i will have to say that this kept me so busy that i misse the chicken wings on the ninth floor. so i will have to make arrangements >> listen, you still have some time go enjoy the rest of you evening. thank you so, much it is great to see you my. friend and good evening to you at home. welcome to a special edition o ayman. it has been a wild 48 hours, and you certainly know the new by now donald trump has bee indicted tonight we are going to give you the context and th perspective you need t understand how these next fe weeks and months will unfold you are gonna hear about the strength of allen bragg's case about donald trump, an congressman tailed lieu will respond to republican attack on the da. and later, the other massive legal news from the week, th fox dominion defamation lawsui is going to trial. guess which box stores are o dominion wished witness lists? i am ayman mohyeldin and let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪

to start this hour, let's brea down all of the news and how i view the trump indictment. sources familiar with th matter tell nbc news that trum faces around 30 charges of documented fraud connected to hush mone payments that he allegedly mad to cover up fast affairs in th run up to the 2016 election. two sources tell the associate press that it includes at leas one felony offense, and th exact charges at this moment against the ex president are still unknown. because the indictment remains sealed nbc news has now joined coalition of news organization urging that the indictment t be unsealed, citin overwhelming public interest ahead of trump's scheduled arraignment next tuesday that group is also requestin that cameras be allowed inside the courtroom during tuesday's proceedings. according to the new york times, trump and his aides were caugh off guard by the timing of the grand jury indictment which wa made public thursday afternoon thinking that any action was

perhaps still weeks away, or that it might not occur at all trump's apparent surprise that the mayor prospect o accountability is the result o his 50 years of evading actual justice. his first known brush with the law came back in october o 1973, that is when federal officials accused trump and hi father of violating laws tha barred racial discrimination i apartment rentals. trump later settled that sui in the agreement he signed i contained no acknowledgment of wrongdoing in 1988, he agreed to pay seven drug 50,000 dollar penalty to settle a suit wit the federal trade commission for violating antitrust laws overstock trades fast forward to 2016, trum paid a 10 million dollar civil penalty on one of his resort for violating the bank secrecy act. and then in 2018, a federa court approved a 25 millio dollar settlement in the trump university lawsuit

that list of course is just th abridged version of trump' decades of legal troubles. but what is missing from tha list that i just read is accountability for donald trum himself. justice. look, times aren't reall accountability sending lawsuits isn't reall accountability even when he was in the whit house and he became the firs president in history to be impeached twice. trump didn't face actual justice. because he was the first president in history to also b acquitted twice. as maggie haberman put it in the new york times the reality is that he has feared and avoided a indictment for more than fou decades. and now that fear has been realized and when it comes to accountability for the first time in his life, donald trump is simply out of control the man who has spent his life ruthlessly maneuvering to ge his way is now at the mercy of a justice system he cannot bully, even if he and othe

republicans try to intimidat the district attorney. stormy daniels said this week, trump is no longer untouchable and that nda alvin bragg jus shattered a 50 year old myth about donald trump tough on - teflon don estefan more. he like the rest of us has t answer for his actions with that let's bring in m all-star panel for the evening -- this is a lawyer and forme special agent for the counte intelligence division of the fbi. she is now a senior lecturer assistant dean at the lila jackson school of global affairs. michael isikoff is the chief investigative correspondent fo yahoo news suzanne craig is a investigative reporter for the new york times and an msnbc contributor and jennifer reuben is a opinion writer for the washington post and an msnbc political analyst. it is great to have all of you with us. i would love to start with you as i mentioned, that indictmen is sealed. and maybe, you know, it migh be unsealed for tuesday. but for now it is sealed we don't know yet what the charges that are being loved against the ex president are

but based on what we do know about alvin bragg' investigation that has bee reported in the public, what are you expecting one that indictment is unsealed o tuesday? >> well, ayman, i don't thin it is any secret that this i centering on the hush mone payments to stormy daniels and i think that what th prosecutors office had honed i on was how those payments were reimbursed to michael cohen. now remember that michael cohe took out home equity loan, h paid stormy daniels, this is after she tried to shock tha story to the national enquirer and they passed and they tol michael cohen, you know, you can take care of this as par of a larger agreement, by th way, to bury stories that migh be detrimental to donald trump and it in advance of the election karen mcdougal also had a stor that they buried but when trump paid this back, what he did was he concealed them as legal fees to michae cohen. in multiple installments and that is how they would b

on the books so this will center around a falsification of busines records. whether they are able to bum that misdemeanor up to a felon by linking it to an attempt to further conceal another crime? it is really the big questio here >> suzanne, you have followe trump four years, i have jus recounted some of his lega history, a very abridged version of that he's adept at using the legal system to benefit. delaying and often evading wha i would argue any real consequences despite payin those penalties and fines an settlements. will trump's usual legal strategy succeed here? could it succeed here? >> right, he has a very long history of delay and legal tactics. often, you know, he does not even do that when it isn't his benefit. but he fights at almost ever corner every turn it is almost like a gu instinct it goes back to the suit tha you've mentioned

where his father got int trouble for not renting to block people back in the 70s i think we are going to se that here. the difference is and it i really important that ever consequence in his life so far has been civil and he will either pay a [crowd chanting] fine, sometimes he pays a fine and he settles but it is always been, civil and this criminal. and you saw even when the trum organization went to trial las year in a criminal setting there was some twists and turn to that. but it got to trial. with just over a year. criminal cases do tend to just move, you know, more quickly and i don't think we are going to see a settlement. you can never say for sure i this but i just think it will mov it more quickly. but you are going to see i every turn he is going to try every legal move in the book to delay this >> yeah, i remember even how long it took just trying to ge his irs taxed statements and how he fought that all the way of up to the supreme court and how many terms he was shot dow

and then appealed even ultimately had to handle the over michael, you have been reporting on the logistics o trump's appearance next week including the possibility of a perp walk. let me play for you and ou viewers what his lawyer had to say about that yesterday watch this >> i'm sure they will try to get every ounce of publicity that they can from the saying as far as i'm concerned perp walk, as i, said i am sur they will try to make sure tha they get some, you know, joy out of this by parading him. >> and the truth is we still don't know if that perp walk will actually happen but that kind of procedure w have to note is not out of the ordinary for someone who i accused of a white colla crime. correct? there is some reporting to suggest that trump might actually might want to be perp walk because he relishes the publicity and can use it to hi advantage? >> sure, i mean, he is playing this to his political benefits to the max i, mean we just had a new poll

out today that shows he is jumping way ahead of ron desantis for the republica primary contests at the moment as a result of these charges look, the standard for it, as understand it in new york city criminal courts, when it is white-collar defendant indicte on felony charges. they brought, in their surrender, their briefly put i jail, handcuffed, mud shot taken, fingerprinted and then taken up by elevato to a higher floor where th courtroom is and then walked usually in cuffs to inside the courtroom. that is the perp walk. now, whether that is going t happen with donald trump's situation is far from clear. i mean, for one thing th stated official reason for having a defendant i handcuffs's until a judg weighs in on pretria conditions you know, there is the

possibility of flight. and when the defendant i surrounded by a team of secret service agents, that is no likely to happen so there may be no reason to handcuff him for that perp walk but i think that donald trum will of course relish the idea to walk down that hallway in front of the cameras >> he's never seen a camera he has not loved. >> absolutely. >> and paid attention to jennifer, staying on a topic for a second, the new york times reports that trump watched in horror as his forme chief financial officer alle weisselberg to get branded t authorities in 2021. he trolled aides that he couldn't believe what they are doing to that old man. and we should, note weisselber is only slightly younger tha trump, not much actually we have heard reports that the -- looking forward to that perp walk do you think this is all bravado? do you think deep down insid

this man is scared of what i going to happen to him o tuesday? >> well on this i will defer t maggie haberman who has been covering him for decades now and her view is that on the on hand he is feeling full of aut product -- he is deeply afraid. and who wouldn't be? look, there is the potential that you could go to jail. if this is in fact a felony he could wind up in prison. and remember, this is just the first and what is almost certainly going to be a long list of cases of even more serious felonies with even mor serious sentences going at him so i can't believe he isn't bit outraged and frankly some of that posting on truth social di sound rather desperate and hysterical and did not sound like a man who was altogether confident so as with all things i'm sure he is working on his lizar brain. which tells him both to figh back no matter what. and also that it conveys tha

there is some danger that he i in right now >> let me pick up on that point, asha, that jennifer just brought up it is also something tha maggie haberman in the new yor times has reported that trump has tried to tamp down his own behavior prior to the indictment following a pos on social media site which w also went viral. where he shared a news article with an image of brag on one side, and him holding baseball bat on the other. and it was quite suggestive of what that meant. i think, to any casual observer trump's lawyers were reportedl alarmed that he was doin himself damage and over the last few days h has ramped up those attacks. targeting not only alvin bragg but other prosecutors in the da's office as well as the judge who was selected t oversee this trial he has gone after alvin bragg' wife as well how could trump's online behavior impact what goe inside the courtroom could we see a possible ga order from the judge

>> yeah, you, know if i were his lawyers i would put him, i would put his hands and mitten ended up taped them and thro his phone in the ocean he is not helping his case i do think that there is the possibility of a gag order there is a very high bar for that because of course he ha his first amendment rights but when this rhetoric goe from criticism to actual threats. that is something that the court is going to take seriously. and i think it gets to the tension between trump's need for approval from the public and validation and being in th spotlight. and what is actually good fo his defense. and what is actually going t be tolerated in a court of law and i don't know how he is going to navigate that or i guess i should say i'm no really sure how his lawyers ar going to navigate that because the stakes are much higher a jennifer said in this case then those he has ever faced before >> yeah. >> how do you think the da michael, and the judge in this

case want to navigate this unprecedented moment >> well, it is going to be really interesting to watch. because with the caveat righ now that we don't know what th specific charges are or how alvin bragg is making this case. i do have to say, on its face, it is not a really strong case in fact, there are hug weaknesses just based on the public reporting the theory seems to be tha because business records wer falsified. that was used to conceal a mor serious crime. the falsifications is misdemeanor. the more serious crime would presumably be the campaign finance violation. but i, mean on its face, these business, the trum organization is a privat company. it doesn't report to the scc it is not at all clear tha these business records wer used in any context with the irs, with a bank, with a

insurance company in any way t further some other - susanne i'm sure some more reporting than anyone on this, i'm fascinated to hear what sh has to say but unless you can show that the business records were used in some way to conceal the hus money payment, i am not sure how they got to the felony we are all gonna be waiting to pore over that indictments whe it comes out but just based on what we know now, it is really hard to se how bragg gets there >> susanne, i will give you chance - okay, go ahead, go ahead jennifer hold on, jennifer, go ahea real quick and then susanne will get your reaction to what michael said go ahead, jennifer >> it's just not correct i, mean it doesn't matte whether it is a pumper publi company wary private company there is a whole long list o business records, fraud case that have been brought - >> used to conceal much more serious crimes but what he has to show is tha the falsification was used t

conceal the crime. and there is nothing in th public record that shows that. >> michael, that is just factually incorrect. >> factually it is right go ahead, jennifer >> that is not true. to elevate to a felony it does not make it a more serious crime there is more seriou crime, no serious -- >> felonies more serious than misdemeanor. >> no it doesn't, it doesn't even require another - >> a felony is more serious, i mean, a felony you can go to jail, misdemeanors don't >> i would suggest that yo read [inaudible] >> guys, i appreciate -- hold on, i appreciate th difference of opinion. and i am happy that we have go each of you have got a chanc to weigh in on that. but suzanne, i would like to get your thoughts on tha conversation that was just there between jennifer and michael. i mean, certainly of reporte on this a little bit but give me your thoughts on the merits of the case again, we don't know the specific indictments but as everyone has pointed ou -- >> i wouldn't say it is

strong case or it is a wea case we simply don't know and i can see it coming on tuesday, there is going to b some surprises in there. you know, we don't know that the falsification of the business records has, you know entered its way into tax fraud we will be looking for that an honestly could be serious if i did. i just think we don't know and that is, to say it is weak case or a strong case, think both are sort of jus misplaced right now. and all of this harkens back to, i remember when they brought the charges against the trum organization and everyone said, oh, it is going to be such a hard case because we have to prove tha allen weisselberg did it o behalf of the company. there was this very specific language that had to be proven in court and that is what the jury vote on and they did, even though, you know, in the run-up, on months on, and we were hearing it i going to be such a difficult case and the jurors looked at it an obviously they found that.

in hindsight, nobody is talkin about. that it wasn't a good case and they got a guilty verdict. i think with the wind at their back they are bringing this. case but i think we just don't know and i am going to be the first thing i'm going to be doing is looking for potential ta violations there was a conversation tha is very interesting and michae cohen's book, where he and allen weisselberg, he believes this conversation where alle weisselberg is, there is the falsification of the records and their legal problems the new york times is not only -- a lot of tax information we can see that that, whatever happened, michael cohen didn't get issued a ten 9 miscellaneous. which would be the form that w would be looking for in the ta records. and that is just a simple, her is a legal fee and we ar paying you, michael cohen has w to salaried employee of th trump organization he never got a ten 99. we can't see it in a very clea look but allen weisselberg said well, maybe we should bury i over at, you know, this golf

course or maybe put it ove here or sell a membership to mar-a-lago this is according to michael cohen. but it is somewhere in there and i think alvin bragg's gonn be able to walk us through tha if the indictment comes down w are able to read it. >> i'm so glad you brought tha up go ahead, really quickly >> i was just gonna say, you know, we also need to remember that trump grossed up th repayments to michael cohen so that he could net the proper amount after taxes so there was a whole agreement and conspiracy to kind of evad certain attacks -- tax laws to get to where the wanted to go with th reimbursement. >> and this -- is >> i am glad we got thi conversation so we can - yeah, case, we are gonna continue this on the other sid of the brittani squeeze in a quic break but i'm glad that we had this and the big takeaway is let's wait and see what happen on tuesday or when the indictment is unsealed before than. don't go anywhere we have got

lot more to discuss later this hour with this panel coming up next, i'm gonna be joined by congressman, democratic congressman ted lieu we will discuss weaponizing th government by republicans to target - this isn't charmin! no wonder i don't feel as clean. hurry up dad! you've been in there forever! i'm trying! this cheap stuff is too thin! i told you not to get the other toilet paper. here's charmin ultra strong. ahhh! my bottom's been saved! woooo! with its diamond weave texture, charmin ultra strong cleans better with fewer sheets and less effort. what's everybody waiting for? this? ok hon, we know you're clean. we all go, why not enjoy the go with charmin.

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quote, unlawful politica interference from thos republicans. brags council just sent letter to trump allied members of congress urging them to withdraw their demand fo information on brags the case. and chastising them for thei refusal to denounce the violen and racist attacks on brag da's council also blaste republicans for collaboratin with the ex president. nbc news has learned that trum has been reaching out to his allies on the hill and consulting about the next step in their public defense of him trump has been speaking with senator lindsey graham and congressman matt gates i particular joining me now is democratic congressman ted lieu o california he served as a manager for trump's second impeachment trial. congressman, it is great to se you. thank you for joining. as we really appreciate your time let me start it was somethin that you tweeted or statemen that he released after thi indictment came out. you write that this is a sombe moment for america and noting that, you know, whe you look at the reaction tha we have seen from republicans,

and reflecting on the moment that we are in, i want to just to talk about where we are as country at this moment >> thank you, ayman, for you question it is a solemn time fo america. it sets a terrible precedent t indict a former president of the united states, and the onl precedent worse than that is not to indict a former president if he committed crime. and donald trump like any othe american is entitled to th presumption of innocence in court of criminal law. we have an entire third branch of government dedicated to resolving whether or not someone committed crimes and a judge or jury will asses the evidence and then decide i donald trump is guilty so we should let our judicia system do its job withou political interference that is the american way >> specifically of the reactio from some of the republicans i want to get your reaction to them and how they have bee responding to this moment in particular senator lindsey graham of south carolina let me play for you what he an how he reacted to this news on

fox. watch. >> give the president some money to fight this. this is going to destroy america. we are going to fight back a the ballot box we are not going to give in. how does this and, shawn trump wins in court? and he wins the election that is how this ends. >> all right, so very emotiona lindsey graham, there are some would say somewhat tearful perhaps. but what do you make of that response i mean, first of all he has no seen the charges so i don't know why he think that donald trump is gonna win we doesn't even know why the charges against him are. but what do you make of hi reaction as some of the histor on the republican side >> we are seeing fortunately a number of extreme an hysterical reactions fro republicans. as you said they haven't see any charges, they haven't seen the evidence presented to th grand jury they don't know what other evidence they may have, th manhattan da we should just wait to see wha the charges are, we will see what the evidence is and then people can at least

have more information to go on right now they are just making stuff up they don't even know what this case is about. >> making stuff up in the form of lindsey graham, do you have the more measured response fro someone like former governor asa hutchinson which seemed to strike the appropriate tone for where w are as a country and then you had the respons from somebody like kevin mccarthy, which seemed t suggest that he's gonna use th full weight of the legislative branch of government and certainly the committee or the committees under his control, to go after alvin bragg. and that sends chills i thin for most americans down thei spine. that you would weaponize the legislative branch to go after fda doing its job? >> well thank goodness we have the united states constitution which has the separation o powers and the legislative branch cannot interfere with an ongoing criminal investigation in the judicial branch especially of a local da and again, kevin mccarth doesn't know what the charge are, he hasn't seen th

evidence what do you say, it wa actually quite outrageous? he is essentially saying tha you could not prosecute donald trump just because he is donal trump. there is really no other reaso for his remarks. he hasn't even seen th evidence or the charges. >> and finally there has bee some of this kind of anti-semitic attacks on george soros trying to link him t alvin bragg. but i wanted to get your thoughts on the calls fo protests you have marjorie taylor green saying she's gonna come to new york to protest. and i think a lot of people wh remember what happened o january 6th, and certainly you probably know better than most we have to meet up there on th screen how afraid are you, not of mas protests, but violence the threat of violence the rhetoric that donald trump has been posting on social media with the insinuation o violence >> right, well just in a ver general level, if republican like kevin mccarthy will jus issued one statement that said

the election was not stolen, that would tamp down the political violence that coul happen and with respect to this case, certainly every american has the right to exercise thei first amendment rights but if you are going to assaul someone or engage in propagand like the january 6th mobsters, well yes, you are gonna ge prosecuted >> all, right congressman te lee, always a pleasure thank you so much for coming in appreciate your time >> thank you >> take care >> after the, break what trump can expect in the days and weeks ahead.

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felony arrest processing which includes fingerprinting, but some rituals might actuall deviate from the norm. since the defendant after al is a former president. at the moment there are no plans for trump to have a perp walk in handcuffs. despite some reports that he actually wants that. my panel is back with me t discuss this and more. michael, you have reported o alvin bragg's office debatin whether or not standar procedures in trump and raymon would be endorsed. tell us a little bit about those conversations from you reporting, and the delicat balance both sides are tryin to strike here >> right, the secret service i obviously playing a huge rol here they had to do a site survey o the new york city courthouse and the question is, one big question is public assets to that hallway where he is brought from the elevator into the courtroom. normally that is unrestricte public access, the media has full access there.

is the secret service gonn allow for trump's walk into th courtroom? that is one of the big questions i think we are all waiting to hear. but that leaves aside all th security questions that the ne york city police, the secret service, court officials are dealing with if there are indeed huge protests, we will just have to wait and see >> i want to have th conversation we were hav earlier before the, brea switching gears to that for moment, asha as we understand it, in orde for a prosecutor to charge wit the crime of falsifyin business records as a felony they have to show that it wa done in connection with second crime tell us about the challenge in that and how prosecutors might feel about making that case >> i see this light choose you own adventure. there are two pathways tha

bragg could go down. which are not mutually exclusive. one is that campaign finance violation, that thes repayments were concealing the you know, what were actually hush money payments. and those should have been disclosed all as campaig expenditures as a contribution that runs into various legal contribution issues. under either state law o federal law, depending on whic legal theory that bragg is going down but i think what suzanne was talking about is this othe adventure that bragg could g down, legally speaking which is to argue that the repayment were intended to commit a tax rod violation that by disguising them as income to michael cohen, these would be deductible expenses t the trump organization this is my speculation and therefore what to save the trump organization money and taxes. and that's because the

reported as income to michae cohen, that is why they had to compensate him extra to make u for the taxes that he was goin to be obligated to pay because of how they structured tha repayment. >> suzanne, the judg overseeing two state arrangement as one merchant, who also presided over the trump organization trial which resulted in guilty verdicts fo it's 15 your tax fraud scheme. talk to me about this judge an how you think he will approach this case. >> yeah i sat through, as yo know, a lot of that trial. i -- i think we will see that again here i just found him ver professionally in the court. and, you know, often had what think he could've stepped in t save something when there wa pickering going on between the lawyers, even lawyer syste that - he kept his cool i think you are going to see i close to the, best just like alvin bragg. as i just think they don't wan to put any foot out of place o this and alvin bragg is stretched

now being so careful and i think he is just going t try to be as visible as he can really >> jennifer, he write in the washington post, rather than ponder why alvin bragg prosecuted trump for the sam facts, it is fair to wonder wh the justice department did not prosecute trump immediatel after he left office i think that is such a important question i still wonder why the department of justice has no moved on so many of thes cases. but why do you think they chos not to prosecute >> well when merrick garland came into office, he was faced with a decision that precede him by the trump justice department which is of course not t pursue this against individual one. that was how trump was identified in this scheme. to conceal the busines records. a crime for which michael cohe went to jail we shouldn't lose track of tha either, it is a serious crime. now, at that point garland

could have done one of two things he could have said, you know the prior administration was wrong besides which trump wa still president so the couldn't really have prosecute him. i want to go back, take a look at it. do something different than th prior administration did i think he was very concerne as he was in, for example, the e. jean carroll case about contradicting position in specific cases that the trump white house and the trum justice system had taken and therefore i think he put that to one side and said, well, this is something that i a just not going to pursue i am going to let it go. now in point of fact, as i mentioned, there was n affirmative decision not t prosecute. him he simply was president. and so when he left office h was free game. and i think if you are talking about people - equal justice under the law. this was it. he was individual number one another man went to prison, wa convicted of these charges, an the only reason that trump was not later indicted once he lef

office, because he was individual number one, was because he was the forme president of the united states and perhaps that is a wrong bu just can't be vindicated perhaps new york law is no going to allow alvin bragg t pursue whatever state charge he has but we have already seen a injustice. the injustice is not i prosecuting trump. it is in the notion that the guy who he put up to this went to jail. and he may not >> as i mentioned, it is 5 years of donald trump evadin accountability, so the ide that somebody does not have th right to prosecute a alleged criminal in the case of th manhattan da - there is no such thing for a small crime or a big crime a crime is ultimately by definition a crime michael, nbc has reported that trump has been reaching out to his republican allies on capitol hill in light of this. we have showed our viewers som of the responses, we play th

lindsey graham soundtrack, w should be marjorie taylo greene tweet and yet you have some senior republican lawmakers lik minority leader mitch mcconnel said, it made in already wit john tonight who have remained silent what do you make of thei silence? is silence in this case, i don't know what the right word is i want to say complicity. but his silence accepted so to speak? >> it is probably wise because as everybody has pointed out we haven't seen the charge yet. if as a, speculated there is gonna be that bragg will b able to tie the falsificatio of business records into a tas rhyme then that becomes a much more serious matter. but i think, look, we know tha mcconnell and many republicans senators have had it wit donald trump he wants nothing more to d with him so they are not going to say anything to feed his grievance over this. but i should point out that as

weak as i think this case is it is worth pointing out tha there are far more serious investigations going on fo donald trump, he isn't muc more serious trouble georgia is the first one t look for my understanding is that we ar looking at potential indictments by may or june there. the evidence on that one, whic trump and his allies did s much to pressure georgia election officials to overturn the results of the electio looks to me like a muc stronger case than any other o this stuff and i think that is where th accountability for donald trum is likely to come. not from this new york cit case >> yes only different fronts michael isikoff, suzanne craig jennifer reuben, i greatly appreciate a robust debate o this program i thank you very much for your time asha, please take, radical tal to you a little bit later in the program. next, a member of th exonerated five, use of salaam

has one word for donald trump. karma. he joins me live after the break. after advil. feeling better? on top of the worlddddd!!! before advil. advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. when pain comes for you, come back fast with advil liqui-gels.

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the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. karma, that was new york cit council candidates - yusef salaam onward -- salaam was one of five black - in prison for the rape of a wa to women in new york cit central park back in 1989. the men were commonly referred to as the central park fiv before their convictions wer overturned in 2002 and then they were renamed the end zone rated five, following their arrest in 99, donald trump took out a full page a in for new york newspapers calling for the return of th death penalty in this state. specifically for that case he has never apologized fo those ads. youssouf salaam joins me now yusef, it's great to have yo on the show, thank you for making time with us. beyond karma, what was you

immediate reaction to the news of trump's indictment? >> you, know my immediat reaction was just thinking about dr. king, you know, hi statement about the arc of the moral universe we have been really really wanting justice, and the justice system to work and unfortunately for black an brown people, it is alluding us it has been very challenging just back in 1989, they looked at the color of our skin and judge just by, they said w were guilty because they thought we looked like we were guilty they didn't give us th presumption of innocence they said these guys did thi crime and they stuck with it the worst part about it is tha bias to get it caused the real perpetrator to commit more crimes ultimately killing one of hi victims. >> you were incarcerated for close to seven years, you went to jail for something you di not. do i cannot imagine what i must have felt like for you to see what donald trump wa saying which is at the time, callin for your death publicly.

and for some extent rescuing the public sentiment against you. the public attitude and th public view against you? >> i mean it was horrific. that was the most horrible thing that you can every margin. first of all you are made to believe that you don't matter. you are made to believe that you are born or mistake. and the worst part about i that is that you have to hav tremendous courage to dispel those myths. to say to yourself, you know you were born on purpose you know you have a purpose. and the best thing about it is that i get an opportunity to have all of my lived experienc be the reason why i am showing up here now. why i'm so strong. why i am moving in a ver courageous matter. even the fact that i am runnin for city council all of these things are result of me growing through the criminal justice system in the way that was meaningful fo me now so that i can be th person who is the voice of those individuals. who have been pushed on th

margins of life. >> i want you to respond t something we hear from a lot o republicans and it is the more common refrain which is if the could do this to trump, they could do it to you and i want you to respond to that because it is a sinister statement. but at its core it is also interesting to hear. because that is the point of a justice system that he is a citizen so if you are breaking the law they should be able to do to donald trump and they should be able to d it to you. which is to hold you accountable for breaking the law. >> [inaudible] >> yusef, i think we may hav lost you don't know if you can hear me, can you hear me? it looks like we have lost yusef, we will see if we can u reestablish a connection wit him and trying to continue the conversation on the other side of that break. yusef salaam, one of the central park five, now known a the exonerated five. next, a major setback for fo as the defense itself in the

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when you hear things like that it almost makes you believ that we are living in the same reality. and the truth of the matter is that we are not living in th same reality for someone to say that if the could do to trump like a do it to anyone, they do it to black and brown people all the time. the fact that black and brow people are in prison, have bee there for crimes they haven' committed like myself. it is a tragedy of justice it is a travesty of justice, rather and the truth of the matter is that we need the legal syste to work. and i am excited to see what will happen on tuesday this is a really important tim in our lives that we get the opportunity to witness it. >> if donald trump is watching this what would you say to him >> karma >> all right, yusef salaam think you so much. greatly appreciate your time sir. changing gears now to anothe major legal state case that we are watching late this week, it del rio

judge ruled that dominio voting systems histori defamation - jury trial in mid april. rejecting foxes arguments that it should bypass a trial since the network is protected by th first amendment. now that trial might feature a parade of fox personalitie taking the stand with both sides in the cas planning to call up figure like tucker carlson, sea hannity, red bear. those are just some of the names that both parties propos on witness lists earlier thi week also this week, former fox producer abby grossberg sa down with nbc news after filin a lawsuit against fox alleging that she was coerced int providing misleading testimony as part of the dominio lawsuit. watch. >> i was bullied, intimidated, and coerced into saying that just to keep my job. and stay at the company. and the question a lot o people would have is why would you do that? >> why would you do that >> because i made the decision to keep my job so that i could keep paying my bills

it seemed like the safer decision for me at the time. >> a fox spokesperson told nbc news that the assertion that mrs. grossberg was coached o intimidated into being dishonest during her dominio deposition is false. joining us now is jonathan alter. an msnbc contributor asha it's back with us jonathan, i will start with, you hear, this week former president obama was speaking before a in the audience about how rupert murdoch has field proliferation in the u.s leading americans to no longer having, quote, shared stories. how does that really true to you? talk about the long term damag that fox has done to thi country? >> oh they have done tremendou damage in the nearly 30 year that they have been on the air in terms of pulling us apart in terms of undermining no just a common story but common assumption of what fact is. you know, once you lose

connection to a common set o facts, it is really hard t move forward as a small th democratic society if we depend on reason and reason depends on facts, i you have a news organization that has become a propaganda arm of one of our politica parties. it is a no way committed t reporting the truth first. which is abundantly clear from the evidence that has alread come out in this case. then you have a situation wher democracy is really in trouble because it cannot move forward in a rational way when you hav a news organization of thi influence that is just pumping the system full of fear. >> asha, talk to us about ho somebody like tucker carlson and sean hannity taking th stand could help or hurt fox's case >> oh, it is not going to help foxes case so the ruling by the judge mos

recently came on motions o summary judgment which was filed by bot dominion and fox news to rul in their favor as a matter o law. and the judge ruled in favor o dominion on three major issues on defamation. so they said that the claims that fox was making were false as a matter of law this is really important t have this documented because then it is not going t get litigated whether th election was rigged. that statement was published and they are - to dominion. the only issue that needs to g to a jury now is whether fox acted with actual malice and so with hannity and tucker going on the stand and we have seen what is in thei depositions, i, mean they ar saying behind the scenes tha they know that this is bs. they know that it is false that is the standard they know it is false. and are they acting with reckless disregard for the truth? a court ruled against some o their own defenses, like their

claims that this was jus opinion or that this was jus unusual reporting. so they are not in goo position given what we know is going on behind the >> scene at fox news. talk to us about this former fox producer, and her lawsui against fox alleging that sh was coerced into providing misleading testimony how will that play into tria if at all? >> if she testifies on behal of dominion, which it sounds like she is willing to do, thi gets to that actual malice tha i mentioned before again she can testify, just in that clip you showed that sh seemed credible and remorseful if she might be able to sway a jury on top of all of the othe evidence that this was happening very intentionally behind the scenes in an effort to present viewers with what they wanted to hear, not wit what was actually vetted through journalistic practices >> jonathan, talk to me abou

the potential moral feelings here, beyond the legal issues, alleging that fox pressured he into providing misleadin testimony. just the overall world feeling that we are seeing here. >> i think one thing that came out this week that was ver important is that fox has unit called the brain room and this unit is charged wit fact checking what goes on the air. so there were some people at fox who thought it was important that they didn't jus put bs out there and a bunch o lies especially on something as important as who won the presidential election. ten days after the election, the brain room sent it findings to fox management saying that this was all bs. and they should not put any of it on the air because it was untrue so to go tear question, mora feeling here is a news organization which for money to keep it -