact that

they beat the hell out of cops, and then they defecated on the capitol. we can do that, right? that will help us. i mean, think about that. what would "newsmax" say, what would fox say? they are openly praising rioters. >> you can see bernie at burlington, vermont, having a big rally with a big puffer coat on, bring out the choir. it's deeply sick, actually. it's deeply sick. >> oh, by the way, here's the choir on their debut. >> these are your heroes. these are your heroes. >> this is the hero of the republican party. these are the heroes of donald trump. these are the heroes of mpg. this is who they love, willie. >> they're visiting them in prison as if it's birmingham in '63. let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent,

ken dilanian. let's get back to mike pence and the subpoena. he's talking about it's up to him, his choice, he's going to talk about it with his people, the subpoena is a court order to show up there. what happens from here? >> that's right. if there's an effort to appeal the ruling, and may well be, mike pence is going to have to testify. and most experts believe the justice department has a strong hand here, particularly on executive privilege. there are two issues here. pence argued that he might be subject to executive privilege, but also the speech and debate clause, because he was presiding over the senate, and this is about the trump team's efforts to pressure pence to act in his ceremonial role. he researched it with his people. he concluded he had no authority to do anything but preside and the trump team kept pressing him, and people like john eastman, and special counsel

jack smith wants to get his testimony about that, because he may have information that no one else has, particularly about conversations with former president donald trump, and so he's going to have to testify most likely, and this is part of flurry of rulings as you guys know, in recent days where the special counsel has won on these issues and has gotten court orders to compel the testimony of a variety of former aides to former president trump including chief of staff mark meadows, and people like dan scavino, and senior national security aides like the former director of national intelligence john ratcliffe and robert o'brien, they're going to have to testify in front of the grand jury that's investigating january 6th, but even more dangerous, i think, than any of that stuff was the ruling requiring the president's only lawyer to testify in a documents case, and he did that last week in front of the grand jury.

that is very very dangerous for donald trump, guys. >> ken dilanian, thank you very much. greatly appreciate it. one of our next guests is highlighting what he calls the single best policy of his lifetime. nick cristoff with an overlooked part of president george w. bush's legacy. that's ahead on "morning joe." o bush's legacy. that's ahead on "morning joe." i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. with skyrizi 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. ♪♪ ♪ it's my moment so i just gotta say ♪ ♪ nothing is everything ♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save.

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time to take a look at the morning papers. we begin in new jersey where the courier post reports the number of anti-semitic incidents has reached historic levels. according to the anti-defamation league, the state saw a 10% increase in anti-jewish incidents last year. nationwide there were 3700 reported incidents. that's up 36%, increased from the year before, and the highest

the organization has ever seen since it started tracking acts of hate back in 1979. >> again, not a coincidence. it's just like the guns, not a coincidence. you have some of after charlottesville who says there are good people on both sides. you have donald trump inviting neo-nazis and anti-semites to eat with him, it sends a message. >> it sends a message, but i think we like to pretend it doesn't. there's such plausible deniability. this attitude i was just suggesting something. i think last week when alvin bragg was called, i don't even wanting to repeat it on air, it was anti-semitic and anti-black racist slur used. those things give cover to people with guns, god forbid, to do whatever they feel like doing in their sick heads. and anybody who is a black person or a jewish person in

america knows that. we know that. so all you have to do is ask us. we understand what it means. and, you know, we make it our business to know how to survive. so i really -- it's disturbing, it's depressing. and i have to just say on a generational note, i grew up with the grandchildren of holocaust survivors. holocaust survivors came to our classrooms. it was just not that long ago. you would think that the lessons would hold at least this long. >> it's not that long ago. >> they're not. and so you don't have to pull the trigger to put someone in danger. and i think that's where it is right now. >> the wichita eagle has a front page feature on kansas lawmakers considering moving away from caucus elections. the gop-controlled state legislature is fast tracking a bill that would allow the state to hold the presidential primary instead. right now kansas holds party-run caucuses. supporters say switching to

primaries will lead to more residents casting a ballot. >> jonathan lemire, if they switch from a caucus to primary, more people will be able to be involved and the results will actually matter. why would they want to do that? >> it's a great question, joe. certainly -- >> it's irrelevant. >> kansas, what are you doing? it's a large trend, though. caucuses, in particular we've seen some debacles. people are moving away from those. it does seem like primaries are going to take even more center stage going forward. the florida times union leads in jacksonville a $41 million granting to study alzheimer's disease. researchers will analyze medical data from thousands of living patients and study donated brain and blood samples. the goal is to identify a way to treat the disease. officials say the study will be, quote, the first of its kind in its scope and reach. coming up -- >> i was asked the other day

appear i took a little heat for it. i said who's our biggest threat? is it china, sir? is it russia? i said, no, our biggest threat are high-level politicians that work in the united states government like mitch mcconnell. >> i was walking down the street and the poodle said could i have a bone, sir? >> he loves the sir story. >> if that's true, wouldn't lawmakers wanting to investigate mcconnell? our next guest is testing that theory by urging republican leadership to open a probe. congressman jared moskowitz joins our conversation just ahead on "morning joe." with the money we saved, we tried electric unicycles. i think i've got it! doggy-paddle! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

♪♪ welcome back to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east

coast. jonathan lemire is still with us. joining us for this fourth hour, president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton with us. good to have you on board this morning. i know you're a busy man these days. >> yeah, we are unfortunately dealing with a lot of stuff. i'm generally on my way to virginia to do the eulogy for a man with mental health issues that was killed by law enforcement. they came and literally seven of them laid their bodies on him and he died. they have all been prosecuted, but the funeral is at 11:30 this morning right outside richmond, virginia, so when i get off today, i'm going right there to do the eulogy. we keep seeing this. and the reason it makes it as egregious as other law enforcement is that all of us know people -- have people in our families with mental health issues. mental health is not something you should deal with in this

way. his mother was on "politicsnation" and said when you call for mental health issues, you don't expect the result to be death. >> right, exactly. and this is the dichotomy that we're dealing with here today from this story and we'll be following you throughout your day today and then of course new details this morning on how nashville police officers were able to quickly down the covenant school shooter. joining us live from nashville is nbc news correspondent catie beck. catie, what's the latest this morning? >> reporter: yeah, good morning, mika. a growing memorial here outside the covenant school for those six victims of this shooting. we are also learning new details from investigators about the shooter who they say owned more guns than the three that were brought into the school on monday. also getting a closer look at that swift police response, taking down the shooter in just 11 minutes. we do want to warn our viewers that some of the images you're

about to see could be difficult to watch. within seconds of arriving at nashville's covenant church school, newly released body cam footage shows officers quickly gearing up to rush in. >> the kids are all locked down but we have two kids we don't know where they are. >> reporter: weapons strong, they entered the school turned crime scene. >> metro police! >> reporter: surveillance video shows 28-year-old audrey hale shooting through a locked glass door at the school with an ar-style rifle prior to police arriving. police clearing classrooms before following the sound of gunfire to an upstairs lobby, where hale was firing down at police from a second-story window. police confront hale, exchanging fire and taking down the shooter. >> move, move. >> reporter: law enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh says the body cam video shows police

followed their training and saved lives. >> you had a rifle, your job is to locate, isolate, eliminate, so you have to move quickly and that's what they did. >> reporter: nashville police chief john drake saying the shooter's parents report that hale was suffering from an emotional disorder and was under a doctor's care. drake adding the parents also believed their child had sold the one gun hale owned, when in fact hale had legally purchased seven firearms from five different stores and was hiding them within the house. this morning we're also learning more about the victims. 9-year-old evelyn dieckhouse was a child who loved singing and performing. classmate hallie scruggs was the youngest of five and the only daughter of a pastor at covenant church. william kinney described as an unflappable spirit. 61-year-old custodian mike hill known as big mike at the school was described as a sweet soul.

cynthia peak, also 61, was a substitute teacher and devout christian. these educators flew in from atlanta to honor their former colleague, katherine koonce, the head of the school who was gunned down after potentially confronting the shooter. >> she just had that ability giving people everything she had. >> reporter: even if it was known prior to the shooting that hale was unstable, tennessee police would have had no right to confiscate guns and that's because there are no red flag laws on the books here. tennessee, a state that has repealed back a lot of those gun laws. now president biden did weigh in on this shooting saying he has done everything he can in terms of executive actions. it is up to congress now to make these changes. willie. >> and of course as we've seen over the last couple of days, some of those republican members of congress from the state of tennessee already pouring cold water saying there's nothing we can do to fix this. nbc news correspondent catie

beck in nashville. thanks so much. rev, you look at that police video and we talked about this a little earlier and a couple of things strike you. number one is the heroism of those cops. there is no hesitation. they are literally running through that school trying to find the shooter and stop the slaughter of 9-year-olds and school staff. the other side of it again is just this graphic visual representation of what's happening in the country, which is police officers sprinting past little cubbies with kids' jackets in them and sprinting past the artwork of preschoolers and kindergarteners, turning our schools, safe places formerly, into war zones. >> no, the heroism of these police officers literally running into danger, not knowing what they are running into. you cannot emphasize enough. but then to see those little children, who any one of them could have been the next victim and the trauma they're going to

grow up with, you know, i have a 4-year-old grandson, my only grandchild. i looked at this -- i've been fighting gun control all my life but it gets personal now when you see the kids that are the age of your grandchild and then a member of congress saying there's nothing we can do about it. well, then you shouldn't be in washington. we need to send people to washington that says that we have to do something about it. >> yeah. and again, we can't say enough the job these officers did. they raced right in, they did not hesitate. they shot at some distance to get the shooter as they was reloading saving countless young lives. the gun person can be walking down the street with the gun in full display and nothing can be done to stop them. that's where they are in the state of tennessee. >> and that's where we are. two things can be true, the cops did an incredible job and this shouldn't be what they have to do. >> yeah. >> let's bring in democratic congressman jared moskowitz of florida.

he serves as vice chair on the bipartisan gun violence prevention task force and represents the house district that includes parkland in 2018-17 were murdered there at marjory stoneman douglas high school. you graduated from that school. more importantly, i would like for you to respond to your republican counterpart. not in florida, but in congress who says there's nothing we can do. is that where we are? is there nothing that can be done? >> well, thanks, mika. thanks for having me. no, of course there's stuff that can be done. the idea that there's nothing to do, that they have the defeatist attitude is completely unacceptable. those members who are saying that have never been in a room like i was in with 17 families, extended families on the ground praying before law enforcement and the fbi came in and told

them where their child was, on what floor their child died, how many bullet holes their child had. i didn't hear crying, i heard screaming. it haunts me to this day. they didn't see those families and have to figure out what clothes to pick out to bury their child in or what kind of box to bury their child in. they didn't have to go back to those folks' homes and see an empty chair at the dining table or what do you do with your kid's room when they're no longer coming home? what do you do with that stuff? do you box it up? do you put it in the attic? they didn't have to make any of those decisions. they didn't have to see those families go through it. and they didn't have to see these families relive it every time another parent joins this exclusive club that seems to be growing, where all you did wrong was send your kid to school and they didn't come home. we have all these parents' bills of rights going around state legislatures and up here in

washington. shouldn't the first bill of right for a parent be that if you send your kid to school they get to come home? so, no, i don't take the defeatist attitude. we may disagree on certain things to do about guns, but there's lots of things we can do on school safety. >> an exclusive club, speaking of, the nra, that's one that a lot of republicans are concerned about insulting. i would say are you concerned about kids dying, people dying, an epidemic of mass slaughters across the country? i was referring to the congressman from tennessee, this happened in his state and this is his response. >> you want to legislate evil, it's just not going to happen. we need real revival in this country. i call on our christian ministers and our people of faith. that's what we've got to have in this country. we've got evil in this country and everybody just needs to tone down the rhetoric a little bit because all that does is gin it

up on both sides. if you think washington is going to fix this problem, you're wrong, they're not going to fix this problem, they are the problem. >> it doesn't concern you that other countries don't have this level of gun violence? >> other countries don't have our freedom either. we've got incredible freedom in this country. when people abuse that freedom, this is what happens. >> congressman, what do you make of that, that the price of freedom in america is once in a while 9-year-olds will get shot in their school, once in a while first graders will get shot in their school, once in a while some shoppers will get shot, once in a while, worshippers in a synagogue will get shot. what do you do with that? >> it's not once in a while, it's every day, it's every week. it's not once in a while, it's all the time. look, they always try to spin and come up with, you know, well, you know, we can't stop

everything. well, that's not how emergency management works, right? we mitigate. you pass laws to mitigate. you put seat belts in to mitt gate. it's not going to stop every car accident or stop every death. if we can take 1,000 deaths and make it 100, isn't that a dramatic improvement? the number one cause of death for kids now is gun violence. i mean so it isn't once in a while. this idea that it's going to come at the expense of freedom is ridiculous. in florida after parkland republicans and democrats with the majority of republicans raised the age to 21, red flag laws, three-day waiting period. those red flag laws have been used 9,000 times since parkland in five years. there's no marches in the streets of florida that people have lost their freedom. we rolled the nra. every single solitary republican who voted for that bill won the

re-election. rick scott who signed that bill became a u.s. senator. so this conversation is totally ridiculous. yes, the one thing the congressman said that is true, yes, washington is the problem. it is broken. but let's be part of the solution. don't just throw our hands up and say woe is me, let's get to work and figure out where we can agree on school safety. where we don't agree on certain issues, let's figure out around the edges where we can make some progress. washington is in an incremental position now, we don't do big things. that's okay. i'll move the ball five yards and then take another five yards and another five yards. because every life we save as we try to mitigate against this issue is progress. >> it seems to me that on this issue, reverend al, you may be a politician who for some reason the nra info or wherever they get their info is that, oh, this law wouldn't help. this wouldn't stop it. why not try? >> why not try?

>> to protect our children, why not try? >> why not try? because they really don't want to legislate anything that would hurt whatever it is they're about and their supporters are about. and one of the things that i really address, the distortion that somehow the bible tells you to just pray against evil and don't do anything. the whole bible is full of stories of people that fought the evil in their time. so what is he talking about that we can't legislate evil? well, did moses do that in terms of slavery with pharaoh? i mean it is a distortion of scripture. you're supposed to do good work, not just pray for good work. i think for him to try to use religion as a cop-out is an insult to us that are true believers. >> it seems to me, congressman moskowitz, that even kevin mccarthy didn't have words about this. it just -- i don't know, it seems we can do better and our leaders can do better. on a separate topic, congressman, you sent a letter

to top house republicans yesterday calling on them to launch an investigation into one of the people donald trump recently called a top threat to the united states. here is what trump said at his waco rally on saturday. >> i was asked the other day and i took a little heat for it. they said who's our biggest threat? is it china, sir? is it russia? i said, no, our biggest threat are high-level politicians that work in the united states government like mitch mcconnell, nancy pelosi, schumer, biden. justice department. >> i mean the hating on america never stops. the hating on america's military. you've got republican senators saying they wish they were more like russians. the hating on our intel community. and now donald trump saying that mitch mcconnell, minority leader, is a greater threat to

the world than xi or that nancy pelosi is not even speaker anymore a greater threat to the world than vladimir putin? it's twisted and distorted. so tell us, congressman, about the letter you sent to the house republican leadership regarding those comments. >> well, thanks, joe. look, i sit on the oversight committee. it's been a flea circus the last couple of months. these guys are not organized. they have no plan. they're looking for the next benghazi or terry schiavo and have not been able to find it because there's nothing there. comer and jim jordan are getting all of their cues from donald trump and coordinating with the trump campaign. here's the former president of the united states and keeps some of his classified information in drawers with his bronzer. if he's saying mitch mcconnell, an 81-year-old who just finished physical therapy and got out of

rehab that he's a threat to the united states, we're wasting more time on committees than other nonsense. let's see if donald trump is right. let's see what mitch mcconnell knows. you can't be the former president of the united states and say the former leader of the senator is the greatest threat to america and just pretend that didn't happen. jim jordan and comer, they want to have all these hearings, let's have a hearing on mitch mcconnell. >> all right, congressman jared moskowitz, thank you so much. >> thanks for coming on. >> we appreciate it. of course, willie, the point here is to call donald trump out because it is so ridiculous. but we had him here in the middle of december 2015 saying that vladimir putin was a better leader that barack obama. and even after he said he kills journalists and he kills his own political opponent, he said he's strong. we kill people too.

he's forever trashing the united states. look, wasn't his book called "the american dream is dead." his inaugural address was american carnage. the guy is always tearing down america. >> yeah, and it's his guiding philosophy. if you dislike the same people i dislike, then i'm with you. if you're nice to me, then i'm with you, so that could be vladimir putin, it could be all kinds of creeps who helped him try to overthrow the government during the 2020 election. as long as you're on my side, you're good by me and that's gotten into some dark places like choosing vladimir putin, choosing president xi over the people who are at the head of our american government. >> amazing. coming up on "morning joe" our next guest says the most consequential act by president george w. bush was not the invasion of iraq, but rather the single best policy authored by a president in the last six decades. it saved 25 million lives.

most americans have no idea of what it is. we'll tell you all about it when "the new york times" nick kristov joins us next on "morning joe." on "morning joe." you know, there's a thousand billionaires in america, it■s up from about 600 at the beginning of my term. but no billionaire should be paying a lower tax rate than a schoolteacher or a firefighter. i mean it! think about it. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. ♪♪ with skyrizi, most people who achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months... had lasting clearance through 1 year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections, or a lower ability to fight them, may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. ♪nothing is everything♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi.

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vice president kamala harris wraps up her visit to ghana today where she is expected to announce the u.s. will invest$1 billion toward public and private financing for programs focused on the economic empowerment of women around the world. >> and for the vice president, you know, i've spoken with her about the african trip. for her, her belief in the public/private partnership in africa especially, this is something she's really gotten behind, she believes in strongly. she's not saying it but i can tell you a lot of policy people are saying it's about time we

stopped seeding an entire continent to china. it's about time the united states gets engaged with this extraordinarily young continent. and she's doing it. good for her. >> all right. the focus on africa was also something george w. bush had during his presidency. back in 2003, he announced his emergency plan for aids relief. >> to meet a severe and urgent crisis abroad i propose the emergency plan for aids relief. this plan will prevent 7 million new aids infections. treat at least 2 million people with life-extending drugs and provide humane care for millions of people suffering from aids and for children orphaned by aids. >> i had some disagreements with my predecessor, but one of the outstanding things that president bush did was to

initiate the program, a huge investment in battling hiv/aids both with respect to prevention and also with respect to treatment. >> 20 years ago under the leadership of president bush and countless advocates and champions, he undertook a bipartisan effort through pepfar to transform the fight against hiv/aids. it's been a huge success. he thought big. he thought large. he moved. >> as you saw there, president bush's successors agree the program turned out to be a massive success. joining us now columnist for "the new york times" nick kristof. in this story george w. bush is the hero where he breaks down the program's lasting effects and poses this question. by not giving bush the credit he deserves, did we fail to encourage future presidents to take similar bold action? and i think that's a great

question. nick joins us now. it might have. >> it's always struck me, nick, that obviously the iraq war has framed the bush presidency. but it has always been surprising. i wrote about this a decade ago, that if you asked the people that worked in africa, if you asked humanitarian agencies, and i remember bob geldoff, a guy who's considered a saint for what he's done in africa, people would say why are you hanging around george bush? and he cut them off and he'd say because he's done more for africa than all american presidents combined. bono says the same thing. >> this is not something you expect to hear from a liberal "new york times" columnist. but bush was transformative for the future of africa. 25 million lives. there's nothing that compares to that. it's like saving every australian. >> so he saved 25 million lives

through this program. >> that's right. it was partly by providing anti-virals to people who had aids and partly by prevention. for example, women who had aids often transmitted in childbirth, there's a drug you can take to give women that dramatically reduces the risk of transmission. other presidents have continued it. we're up to 25 million lives. so absolutely, you know, iraq is real, guantanamo is real, i hammered bush for eight years over those things. but 25 million lives that is also real and we have to acknowledge that. >> those things can be true at the same time. >> reverend al, i remember back in the early 2000s, among the white evan gel community, we've got to do something about aids in africa. if you ask george w. bush, it was is evangelical faith.

it was his faith that made him move on this issue that ended up saving 25 million lives. >> and i think he was sincere about it. and no one was more anti-bush than i was. i marched on him from early to katrina to him getting up in the morning. but the fact of the matter is that he literally did something that saved so many lives in africa and i think the reason it's important what nick writes is that he did it at a time when many africans and african americans were questioning the medical and the kind of needles that they were bringing in. and they did it anyway because a lot of people were going to the tuskegee experiment that we went through with covid. but to save that many lives, it is important to give credit where credit is due so you don't

look like you're somebody who is inflexibly against someone. he did something that was extremely necessary to save millions of lives. you have to give george bush credit for that. >> nick, how did this become such a priority for president bush. it's hard to imagine donald trump or maybe even republican that comes after making this a centerpiece of their administration. why was this important to him? >> you know it's funny, because it wasn't as if we in journalism were calling on him to do this. it wasn't like "the new york times" wrote an editorial to do this. but the evangelical community was pushing it. and michael gerson, his speechwriter, bush went around the table and said should we do this. and gerson said if we don't do something to do something that would save so many lives, history will judge us harshly. bush did it. i knew how much it did on a trip

to southern africa and i talked to coffin makers. and they were complaining because of pepfar their business had collapsed. that made me feel wonderful. >> talk about the reluctance to give bush credit and the baggage that surrounds him has perhaps scared off future presidents from trying to take on something this big. >> yeah. i think that in general we in journalism, we always hammer presidents for risks that go bad. we don't acknowledge when they take risks and things work. you know, obama, i was so critical about him on syria. and i think that was a real failure. but he intervenes to save azidi. and nobody remembers that. he avoided a genocide. i wish i had given him credit and maybe the next president would be more likely to avoid

genocides like that. >> well, you know, it really raises a bigger question about the complexities of being president of the united states. iraq, an absolute disaster. an absolute disaster. and there's no but after that. an absolute disaster, period. you could go back to john kennedy and anybody that saw the documentary on john kennedy, said we can never win in vietnam, but i can't pull the troops out of vietnam until after i win my re-election. you've got lbj saying the same thing. we can never win in vietnam, but i can't be the one to pull the troops. and 57,000 americans died, millions of vietnamese died. and we have this with every president. we have it with jimmy carter right now. carter, who was seen as this failure. you look back, we just celebrated the 30th anniversary of the camp david accords, which ground wars in the middle east used to happen all the time. they stopped after that.

but you look at the opening of china. i mean there's so many things. >> but don't you think that we're more comfortable with complexity in the case of democratic presidents? >> of course. >> lbj -- >> of course. >> we acknowledge the great things he did, the war on poverty, food stamps, medicare/medicaid and also acknowledge the tragedy of the vietnam war. in bush's case i think we have a tougher time acknowledging that complexity. >> i'm so glad you brought him up because i will say that lbj was just hammered by the left for vietnam, rightly. >> correctly, yeah. >> for years. but that's all. it took 50 years for people to say, wait a second, black people in america, they weren't -- and i'll direct this to you, rev. black people in america weren't fully engaged by our constitution as citizens until lbj. so we've got to deal with the

lies and the deceits and all of the deaths of vietnam along with the man who actually helped move us toward a more perfect union and made jefferson's words a little more real. >> literally lyndon johnson did more than probably any president since lincoln and probably even more than lincoln because he made law. i remember i was a teenager when i joined the civil rights movement in new york. i was from the north. and we marched against the war in vietnam, and one of king's lieutenants who was mentoring me said you do understand he did the voting rights act, the civil rights act and open housing act and that if it wasn't for him life would be much different. i was like thinking this guy is a sell-out defending him, but these are concrete landmark things that wouldn't have been a barack obama or kamala harris if there hadn't been a lyndon johnson. i don't apologize for the war in

vietnam but you cannot judge him by this one situation. >> so tell me, you talked about pepfar. i've had to search through the years. i let rally would do pepfar just to see is anybody covering this? and it seems to me i read a financial times article a while back. we were at 13 million lives saved then. now we're at 25 million lives saved now. i do wonder is history -- when are historians going to be comfortable wrapping this and on the scale of things. 25 million people. a lot of different ways to add up the enormity of that. >> one of the problems is that it's the world's worst acronym, pepfar. and i do think that just the name is a problem. but i don't know. it's astonishing how this is the best thing america has ever

done. the most important humanitarian program in american history. >> say that again. what do your friends say to you who hate bush when you say that? how's this going for you? and when you say that, how do you defend that? >> well, they say, you know, iraq, guantanamo. and i say those were absolutely true, but these are incommensurate yard sticks. it's not that saving a life in malawi from aids erases a life lost in fallujah. but it's also true that hundreds of thousands of needless deaths in iraq don't negate 25 million lives saved and an epidemic overturned around the world. >> and let's just say not just around the world, willie, but also a continent that the united states has ignored. that presidents ignore. they ignore africa. >> and that's the significance of vice president harris' visit there now. also another generation of children born in africa hiv-free which adds to the numbers of

those without hiv. >> absolutely. >> but also what is important about what bush did, and i still can't believe i'm here defending george bush -- >> especially when you marched against him waking up in the morning. >> i think what is important is when we look at what is going on on the continent of africa today, china and others coming in to exploit the natural resources of africa given money, and you contrast that with george bush who came in to save lives, you can't argue the difference between africans being exploited, we'll give you aid but we want the minerals, to somebody that says i don't want anything, we want to save lives. >> and south african people absolutely recognize that we helped turn the corner on the world's worst epidemic at that point. >> and by the year 2050 one in four people in earth will live in africa. this is where so much of the world is changing and changing

africa. this is a program that gets credit for art of that, allowing those people to see the light. and we are see the president himself heading to africa this fall trying to have renewed focus on a continent that has been ignored so long. >> nick kristof, thank you for coming on. what donald trump said recently that might be a concern for his own children. >> have you seen this clip where he talks about parents that hates their kids and they should disinherit them? >> no, that's not nice. is that "succession"? >> it sounds like it. plus we'll get an update on gwyneth paltrow's ski crash trial as her defense team is presenting its case to the jury. i've never been healthier. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone

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>> what was it? >> i interviewed gwyneth on the goop store once. >> what was a goop store look like? >> it's beautiful. they have got lots of cool -- most of it not for you or me. >> it's not for you or me? >> no. >> i'll have to drive out there. >> you're not going to drive out to sag harbor. you're not going to drive out to sag harbor. >> she has candles, all kinds of fun stuff there. >> it's a 12-hour drive. >> gwyneth paltrow's -- >> so you're saying you have had something from goop? >> no. i know about one of the candles. >> people are doing this. she's -- is she making more money from goop than she made doing movies? i know jessica alba, huge movie star, and i didn't know because i don't have babies and diapers, but jessica alba is doing better -- >> she's amazing. >> she was at the honest headquarters.

she started a massive successful company and gwyneth is doing the same. that's the reason they don't act as much. >> and gwyneth paltrow's civil trial would be in the hands of a jury by the end of the week. she's being sued by a man who accuses her of slamming into him on a utah ski slope seven years ago. paltrow is claiming it was him who crashed into her. nbc's kaylee hartung has been following the trial and has the latest. >> reporter: science and technology taking center stage in court with gwyneth paltrow's defense team using it to challenge previous testimony. >> his contact fall to the right. >> reporter: the actress' lawyers presenting an animated reproduction of the crash that contradicts the eyewitness. >> we have two versions of the accident. we have mr. ramon's version and miss paltrow's version. i'm sorry to say mr. ramon's version does not meet with the laws of physics. >> would you say that ms.

paltrow's is the more likely of the two accounts? >> considering it's the only one that matches with the physics of what would happen with physics, yes, i think so. >> reporter: the judge explaining to the jury the animation cannot be considered as evidence but legal experts say the defense may have scored points with it anyway. >> the reality is that juries look at that as evidence. >> reporter: terry sanderson is suing paltrow for $300,000 saying she slammed into him on a ski slope. the 76-year-old testified he's suffering from a permanent traumatic brain injury as a result of the 2016 collision. paltrow is countersuing saying it was in fact sapd sanderson who plowed into her. >> it was like somebody was out of control and going to hit a tree and was going to die. and that's what i had until i was hit. >> mr. sanderson categorically hit me on that ski slope and that is the truth. and i'm sure that that's what you believe.

i'm not saying -- because it's the truth. >> reporter: depositions of paltrow's now teenage children that she shares with chris martin were also read in court. moses and apple martin said neither of them saw the collision but immediately after the crash their mom unequivocally spoke about sanderson running into her. >> that's nbc's kaylee hartung with that report. >> that guy -- >> now you just can't. >> i mean we're going to put percentages on it and see what the jury says. >> it's in the hands of the jury soon. >> let's just say this. he could be facing some pretty big legal fees. >> she is countersuing for a buck. >> but the legal fees, and that's going -- >> it's $1 plus her legal fees. i suggest she has a good lawyer who might cost a few bucks. if he's stuck with that it could be expensive for him. i don't know how it will turn out. no one does. who hit who is the bottom line and we still don't know. coming up --

>> didn't he say afterwards i'm going to be famous or something like that? >> he misspoke, he was so jostled. it's one of the best-selling and most addictive video games of all time. up next the true story behind how tetris made its way out of a collapsing soviet union and into millions of nintendo gameboys across america. that's next on "morning joe." this house says use realtor.com to see homes in your budget. you're staying in school, jacob! realtor.com. to each their home.

amazing. can i play? >> yes. you know what's been bugging me.

why can't both lines be at once instead of one time. >> because i never thought of it. >> we should. >> yeah. give it a try. no harm. >> memories? >> willie, how much time -- >> bring back any memories for you. >> have you spent on that? >> especially once the game boy went out. you could play it wherever you were, wherever you wanted. before we had phones we had game boys playing tetris. >> at random times throughout my life i'd be working, tetris, three hours later. there went the workday. >> from the apple tv plus original movie, tetris. the film reveals the incredible story of how one of the world's most popular video games found its way into the hands of avid players around the globe. tetris follows the real life story of entrepreneur hank

rogers who risks everything by traveling to the soviet union in 1988 and joined forces with the game's inventor to bring the game to the masses. it's being described as a cold war era thriller on steroids with double crossing villains and unlikely heroes, and joining us now to real life creators of tetris, hank rogers and alexi, they worked in the pioneering fields of speech recognition and artificial intelligence prior to tetris. also joining us the writer of the new film, all threw served as executive producers on the film. so i want to start with alexi, how this entire game was brought over from the soviet union. >> how did it start? >> at that time we didn't have any software market at all.

no entertainment market either, so basically so all we could do is just create some kind of amusement in our spare time and share it with the friends just giving the floppy disk. my game all of a sudden become really, really popular, and it's spread out like a -- >> so he is tetris. >> this is video game royalty. hank, where do you come into this story? i know you were dutch born, raised here in the united states. played the game at a trade show in vegas. >> i had a publishing company in japan at the time, and i was looking for games to publish in japan. i found tetris at the consumer electronics show in january of '88 and i published on a number of platforms, including the

nintendo machine and game boy came out so i chased the rights to game boy to the soviet union. >> what year was that when game boy came out? i'm trying to remember. >> game boy came out in '88 in japan, but in '89 in the states. >> when did it really blow up for both of you guys? when did you say my gosh, everyone is playing this game? >> it had to be after game boy. at the same time that game boy came out in the u.s., tetris was really hitting in japan on the nintendo machine. that's when i realized, oh, my gosh, everybody's playing, and everybody's clamoring for more, and i couldn't make more. >> wow. >> and you went to the soviet union in '88? >> it was '89. february of '89. >> and you guys got together? >> it was like an adventure game. i had to go and find lorg. i knew the copyright notice, but i had no idea who or what they

were. after a couple of days of struggling. i hired an interpreter, and she found it right away. i don't know if you've seen the movie, but there's a scene where i stand in front of the door and my interpreter says you can't go in there. what are you talking about? you're here on a tourist visa, you can't speak to anyone. i didn't come all this way to stand in front of a door and go back and get a visa, i just went in. i had an idea that i was breaking the law by barging into a -- >> but it was only the soviet union. >> what's the worst that could happen. i could end up in the gulag, you know. >> dark humor. >> i'm curious, noah now as a writer and a producer of television, you get a pitch for a movie about tetris, and you have to take that out in hollywood. what was that like? >> well, it didn't go well. you know, on the surface it doesn't sound like a sure fire hit, but i went off and just

wrote it to prove that it was actually a really great story, and it worked. >> what did you see in the story that you knew would connect with people? >> i think at its core it's really a story about friendship. that's what really drew me to it. these two guys who are ostensibly, they're brought up to see each other as different. but when they meet they find common ground through gaming, and i see this kind of like as a love story to gaming. and you know, i feel like as we grow up, we sometimes forget to play, and you know, play is so important. it's kind of what makes us human, and you see that in this film and in the story. >> so alexey, you were starting this, creating this just to pass the time. could you ever imagine where you are now? >> well, when the very first version just start breathing, i have it on the screen with no

decoration, no scoring, nothing. i catch myself at the time don't stop playing it myself. [ laughter ] >> you knew you were on to something. i realized that moment that it's probably a good game. >> you had a winner. >> but i never expect anything like that. >> and you talk about two worlds coming together. he's working in the soviet union. >> vegas. >> you man, your story, you are american entrepreneurship, whatever you call it, you're like i'm going to japan. i like this game. i'm going to the soviet union. i'm going to break laws. all chasing a dream, that's crazy. and you guys come together. >> yeah, so i think i agree with noah that the point of the movie is that friendship trumps ideology, so throughout the whole collapse of the soviet union and all of that, we were friends and we remain friends,

and that friendship is so much stronger than any kind of, i don't know, we should do a war or that kind of stuff. no, it's ultimately we're all just people no matter where we live, and our governments do kind of crazy things from time to time and send our children off to war, but we're ordinary people. >> love the game. >> what do you love about the movie the most? >> i mean, i think my favorite part about the movie is -- i think of the strong themes. i think watching it, you know, watching karen edgerton give like a really -- a star performance. he's such a captivating actor, and i think he really, you know, did him and the nikita who played alexey really did good service to the story. >> "tetris" premiers this friday on apple tv plus. thank you all very much for coming on "morning joe" today. >> thank you for having me.

>> thank you for tetris. >> i like it. >> thank you. >> that does it for us this morning, garrett haake picks up the coverage in one minute. one e hey, man. you could save hundreds for safe driving with liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance. so you only pay for what you need! whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ [ ominous music playing ] only pay for what you need. here we go! level up your speed. mario! yea! [ screaming ] introducing the xfinity 10g network. super fast internet today. with even faster speeds tomorrow. woo-hoo!

right now the nashville community still reeling as we learn major new details about monday's massacre at the covenant school. police now revealing that the shooter obtained seven firearms from five different stores, all of them purchased legally and

had been under a