good morning to you. it is sunday, for the second it's 11 am in the east, 8 am i the west i'm ali velshi, just one yea ago shortly after alvin brag became the new man hande strict tierney the investigation into donal trump's role in the stormy daniels hush money case seemed like it was going nowhere fast the investigation was prioritized, the number of people who are working on it began to dwindle others in the da's offic started calling it a zombi case, because it seemed did, but it seemed like a come back to life. fast forward to today, it's at the center of a historic prosecution of a forme president of united states tomorrow night, donald trump i scheduled to return to new yor city, as he prepares to himsel into prosecutors

trump continues to deny that h had a sexual relationship with daniels. as we learn just moments ago we will hear from donald trump right after his expected arraignment on tuesday earlier, the trump campaig released a statement saying th former president will delive remarks as mar-a-lago in pal beach, florida, and tuesda night. the exact charges that trump faces are currently unknown. because the indictment remains under seal but according to two sources familiar with the matter, trum is facing roughly 30 car charges related to documen fraud. security in and around the lower manhattan courthouse are where trump will be arraigne has been ratcheted up in recen leaks. ever since trump began makin intimidating posts on trut social, directed at th manhattan district attorney' office the ex president has bee vigorously targeting brag, and virtually the entire justice system as the prosecutors in manhatta got closer to inviting him

and in his first official 2024 campaign rally, his supporters held up signs said which and he delivered a speech that canadian litany of baseles allegations against th prosecutors who are currentl investigating him. even though he's been so obviously in publicl preoccupied with the thought o being indicted, recent reports indicate that thursday's new actually going to be indicted, caught trump off-guard there have been some magical thinking that is part that i think it actually happened t him, especially since he's gon so long that having to face an real consequences for his ofte dubious actions. last wednesday, trump even posted on his truth social account that he has, quote gain such respect for this grand jury and perhaps the grand jury system as a whole end quote. and again, implored prosecutor to, quote, drop this sikh witc hunt one day later, the manhattan grand jury voted to indict him

trump hasn't been seen much in public since his rally in waco except when he's been going to and from his golf course i florida. and it all the securit concerns, and the intricat preparations being made for hi arraignment, it's unclear ho much we will actually see of him, if at all, and tuesday. it wouldn't be a surprise if donald trump tried to make a spectacle of his appearance. it is actually given u campaign huge fundraising bombs, the tune of $2 million the first 48 hours since publi found out about the granarie decision but that may just be temporary because the trump -- this is just the beginning o his legal struggles. he has multiple investigations into his conduct if trump's own legal histories and make an indication, he wil use any and all means at his disposal to try to dismiss o at least delay this case we're going forward as much as possible joining me now is hugo lowell, political mastications reporte the guardian hugh, you and i haven't talked

since early friday morning this is all fairly new we've learned a little mor about what the charges may contain. we've learned about what trump world was thinking, and what donald trump is likely to do what are you thinking now abou where we are, compared t friday morning >> i think we are in a muc more dangerous position, wit respect to trump he spent the first part of the weekend on a conference call with allies and advisers, an at one point he kind of winds, well, they really decided to indict me. and then he said something t the effect of, well, it's time to go rough them up. and so i think we are entering a new stage with trump, wher he is more aggressive. i think the initial shock of the indictment has worn off, and it's been replaced by this desire to really aggressivel go after the da's office >> hugo, you've been hearing that donald trump is going t have a speeches, going to give a speech at mar-a-lago

this is not his typical rall style. one doesn't know how legally wise it is to do this. it's going to keep talking throughout this thing, and you could take a year or more to get to the bottom of he was able to raise $5 millio in the indictment. what is the political calculus for trump? >> the political calculus is what has been for two weeks. he is always expected, and h is now seen the result that an indictment is with respect t republican voters. they were sharing the campaign calling that for trump, 20 points above desantis. was really encouraged by that, you know sees this as political -- this idea of holding a press conference in mar-a-lago was him nothing able to resist

making public comments on this his team had actually aske whether they could do some sor of press conference, or pres availability at the courthouse and after they were rebuffed b court officials and the secret service, they were trying to figure out where trump could get his head in four publi speaking this is where they hav resulted i think this all comes back to the same point, the trump is now trying to cash in on this, and trying to make the rest of the republican field come to his defense. and he sees this as a massiv political boost. >> again, you know we're talking friday morning about the paltry number of elected republicans have taken the vie that, hey, this is a court case he's not been convicted of anything he's innocent until proven guilty what we see this all plays out don bacon of nebraska remain one of the few holdouts. there are certainly number o senators who have not commente yet, and they're the ones yo expect, probably wouldn't come to trump's defense pretty much everything else, lock stock and barrel, lined u behind trump criticizing alvin bragg, and

bringing george soros into the whole thing. >> you have. i think that if there was on moment where republicans could try and distance themselve from trump, this would be now. right? they have their republican rifle under criminal investigation, marked fordha jurisdictions. there is a way to distance yourself from trump effectively, announcing able to do this i think part of this is becaus everyone watched how desanti threw a rock at trump and trum responded with his deluge of vitriol, with the homophobic comments on truth social what has happened is all the other potential candidates hav fallen in line behind him, and we're back to the same old stuff after january 6th. where mccarthy blamed trump fo the capitol attack and then he was bowing to trump few months later in mar-a-lago. >> thanks for your great reporting, as always i don't know what would've don without you the last few years but hugo lowell is a political

investigations reporter at the guardian with me now is caroline, she's a form united states attorne for the district of california former judge in san dieg county, and msnbc lega analyst. also joining us is joyce vance for me not states attorney for the northern district of alabama. and msnbc contributor. good morning to both of you, thanks for being here. carol, you were with me on thursday night and frida morning. i've got to tell, you 1 millio things are going through m head it's hard to keep clea everything that everybody said something people said brok through. you kept leaning on the fact there is a justice system, there are jury trials. there are actually judges. so for all the stuff tha donald trump is trying to sa about the system, he's going t get a trial in which he goes in, presumed innocent, and it is o the government to convince the jurors otherwise >> that's the big irony of thi whole situation. these claims of authoritaria governments or witch hunts, or

things like that this country has the mos amazing justice system in th world. and to denigrate that becaus donald trump is not gettin what he wants personally i really, really below the lowes you can get. this is a system of the u.s. constitution guarantees certai rights to criminal defendants. they have the right not to testify against themselves they have the right to attorneys, they have a general right to due process they have a right to a speed trial. they have a right to be judged by a jury of their peers one of the country has a syste like that? and so donald trump is going t have the presumption o innocence. he's going to have the sam rights a criminal defendants everywhere in the country have and the justice system is no perfect sometimes. it's not perfect in it execution. but this is not an authoritarian state. this is not authoritaria

action >> so joyce, let's talk abou the politicization, th allegations politicization putting aside for a moment the allegations of interference. it gets into new territory but the allegation that this i a witch hunt, and it was politicized. just going from the system tha carole just described, where h will be arraigned, there wil be discovery, there will be jury trial with a judg supervising it if donald trump is right i saying that the prosecution wa politicized, in other words, i he thinks alvin bragg headed i for him, can the system correc that >> the system candidates designed to. we know the trump' relationship with criminal justice system is purely transactional. he just pointed that out he praised grand juries in general, in this grand jury in one of his social media posts. when he thought that he wasn't going to be indicted the minute that he finds out h is under indictment, h

criticizes judges, prosecutors by name. which is a very dangerou practice and he's done 180 degrees. it has nothing to do with an actual perception that there i a witch hunt it is purely transactional the system is designed t prevent prosecutors from bringing charges that ar faulty, because defendants are presumed to be innocent unti proven guilty. and a jury will have t evaluate the evidence in thi case, and they will have t conclude unanimously, ever single juror, not only the trump's guilty but that trump' guilty beyond a reasonable doubt before he can be convicted. so far from a witch hunt, this is a trial based on facts, evidence, and the law. >> i want you both disagree on for a moment we're gonna take a quick break i like to continue thi conversation on the other side carol lamb and joyce vance staying with me. still ahead this hour on velshi, how history will member donald trump after his indictment thi week nbc news presidential historian, michael beschloss weighs in. and the right can't stop

talking about george soros mischaracterizing hi connection to the manhatta district attorney. many are calling it an antisemitic dog whistle. let's try blow horn. plus, an update on the war i ukraine. president zelenskyy has made a trip to bucha to commemorate the anniversary of that town's brutal occupation. while loading up our suv, one extra push and... crack! so, we scheduled at safelite.com. we were able to track our technician and knew exactly when he'd arrive. we can keep working! ♪ synth music ♪ >> woman: safelite came to us. >> tech: hi, i'm kendrick. >> woman: replaced our windshield, and installed new wipers to protect our new glass. that's service on our time. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps?

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and two of the smartest lawyer i, know carole lamb, for me i' states attorney for th southern district of californi and an nbc legal analyst angela vance is the former u.s attorney for the norther district of alabama and an msnbc contributor. joyce, last week when donald trump was saying all of thes nasty things about alvin bragg some of them outright racist and calling him an animal in things like that, but th threats. the picture that he posted o truth social that he apparentl re-posted and then took of because some lawyer must hav told him you can't do this wit a bat next to alvin bragg' head i'd assume that for you,

prosecutors threats ar commonplace. and every prosecutor since has told, me no, you can't threate your prosecutor, you can threaten your judge. >> so i think that both of these things can be true it is possible that it is no an uncommon experience for prosecutors to be threatened but at the same time, you can' do it. and there are lines that wil be drawn there has been a lot of talk about whether or not a gag order, for instance, might b entered against donald trump i don't think that we will see that off the bat, but i expect that the judge will spea fairly strongly to trump and draw some lines. and if trump crosses over them there will be consequences it is also possible that whe you threaten prosecutors tha the threats are very specifi in nature, and if they invok violence, that it could end up violating new york law it could even end up being a violation of federal law so no one has the appetite t appear as though they ar treating trump differently tha other defendants

but, at some point, if the continue to invoke violence, which we know comes with a enormous risk, we recently saw the attack on paul pelosi by someone who was motivated, a least, in part, by trump's rhetoric knowing that those risks exist it is irresponsible for th former president to continue doing this and the courts will have way to hold him accountable if h does not begin to tow the line >> carol, you were a judge donald trump has already chime in on the judge. he has not threatened him, but he has said that the judge hates him. now the judge was involved i the trump organization case, but they say that is useful in this case, because it will b complex, and it will hav things having to do with trump's finances that will b useful, that the judge i familiar with. give me the sense of, is thi the right judge, and what do you do when somebody who i indicted, a defendant says tha the judge hates them >> i think it is a great advantage for the entire syste that it is the same judge wh

oversaw the trump organization prosecution. because he now has the entir context. he can see what is comin around the corner, he sort o knows what to expect from th parties. the court systems are a very interesting system once you go into that courtroom and yo have the judge up on the bench and you have the parties and council table and you have the jurors there it sort of take on a very good, usually, goo system of its own. and all of the politics, all o the rhetoric outside, it doe not get into the core group. i think as a judge, this judge says his first sense o responsibility is going to b for the jurors the judges have a very protective nature about th jurors these are people who hav surrendered their daily lives, they have come into this syste that most of them don't have much familiarity with, and the are asked to do something of incredible importance where th consequences can be very severe

and, for the most part, they have put aside their daily lives and they really do the best that they can now the attorneys on both side will have an opportunity t what we call, endure the juror to ask him questions beforehand, to make sure that they can kee an open mind and be impartia and fair but for the judge, judges know that, unfortunately this i part of the job. to keep an eye on everything and to see weather threats ris to such a level that they ca have some action but i think that, primarily, the judge in this case is goin to be looking out for th interests of the parties and the jurors >> judge vance, there is a allegation by the trump kincad that they cannot get a fai trial. for those who are unfamiliar with new york, these are different counties, manhatta is a different county than the other boroughs, staten islan is another county as well. this was a manhattan distric attorney tell me about the commonalit of this and the likelihood o getting the venue changed.

>> sometimes litigants like to think that it is impossible bu there is anyone out in the public, any citizen, who has not heard about their case >> typically that turns out to not be true. there actually are, a stunning as it may seem to most of us who are news junkies, people who aren't following this. and, more importantly, there will be people who will show u for jury duty, and i know that -- we'll confirm this from he experience as a judge. there will be people who wil show up when they ar questioned, they will say that they have read some articles i the news, that they ar confident that they can se aside anything that they may have heard, and decide the cas solely based on the evidence that is being expected of them in the courtroom that is the commitment that th judge will extract from jurors so when trump says that this i not there, this trial needs to be moved to another county i new york, what he really i saying is that he wants to b

tried in a place where h believes the population is mor favorably inclined towards him he's made a judgment tha manhattan is not that venue bu the same judge as you pointe out was able to -- that had a case that a similar high level of publicity an nonetheless they were able t find the fair jury, there is n reason to believe that tha cannot be done in the situatio as well. >> you too are wonderful, than you so much for your analysi and in keeping things clear fo us carol lam, joyce, vance ar both former u.s. united states attorneys. next, the billionaire investor george soros has been making a major talking point for th right in the wake of trump's indictment it is not only an entirely false narrative, it is bluntly accused tentative, and i wil explain why, next. explain why, next. to hard-working muscles and joints, for all-day energy.

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the liberal jewish billionaire elite. trump himself posted on trut social on march 21st, callin brag, the george soros back to district attorney. governor ron desantis, trump's 2024 rival, tweeted, in part florida will not assist in a extradition request given th questionable circumstances tha issue with this sort of back t manhattan prosecutor and his political agenda senator ted cruz tweeting, thi left ring soros da has decided to use the power of his office to indict donald trump george soros, a longtime supporter of democrati campaigns says that he does no know alvin bragg they have never met, nor did h contribute money to brett' campaign for da. soros donated to a political action committee that supporte protests - progressive candidate seekin to be prosecutors, including bragg, but soros had no say in

who that pack donated to so the attacks are not onl factually inaccurate, they are rooted in antisemitism this is not new. conspiracy theories about rich jewish overlords who secretl control banks or the media o hollywood or the world have long history in this country and around the globe these types of lies were disseminated during th holocaust to spread hatred o jews and make people believe that jews were conspiring to take over the world. some of the first examples o these dangerous lies date back to a book published around 190 called protocols of the elders of zion. the u.s. holocaust museum call the text quote the mos notorious and widely distributed antisemiti publication of modern times it lies about jews, which hav been repeatedly discredited, continue to circulate today. especially on the internet joining me now is peter barnard, editor of the -- nbc political analyst an professor of political science at the new york school o journalism here in new yor

city peter, thanks for joining us i text on this a few times i the last few nights but i don' think there is enough that you can say about this because literally, every response that from an elected official tha has included the expressio soros-backed distric attorney's and i said to somebody it's dog whistle, they said it's train whistle, it is a it is a blow horn, it is not a train whistle. >> >> hold on, i gotta fix peter's, i, don't personally - >> sorry about that, can you hear me now? >> sorry, my fault this has been going on for a long time. this effort to turn george soros into the face of everything that is threatening to white christians. not just in the united states, but also in hungary, where viktor orban has focused his political campaigns agains george soros and, to be clear, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with george soros his politics but when you turn george soros

into a kind of puppet master who controls everybody on th left, even people like alvin bragg, he has never met what you do is that you play into as you were saying, a very old and racist, and antisemiti tropes because the trope is this black people like alvin bragg aren't smart enough to actually make decisions fo themselves and therefore, jews, who are these evil, sinister, geniuses must be the puppet master is behind them. that is what people said durin the civil rights movement. they said the jewish communist were controlling martin luther king day it is what people said about the african national congres when they said that joe slow vote, the jewish head of the communist party in south africa, was the real power, not nelson mandela. it is both racist an antisemitic, and it is reall disturbing that so man republican politicians are embracing this >> do you think there is som chance, given how common it, was i'm having trouble believing given that the majority of republicans in congress are racist antisemite is there is some chance that

people get into this thing and they hear it and they say, oh, it is a soros back distric attorney, without realizin that they have stepped int both antisemitism and racism >> absolutely, i don't think most of these republicans thin they are antisemitic at all. i think they probably have jewish friends and think tha they are great friends to th jews, but they have become s accustomed to this particula way of talking that they don't realize how dangerous it is. let's remember, the guy that shot those people an pittsburgh was under the similar kind of delusion he believed that george soro and the hidden immigrant aid society was responsible fo bringing these migrant caravan across the border and so h opened file on a synagogue this is dangerous stuff an republicans are not exonerated by the fact that they don' believe themselves to be antisemites. they need to actually lear enough about the stereotypes these trove so they don'

repeat them. >> i sent you a little piece o this and that is from all of the criticisms of brag, it was soros backed, left-wing, socialist, in some case, communist. our good friend, rudy giuliani who knows a thing or two about the manhattan da's office, let's take a listen. >> i this is going to play out for a great the rate - for a once great distric attorney's office. the man's his own man, georg soros's man. and he is a man serving th communists and he is a man that has the lives and bloods of a lot of new yorkers on his hands for the failure to follo results. >> we don't commonly run a lot of rudy giuliani clips on th show because it is all a littl bit nuts but, to the extent, that there is just lots of ways t discredit alvin bragg an george soros in the same sentence it becomes dangerous he is a great district

attorney's office run by a source purchased prosecutor. again, the implications in their continue to sound little bit more than what they are. >> right, firstly, it is deepl insulting to alvin bragg, wh is a very experience prosecutor who has actually wa elected and is entirel credible to make these decisions himself, secondly, i just shows you how absurd this goes back to the protocols tha they designed. these anti-semitic stereotypes are. on the one hand, you are calling soros a communist. and on the one hand, you are calling him an uber capitalist was all this money to bu people in fact, soros is one of the major figures supporting movements for freedom from soviet dominated communist governments in eastern europe, like his native hungry so it is totally coherent, and it really disgraceful that people like you giuliani, wh should know better, again, i you want to disagree with th merits, if you want to disagre with that and changing our

criminal justice policies. but you can have that debate without this kind of antisemitic stereotyping >> you can actually talk about the stuff that you don't lik about what he hasn't supportin the movement but >> a little bit of context is always helpful, it is not a easy as an antisemitic trope peter, good to see you, as always peter beinart is the editor at large at jewish currents i msnbc political analyst. this morning, the stat department spoke to the kremli about the american journalis detained in russia and calle for his immediate release. that is up next, but first democratic senator joh fetterman of pennsylvania spok this morning with abc news for the first time since leaving the hospital he checked himself into walter reed memorial hospital mor than a month ago for clinica depression here is his message. >> you just won the bigges race in the country, and the whole thing about depression i is that, objectively, you ma have won, but depression can absolutely convince you that you app actually lost. and that is exactly what happened and that was the start of

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bakhmut continues. much as it has for months. neither side has made an significant gains whil continuing to suffer tremendou losses of both troops an equipment. the ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy, recen made a trip to personally thin the soldiers who are fightin in bakhmut and yesterday, zelenskyy made trip closer to the capital visiting the town of bucha jus outside of kyiv to commemorate the anniversary of that town's liberation from the inhuma russian occupation the images you are seeing no are tough to watch, but they are far from the worst of it these images are from one year ago, most of us have the image seared into our brain of dea civilians dotting the city streets and the mass graves. we saw some of the worst horrors in the war, which we know including the torture and murder of civilians stealing and pillaging and rape of wome and children, pure, and utter, barbarity. the day before zelenskyy's visit to bucha,, russia once again, assumed the presidenc of the united nations security

council. each member country serves a the head of the council on a rotating basis, and the last time russia, a permanent member, lead the council, that was i february of 2022 the same month that it launche its full-fledged invasion of ukraine. we are also learning more abou the detention of eva gershkovich, the wall street journal reporter who is accuse of espionage in russia nbc news has learned that he may have been trying to report on the wagner group and ho russians felt about th mercenary force which, has bee fighting on russia's behalf in ukraine, notably, in bakhmut the state department says that earlier this morning, th secretary of state, anthon blinken, spoke with his russia counterpart, sergei libra of who called for his immediate release and conveyed that th united states and its grav concern over the situation news first broke tha gershkovich was detained i russia on thursday, it is th first time that russia has detained an american journalis accused of espionage that is since the fall of th soviet union secretary blinken also urges

the release of another citizen who is been wrongfully detaine by russia, paul, whelan wh russia also accuses of espionage. there have been lots of wher were you when moments in the last few years, and former president trump's indictment i now one of them. we are going to put this momen into historical context, next. with the historian, michae beschloss. but, first an update on th aftermath of the deadl tornadoes that tore throug multiple states this weekend the death toll has risen to 30 people in a total. nine of them were killed i mcnairy county, tennessee, located along the states borde with mississippi central arkansas suffere significant damage after the tornadoes touched down near th capital of little rock meanwhile, officials i delaware say that they are waiting for more severe weathe to move to the state befor conducting rescue and recovery operations this is a developing situation we are going to continue t bring you updates through th course of the day. course of the day. >>hey'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it.

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that is going to go down i

history, marking the first eve indictment of a former o current president of the unite states as for what comes next on th disgraced ex, president will donald trump's longtime adviser, david urban, it tells th washington post, quote, he wil do trump he will show up, he will b dignified's. with trump status is the current leading candidate fo 2024 for the republican party, he test is the strength of america's institutions and the rule of law. a little more than two years after his supporters assault t the capital, triggering th largest investigation in the justice department's history let us take stock of the significance of this chapter i american history, is none, other than michael beschloss a friend of the show and nbc news presidential historian wh has got a deep guess of ho profound this moment is in the context of american history. michael, good morning to you this indictment is s significant that you tweeted remember where you were when you heard this news. so tell me what you are making of the moment that we are in >> here we are, i think it is

good moment. and that is not a pro trump or an anti trump comment. it means that the president is going to be lest lawless and renegade that they have been four or at least to have bee allowed to be in for over tw centuries. from everything we know, ali and we will know a lot mor when we see that indictment on tuesday, especially if they ar later indictments in georgia and other places, there is a very good chance that donald trump has been on a crime spre almost with possible crimina offenses before he becam president, while he became president, culminating in an insurrection, and since he became president and he didn't do those things. if we did them because h wanted to be in prison and didn't care about bein convicted, he did it because h thought he could beat th system and one reason that would have led him to think that is tha there was this plot that reall comes from gerald forward, but it has been treated by the hol scriptures, that you can't indict an ex president it was said about nixon in 1974, the country could never live

with such a trauma as that you would see of a president wen on trial well, as a result of that, and impeachments which are toothless for impeachments they were removals, and also, mix of justice departmen ruling that a sitting presiden can't be indicted. but what do you expect about a president like donald trump, who is going to be lawless, an renegade my point is that, at tha moment, on the 30th of march one reason why that is a momen in history is that the rule of law is being restored to the highest office in the world. >> i guess the question, michael, because you are a historian is how do yo evaluate the shift, th tectonic shift that occurs whe donald trump gets indicted o other indictments come, or there is a conviction of any one of these that results in a criminal conviction of a forme president. the fault lines that continu to get deeper and more serious in american politics it is not something we can't consider, right? that we are a deeply polarized

country that probably just became a little more polarized >> yes, but we often have. the prescott decision i think, you would agree with me in 1857, was divisive a lot of people in the south were furious about a lot o people in the north were delighted by it led to a civil war. it does not mean that you shut down a legal process, i woul rather live in a country where there is equal justice and you have prosecutors like davi bragg and the grand jury in ne york city, pursuing justice, then, to have those people terrified that there may b white supremacist gangs in the streets organized crime type threats of assassination, if they go ahead. that is one of the costs o democracy. >> i am curious about donald trump's politicization or th argument that this is politicized prosecution. the argument that it is a witch, hunt the references to georg soros. the references to da brag bein

a left-wing socialist, even communist. all of these efforts t undermine the prosecution. what we have seen is that a lo of that stuff in the absence o what we typically hear fro people who are indicted, and that is that, i'm going to hav my day in court. i am innocent until proven guilty and i will be vindicate by the system. it is strange that they ar leaning into the legitimacy of the prosecution as opposed t the facts of the case. >> donald trump will d anything he feels he has to do to stay out of it. i will guarantee you that. and that means, we have seen i already, threats o assassination, but antisemitic and racist up but -- all sorts of things that we ma not even be seen threate jurors in the same way tha they essentially threatene election officials in a number of states after the 2020 election, trying to bully them into reversing the results o the 2020 election that joe biden won. this is who he is. we are not going to be able to

change that. all i'm telling you is that, unless we reinforce the rule o law, which is what began t happen on the 30th of march, i guarantee you, ali, and i hate to say this, we are going to have potential presidents wh are more lawless and renegad than donald trump. in the future, they may be aided as they cannot be toda by new technology, like a i, and deepfakes, and hostile foreign intelligence services. it might be secretly behin them, and putting a third part candidate who might split th vote all i am saying is, why should our beloved, sacred, democrati system, disarm itself by sayin we can never indict a former president. you look >> i'm going to tal about it on the other side with, you stick around, i'm going to get quick break. michael beschloss, wil continue with, us velshi i right back right back you choose vmware. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation

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beschloss, and d.c. news presidential historian michael, you were talking abou the justice should prevail and we should believe in our institutions and that should trump any concerns about the fact that this is deepening ou political divisions. i spoke to anne applebaum, another historic, in earlier in during the show, and sh said something similar people do agree that this is the right thing to do, and tha democracies are ofte strengthened by these types of things that, said the problem becomes

the argument the problem becomes how do w discuss with people who have bought into the idea that this is a politicized witch hun prosecution i'm done by people who are trying to bring donald trump down now that he i running for president again. what is the best argument to cause people to think abou this a little differently. >> if you want to buy into the witch hunt idea, reach bac into, history who would us arguments like that. mobsters figures of new york who were saying that there is witch hunt against me, i'v been framed, i don't deserve t go to prison even though the actually did or, in the jim crow south, southern, white, supremacist say that, let's, say a local jury is somehow did not give a death penalty to a black man that they wanted to se subjected to execution, ther are cases in that sordid history in which they were literally go into the jail g into the up to the prisoner an

lunch. him is that what we want the term witch hunt in moder times was originated by none other than richard nixon i 1973, saying that this was a unfair witch hunt against hi in the watergate scandal tha he did not deserve anything of >> interestingly, becaus donald trump wrote a letter to nixon in 1993 praising him as great man. he writes, you are a great man i will always have and alway will have the utmost respected admiration for you i am proud to know you there was a photograph tha nixon sent donald trump. it doesn't seem like donal trump ever quite registere that nixon did some things tha were actually bad for th country. >> he may have actuall register that nixon did do bad things and got away with them. nixon, very, well might have gone to prison for conspiracy, for obstruction of justice, fo possibly for perjury

and the prosecutor, lee and, whoriskey at the time, if he had not been pardoned by geral floors so how can you be surprise that donald trump would say, along with nixon, is you can almost read on our democracy which nixon did, and then have a different way of life for 20 years. >> the already know is that started with little spin, member of congress at the time who was on the judiciary committee who voted to impeach richard nixon. and she made the point that, back then, the reason why this didn't go far there is because republicans in congress ha said they will not associate themselves with the wrongdoing of richard nixon they distinction on march 30th of 2023 is that, with th exception of one congressman who i could find, republican don breaking of nebraska, wh said let the justice syste play, out everybody else piled on to the whole, this is politicized which, hunt soros, backed, left-wing, socialist communist stuff. >> and exhibit a of that, ali,

is the speaker of the house of representatives one of the mos important figures in our democracy saying, essentially, has used different language, but the effort against trump t hold him accountable for possible criminal defenses this is a witch hunt the house should withhol against money, they should investigate the da alvin bragg that, we have never seen befor in american history and it i frightening and i hope we neve see it again >> of, course alvin bragg, interestingly, i don't think you respond to, that we wrote letter back saying you have no jurisdiction this matter >> and he was absolutely right >> that said, do you think, at the end of this, whatever come of this thing, convictions o acquittals or all of the other seven cases. do you think that there is som opportunity in the next fe years for there to be reconciliation in this country >> i think so. you look at moments in america history when the country seeme on the brink, even durin

watergate, 1973 and 74 there were people saying tha this country has never been so divided. they said so in 1968 ove vietnam. they said so in the earl 1950's over mccarthyism and th struggle over whether or not t go to war in 1941 agains hitler and the imperia japanese one of the best things about american democracy is that you get shown this enormou resilience and ability t overcome these divisions if th system has allowed to operate, that is all i am asking. >> you give us a little hope when you end that way, it is always a pleasure to talk to nbc news presidential historia and author of numerous books including presidents of war, the epic story, from 1807. it is an important read if you have not had a chance to loo at it yet. that does it for me, thank you for watching, catch me bac here next saturday and sunda morning in our new time slot 10 am to noon. tonight, i'm hosting a special coverage of the indictment o special president -- donald trump, i am joined by m

esteemed colleagues. stay right where you are inside, with jen psaki begin right now. >> twice impeached, now firs indicted the former president prepare for his day in court so, how exactly did we get here, and what comes next? former manhattan distric attorney cyrus vance i breaking his silence on th indictment today, and he i coming up first. plus, house speaker kevi mccarthy promises to hol current mta alvin brag accountable, whatever that means. congressman adam shift joins m with his reaction in just a fe minutes. at the same time, presiden biden is keeping his head down on the trump indictment. i will offer my advice on ho other democrats should handl the politics of this moment. and later, i don't think forme prosecutor andrew weissmann ha slipped in 72 hours, as he continues to break down all of this legal news across msnbc i paid angela visi