on january six and shame on us if we don't take it seriously. and don't prepare for it >> right, we have actually see this before so we want to make sure that having known how thi can unfold, we take al precautions that it does not involve this way thanks to both of, you great t see what joe and freeman is professor of history and american studies at yale university, the author of book about political violence. they feel the, blood violenc and congress and the road to the civil war. jennifer reuben is an opinio writer with the washington pos and an author of resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump, still ahead former vice president mike pence said this week no man is above the law including former president but he also maintain that the trump indictment is quote the criminalization of politics straight ahead, i talk to hi former senior adviser olivia troye about pence's thinking and political calculations a he continues to mull a 202 white house run. another hour of velshi begin right now.

good morning, it saturday apri 1st. i am ali velshi, this week marked another inflection poin from the state of th democracy. donald, trump the rookie politician who somehow made it into the white house with zero political experience, only t be disgraced as the firs president to be impeached twic while in office. it is now the first current or former president to be criminally indicted in u.s history. nbc news has learned that hi indictment includes about 30 charges related to documen fraud, that's classified a misdemeanors and the associated press i reporting that according to it sources, trump is also facin at least one felony charge stemming from the manhatta district attorney, alvin bragg's investigation of the former presidents role in th hush money payments made to th former adult film actress, stormy daniels with whom he allegedly had a affair, donald trump denie that there wasn't a fair and any interview with the london-based times radio tha aired yesterday, daniel said

she is not afraid and even hopes to be called to testif against trump. trump's indictment is expected to remain sealed until tuesday afternoon when he is scheduled to turn himself in to be formally arraigned at manhattan courthouse while, there he will b fingerprinted, processed and have the charges read to him judge ron mayor shaw wil oversee the, cas coincidentally he is the sam judge who presided over th trump organization's crimina tax fraud trial late last year that resulted in the company being fined the maximum penalt of one point $6 million. now nine of, that the unsealin of the document, the indictmen and the formal arraignment and all of the logistics that go with it, none of that ha happened yet trump and many of his allies have already begun criticizing and accusing the justice syste being corrupt, and biase against him. donald trump like anyone accused of a crime in th united states is presume innocent until proven guilty also entitled to his day i court to defend himself, but his focus at the moment seem to be delegitimizing the justice system altogether,

calling the investigatio politically motivated, attacking the prosecutor alvin bragg and throwing aroun allegations of electio interference politically, it's a messag that is working for him. but no trump has bee fundraising off the news of hi indictment and his campaig says it received more than $ million at new donations in th first 24 hours after the new and the indictment broke i'm joined by paul butler, a former federal prosecutor an in msnbc legal analyst paula, good morning to you thank you for being with us. what do you make of everything that is happened since i kno you've been covering this an you've been on tv with us th last few days. but where we are, now we now know what donald trump's comin to manhattan, we know how this is going to proceed and we kno about the relentless attack by donald trump and republica supporters about the legal system and on alvin brag himself? >> so ali, this is not a political prosecution but it i a policy based prosecution brad matter -- of equal justice under the law

and that is so trump and his allies are mad about when it's for people, black an brown people who targets o no-knock warrants an prosecutions for misdemeanors. they love that but who can forget president trump telling those cops, when you arres suspects, don't treat them too nicely it's okay if they bang their heads, and they are getting in the squad car. now that it's trump whose head might get banged, thes republicans have suddenl developed a critique of th criminal legal system. >> let's talk a little bit about the danger and the threa to the prosecutors, that was always going to be the case an such a political case except that donald trump has gone out of his way and very much almos every other republican respons that we looked at remembers of congress go out of their way t talk about the left-wing radicalized, socialist, alvi bragg. now donald trump has also in the recent past called him a animal, and posted the truth social, re-posted a picture of

him with a baseball bat an alvin bragg's head so there is more here than the normal animist between a defendant and their prosecutor >> such an important thing ali trump does not like an prosecutor who's going after him but his critiques of d brag and also fani willis in georgia, it's about your intellect and qualifications that is different than what he said about robert mueller or jack smith look when bragg was a federa prosecutor, he specialized and public corruption. you know house a stream team o experienced assistant district attorneys who have been workin this case for two years. bragg has already beat the trump organization, on criminal case. he got a big fat guilt conviction against a corporation and his former cfo but the black prosecutors ar used to being underestimated ali. it happened to me all of the time when i was doing public corruption cases what th

department of justice. trump and his allies underestimate bragg as the peril. >> there was also the second part of, it we talk about th antisemitism consulate quoting george soros or calling hi soros, the man's never met george soros and, soros neve contributed to him, he can attributed to a fund tha supports liberal prosecutors that's at the implication of the jewish puppet master, also by implication is that progres that's about enough to figur this out on his own. >> exactly, again it's thi constant demeaning of th intellect of african americans generally and in this case black lawyers. and again it's not about fairness, they are not concerned about that at all. a few years, ago a reporte demonstrated that the manhatta district attorney sometime treats black and brown defendants differently tha white defendants that study found several racia disparities and i get th manhattan da credit fo conditioning that report

most prosecuting offices don't collect that information because they don't want to know the reality is is that the trump supporters who are sayin that they have two different justice systems in this countr are exactly right. but it's rich white men like donald trump to get all of the advantages, if you are a poor, person black or brown person who are subject to all of th investigations that trump ha been subject to, they would've been charged a long time ago >> kevin mccarthy said tha congress is going to investigate alvin bragg. i'm actually surprised tha alvin bragg gave them th dignity of her response but he did right back and say you don't actually have an authority over me. >> congress has no jurisdictio over this criminal case. did the eighth office told the congressman, their job is to pass laws. a criminal investigation o trump by new york state ha nothing to do with that. in, fact the da's office i required by federal and stat law to be independent of

political interference so when the republicans in congress are asking, what they are asking brag to do actually violates the constitution. the principle of separation of powers, they would break the law in new york for the eighth brag to reveal confidential, grandeur information he actually did what the republicans wanted him to do he would be committing a crime >> paul butler, good to see yo as always, paul butler's a former federal prosecutor an msnbc legal analyst. joining me now is olivia troye former senior aide to mike pence during his tenure as mike's president olivia, good to see you. just the other day your ol boss said no one is above th law including former presidents, yet here he is on fox news jus yesterday. >> the unprecedented indictmen of a former president of the united states on a campaig finance issue is outrageous. the details that will follow will not change that fact. i think millions of american looking on see this for what i

is it's a political prosecution b a manhattan da who literally campaigned for office on a pledge to indict the forme president. the attorney general of ne york campaign for office on pledge to go after that same american and this is not, this is not an expression of equa treatment under the law, tha every american deserves. this is just one more exampl of this to teared just thi system that has so man americans, literally questioning the fundamenta fairness of the administration of justice in our country. once again olivia, i do love the fact that your former boss does tend to confound me because he does a strong opinions on what donald trum did to him and risking his family and his safety. he is not a fan of how donal trump has behaved and he's presented himself as the guy who values fairness an politics at least on that fron

when it comes to democracy what is going on >> again, another disappointin take in the life of mike pence i mean what is really actually even more agree just here in upsetting is the fact that millions of americans believ that mike pence because you ar lying to them every single day and others who are the leaders of the republican party ar delivering these narrative that are false and are undermining our government institutions and our judicia system that is why those millions o americans think that this is a political hitch hogg they did not make that up an by doing that, my greate problem with this ali, is th fact that he is attackin americans who are sitting on the grand jury that is what these people ar doing, they are attacking thei peers who are sitting there on that jury. the jury that is making this decision, he was looking at al of the facts and you know that is how they are issuing thes

relationships. it's not alvin bragg on his ow doing this in a silo it's how the judicial proces works but the problem is the people that need to hear i aren't hearing it because al of these people are on these networks pushing the same lies every single day >> yes, and the law is interesting to me because even those who have sort of bee mentioning a few times in th last hour or so, people who ha the opportunity to say, alas the rich a justice, system wil be a jury of his peers, a judg supervising this you will have the ability to o his lawyers in court he will have his day and h will be proved not to be guilt of these crimes but that is no the response the response tends to be a witch hunt, bullet eli's asian george soros, lefty radicals whatever the cases i am puzzled why republicans aren't just putting forth like i said, i read a quote from do bacon of nebraska, the only on who is that i trust a lega system there are checks and balance what the juries, judges an appeals. president trump will be able t make us defense and we will al see if this is a part of the

prosecution or not there is the answer. not exactly it, this is moment, a defining moment fo our country i believe. and the damage that all of these people are doing wel likely last decades becaus it's very hard to come bac from this, especially for th democracy. and they could be exhibiting leadership instead they could choose to say let's play out, let's sit back and see what happens by the way all of these people who want the crown, the crow jewel of the oval office a lot of these people ar running for that slot. you know and instead, instea of exhibiting the leadership that our country needs right now, i think this will backfir on them in the end because loo not all republican voters ar okay with this not moderate voters, i mean we are all sitting there and ar conservatives like me who ar appalled at how this plays out because it used to be th republican party believes in the ideals of the rule of law. the party of like strong government line force, meant defense bu instead here we are and we are undermining the institutions over and over again and i will

say this, look i served national security for almost 2 years in and around government under the bush administration. i was a political appointe during that administration i served under the obama administration as a career intelligence officer and that' an as a career intelligenc officer under trump. the only time that i had worry and sometimes sick to my stomach of watching th government be used against the people was under trump well there was the travel ba with racist undertones, wher they believe the intelligenc community, where they wanted a certain narrative to be pushed out and we were sitting strong my colleagues credit it was hard, there was tha weather was ukraine and russia and what happened there. i live the impeachment internally firsthand in ho they handle that whether it was covid and the policies that were pushing and how they were pushing fals narratives and sitting out there about clorox and all o that and bullying the cdc. that is what the trump administration was it was those people who ar using the government against the american people. and so you know, mike pence wa

there for all of that. >> there is a lot i want t keep on going on thi conversation with you. let's take a quick break and continue on the other side olivia troye will stay with me coming, up donald trump ha been indicted as you know th stormy daniels hush money case that is not the beginning or the end of his legal troubles, we will break down for you the seven investigations int donald trump, plus putting the trump indictment into a global perspective. how other countries are lookin at this role in american new cycle and wondering what we ca learn from other democracies that i've grappled wit criminal investigations up top public officials there's my little marzipan! [ laughs ] oh, my daughter gives the best hugs! we're just passing through on our way to the jazz jamboree. [ imitates trumpet playing ] and we wanted to thank america's number-one motorcycle insurer -for saving us money. -thank you. [ laughs ] mara, your parents are -- exactly like me? i know, right? well, cherish your friends and loved ones. let's roll, daddio!

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aide to mike pence during hi time as vice president olivia, i want to sort of take a look, i asked you to help me with this. take a look at the screen. so, we can take a look at th book that you got on you shelf. you've got michael cohen's book, disloyal

and that's interesting because this is a guy who is central t the prosecution and donald trump has been attacking witnesses to this case you have been one of those people that has been sort of o the wrong side of th government while you are in it >> yes, i appreciate you bringing that up because thi week, those of us who have bee in touch with each other, yo know, while people think tha we might be celebrating behind the scenes, this has been very anxious and very draining week, personally, for many o us, who keep waiting, waitin for accountability for someone who has done s many bad things along the wa and i have to say, there's bee a heaviness across all of us and yes, there were tear across some of the circles o maybe finally relief that ma be the rule of law wil actually catch up and play a role in this but it's also been disheartening when i watch wha

happened across the republican party. and, look, these people have destroyed lives. they're still doing it today they are out there attacking people, they're out ther spreading disinformation every single day that is so harmful, but at the end of the day, all of these people are huma beings and many of these peopl took the stand to tell the truth and spoke truth to power and we are all just sittin here waiting to see how this plays out. i just for once, i'm looking for a leader i'm looking for a leader on th right, a true leader to take a stand and say, enough. >> because what happens here influence is what people lik you or others who are in government, who decide to say, here's something that th american public needs to kno that's incorrect in other countries, we are going to discuss this in a few minutes. in other countries, this often fails very badly for people wh are critics, whistleblowers, opposition members, or who wan to fix their own political party. as you do. what happens next, with respec to witnesses and with respec to those who come forward, i

actually critical for th survival of the our democracy, moving forward >> that's exactly it and m greatest fear is that, shoul some of these people return to office and gain power, in term of these inner circles, yo will see the decline of america, as we see it today we will no longer be tha country. we are already on that path an i can't, i feel like it's no hyperbole. this is where we are we have a choice today, as americans, and i'm asking th republican leaders out there conservative leaders, to please, look, we need to take a stand. we need two functioning partie to survive as a democracy, right? i mean, that's what our system is based on right now. where better with a stronger honest, cooperative republican party. that is what is needed right now. the only person i've actuall seen someone speak with trut and bacon on a statement about this whole situation i possibly governor hutchinson

who actually released statement and said, donald trump should not be president, then he said it's up to th voters to decide okay, fair enough. but he didn't attack the da. he didn't attack the judicia process. >> that's the line, that's the line is - >> he said respected, that's line respect the process, let i play out >> so, mike pence is sort of straddling that line he's calling it political. he doesn't go as far as others and calling it illegitimate. he doesn't usually racist an antisemitic tropes that we'v seen tell me about what he's doing, trying to do because he might be central, not to this particular investigation, but some of the others that are underway, with respect to january six >> he is and look, i think he' trying to figure out politically, how he walks this fine line, how he courts - obviously, celebs with him, th trump followers out there. but the other issue is for mik pence, i think he's sort o

boxing himself into th situation because he has fully the right to speak out and start telling the truth. he could actually be a leade in the situation i wanted him to be that leader on january, you know, seventh, the very next day. i wanted him to stand up and say, look, this is all wrong we're going the wrong directio here, we need to start actuall functioning as a country, an what's happening here is thi there is this dangerous ma that i have actually witnessed and lived behind the scenes, firsthand what he's capable of because he was there all fou years, just like i was and we have seen what this man is capable of doing. and his voice could be powerful and instead, he's actually hurting himself, i think, an any political chance that he might have by going along with donald trump he's playing this enabler once again, and so, i think, yo know, is he running for donald trump's ex president again is that what's happening here? because that is what it look like and i can't tell you how

disappointing that is. >> it's strange because this i his moment to be able to say, don't subscribe to the stuff he sort of comes out on thre quarters, says it sometimes, and then, you know, push comes to shove, he goes goes bac into this unusual mode olivia, thanks 1 million a always olivia troye is a former homeland security adviser an counterterror adviser to the vice president, mike pence right after the break, the stormy down such money case is not the only legal battle that donald trump is fighting may not even be the first want to make it to trial, believe i or not we're going to have more on th other investigations after this this s... let me tell you about the greatest roster ever assembled. the monster, the outlaw... and you can't forget about the boss. sometimes- you just want to eat your heroes. the subway series. the greatest menu of all time. family is just very important. she's my sister and, we depend on each other a lot. she's the rock of the family. she's the person who holds everything together. ♪♪ it's a battle, you know

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the many and varied lega troubles donald trump is facing, so let's make it easy. he has the investigation and now indictment against him for the manhattan district attorne relating to the hush money payments made to stormy daniel at the end of the 2016 campaig cycle. he has that new york attorne general civil case i jus mentioned. laetitia james is suing trum and the trump organization for fraud involving misleading representation of properties i order to get better loans an insurance. the penalty of that could be a quarter of a billion dollars the fulton county district attorney in georgia is investigating trump's effort to overturn the 2020 electio results in that state, which included then president trump' infamous phone call to georgia 's republican secretary of state, brad raffensperger, demanding he find enough votes for trump to win there are two department o justice investigations, both being overseen by specia counsel jack smith one focus is on trump's role o january 6th, the other focuses on the tens of thousands o documents classified and otherwise, which trump too

with him to mar-a-lago and other properties when he lef the white house. and whether trump tried to obstruct that investigation. trump is also the subject of two defamation lawsuits by e jean carroll, previously accused trump of rape in a department store in the mi 1990s. the second of those lawsuits could potentially go to tria later this month joining me now is cynthi oxidation, former federa prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. cynthia, these trials all take a lot of time. the manhattan da one i actually interesting because a lot of the information i already out there. there have been depositions, there's a lot of detail. but it's still going to take, don't know, many months to a year or more talk to me about the timing of these cases. is it clear that this one goes to trial first if there are other indictments will there be any reason for another one of these cases t go to trial, ahead of this how does that all work >> well, this case wil probably go to trial in about year so, you know, welcome to easte

next year, this is what we wil be doing but remember, this month, tw big cases are going to trial now, we cited the e. jea carroll case guess what that's a rape case it's not a case about e. jea carroll, it's a case about rape. and then trashing the woma after rape and that is not helpful. if you want to pick a jury dow the road, it's not helpful tha you've been accused of rape. so, that affects the jury pool in this case, because they'r both in manhattan. and of course, there will be s much national press, no matter where it is. the other case that's going to trial this month is th dominion suit. now, the president is not party in the dominion suit, bu fundamentally, the dominio suit says that president los the election and it was all bs okay, that doesn't help him at all. so, those two cases are this month. and then we have all the other cases that he brought up all i can say about the othe cases is, come on in, th waters warm, you know? where in the pool. let's get going.

>> is there any degree o coordination between the various people making this case? obviously, they're all going t get their own, whether it's special grand jury in georgi or jack smith. they've all going together o ducks in order, but does anyon say to anybody else, modify in front of you in line here? i've got to play the catch >> no, absolutely not. the only person who make som kind of calculation like tha is jack smith, and he makes it within his own two big investigations but no, i would say there's no chance that fani willis an alvin bragg, jack smith ar strategizing i think that would be a prop o proper, and i don't think an of them would do it. >> so, i was talking to judg michael luttig earlier between tristan comment. he said, this is not, this i the least good first case on would want to see on thi front. largely because his concern is about american democracy and would've liked one of the case that was more directly tied to trump interfering in the democratic process to be heard first. what's your take on that >> absolutely. i mean, the -- of trump's crimes, to me, is

essentially the seditiou conspiracy i think that's the heart and soul of it and i had been on the record for a very long time that this is not my preference but it is what it is and her we are, and they were facing a statute of limitations issue and they had no choice and i have to say, the mor trump threatens the prosecutor and the more he puts out baseball bats to the prosecutor's head and calls fo death and destruction, other things, the stronger i fee that it's important to hav this case go forward because here is what i happening. trump, nobody ever holds him t account. it's all moved everybody goes around him an moves. -- he's not a bad lawyer. he's on television excusin this behavior. he knows better than that. everybody does that becaus this guy is such a bully and because he has done this now, feel more strongly about thi case than six months ago i would be like oh, forget it. but now that he's behave thi

way. oh, you know, all engine forward. let's go >> cynthia, thank you, a always we appreciate it since the auctions of former prosecutor and an msnbc lega analyst. we just got an update, by th way, out of arkansas there have been a number o deadly storms across the south and the midwest, including i arkansas here, you are seeing video o the governor of arkansas, sara sanders, who just made som public comments. i'm going to check with my controller do we have those yet or are we going to be turning that on? all right, we're going to turn that around for you. at least 11 people are dea across the country, across the south and the midwest becaus of a series of storms that hav taken place overnight. and of course, there are mor storms that we had just th other day. we will bring you complete coverage on those multiple catastrophic tornadoes tha have torn through severa states stay with us stay with us i swear”) plays ♪ jaycee tried gain flings for the first time the other day... and forgot where she was. [buzz]

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deadly tornadoes that slamme parts of the united states has just gone up since we last reported on this story this morning, we have learne of four more deaths, bringin the total number of weathe related deaths to 11 acros five states. nearly 50 tornadoes were reportedly ripped throug several states late yesterda and into the morning little rock took one of th biggest direct hits. the national guard in the stat has been activated and a state of emergency is currently in effect joining us now, nbc news correspondent, ron allen fro little rock, arkansas. and again, i remind people rock, little rock is a built u

industrial area. it's a buildup city, it's go city level infrastructure that typically doesn't get damage by these kinds of storms they got hit hard. >> they got hit very hard an it's a city of about 200,000 people, and the mayor and th governor just said that abou 2000 or so residents homes wer impacted and that is what has happene to some of them. you can see some of the damage behind me. it's just unbelievable to se trees ripped up by their routes, roofs off of homes, and these, as you say, are substantia homes. the governor pointed out tha there have been five confirmed fatalities in this state there's still about 27 t 30,000 people without power. she's been in touch with president biden and fema she said and the federal government has offered to help in any way they can. unclear resources they may b sending here but yes, it's been quite a scene here not all over little rock, bu

in pockets because we know hurricane's a, tornadoes com and rip through a swath of a area some meteorologists locall have been reporting that it ma have been about a half a mil wide and they've been on the ground in the state for as far as 40 miles, which is pretty significant. here's a man, a witness who sa it coming. listen to what he had to say >> i looked back and there was a tornado coming up over the hill, so got out of my truck and started running for shelter. made it into one of the little salons over here, got in, an as i got in, huddled up agains the cement barrier every single glass windows ble out and people were blown back and i held on, it must of been a minute just huddled, i thought i was a goner, for sure >> as far as we know, he i okay the governor and mayor jus said that the hospitals are no

at capacity and they're able t deal with the dozens or so patients who have come i beginning last night there is still som hospitalized, but we don't hav a lot of detail about thei conditions but what you see across this town and these pockets tha were hit by the tornado is a lot of cleanup we hear a lot of chainsaws everywhere because there are s many trees that have bee ripped up. and that is going to go on her for sometime because as far as we know, there's still a state of emergency in effect her while this cleanup tries t gather some momentum today >> yeah, it's always amazing how quickly after the series o storms at first light, you see people coming out and they'r not sitting around lamenting it's always amazing to see people just start getting to work even in the smallest ways, sorting things out looking at the aeria photographs of this and one of the things that's interestin is while tornadoes do sometime just have a narrow path, and you could have somebody down the street completel unaffected by it, in that path it looks as if houses and cars were put through a shredder.

>> yeah and this is one place, as we were driving in here where you could see where th tornado apparently jumped over a highway. across the way in that direction is a strip mall of stores, and their damaged. then there's a place where there is no damage and yes, th thing about tornadoes, they're just so random and yes, the shredding that's a good word to describe it what it does to communities. i mean, these places are devastated they seem inhabitable. they're trying to restore powe as best they can they're still, again, pocket that are not without power i don't want to leave th impression that the entire capital city is devastated that is not the case but there are areas, significant areas, wit significant damage and again still a lot of concern peopl trying to figure out what to d next, where they can get help, how they can begin to rebuild. the good news, it's a beautifu day here and as you said people are out and about, an this is also, i might point out, a community where faith is ver

strong a lot of talk about faith in the briefings with governmen officials and everyone else, and that seems very strong here, as well. >> ron, good to see. thank you and it is good tha it's a sunny day because i does, at least, help peopl move on with the cleanup tha is so important to both th rebuilding and the healing process. nbc's ron allen is live for us in little rock, arkansas we will continue to bring yo coverage of these devastatin storms that seem to be going through america every day th last few days. the world is watching americ right now. coming up next, the indictment of the former u.s. president from a global perspective. severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. ♪things are getting clearer♪ ♪i feel free to bare my skin♪ ♪yeah, that's all me♪ ♪nothing and me go hand in hand♪ ♪nothing on my skin♪ ♪that's my new plan♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ achieve clearer skin with skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin,

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the former president of th united states of america's major news not just here in the u.s., but around the world take a look at some of the headlines made internationally in the calgary sun, the on word says it all indicted in australia, sydney morning herald, they provided live coverage of the story as i

developed. the headline on france's lamon says trump becomes first forme american president to be indicted the bbc at, what happene between stormy daniels and donald trump following news of th indictment, trump fired off series of posts on his socia media platform, truth social including this quote the usa is now a third world nation a nation in serious decline. trump's efforts to characteriz a legal proceeding against him as a former politica persecution, akin to wha happens in dictatorships, is not borne out by the facts democracies around the world routinely prosecutor leaders and former leaders for wrongdoing the u.s. is arguably an outlier, in this respect. might be worth looking at some of these examples from the las 20 years, to better inform ourselves, as our nation enter uncharted territory. israel is perhaps the most obvious place to start, wher mass protests have bee engulfing the nation for months, in response to prime ministe benjamin netanyahu's propose overhaul of the israel judiciary. in recent years, netanyahu has

faced indictment in thre corruption cases many believe his 2020 trial an legal woes are connected to hi attempt to dismantle the judiciary because the overhaul would also allow his far-right government to overturn supreme court decisions. like trump, netanyahu is tryin to cast his indictment a political persecution by a radical left over in south korea, which i only been a democracy for 36 years, four recent president have been criminally investigated and to have bee imprisoned those prosecutions have no eroded the country's democracy the russian impose rights. on the contrary, despite being home to a political scene as angrily polarized as the unite states, south korea has manage to weather the storms over corrupt former presidents an maintain peaceful, democrati order, as power shifted from right to left and back americans would do well to pay attention, and quote in france, former presiden nicholas sarkozy was convicted twice on corruption charges. his predecessor, jack chirac

was curve convicted in 2011 of various crimes, includin embezzlement and abuse o public trust in both cases, the washingto post notes that the cour system was able to weather accusations of political bia because it was transparent over in italy, former prim minister, silvio berlusconi, has been accused of bribery, tax fraud, and witness intimidation he was convicted of tax frau in 2013. berlusconi, the billionair magnate who now sits in th senate, even had to perform year of community service fo that conviction. joining me now is asha rangappa, she's a senior lecturer an assistant dean at the yale jackson school of global affairs. she's also a former fbi specia agent with the counterintelligence division and the editor of just security asha, good to see you. thanks for being with us this is a really, really really important point o context. prosecuting current and former politicians and leaders does not actually destroy you democracy. in some of these examples we'v seen, it strengthens it. >> yes, it feels

counterintuitive because we do tend to associate, you know, prosecuting former leaders a being associated with banana republics. but actually, a study that was done by axios found that since 2000, 78 former leaders and 70 countries have been jailed o prosecuted since 1980, about half the countries in the world have ha such a case. ironically, monarchies and dictatorships are the places that are least likely to hav former leaders prosecuted an jailed you know, i think the former part is really important,ali because we definitely have obstacles in holding sitting presidents to account, because of the vast immunity's and privileges that that offic holds. but i think that we ar definitely outliers when tha person becomes an ordinary citizen. we have chosen to not take those steps until now. >> it is interesting though. there's a flipside to this and that is those places in which government comes in and then

weaponize that governmen against former leaders, where, and i think donald trump would like us to think that is what' going on here. there are instances in the world, in which that happens >> absolutely. i think this is where proces is so important. process, process, process. there are certain key features that we need to look to to see whether those are legitimate prosecutions are there robust protections for the defendant that allow them to present a vigorous defense? is their independence betwee law enforcement and the ruling party? is there an independen judiciary that can be fair and impartial? and i think all of those key features will determine whether, you know, this is some kind of rogue, politically motivated type of prosecution or one tha is done in accordance with the rule of law. and i think that here, w really do have a robust an

impartial judicial system. and i think trump will b entitled to present his defens and have a day in court, and h may even be acquitted. >> let's talk about this particular case because ther were certain people involved i the payment of money to stormy daniels. there was stormy daniels, ther was michael cohen, there was david pecker from the publishe of the national enquirer, alle weisselberg may have had som involvement in this becaus they say that nothing happened with trump's money, bu weisselberg involved and o course, there is donald trump. one of the things donald trump has tried to do, not wit weisselberg and not with pecker, but with stormy daniels an michael cohen, is to undermine them, to target witnesses, t make their credibility, to mak them seem less credible in the eyes of the public i don't know if that's going t work with a jury >> well, i think we need t distinguish between the cour of public opinion and the cour of law trump plays -- in the court of public opinion and he's not going to be abl to do that in a court of law and we saw that last week when

he had the opportunity t present a witness to the grand jury he presented his former lawyer robert costello, who tried t undermine michael cohen. i think the version that was presented was that storm daniels approached michael cohen and i think, you know, sort of engaged in some kind o shakedown that trump had nothing to do with this. michael cohen did this on hi own, to respond to her request and the facts are that this wa being done as a part of larger arrangement with th national enquirer to bur stories that were potentiall damaging to donald trump befor the election and it was david pecker wh forwarded stormy daniels t cohen. those are the facts, you know? you're not going to be able to spin in a court of law the way that you can in public, and think he's going to have a muc more challenging time there. >> - came from the washington journal's editorial boar response to the indictment the other day that the wall street journal said, once a forme

president and current candidat is indicted, some loca republican prosecutor will loo to make a name for himself b doing the same to a democrat now, in response to that, yo tweeted, you said, once again, this is so disingenuous. this isn't some loca prosecutor, like some rando. is the prosecutor of the city, where trump resided and th business for over half a century. tell me more about this. >> yes, you know we all subject our selves to the jurisdictions of the state we live in, and we agree we're going to pay taxes and we will follow the rules the vast majority of law, an the vast majority of crimina law, is at the state level and states are separat sovereigns than the federa government they have their own interest to vindicate and if a crime ha been committed, in the state o new york by someone who is living there, whose earnin money, who was doing busines there, and they are entitled t charge that person for the crime. you know, this isn't som prosecutor in idaho that's jus decided to bring a case agains donald trump and again, we get back t

process. the manhattan da had to presen evidence to a grand jury showing that there was probabl cause that a crime was committed before thi indictment could issue it's not something that he could just decide to do on his own. and i think that that hurdle and on top of that, the hurdle to prove this case beyond reasonable doubt, is what make this, you know, illegitimate - >> there's an actual trial tha has to come. donald trump is entitled to th protections every american citizen has. he's innocent unless and until proven guilty in a court asha, good to see you, thank you for being with us. -- senior lecture and assistant dean at yale jackson school of local affairs and a former fbi special agent. that does it for me. thank you for watching, come back here tomorrow morning normal time, 10 am, to noo eastern. i will be hosting specia coverage of the indictment o the former president, donald trump, tomorrow night starting at 6 pm eastern. i'm joined by my colleagues, simone sanders, katie fang jonathan capehart, and the reverend al sharpton

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in