new manhattan district attorney, the investigation into donal trump's role in the stormy daniels hush money case seemed like it was headed nowhere the investigation was prioritize, the number o people who working on it began to dwindle, while others in th da's office started referrin to it as a zombie case because it seemed dead but at some point, could come roaring back to life. fast forward to today, it is a the center of a historic prosecution of a forme president of the united states the first ever tomorrow night, donald trump i scheduled to return to new yor as he prepares to turn himself in to prosecutors in downtow manhattan. and on tuesday afternoon, he will be arraigned. facing charges for his possibl role in the scheme to keep stormy daniels from revealin their alleged 2006 affair righ before the presidentia election of 2016 trump continues to deny that h had a relationship with daniels, the exact charges that trump faces right or unknown because, for now, the objectiv

remains under seal but according to two sources familiar with the matter, trum is facing around 30 charges as a related to documents rob security in and around the men hat and court house who is bee beefed ever since trump bega making intimidating post o truth social directed at the manhattan district attorney' office for weeks now, the twice impeached ex president has bee vigorously attacking alvin bragg online also attacking virtually the entire american justice system as the grand jury an prosecutors in manhattan get closer to indicting him. and in his first official 2024 campaign rally in waco, texas, last saturday night. his supporters held up posters that said witch hunt as he delivered a speech tha contains many baseless accusations that the prosecutors currentl investigating him ar politically motivated to tak him down given though he has been s previously occupied with the idea of being indicted, th

news on thursday coming that h was actually going to be indicted still caught trump by surprise there may have been some magical thinking on his part that nothing would actuall happen to him, especially sinc he has gone so long withou having to face any rea consequences for his often questionable actions last wednesday, trump even pos on his truth social accoun that he has quote, gained such respect for this grand jury an perhaps the grand jury syste as a whole, and quote, and again, he implored prosecutors to, quote, drop this sikh witc hunt a day later, the manhattan grand jury voted to indict him trump hasn't been seen much in public since his rally in waco over a year ago, except when h has been going to and from his golf course in florida, an because of all the securit concerns and intricate preparations being made for hi manhattan arraignment is unclear to how much we wil actually see of him if we will see him at all on tuesday. would be much of a surprise, however, if trump did try to make a spectacle of hi

appearance the news of the indictment i actually given its 202 presidential campaign a bi fund raising bump to the tun of over $5 million in the firs 48 hours since the public foun out about the grand jury's decision but that may just be temporary solace for trump and his campaign, because this may b just the beginning of his lega struggles, as a multiple investigations into his conduc continue and of trump's own legal history is any indication, h will use any and all means a his disposal to try to dismiss or at least delay this cas from going forward as much a possible joining me now is nbc news national politics reporter john allen, he's also th coauthor of the book lucky, ho joe biden barely won the presidency jonathan, good to see you again, my friend. i have to ask you about th politics of this donald trump is making a lot o money. a lot of fundraising off of hi indictment but, politically, what i expected to happen since tha indictment has come down >> i think it is a short ter

versus long term question. the short term, you have see republican leaders rally aroun donald trump we have seen with news of this indictment hanging over him, him consolidating report of th republican primary fro president of the united states in 2024. the question is whether number one, if that does help him win the nomination, whether it als pushes people away from him in the general election, meanin the independents, al republicans, that of course, remains to be seen but the polling suggest that that may be the case and of course, there is th midterm. at the mid range of all of this, which is as that republica primary progresses, would this indictment or possible other indictments or possibl convictions put too much baggage on the scale for trump with republican voters who like, him don't like what th da is doing here but also ar worried that he would be a fatally flawed candidate in th general election i >> want to mention something you tweeted yesterday in which donald trump had called for hi

previous democratic opponents, hillary clinton and joe bide to be investigated, you, tweeted trump, while withholding aid to ukraine pushed zelenskyy to investigat biden. one of his mantra in 2016 wa lock her up. in both of his previous bid fo president he encouraged lega action against the leading candidate of the rival party now he has a different view. but he should be shielded fo prosecution for two reasons. one, he denies all wrongdoing. to, because he is the favorite to win the republica nomination tell me more about this. >> it is an essential hypocris here, ali, where, at one point former president donald trum believed that his rivals shoul be investigated. >> including hillary clinton former secretary of state, including joe biden, the forme vice president of the united states knowing full well that tha could have political implications for them. watching that actually happe in 2016 with hillary clinton and the investigation into her and now donald trump is part o his argument that, is not hi only argument, again, here

denies wrongdoing, but part of his argument is that we look like, what he says, is a third world country or a narro republic because you have th government investigating somebody who is likely to be a nominee for a major party, exactly what he was calling fo to happen with hillary clinton and joe biden. >> let's talk a little bit about his republican supporter in congress. as you and i talked on thursda night and early friday morning we talked about one tweet or statement by a republica member of congress there are few who have made an comments at all, including som senators, and they're the ones you'd expect they don't tend to be on trump side on things but i found don bacon of nebraska who had said somethin like how why don't we watch ho the justice system determine what the truth is. i am paraphrasing. have you had any notable interactions or seen anythin by republicans in that ilk generally speaking or is most of what you are seeing like most of what i a seeing, wholehearted full-throated, endorsements of

donald trump and criticisms of alvin bragg and george - -- that is exactly the range,, al and you can see the former par of senator bacon from nebraska is that those who are willin to go hammer alvin bragg o behalf of donald trump, an those who are silent and i some cases, there is support for trump mixed with the hammering of alvin bragg notably, we haven't really see a lot of that support for trum from around desantis, hi leading rival for th republican nomination. >> although we saw a weird comment that when i were talking about on friday mornin from rhonda santas, where he said i will not allow for an extradition. there has been no discussion o an extradition because there i been no discussion that donald trump will resist the idea tha he has to go to manhattan whic is expected to do tomorrow t get arraigned on tuesday ron desantis jumped the gun on this one and trying to extradite donald trump fro florida, i am not participatin in this, which struck some o us as a little odd why are you even going there

it's not a thing >> i think that is exactly right, ali, it is not a thin which makes it very safe political territory to claim that he is going to do something completely over th top that basically smacks of the days of nullification, and questions the confederation of our states into one federa government here he is saying that is not going to be primary. of course, donald trump in his lawyers have been very clear that he was going to b indicted, he would voluntarily show up for an arraignment aun for booking and everything and i think the last thing h wants is to be some kind o standoff between the states of this it doesn't make him look any better >> john, good to see you, as always i relay on you in times like this to create contex around it is good to have you here, john allen i'm joined now, by the way, by the former democrati congressman elizabeth holtzman of new york. this is tricky, i think i' going to walk right in front of, you elizabeth. there we go. she is the former district turney of new york, she is the

author of the book, the case for impeaching trump liz, good to see you >> always great to see you >> you are a rare breed in thi one in that you were a membe of congress, you voted i watergate to impeach richard nixon, you were a district attorney so you have worn al of the hats involved her people often run for offic including da's on a platform a platform of fighting crime usually would be going after a mob bosses or whatever it is they're going to do. donald trump says laetitia james and alvin bragg, the attorney general of th manhattan ditched attorney ran on a platform to take him down they ran on platforms that involved plastic using donal trump or they believe ha committed crimes tell me the distinction there between -- is an argument that donald trump has that they ar politicized because they ran o a platform of going afte donald trump >> well, he can make the argument, but the question really is not alvin bragg or laetitia james

what they have a standin between the prosecutors and trial is a grand jury you have 23 people average citizens picked at random in new york county, manhattan, and they ha to sit in judgment and in th state system the prosecuto can't tell the grand jury want to do the prosecutor cannot sa i want you to indict trump all the prosecutor can do is bring the evidence donald trump actually had witness on his behalf there, and apparently the witness was coaching enough so that the da had to produce more evidence > they ended up bringing david pecker back who, already testified. so something happens there tha was not a trial, but the grand jury had questions the da has to persuade the grand jury, not by bullying no by violence not five horse but by the weight of the evidence, and that, apparently, the jury was persuaded.

this was a jury that sat for a long period of time and they just made the decision on thei own so i think it is reall important to understand that the prosecutor can't have hi or her finger on the thumb a someone on the scales and get result here. it can't happen. and you also will have a ver tough and smart judge who is going to control the courtroom and then you have a regula jury donald trump's lawyers wil participate in the selection o that jury, with the exclusio of people who were advised t happen so that he will have a fai process. then, you have appeals, so, am not overly concerned by these charges. >> you can't just say i do not know the words that they used, i don't think they ever said something like, i'm going to get donald trump but they might say i'm going t try and bring him to justice but the implication is tha there has to be fact, there ha to be evidence to warrant that

>> now, you are a da i brooklyn this is a case in manhattan, there were rumblings of th trump team which was going t try and have this moved out to staten island. now it is important for people not from this area t understand that these ar different counties this was a manhattan da. how does that work would that work, could tha worked for donald trump? could you get the case moved t a place like staten island where he feels he might have a more sympathetic jury pull >> i don't think it is likely. i mean, the standard is can yo get an impartial jury in manhattan. the millions of people who liv in manhattan, the idea that yo can't get an impartial jury in manhattan is, i think, absurd. you have the same news media covering staten island as yo do in manhattan. so i think you are going t have a hard time with a judg to move the trial, and that is very rarely granted, in an case >> i want to ask, you i have michael luttig on the other da who, amongst, others had expressed a disappointment thi is the first case.

tell me about the sense of the other cases. i'm going to put them up on th screen but when you told them up there, they are on seven. we have two that hav defamation cases, laetitia james has a civil, case an then there is the jack smith two cases and then the georgia case is there some sense that there is an order in which they go and he coordination betwee prosecutors on that about, hey can i go first, because this one is going to be bigger? >> not normally. this is a state prosecution. sometimes we coordinate with the federal prosecution when w are deciding that, for example new york state, we didn't have strong enough laws for sometimes getting the evidence and then turn it over to the feds but i can't think of cooperating in the way tha they are talking about although sometimes we do sen prosecutors to help the federa government but i think the idea that this is a kind of trivial case' wrong. let's go back to what exactl is involved here donald trump, the informatio

about stormy daniels was s imperiling to his election tha he had to cover it up. so, it was important to him. we had a cover-up, the america people were deprived of certai information, is it a crime we have to see is there enough information or evidence to prove, that we wil have to see in a normal proces but this is not insignificant. he thought it was significant. >> and to your point, some o the people who are not happy that this is first are sayin that donald trump has imperile democracy in this country. so what they would like to see is a case that deals with hi imperiling of democracy. obviously, january 6th, a phon call in georgia. your point is that this was th beginning of that. >> it imperils democracy because, what it does, in th same way that you have a hug mob of thousands of people who are violent in the capitol and attacked cops. that did not happen here but the cover-up is what i critical, and it was depriving the american people of vital information. donald trump knew it was vital

that is why he wanted to cover it up, so it is no insignificant, it wasn't insignificant to him, wh should it be insignificant t the american people. and we saw in watergate, campaign finances not trivial. people went to prison fo campaign violence -- campaign finance violations in watergate, dozens, dozens an dozens of people and corporations were convicted of campaign finance violations. illegal campaign contributions financed the cover-up in watergate, paid for hush money for the burglars, you can't sa the campaign violations ar trivial. they go to the heart o democracy. to the heart of it liz, thanks as always. we appreciate being here the former congresswoman and judiciary committee member, wh voted to impeach richard nixon also the former brooklyn distracted ernie tonight, starting at 6 p eastern, i will be the special coverage of the indictment o donald trump as we await his

arraignment on tuesday joining my colleagues, simon sanders, katie fang, jonatha capehart, and reverend a sharpton tonight at 6 pm eastern time and we've got some breakin news this morning, really into 2024 white house race. the former republican governor asa hutchinson of arkansas announced this morning that he will run for president with formal announcement coming later this month hutchinson has been an outspoken critic of donald trump. he said in recent days tha trump should leave the rac because of the manhattan indictment he now joins trump and forme u.s. ambassador, nikki haley as republicans who hav formally announced their bid for the gop nomination coming up this hour, trump and his sycophants continue to cal the indictment electio interference i will explain how the indictment is anything but that plus, the antisemitic rhetoric that's playing a big part in this public defense. and as america mourns the loss of another massive schoo shooting, if you wear thos short convince you that th safetyf ochildren is thei number one priority.

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visiting japan for the first time a probably be a culture shock for most americans the food, if a language, the currency and young children walking t school, running errands, and taking the subway on the wrong it is common in tokyo to see small children, as young a five or six years old, traipse along the streets with their many backpacks and their oversized hats either alone, or any group o other young children they are trained by thei parents a young age to safel cross roads, to learn th transportation systems, and to identify places to go if they're ever in trouble. this is the norman japan because it's consistentl ranked one of the safest countries in the world, an because japan place is widespread trust in its ow society. a 2016 article in the wire says, quote, schools also distribute a special yellow patch to firs graders that they were on thei uniforms, which identifies the as an newbies to the art o

navigating in the city adults keep a special eye ou for these patch wearers. retirees sometimes volunteer t usher children across the road safely, while they go to school households can also voluntee to display signs outside their homes, indicating thei willingness to provide refug to any child in distress in japan, there is a collectiv agreement keep children safe a all costs. not so in america. last week in united states, an three children in three school employees were killed in the country's 38 mass shooting i the month of march that's according to the gu violence archive six people are dead after shooter entered a school i nashville, tennessee, but military style ar-15 rifle and began shooting indiscriminately on the day of the shooting, th first lady, jill biden, lifelong educator, had this to say. >> i am truly without words. and our children deserve better. >> our children deserve better

a few days earlier, before the shooting in nashville, republican congressman joh joyce of pennsylvania had similar hope for america's children >> our students deserve better >> their statements are th same, about the meaning behind their words could be mor different. because congressman joyce wa talking about protecting the nation's children, and not fro guns, but from plant-based milk he added, quote, we cannot allow almonds or soy to be passed off as dairy. the outrage! here's a little more of hi speech >> bones, muscle, rain, an vital organs all rely on products like whole milk for healthy development. >> when the bullets from ar-15 ripped through a child, thei bones, muscle, brain, and vita organs are evs rated there is virtually no chance for survival, let alone health development. beware those who will try to convince either the safety o children's are number on priority they are banning books, they'r banning lessons on race, the

are banning health care fo trans children, they are blaming video games, they ar blaming drag, shows or blame subject education, and they're blaming all meant milk excuse, me almond beverage there banning michelangelo's anatomically correct statue of david, on the name o protecting the kids. but none of these things including seeing the statue of david actually puts a child' life at risk of danger you know it does and the military style letha weapons that are legally purchased by people who wish t inflict harm and other people. look at this video look at these children, fleein their elementary school, running for their lives. these children are not fleeing books or statues, or stories o black history. they are trying to out-run bullets from an ar-15 rifle. an impossible task, for si people who never made it out o that school alive. i hope to one day look back at assault weapons we look at drunk driving or smoking o airplanes. today, it seems impossible tha those things are once slightly acceptable but it was time when you could drink a pack of beer and get behind the wheel of a car, o

light a cigarette in the restaurant, or in an airplane. many americans were strongly opposed to criminalizing i drunk driving, or bannin cigarettes on airplanes. but, now it is the norm. my hope is that one day, if we look back and say, wow remember those times whe anyone could just buy an ar-15 that was crazy but not for that to happen, ou lawmakers need to act. and the republican party needs to drop the selective of ragin come to the collective agreement to keep children saf at all costs te came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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anytime donald thinks things are not going instruction, h claims whatever it is hi rigged against him the fbi conducted a yearlong investigation into my emails they concluded there was n case, he said the fbi wa rigged he lost the iowa, consequenc he lost the wisconsin primary. he said the republican primary was rigged against him then trump university gets sue for fraud and racketeering he claims the court system and federal judges rigged agains him. there was even a time when h didn't get an emmy first t program three years in a row and he started tweeting that the emmys were rigged. >> i should've gotten it >> then again, same thing in 2020 trump again, sowing seeds of doubt about mail-in ballots an election integrity months before a ballot was cast the, start he's not just losin a race, or in any, or lawsuit. he's facing potential criminal charges, and their legal experts say there is a possibility that donald trum decided to run for president i

2024 in an effort to shiel himself from potential crimina prosecution. because with that line o reasoning, accountability of any kind that trump may face i now considerate, at least by him election interference. which forms part of that which aren't and like clockwork now that th claim of election interference is becoming a talking point on the right on friday how speake kevin carvey tweeted, quote, alvin bragg has irreparabl damaged our country in a attempt to interfere in ou presidential election, and quote. that same day, tucker carlso and fox news dedicated almos the entire hour of his show to reciting trump's claims abou the indictment, including hi idea that it's all just part o the radical left's attempt t interfere with the 2024 race the most basic facts are now the man that happens to be running for president has been indicted but the new lie that trump and his allies are pushing is trump is a man being indicte because he is running fo president. joining me now is --

professor of history and wha you, author of strongmen, from mussolini to the president author of lucid, a newslette following threats to democracy professor, good to see thi morning. i thought this was important t dive into with you, becaus it's not just one more in th array of things that donal trump has criticized but i politicized prosecution, and all this kind of stuff the idea that he's saying it election interference, in my mind, sets up the public for the idea that even if he's convicted, it is a illegitimate conviction. because it is from the fruit of something that is political not legal. >> absolutely. and he's an expert at doin this and the way propaganda works i that it's most affective of th bills on something already believe. and i'm glad you play that cli from 2016, because trump has been doing these talking points, and trying to turn the publi against anyone who could corrupt and harm him

they do this, al authoritarians do this befor it's a kind of insurancece policy and so they need to see thes narratives so the public wil be primed so they believe that something actually happens everything is coming to a head now. >> let's talk about what thi does, what effect it has because it sounds like the sam old noise. if you are inclined to believe that it's just trump and republican noise about the stuff, then you may no understand the distinction and i do think back to 2020, when months before any ballots were cast, donald trump wa giving interviews to people, including chris wallace. who said, will you accept th results of the election? months before a single ballo have been cast and he says, we will see how i goes he was setting the table for what was to come after the election, and ultimately

january 6th and the effort t overturn the election. this feels like setting th table for -- if donald trump is found guilty, he won't have a choice n matter as to whether he goes into custody or observes the sentence but his followers do >> yes and this is also the kremlin playbook, but it's much olde than that. it's all about the narrative and the way things are perceived. i'm also glad that the las segment, you talk about trust. because all of this depends on him having a personality cult. the reactions of the gop and fox news, they're al disseminating's talking points and the personality cult that is part of him bein subject to a witch hunt. and the goal of the personalit cult is too subtract trust fro a public in institutions that includes doj, and again anyone who can harm him. the press. and transferred only to th

leader i go alone can fix, it islandton save you and once that trust is deposited in hand, then all of these things he does by th witch hunt, it all makes sense and so propaganda creates this universe where followers hav irrational to believe, and the -- trump is going to milk all o this >> how does it work in contemporary times on the world? and we have an example i benjamin at yahoo. similar situation. under prosecution, running for office, and actually trying to change some law so that can' be removed from office it - does it resonate or does it cause people to say that's a bridge too far? >> it does resonate, a ver good example which went furthe was sylvia - who was a protagonist of m book, strongman. who he was corrupt in so man

ways and he underwent som corruption trials, he used the same witch hunt, he's done all of the talking points. we heard through the berluscon years. he was forced to resign due to the crisis into thousand 11. in 2013, he was convicted fo six crimes with an underag person wiretapping, fraud, robbery. and that's very interesting. he was banned from politics fo five years he couldn't run for office and that's when in the beginning, his party actuall owns another election 2013 his own personality cult started to deflate and it wa that experience that the state being able to convict him an saying that no, he's not immortal, he's not untouchable this is why his indictment i so important donald trump can still say, oh i can stand on fifth avenue an

shoot someone and i woul mostly followers maybe his followers would like to know that he shooting someone, but he will be held accountable. and so it's very, very important to restore trust i government institutions that this indictment has happened >> ruth, good to see you, as always thank you for being with us. the author of strongmen, fro mussolini to the president of, next we will switch gear and arkansas, where on resident said it looks like bomb went off phone deadly tornadoes. at least 60 of, them that tore through the south in the midwest this weekend ipan! [ laughs ] oh, my daughter gives the best hugs! we're just passing through on our way to the jazz jamboree. [ imitates trumpet playing ] and we wanted to thank america's number-one motorcycle insurer -for saving us money. -thank you. [ laughs ] mara, your parents are -- exactly like me? i know, right? well, cherish your friends and loved ones. let's roll, daddio! let's boogie-woogie! (vo) businesses nationwide are switching

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underway after a deadly stor spawned at least 60 possible tornadoes from arkansas to the east coast altogether, 27 people are dead at least one person died las night. after a tornado ripped through bridgeport, delaware alabama, mississippi, an indiana have all reporte deaths from the same storm system in belvedere, illinois, tornado threat hit a theater packed with people the roof collapsed, killing at least one injuring dozen others in arkansas, a state o emergency remains in effect. residents there are just starting to pick up the pieces after this weekend of severe weather. joining me now is nbc news reporter, emily -- from little rock, arkansas emily, after talking t yesterday, a lot more happened overnight. the death toll has risen significantly since we spoke how widespread is this damag where you are? and how is little rock doing >> yeah.

the death toll continues t rise now a staggering 27, as yo mentioned. president biden, earlier thi morning, declaring a major disaster for the state o arkansas and you can see why. an ef3, no confirmed tornado tore through this section of little rock, arkansas. working with 165 mile per hour winds. you can see with the kind of forced us to homes like this tearing the break off, a bedroom completely exposed just completely destroying the foundation a teacher lives here he was actually not home at th time, he was a few minutes away, teaching at the school when th storm passed through here. a monstrous one, at that you can imagine the horror whe he turns the corner, arrived t this home, a mangled mess. some power lines, trees, his home in shambles residents have to pick up th pieces, salvage what they can. we will lose storms that rolle through a matter of days but people have died i arkansas and five of those

deaths have been in arkansas that town has been completel decimated. the school there, among th impacted and damaged we are learning, just in the last few minutes, that the will be closed throughout this week potentially even longer. i want to share more of what w are hearing from presidents on the ground who described wha happened take a listen. >> it looks like a bomb went off inside of it you can see this right here, that's what it looks like in every room except for this front corner that window is - >> the only thing we can tak from this is there's no one, hears there was no one hurt. and things to be replaced. >> arkansas, far from alone in dealing with mangled messe like this. there have been 27 death across seven different states. we continue to learn what more can from tornadoes, as nationa weather service surveyors ge out there and assess the damage, ali. >> thanks very much for your reporting. nbc's emily academy.

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phrase from the fabric of th american democracy 's faith in our politician falters. an attempted insurrection at the suggestion of outgoing president, unwilling t abdicate power it's alarmingly easy to draw comparisons between our nation and others around the world, that have fallen int are flirting with authoritarianism in the days since hi indictment, trump and hi allies have begun to claim wit a witch hunt against him, is a sign of american decline into a, quote, a banana republic yesterday on our show, the former fbi specialist with counter intelligence divisio and insistent dean of th school of global affairs joi me to discuss the indictment nickel bulk on text. we made this important point >> it feels counterintuitive because we do tend to associat

prosecuting former leaders a being associated with banana republics. but actually, a study that was done by axios found that since 2000, 78 former leaders in 7 countries have been jailed o prosecuted and since 1980, about half the countries in the world have ha such a case. our watercolor, monarchies and dictatorships are the places that are least likely to hav former leaders prosecuted an jailed >> sasha's view is this is democracy in action. this is holding power to account, and that's exactl something that wouldn't happen in an authoritarian government joining me now anne applebaum, staff writer for the atlantic, in the uglier institute. also pulitzer prize-winnin historian, and author of several important books, h couldn't twilight of democracy the seductive lure o authoritarianism an, and good to see. you think for being with u this morning >> thanks for having me. >> i think this is interesting on thursday, night as this happened, i was watching other media.

i notice that it was very, ver easy for people to lean into the idea that this was the onset of authoritarianism. the idea that the former president would be held to account by the legal system wa lost on many but the idea that former president was indicted could only be exposed as something that was bad for democracy i'd love your opinion. >> i think your previous comments make it clear tha that's an illustration that we just don't know that much abou other democracies. in recent years, brazilian french, other leaders have bee investigated or indicted and what we've seen in our country's a grand jury indictment, meaning that a group of ordinary citizens mad this decision. so they looked at the evidence and they decided that th evidence merited the adjustment so you can't blame it on joe biden, you kindly run the whit house, you can't even blame it on the federal government. actually, you can blame it o the governor of new york it is coming from this group o

people so what we are seeing, is th normal application of the law. we are seeing a former president being held to accoun in a normal way. this is how our system works in our system, nobody is a lov of the law nobody is an exception and this proves that is th case the argument otherwise, th argument that this is someho extreme or dangerous, or tha it illustrates our legal syste failing is quite dangerous, as you say, because it reduce peoples faith in those institutions and even around for a long time. >> now, it could be good because it may reinforce the faith in those institutions, o at least of people believe tha the rule of law triumphs ove other things that said, you have studie countries that have gone fro autocracy or communism t democracy. and in some cases, back th other direction. there is a danger here tha this type of prosecution, an

this one and the other cases that donald trump may face polarize and already polarized country further. how do you think about that? >> it is a danger. it's something i am worrie about. but that doesn't mean i can sa the legal system should stop working. and so it is incumbent o everybody who wants the lega system to continue working t defend it and explain it, an so on. so the source of polarizatio in this case isn't the legal case the source polarization is the defenders of trump, or trumpism some of whom who have surprise me actually. but the defenders who have instead of saying let's se what happens, let's see how th case plays out let's actually find out what the nature of the case is, because we don't really know yet. instead of saying that, they have attacked the law, the have attacked the prosecutor they have talked about georg soros funding elections in new york, and that is the real

explanation for this it is if the money of th jewish billionaire wer responsible for the story, another legal system all of those things ar actually designed to reduc peoples faith in this system so that people won't be shocke and horrified by the fact that our former president as an indictment hanging over hi head >> so the problem isn' somebody as learned as you, or people talk about all the time it's that donald trump doe have sway over some people and he is convincing them that thi is election interference, an it's a witch hunt, and it's al those things if you get just a moment, so getting commercial break, i' like to discuss how best w convince each other in america that this might be the bes road to go down. and appelbaum, stay with us. or my thirties or my forties. it wasn't until i was 48 years old, when i thought that was way behind me. here you come along and ask me to join you

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staff writer for - and author of several books. including toilet democracy, th

seductive lure o authoritarianism the subtitle of the book, th seductive lure o authoritarianism, when we thin of authoritarianism, i generally a negative thing but in fact, you cite examples even a recent article from the atlantic, from march 1st you're talking about mexico' president, struck things i poland the language that leads people toward authoritarianism is jus generally more attractive than the opposite it's the same way that sensationalistic news gets mor clicks than irregular, factual news does. >> i wouldn't say it's alway more attractive. but in certain circumstances it can be. in circumstances where there i a lot of violence, war, an political division, not unlike the ones that we have now, there are some people who look for a unifying message and single ideas such as simpl solutions. they find it more appealing to hear one leader, rather than multiple voices and it's not a accident that you often ge

autocracies rising after a civil war, or after revolution and the appeal of calm, silent unity. none of this free speech nonsense can be very strong fo some people. not for everybody, but the circumstances helped determine that and unfortunately we are livin in a moment right now where th nature of media and social media is very polarizing it's very divisive, people fee angry. also living in a time a very very rapid change. political change, informationa change, economic change. for some people, the idea that you could freeze or go backwards in time, make americ great again, go back to some earlier period that you feel nostalgic about. when everybody was unified, or that's how you remember it that is very, very strong. and it's not an accident tha these kinds of movements are powerful, not just in united states but in mexico, in poland,

in turkey, in many other place that have very stron democracies only recently. >> when donald trump started saying, i am your retribution. loose alina was known to say, am your avenger. donald trump said, i am your justice. he used to say, i alone can fi this so this is a part of that idea i get that you all hav grievances and beef. i am your answer people feel resentment for different reasons, they feel they didn't get what the thought they deserved in their lives, or they don't like th way america is going, or the way they think it's going. or the way they imagine it's going. and he offers an answer. i will make you feel better, you'll get revenge, i will mak up for whatever it is you've lost and whenever you have a period of very rapid change, people d lose things. and ways of life, or thing that people used to do on th same as they used to be.

and trump offers that kind o answer for people. therefore it's really incumben on those who oppose him, whether it's in the republican party or democratic party, t get people focused on differen subjects what are the practical means what are the things that we ca do to help people feel mor integrated into the societ they live in how do we create more economic growth whatever, there are differen kinds of solutions in differen places but the answer is not to giv into this division and polarization, but to fin different answers to those sam things that people are missing in their lives >> but if that were that easy, it would've happened in al those places that you writ about. and, thanks very much as always and applebaum is a staff write for the atlantic she's the author of twilight o democracy, the seductive lur of authoritarianism. it's a big week ahead fo donald trump, and for this nation at the ex president is expecte to be arraigned in manhattan o tuesday. everything you need to kno another hour of velshi, whic begins right now

good morning to you. it is sunday, for the second it's 11 am in the east, 8 am i the west i'm ali velshi, just one yea ago shortly after alvin brag became the new man hande strict tierney the investigation into donal trump's role in the stormy daniels hush money case seemed like it was going nowhere fast the investigation was prioritized, the number of people who are working on it began to dwindle others in the da's offic started calling it a zombi case, because it seemed did, but it seemed like a come back to life. fast forward to today, it's at the center of a historic prosecution of a forme president of united states tomorrow night, donald trump i scheduled to return to new yor city, as he prepares to himsel into prosecutors