this white house aides tell me that's their strategy, saying nothing at all look, of course, if there were suddenly trump inciting violence, if there was unrest, yes, we'd hear from the white house condemning that. otherwise, they're going to keep out of this, stay out of the fray, not be accused of trying to put their thumb on the scale. they think, as you noted, this can only hurt trump in a general election this would turn off independent and swing voters. >> yeah, i understand it it's not without risk. i moean, they seem content to le donald trump be the nominee. that was familiar to what hillary clinton thought. look, joe biden almost lost the last election. it's no small thing to let donald trump just breeze into the nomination, but i understand why they want to rise above it for the moment. >> you are right they both think trump will be the nominee. i think they also hope trump will be the nominee. they like that matchup brandon buck, thank you so much for this morning we really appreciate it. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this historic friday morning.

"morning joe" starts right now trump indicted the first ever criminal indictment of a former president of the united states came down yesterday when a new york city grand jury convened by the manhattan district attorney's office took the unprecedented step of voting to charge donald trump. because the indictment is under seal, the exact charges are unknown, but we do know they center around that $130,000 payment trump allegedly made to porn star stormy daniels just days before the 2016 election, to keep her silent about an affair she claims the two had a decade earlier according to the star witness in the case, trump's own former lawyer, michael cohen, the trump organization tried to cover up the payment, falsely claiming it was a legal expense. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, march 31st

along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too ea early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire the host of "politics nation," president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. the host of msnbc's "inside with jen psaki," jen psaki. she's the former white house press secretary. and with us, presidential historian jon meacham. nbc news legal analyst andrew weissmann, former general counsel of the fbi and served as lead prosecutor in the mueller special counsel's office a big news day, also a sad day, as history has been made >> right you know, a lot of yammering going on yesterday a lot of people talking about police states and this and that. we don't know what is in the indictment that's the most important thing to remember. i think, also, it's important, willie, to remember that we've

crossed a line here. i've always feared, and i've always said, of all of the horrible legacies donald trump has left us, one of the worst may be becoming the first president, ex-president, to be indicted because of the array of crimes he may have committed, that he certainly appeared to commit, especially around january 6th. peter baker today has, i think, an important article says, the taboo is broken. a new precedent has been set will it tear the country apart as some feared, about putting a former president on trial after watergate? will it be seen at home and abroad as a victor's justice akin to developing nations, where former leaders are imprisoned by their successors or will it become a moment of reckoning, a sign that even someone who was once the most powerful person on the planet is above the law?

then jack goldsmith, of course, harvard law professor, says, whether the indictment is warranted or not, it crosses a huge line in american politics and american legal history here we are again. two things possibly being true at the same time neither one of them good >> well, it iscertainly historic, as you say we've never seen this before it is unprecedented. as you also point out, it's unknown. we don't know what is in this sealed indictment right now. there are political questions around what this means for donald trump as he runs for president again. so far, and very quickly, the republican party has rallied behind him even ron desantis, in his own way, putting out a gesturing statement, saying he would not allow donald trump to be extradited that may be a moot point there may be -- likely won't be extradition in this case that's the political question. andrew weissmann, as for the legal question, let's just start with where we are right now and

what we do know. there's some talk about perhaps what the republicans are calling a business bookkeeping question could lead to something having to do with the commission of a crime in campaign finance, and that would be a felony but what do we know right now, and what happens from here >> well, by all accounts, what the manhattan district attorney has charged is related to this same set of facts that led to a part of the guilty plea that michael cohen entered in a federal court. where michael cohen admitted his guilt in part of this scheme, which was hush payments, and then falsifying, covering up those hush payments, which were made to keep information, allegedly, from the american public, voting on whether to elect donald trump or hillary clinton president. so that was the purpose of the scheme this has obviously been charged under state law after bill barr

forbade the southern district from pursuing individual one, the co-conspirator with michael cohen, who it was the then president of the united states it remains to be seen exactly how this is charged by the d.a there reportedly are some 30 or so counts. those could all relate to this sort of cover-up of false business records there could be campaign finance, sort of predicate crimes we don't know that yet we apparently will know that at least by tuesday, when the reports are that there will be an arraignment of the former president. he, like anyone else who is charged, will be afforded all of the due process rights that anyone has when they're facing state or federal charges >> again, so important to underline, we don't know the nature of the case, the charges in the case yet. we'll know that on tuesday

jon meacham, i want to go back, though, want to obviously get your insight on this historic moment a grim, historic moment, but a his ttoric moment all the same. i want to read this line again from peter baker's front page story in "the new york times" today. will it be seen by many at home and abroad as victor's justice, akin to developing nations where former leaders are imprisoned by their successors, or will it become a moment of reckoning a sign that even someone who was once the most powerful person on the planet is not above the law? in reading that line, i was just thinking about, obviously, our calls, repeatedly, to have a judicial system where no man is above the law. >> accountable. >> i also remember, though, gerald ford in his final years getting the profiles in courage

award for making sure that richard nixon did not go through the drama of trials and an ex-president being sent to jail. so, how does history look at this >> yeah. there's a lot of interesting revision about president ford's decision in 1974 an incredibly unpopular decision politically in september he framed it in terms of mercy he announced it on a sunday morning. had the largest one-day drop in presidential polling in the history of presidential polling. it helped cost him the election in 197 6. then, you're right, 20 years later, there was this shifting view that he had, in fact, as president carter put it in his inaugural address, he'd done so much to heal our land by pardoning nixon. the interesting revision of that

revision is that it created a sense that presidents are above the law. that there is, in the vernacular that peter wrote about in that wonderful essay that you have quoted, that a line has been crossed. the one thing i'd suggest is that a line being crossed suggests that there was a limit that was beneficial. that's usually the way we mean that i just think a new chapter is opening here that's a little different. because trump is so different. thomas pain wrote on the eve of the american revolution, revolution made possible in part because of great words and what words mean he said, in america, the law is king there are innumerable nuances. i understand that. but this is a genuine test of

how mature we are as a democracy that believes in liberty under law. i don't know how we're going to do. >> yeah. >> fair enough. >> reverend al, maybe you can provide some insight on the prosecutor alvin bragg, this is a man who, to the consternation of people who voted for him, to the consternation of his own prosecutors, refused earlier to charge trump because he didn't believe they had enough on trump. his prosecutors were so angry, they went to the "times" and talked about how they had trump dead to center, but he just didn't have the counsrage, the power, the strength to go after donald trump even went out a wrote a book about it yet, here we are with alvin bragg being, well, threatened,

physically threatened, having death threats, having the president post a post that has a baseball bat right next to his head, and he moved forward with the charges. do you have any insights on why the same d.a. that wouldn't bring this six months or a year ago when everybody in his office was saying, "you've got trump dead to center legally," why he wouldn't do it then but would do it now >> alvin bragg is a solid, a rock solid kind of person who is very deliberate, very methodical, and born and raised in harlem, but was also a very studious person. i've known him the last selvera year he is a family man, sunday schoolteacher, solid kind of person so when you'd see him say, "no, i'm not going forward with this case," even though it would have been politically expedient, i don't see it then, you also should say that,

now that he has gone forward, there must be something that we probably won't know until trial that convinced him that there is something to go forward. with a lot of the hoopla that is coming from trump and some of the republican candidates, are the same ones saying that this is political motivated they need to explain why he didn't do this case in the first place if it was politically motivated. if service based on sponsors, they were the same he had or didn't have a year ago i think they're underestimating the solid, quiet strength of this prosecutor. because of that, i don't know if he has something more than a michael cohen, if he has weisselberg or someone else that might end up, that we haven't factored in. don't underestimate that alvin bragg would have not brought these charges unless he was convinced they were winnable

>> he obviously neil feels likee has something now that he didn't have a year ago, mika, or else he wouldn't have brought the charges. i started getting calls and communications with legal people se several days ago, saying, watch weisselberg. i didn't know what it meant then we still don't really know we'll see if weisselberg is involved, possibly when the indictments come down. we also hear indictments. maybe there's more than we expect. >> or -- >> or maybe they parsed the charges 30 different ways, which they can do. >> given the unprecedented, historic nature of the case, there are plenty of questions about exactly what comes next. according to trump's attorneys, the former president will be arraigned in manhattan next tuesday. if he turns himself in, trump will likely avoid the public perp walk we usually see for those charges with crimes. if he refuses to surrender, prosecutors would need

permission to extradite him from florida back to his old home city of new york that's something florida governor ron desantis is already saying he will not help with but while desantis could resist a move to extradite trump, he can't stop it. "the new york times" reports that, under florida law, the governor has the power to call for an investigation of the extradition request to determine whether the person ought to be surrendered. the governor must also sign off on a warrant before the person who has been charged in another state can be arrested and d detained however, "the washington post" points out, desantis would need to build a solid legal case to decline an extradition request according to article 4, section 2, clause 2 of the u.s. constitution, no state has the right to decline an extradition request from another state federal law also outlines that states are required to comply with other states' extradition

requests there is no word on which option trump will take, but according to multiple reports, trump was welcoming the idea of a public spectacle in conversations with friends earlier this month that's when he had announced he would be arrested. regardless of how he enters the courtroom, trump will have his fingerprints and mug shot taken like any other person charged. he will also hear his charges and enter a plea before a judge details the terms of his likely bail it is unlikely that trump will be held without bail jonathan lemire, anything more you want to add to that reporting? also, the word from the white house is absolutely no word at this point >> yeah, that's right. let's start there, mika. the white house's strategy is to say nothing at all they do not want to be accused of politically influencing the case they don't want to be seen as putting their thumb on the

scale. it's an active investigation they'll be quiet they're also aware of the benefits of the split screen, of donald trump being indicted while president biden goes about his business running the country. today, of course, he heads to mississippi to meet with storm sysis victims there. they have the same evaluation that many do in political circles, though this may help donald trump in the short term and the gop primary, it is not going to help in the general election and the potential rematch with president biden as for trump camp, talking to people in his orbit yesterday, there is no sense at this moment anyway, that he will fight this indictment or extradition. he will willingly go to new york city to turn himself in early next week. governor desantis' bluster will likely be just that. there's people close to the former president who says, well, this is a reality now. it is one thing to muse publicly about a fun perp walk when you don't think you'll be charged. now that he has, i don't think he is looking forward to that at all, people say. but he will go through this

process. he will have to turn himself in. there is a sense he'll need to be careful about what he posts a little about this. he's already been wrong about the timing of the indictment you don't want to be muzzled by the judge. you don't want to be perceived as intimidating the jury, because you could lose social media privileges he has a campaign coming up. in new york state, though t it's not policy to release mug shots, these do leak. it wouldn't be shocking if donald trump, considering he is already fundraising off this indictment, if he were to leak his own mug shot, put it on a t-shirt, raise money from supporters for his campaign. >> willie, couple other things coming out from around mar-a-lago first of all, he's already been warned by his lawyers repeatedly after the alvin bragg baseball bat to the head post, to be far more careful with his social media posts.

for the reasons jonathan just pointed out. also, we got the strange adjustment yesterday, that alvin b bragg, that the grand jury was going to be taking a couple weeks off. we vjoked about it yesterday, ho long they'd be taking off. that lulled the trump camp into a false sense of security. donald trump even thanking this grand jury in a post the day before, saying how much he respected this grand jury and how much he thanked this grand jury they actually thought they were going to beat this they actually thought that if he did face any possible indict indictment, it'd be for weeks. he was saying a couple weeks ago, "i have gained such respect for this grand jury, and perhaps even the grand jury system." yesterday, obviously, willie, donald trump and his team of lawyers, everybody at mar-a-lago, shocked at the timing of this. >> and he had a misspelling in

his post, he was so upset. >> well, i don't know that has anything to do with emotions that's just sort of par for the course, isn't it >> yeah, that post you just referenced, joe, was 48 hours ago. now, last night, we're back to being a third-world country. he is a little all over the place with his view of the grand jury jonathan is right, there is, of course, it goes without saying, fundraising happening on donald trump's behalf he is selling t-shirts already get yours by midnight. i stand with donald trump to fight this indictment. as you would expect, as well, most republicans are publicly supporting donald trump, many leaning into that familiar word, "weaponization." house speaker mccarthy writes, alvin bragg, quote, has irreparably damaged our country in an attempt to interfere in the election bragg weaponized our sacred system of justice. steve scalise had the same message, calling the indictment,

quote, one of the clearest examples of extremist democrats weaponizing government to attack their political opponents. rick scott using similar language in his tweet, as did ron desantis, who called it a, quote, weaponization of the legal system virginia governor youngkin mentioning weaponization in his post on twitter. then senator lindsey graham of south carolina, who was on television last night begging people for money >> they're trying the to destroy donald trump because they fear him at the ballot box. to the conservatives out there, make sure you vote if you got friends, make sure they vote. if you don't have any friends, go make some friends but you need to help this man, donald j. trump. they're trying to drain him dry. he spent more money on lawyers than most spend on campaign. they're trying to bleed him dry. donaldjtrump.com

go tonight give the president some money to fight this [ bleep ]. >> joe, i was going to say, lindsey graham was dispatched to do that, but they don't even have to get the order anymore. they know the job. it's to run out on tv and raise money. we go back to this again, joe. >> yeah. >> donald trump so constantly hustles his supporters for money. is he a billionaire, or is he not? legal fees should be a rounding error in his checking account, but he is constantly hustling his supporter for money to pay his legal bills. >> he is always lying to his supporters to get money for something else, then he spends it on his legal fees but, i have to say, looking at that -- >> that was -- >> -- rev, you know, i always talk about the jim and tammy faye bakker approach to politics scamming people like my grandmother out of their social security checks, $25 here, $50 there. i've got to say, that lindsey graham moment, he's tearing up lindsey knows what a bad man

donald trump is. lindsey is the one who said, if we make him our knownominee, hel destroy the republican party and we deserve it. lindsey almost crying there, that reminded me of oral roberts climbing up into his tower in the '80s, saying, "give me $3 million or i'm not coming down from this tower. >> yeah, he did. >> i mean. >> he said he was going to die, yeah. >> give me $3 million, or i'm going to die up here in this tower. the thing is, just like kevin mccarthy, kevin mccarthy knows what a bad man donald trump is he says it privately to anybody who will listen. then he goes out, and he is willing to throw america's judicial system under the bus. lindsey graham there crying like oral roberts on top of his tower, "give us more money." how much money has donald trump

raised off of the big lie? how much money has he raised for legal fees already >> it is -- it shows, really, how low they can go. but i think what this indictment does is expose the best and the worst in american politics in the 21st century the worst being that they are out thereomen, trying to sell some banned goods to their followers, to support something that is not only clearly been decided to be something that they would criminally charge, but something they don't even know what the evidence is. we haven't even unsealed the indictment yet the best of america is that the country shows it will hold its former heads of states accountable. there is no one above the law. i think we need to try to, in the moment we're in, look at the good and the bad

as a activist, i look at the fact that you have a grandfather who had no rights, and he now indicts the most powerful person in the country it is looked at in terms of the trauma of the moment. >> we were taking in all the information, jen psaki, over the past, what, 24 hours, and a lot on the far right and in some media outlet, some in the middle of major defamation lawsuits, making countless claims that this is the biden white house colluding with the doj, that this is a police state, that this is the weaponization of the biden white house. i speak to you as someone who worked in the biden white house and worked on the front lines of messaging. does the biden white house, does president biden at some point speak out about this

how do they push back against what appear to be, since nobody knows what is in here, false claims or leaps forward being made by certain news outlets and commentators on the right? >> absolutely. i mean, one, mika, i think, for now, what they're mindful of in the white house in a moment like this is past precedent, which is, of course, typically, white houses do not speak to an ongoing criminal investigation, which this is, right that's been strandard practice for many, many decades, trump team aside what they're also mindful of is what you talked about, mika. there is this accusation of politicization, right? even in that quinnipiac poll that came out earlier this week, while dremocrats didn't think it was politicized and republicans did, a large percentage of independents thought it was politicized, about 70% so while this is not a problem for them in their view, if you'reelection, they're

mindful of not adding fuel to the fire, to make it more politicized. when the president does speak to it, which, having been there before and spending a lot of time with him when i was there, he'll be stopped on a rope line or when he is going to the helicopter, and he'll say something. my bet is their goal is to have it aligned with what speaker pelosi said, former speaker pelosi, or what leader schumer said, which is very 50,000 feet, respect for rule of law and the legal process. that's what this is a test of, and that's where they're going to want to stay when they speak to it. >> andrew weissmann, we have to underline, again, we don't know what is in this sealed indictment we will find out perhaps next week when the president is arr arraigned. but there is a reasonable chance that donald trump goes to trial, has his day in court, a jury could roll its eyes at these charges, and he is found innocent that's the way the system works. what do you expect to see, just for people -- there's so much emotion around this, excitement on one side, outrage on the

other. what is reasonable to expect how will this play out how long might it take >> great question. i think for so many people, they've waited for this day, to see some accountability in terms of criminal acts by the former president, whether they were before he became president, which apparently that's what this is going to be charged here, or while he was president or after he was president, which are investigations in georgia and the federal level. all of that remains to be seen with respect to manhattan, there's a really good sort of road map for the time that this is going to take, which is looking at the case against the trump organization and allen weisselberg, in that case, it took 16 months to go to trial. it is important to know, there is a reason for that the same rule of law that leads to the accountability of even a

former president, that is the same rule of law that requires that he, like everyone else, be afforded due process rights. he'll be entitled to discovery from the state he'll be entitled to make motions like any other defendant challenging the legal viability of the case, to ask for additional discovery, maybe change of venue, protections in choosing a jury. all of that, that delay that can be very frustrating is what people have to be prepared for if they believe this is a rule of law country, the way many other countries are. we are not the only country that has held current or former political leaders to account we are going down a path that's unique for us, that is not unique in terms of the world where people are held to account if they commit crimes. but it does require people to be patient because that's what due process requires. >> all right nbc news legal analyst andrew

weissmann, thank you so much jon meacham, how ironic, that a man who really launched his political campaign by getting his audience and getting his staff members to chant "lock her up," while mocking the fifth amendment as a tool only of the mob, ends up having his legacy defined by insurrections, riots, indictments, and a string of depositions where all he's doing is using fifth amendment protections that he wants mocked >> yeah. you know, the other part of this culturally for the former president is the ghost of roy cohn, right? he used to say, don't tell me what the law is. tell me who the judge is

his entire identity, not just politically but in business and the culture of new york, has been that the fight is all that the fight is what this is about. you know, we started talking about president ford after you mentioned it, i was thinking, you know, before the pardon on august 9th of 1974, when ford said, our long national nightmare is over, in that same speech, he said, we are now once again a government of laws and not of men one of the most unsettling things, to me, over the last, what, 12 or 14 hours, has been the uniformly human-centric, personalty-centric response of the republican party the series of statements and tweets you laid out there.

the governor of virginia is the favorite of the 401(k) republicans who think that, somehow or another, trump is just going to disagree and it'll be the party of reagan again there he is, talking about -- following the talking points perhaps as remarkable as the indictment itself is the fact that the governor of florida said he would not follow the constitution and extradite someone who is indicted to a different state. we sort of moved quickly past that, for all the obvious reasons, but for a second, sit back and think about that. and that's not because we're a government of laws that's because too many people who are in the grip of this fever, and i hesitate to use that image, actually, because fevers break, and this shows no evidence of that

quite the opposite -- who is in the grip of this consuultive personality, are willing to put the interest of a person or party above the institution. that's the fundamental question here i don't want to be glib about it i don't want to be hyperbolic about it but, straightforwardly, this is a test of citizenship. are we a country of laws, or are we a country where personalitie can overwhelm the law sim mply y the force of the political passions of the moment that's the issue we're living through. >> well, and, jon, you could expand that out, actually. it surprises me every day that many of my former colleagues, my former party members, they're willing to trash the rule of law. they're willing to attack the rule of law. they're always undermining america, either attacking american courts or attacking the military or attacking the intel

services or attacking high er education in america they're attacking everything all because of a failed tv host who started a riot, tried to overturn an election, tried to undermine the constitution by saying he wanted to terminate the constitution of the united states because it got in his way. now, they're calling us a police state. i heard it on fox news last night about a thousand times somebody in the middle of the dominion lawsuit just throwing kerosene on the fire it really is remarkable, what so many people are willing to do who support donald trump, what they're willing to do. and these so-called mainstream republicans you talk about, youngkin, who tried to have it both ways. tried to be country club republicans, nod, wink and say they hate donald trump behind closed doors, so when they're at exclusive clubs across america,

they can raise mohundreds of thousands of dollars, then they go out, somebody like glenn youngkin, and trashes the rule of law so he can play to the other side of the party. it's really sick it's this -- we have to go to break, but you brought it up and i have to say it there are a group of mainstream republicans that donald trump hate, that will still say quietly behind the scenes, "oh, but, you know, it's just a passing fever. the republican party is the republican party doesn't matter if it is donald trump, even if he tried to overthrow an election. even if he started riots on january 6th. even if his actions led to the death of police officers even if he said we should terminate the constitution even if, even if, even if," they'll still stand behind that person, donald trump, despite the fact they detest him i talked about fox news. they say all the time they

detest him, they loathe him, and then get on the air and say something comecompletely differt same thing with glenn youngkin i could go down the list of people you and i have spoken about. mainstream republicans who say he's destroying the republic, but they'll support him if he is the nominee. >> yeah. >> i'd love to know where that comes from. >> it is elemental, joe, right these are men's grill enablers, right? these are 19th hole enablers of a quest for power above all. this is elemental, right it's about genesis it's about knowledge there's power. there's something that you are told you can't have, and, yet, you want it, and so you take it.

once you take it, you don't want to let it go and the remarkable thing about the united states of america is that our framers fundamentally understood this. they would be shocked that it took this long for us to be having this conversation they understood the fall and frail, fallible, appetite-driven nature ofcalvinists. they believed d we were depravd and fallen what'd they do they built guardrails. they built something that would balance out our impulses and ambition it held. it has held for a long time. >> right. >> the interesting thing about the country is that it depends on our moral disposition it depends on our ability,

capacity, willingness to actually follow the law. >> right. >> so the law is not as clinical as we sometimes want it to be. we have to, as was written, we have to follow the spirit of it. that's the test we're facing if those who put power above all or tax rates above all, could, in fact, be fatal to this experiment that's what we're facing. >> yeah. the men's grill enablers of trumpism, form of fascism. hope the drinks on the 19th hole are enjoyable for him. willie, in closing, following up on what jon said, another important line from peter baker's brilliant essay in "the new york times" today, the indictment of mr. trump takes the country into unchartered

waters the writers of the constitution may have been surprised only that it took to so long. the president indicted and removed will, quote, nevertheless be subject to trial, indictment and punishment according to the law article 1, section 3 of the constitution declares. willie >> that's the point jon was making the fact it took this long is maybe the only surprise in the long history of our republic now, we've already heard some republicans saying, okay, we crossed this bridge now. maybe we find a grand jury, find a prosecutor somewhere in a trump-friendly area that is going to try to indict sitting president joe biden or former president. that's not a reason not to pursue justice, nobody is above the law, but it is a fact now, given the political culture we're in, that is a possibility. one final point, mika and joe. which is, the justice department found the circumstances of this

case, the payoff to a porn star right before a presidential election, they found michael cohen guilty in 2018 that was donald trump's justice department all this talk about the biden justice department and democrats weaponizing the justice department, the facts of the case that we're talking about right now were compelling enough for donald trump's justice department, also, to pursue those in 2018, five years ago when donald trump was president. just one other layer to this story. >> jon meacham, thank you. we're going to be bringing jon back a little later in the show because i think a little bit here about what happens at the "morning joe" table, i think the history of this moment is the big story today. i think if there were viewers or people coming right now expecting to see hysteria or glee, there's nothing to report on we don't know what is in this indi indictment

and so, for those who are, you know, screaming and crying on the air about weaponization of the government or collusion with the biden white house or all sorts of other things that have led to this moment that are baseless, completely baseless, it's not responsible right now, we don't know what is in there, but we do know that this is a really sad moment and a perilous moment in american history, because of the potential candonsequences of a former president being indicted and what that might open the door to. >> right. >> but if the indictment has legitimate laws broken, there was no other choice but to move forward. that's that. >> and i think we've all been saying it here, which is, again, two things can be true at once this is crossing the rubicon, and there's no going back. the consequences of this could be horrific. you could have a prosecutor in west texas decide to go after the next democratic president,

then you could have a democratic d.a. doing the same thing. yeah, that may be the rubicon that we've crossed at the same time, as peter points out, as jon has pointed out, you also have the very, very american concept, and there are those of us who still actually believe in america, love america, and want to defend the rule of law in america despite the fact that a lot of people love a former game show host who started riots and behaved abhorrently, there's a lot of us that still believe that, in this country, no man is above the law. so there is a balancing act. two things can be true at once if you -- >> serious moment. >> if you turned this on and expected anybody to be gleeful on this show, you're not reading the room right these are very perilous times. >> yeah. >> it's not to say that, perhaps, after we read the indictment, we won't say, well,

that makes a lot of sense, but there is so much at stake, so much on the line we should probably treat this a little differently than we treat, let's say, red sox baseball games >> right. >> which, on that point, didn't start out good yesterday. >> we'll get to that. ahead on "morning joe," much more reaction to the indictment of former president trump, including what his former vice president mike pence is saying plus, new york city police are stepping up security on the heels of yesterday's announcement former nypd commissioner bill bratton joins us to weigh in on that. and pulitzer prize winning reporter and veteran watergate journalist bob woodward will be our guest this morning. also this morning, newly released 911 calls show the chaos and the terror that unfolded during this week's mass shooting at a school in nashville. and what we're learning about the detainment of an american journalist in russia.

how the white house is responding you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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46 past the hour live look at new york city beautiful shot as the sun comes up over the big apple. law enforcement is preparing for potential protests in the wake of the indictment of former president trump. the nypd issued a memo yesterday requiring all officers to be prepared for deployment in the case of, quote, unusual disorder there is reason why police are taking seriously the potential for violence in the wake of trump's indictment nearly two weeks ago, trump

called for mass protests he referred to the manhattan d.a. as an animal, and a danger who should be removed. he told his supporters the country is being destroyed that prosecutor is doing the work of the devil. >> called him the gestapo. >> he amplified a threatening image, suggesting the d.a. could be beaten with a baseball bat, and warned of death and destruction if he is held accountable. couple that with his loaded language in the past about guns and hillary clinton, and his continuing praise of the january 6th insurrectionists, including his collaboration with members of a prison choir who are incarcerated for attacking police. >> yeah. >> joining us now, former new york city police commissioner, the now executive chairman of the tenayo risk, commissioner

bratton, and jay johnson joins us >> commissioner, what would you be doing this morning as -- >> sorry, joe, i didn't hear the question. >> what would you be doing to prevent the next january 6th if you were running the nypd again? >> the police commissioner is very busy, her and her department begun to see that yesterday with the increased security around the courthouse, district attorney's office. security has been increased significantly, certainly for the district attorney and others the good news is new york has great experience dealing with every type of experience in terms of whether it be terrorism or large crowds and demonstrations in this event, they will be watching very closely, monitoring social media, intelligence sources i don't think you're going to see huge crowds turning out for this thing, particularly from the trump side mr. trump is not thought of well here in new york or manhattan. i think you'll have larger

crowds that will be demonstrating against him rather than in support of him in any event, the police department will be prepared to deal with it. >> commissioner brad btton, boom when trump said, i'll be arrested on tuesday, there was a handful of trump supporters downtown protesting. can you speak, though, as someone who has obviously served as the top of the new york police department, about the kind of resources it has, the intelligence it has, and why it would be much, much more difficult and probably unwise for people to try to incite violence in lower manhattan? >> my predecessor, after the events of 9/11, committed to almost 1,000 officers working on intelligence gathering jay jay jeh johnson, who i worked with, who is sitting next to me, it is an example of the close collaboration in new york city new york does an extraordinary job analyzing, gathering

intelligence, monitoring social media. these demonstrations right now, they're not picking up much information about planned demonstration. they're more concerned about the lone wolf, the person they don't pick up on social media, dhthey don't hear from. at the same time, they have phenomenal resources last week, in anticipation of an action last week, they fielded what they call mobile field force. they put out ten of them that's over 1,200 officers scattered around lower man tatten they could respond quickly to any unplanned, emerging situation. the nypd working in coordination with the counterparts in other agencies will be very well prepared for this. >> mr. secretary, we went through what could happen, may or may not happen in lower manhattan, and there was a small group of protesters last week. this morning in palm beach near mar-a-lago, a very small group of demonstrators there, as well. but it is a big country. taking a look back at your former job, looking at the

entire nation, certainly, donald trump has fervent supporters throughout the country what steps do you think federal law enforcement right now is taking in case something else were to erupt, perhaps in a trump stronghold >> first, i want to ekcho what bill said. i have a lot of confidence in the nypd in 2015, when bill was commissioner and i was secretary, we mimanaged probable largest operation in history with the general assembly. 170 world leaders plus the pope. i'm sure the nypd will be prepared here in new york. they know how to do this kind of thing. on the national scale, i am very concerned that former president trump has abandoned all moderation in his rhetoric, in his overheated rhetoric. what he is essentially doing in talking to his base, those who, as jon put it, are still under his spell, is basically, take up

arms against our government, state and local. particularly after january 6th, mr. trump ought to know the consequences of this kind of rhetoric he will swear, i did not intend violence by my rhetoric, but there is a point you intend the consequences of your action. we've seen it with january 6th i'm very concerned this could be a repeat of that i know that the department of homeland security right now as we speak, through its intelligence and analysis directorate, is closely monitoring social media, all of its sources, just as is the nypd and the fbi, looking for potential demonstrations that could turn violent on a national level, whether it's here in new york, mar-a-lago, or any place else i think they need to be vigilant right now, given the former president's very overheated rhetoric >> secretary, having said that,

on the other side of it, there are a lot of emotions. people that have been anti-trump, and how do you counsel them one of the things we've been saying is, do not play into it don't be the ones who come out and try to go, as we would say, tit for tat with those who would express anger and want to see violence how would you counsel people we are looking at a moment that we shouldn't be celebrating. it is a sad moment to see a former president have to do this, though we feel it could lead to justice. how would you counsel the anti-trump crowd that may show up as the police commissioner said >> peaceful demonstration. the right to protest is part of our values, our heritage, our history and our culture. as you know, reverend, martin

luther king would counsel demonstrations, protests, but always peaceful. after george floyd, many people, millions of americans took to the streets and protested in a peaceful manner. i'd count myself as a protester for some of the marches i was in after george floyd, as you were. >> yeah. >> and so peaceful demonstration, the peaceful demonstration of rights to assemble, it's part of who we are as americans, but always peaceful. >> commissioner bratton, one of the talking points emanating from the right in the aftermath of thisindictment is saying d.a. bragg, that he is too focused on donald trump and ignoring the crime that's happening in his backyard, the crime that's happening in manhattan. can you provide context as to whether there is any truth a all to that point? what is the d.a. and nypd doing on crime each and every day in new york city? >> the district attorney's office is a large operation. they have the capability to do

multiple things at the same time so the idea of the focus of his office on this case, certainly detracting a lot of resources, sure, but he has a large operation that focuses on the crime situation. a critic of the district attorney relative to his crime fighting in the city, so make that known but, at the same time, his office is very capable of doing the investigation into mr. trump's activity while, at the same time, trying to foe plus focus on the crime situation in new york. >> former new york city police commissioner bill bratton and former homeland security secretary jey johnson, thank you, both, for your incite coming up, we'll be speaking to experts throughout the morning about yesterday's historic vote by a grand jury to indict the former president. plus, dan goldman knows a thing or two about investigating donald trump the former prosecutor who served

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no one is above the law, including former presidents. i'll be clear on that point. the american people know this. but in this case, and a controversy over campaign finance, i can't speak to the merits of this case at all, but i can speak to the issue emanating out of a question over campaign finance, should never have risen to the level to bring an unprecedented and historic prosecution against a former president. >> should trump have been treated differently than michael cohen who went to jail for doing this >> michael cohen went to jail for lying to congress. look, this is an issue about campaign finances, and it's a tenuous, at best.

>> i'm so confused willie, no man is above the law, but, in this case, donald trump is above the law that's the argument they have to make no man is above the law, except for a failed reality tv show host who said, "let's terminate the thing is, they're saying it about this case now then watch them say it about the georgia case then watch them say it about the documents case >> if indictments come there. >> then watch them say it about the january 6th case whichever of those cases may come, they're always going to defend the failed reality tv show host over the rule of law, over the constitution, over the military, over the intel community, over american colleges, over every institution that's made this country great

because, for some reason, they believe we're a nation of men and not a nation of laws >> right it's either true or not, that no one is above the law you can't say no one is above the law, comma, but, and then say why one person is above the law in this case. >> yeah. >> you're right, they and donald trump, his supporters in congress and mike pence and others, are laying the predicate in this first case again, we don't know what's inside this dieindictment we don't know what the case against the former president is. they're at least laying the perre predicate for, well, the justice department is going after donald trump because they don't want him to be president. they can use it in georgia they can use it in the january 6th case, the documents case at mar-a-lago this will be the argument, that they're only doing all this to prevent donald trump from being president again. that's the argument. >> by the way, it's not just the january 6th rioters.

i loved jon meacham talking about the men's grill enablers. >> nice line. >> people who try to have it both ways. you and i, you and me, we've seen this all time people talk about, oh, i can't stand this guy hate this. oh, he's the worst he's horrible for the. >> then the enablers will go on tv look at glenn youngkin he is a perfect example. all these other people go on, and then they'll say, oh, the weaponization of the rule of law. it's nonsense. >> also irresponsible. we don't know what is inside the indictment there is a baseless accusation of any collusion or the rule of law being abused but that's a little fact check to what the former vice president said about michael cohen. cohen was convicted of tax evasion and campaign finance violations tied to the payments

made to porn store stormy daniels. cohen pleaded guilty to lying to congress about a moscow real estate project trump and his company pursued at the same time he was securing the gop nomination in 2016 jonathan lemire, reverend al sharpton and jen psaki are still with us. msnbc political analyst and former senator claire mccaskill. best selling author, presidential historian michael besc beschloss. we've been reading from peter baker's article entitled "a president faces prosecution, and a drak iemocracy is tested," ine new york times." peter writes, for the details of the case, its political impact, the larger story is of a country heading down a road it has never traveled before.

one fraught with profound consequences for the health of the world's oldest democracy for more than two centuries, presidents have been held on a ped pedestal, even the ones declared immune from prosecution in office, and even afterward no longer. that taboo has been broken a new precedent has been set will it tear the country apart, as some feared about putting a former president on trial after watergate? will it be seen by many at home and abroad as victor's justice akin to developing nations, where former leaders are imprisoned by their successors or will it become a moment of reckoning, a sign that even someone who was once the most powerful person on the planet is not above the law? >> michael beschloss, peter also says, bhiewhile the indictment s us into unchartered waters, the writers of the constitution

might have been surprised only that it took so long president impeached by the house, convicted and removed by the senate, quote, shall ne nevertheless be subject to indictment, trial and punishment according to the law article 1, section 3 of the consti constitution, declares ex-president, says the writers of the constitution, shall be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment according to the law. we've never done it before well, we're doing it now with this indictment, just as the founders of the constitution foresaw. >> we are seeing that happen especially because, you know, impeachment has sadly turned out to be a toothless remedy you know, all of us, mika and joe, sat through the two trump impeachments, and the result was foreordained from the beginning. he'd always win in the end and get off. impeachment is not something

that is going to strike fear into the heart of any president, especially donald trump. but now that an ex-president has been indicted, you know, we've turned this presidency from this punishment-free zone, which it has been for over two centuries, at least in terms of criminal punishment, and now cause presidents to think they have to live by the same laws the rest of us do the other thing is, are we going to live in a system of mob rule? when donald trump puts up a social media post with his baseball bat, with d.a. bragg at the right, essentially threatening violence against the d.a., and when he and his supporters threaten that mobs in the streets, domestic terrorists maybe will descend on judges or juries or those who are in favor of prosecution of donald trump, that's mob law if we give into that, we're overturning everything the founders believed.

>> we had some republicans sending up the bat signals we've seen so many times, calling bragg, again, a soros-backed prosecutor in lower manhattan. we know what that means. claire mccaskill, as a former prosecutor, i wonder how you viewed this. a sealed indictment, again, we do not know the charges against the former president he will have his day in court. he will have due process he may walk away with no consequences to any of this. but there is much more ahead for him. what was your reaction, and what do you expect to see from here >> well, i triyied to think abot the challenges the d.a. has ahead of him this is going to be hard it's a little bit of a tricky case if it is what we think it is, if they're enhancing his fraudulent use of business records by using a federal campaign law as the enhancer for that, to move from

a misdemeanor to felony, that's tricky the other thing that is hard for alvin bragg, this is unlike any other case i mean, if the defense lawyer asks for a change of venue, there is not a venue in america that you're going to find a jury pool that doesn't have strong feelings about this one way or the other. picking a jury in this case is going to be really a challenge, to make sure you find people who can shut out the noise and just focus on the facts and the law then i thought about the defense lawyers and what a problem they have because, typically, a defense lawyer, they are the ones that clients look to for advice on how they should handle themselves good luck with that. donald trump does not take advice from anyone on how to handle himself everything he says and does is poten potentially used in court, and that's important i don't think donald trump is going to be able to control himself. he has a lot of people willing to say outrageous things for him, but i don't think he'll be

able to help saying outrageous things himself, which ultimately a jury can certainly consider, depending on what those statements are. >> jen psaki, just if you were advising on the message right now from the white house, what would it be? also, i'm just wondering if that would be evolve ing. i also don't want to get ahead of myself, i'm just concerned trump is going to start sending out messages that are very highly infused let's put it that way. >> yeah. >> so yeah, continue. >> i think that's a really important point. the secretary, johnson, was just talking. i was thinking, while they will be quiet as long as possible, behind the scenes in the white house, they are also closely tracking, as he talked about, any threats, whether it is in new york or it is other cities or it is lone wolves they'll be getting updates and briefings from the department of homeland security, from experts within the white house

you can see a scenario, and hopefully we're not in this scenario, of course, mika, but where if there is violence, if there are people gathering that seems violent, the president could call for calm. maybe ask for republicans to do that with him. maybe that's wishful thinking, but there are people like senator mcconnell who has been quiet to date. maybe others will have a moment of stiffening their spine. we'll see. but that would be the moment he would go out and speak publicly. otherwise, if i were advising them, i would advise them to stick in the same frame as leader schumer and speaker pelosi, which is just reit reiterating the value and respect for the rule of law in our country. the importance of letting the legal process play itself out. that is defending and respecting that fundamental baseline of our democracy. that's where they need to really stay if they can >> reverend al, we would love for you to tell us more about alvin bragg, the d.a. who has been the target of death

threats, the man who republicans like ron desantis are using, actually, old anti-semitic tropes against his supporters, saying he is nothing but a lackey for a jewish international banker the old george soros line that all these republicans are shamelessly using. anti-semitic trope of course, donald trump called him a racist against white people and an animal. tell us about the d.a. who is now suddenly at the center of the world's attention. >> well, alvin bragg is a very solid family man, sunday schoolteacher. teaches sunday school at his church born and raised in harlem. went to harvard law school in harvard, they talk about how, when there was a controversial

black activist that was invited to speak at harvard, it was alvin that tried to get both sides to understand why they would bring this controversial black activist then, not long after that, they had a white professor who had advocated things that were considered anti-black. he wanted that guy heard they said, this guy has got some real kind of balance with him. that's the alvin bragg we know in harlem. he come by the national action network all the time, even on our youth nights when i'm not there. he is a solid guy. i say that all to say, joe, he's not kind of guy that would play politics he would not indict anyone, including donald trump, to get political capital or to serve political supporters by the way, sort s soros did not directly support him he supported a group that ended

up soupporting bragg. this was the same alvin bragg that would not prosecute trump a year ago and was heavily a i t attacked by many on the left and many in the media. he is deliberate he didn't do it at that time, felt there was no case one must suspect there are factors we don't know that made alvin bragg, a year later, take this step. we will not know that until this indictment is unsealed and we go to trial but alvin is not manipulated by anybody and motivated by politics. >> joins us now, lecturer in law at colombia law school, caroline plese, a defense attorney. from palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg joins us, as well. good to have you both. >> dave, thanks so much for, first of all, being in touch with me the past couple days you've given me the heads-up you said, look at the space with weisselberg.

something is going on there. you weren't so sure that the indictment was going to wait two or three weeks you had a feeling this might happen first of all, tell me why. also, why do we keep hearing allen weisselberg's name continuing to come up the past two, three days? what have you been hearing that tipped your hand to this >> good morning, joe the timetable we're all expecting here was because it was set by donald trump. that's why i thought you shouldn't believe that timetable of tuesday or bust all signs were pointing to an indictment sooner than later because they invited trump to the grand jury to testify. that's usually end game. and they had michael cohen testify, who was the punctuation mark of all this i'm not surprise wed we saw an indictment i thought there'd be multiple felonies we didn't expect. it was beyond the stormy daniels case, and it may be the case we heard that jennifer

weisselberg testified before the grand jury jennifer weisselberg is the ex-daughter-in-law of long-time trump organization cfo allen weisselberg. she doesn't seem to have inside knowledge about the storeny stoy daniels payments, but she'd know about the finances of the trump organization she would be at the dinner table when this conversation would occur. she's an estranged ex-daughter-in-law she has a lot to say to prosecutors. that led me to believe that this is more than just payments to stormy daniels now, we don't know a lot of the counts are probably conspiracy counts. don't be spsurprised if there's bank fraud, insurance fraud, other things that can make this more serious jennifer weisselberg would be a valuable witness in the trial, but a more valuable witness would be allen weisselberg he knows where the bodies are buried expect prosecutors in manhattan to continue to pressure

weisselberg to flip on donald trump. they'll pressure him with a possible insurance fraud charge. he is nearing the end of his sentence at rikers island. he is 75 years old he does not want to renew his room reservation there in prison >> yeah. it's interesting when he was being sent to prison, donald trump, who is actually older than weisselberg, said, look what they are doing to that poor, old man. but there is, again, some interesting bits of information in the news accounts that you're hearing about this, including the fact that bragg, according to sources, has communications between trump organization members. so, again, it is, some things seem to be pointing to perhaps something that's going to bring mr. weisselberg back into this dave, i'm also wondering, he can't help himself ron desantis embarrassed himself by saying he was going to fight

extradition charges, like he has any say. again, one more republican that doesn't give a damn about the constitution of the united states of course, you've got -- you have to just -- >> what's this line? >> look at the soros-backed -- no, they're attacking jewish international bankers. it is what anti-semites have been doing for hundreds of years, attacking jewish international bankers. that's what they do. they try to blame everything on jewish international bankers it's germany 1933. why does ron desantis further embarrass himself by saying, i'm going to ignore the constitution and not extradite trump to new york >> yeah, ei saw that tweet, joe. look, he already knew that donald trump was saying through his lawyers that he was not going to fight extradition i am not so sure it doesn't seem in character for trump to surrender voluntarily

he may try to fight extradition. the ball would then go to desantis' court the fact that the alleged criminal conduct occurred in new york while donald trump was a resident of new york means that this is in the category of a fugitive extradition that means that desantis has no power to stop the extradition. he can delay it possibly a few months at most, but new york would then go to federal court and get an order of extradition. it's not hard to get in a case like this. now, where desantis has some power is to try to stop a future extradition to georgia that would be a non-fugitive extradition. trump wasn't there at the time the alleged criminal conduct occurred that's why, in this case, even though it looks like the georgia case is stronger than the new york case, the extradition to new york will be easier than any extradition to georgia one more thing one reason trump may indeed surrender rather than go and fight extradition is to t

desantis from looking like the pr protector. he doesn't want desantis to look like the alpha dog in everything, trump doesn't want desantis looking strong while trump looks weak. >> claire, let me pull you in here let's talk about georgia for argument sake, as law professors would do in our law classes, just for argument sake, let's say donald trump gets indictment in georgia and, for some reason, ron desantis tries to stop him facing justice in georgia for potentially trying to rig an election the supreme court of the united states ultimately would reverse that in about 15 seconds, would they not >> yeah. it is really -- i think the tweet that ron desantis did yesterday should be on a marquee with flashing lights he has now revealed who he is.

>> yeah. >> he has revealed that this is all about performance politics with him this is a harvard educated lawyer he knows that article -- there is an article in the constitution that specifically forbids what he said yesterday specifically addresseses the founding fathers saying the executives of state shall cooperate with other jurisdictions when laws are being enforced and he, frankly, i can't imagine that trump is going to do anything other than surrender. alvin bragg wouldq quietly surrender. the country should want him to quietly surrender. desantis knows that. he is now telling america, i am just as vacuous as donald trump. the substance of it doesn't matter i am willing to say and do anything and the irony here is, he tweeted that he would violate

the u.s. constitution in order to win a nomination to become president, to put his hand in the air and swear over a bible that he will uphold and defend the constitution so, come on, give me a break i mean, this is really embarrassing. >> clown show. >> very undignified. it's a clown show. >> really bad for the country. >> political theater from ron desantis trump's lawyer this morning reiterated his intent that he will surrender, he is not going to fight extradition carolyn, we don't know, obviously, everything in the indictment that'll be a few day before we do from what we are aware of with the case, what is your assessment as to the charges that could come and the prosecution that would follow? it's complicated this is going to be a state level rather than federal. >> absolutely. you know, we've heard about michael cohen who has previously been indicted at a federal level in the southern district of new york for conduct related to sort of this overall hush money scheme again, it's not illegal to pay

hush money what we're talking about here is the documentation of it on trump org's financial disclosure forms. unconfirmed reporting is that there's 34 counts, potentially, in this indictment i don't think bragg would move forward with an indictment that wasn't kicked up to a felony charge we've all heard these are sort of misdemeanor offenses. however, prosecutors can kick it up to a class-e felony if they can show the misdocumentation was done in furtherance of a federal crime. that's where it gets tricky, as claire said. it could be a federal campaign finance law violation, in the form of the hush money payment was, in fact, a contribution to the campaign just days before the election it wasn't merely a personal payment to save trump from the embarrassment from his wife and others that he had, you know, potentially had an affair.

there are multiple issues with this prosecution i think d.a. bragg has a long road ahead of him. you know, at a base level, you have to prove knowledge and intent and, you know, intent to defraud, not just to tie the payment. legal scholars are asking, well, who was, you know, he intended to defraud with the addition of weisselberg, we're hearing it could be new york state tax authorities. there could be tax violations involved here. there are a myriad of sort of avenues through which bragg could move this prosecution. >> and adding to that whole myriad of things that bragg would be facing, would he not also know that the trump attorneys would be going to some level of appeals courts to try to overturn the indictment or stop it? therefore, you would assume that they have various parts of the indictment that they feel would

survive whatever appeals process the trump organization and/or trump himself would come and try to overturn this indictment. >> absolutely. so in order to get an indictment, the standard is just probable cause that a crime has been committed however, in a situation like this, you have to know that bragg feels much stronger about that, obviously, the standard to convict is beyond a reasonable doubt. where it gets tricky, as you noted, it's true, this federal election law violation theory, in order to kick up the misdemeanor charge to a felony, has not been tested at a trial level in new york state court. it's been used for guilty pleas and things of that nature, so there are some precedents here however, you can't help but liken this case with the john edwards case, with the payments to hunter. >> right. >> that was a federal case you know, it was the sort of a similar theory, that these payments were not, in fact, personal however, they were made for his

campaign that fell apart, you know. he was acquitted on one of the counts, the prosecutors declined to move forward with the prosecution. it is a shaky theory in the world of the federal land. having it as the back channel in this state prosecution seven more risky. >> federal criminal defense attorney caroline polisi, and prosecutor in palm beach county, dave aronberg, thank you for being with us on this historic morning. >> michael beschloss, love to get final thoughts from you on this historic moment we find ourselves in >> well, i think the win one thing, you know, i've been trying to think, joe and mika, willie and jonathan and everyone else, i've been trying to think, where in history have we heard of a defendant like donald trump and the people who support him saying that there should be public demonstrations and implying that judges and juries and the legal process should be

in inti intimidated? two big memories in history. number one, organized crime. how many times in history have we seen a master criminal, including john gotti, who supposedly jokingly, says he want people threatening judges or threatening assassination that's number one. number two, white supremacists, gangs, not only in the south who disagree with a verdict or may disagree with a prosecution, try to intimidate a judge or even go into a jail and pull someone who has been sentenced to a life in prison out and lynch that person these are the precedents for what donald trump and his friends are saying they are very very much watched and make sure we don't go down that road again. >> and i'm so glad you brought that up. because it actually allows us to

see how this historically is specific only to donald trump, michael. you didn't hear republicans doing this when richard nixon was facing impeachment >> absolutely. >> richard nixon was facing crimes you didn't hear this new agnew was charged with tax evasion. >> absolutely. >> in fact, you had republicans, barry goldwater, the most conservative republican, walking to the white house and saying to ni nixon, hey, the gig is up. get out. >> right. >> again, this is something that -- this is specific to trump, isn't it? it's not even specific to republicans historically. >> sure it is. again, look who his heros are. mobsters, white supremacists, gangs. you know, you tell a lot by who someone's heros are, and it is beginning to look at least in this case as if those are his. >> michael beschloss and claire

mccaskill, thank you both for being on this morning. jen psaki is going to have to rework her entire show blow the whole thing up and start again. we'll be watching your show this sunday at noon eastern. >> exactly. >> "inside with jen psaki," noon on msnbc and also on peacock. ahead, the indictment by d.a. alvin bragg isn't the only legal trouble former president trump is facing. we're going to run through the long list of his other potential legal problems some other news this morning, actress gwyneth paltrow has won her court battle over a 2016 ski collision we'll take a look at what happened in court yesterday. also ahead, new polling shows americans are pulling away from some of the values that once defined our country, like patriotism, religion, and hard work we're going to dig into those numbers ahead. you're watching "morning joe."

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mika, front page of the "wall street journal," the trump indictment is up top something over here, something so deeply concerning, obviously. "wall street journal" and the family there, just so upset, for good reason. americans should be deeply concerned about what's happening with "the wall street journal" reporter. >> we're learning more this morning about the detainment and arrest of an american journalist in russia. "wall street journal" moscow correspondent evan gershkovich has rotated time inside and outside of russia since the war in ukraine began russia's federal security service announced yesterday that he had been detained on spying charges. the reporter will be held in pretrial detention until late may, before his case can be

heard. russian state media reports gershkovich maintained his innocence in court yesterday he could face up to 20 years in prison if convicted. the white house condemned evan's detention as well as russia's continued efforts to target american citizens within its borders. gershkovich is the first journalist from an american outlet to be charged with espionage in russia since the cold war willie >> we'll be following that very closely. meanwhile, in nashville, police have released 911 calls showing the chaos and the terror inside the covenant school as the deadly mass shooting unfolded monday. nbc news correspondent catie beck has more. >> reporter: monday morning in nashville was like any other [ sirens ]. >> reporter: until the calls from covenant school began pouring in >> i think they have a shooter at our church. >> reporter: terrified teachers barricading students from the gunfire they could hear rooms

away >> i hear another shot >> reporter: calls from school employees hiding in offices, in the gym. a teacher speaking to children in whispers. afraid to be heard >> please hurry. >> reporter: on the other end of the line, this team of five emergency dispatchers quickly declaring it a mass casualty. >> this is a school shooting be prepared to receive victims >> reporter: the calls quickly stacking up. dispatchers jumping from one call to the next, but aubrey warnock stuck on one line 34 minutes. a pastor hiding in a closet. >> he was crying, he was, "pray for me." we can't lose kids >> reporter: george allen took a call from a teacher tucked away with 17 students allen urging her to stay calm and hidden >> frantic and wanting help, and it's all you can say, is we're coming >> 14 minutes was awesome, but 14 minutes to us seems like

hours. >> right >> the hardest part for me was seeing the updates, one down by the main entrance. two to three in the hallway. we realized that it was real >> what's your name? >> chad scruggs. >> reporter: chad scruggs rushing to the scene, urged to stay away. his 9-year-old daughter hallie inside, later identified as one of the six victims lost. still, for the dispatchers that heard gunfire and calls for help, the new reality is hard to accept >> it is very hard to wrap your mind around as a human being, how this could even happen >> that was nbc's catie beck with that report it ties very well into what we're going to be talking about next is america pulling back from the values that once defined the country? new polling shows patriotism, religion and rohother priorities that helped shape the national

character are becoming less important. we'll get a look into what is orning joe." trend next on ♪ what's going on oh, what's going on ♪ oh, genius! ...i need a breakthrough card... like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more... plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases! and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas... ...a brilliant reality! the new ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours.

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42 past the hour recent "wall street journal" norc center study is highlighting some sharp changes in what americans value in their lives. the importance of religion and patriotism have plummeted since the late 1990s community involvement is down 20 percentage points in the last quarter century. in its place, americans have become more and more focused on money and far less focused on having children. joining us now to discuss these changing trends, presidential historian, jon meacham, and doris kearns goodwin, professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr., and father james

martin, an american jesuit priest and editor at large of the "jesuit magazine america." >> before we dive in, let me quickly go through something that's concerned me for quite some time. i remember after we saw ken burns' "vietnam," it really -- told a lot of friends, "watch this if you want to understand why americans are so suspicious of experts and why so many people will support a know-nothing demagogue like donald trump." in 1999, bill clinton's i impeachment. 9/11, missing the warning signs. collapse of world come 2003, iraq katrina. 2008, the economic collapse.

wall street banks being bailed out, and it kept going on. 20 years of war. charlottesville, kids in cages, two impeachments of donald trump, election denialism, january 6th riots. the afghanistan withdraw then, of course, columbine, sandy hook to uvalde to nashville. doris kearns goodwin, it has been, sadly, a year of -- or a century, a new century of one failure after another failure after another failure by elites. >> you know, it's interesting, joe, i was in selma, in birmingham this last week, and it reminded me of my growing up generation in the 1960s. now, it was a time that was laced with violence and assassinations, but it was also a time when public interest took precedents over private values you had the civil rightsegghts

movement, the peaceful protests that desegregated the south. the voting rights act came. people growing up believed in community action we believed that public action could make things change we were marching there was a sense of optimism and possibility. i look now at the generations that have just grown up in this time you're talking about, and there's such an individualism. we've lost the sense of a collective identity. one of the things fdr said is ever now and then, a generation will come into being when they realize there's something larger than the individual. when they're willing to sacrifice their power, their associations, even their lives for the nation that's when you believe and you know what a nation is. we've had those moments in our history. you know, turn of the civil war, you had the anti-slavery movement people willing to give their lives for something. then you had lincoln come in with frederick douglass, and the two of them together form a partnership. you had the turn of the 20th century, when there were the progressive movements, the

social gospel in religion, jane adams. teddy roosevelt gives power to the movement already out there certainly, the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the ggay rights movement. this poll was disspiriting and you also have a former president now who is all about individualism. i mean, what is he talking about now when he's arguing about what he should be doing it's not you're fighting against -- you're taking away my ideas. you're taking away me. it's all me. i alone can fix it i think we've got to fix out how we can get back to hard work, belief in religion, belief in patriotism these things take a turn, and let's hope the cycle will turn that's still my optimism, that the cycle will come back. >> well, joe, when you talk about all those important moments in history, failures, as you mentioned, and listed, there's also the backdrop of the rise of the internet, then the creation of social media for whatever it's worth. >> which has only accelerated the hyper individualism.

there was the right attacked the hyperindividualism on the left in the '60s and '70s you have hyper individualism on the extreme right now. we've talked about it in terms of guns. father martin, the whole concept of being our brother's keeper, we talk about john kennedy and the inauguration, saying, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country hillary clinton talked about, it takes a village. she was branded a ommunist it's about being our brother's and our sister's keeper. it's about greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for another. it's about giving. those threads from the gospel that use to define our society have been shredded why? >> well, i agree

as usual, i agree with doris kearns goodwin i think a lot of it is this growing individualism. in catholic social teaching, we talk about the common good we've lost that idea of the common good. it's a kind of crazed individualism. it's also a focus on money and getting ahead. you know, in terms of the drop-off of religion, i think we've seen growing secularization really all over the world. some of this is very simple. people don't really feel like they have time to go to church anymore. they're too busy they're too busy to sort of participate in sort of common service. but, you're right, it's a lot of individualism. also, you know, in terms of religion, one thing, and i'm sure you both know, that happened at a catholic church is around 2002, there was the crisis for others, there is good reason to distance from organize religion most of it is this growing individualist. the me decade is not just the

'70s. >> well, rev, there have been scandals in the church we always talked about ptl, but that was a huge scandal in 1987/1988. you had the oral roberts you had jimmy swagger. you had the catholic church. you had all these televangelists that millions of people followed one scandal after another. then you had the catholic church you have my church, the southern baptist church you have all of these churches that have undergone one scandal after another scandal after another scandal. that mounts. that mounts up and causes cynicism, i why people aren't g church as much or going to synagogues as much. >> i think that you point out something important because when i was growing up clearly there probably were leaders in the

church that did scandalous things and we didn't know about it with social media everyone knows about it whether it be in the church, in politics or whether it be in social service listening to doris, eddie, i was thinking of the civil rights issues of the '60s collective movements and something you and i have discussed how can the recent years we would get individualism even in the movements with people for a moment and then didn't sustain the activism epa sort of leading by twitter than sustained movements to lead to law and i think that is reflected in this poll people are not grounded in

things. >> right some people might think about this as a logical consequence of mass culture and democracy that you would see this erosion one of the things i was thinking about is the flip side of the civil rights movement and the retreat from the public domain with the successes of the movements you had those americans that retreat from the public domain and public schools and from the public square what we have seen over the last 40 years in america is the shift of who we are. we are all self interested persons. in competition and rivalry with each other and that approach eviscerates the public good. it privatizes the conception of the good we saw that in the context of

covi covid. democracy at its best is a disinterested form of love we don't have to know the people we care about. the folk that is we know but what we see is a selfishness, because, joe, in addition to the crises what have we seen? flat lining of wages deepening inequality between those who have and those who have not folks bust the behinds and can barely keep a roof over the head and send the kids to college. >> jon meacham, are we doomed? will we move down the line of hyper individualism? i know russell kirk and i think the remarkable introduction to

seventh edition of the conservative mind gave examples of times where one person did make a difference and turned the very nature of a society, of a culture, of a country around on its heels. sort of joan of arc type moment. are we doomed? are we going to continue down this path where god, country, patriotism means less and less and less and money and individualism and it is just grotesque materialism means more and more >> i don't think we are doomed i think it is up to us as it always has been. and i guess i would offer one wrinkle in all this to my friends and colleagues individualism isn't bad.

we are all created in god's image. we are all agents. the most important thing arguably about the american revolution is fullest poll call man manifest destination from an era where popes and princes and kings either by an excellent of birth or an incident of election were given authority to a more horizontal understanding of identity that we were born with a capacity to determine our destiny. the individual is as george h.w. bush said, the bright center and puts the burden on the individual is to be in covenant

with others. we will not move forward if we simply say you are to be part of a collective or you are bad if you're interested in yourself. that is not the argument the argument is that it is in your interest to be a good neighbor that if you extend a hand in the morning you are more likely to get one in the afternoon neighbors brings up mr. rogers you may not know there was a great tweet some months ago. someone sent out that if mr. ronlg everies and doris goodwin had a one-night stand i would have resulted. i thought it was a great thing doris was a little irritated i want to ask her as my virtual mother a quick question here, which is, how we look at lincoln and fdr, lbj whom you worked

for, what was their view of how they had to both represent the opinion of the country and still lead the opinion of the country? >> first i just like to say the only reason i was irritated is not the idea that you were mu son but a one-night stand. i wanted to have a full relationship with mr. rogers it should come out of love i would like to take the point you bring this up all the time you are such a character we now write to each other as, hello mother i have a brother this is all crazy. but anyway, i love jit leaders do set a tone of conversation. somebody has to be bubbling up from the society as a whole. civil rights or women rights

movement but the right leader channels that movement into legislation and changes and one thing that saddens me to go through the indictments with mr. trump is what we will be talking about? time is something you can never get back we'll spend so much time talking about him and sent so much time since 2015 talking about him has that made us a better people and care about other things than ourselves? just to go back to it to giver us hope for the future after the reconstruction era there was a time of much more looking to materialism then you get that progressive movement, world war i, people wanting to go back to private life and the '20s. again a decade of materialism. then the new deal and world war ii and the silent generation of

the '50s there are cycles and there's possibilities. you have people marching for the right of women to choose in tennessee marching for greater gun control safety the majority of the people believe in a right to choose they have to get out there and together and marching. we saw the marching in the country of georgia in the last week able to pull back on a ruin imposition thing we saw it in israel. it is time to become part. yes, we are individuals but the best individual is to align with others who believe in the values that we want our country to go it is time for momentum. >> it is something that hopefully conservatives and liberals, people on all sides, can come together on i found this quote from russell

kirk father martin, love to get your reaction of course, kirk as usual ends up quoting burke. much worth conserving in the nature to renew. he denied that great states are subject to cycles of growth and then decay quote, the very moment when some of them seem plunged into abysses of disgrace and disaster they have emerged, opened a new reckoning and even in the depths of the calamity, the country have laid foundations of towering, endurable change

father martin, how do we have that revival not just a revival of faith, but also, a revival of patriotism i this country >> that's a big question for so i re early in the morning a lot of it does depend on the individual i can't help thinking that christians are about to celebrate holy week and good friday and holy saturday after the kcrucifixion of jesus love triumphs of hate. it is a turning away from despair, from the sense of doom and recognizing that individuals as jon meacham was saying is individualism has the place but individuals can make a

difference it is turning from despair particularly now. >> all right mother and son >> i'm getting a lot of -- >> my brother and father martin. we thank you all so much for the family discussion. willie >> i'm still working through the mr. rogers thing myself. it is just after 8:00 on the east coast a manhattan grand jury voted to indict former president trump. nbc news correspondent garret headache has the latest. >> reporter: grand jurors in manhattan setting off a stunning legal earthquake thursday voting to indict a former president for the first time in history. aftershocks across the country this morning even as the specific charge or charges are secret and understood seal the district attorney said it contacted the trump attorney to

coordinate the surrender the investigation centers on the 2016 payment allegedly made to buy the silence of adult film actress stormy daniels claiming she had an affair with mr. trump a decade prior thursday night mr. trump blasted the investigation as election interference at the highest level in history labels the d.a. a disgrace adding he cannot get a fair trial in new york. republican lawmakers rallying to the former president's defense from long time allies. >> this is going to destroy america. we are going to fight back at the ballot box. >> reporter: to potential 2024 campaign rivals. >> the unprecedented indictment of a former president of the united states on a campaign finance issue is an outrage. >> reporter: congressional democrats largely praised the indictment decision as upholding the rule of law while the white

house stayed sigh leapt. the criminal processing of a secret service protectee is another historic first with the mug shot taken, fingerprints and a dna swab collected while the detail of agents stand guard at the center took off when michael cohen pled guilty to campaign finance violation cohen said he was acting at the direction of the former president. former president trump said he was a victim of extortion. prosecutors decided not to pursue charges but all eyes are on bragg making the case against former president trump >> the bombshell indictment against former president trump is just one of several investigations still swirling around him he's dismissed probes as politically motivated aimed to prevent him from retaking the

white house. >> the new weapon being used by out of control unhinged democrats to cheat an election is criminally investigating a candidate, bad publicity and all. >> reporter: legal analysts say the largest threat might be the investigations being head by special counsel jack smirt looking into the handling of classified documents after the fbi seized thousands of documents from the mar-a-lago home including 100 marked classified after refusing multiple requests from authorities to turn them over. this week he was asked whether he took boxes with him from the white house. >> this is the presidential records act. i have the right to take stuff. >> reporter: the special counsel is also investigating the actions sounding january 6 he dismissed the investigation as an abuse of power.

>> the spishl counsel nflgss into mar-a-lago and january 6 pose a greater threat to donald trump broader in scope and federal crimes carry stiffer penalties. >> reporter: an invest in georgia where a fulton county grand jury recommended indictments for multiple unnamed people for interference in georgia's 2020 election. a key element, this phone call between mr. trump and georgia's secretary of state. >> i just want to find 11,780 votes which is one more than we have. >> reporter: all in unprecedented legal web for a former president of the united states >> let's bring into the conversation former white house director of communications

soeshltd editor of "the washington post" bob woodward. jackie alamani and justice ken dilanian a great panel for this conversation bob woodward, you have seen an awful lot in the time as a reporter, but never seen this because no one has former president trump indicted. we'll learn the charges against him. that's a field indictment. we don't know the case just yet but just your reaction to the simple fact of a president indicted >> it is extroaordinary. we need a perspective on this. as they say, who has the h-hairs here that is the special counsel that they have the authority and access to the fbi to federal grand juries this is going to take months if

not a year to resolve all of the investigations that are going on this is the real threat. particularly, the january 6th insurrection there is evidence on the record, an abundance of evidence, that trump incited this, supported this this was not just a crime. it was a crime against the constitution and the rule of law. i think jack smith's prosecutors take that and other matters seriously. and as we have seen the judges and the local district court here in a very, very important way have ruled that the people like former vice president pence and aides to trump have to

testify on critical issues so that's the big deal but this is a big deal in itself and i guess if you are trying to look at what happened here donald trump created a culture of political hate and driven this as he said he thinks everything is mine. that only he knows these things. so it is going to be not just a criminal investigation but a look at who trump is and what he meant to the country when he was president and what it would mean to the country if he was elected again. >> we have passed the top of the 8:00 hour on the east coast. central time zone people just tuning in. 7:00 there 5:00 out on the west coast

for a huge day in news a follow-up on the indictments that came out yesterday. and, jen, a line's been crossed here it is a line that causes me grave concern. for the first time indicted a former president but against the grave concern of us allowing americans to believe that anyone based on the position can above the law. >> if a crime is committed. >> i suspect you look in georgia, jack smith's investigations these are indictments. the mar-a-lago on instruction case these are indictments that are most likely going to continue to come and it is going to come to a man who began the political career by pushing his followers to chant lock her up and to mock and ridicule the use of the

fifth amendment. that constitutional right and said it is what the mob did. that's how he spent the past year it is donald trump who actually is the first ex-president to be indicted. >> ironies abound with him it feels perilous this morning you understand history was made. we are going into unchartered territory. voters rejected him. the courts had the say when the judges ruled on false election fraud claims had the say and now juries will have the say this is not just alvin bragg that brought charges against donald trump a majority of jurors voted to indict him that's likely same thing will

play out in atlanta. the same -- if the special cou counsel moves forward in d.c.. so that's another front of the democracy that donald trump is going to test. you hope that citizens and juries and in the country will be able to handle this he is testing us at all levels this is going to be a big one when you consider multiple trials going on likely in a presidential campaign. trump as a defendant in courtrooms, that case down in atlanta, i was in atlanta this week they will indict a lot of people they will indict likely what the recommendations were is at least a dozen people names we know. probably this is like, that next 18

mo months between now and the presidential election will be treacherous. >> a moment of history, testing the democracy. it is a political moment shapes the 2024 campaign we have trump's rivals bashing what they saw in the indictment that complicates the effort to unseat trump at the top of the party. republicans saying this is deep state. are there more concrete steps to take that are threatening to do things to derail the prosecution? what could happen next >> i think to see jim jordan in congress to issue a subpoena to alvin bragg, the top people in the manhattan district attorney office involved in the investigations not just this one but also to

trump's inflation of assets for the past six years this certainly are political considerations but if we take a step back and look at this from a prosecutorial stance, they say this is an even handed application of the law if you look at the record of prosecuting people in new york for the falsification of records this is the bread and butter they describe the way new york state uses the charges to hold them accountable for petty k

crimes and organized crimes. >> ken, you cover this prosecutor's office closely on a number of different cases. must have been following this case what we know so far is there's an indictment. it is sealed we do know that trump and hearing this morning is that he will surrender hopefully not a dramatic scene at mar-a-lago having to be hauled up to new york. what as a practical question, what happens from here if he surrenders next week, then what >> the will be booked and expect to happen behind the scenes. he will be accompanied by the secret service detail. he'll be finger printed, swabbed by dna a mug shot taken there's been a question about

whether he will be handcuffed in the procedure. that seems to be up in the air why maybe won't happen given the secret service protection. and then the indictment will be unsealed and learn the answers to crucial questions we assume that what we believe the case is about. there's been an investigation into the trump organization's business practices and they won a conviction against the organization remains to be seen if that comes into this. the real question is, what is that secondary crime assuming they are felony crimes. what is the secondary crime that elevates the falsification of business record to a felony? federal campaign finance violation? that's tricky. is it a state law?

something else all these are important questions that we'll be looking at for me in washington a biggest question is how does this prosecution affect jack smith when i talk to people they say it could cut both ways there's concern about whether this is a political prosecution. 70% of independents believe that it is political. does this taint the special counsel who's inspected, a career prosecutor? or, does this make it easier for garland to make the momentous decision to approve a much more significant indictment along the lines of mar-a-lago obstruction of justice case or january 6 case that's a big implication of the new york prosecution. >> reverend al, we have known

donald trump for sometime. you have known him for much longer time. for people that really just started paying close attention to him running may not understand what maggie haberman always says that donald trump is trying to survive the next five minutes. uch you have been in new york. politics aside this is something unfolding for 50 years donald trump has always been one step ahead of whether it is prosecutors or bankruptcy laws or contract disputes always, always fighting. always trying to get out of the trap always somehow seeming to be above the law. so, i'm just curious your thoughts looking at trump over the past four to five decades

and seeing him being indicted. this is something that he has been skating on thin ice for many, many years now. >> he has been enjoys it until all of a sudden the ice cracks it is beginning to appear that way. donald trump's heroes were roy cohen, a lawyer that was the defense attorney for mobsters. he loved to play the game of i can get away with this and that. which is why i think people underestimate when they say that the new york case may be the weakest legal case and we don't know that because we don't know what the legal case is yet until we see the indictment unsealed because there could be more there than stormy daniels. we'll see.

but what i think they don't know is this is the most humiliating for donald trump because he is going to be brought in new york where he played the outsider and i'm going to show the park avenue guys that look down on me and my dad, that said i wouldn't be nothing and not president, he will be hauled into court, the same central park five, he took out ads, and be arraigned. saying we told you he was nothing but a crook. he was a scam artist would rath ere be arraigned anywhere than lower manhattan and discredited forever. this is going to be the ultimate humiliation for the guy that played the rat running from the whatever all of a sudden he gets caught

and he gets caught where it is most humiliating for him. >> a member of the central park five asked for a statement the one word was karma it is certainly true that donald trump is a creature of the new york tabloids. also has led to this indictment. bob woodward, i want to get your sense where we go from here and beyond this manhattan case as you rightly said there are other cases with more significance potentially looming. we talked earlier on the show about a fragile moment for the democracy this is and shaping the coming campaign. >> in the context, the next 20 months between now and the presidential election next year, think what's going on. the ukraine war which i think is the most complex, consequential

national security management problem a president has had to deal with since the cold war and maybe world war ii this is a time of tension and uncertainty. we are dealing and the world where's the virus? are there going to be new variants is it possible medically to have a handle on that and then we are dealing with inflation. my paper "the washington post" had a brilliant story if i may say with nothing to do with it on three families with the impact of inflation which is hitting tens of millions of people that is a political and personal life impact. so what happens in all these

investigations of trump? the reverend makes a good point. this should be or could be a humiliation for trump being dragged in, mug shot and all but he will attempt as he always has to convert it into a victory. so we have one of these people in this not just -- he is running for president again. the whole show that he could get the nomination he could be the next president it's a test for everyone for the country. i think for our business, the news media, to examine what is going on and dig, dig and dig deeply in to what really happened what is trump up to? who is he? >> "the washington post" bob

woodward, thank you very much. ken dilanian and jackie, thank you both for your reporting. jen will be back with us in the next hour of "morning joe. still ahead on "morning joe," a look at how new york city police is ramping up security after a manhattan grand jury indicted donald trump yesterday. plus new reporting about former president trump and the aides caught off guard about the timing of yesterday's announcement you are watching "morning joe. we'll be right back. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature.

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law enforcement is preparing for potential protests in the wake of the indictment of former president trump. nypd issued a memo yesterday requiring all officers to be prepared for deployment in the case of quote unusual disorder there is reason why police take

seriously the potential for violence in the wake of the trump indictment trump called for mass protests he referred to the manhattan d.a. as an animal and a danger who should be removed. he said the country is being destroyed. and that prosecutor is doing the work of the devil. amplified an image that the d.a. could be beaten with a baseball bat and warned of death and destruction if he is held accountable. coupled with the loaded language in the past about guns and hillary clinton and the praise of the january 6 insurrectionists including the collaboration with members of a prison choir incarcerated for attacking police joining us now the now executive

chairman of the risk, bill bratton. director of homeland security under president obama jeh johnson. >> what you would be doing this morning as commissioner of nypd? >> i'm sorry, joe. >> i'm curious what would you be doing to prepare to prevent the next january 6 if you were running the neighborhood again >> you began to see that yesterday with the increased security around the district attorney, district attorney's office security is increased. good news is that new york has great experience dealing with every type of experience in terms of terrorism or large crowds, demonstrations they will be monitoring social media. i don't think you will see huge crowds particularly from the

trump side mr. trump is not thought that well of in new york and manhattan. maybe larger crowds against him. >> good morning. when donald trump first said i would be arrested on tuesday a couple weeks ago there was a handful of trump supporters downtown protesting. can you speak as someone that served at the top of the new york police department at the resources it has and the intelligence it has and why it would be much more difficult and unwise to try to incite violence in lower manhattan >> after 9/11 there's 1,000 officers on collection jeh johnson as homeland security secretary, an example of close

collaboration here in new york city they analyze, gather intelligence these demonstrations are not picking up information about planned demonstrations and more concerned about the lone wolf. at the same time they have phenomenal resources to bring into this issue. last week in anticipation of an action last week they fielded what they call mobile field forces they put out ten over 400 officers. could respond quickly to any unplanned emerging situation nypd working with the counter parts will be very well prepared for this. >> we went through what could happen we know that this morning in palm beach a very small group of

demonstrators there. it is a large country. looking at the entire nation donald trump has supporters in the country. what steps do you think federal law enforcement is taking in case something erupts at a trump stronghold >> i want to echo what bill said i have confidence in the nypd. in 2015 when bill was commissioner and i was secretary we managed probably the largest domestic security in history with nato and the pope they know how to do this kind of thing. on the national scale, i am very concerned that former president trump has abandoned all moderation in his rhetoric it is overheated

what he is essentially doing in talking to the base and those as john put it is still under the spell is take up arms against the government, state and local. particularly after january 6 mr. trump ought to know the consequences of this rhetoric. he will swear i did not intend violence but there is a point when you do. i know that department of homeland security right now through the intelligence and analysis is closely monitoring social media all the sources just as is the nypd and the fbi looking for potential demonstrations that could turn violent on a national level whether in new york or mar-a-lago or anyplace else. i think they need to be vigilant

right now given the former president trump's overheated rhetoric. >> there are a lot of emotions people that have been anti-trump i among them how would you counsel them one of the things we have been saying is don't play into it don't be the ones that come out and try to go as we would say tit for tat with those that would want to see violence how would you counsel people that we are looking at a moment that we ought not to be celebrating? it is a sad moment how would you counsel the anti-trump crowd that may show up as the police commissioner said >> peace

demonstration. the right to protest is part of our history and culture. as you know, martin luther king would counsel demonstrations but always peaceful. after george floyd millions of americans took to the street i count mooyself as a protester as you were. so peaceful demonstration. peaceful exercise of the first amendment rights and the freedom to assemble is part of who we are as americans but always peaceful. >> a fact check if we can. talking point from the right in the aftermath is saying that bragg is too focused on donald trump and ignoring the crime happening in manhattan can byou provide context if

there's truth? >> the district attorney's office in manhattan can do multiple things at the same time the idea that the focus of the office on this case attracting resources to it but there's a large operation to focus on the crime situation. i'm a critic of the district attorney relative to the crime fighting in this city. make that known. the office is very capable to do the investigation of trump activity and focus on the crime situation in new york. >> bill bratton and jeh johnson, they for the insight. coming up, dan goldman was lead counsel for the impeachment investigation of donald trump. the new york democrat joins the

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no one is above the law including former presidents. let me be clear on that point. and the american people know this but in this case, and a controversy ocover campaign finance, i can speak to the issue from a question over campaign finance should never have riz on the the level to bring an unprecedented and historic prosecution. >> trump should have been treated different than michael cohen? >> michael cohen went to jail for lying to congress. this is about campaign finances and a tenuous at best.

>> i'm so confused willie, no man is above the law. but in this case donald trump is above the law. that's -- that's the argument they have to make. no man is above the law except for a failed reality tv show host who said let's terminate the constitution the thing is they're saying it about this case now. they watch him say it about the georgia case and the documents case and then watch them say it about the january 6 case whichever of the cases may come. they are always going to defend the failed reality tv show host over the rule of law and the constitution and the intel community and american colleges, over every institution that made this country great

for some reason they believe we are a nation of men and not a nation of laws. >> right either true or not that no one is above the law you can't say no one is above the law comma but. you are right. they and donald trump, his supporters in congress and mike pence and others are lay it is predicate in the first case. we don't know the case but they are laying the predicate for a weaponization. the justice department is going after donald trump because they don't want him to be president again and now they can use that again in georgia when that comes up again when the special counsel if he decides to prosecute in the january 6 case, the documents case at mar-a-lago that is the argument to prevent donald trump from being president again.

>> not just january 6. jon meacham talking about the men's grill enablers having it both ways. you know you and i, we have seen this all the time people come to us. i can't stand this guy this guy -- hate this. the worst. horrible for the party and then the men's grills and enablers will go on tv look at glen youngkin. and then they say the weaponization of the rule of law. it is such nonsense. >> we don't know what's in the indictment baseless accusation about any type of collusion or the rule of law being abused that is a fact check to what the former vice president said about michael cohen. cohen was convicted tied to the payments made to porn star

stormy daniels and lying to congress about a moscow real estate project at the same time securing the gop nomination in 2016. coming up, a next guest said that everything changes now that donald trump is indicted ari melber joinss ustraight ahead on "morning joe.

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we've been reading from peter baker's great analysis in "the new york times" this morning in light of the morning in light of the indictment of donald trump entitled "a president faces prosecution and a democracy is tested." peter writes, "for all of the focus on the tawdry details of

the case or its political impact, the larger story is of a country heading down a road it has never traveled before, one fraught with profound consequences for the health of the world's oldest democracy for more than two centuries, presidents have been held on a pedestal, even the ones swathed in scandal, declared immune from prosecution in office and afterward no longer. that taboo has been broken a new precedent has been set will it tear the country apart, as some feared after putting a former president on traial afte watergate? or will it become a moment of reckoning, a sign that even someone who was once the most powerful person on the planet is not above the law?

>> peter also says, while the indictment takes the country into unchartered waters, the authors of the constitution might have been surprised only that it took so long a president impeached by the house and convicted and removed from office by the senate, quote, shall nevertheless be subject to indictment, trial and punishment according to article i section 3 of the constitution. the writers of the constitution say ex-presidents shall be liable to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment. we've never done it before well, we're doing it now, just as the founders of the constitution foresaw. >> we are seeing that happen especiallybecause impeachment has sadly turned out to be a toothless remedy all of us factor those two trump

impeachments and the result was preordained from the beginning he was always going to win in the end and get off. impeachment is not going to strike fear in the heart of any president, especially donald trump. now that an expresident has been indicted, we've turned this presidency from this punishment free zone, which it has been for over two centuries, at least in terms of criminal punishment, and that will cause presidents to think they have to live by the same laws that the rest of us do. the other thing is, are we going to live in a system of mob rule? when donald trump puts up a social media post with his baseball bat with d.a. bragg at the right, essentially threatening violence against the d.a. and when he and his supporters threaten that mobs in the streets, groups of domestic terrorists maybe will descend on judges or juries or those in

favor of prosecution of donald trump, that's mob law. if we get into that, we're overturning everything that the founders believed. coming up, in the words of our next guest, ron desantis declares florida a sanctuary state. charlie sykes weighs in on the governor's efforts to shield donald trump from justice. "morning joe" is back in a moment your brother has landed in the dark lands. they're under bowser's control. [ screaming ] hang on, luigi. [ ominous music playing ] [ screaming ] yes! fire! [ chuckling ] staaaaacccceeeyyy! i'm the sizzle in this promposal. and tonight, sparks are gonna fly. kyle? and while romeo over here is trying to look cool, things are about to heat up. uh-oh. darn it, kyle!

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we've had a hell of a journey. i hate it being this way oh my god, i hate it from my point of view, he's been a consequential president. but today first thing you'll see, all i can say is count me out, enough is enough.

>> they're trying to destroy donald trump because they fear him at the ballot box. to the conservatives out there, make sure you vote if you got friends, make sure they vote. if you don't have any friends, go make some friends but you need to help this man donald j. trump. they're trying to drain him dry. he's spent more money on lawyers than most people spend on campaigns. they're trying to bleed him dry. do donaldjtrump.com go today, give him some money to fight this [ bleep ]. >> oh my god, lindsay is oral roberts up in his tower saying give me $3 million or the lord is going to take me home this is a guy like we've said before, i'm done with him, count me out he goes to national airport,

three people and the hound dog follow him and he's right back in they pull him right back in. and lindsay just keeps on giving i've known lindsay a long time i remember somebody saying, you know, i like lindsay, but i co wouldn't let him guard the pentagon because he switches sides so quickly you never know what side he's going to be on somebody said that like back in 1996 it's never changed wherever the breeze goes, he's just like kevin mccarthy, oh, i'm done with him, i'm done. then a couple days later, three people and a hound dog and lindsay is right back in there. >> yes i could be wrong maybe there was something else going on, allergies, but he had tears in his eyes as he made that passionate, emotional plea

for money. go give the billionaire a bunch of money to pay his legal bills. >> the billionaire who has scammed people out of hundreds of millions of dollars, i'm going the fight the big lie and he uses it for personal expenses, for legal fees and lindsay is feeling like he needs to go on and do the oral roberts routine? crazy. >> this is all in response to the historic news that came down yesterday. a new york city grand jury convened by the manhattan district attorney's office took the unprecedented step of voting to charge donald trump, the first ever criminal indictment of a former president of the united states. because the indictment is under seal, the exact charges are unknown. it could be a few days before we

know more. sources tell nbc news that prosecutor vers have no plans tk a judge to unseal the indictment today. what we know is that the charges center around a $130,000 payment trump allegedly made to porn star stormy daniels just days before the 2016 election to keep her silent about an affair she claims the two had a decade earlier. according to the star witness in the case, trump's own former lawyer michael cohen, the trump organization tried to cover up the payment, falsely claiming it was a legal expense. sources say the former president will be arraigned in manhattan next tuesday j one of trump's attorneys confirms the manhattan d.a.'s office wanted trump to turn himself in and surrender today, but they rebuffed the request, saying the secret service needed

more time to prepare however, secret service saying so far to nbc news, sources say trump's legal service detail could be ready to transport him to new york at a moment's notice the bottom line is the secret service excuse may or may not be there. >> it's not there. >> some think trump will take the time to drum up anger among his followers. >> it's not there. his lawyer claims that the secret service wasn't ready, so they rebuffed him. the secret service denied that claim to nbc news. so you have trump and his lawyer throwing the secret service under the bus for whatever political reasons donald trump wants to throw him under the bus. the secret service says, no, wasn't us. we're good. >> the secret service, off the record at least, made a point of

telling nbc news we can have him up there in a few hours if needed we are hearing from trump's camp there will not be a need for the extradition that governor ron desantis said last night he would not participate in an extra extradition. we'll see if he shows up in manhattan on his own joining us, our buddy ari melber also, the founder of the bulwark, charlie sykes and legal analyst charles coleman. we've used the word unprecedented a lot this morning, because it is it's also historic we've never seen this, a former president indicted it doesn't mean much beyond that

because we don't know what's in the indictment it is sealed right now we'll learn more perhaps next week about what the charges are against the former president of the united states. he'll get his due process in court. >> this is the first day of the rest of donald trump's life. it's going to be different as long as he is a defendant and dealing with these charges this is an arena he does not control. i think listening to you and joe and mika fact check what is a small exchange about the secret service is in some ways a reminder that donald trump's team habitually tries to express the appearance of control, that even against the actual authority of a grand jury and a criminal indictment they could somehow affect which day it is and lie or blame the security precautions, just as the president predicted his own arrest on a tuesday, trying to

act like he knew more than he did. they're going to run into the brick wall of the justice system as long as he is a defendant facing charges what will increasingly matter in his life is what a judge decides as a case proceeds and what a jury will decide if the case gets to trial. he's legally presumed innocent the burden is on the government. he can beat the case if he doesn't, he can lose the case what he just did with the secret service, that kind of casual lying doesn't work well with a judge that's deciding whether to sentence you to nine months in prison or two years in prison or five years in prison in that sense, it's a new day for donald trump and for america and the rule of law. it reenforces something we've heard often but have not often seen fulfilled, which is no person is above the law. >> it's a great point that ari

makes about the difference between donald trump lying on the campaign trail constantly and lying in a courtroom i remember when i first ran. i was a lawyer i was used to the rules of evidence, rules of civil procedure. i was shocked on the campaign trail there were no rules. oh my god, they can just say whatever this is reversed now for donald trump. he spent his life being able to lie, being able to live in his own reality, to tell people whatever he wants. and now he's going into an area where there are real consequences for that. charles, we all are going into a new area that we're not used to as a country we've been reading this morning peter baker's essay in the "new york times." he says here, that taboo has

been broken, new precedent has been set will it tear the country apart as some feared putting a frm ohoh -- former president on trial after watergate? will it become a moment of reckoning, a sign than even someone who was once the most powerful person on the planet is not above the law? whether the indictment is warranted or not, it crosses a huge line in american politics and american legal history your response? >> this is an important moment because it begins to socialize and condition the american psyche to truly understand and accept that no one really is above the law. i've heard a lot of people talk about the fact that this is a sad day, this is a tragic day for america. i have a different perspective my perspective is america cannot begin to aspire to the moral

high ground which it purports to have because it is run by people who are infallible that is not true, nor will it ever be true because countries are run by human beings, all of whom have flaws. what makes america separate in terms of its pursuit of that moral high ground is, it has in place systems like democracy that are intended to hold everyone accountable when we see these systems work the way they are working now and effectively hold people accountable, that is what separates america from the rest of the world it's important for us to feel proud that we are doing what the american experiment is intended to do by holding everyone accountable in the eyes of the law. >> to your point, joe, it's not just politics. it's the media where you can be like how can they say that with the law, it is different for trump.

there have been real consequences for members of trump's team correct me if i'm wrong, but not just michael cohen, weisselberg, bannon, manafort, the january 6th rioters, flynn these people have gone to jail that has become a reality that has already happened for them. politically most republicans are publicly supporting donald trump, many of them leaning into the same words, weaponization with no basis to that. kevin mccarthy writes that the manhattan district attorney has weaponized our sacred system of justice with no proof. steve scalise called the indictment, quote, one of the clearest examples of extremist democrats. >> they have no idea what the indictment is even going to say. >> senator rick scott of florida used similar language in his tweet.

florida governor ron desantis called it a, quote, weaponization of the legal system he went a step further to gesture and say he would not honor extradition laws and send him to new york when that has nothing to do with him and donald trump will be sent to new york with or without ron desantis virginia governor glenn youngkin also mentioned weaponization in his post on twitter. we talk about pearilous times ad these are. no matter what one feels about this, the unfortunate reality is this is a new reality for this country where a former president has been indicted. it opens the doors to a lot of very scary possibilities >> it's disappointing to see

even before we know even what the indictment is really about, the slew of republicans that have talked about weaponization. remember, it was only a week ago, maybe ten days ago that ron desantis stepped out and said, you know, i don't know anything about porn stars and paying off hush money and trying to hit donald trump that way. you know, as i like to remind people, you're now in the ninth year of dealing with donald trump as presidential candidate. already a week later, he's backing off, parroting donald trump's language glenn youngkin, people think maybe he can run for president he's mimicking that same language talking about weaponization. still, it's important that there are senate republicans, including mitch mcconnell, that are not doing that, at least not

yet. it is a perilous time and i think particularly for elected leaders, how they respond matters a lot. you saw it from senate republicans in the last couple of weeks that they've been holding their ground, that they're not buying into this language they're defending the rule of law. those voices are going to be needed in the next 18 months. >> you are right we haven't heard from mitch mcconnell or other senate republicans who usually, at least over the last couple of years since january 6th, have tried to hold the line against some of the more extreme statements coming out of the house and from people like rick scott in the senate. it is interest ing, john meacha and i were talking earlier this morning about how you always have the trump supporters.

these republicans are the great unwashed, they're the teeming masses, their pickup trucks with their trump flags. jon meacham was talking about this, the men's grill enablers, the people at the 19th hole that while they tell you -- the glenn youngkins, the country club republicans, they have contempt for trump. they tell you how much they hate trump. but when push comes to shove, they fall in line just like lindsey graham, kevin mccarthy and mtg. >> this is the story of the republican elite doing what they have done for the last eight years to enable and rationalize what he's doing. i still haven't gotten over that clip you played of weeping lindsey graham doing his oral roberts routine.

even by lindsey graham's standards of being a trump fluffer, that was really quite remarkable this is an important point, that the so-called thought leaders are not leading. the fact that they're all parroting the trump talking point script is a real tell. you're actually seeing how far they're willing to go. then you have ron desantis, who not only parrots the line, but manages to be weak, hypocritical and clueless at the same time by suggesting he might not cooperate with the extradition it's weak because he's caving to pressure from some of the maga influencers, showing he wants to hug trump as tightly as possible, but also shows there's no bottom to his desire and willingness to buckle to trump world. obviously he's clueless, because

as many people pointed out over the last 12 hours article iv section 2 of the u.s. constitution says states need to honor the indictments of criminals in other states. ron desantis nose better he knows that he's basically putting out bs, but he feels he needs to suck up to the man that he is running against. that tells you a great deal about this political moment. >> you correctly note we're in a new era now. the merits of this case are complicated to get a conviction. this is also of course only the opening act. there are several other investigations still going i want to get your take as to what your analysis is of what you've seen from some of the others, particularly jack smith. if he's trying to talk to vice president pence, there's only one step above that, isn't there? >> yeah. as mentioned, we can't assess what's in this indictment until it's unsealed, which normally in

new york would be on the arraignment expected next week we can say it's no longer unbres d unprecedented. what that does is whatever wrestling this d.a.'s office did about going first, about making this history, about this avalanche of headlines this morning, that won't happen next time obviously it would be significant, but it will no longer from this day forward ever be, quote, unquote, unprecedented. if you are in georgia as a d.a. local case or the justice department, you're no longer evaluating that. i think that makes it if you were looking at this as a general piece of analysis, it makes it more, not less, likely that an otherwise valid case would move forward, because it won't be unprecedented beyond that, doj has been moving up the line on the january 6th case and also classified

documents and georgia where trump is on tape and there has been target letters set. you have plenty going on i don't think the justice department has in its filings or public activities signalled they're in a rush to treat donald trump as a target by contrast, we've known legally trump was a target in new york at least since he was invited to face the grand jury. georgia has remained a mystery because d.a. willis made a fair amount of noise early on and then has gone quiet. >> charles, you talked about ho this indictment shows no one's above the law. that's a uniquely american concept and important to reenforce. do you think about in the court of public opinion, though, how this is going to be a treacherous time what needs to happen in the courtroom, what needs to happen

outside of the courtroom so the american public is brought along as part of this process? you know, there's polling that shows a majority ofamericans would think some of these charges are politically motivated. have you thought about that piece? >> sure. as a former prosecutor, i can tell you all vivin bragg needs o stay as far away from additional charges as possible and he should, because you don't want to make this any more politicized than it is you put any of those questions in the hands of the judge. i even doubt that he would do that i think a gag order would only come if there was a net effect of different things showing that trump's rhetoric was having an impact on the public in a way that required it if you're alvin bragg, all you want to do is the case

you don't want to do any interviews or have any conversations outside of the public i think fawn aknee willis hasn't said much. talking about d.a. bragg, because he is the first to bring the actual indictment, you will hear even less if you are the judge in this case, especially the trial judge, you have a lot on your hands to manage. there's the question of are you going to at some point need to issue a gag order around donald trump so he doesn't continue to use his public platform in a way that is going to endanger the jury, the prosecutors or someone else but that still gives america an opportunity to see in open court what is actually happening. >> charles coalman, charlie sykes and ari melber, thank you very much. "the beat" at 6:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc.

ahead on "morning joe," we'll be joined by congressman dan goldman, lead counsel for the impeachment investigation of donald trump plus, a verdict has been reached in the gwyneth paltrow ski crash trial. a jury found the actor not at fault for a 2016 accident on the utah slopes. we'll have the details next. >> they're trying to drain him dry. he's spent more money on lawyers than most people spent on campaigns. they're trying to bleed him dr i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi.

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♪ that's a beautiful sunrise over los angeles it's 6:25 in the morning, 9:25 here on the east coast a jury in utah found gwyneth paltrow not at fault for a ski crash in 2016, determining the man who sued her was the one responsible. >> was gwyneth paltrow at fault? no >> reporter: it took the jury roughly 2 1/2 hours to reach their verdict. gwyneth paltrow was not at fault and caused no harm to terry sanderson during their 2016 collision on a park city ski slope. the actress turned defendant, stopping to wish sanderson well after the verdict. >> her exact words, i wish you well very kind of her. >> reporter: paltrow was awarded

$1 as the eight-day courtroom saga came to a dramatic end. steven owens is paltrow's attorney. >> she has a history of advocating for what she believes in this situation is no different and she will continue to stand for what she believes is right. >> reporter: with duelling allegations, the trial boiled down to who you believe. the retired optometrist sued paltrow for $3 million after he broke four ribs and said he suffered permanent brain damage. >> was this worth it >> absolutely not. >> reporter: the jury decidiing sanderson was 100% at fault. >> i believe she thinks she has the truth. i believe she thinks that. i said i would not bring any falsehoods i'm going to tell the truth. and i did. >> reporter: during the trial, paltrow and sanderson both said they were the ones hit from

behind a parade of witnesses theorized who was at fault but it all came down to the actress and eye doctor. >> it was like somebody was out of control and going to hit a tree and was going to die. that's what i had until i was hit. >> i said, you skis directly into my effing back. he said, oh sorry, sorry, i'm sorry. >> reporter: the jury were hardly the only ones fixated on the utah hearing the case was live streamed and went viral on social media paltrow's attorney said the oscar winner was targeted because of her fame and wealth paltrow mouthing "thank you" to the jury after her win. >> nbc's miguel almaguer reporting. interesting to hear mr. sanderson say this was not worth it at all. he's probably right, because he's on the hook now for gwyneth

paltrow's legal bills. she was suing for $1 and legal bills. this was a unanimous verdict by the jury the jury believed her version of the story over his. >> very civil civil trial where you had her wishing him well and him saying afterwards i'm sure she thought she was telling the truth. let's turn to a look at the morning papers we begin in kentucky where the gleaner leads with two army helicopters that crashed wednesday night, killing nine soldiers officials say two black hawk medevacuation aircraft got into an accident during a routine training mission at ft. campbell the cause is under investigation. the claire i don't know ledger has a powerful tornado that struck mississippi last week, destroying homes and businesses

and entire towns, blamed for at least 25 deaths so far the president and first lady will survey the damage today and meet with local officialsto show the government's support. and pennsylvania senator john fetterman will return to work in april. fetterman checked himself into the hospital more than a month ago for clinical depression. now, sources say the democrat is planning to return to the senate the week of april 17th and in connecticut, the middletown press highlights a study that found many parents lied about whether their children had covid during the height of the pandemic researchers say 26% of parents surveyed admitted to being dishonest about their child's covid status 43% of those who lied say they did it because they didn't want their kids to miss school. 35% say they couldn't miss work to stay home with their child. 50% say they lied because they

wanted the freedom to do what they thought was best for their family >> there you have that individualism, that hyper individualism. we're in the middle of a pandemic at its height people said, i know my child has covid, and yet i have the freedom to send my child to school and infect people at school. >> yes during the height of the pandemic that is different for sure. coming up, we'll get back to the major story of the morning f former president donald trump indicted by a manhattan grand jury before we go to break, willie, what's your plan for "sunday today" >> another good one this weekend. five-time oscar nominee michelle williams is my guest. >> amazing. >> she's fresh off another oscar nomination for her performance in the "the fablemans" and now

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left wing prosecutor alvin bragg in new york, it kind of looks like he cannot indict a ham sandwich it looks like trump will not be indicted. >> all right we're going to break in with this fox news alert. we have just gotten word former president trump has been indicted by a grand jury in new york >> ham sandwich? indicted so it's interesting. so trump sets everybody up he said it was going to happen on tuesday so everybody reports it's going to happen on tuesday when it doesn't happen on tuesday, you have some trumpists taking victory laps, aha, he's

escaped again. at the end of the day, alvin bragg was just waiting so they go from laughing you see the laughter to suddenly this is a miscarriage of justice. what did they keep saying last night? >> welcome to the police state. >> a police state. here's the deal. if the rule of law applies to one guy, applies to the rest of us, suddenly there's a police state? again, they hate the military when trump is out of office. they say that rather there be a russian military, that our military be more like the russians they hate the fbi. they hate the intel communities. they hate college campuses in america, our universities, despite the fact that everybody

across the planet wants to come to america, send their kids to america to go to school, everyone we have the best university system on the planet we have the best military on the planet, the best intel community on the planet. they attack businesses, oh, they're woke they say woke so much it doesn't even mean anything at this point. there's all this hatred. now they are willing to completely eviscerate -- well, they praise a guy who said he wants to terminate the constitution of the united states. >> january 6th. >> the list goes on. they're willing to call our constitutional republic a police state all because of what happens to one guy, who is going to get indicted several more times. why? because in america, nobody is above the law.

i'm shocked this is so shocking to people at a different network, that the rule of law applies to everybody. >> joining us is democratic congressman dan goldman of new york we don't know what's in this indictment and we'll wait for that what comes to mind what were your first thoughts? what's your reaction to this former president getting indicted >> i think a lot of people have been focused on so much of donald trump's wrongdoing. i go back to that impeachment investigation that i led where he clearly abused the power of his office in a form of extortion for the president of ukraine to force him to do his political bidding. the law to donald trump does not apply to him what we're seeing now is an even

handed, very nonpartisan, apolitical pursuit of facts and evidence i think we have a lot of evidence to support that view. alvin bragg did not charge donald trump a year ago over the recommendation of very experienced prosecutors. so now that he has followed the facts and the law and the evidence and we'll see what that all is as it unfolds in court. now he's getting attacked in a way that can't possibly be based on anything, because we don't know what the charges are or the evidence is. donald trump will have an opportunity to defend himself in court, just like every other defendant in america he can challenge the law if he doesn't believe it's a good legal theory he can go to trial, confront witnesses, cross examine them

and rely on the fact there needs to be a unanimous verdict of 12 people to find proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the highest legal standard that's where this should play out, not in the halls of congress or the political sphere. >> your thoughts on the republicans that have come out on other networks or speaking across the board saying this is the weaponization of government accusing the biden administration of colluding with the doj. what's your reaction to your counterparts jumping to conclusions here >> yeah. it's completely baseless it is pure performative theater. to continue to support their leader, donald trump, to do his bidding, to be an arm of his defense team the overreach is so clear in congress where republican chairmen are trying to interfere

in a local prosecution in coordination with donald trump i mean, imagine that donald trump recommended the house republicans use their authority in congress to intervene in an ongoing criminal prosecution at a local level, and somehow they're the ones accusing alvin bragg of weapon n weaponizing the government or abusing his power. i'm confident we'll see alvin bragg followed the facts and the law. donald trump will have his day in court he is innocent until proven guilty he'll have an opportunity to defend himself. >> thank you very much for being on this morning. >> willie, the congressman brings up a great point talking about the weaponization of government you've got congress talking about investigating a local d.a.

it's just like they wanted to go in and tell the doj, hey, you need to give us any information on neighanybody you're investigg of course they make themselvesun desantis, who basically says i'm going to ignore the constitution of the united states because gesturing politically is more important to me than the strict adherence to the constitution at all. they do all of this stuff and they always end up looking stupid and losing elections after. >> they don't care they think it helps them raise money and get ratings. when lindsey graham goes on tv and literally weeps and asks for money for donald trump after this indictment comes down, he's not doing that because he believes that. he's doing it because he knows

the audience will respond to that you're right, but they don't care. >> jonathan lemire, it just keeps happening. they keep doing this gesturing where they know nothing is going to come of it and they keep losing elections because i guess the american people are onto them it's just the party of shock, outrage and gesturing. they just don't care about governing at the end of the day. >> they're speaking to a smaller and smaller portion of the electorate the trump base is getting harder, sure, more fervent, sure, but also smaller it's not enough to win we saw last november the biggest maga supporters and election deniers did not win with much success, with the exception of ohio as we start thinking about a national election in 2024, that

doesn't scale. they're going to be the underdogs. they can play to the fox news audiences. they know they'll get a sympathetic ear from the host as well as at home. they can rant and rave, but it's not going to help them going forward. yet, i guess it's proof that trump's grip on them is that much tighter they're still scared >> it doesn't work i guess everyone thinks they're the person that can thread the needle they seem to think they're the one that can somehow appeal to his base, but differentiate themselves enough if they're running for president or they're in congress. but what is happening at that oversight committee just blows my mind. talk about the deep state. you don't have oversight over

everything that happens in america. you have oversight for the federal government for them to be demanding that alvin bragg come up and testify, demanding that he turn over doc documents, talk about weaponization, that is a power control run amuck. still ahead, one of our next guests had a pointed message for lawmakers on capitol hill in the wake of the nashville school shooting. >> lord, when babies die at a church school, it is time for us to move beyond thohtugs and prayers. >> we'll speak to senate chaplain barry black when "morning joe" comes right back to help manage hunger and support muscle health.

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as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty.

all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important

than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty.

ten before the top of the hour, police in nashville have released 911 calls revealing the chaos and the utter terror from inside the covenant school as the mass shooting unfolded on monday nbc news correspondent catie beck has more. >> reporter: monday morning in nashville was like any other, the calls from covenant school began pouring in. >> i think we have a shooter in our church. >> reporter: terrified teachers barricading students from the gunfire they heard from rooms away calls from offices in the gym, children speaking to children in whispers afraid to be heard. just please hurry. on the other end of the line this team of five emergency dispatchers quickly declaring it mass casualty. >> there's been a school shooting and be prepared to receive

victim -- >> reporter: the calls quickly stacking up, dispatchers jumping from one call to the next, but aubrey warnick stuck on one line 36 minutes, it was a pastor hiding in a closet he was crying. pray with me we can't lose kids. >> reporter: george allen took a call from a teacher tucked away with 17 students, allen urging her to stay calm and hidden. >> they're frantic and that's all you can say is we're here. >> people say 14 minutes to us seems like hours. >> i think the hardest part for me was seeing the updates, the one by the main entrance to the three in the hallway we realized that it was real >> what's your name? >> chad scruggs. >> reporter: lead pastor chad scruggs rushing to the scene urged to stay away, his

9-year-old daughter inside, later identified as one of the six victims lost the new reality hard to accept >> it is very hard to wrap your mind around as a human being how this could even happen >> nbc's catie beck with that report, and here is what u.s. senate chaplain barry black said in his opening prayer the morning after the shooting >> lord, when babies die at a church school, it is time for us to move beyond thoughts and prayers. remind our lawmakers of the words of the british statesman edmund burke all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to

do nothing lord, deliver our senators from the paralysis of analysis that waits for the miraculous >> and chaplain black joins us now. he is a retired navy rear admiral, and we are honored to have you on the show this morning. i wanted to just ask why you decided to say those words in the two decades that you've been doing the prayer before opening the floor, it's a rare moment for you to do that. tell us why. >> after there is a shooting, i usually will say something in the prayer about it. in fact, the day before i ended the prayer by asking god to help

the people in mississippi and also i mentioned the nashville sh shooting in that prayer. we had just learned about it, but my siblings and i matriculated at church schools from grade one through college and for some of us beyond. we were always taught that a church school was a city of refuge it was a barrier against corruption and pathology it prepared you not only for time but for eternity. my three sons matriculated at church schools, my -- i met my wife at a christian hbcu in alabama in the 1960s, and so

this touched me. it moved me into a visceral way. i went into my office, i already had another prayer planned, and i just could not pray that prayer it was as if, well, i went rogue. i must confess i went rogue, and i scribbled down that prayer about five minutes before i had to be in the chamber. i dictated it to my communications director. she handed it to me. we always pray oaf the prayer before i deliver the prayer, and i went down and i went rogue forgive me, i went rogue and it was the knowledge that god blesses action god blesses what we do

not what we promise, not what we plan necessarily, if it is not accompanied by action, and it was a popeye moment. i've had all i can stands, and i can't stands no more it was time for the spinach, and that was what was going on, and that is what prompted me to essentially focus an entire prayer on what i saw as demonic. i really believe there's a verse in john 10: 10 that says the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. these are predatory forces, and someone has to do something. >> chaplain, we're so glad you went rogue that prayer resonated with so

many americans, and to hear it from you was so powerful, to say thoughts and prayers are wonderful and i share them but there's got to be action beyond that was particularly powerful coming from your voice unfortunately falls on deaf ears occasionally in the united states senate. a lot of people across the country heard what you said. what is your message to the people in the country who are hurting, the people in nashville, but an entire country that worries about this particular problem about what you prayed the other day >> well, willie, my message to them is gallations 6:9 do not become weary in doing what is right for in due season you will reap if you faint not. i'm a by-product of the civil rights movement. i was in college in alabama in the early '60s, and i remember i

thought when non-violent direct action was introduced that someone had inhaled something illegal. it seemed to me the most deranged, beat us in the head, kick us, whatever, something good will come out of it and it was counterintuitive, and -- but we kept pressing on, and there's a song we used to sing, keep your eyes on the prize, hold on, and there's a line in it i know the one thing we did right was the day we started to fight when you -- look at what we did with covid we set goals and we were able to do some amazing things with the vaccines we're better than this as a

nation, and we have demonstrated as a nation that fortune favors the doers. whatever you do says psalm 1:3, so don't give up keep pressing toward the mark of the prize, philippians 3, and remembering that if you keep persevering, it's like the story of the four soils in matthew cha chapter 13, 75% of the seeds miss good soil fell among the thorns, they fell among the wayside, trampled under feet birds took them away, but when it hit pay dirt finally, continuing, that's what we need to do. persevere, god is on your side >> amen. >> senate chaplain barry black, thank you so much for coming on the show this week we really need it this week more than ever. thank you. this just