the potential moral feelings here, beyond the legal issues, alleging that fox pressured he into providing misleadin testimony. just the overall world feeling that we are seeing here. >> i think one thing that came out this week that was ver important is that fox has unit called the brain room and this unit is charged wit fact checking what goes on the air. so there were some people at fox who thought it was important that they didn't jus put bs out there and a bunch o lies especially on something as important as who won the presidential election. ten days after the election, the brain room sent it findings to fox management saying that this was all bs. and they should not put any of it on the air because it was untrue so to go tear question, mora feeling here is a news organization which for money to keep it -

which tucker carlson makes ver clear, here is the motive. they're losing viewers, th maga viewers, because they are not lying to them. so to keep their stock price u they go forward with allies. what could be a bigger moral failure than that? >> yeah. a news organization is not a word, or two words that i woul use to describe fox at thi moment in time i greatly appreciate your time and insights this evening. the second hour of ayman start any moment we will look at how the trum indictmentou cld shake up th 2024 presidential race, don' go anywhere. small business. (vo) verizon has business internet solutions nationwide. (man) for our not-so-small business too. (vo) get internet that keeps your business ready for anything. from verizon. i'm your overly competitive brother. check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you

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of ayman, trump's indictment has forced a 2024 primar arrivals to do the one thing that could hurt the most defend donald trump. plus, the other trump relate legal cases with major developments this week including a ruling that forc as mike pence to testify in th special counsel's election interference probe and classroom safety in th wake of another school shooting, why the gop is so obsessed wit banning books, but not guns. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's ge started. so in less than 72 hours

donald trump is expected t turn himself in and appear i court on tuesday 2:15 pm. here is what we know about wha comes next nbc news is reporting tonight that trump faces about 30 charges related to document fraud connected to hush money he allegedly paid t cover a past affair with adult from stars they are part of new organizations that are askin the judge to unseal the trum indictment immediately they're also asking for audi and visual access to nex week's arraignment this is the first time in ou nation's history that a former or current president has faced criminal charges, but it i important to note that we have seen what we have seen unfol this week is only the beginnin of a long string of lega battles that trump faces at th state and federal levels in fact, trump will return t new york a week after hi arraignment for a deposition i a civil lawsuit that he is facing, that is spearheaded by state attorney general, letiti james. then there is georgia's case

where there is a fulton county district attorney looking into his efforts to overturn th 2020 presidential election at the federal level, trump is facing two investigations unde special counsel, jack smith, for his efforts to overturn th 2020 election. and his alleged mishandling of classified documents according to the new york times, trump's lawyers has privatel said that this first indictmen in new york will serve as test case of public opinion as criminal charges become reality. even though this is the firs case to see an indictment, there is no guarantee that thi would be the first case to g to trial depending on how other cases shape out. legal experts say that federal indictments can move muc faster in regardless of the timeline, it will be months, if no longer before any of these cases actually conclude. so buckle up breezier selves and grab som popcorn. joining me now are carol lynn, msnbc legal analyst and federa prosecutor david rohde, executive directo of the new yorker.com an

effort in india, the fbi and the truth about america's deep d former congresswoman donna edwards, also an msnbc political analyst. it is great to have you with us i want to start with something a good friend of the show, we're not moriarty, somethin wrote. it was in a peace an political. and it he says even if trump ultimately beats the charges i manhattan, the simple fact tha he's facing these charges will make it more difficult t defend himself in othe criminal cases give me your thoughts on that. do you see it as a possibility do you see it that same way or assess it differently? >> i feel the same way here is one reason why it hasn't been greatly discussed that he is facing state criminal charge here, an there is another pending investigation in georgia, an there is a federal crime sometimes it does not make tha much difference whether someon being prosecuted by the stat or being prosecuted by the federal government, but in thi

case there is a big difference and let me explain why the big difference here is because of the political atmosphere, where donald trump and his allies claim that this is all a political ruse, and that it is all politics to kee him from being elected t president of the united states now, the state prosecutors state district attorneys lik alvin bragg and fani willis, they do not report to th attorney general of the united states who reports to th president. they report to their constituents they are voted into office, in their counties so the fact that jack smith, the special counsel for th investigation does, even thoug he is a special counse ultimately, that decision stil lies with merrick garland wh reports directly to joe biden, the president of the unite states in this context it is very important that ther are two state investigations o prosecutions taken place, an

not just federal investigations. >> they've been, the manhattan district attorney's office reportedly asked for trump t surrender on friday. but trump's team said they needed more time to prepare. do you think that even if delay has some legitimacy that trump will also use these next few days too insight more chao and confusion, perhaps continu his vicious attacks on the manhattan da, the judge, and anyone else that is in pursuit of accountability? >> yeah. i think he will. i think there is a legal battl that will play out in manhattan courtroom. then there is a public battle. trump is going to relentlessly try to discredit this trial. discredit alvin bragg, as he has already been doing discredit the judge in the case and eventually, if he is convicted, discredit the jurors. that is what he has done tha got him into the oval office and i think that he will use the same tactics

the difference here is tha judges, when you are on trial, you are expected to agreed t certain terms. one of the terms is that he no be seen as threatening, or trying to intimidate jurors. if he does that, it will be up to the judge and the case, judge ron, to possibly - this happened, to have a partial gag order put on trump this happened when he posted a picture on social media, and there was a target beside he face so that is a dynamic that th judge will be watching ver carefully. >> donna, some conservativ pundit on lawmakers have strongly expressed their support for trump, they ar crying that brags investigatio is quote, a witch hunt and politically motivated and of course, let's not forget tha we still do not know what th exact charges are. what do you make of thes elected politicians and thei blind loyalty to trump what is this that he represent for them that they are simpl unable to just be objectivel critical of this moment? >> well, you have asked

question that almost none of u can answer because to no explain, they've had so many opportunities to send donald trump packing. they've refused to do it here we are again, in circumstance where he is facin the state indictment from th -- alvin bragg, and they stil will not get rid of him so the are really tied together, and think that it is so interestin to me because they have no taken an opportunity to step back from donald trump and now in addition to the base, all o the republican apparatus i tied to donald trump i do not see that ending anytime soon >> carol, the judge overseeing this case is the same judge wh presided over the trum organization trial, whic resulted in guilty verdicts fo

its 15 year tax fraud scheme given his prior knowledge of trump and his organization, an his finances, how do you see him overseeing this case is that a factor >> it is a bit of a factor because the judge has a lo more context now, to everythin that was going on in the trump organization judges, ironically, are ofte the people in the courtroom to know the least about a case. the prosecutors know a lot about the case, but certainly, their clients know a lot about the cases. judges, usually coming to case pretty new to the fact, but this judge has sat through months of pretrial motions and weeks of a trial so i think that it will enable him, if in fact he keeps the case for trial, it will enable him to run a more informed and probably more efficient trial, because he can see around th corners and he has more contex for the decisions that he make

during the trial >> all right david you talked about your concerns about the judge making this fair trial, and the importance of jurors in this case to no feel intimidated especially when you have peopl like kevin mccarthy and others going after the da why not more people in the media going after the jurors were going after the judge what precautions would you lik this you taken from -- taken for the safety of thes individuals, given how high-profile it is and how w have seen calls by peopl across for protest, as i mentioned people on the righ both in the conservative media circles as well as republica politicians? >> we all, as americans, have right to a jury by our peers donald trump has a right t that but those jurors have a righ to remain anonymous. one of the things that the former prosecutors who prosecuted roger stone told me was that they worry abou jurors being very worried abou their names leaking, their identities leaking there will be hordes o

reporters around the courthouse they will be exiting the courthouse entering the courthouse. so it is critical that the jurors be kept private, that they be protected at all times because they are doing their job as citizens. then, look, if they acquit donald trump, or whether the convict him, you know they are doing their civic duty and the should not be blamed for the decision that they make. this is our system this is the rule of law. so, it is going to be a huge commitment by those people i salute whoever does it, bu their identity should be protected throughout thi process. >> carol, david, donna, please stick around we are just getting started on this saturday evening. next, trump's the gop rivals rushed to his defense despit his utter lack of knowledg about his indictment but first, richard louis i here with the highlights >> a very good evening to you. some of the stories we are watching this evening, searc and rescue efforts at th moment are underway in the

south and midwest after anothe round of powerful storms and tornadoes ripped through the region friday night. the death toll is now at least 22, with tennessee and arkansa accounting for most of those the national weather service i arkansas confirming th tornadoes caused high and ef damage with winds up to hundre and 65 miles an hour, runnin an estimated path length of 20 to 25 miles. in illinois, the severe weathe they're causing the roof of th apollo theater to collapse string a heavy metal concert friday at least one person was killed and over 40 were injured then, those severe weather systems, they are moving to th northeast. parts of central new york an eastern pennsylvania, they are now under severe thunderstor watch until at least saturda night. we will stay on top of those weather developments right here more ayman right after thi break. “i swear”) plays ♪ jaycee tried gain flings for the first time the other day... and forgot where she was. [buzz]

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whether donald trump still has

an iron-like grip on the republican party, just look at how his 2024 gop primary rival have responded to hi indictment within hours, the two declared candidates wasted no time. nikki haley calling it revenge and vivek coming through wit this classic if they can do it to trump they can do it to you. which is exactly how a fai justice system works, if you break the law, yes they will come after you regardless if you are a former president o not. then there is trump' perspective rivals, like ron desantis and pence in sout carolina, the senator, tim scott who also rushed to trump's defense. desantis took it even further, vowing that florida would quote, not assist in an extradition request. all of this defense create quite the conundrum for thes republicans, as axios frames it, heavy potential 2024 candidate is being forced to defend trump, at precisely the time that their otherwise might be

attacking him or trying to differentiate themselves fro him. let's bring back my panel fo this conversation. david, i want to start with you, specifically jeb bush here he is surprisingly, perhap even disappointingly running t trump's defense saying quote let the jury be the voters you cannot make this stuff up, you think that people wh competed in 2016 and the peopl he hates now like ron desantis would not, wouldn't they welcome this news that the justice system is working an yet here they are still goin to back for him? what do you think is driving the strategy >> i think it is donald trump' control over most of the republican party electorate. that he is, you know, this messaging that he is a victi that there is a deep state plo against him, you know, i believed by most republicans and i think that jeb bush is afraid of countering that an it is a remarkable situation and frankly a disappointing on this is a critical moment fo

all americans to kind of trust in our judicial system and trust in this trial. and it is disappointing to see this kind of immediate reaction it is mostly, again, about losing this course support coming from trump's base i think every electe republican is afraid o crossing trump or trum crossing those supporters of his. >> he tried to flex a little bit by upping the ante and vowing not to extradite trum even though his own lawyer sai he would willingly surrender i new york next week wouldn't there be any lega issues for desantis if trump didn't solve surrender what would happen in a situation like this where he i in florida, refuses to surrender, and the governor of that state, the executive of that state says he will no extradite him? >> it was sort of a bizarr statement and the the issu does not exist, as you pointed out, because trump by al reports is going to get on his

own plane and come on up to ne york and do a self surrender and be arraigned on the charges. what ron desantis is talking about is if somebody i unwilling to solve surrender and wants to force the state government to go through a extradition process, which states do have to do because they have jurisdiction only on their own space, than if the have to make a formal reques for a statutory agreement amon all the states to have the court in the state of florid find the defendant and make th correct findings that a reques has been made by another state then, order that individual be transported up to the stat that is bringing the charges so it would have been really a matter, it would have happened hopefully, it doesn't have t happen but the governor does no really have any power to kee that from happening if trump were to decide not to willingl

come and call himself out. i don't think he wants to be o a slow bus up from florida t new york in custody. >> i have done that drive from florida to new york. i can tell you it is long an painful. congresswoman, is it just th 2024 republicans doing this, w often hear about rupert murdoch, you know, he dislikes trump an that foxes out to get, him o turning on him - watch how they reacted to this indictment >> the state will go down as a dark day for america >> we are in a police state, i'm not even arguing this. >> it is too great an assaul on our system, much greate than anything we've seen o january 6th. >> if there is a mugshot o donald trump, it will be i dorm rooms and on t-shirts >> he is a bad us if he has go a mugshot. >> he recently called murdaugh a rhino. is this just about ratings

why can't they quit their maga daddy, as they put it. why can't they let go of donal trump? >> i think obviously, it i tied to their ratings. they want to hold on to that maga base. the maga base wants to continu to hold on to donald trump and donald trump is playin this for all it is worth even though i think that h doesn't want to be an indicted former president, he is usin both fox news, and elected republicans, and his fundraising apparatus to pla this for all it is worth and i don't know what is in it for fox, but all of those host who have created a bit o distance from donald trump are all right back in the donald trump camp once again, proving that the republican part simply cannot separate fro donald trump >> all right panel, please

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oh! can we do the wayfair song? yes you can. wayfair! ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ wow. >> donald trump's indictment it'd be better if you did it. has overshadowed some majo developments and other investigations this week a federal judge ordered mike pence to comply with a subpoen and special counsel jack smith's probe into trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election pence says he is unsure whethe he will appeal the order it will likely be asked to comment about the conversation he had with trump in the run u to january 6th insurrection. but he told reporters this wee that he has quote, nothing t hide trump's lawyers separately filed an objection to th subpoenas on executive privilege grounds. but the judge rejected tha appeal let's bring back our panel

carol, this was a busy week. any other week where a forme president wasn't indicted, thi ruling in favor of jack smith, or for jack smith' investigation, that would have been the headline. it would have been what we wer talking about through th entire hour. but we are talking about this bit less because of what has happened to the former president. how significant of a ruling wa this that mike pence has t comply or a testify in jac smith's investigation? >> that part of the ruling i very significant it means he does have to giv testimony about the things tha jack smith is really intereste in i think to the extent that h and trump's allies are claimin victory -- it is limited to the fact that because the vice president actually serves as the president of the senate, he ha some legislative role. that means that he has som immunity under the speech or debate clause of the

constitution, which protects people in congress for the actions and words that they ma say or do in the course of their legislative duties but that sounds like the chief justice took a very surgical approach here and he said, wit respect to his actions, as president of the senate, he ha some immunity there. but he does not have executive privilege over crimes that the president may have engaged in. and he has to testify abou aspects of his role as vic president, not president of th senate so that, the claim victory, think is a bit broad here. it is a very surgical approach that the chief judge tuck. >> congresswoman - about the january 6t

insurrection, or whateve happened on that day but that hasn't stopped hi from fighting subpoenas that return that didn't comply with the congressional inquiry to what happened on january 6th if you truly had nothing t hide, wouldn't he welcome th chance to set the record straight beyond just trying to sell books >> you would think but the vice president says on thing but he has been very aggressively trying to keep hi role and his voice actuall silent in all of these investigations it does feel, now, that with the special counsel probe that the vice president is going to have to sit down and answe questions under oath about his conversations into the days an weeks leading up to january 6th. and so, i think that is a good thing for the american people. we need those things t continue what is interesting to me, i that in taking the stand tha he has thus far, the vic

president continues to reall protect. i don't really understand it but to protect donald trump an so i guess we will learn mor about that in the coming day and weeks. >> david, wouldn't mike pence' testimony in this case, presume her to donald trump? if so, wouldn't pence want t damage his possible 2024 primary rival? ink about if the shoe is o the other foot and donald trum had the chance to testif against his political opponent what do you think donald trump would be doing >> you are right he would be testifying but again, it is back to thi view if you look at the recent poll about 70% of republicans sai that they felt the indictmen in new york was politicall motivated, and essentially unfair when they were asked whether trump should be disqualified from running for president because of the indictment over

90% of republicans said no the majority of american disagreed on both of those points so it is pence trying to hav his cake and eat it too. the important thing here i that this helps special counse jack smith what pence has been ordered to testify about his potentia illegal acts by donald trump you know, did trump pressure him with corrupt intent? that is the key legal phrase president chooses the next president, not the voters. the trump no, or should he hav known that that was fraudulent that it was not in pence's power? this is a big step forward because getting inside donal trump's head, what did he sa to mike pence, what did he say about his closest aides is a huge part of any possibl prosecution for january 6th fo jack smith >> talk to us about where this goes next, carroll, jack smith is doing two investigation simultaneously this obviously compels mik

pence to testify we are still waiting to see if mike pence appeals thi decision but how does what happen next impact the investigation and how do you assess where jack smith is taking this investigation base on him seeking this testimon from mike pence? >> well, with the return of th indictment by the stat prosecutor in manhattan, i think that that does break the ice a little bit it gets the american public, i gets their head around the concept that not only a former president, but someone who has declared he is going to run fo the presidency again is no under criminal indictment. in that sense, in a sort o atmospheric sense, it take pressure off of jack smith he is running tw investigations that are very different in nature. one has to do with the oddit of keeping classified material in mar-a-lago and the other of

course is the much large investigation into january 6th and what he has done has bee to work his way up the totem pole here of witnesses and now he sits with the vice presiden getting testimony about what was going on in very, very confidential situations within the white house walls. i think at that point, once he has all of that evidence, he has to sit down and merric garland has to sit down an they have got to make really really tough decisions her about whether either of thos cases are going to be brought, and there are reasons to bring either one of them, or not bring either one of them that is going to be a really tough call for both jack smith and merrick garland. >> all right, former congresswoman donna edwards, thank you all so much.

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to hard-working muscles and joints, for all-day energy. >> at the beginning of thi week, six people including 3 year olds were murdered in a school shooting in nashville tennessee. the first funeral service wa held yesterday and as hundreds of mourners gathered to show support and breathe, a ver different impulse was on display in washington this week. >> three precious little kid left their lives, and thre adults [inaudible] it is a horrible horrible situation if we are not going to fix it, criminals are going to b criminals. >> do you think there is any role for congress to play in reaction to this >> i don't see any real role that we do other than mess things up. >> of course we are not going to fix it

republican congressman, ti brigitte of tennessee admitted in a different time electe officials might have at leas promised some action in th aftermath of children an educators being murdered at the very least, manchin thoughts and prayers but apparently that is not the case anymore in this country apparently some republican have rationalized that may b even accepted that our babie will be slaughtered in classrooms, and there is simpl nothing we can do about it there is nothing republicans can do about murder in schools but it seems that there is endless opportunities fo action when it comes to bannin books and different courses in those schools. for that, republicans will wor nonstop. from the inception of the snow years long circus of censorshi decides as - it has been a studen discomfort that serves as rallying cry for these conservatives. it was student discomfort that

led to purge after part of local libraries and school classrooms it was student discomfort that necessitated textbooks b stripped of black history. it was a student discomfor that is now prompted florida governor, ron desantis, to expand his don't take a lo through the 12th grade effectively eradicatin discussions of queer people an gender topics from florida public schools that discomfort, tha discomfort required action and that discomfort required bill after bill after bill t be introduced by the florida legislator but student discomfort means nothing to republicans when it comes to weapons of war, and the weekly shootings that we endured in this country. tell us studies have shown tha armed guards, and active shooter drills correlate wit massive spikes in anxiety, and depression among students an teachers those appeared to mean nothing to republicans this nation subjects its children to acting out schoo

shootings in an effort t protect and prepare them because republicans seem t have accepted that childre might be gunned down as they learn in classrooms. earlier this week, the president of the america federation of teachers sai this at a rally in washingto d.c. >> these attacks are not about protecting kids. if they were, these same governors would be working wit us to address learning loss an the youth mental health crisis they would be working with u to take on social medi companies for contributing t that crisis. if these attacks were abou protecting kids, they would be working with us to fight against the leading cause of death of american children, gu violence >> it is not about protectin kids it is about protecting guns. banning books and bannin conversations and schools will not protect children but banning guns would protect them

so when we hear such defeatism from a republican member o congress, we must remember tha they don't have to be defeated they choose to be defeated republicans have by and larg chosen to not protect ou children they've chosen, instead, t launch fake culture wars and they are doing that in part to take the focus off of thei lack of action on real issues. as democratic congressma jarrett moscow had said this week, you guys are worried about banning books, that kids can't read we will be right back with randi weingarten g beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works.

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ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ (group) i did it my way! ♪ >> let's continue now with our conversation on the gop book bans, and school shootings wit the president of the america federation of teachers, andy wajngarten it is great to see you again thank you for coming back on the show that clip we just played was from the speech that she gav at the national press club earlier this week. it is safe to say that you hav effectively become the white house's point person in pushin back on gop book bans. tell us a little bit about you plan and when do you think president biden himself will start weighing in more forcefully on this issue >> well, you know, let me just say i think that secretary cardona has weighed in and the president has weighed in and others have. i think that more important, w should focus less on political

and more on educational. i think what you just said before is completely right which is the hypocrisy you lai bare the hypocrisy of it other countries, western democracies have figured out how to stop mass shootings o people australia, scotland, new zealand, in the united states, they have done common sens anti gun that can violence measures they figured it out and we have to ban weapons of mas destruction. that is not banning hunting, that is not bending -- and when we did in this country, we saw a huge decrease i shootings. so if we actually care about kids, the highest cause of death, the reason that mos

kids died's gun violence not book banning discomfort is not death. ultimately, i don't understand why they are fearful o children learning, but not fearful of children dying. >> yeah, that was a question i was going to pose to you i don't know if you have a answer to it, but why do you think it is? we have discussed so much th rationale behind the republicans banning of books because as they see it, it makes the students fee uncomfortable. and yet republicans do not see to care that active shoote drills, or armed guards, o metal doors, or security cameras have - which have been shown to b extremely traumatizing for kid and teens, that is not a cause of concern that discomfort is not a cause of concern >> look, i can't tell you, i a

not a psychologist i am a schoolteacher, and i am a lawyer so, i cannot tell you what the psychological -- what is going on psychologically in the republican's minds right now this is not ronald reagan' republican party i had a lot of problems with ronald reagan, but his republican party was about fre enterprise he would never banned books. that would be about freedom, and liberty. but what i do know is hypocris when i see it. i do know danger when i see it what they are afraid of is the are afraid of their kids learning and their kids minds being opened up. and frankly, this is not where most americans are the latest polling we did, galloped it, it is like an 8 20 split in terms of where

americans are. but i think what we need to do is we need to actually dea with the anxiety that is why the other part o my speech this week was abou how do we overcome earning loss, and how do we overcome the sadness and the depression tha kids have, so i suggested, i proposed how we get to scale with the things that would affect that. like enlarging community schools, doing experimenta learning really deepening the connectio between parents and teachers and dealing with the teacher shortage but the one left, i would sa is this. they are trying to create this distrust they are trying to creat anxiety. and a great country is about creating both unity an honoring all of the people tha are within that country. and that is our job as educators, and that is what will continue to do. >> we have about a minute left

i wanted to ask you abou parental rights and this conversation, because when i comes to their children' conversations, it has become a huge flash point in this country. people feel very strongly abou it how do you convince parent that their kids are in goo hands without alienating anyone? >> well, we need parents t have rights in this country, just like we need teachers t have rights in this country. frankly, most parents trus their teachers, love their kid teachers they do not want their kids to be teachers, but because o what we go through, but they love their kids teachers most parents do not want one o two parents to deprive their kids of the right to learn but we have to make sure tha all parents feel comfortable so we need to deepen the relationship between parents and educators, and not b afraid of it >> i was totally agreeing with

you there, i apologize, didn't mean to cut you off i was totally agreeing with you. >> no problem. i mean, we can do it the last thing i will say is that during the height of covid, i used to have zooms wit parents who completely disagreed with me. and you know, there were frictions sometimes. but you have to gain trust, an that is what we need to do we need to talk to people wh disagree with us >> absolutely. all right, it is always a part of leisure, thank you fo joining us we greatly appreciate your tim and insight, as always keep up the good work to you and you organization thank you for making time fo us, come back tomorrow night a nine eastern on msnbc. i will be joined by lanny davis, michael cohen's lawyer, for hi reaction to the indictment and his promise that he will be key witness in trump's trial former federal prosecutor, andrew weissmann will also joi that conversation, until then am ayman, have a good night. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need.

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politicsnation tonight's lead justice, fo all. in just three days, donald trump is expected to b arraigned in a manhattan criminal court th