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midnight on the east coast i am stephanie ruhle and we ar continuing our breaking news coverage of the indictment o former president donald trump. the grand jury in manhatta indicted him earlier today making trump the first forme president to ever face crimina charges in our nation' history. those jurors have been hearing evidence of hush money payments, made to adult film star stormy daniels during the 201 presidential campaign. trump's current lawyers issued a statement saying he did no commit any crime and they plan to vigorously fight this political prosecution. one trump attorney tells nbc trump is expected to b arraigned on tuesday in ne york let's bring in our panel o experts to break it all down simone sanders townsend, msnbc host and former chie spokesperson for kamala harris harry lippman, former u.s. attorney and deputy assistan journey -- jonathan allen, senior analyst reporter for nbc news. and tim o'brien, bloomberg

opinion senior columnist and the man who wrote quite to the book on donald trump mr. allen, when we hea historic, unprecedented, put this day into context for us because let's be honest, for the four years donald trump wa in office and the two years he was running, we said unprecedented every single day but this, this is different. >> absolutely right, his behavior with different. you go back to the fact that i is the first person withou former government service to b elected president, now impeached twice, and now the first former president v indicted i think we are going to have t watch how this trial plays out he obviously is entitled to hi innocence until proven guilty, but at the same time this is a thumb -- a test of american ideals. we do not believe that anybody should be above the law, but w also think, as americans generally speaking, that there should not be prosecutions tha are political. so it's why we haven't see this before. one other those two things

happened in a foreign countr we often scoff at them and say that they are not doin democracy as, well but donal trump has tested these two powerful ideals in a way tha have never been tested befor in this country and we'll se what the result is >> tim, you knew donald trum before he was in office, wha does this indictment mean fo him personally united spoke the day that we heard about, the day we hear from the manhattan da tish james and we talked about ho humiliating it was for trump talking about overstating hi assets, his apartment, but the truth is since that he is stil living his life. -- and ivanka are living th highest life they've eve lived. but tonight, this is different story. >> it is a different story for now i mean, i think there ha been this long outstanding i that donald trump is somehow above the law, that donald trump has nine legal lives and the law is never going to catc

up with him. and tonight, the law finally caught up to him i think this is the weakes case of all the cases agains him in terms of it being a existential threat i still think it is importan that the justice department ge in the next year, because think ultimately that is the only case that is going to kee them out of the white hous again and i do not think tha is a political issue, i thin it is an existential issue we don't trump tried to torc the constitution, it should be kept as far from the white house as possible. having said all of that, i think that alvin bragg had t pursue his own case. he had to follow the law the way that he saw it, when so no he has landed this on the home trump's doorstep donald trump sees everything through to, lenses either self aggrandizement, or sel preservation, and he is clearl going to be going into sel preservation mode here he is never wanted to be per walked, fingerprinted, o paraded in front of the media. i do not know how hi

arraignment will be handled, i am sure he will get to special treatment. nonetheless, this is humiliating for anyone who has to go through it and donal trump is about to go through a public humiliation i do not know what the lon term consequences of this are. i think until we see the indictment, and get a fuller and more fulsome sense of what artillery alvin bragg and th grand jury, who heard this evidence have lined up, we wil not know the full force of it. but it is obviously a momentou moment for him in his family and his legal travails are not over there are three other majo suits at play, or you know investigations and lawsuits of foot that are very threatening >> a quick correction, i misspoke tissue james, new york attorne general. tim, you just said that donald trump does not want to do that humiliating perp walk. do you not by this line that w have been hearing from his camp, that he wants to do this publicly, he wants the america

people to see, this do you think that is all bluster? >> i think there are two separate things here i think he wants to incite a mob. i think donald trump relishe the ideas that he can create public violence and stir up th 30% or so of republicans who will vote for him no matte what, the kind of people who relish a photo of him standing with a baseball bat next to photo of alvin bragg a man who will go on twitter and tell everyone, this is against you, it is not jus about me and you should take t the streets and be heard so, yeah i do think that piece of it is a fantasy for him i think you would be very happ to see that come true. i think that is a part of hi being demeaned and degraded in a public form under the law. >> but simone, how does that serve donald trump he may have looked at januar

6th and said look at these people who are willing to figh for me and sacrifice for, me but january 6th was devastatin for him in retrospect. does he not see that would b the case again, while he has a passionate base, they are no very big >> i think if the former president truly thought januar six was devastating to, him he would not have stood on a stag just last weekend with his han over his heart while a choir o people who are insurrectionist and in jail right now for thei participation on january six and so i actually do not think he believes, given his actions we do not know what is in hi head that it was tha devastating to him i think what i have heard al throughout the evening, sinc this news broke, is usin caution and that things should have been political, and i think that is absolutely correct. there are some people out ther are celebrating tonight. finally donald trump got i due. but i do not think there i anything to celebrate here

because the reality is that, i think if donald trump word dante and not donald, this would not have dragged on as long as it did so we say in america tha nobody is above the law, tha there should be equal justic under the law, but how muc money you have in your ban account often dick takes who you know, how that legal syste in this country treat you, and that conversation has been had many times in this country and we are seeing it play out in realtime before our eyes in th multiple investigations into the former president >> let's go back to what you just said. there are some people out ther celebrating, it stormy daniels tweeted that she is poppin champagne, the new york time reporting that some former trump employees are sort o quietly gleeful in text chats, showing that there is a lot of people that he is burned along the way. but lawmakers, take us to th white house. they are obviously silen tonight, and democrati lawmakers understanding what i

at stake here. what are they saying how are they feeling >> i talked to a bunch o senior staffers on capitol hil this evening and a number of folks whose boss, as a democratic bosses put ou statements everyone from the congressiona black caucus to the immediat past speakers, pelosi, hakee jeffries, they were all beatin the same drum if you will. no one is above the law, thi investigation, this came, this decision came based on the facts. and i think that is what you are going to hear from mos senior democrats publicly. privately, what i have heard i that people are doing this t dance and i have urged caution to every single person tha i've spoken to one, it because we do not know the charges. we do not know how this is going to play out, and frankly i have long since said tha there is never doubt in my min that any of thes investigations that the former president would be indicted. the question on the table is will he ever be charged? will he ever be convicted?

>> harry lippman, what is th most important thing to yo tonight? >> well, that we have reache as michael says, is monumental in absence of being able to ge to this point, there would b serious doubt about whether we are in a rule of law or not. but the notes of caution tha you are hearing i think ar well taken and i share, becaus we now start, as of tuesday, a whole kind of new regime tha puts the criminal justic system under stress as it does never seen so typically a trial begins an society kind of steps back and awaits the verdict that will not happen here, you already know not just trump bu everyone in the republican party we saw today with ro desantis, j.d. vance, will b savaging every single move i do think that it is very - you've got some good stuff out

of davis i, believe. i think the important role o david pecker, that we could've surmised because he was th last witness there, goes t show that we are probably goin to see conspiracy and that o the scope, this kind o response to -- we are going to see not just the little pay out it is storm daniels plus the bad paper, bu a longer scheme beginning in 2016 and culminating with trum in the white house assigning checks to cohen. so that will be brags attemp of legally and politically t answer the charges that this i silly stuff. >> tim, he said a moment ago that this investigation is the weakest of the three will that give a license to no just the hard-core maga drubbe supporters, but the more casua ones will that give them license in the short term to try to tes this thing >> well i think they already

have you know, my tally in terms th ones that are -- a civil suit in new york, phony wiliest's case in georgia, the voting court case, and the the two investigations insid the doj with the classifie documents that went to mar-a-lago and trump -- violence and insurrection on january 6th. i think the doj case is th only one that can ultimately literally keep him fro entering the white house depending on how the law interpreted. i think all of these cases are fodder for trump loyalists who are going to say, every single one of these cases is political, none of them involve merit o the rule of law, which i completely farcical when you look at the totality of thes investigations and the issue at stake they all involve ver legitimate and substantial issues under the law that trum should be held accountable for along with his minions

as many other people aroun january six in fact alread have been. so, i do not think that, i think it has been inevitable from the beginning that thes would be politicized, that the would be character as simple political acts and that is why it is either more important to recognize that these prosecutors and investigator are trying to uphold rule of law here, no matter what the naysayers say. >> it is also an important reminder that the naysayers ar nay saying about something tha they do not know anythin about. the indictment is still sealed jon allen, harry was jus talking about the conversation that i had with lanny davis. take us to how the right-win media, not tonight, but goin forward how they are going t have to handle this? if lonnie davis is light, an these prosecutors do not jus have michael cohen and one, two, three other people

corroborating everything wit documents to boot will we ge to a place if -- or how will the right-wing media continue to say that - >> they ignore what the fact are in the case and on the table. what we have seen in - between trump as the crimina suspect and trump as the candidate going up the mor that he is charged, the better he is doing with the republica primary voters >> if you watch fox news, more and more you are hearing fro people saying that he did terrible, job you see them pum up ron desantis. could this get a bigger openin for right-wing media to find that other candidate and pus them forward >> it's possible, it depends o the right-wing media, becaus they're all looking fo markets. as fox moves away from, trum if it does that, and by the wa

we have seen a little bit of recession back towards he has been on hannity thi week but the more that they mov away, the more opportunity there is a 41 america news network, or one broadcasting t go after that trump -- >> looking for a market. can you realize what you jus said are there it's organization, when yo think about what they ar covering, looking for a market >> yeah, i do not expect particularly the right-win media outlets on the very fa right, i do not expect them to spend a lot of time on the particulars of this case i mean it is just not in their interest in terms of the audience i was at that waco rally where trump put his hand over hi heart and they played th january 6th images as he is in waco, texas. it was stunning, at the same time, when you go through th audience when you talk to the, crowd i talked one voter fro fredericksburg texas who sai that he would vote from donald trump from jail. his base is not going away

now, will that change if there is one indictment turns into two or three as tim was talkin about with these other thing hanging over his head? possibly but in the short term, i think we're going to see the republican party vying towards trump. it's a little reminiscen perhaps, in very different cases here, but a little reminiscent of jimmy carter an the iran hostage deal. ted kennedy was running against, him the democrats all went jimmy carter in the primary in part because they were rallyin around the flag, rallyin around the president again, very different cases, but a similar effect potentially. >> steph, what i find so interesting about what joh just said is that there are, given everything that is happening, the facts are out there is no amount of thes right-wing media outlets are not putting the facts out, there but they're not hard t find if you look under a stone or technically local news. >> a lot of americans are no watching they're living their lives putting food on the table, getting their kids - there are a lot of people ar not focused. >> exactly what i hear you talk about

there is public opinion here with what the voters think and i think a lot of times, yo have conversations about well, what is the public opinion here? what did voters think, what ar the american people think, and can they do this given what th american people think? and i think that this is a tim in our history where it is about the facts, - and it is my understanding o talking to folks that know jus the character of alvin bragg and the caliber of lawyers i the manhattan da's office, tha is how they came to th decisions of the came to so we have not seen the charges, we don't know know what they are, but as this develops, there will be people - mike pence was on the networ tonight attacking the manhatta da it with a facts that i thin he got conflated with new york tish james that we're not even correct. >> those are not facts those are not facts. >> what the fact

>> you are a nerd. i cannot leave you just such a or vanishing chas. i actually sherpa that conversationalist our. >> i'm not a criminal defens lawyer, even a criminal fo over 30, years i know th difference between lawyers who get into granular details. buildup cases, fact by fact an then corroborate facts with document with text messages an told wrinkles, and the surround every fact with a corroboration an documentation. nobody out,. they're not one talking head not it with all due respect, n the detail case that they have built up over all of this time and i hear talking heads speculating. oh, this case is weak. how do you know it is week i you do not know what their evidence is? why doesn't everybody keep their patter dry, donald trump is innocent until proven guilty but wait for these prosecutors to show what they have and d

not jump to conclusions. >> harry >> the problem is, the point i very well taken, you canno quibble with a statement tha he made, but it does not matte what the facts are, strong o weak, we know exactly what i going to happen. it's going to get driven through the political system itself so we are just in for a lot of stress here. i just want to urge though that we should adopt a vantage point of, four, five, si months down the road where i is likely that there will be other charges against him an it will just be daily news wha is happening in little motions in court and the like. but they will be jugglin problems that will make it har to actually protest agains each, or another individua suit of course, lanny davis is righ in the basics, but we have got an unprecedented situation we used that word every da

with trump, without even after the facts are delivered, there will be a hard-core group that will not accept them no matter what and will continue to call if nothing else, call th charges trivial. >> but that hard-core grou will not be part of any jury that hard-core group will no be the judge, and they are not part of the justice system i the united states of america can i ask you one more thing harry we keep talking abou this thing as still sealed give us a timeline, i know you not know it specific, but on should be expected to be unsealed he's arraigned on tuesday, and he gets arraigned on tuesday what does that actually look like he walks, in what has happened or does he go from there give us the next five or six days >> so two points the da can move to unsea anytime, it is going to be interesting. there is going to be hydraulic pressure be because more morning taylor going to tumble out. but i think we expect it to be unsealed on tuesday, the day that trump is arraigned. that means that he walks in th

court, not a perp walk, not in chains, and he self surrenders and a judge says, next we hear the people of new york against donald trump, how do you plead mr. trump? you will be there with his lawyer, he will plead no guilty from there he will be taken and processed. the events that other of speculated that he dredges s much but he will be fingerprinted there will be a mugshot, i will be released, it will be a public document. from that point, though steph, we start a whole kind of year, perhaps, of litigation where h does not even necessaril appear it is all began -- between the lawyers, eve though it gets tangled up with the political process. but i think tuesday is the big day for his appearing, and for the infamous mugshot and finger-pointing. >> tim, donald trump has had many, many fixtures over the years. allen weisselberg, what does he, in his 70s or 80s?

is it sitting in rikers island for the devoted work that he did for the trump family for years and years. but explain to our audience ho significant the split betwee donald trump and michael cohen was? michael cohen was at trump's a true ride or die for years >> well, i think michael cohen was a fixed fixer. he handled front and dirty wor for trump, i do not think he was involved in deals an accounting, and some of th finer points of how the trum organization moved through the tar pit that it existed in that prosecutors are going t be interested in but michael cohen has evidence i think everyone talks about whether or not his testimony i reliable, michael cohe recorded some of his

conversations with trump there is at least one that has come public in which donal trump is saying to michael cohen, go to allen, in reference of allen weisselberg and take care of this. and it was about the payment to stormy daniels. so there are recordings of donald trump not being a bystander to any of this, bu being an architect of th scheme and i suspect, as lanny davi mentioned earlier, that alvi bragg has been methodicall building a lot of othe evidence around this, some o which andrews on michael cohen some of which will hinge o allen weisselberg. i think allen weisselberg is far more dangerous to donald trump than michael cohen allen weisselberg was fred trump's accountant donald inherited him and mad him a cfo. he is the crypt keeper of al the financial dealings of th trump organization, going back to the 1970s so, depending on how chronologically deep alvin bragg wanted to go and how man

different fact patterns an streams of evidence he wants t bring in this case, alle weisselberg's a rich wealth to and allen weisselberg have every reason to cooperate at this point because he is a older man and i do not think h wants to spend any more time i prison then he has to. >> you could have said six months ago that he is an older man, he is in the last cor tile of his life, he i certainly not going to go to rikers island for anyone, bu he is there right now tonight. >> right, but he is there unde the threat of his sentence being extended if the da does not tell th court that he does not fully cooperate. he's not been sitting there fo the jailed open, he has been sitting there waiting to see i the courts are going to reduce his sentence for being a goo participant in thi investigation. and i think that provides ever reason for him to want t

provide more evidence and to possibly flip in a mor substantial way against donald trump. i have to believe that allen weisselberg's evidence a testimony are going to b central to the indictment when it is unveiled, but that i just speculation on my part. >> simone, you have been par of presidential campaigns. >> i was literally jus thinking, i could not imagin -- donald trump is a candidate fo president right now. the first republican debate is at the end of august i was literally sitting here thinking about the fact that i could imagine, i have no spoken to rashida jones abou this today, but if either on of us got indicted today, mayb arraignment out and happened yet, we probably would not b sitting in the chair tonight i know i would not be on tv. so this creates a very interesting conundrum becaus voters are, i talked to some folks on my show this weeken

and they said, well, how can you still be a candidate the reality is that there is nothing currently that i happening, frankly nothing tha may happen in the foreseeabl future, that will bar donald trump that from being candidate for president. >> harry lippman, is that true legally? >> it's true because you hav to think of the people's right to vote for who they want. he can be the presidential i angle james, that is true, a far as we know the word is unprecedented, but yes it seems to be true. >> so he is running fo president. so is nikki haley. potentially so is ron desantis and potentially so as mike pence. if you are leading any of thei campaign strategy teams, joh allen, what are you thinking tonight? where are you going? >> most of them are thinking i how fast can i get out of th box and supported donald trump because they saw what happened with edgmont's antis last week when trump said that he wa going to be arrested and i took desantis two days to sa

something, and when he did h took a shot of the prosecuto body also took a shot at trump and it was really the narrativ in republican circles was that this was bad for desantis. that he had fumbled this so it depends on the candidate of course and what they want t do, but what are they actually thinking we can see that they are votin with their statements. they are afraid of alienatin the trump base, and making those people so angry at the that they fall out of the polls, or that they were somehow to get nominated, those peopl would stay home in the general election donald trump has a stranglehol on the republican party, he' got the republican party hostage. even if you were to win th nomination, all the people are going to have to - to him because his voters ma stay home if he is not the nominee. >> john's point about the poll is very important because ther will be so many candidates again, pompeo is allegedly going to wage a race, tim scot is thinking about, there are other folks -- said he might jump in.

he is weighing that decision because there are so man candidates, the republican national committee, which is the group that will facilitate if you will these primar elections and the debates, the will have to create criteria for how people make it onto debate stage oftentimes, where you sit in the averages of a polls is a key part of that criteria and so, how you stay in the poll in a republican primary? you have to keep as th republican voters who pa attention in a republica primary paying attention to. >> as you are saying that, all i can think about is those oregon debates where donal trump showed up and just, th other republican candidate basically melted on the stag before our eyes. so the balancing act of let me rush out so i can show m support for donald trump, so i can potentially get on the debate stage next to him where he can potentially annihilat me >> if there's a split screen i the republican debates it is two images of donald trump one is leading candidate, an

the other is somebody who is facing trial and nobody else. >> unprecedented is the word symone sanders-townsend, jonathan allen, harry lippman, tim o'brien, thank you all s much when we come back, more on the historic indictment of f aorme president for a special extr hour of the 11th hou continues. nt when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control. and with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy helps improve lung function so i can breathe easier for a full 24 hours. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. trelegy contains a medicine that increases risk of hospitalizations and death from asthma problems when used alone. when this medicine is used with an inhaled corticosteroid, like in trelegy, there is not a significant increased risk of these events. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase risk of thrush and infections.

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fallout from tonight's major breaking news. donald trump indicted by a manhattan grand jury, with m

tonight is ron hillier he has been closely covering the former president for us. then on, it was just the other day that the former presiden had said that hewitt heard you are a pretty good guy, and the while spending one-on-one time with you he said, not so much >> unfortunately i think i asked the questions that wer not appealing to the forme president. i would still like to thin that i am still a good guy that i'm a nice enough guy, bu for donald trump i think thi is the issue here, stephanie that folks, at one, time suggested that 2016, even 2017 that he would like to get in the mud and go back and fort with the press i want to be very clear, there is no evidence over the last two years that donald trum wants to take a seriou legitimate, pointed question here he is not on a televisio interview with a non right-win outlet since he left the presidency here. that includes about th investigations, and that is wh the questions that i did posed to him or important, attempted

direct questions to him. including about michael cohen. because when we are looking at the investigation here, donald trump has a, he has denied tha he directed michael cohen to make the hundred and 30,00 dollar payment to stormy daniels, despite michael cohen suggesting that he told hi when the lead up to the 2016 election, to make this transaction. but what trump has not denied, stephanie, is that he was awar of this arrangement sometime i 2017 because when you look a the personal checks that donal trump was writing to reimburse michael cohen, who is writin them all the way up until at least december of 2017 so than when i put those questions to him on the plane, he, number one, did no directly answer it and the number two, when i asked him well where does he think the money is going, e then escorte around that as well. that is the point, here fo donald trump there is still lack of questions that he ha answered and that is why he, number one declined to go unde

oath and actually go before th grand jury with his version of events, but he's also declined to go before us, the press, an we will undertake th questions. because after that exchange, h told me, no more questions fro you. >> well vaughn, it is much easier to say no to pointe questions from you and me, but while facing an indictment in court of law, it gets a lo harder vaughn, thank you so much fo your reporting, i appreciate it joining me now is juanita -- msnbc political analyst an host of -- media what a day podcast and -- steele, the former lieutenan governor of maryland mister steele, what is you reaction tonight >> about time. settle back, grab martini, wai for the next weeks adventure when the da processes donald trump on tuesday trump is about two weeks off on, that but as i said then and it is true, now you've got to wai

is the what the da tells you i going to happen. donald trump does not get to write the script, and i thin donald trump has learned tha in a very hard way tonight that no matter how much he tries to manipulate th narrative, very much t vaughn's reporting, no answering direct questions avoiding the hard answers that the country needs to know abou his involvement in these things, without having to confront those things when they get i front of him this is what it looks like, an this is what it sounds like, and i think the other takeaway tonight is that i am well past i am well past oh my god this is the former president o the united states. donald trump was not you typical president. there is nothing ever ordinary about what he did, and how h ran his administration, and ho he has run his presidency. so this narrative should not shock, it should not a base, o

beef audible or confuse anyone it is consistent with th pattern of behavior that w have known and become very familiar with, at least in washington in the last six years. and to new yorkers know all to well, for a much longer than that so can we dial back the oh m god, this is - yes it is a sad day with regar to that, but he is a unite states citizens who action were brought before a gran jury that grand jury found probable cause for indictment for crime committed, that process will take place on tuesday and th rule of law will continu thereafter >> take us inside your phone michael. take us inside to your tex messages, your child's wit fellow republicans who hav been with the party like you for decades and decades. while many republican affected officials are out ther tweeting those statements, going after alvin bragg, i part of that just for show and

behind closed doors ther saying finally, somebody i getting rid of him for u because we have not heard from mitch mcconnell and he was thinking somebody was going to take a donald trump out, so he would not have to for quit some time. >> yes so the way that i started this conversation tonight about tim is pretty much how you would narrative lee describe the jus conversations that i've had. it has also been surprisingl quiet in many quarters, in man respects as well, which i find also very telling. that a lot of the stuff that people had gone out on a lim for hung their careers and their reputations on, that i breaking if it has not already broken tonight really breaks that further because now betwee impeachments and now a indictment, what more can yo say here how do you continue to justify standing with somebody that yo

would not want your children t emulate, whose behavior yo described, correctly to your children, as problematic a best so, a lot of folks right now are sort of hoping against hop that this does, for them, what they themselves would not do and they placed that hope in somebody like ron desantis, wh just got punched by making the so i do not know if that is go to, either, to be honest. but we can talk about that later as well. >> trust me, i have a lot of time for talking about wha happened to ron desantis and disney, just not tonight given the importance and severity of this news. you know, juanita, there are people out there who are rolling their eyes saying what was this hush money? a porn star? seven years ago? haven't we gotten over that? forgetting the fact that thi hush money situation, thes payments, are directly tied to

donald trump winning the election in 2016 the white house has declined t comment. how are they absorbing this? >> i think it is similar t what michael already shared, i the sense that it is about time as you just pointed ou stephanie, these payments were meant to defraud the voters of the public went to the ballo box that complete informatio because trump and his allies worked to cover it up. so having this come out now, let's be real, it was th precursor for a lot of the other crimes that trum committed, allegedly let's walk through them. stealing documents after h left the white house, a sittin an armed mob to the capital fo the insurrection on january six, everything that he is done calling election officials t try to find votes. all of that would not have existed without this first crime, this first preliminar

action from trump and hi allies so, a lot of people are kind o dismissing, it it is old, it's a seven years old. like you said stephanie, the reality is that without this key piece, none of that stuf probably would've happened so it is important to emphasiz that also emphasize the fact that n crime is too small to be punishable because we regula americans out here would hav to face the music if it was an of us. so why would trump be held any differently? i think that level o accountability is a first step and has got a lot of republicans stroke we heard the audible gasps o that right ring network wher they were just like what completely cross guard because trump has lived in a row where he has no basic accountability decades and decades of crime and wrongdoings an questionable behavior. i was gone unchallenged because he ha operated above the law, but as we saw multiple democrats pu out statements today sayin that there is no one above the law.

today's evidence is that tha includes trump as well >> let's take a look at what fox news had to say tonight. >> the rule of law appears t be suspended tonight, not just for trump, but for anyone wh would consider voting for him. >> clearly, bragg has political agenda, justice is not blind in new york city and other, words show me the man and guess what, i will fin the crime. and that was the mantra of the former soviet union. >> you cannot then have eigh years of this. if you had eight years of this you do not get the country back this is lawfare, and the republicans have to wake up an fight fire with fire >> michael >> please don't ask me about that level of dame please don't seriously. >> ready >> that ignorance, leave tha ignorance in the ether we all know what it is, they are not talking to us. they're not talking to

americans out there wh actually are cognizant and aware of the facts and reality whatever >> i want to go back t something else that we are hearing from republicans tonight. i have it here in front of m -- responses from elected officials are just pushing lies they are using anti semitic do whistles like this nonsens that ron desantis, in iv league educated governor fro florida falsely calling alvi bragg a, quote, sorrows-backed prosecutor so let's hit our audience with some facts, for fact sake. george soros did not find alvi bragg's campaign in fact, brexit visor said tha those two men had not even met the only thing that george soros did was make a donatio to a racial justice grou called color change, and tha group of one of many that alvi

bragg contributors so you can joke michael, we're not going to talk about that stupidity, how about the out and out lies that governors, that senators, that congressma are spreading about th manhattan da and how dangerous that is? left is not just a silly t host >> it is not, and i agree. but okay stephanie, what do we do about it? i live in florida, i canno vote on desantis out of office for spreading those lies the people of florida get to make that decision, they lik this so let's do one for one here if you're sitting there saying that because george soros ma have written a campaign chec with people do all the time to the da, what do you do i somebody like, i don't know, a white nationalist shows up i your state and is embraced b

the political leadership and promote it across stages i your state when cpac shows up and introduces white nationalism and authoritarianism to florid or new york, or wherever the happen to be are you now saying that yo accept that, that you have t make authoritarian this is the nations of the argument at the end of the day this boils down, in every singl state, the citizens have to as themselves, do they like the regression of the rights do they like the expansion o violence do they like at the blind ey to the things that are going o around them by their elected officials? if they do, then keep thos people in, power if they don't then they will unlock them that is the essence of what th system is about, are a democracy, in that way the people put faith in each other to do right by each other an

that means that when you've go to some ham-handed not bal jawboning about something that he he know it is a lie, yo have a responsibility to shu that down and if you do not, i is not on them it is all new >> michael, you are a lo before night, but postmidnight you take it to a whole other level. and to the state of maryland good news, michael is no moving to florida anytime soon you've got him for thi foreseeable future michael steele, juanita, thank you for being here on a really important night. we will have more of our special coverage right after this with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv

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one has seen the indictment. we have no idea what the charges being brought agains him are, what the evidence the have is, and so that is why think it is premature when you are seeing many of president trump's allies on the righ come out and attack th prosecutor because we just d not know what the case looks like i think the same could be said to those celebrating it. we have no idea how strong o weak maybe only time will tell as we lear more about what this indictmen looks like >> of course, we do not know what any of it is. however, there is a period o time in your life where, i a guessing, that when you decide to go work out of the whit house, that was a probably one of the greatest honors of your life, i am guessing you on som level revered and admired, voted for donald trump think about where you were then, how you felt about him, an what you are thinking tonigh when, yes, we do not know what is in the sealed indictment,

but we know this is the firs time in u.s. history that former u.s. president has been indicted >> definitely, it is a sombe day for our country. no doubt that this is the firs time that former president i being criminally charged as you mentioned, i worked for donald trump and i was proud t serve in the trump administration, and it was a honor to get to serve th american people. but, i think this case i probably the least damning o the investigations that he doe face i will say that, for allen bragg to bring this case against, him they must have strong evidence because if you are going to open pandora's box, then you need to make sure tha you have a strong case against him, or you risk trump becomin a martyr and this case looking politically motivated. i do think that it is a somber day that we are seeing a forme president criminally charged but it is a reminder that no one is above the law >> it might seem less seriou

because people think hush money, porn star, years ago, but it i serious because it is directly tied to donald trum getting elected. when you worked in the white house, was there ever talk, wa there ever mumbling's at all about stormy daniels in this case >> no, this was not somethin on our radar i joined the trump administration in june of 2020 so i was kind of their the las final seven or eight months of the trump administration this was not something that wa on the press team's radar, a least. >> what has this been like for you since you testified? we are seeing donald trump supporters, while his base has shrunk, are more passionate, o more fired up than ever. as someone who used to be an ally, and now obviously is publicly critical, what is thi

all like for you >> it is definitely been a surreal experience i do not think that when i joined the white house that would foresee or i would be at now having testified against m former boss. i will say that, as tough as this process has been and as a few people as there are that have spoken out, i feel luck that there have been other join me in speaking out. whether that is cassid hutchinson, alyssa - olivia troye, the list goes on but i was enchanted to see the results of the 2022 midter elections, where we saw a lo of election deniers and trum backed candidates defeated because that gives me hope tha the tide is turning and that people are tired of trump an tired of the lies and want t pursue a new path. so, i worry of what will happe for trump 2024, but i thin that this is just not going to

be necessarily the final nai in the coffin for trump but do not think that, while som may celebrate this in the shor term and see it as politically beneficial for him, i do not think that long term this is going to help him at all as we said earlier, it is not badge of honor to be the first former president to be criminally charged and i do no think that long term this is going to help him with the voters that he needs most. it's just going to serve as reminder of all the baggage an drama that comes with trump, and now he is not electable. >> it is not a celebratory night, it is a serious night and a somber moment for ou country. sarah matthews, thank you fo joining me tonight, really appreciate it. msnbc's special coverage continues after this my dear friend and colleague lawrence o'donnell is back i the anchor chair 's why ame rica's beverage companies are working together to deliver more great tasting options with less sugar or no sugar at all. in fact, today, nearly 60% of beverages sold contain zero sugar.

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