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for today. i am symone sanders-townsend in for alicia bennett. as you can see me every weekend on my show simone, saturdays and sundays at 4 p eastern, right here on msnbc and tomorrow you can catch a lethal, she coughing, jonathan -- reverend sharpton and myself. our special coverage o the indictment of donald trump it continues at 6 pm eastern >> coming up on the second hou of eamonn. trump's indictment has force his rivals to do the one thing that hurts the most, defen donald trump, plus the other trump related legal cases with major developments as, wee including a ruling that forces

mike pence to testify in the second councils election interference probe and classroom safety in th wake of another school shooting, why the gop is so obsessed wit banning books, but not guns. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's ge started. so in less than 7 hours, donald trump is expecte to turn himself in and appea in court on tuesday. 2:15 pm here is what we know about wha comes next nbc news is reporting tonight that trump faces about 30 charges related to document fraud connected to hush money he allegedly paid t cover a past affair with adult from stars. they are part of news organizations that ar asking the judge to unseal the trump indictment immediately they're also asking for audi and visual access to nex week's arraignment. this is th first time in our nation's history that a former or current president has face criminal charges, but it i important to note that we have

seen what we have seen unfol this week is only the beginnin of a long string of lega battles that trump faces at th state and federal levels. in fact, trump will return to new york a week after hi arraignment for a deposition i a civil lawsuit that he is facing, that is spearheaded by state attorney general, letiti james. then there is georgia's case, where there is a fulto county district attorney looking into his efforts t overturn the 2020 presidential election. at the federal level trump is facing tw investigations under special counsel, jack smith, for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. and his allege mishandling of classifie documents. according to the ne york times, trump's lawyers ha privately said that this first indictment in new york wil serve as a test case of public opinion as criminal charge become a reality. even thoug this is the first case to se an indictment, there is no guarantee that this would be the first case to go to trial. depending on how other cases shape out. legal experts say that federal indictments can move much faster. in regardles of the timeline, it will b

months, if not longer before any of these cases actuall conclude. so buckle up breezier selves and grab som popcorn. joining me now ar carol lynn, msnbc legal analys and federal prosecutor. davi rohde, executive director of the new yorker. com and effort in india, the fbi and the trut about america's deep state. an former congresswoman donna edwards, also an msnbc political analyst. it is great to have you with us. i want to start with something a goo friend of the show, we're no moriarty, something wrote. i was in a peace and political and it he says even if trump ultimately beats the charges i manhattan, the simple fact tha he's facing these charges will make it more difficult t defend himself in othe criminal cases. give me your thoughts on that. do you see i as a possibility, do you see i that same way or assess it differently? >> i feel the same way. here i one reason why. it hasn't been greatly discussed that he is

facing a state criminal charge here, and there is another pending investigation in georgia, and there is a federa crime. sometimes it does not make that much differenc whether someone bein prosecuted by the state or being prosecuted by the federa government, but in this case there is a big difference an let me explain why. the bi difference here is because o the political atmosphere, wher donald trump and his allie claim that this is all a political ruse, and that it is all politics to keep him fro being elected to president o the united states. now, th state prosecutors, state district attorneys like alvi bragg and fani willis, they do not report to the attorney general of the united states who reports to the president they report to their constituents. they are voted into office, in their counties so the fact that jack smith, the special counsel for th investigation does, even thoug he is a special counse ultimately, that decision stil lies with merrick garland wh reports directly to joe biden, the president of the unite states in this context. it i

very important that there ar two state investigations o prosecutions taken place, an not just federal investigations >> they've been, the manhattan district attorney's office reportedly asked for trump t surrender on friday. but trump's team said they neede more time to prepare. do you think that even if a delay has some legitimacy that trump wil also use these next few days too insight more chaos and confusion, perhaps continue hi vicious attacks on the manhattan da, the judge, and anyone else that is in pursuit of accountability? >> yeah. i think he will. think there is a legal battl that will play out in manhattan courtroom. then ther is a public battle. trump is

going to relentlessly try to discredit this trial. discredi alvin bragg, as he has already been doing. discredit the judg in the case. and eventually, i he is convicted, discredit the jurors. that is what he ha done that got him into the ova office, and i think that h will use the same tactics. the difference here is that judges when you are on trial, you are expected to agreed to certai terms. one of the terms is tha he not be seen as threatening, or trying to intimidate jurors if he does that, it will be up to the judge and the case, judge ron, to possibly -- this happened, to have a partial ga order put on trump. this happened when he posted picture on social media, and there was a target beside he face. so that is a dynamic tha the judge will be watching ver carefully. >> donna, some conservativ pundit on lawmakers have strongly expressed their support for trump, they ar crying that brags investigatio

is quote, a witch hunt and politically motivated and of course, let's not forget tha we still do not know what th exact charges are. what do you make of these electe politicians and their blin loyalty to trump? what is this that he represents for the that they are simply unable to just be objectively critical o this moment? >> well, you have asked question that almost none of u can answer because to no explain, they've had so many opportunities to send donald trump packing. they've refused to do it. here we are again, i a circumstance where he is facing the state indictmen from the -- alvin bragg, and they still will not get rid of him so they are really tie together, and i think that i is so interesting to me becaus they have not taken an opportunity to step back fro donald trump and now, in addition to the base, all of the republican apparatus i tied to donald trump. i do not see that ending anytime soon

>> carol, the judge overseeing this case is the same judge wh presided over the trum organization trial, whic resulted in guilty verdicts fo its 15 year tax fraud scheme given his prior knowledge of trump and his organization, an his finances, how do you see him overseeing this case? is that a factor? >> it is a bit of a factor because the judge has a lo more context now, to everythin that was going on in the trump organization. judges ironically, are often th people in the courtroom to kno the least about a case. th prosecutors know a lot about the case, but certainly, their clients know a lot about the cases. judges, usually comin to a case pretty new to th fact, but this judge has sat through months of pretrial motions and weeks of a trial

so i think that it will enable him, if in fact he keeps the case for trial, it will enable him to run a more informed and probably more efficient trial, because he can see around th corners and he has more contex for the decisions that he make during the trial >> all right david. you talked about your concerns about th judge making this a fair trial and the importance of jurors i this case to not fee intimidated. especially when you have people like kevin mccarthy and others going afte the da. why not more people in the media going after th jurors, were going after the judge? what precautions woul you like this you taken from - taken for the safety of thes individuals, given how high-profile it is and how w have seen calls by peopl across for protest, as i mentioned people on the righ both in the conservative media circles as well as republica politicians? >> we all, as americans, have

right to a jury by our peers donald trump has a right t that. but those jurors have right to remain anonymous. one of the things that the forme prosecutors who prosecuted roger stone told me was that they worry about jurors bein very worried about their names leaking, their identitie leaking. there will be horde of reporters around th courthouse. they will be exiting the courthouse entering the courthouse. so it is critical that the jurors be kept private, that they be protected at all times, becaus they are doing their job a citizens. then, look, if the acquit donald trump, or whethe they convict him, you know the are doing their civic duty and they should not be blamed fo the decision that they make. this is our system. this is th rule of law. so, it is going t be a huge commitment by thos people. i salute whoever doe it, but their identity shoul be protected throughout this process. >> carol, david, donna, please stick around. we are jus

getting started on thi saturday evening. next, trump' the gop rivals rushed to his defense despite his utter lack of knowledge about his indictment. but first, richard louis is here with the highlights >> a very good evening to you. some of the stories we are watching this evening, searc and rescue efforts at th moment are underway in the south and midwest after anothe round of powerful storms and tornadoes ripped through the region friday night. the death toll is now at least 22, wit tennessee and arkansas accounting for most of those the national weather service i arkansas confirming th tornadoes caused high and ef damage with winds up to hundre and 65 miles an hour, runnin an estimated path length of 20 to 25 miles. in illinois, th severe weather they're causing the roof of the apollo theater to collapse string a heavy metal concert friday. at least one person was killed and over 40 were injured. then, those severe weather systems, they are moving to the northeast. parts of central new york an eastern pennsylvania, they are

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>> in case you are wondering whether donald trump still has an iron-like grip on the republican party, just look at how his 2024 gop primary rival have responded to hi indictment. within hours, th two declared candidates wasted no time. nikki haley calling i revenge and vivek coming through with this classic. i they can do it to trump, the can do it to you. which is exactly how a fair justice system works, if you break the law, yes they will come afte you regardless if you are former president or not. the there is trump's perspective rivals, like ron desantis an pence in south carolina, the senator, tim scott who als rushed to trump's defense.

desantis took it even further, vowing that florida would quote, not assist in an extradition request. all of this defense creates quite the conundrum fo these republicans, as axio frames it, heavy potential 202 candidate is being forced to defend trump, at precisely the time that their otherwise migh be attacking him or trying t differentiate themselves fro him. let's bring back my panel for this conversation. david, want to start with you specifically jeb bush here. he is surprisingly, perhaps eve disappointingly running to trump's defense saying quote let the jury be the voters. yo cannot make this stuff up, you think that people who competed in 2016 and the people he hate now like ron desantis would not, wouldn't they welcome this new that the justice system is working and yet here they ar still going to back for him? what do you think is driving the strategy >> i think it is donald trump' control over most of the republican party electorate. that he is, you know, this

messaging that he is a victi that there is a deep state plo against him, you know, i believed by most republicans and i think that jeb bush is afraid of countering that an it is a remarkable situation and frankly a disappointing on this is a critical moment fo all americans to kind of trust in our judicial system and trust in this trial. and it is disappointing to see this kind of immediate reaction. it is mostly, again, about losin this course support coming fro trump's base. i think ever elected republican is afraid o crossing trump or trum crossing those supporters of his. >> he tried to flex a little bit by upping the ante and vowing not to extradite trum even though his own lawyer sai he would willingly surrender i new york next week. wouldn't there be any legal issues fo desantis if trump didn't solve surrender? what would happen i

a situation like this where he is in florida, refuses t surrender, and the governor of that state, the executive of that state says he will no extradite him? >> it was sort of a bizarr statement and the the issu does not exist, as you pointed out, because trump by al reports is going to get on his own plane and come on up to ne york and do a self surrender and be arraigned on th charges. what ron desantis i talking about is if somebody i unwilling to solve surrender and wants to force the state government to go through a extradition process, which states do have to do because they have jurisdiction only on their own space, than if the have to make a formal reques for a statutory agreement amon all the states to have the court in the state of florid find the defendant and make th correct findings that a reques has been made by another state then, order that individual be transported up to the stat that is bringing the charges

so it would have been really a matter, it would have happened hopefully, it doesn't have t happen. but the governor doe not really have any power to keep that from happening i trump were to decide not t willingly come and call himsel out. i don't think he wants to be on a slow bus up from florida to new york in custody >> i have done that drive from florida to new york. i can tel you it is long and painful congresswoman, is it just th 2024 republicans doing this, w often hear about rupert murdoch, you know, he dislikes trump an that foxes out to get, him o turning on him -- watch ho they reacted to this

indictment >> the state will go down as a dark day for america >> we are in a police state, i'm not even arguing this. >> it is too great an assaul on our system, much greate than anything we've seen o january 6th. >> if there is a mugshot o donald trump, it will be i dorm rooms and on t-shirts >> he is a bad us if he has go a mugshot. >> he recently called murdaugh a rhino. is this just abou ratings? why can't they quit their maga daddy, as they pu it. why can't they let go of donald trump >> i think obviously, it i tied to their ratings. the want to hold on to that maga base. the maga base wants to continue to hold on to donal trump. and donald trump is playing this for all it is worth. even though i think tha he doesn't want to be an indicted former president, h is using both fox news, an elected republicans, and his fundraising apparatus to pla this for all it is worth. and don't know what is in it for fox, but all of those hosts wh have created a bit of distance

from donald trump are all righ back in the donald trump cam once again, proving that the republican party simply cannot separate from donald trump >> all right panel, please stick around. we have a lo more to discuss. next, we will turn to one other, one of th other trump legal headaches. the special counsel's 2020 election investigation. don' go anywhere. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. (woman) it's a perfect fit for my small business. (vo) verizon has business internet solutions nationwide. (man) for our not-so-small business too. (vo) get internet that keeps your business ready for anything. from verizon. living with metastatic breast cancer means i cherish my memories. but i don't just look back on them, i look forward to the chance to make new ones every day with verzenio. verzenio is proven to help you

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i screwed up. if you're living with hiv, keep loving who you are. mhm. i got us t-mobile home internet. now cell phone users have priority over us. and your marriage survived that? you can almost feel the drag when people walk by with their phones. oh i can't hear you... you're froze-- ladies, please! you put it on airplane mode when you pass our house. i was trying to work. we're workin' it too. yeah! work it girl! woo! i want to hear you say it out loud. well, i could switch us to xfinity. those smiles. that's why i do what i do. that and the paycheck. as a business owner, your bottom line is always top of mind. so start saving by switching to the mobile service designed for small business: comcast business mobile. flexible data plans mean you can get unlimited data or pay by the gig. all on the most reliable 5g network, with no line activation fees or term contracts... saving you up to 75% a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today.

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asked to comment about the conversations he had with trum in the run up to january 6th insurrection. but he tol reporters this week that he ha quote, nothing to hide. trump' lawyers separately filed a objection to the subpoenas o executive privilege grounds. but the judge rejected tha appeal. let's bring back our panel. carol, this was a bus week. any other week where a former president wasn' indicted, this ruling in favor of jack smith, or for jack smith's investigation, tha would have been the headline it would have been what we wer talking about through th entire hour. but we are talkin about this a bit less becaus of what has happened to th former president. ho significant of a ruling wa this that mike pence has t comply or a testify in jac smith's investigation?

>> that part of the ruling i very significant. it means h does have to give testimon about the things that jack smith is really interested in. i think to the extent that h and trump's allies are claimin victory -- it is limited to th fact that because the vice president actually serves as the president of the senate, h has some legislative role. tha means that he has some immunit under the speech or debate clause of the constitution which protects people in congress for the actions and words that they may say or d in the course of their legislative duties. but that sounds like the chief justic took a very surgical approac here and he said, with respect to his actions, as president o the senate, he has som immunity there. but he does no have executive privilege ove crimes that the president ma have engaged in. and he has to testify about aspects of his role as vice president, no president of the senate. s that, the claim victory, i

think is a bit broad here. i is a very surgical approac that the chief judge tuck. >> congresswoman -- about th january 6th insurrection, or whatever happened on that day. but that hasn't stopped hi from fighting subpoenas that return that didn't comply with the congressional inquiry to what happened on january 6th if you truly had nothing t hide, wouldn't he welcome th chance to set the record straight beyond just trying to sell books >> you would think. but th vice president says one thin but he has been very aggressively trying to keep hi role and his voice actuall silent in all of these investigations. it does feel now, that with the special counsel probe that the vic president is going to have t sit down and answer question under oath about his conversations into the days an weeks leading up to januar

6th. and so, i think that is a good thing for the america people. we need those things t continue. what is interestin to me, is that in taking the stand that he has thus far, th vice president continues t really protect. i don't really understand it, but to protec donald trump and so i guess we will learn more about that i the coming days and weeks. >> david, wouldn't mike pence' testimony in this case, presume her to donald trump? i so, wouldn't pence want to damage his possible 2024 primary rival? i think about i the shoe is on the other foo and donald trump had the chanc to testify against his political opponent, what do yo think donald trump would b doing? >> you are right. he would b testifying. but again, it is back to this view. if you look at the recent polls about 70

of republicans said that the felt the indictment in new yor was politically motivated, and essentially unfair. when the were asked whether trump shoul be disqualified from running for president, because of th indictment over 90% of republicans said no. the majority of americans disagree on both of those points. so it is pence trying to have hi cake and eat it too. the important thing here is that this helps special counsel jac smith. what pence has been ordered to testify about his potential illegal acts b donald trump. you know, di trump pressured him with corrupt intent? that is the ke legal phrase here, to act like the vice president chooses the next president, not the voters the trump no, or should he hav known that that was fraudulent that it was not in pence's power? this is a big ste forward, because getting insid donald trump's head, what di he say to mike pence, what did he say about his closest aides

is a huge part of any possible prosecution for january 6th fo jack smith >> talk to us about where this goes next, carroll, jack smith is doing two investigation simultaneously. this obviously compels mike pence to testify. we are still waiting to see if mike pence appeals thi decision but how does what happen next impact the investigation and how do you assess where jack smith is taking this investigation base on him seeking this testimon from mike pence? >> well, with the return of th indictment by the stat prosecutor in manhattan, i think that that does break the ice a little bit. it gets th american public, it gets their head around the concept that not only a former president, but someone who has declared h is going to run for th presidency again is now unde criminal indictment. in that sense, in a sort of atmospheri sense, it takes pressure off o

jack smith. he is running tw investigations that are very different in nature. one has t do with the oddity of keepin classified materials i mar-a-lago and the other o course is the much large investigation into january 6th and what he has done has bee to work his way up the totem pole here of witnesses and now he sits with the vice presiden getting testimony about what was going on in very, very confidential situations within the white house walls. i think at that point, once he has all of that evidence, he has to si down and merrick garland has t sit down and they have got t make really, really toug decisions here about whether either of those cases are goin to be brought, and there are reasons to bring either one of them, or not bring either on of them. that is going to be a really tough call for both jac smith and merrick garland. >> all right, former congresswoman donna edwards, thank you all so much. greatly

appreciate your time and insights. next, why the gop is so obsessed with banning books and not guns with banning books and not guns? with banning books and not guns? with banning books and not guns? with banning books and not guns? with banning books and not guns? with banning books and not guns? with banning books and not guns? with banning books and not guns? with banning books and not guns? allergies don't have to be scary. (screaming) defeat allergy headaches fast with new flonase headache and allergy relief! two pills relieve allergy headache pain? and the congestion that causes it! flonase headache and allergy relief. psst! psst! all good! (vo) businesses nationwide are switching to verizon business internet. and allergy relief. (woman) it's a perfect fit for my small business. (vo) verizon has business internet solutions nationwide. (man) for our not-so-small business too. (vo) get internet that keeps your business ready for anything. from verizon. i'm the sizzle in this promposal.

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aftermath of children an educators being murdered, bu at the very least mentione thoughts and prayers, bu apparently that is not the cas anymore in this country, apparently some republican have rationalized that may b even accepted that our babie will be slaughtered in classrooms, and there is simpl nothing we can do about it there is nothing republicans can do about murder in schools but it seems that there is endless opportunities fo action when it comes to bannin books and different courses in those schools. for that, republicans will work nonstop. from the inception of the snow years long circus of censorshi decides as -- it has been student discomfort that serves as a rallying cry for thes conservatives. it was studen discomfort that led to purge after part of local librarie and school classrooms. it wa student discomfort tha necessitated textbooks b stripped of black history. i was a student discomfort tha is now prompted florid governor, ron desantis, to expand his don't take a lo through the 12th grade effectively eradicatin discussions of queer people an

gender topics from florida public schools. that discomfort, that discomfort required action. and that discomfor required bill after bill after bill to be introduced by the florida legislator. but studen discomfort means nothing t republicans when it comes to weapons of war, and the weekly shootings that we endured in this country. tell us studie have shown that armed guards and active shooter drill correlate with massive spike in anxiety, and depression among students and teachers. those appeared to mean nothing to republicans. this natio subjects its children to actin out school shootings in an effort to protect and prepar them, because republicans seem to have accepted that children might be gunned down as they learn in classrooms. earlier this week, the president of th american federation of teacher said this at a rally i washington d. c. >> these attacks are not about protecting kids. if they were, these same governors would b working with us to address learning loss and the yout

mental health crisis. they would be working with us t take on social media companies for contributing to that crisis. if these attacks wer about protecting kids, the would be working with us t fight against the leading caus of death of american children, gun violence >> it is not about protectin kids. it is about protecting guns. banning books and bannin conversations and schools will not protect children. bu banning guns would protect them. so when we hear such defeatism from a republica member of congress, we mus remember that they don't hav to be defeated. they choose to be defeated. republicans hav by and large chosen to not protect our children. they'v

chosen, instead, to launch fak culture wars and they are doin that in part to take the focus off of their lack of action on real issues. as democratic congressman jarrett moscow had said this week, you guys are worried about banning books, that kids can't read. we wil be right back with randi weingarten weingarten weingarten weingarten weingarten weingarten weingarten weingarten t defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel- nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works. my name is wendy, i'm 51 years old, and i'm a hospital administrator. when i talk to patients you can just see from here up when you're wearing a mask. and i have noticed those lines beginning to really become not so much moderate but more severe. i'm still wendy and i got botox® cosmetic.

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>> let's continue now with our conversation on the gop book bans, and school shootings wit the president of the america federation of teachers, andy wajngarten. it is great to see you again, thank you for comin back on the show. that clip we just played was from the speec that she gave at the nationa press club earlier this week it is safe to say that you hav effectively become the white house's point person in pushin back on gop book bans. tell us a little bit about your plan and when do you think presiden biden himself will start weighing in more forcefully on this issue >> well, you know, let me just say i think that secretary cardona has weighed in and the president has weighed in and others have. i think that more important, we should focus les on political and more on educational. i think what yo just said before is completely right, which is the hypocris you laid bare the hypocrisy of it. other countries, western democracies have figured out how to stop mass shootings o people. australia, scotland,

new zealand, in the united states, they have done commo sense anti gun that ca violence measures. they figure it out, and we have to ban weapons of mass destruction. that is not banning hunting, that is not bending handgun an when we did in this country, w saw a huge decrease in shootings. so if we actually care about kids, the highest cause of death, the reason tha most kids died's gun violence. not book banning. discomfort i not death. ultimately, i don't understand why they are fearfu of children learning, but no

fearful of children dying. >> yeah, that was a question i was going to pose to you. don't know if you have a answer to it, but why do you think it is? we have discussed so much the rationale behind the republicans banning of books because as they see it it makes the students feel uncomfortable. and yet republicans do not seem to car that active shooter drills, or armed guards, or metal doors or security cameras have - which have been shown to b extremely traumatizing for kid and teens, that is not a cause of concern. that discomfort is not a cause of concern >> look, i can't tell you, i a not a psychologist. i am a schoolteacher, and i am lawyer. so, i cannot tell yo what the psychological -- what is going on psychologically in the republican's minds right now. this is not ronal

reagan's republican party. i had a lot of problems with ronald reagan, but his republican party was about fre enterprise. he would never banned books. that would b about freedom, and liberty. bu what i do know is hypocris when i see it. i do know dange when i see it. what they are afraid of is they are afraid o their kids learning. and their kids minds being opened up. an frankly, this is not where mos americans are. the lates polling we did, galloped it, i is like an 80 20 split in term of where americans are. but think what we need to do is we need to actually deal with the anxiety. that is why the other part of my speech this week wa about how do we overcome earning loss, and how do w overcome the sadness and the depression that kids have, so suggested, i proposed how we get to scale with the things

that would affect that. like enlarging community schools, doing experimental learning. really deepening the connectio between parents and teachers and dealing with the teacher shortage. but the one left, would say is this. they ar trying to create this distrust they are trying to creat anxiety. and a great country i about creating both unity an honoring all of the people tha are within that country. and that is our job as educators and that is what i wil continue to do >> we have about a minute left i wanted to ask you abou parental rights and this conversation, because when i comes to their children' conversations, it has become a huge flash point in this country. people feel ver strongly about it. how do yo convince parents that thei kids are in good hands without

alienating anyone? >> well, we need parents t have rights in this country, just like we need teachers t have rights in this country. frankly, most parents trus their teachers, love their kid teachers. they do not want their kids to be teachers, but because of what we go through, but they love their kids teachers. most parents do no want one or two parents to deprive their kids of the righ to learn. but we have to mak sure that all parents feel comfortable, so we need to deepen the relationship betwee parents and educators, and not be afraid of it. >> i was totally agreeing with you there, i apologize, didn't mean to cut you off. was totally agreeing with you. >> no problem. i mean, we ca do it. the last thing i will say is that during the heigh of covid, i used to have zooms with parents who completel

disagreed with me. and you know, there were frictions sometimes but you have to gain trust, an that is what we need to do. we need to talk to people who disagree with us >> absolutely. all right, it i always a part of leisure, than you for joining us. we greatly appreciate your time and insight, as always keep up the good work to you and you organization. thank you fo making time for us, come bac tomorrow night at nine eastern on msnbc. i will be joined b lanny davis, michael cohen's lawyer, for his reaction to th indictment and his promise tha he will be a key witness i trump's trial. former federa prosecutor, andrew weissmann will also join tha conversation, until then i a ayman, have a good night paradontax blood when you brush could lead to worse over time. help stop the clock on gum disease now. parodontax toothpaste... ...is 3x more effective at removing plaque bacteria, one of the main causes of bleeding gums. parodontax. the gum experts.

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