trump tower to prepare for tomorrow >> i think the schedule being circulated around, he's going to leave palm beach tomorrow, and go to laguardia and spend a night at trump tower in the morning, possibly quite early, he's going to head to the courthouse at 80 center street in lower manhattan by motorcade, he'll go in, be finger printed, and he may be photographed trump wants a mug shot because, you know, as he has been telling aides, maybe they could put it on a t-shirt, and he could hold himself up and sell t-shirts to supporters the moment they're done, they're going straight back to palm beach for a press conference. >> we will ignore the comparison there. political investigations reporter for the guardian, hugo lowell, thank you, and i'm sure we'll be seeing you this week. we appreciate your reporting "morning joe" starts right now and now a message from

former president trump >> hello, thank you, it's me, hi, i'm the problem. it's me. well, folks, it happened i got indicted or as i spell it, indicated. frankly, it's time i come clean, i broke the law and go quietly to prison. april fool's. >> "saturday night live's" cold open and their take on donald trump's legal troubles the former president will be in court tomorrow for a historic arraignment. we'll take you to the time line and also the security concerns outside the manhattan courthouse meanwhile, the indictment has been a big moneymaker for his 2024 campaign, with millions of dollars in donations, and just a matter of days, it comes as a new challenger is getting into the presidential race and

calling trump to drop out. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe," it is monday, april 3rd. with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post." jackie alemany attorney and contributing columnist for "the washington post," george conway, and nbc news legal analyst, andrew weissmann. good to have you all on board. >> a lot to cover today, but i know people are tuning in this morning, jonathan lemire, to hear our take on the boston red sox opening week, and they give up run after run chris sale finally comes back, he doesn't fall off a bike, break every bone in his body, gives up seven runs. the sox win the weekend, win the series. >> this is clearly the biggest headline we're going to encounter this week. the boston red sox winning two of three at home they scored at least nine runs in all three opening games

that's only third team in history to do that the bats are woken up. the pitching less so hey, look. we'll take it. opening day was dreadful they fell behind big they showed fight to come back you hit it, chris sale was an abomination. we wish he would enter the tour de france and get injured and miss some time but they came back. >> stop it. >> a walk-off win that day and then another win yesterday, two out of three, hope springs e eternal. >> he's a pro. but duvall, just out of his mind, incredible and three, four hours to the south, also had a pretty good weekend. two shutouts, we don't want to talk about them. basketball, i got to say, we are

all at least in my house, we were all heartbroken that boca u had a terrible run down the stretch. i just kept turning to jack, you don't give up this many offensive rebounds and win a game i have never seen anybody give up eight offensive rebounds in four minutes until the second half and win a game, and that's exactly what happened. they just kind of fell apart down the stretch. >> yeah, the two florida schools had wonderful runs but fell short. san diego state hitting a buzzer beater, tremendous game against fau to clinch the championship game we're going to watch it here in a second just stone cold right here nothing but net. san diego state goes on, completing the come back, and defeating florida atlantic and uconn throttled miami, clearly the better team. they're ranked as a four seed.

uconn is better than a four seed and the favorite against san diego state looking for their fifth national title look, this has been a tournament of upsets, of thrilling games. so let's have one more tonight uconn versus san diego state for the championship >> jackie alemany, did you play basketball did i see you playing basketball in college >> i'm washed up >> i'm a washed up player but definitely a caitlin clark fan, so last night was heartbreaking. >> it was. lsu looking great in the tournament and winning it. south carolina bumped up that was a huge shock, right >> not a south carolina fan. i can't contribute to that conversation >> there we go >> look at that. >> my gosh all right, well, we have a lot of news to get to, and jackie

does not want it talk basketball he's heartbroken about last night. >> and chooses her words wisely. i think she's going to have a thing or two to say about the next two stories we start this week with donald trump expected to arrive in new york city later today. this is ahead of the first ever arraignment of a former president. in a series of late night posts on social media yesterday trump announced plans to leave florida for his old home of manhattan at noon today he will then spend the night at trump tower before reportedly surrendering to law enforcement ahead of his first court appearance tomorrow afternoon. although, all of these plans are subject to change, officials familiar with the matter tell nbc news that trump will not be handcuffed put in a holding cell, or have his mug shot taken. >> he's going to be disappointed

with that. >> he'll be finger printed before hearing the charges and leaving the courthouse with his own free will. he will head back to florida where he is to speak publicly about the case the former president faces 30 criminal charges related to documentfraud, connected to a payment he allegedly made to porn star stormy daniels in 2016 to keep her silent about a sexual encounter she claims they had years before now, trump has repeatedly denied the liaison or ordering the payment. although some of his posts over the past years and months have not completely denied it. >> and, andrew, i'm getting more and more impatient, people are talking with great confidence about how strong this case is or

how weak this case is. we have no idea. we have no idea how strong or weak the case is because the indictment is still sealed we won't know until tomorrow, right? >> i hate to be disappointing, but we may not know then we'll have a better idea about legal theories, and because everybody is anticipating it's a so-called speaking indictment, that it's not just bare bones but lays out a number of allegations, we may have a clue as to some of the evidence but the d.a.'s office typically doesn't put an indictment what all of the witnesses have to say, what all of the documents are so we'll have a better sense of the legal theory of the d.a we may have a sense of some additional evidence, but we really won't know all of the evidence, and there are reports of substantial new, but we won't

know for sure. the people who are saying it's strong or the various republicans attacking it as a witch hunt, we don't know. it's the govmernment's burden t amass that evidence. >> new york prosecutors are also reportedly investigating another payment allegedly meant to silence a second woman who claims she had an affair with donald trump according to people familiar with the matter who spoke with the "wall street journal," the manhattan district attorney's office is looking into a deal involving trump and playboy model, karen mcdougal. she claims she was paid $150,000 in 2016 to keep her silent about a previous affair with trump in this incident, however, the alleged deal was struck between

mcdougal and a long time friend of trump's former "national enquirer" publisher, david pecker mcdougal and trump's own former personal attorney michael cohen claims trump and pecker agreed to what's known as a catch and kill deal. as the agreement would have it, pecker would buy the rights to any negative story about trump to prevent it from ever being made public. last week pecker was called in to testify before the manhattan grand jury in thedaniels' case that was after word of the indictment came out, and this was the second time he had been in there here's what lenny davis, attorney to michael cohen, said about this to cnn yesterday. >> you're saying your client, michael cohen gave documentation, evidence that will show that there was hush money paid in an illegal way to

karen mcdougal who was a former playboy model. >> the answer is yes, and so did others involved in the transaction as we know publicly the head of the "national enquirer," mr. pecker was involved in the transaction that michael cohen was forced to plead guilty to even though he didn't pay the money, "national enquirer" paid the money in an arrangement with mr. trump. >> a trump spokesperson told the "wall street journal" there was no crime george conway, we have been hearing this from news sources through the weekend that karen m mcdougal, david pecker may be involved we won't know until the indictment is unsealed it's interesting they brought david pecker in at the end before they came down with the indictment what can you tell us. >> the question of the second woman goes to the intent, the fraudulent intent of the entire scheme to create false records and a false paper trail about

what the nature of the payments were, what they were for whether it can be folded into a charges against the trump organization, i don't know we'll have to see what the facts are, and i agree with andrew that there are things we don't know here. we don't know everything that the prosecution has. we don't know everything about their thinking about how they're going to plead the charges, to make it a felony as opposed to a misdemeanor. a lot of things we don't know and we still won't know even after we see the indictment, which will, as andrew said, be a speaking indictment that's going to allow a lot more evidence than a normal, regular indictment >> and yet, george, members of our former party going out, continue to go crow about how this is a weak charge, this is miscarriage of justice, politicalization, the weaponization of government, et

cetera, et cetera, et cetera, again, they don't know none of us know the extent of this, and it's just so reckless, it may end up, maybe it ended up being exactly what we originally thought this was going to be but again, they're talking about possibly over 30 counts right now. but the exact nature of this, nobody knows, so it's impossible to pass judgment on whether it's a strong indictment or not >> that's absolutely right and i think one of the things about this that's really quite remarkable is how the republican party has put itself in the position of defending a man who paid hush money to a porn star in the waning days of an election, and without compunction, this was a scandal in and of itself, and the reason is because once you start admitting that donald trump does something that's wrong or does

lie and little things that are wrong or slightly bigger things that are wrong, you have to open up everything you know he did that he lied about and that you lied for him about if you're a republican pretended it didn't exist. and we hear a discussion about the republican party, when is it going to come to its senses, the problem is you have millions of americans who allowed themselves to be taken in by this man, and decided to ignore all negative evidence about him and pretend that he was a normal human being, that he was a sane human being, pretend that he was a competent president, pretend he knows how to spell, all of these things, and the reality is he was none of those things and he engaged in self-defection for multiple years, and to admit that is really hard, and that's

the reason why trump will have a strangle hold, i think, on this nomination process. >> so interesting. we have a lot more to talk about pertaining to this, of course, it's going to happen tomorrow, but we are looking at security and preparations for that. also trump's own words ginning up support and action for him. and also the fundraising off of this which has been quite successful we'll have that coming up. there's another big story breaking over the weekend. the justice department and fbi investigators have accumulated fresh evidence pointing to possible obstruction by former president donald trump in the investigation into top secret documents found at mar-a-lago. people familiar with the matter tell "the washington post. according to the post, the additional evidence comes as investigators have used e-mails, text messages from a former trump aide to help understand key moments last year the post

continues. federal investigators have gathered new and significant evidence that after the subpoena was delivered, trump looked through the contents of some of the boxes of documents in his home, apparently out of a desire to keep certain things in his possession investigators now suspect based on witness statements, security camera footage, and other documentary evidence that boxes included classified material were removed from a mar-a-lago storage area after the subpoena was served and that trump personally examined at least some of those boxes. the new details highlight the degree in which special counsel jack smith's investigation is focusing on whether the former president took or directed actions to impede government efforts for the sensitive

records found at trump's florida home and private club. in a statement to the paper, a trump spokesperson wrote in part that the investigation has no basis in fact or law, and, joe, i have seen trump interviewed. it's laughable, it's not funny, i have a right to take stuff it's just in his mind, he doesn't apply the law to himself. >> he said if he even thought about it, if he thought about it, he could declassify documents with his superpowers as former president. jackie alemany, you look at "the washington post" report, and suddenly, you realize they've got e-mails, correspondence, they have somebody on the inside that's been cooperating, it seems, with the federal government, and it looks, at least, from this story, like, jack smith.

>> my colleagues reported that jack smith and his team of investigators were methodically trying to build this case and show some of the potential intent and motivation behind this obstruction, which is really going to be key to bringing these charges but there were a few different streams that ultimately led investigators to finding out this new piece of evidence that trump himself went in, rummaged through some of these boxes of documents, and cherry picked things he wanted to keep, which included text messages and e-mails obtained from one of his top aides earlier this year who appeared before the grand jury and had interviews with fbi and special counsel investigators, along with the top military aide who worked with him at the white house and came down with him to mar-a-lago and we reported at the end of

last year, walt testified that trump personally instructed him to move these boxes, information that was corroborated by some of the surveillance footage that was also obtained by the special counsel's office that had, you know, that showed this storage room, people moving in and out of it before and after the subpoena was issued for that inflames search warrant investigated by the fbi. >> we talked about the fact that donald trump was averting everybody's eyes to manhattan, most likely, our belief, most likely because it was the least serious charge, the charge prosecutors are going to have a hard time proving. this obstruction case seems, if we're going to judge from outside the courthouse, we're going to judge not being in on the case and just looking at the

four corners o. law. this case, this obstruction case is already stacked up badly against donald trump after the new reporting this weekend, and the information on how they're using those security cameras, how they're using people on the inside, using their e-mails, using their communications, knowing there's donald trump rummaging through the classified documents after the justice department asked to get them back. it's -- this looks of all the indictments, this one looks like it may be the most serious for donald trump, and the hardest to wiggle around. >> one of trump's tried and true strategies is to detract and deflect. he's posting about his in

itinerary. he can probably use to his political advantage. it's an old case, the others on the horizon loom to be far more serious, we know the january 6th probe continues, and then there's mar-a-lago and we have certainly republicans trying to say, look, joe biden was vice president, and he had classified documents he shouldn't have or mike pence did too. okay, that's true. but it's all about intent and cooperation. and both of those men, biden and pence, as soon as these -- first of all, there's no suggestion these documents were taken deliberately, and once they were discovered, they cooperated with doj in returning them. trump has done the opposite. there is a sense here that he was involved in packing some of these or at least saying i would like to have items with me at mar-a-lago, and certainly as this reporting points out, he has taken many steps to obstruct it and deny returning them andrew weissmann, let's talk about the legal aspect we can set aside the politics,

the narrative we talked about in this case, if charges in the future in terms of the legality of this, in your estimation does this make an obstruct charge that much more likely? >> there are two ways in which i think there are going to be obstruction charges, as cyou noted with respect to mar-a-lago, it's important that you already have a federal magistrate who found probable cause that there was obstruction. remember, in the search, it included evidence of obstruction, the allegation by the government in the search warrant, and that was approved by the magistrate, for all the reasons mika outlined, which was the actions of the former president after receiving a subpoena from the department of justice, so i agree with joe this could be a game over, and the republicans who are following the former president

in the manhattan case could just go over the cliff when and if we see charges in florida that are really quite strong based on what we know now and then in manhattan, there could be obstruction charges if the former president continues doing what he has been doing this last week, including last night, and is inciting violence. it will be very interesting to see both the district attorney's reaction and whether that leads to additional charges because those things can be charged as additional crimes, and what many people may view as the least serious of the criminal investigations may be quite serious in manhattan as well and the judge can impose significant restrictions on what donald trump says and does if he continues this behavior.

>> george conway, we saw the news breaking this weekend about the documents case, more information on just how donald trump could have committed acts of obstruction a ruling last week that it was likely that donald trump and his attorney committed a crime and that the attorney/client privilege was used in the commission of a crime, therefore they were going to take a highly unusual step of piercing the veil of the attorney/client relationship do you suspect that we've now entered into a phase that now that we've had this first indictment, you've got all of these other cases moving forward, the georgia case moving forward, i expect the pace will be quickening fairly soon, that this is just the new sort of world that we are in, the news cycle where evidence of trump crimes, trump indictments are going to start moving at a faster pace given, again, just

this weekend, everybody is looking at manhattan, but we hear about, again, obstruction out of mar-a-lago. we know georgia news is coming all of these things are moving faster >> i absolutely agree with that. legal processes take time. particularly in white collar cases where you don't necessarily have video of that they apparently have video here of -- these things take a lot of time and now all of these things that he has planted, these problematic things that he did to himself, donald trump, are now coming home to roost, and the question is how he deals with that. i don't think he's capable of dealing with it in a rational manner i think his only play he knows how to engage in is to attack and cement violence on the way he did on january 6th. that's the scary thing about this the arc of this story is clear

he is going to take himself down he will have taken himself down. only a genius like him could have paid $130,000 to a porn star who didn't stay hushed and get himself indicted for it. who else could possibly have done that. he's got that and just so much more i mean, the mar-a-lago documents case is one-third of what jackie and her colleagues reported is true, they got them on tape in georgia with raftens perger, appa - raffensperger, we'll be back here talking about a civil case and he's not going to do well in that case. i don't know if he's going to be able to show up and testify because this is a man who could not withstand five minutes of cross-examination about what's true, what's not true, who's lying, what do you lie about

other people, are other people lying about you. if you just cross-examination of him, he would fall apart both instantaneously that's why his own lawyers wouldn't let him talk to mueller. because they knew he would immediately trip himself up. >> it will be interesting, the question is i wonder during his arraignment if there's any constrains that the judge could put on him in terms of what he's allowed to say he has this event he's planning and i'm sure it's going to be quite a fundraiser, and quite a way to, if trump's past behavior proves to be correct, he'll be ginning up support and all sorts of other things, and constraints

on disinformation or inciting violence i don't know. >> the thing is, i talked before about the political arena and then you've got the legal arena, and in the political arena, anything goes. you have rights that are as expansive as any free speech rights that we have, but when you suddenly walk into a courtroom and you're part of a courtroom proceeding, obviously a judge has more power >> can a judge say, i don't want you to talk about this >> andrew weissmann, let's remove politics from this, let's remove trump from this and let's talk about the threats that the attacks against the legal system, i mean, i can tell you when i was a young lawyer in northwest florida, i was intim

daylight -- intimidated enough by the state court judges, but i wanted to stay out of federal court anybody who's watching, conservative, liberal, understand if i had said the sort of things about prosecutors, about the court system, about things being rigged or if you had said the sort of thing or if our defendant had said the sort of thing a how quickly a judge woumd come down. i mean, at least the federal judges that i knew, and by the way, i'm thinking about roger vincent who passed away, good friend of mine, a federal judge in pensacola, florida, thinking about him and his family right now, but hey, those federal judges, man, they would buried

under a penitentiary if you were going around threatening prosecutors, threatening judges and saying that the system was rigged, it just -- and so that's why when people say this is tilted against trump, if judges and everybody else are giving this guy a lot more space than they would give any other lawyer, any other prosecutor, any other defendant. >> you're totally right, and it's a trap that we getreat him with more leniency than anybody else what can a judge do. there are two things a judge will be looking at one is just sort of polluting the information stream you're not really supposed to be doing things now once you are arraigned that improperly

influence the jury pool. you're not supposed to be talking about the case you're trying to keep a fair jury pool. that's going to be incredibly difficult. the other that is much more serious in the short-term is this idea of potential violence, and that's one where i wouldn't be surprised tomorrow if judge merchan who is very much like all accounts the federal judges that you're talking about a no nonsense judge who keeps a tight rein on hi courtroom it will be very interesting to see what he says, not just because he's attacked the judge already but because of the really horrific things he has said with respect to the prosecutor, the prosecutor's family those are things that it's very hard to imagine the judge isn't going to have some words to the

defendant, meaning donald trump about that particular conduct. that can lead to additional charges and all sorts of restrictions, you can be confident that donald trump's defense lawyers are going to be very focused on that, and as was mentioned, donald trump because he has such an inability to control himself may find himself in a whole lot of legal hot water as he tries to foment his base politically >> nbc news legal analyst andrew weissmann, thank you, and george conway, thank you as well. we appreciate your both being on this morning and still ahead on "morning joe," we'll get a live report from palm beach as former president trump prepares to long beach his mar-a-lago estate for manhattan today. plus, a look at how new york police and other law enforcement agencies across the country are preparing for potential protests ahead of donald trump's arraignment. also ahead, what the former president is saying about russian president vladimir

putin. possibly taking over ukraine and former arkansas governor asa hutchinson announces he's jumping into the 2024 gop white house race and says donald trump should drop out. plus, deadly tornadoes, another round cause catastrophic damage across parts of the midwest, south and mid atlantic over the weekend we'll go live to one area of indiana where the severe weather turned deadly. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back.

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in terms of the death toll tornados steam rolled through a dozen states destroying homes and entire neighborhoods, joining us from sullivan, indiana, nbc news correspondent, jesse kirsch, what's the latest. >> reporter: you can see behind me here, debris, and if you can imagine it's dark right now, it goes on block after block here in sullivan, indiana, about 90 minutes from downtown indianapolis this is one of the harder hit communities in this state, replicating things we have seen across several parts of the country, totally across the u.s. we have 32 confirmed deaths from tornadoes over the weekend including three in this community where i am late yesterday, the officials said the search for missing persons is complete, everyone is accounted for. unfortunately three people have been found to be dead here according to officials including a woman in her early 60s and her son in his late 30s. now there's a call for volunteers here, and as this

clean up goes on amid all of these piles of debris, we have seen splintered wood, sheered off trees, shattered glass, homes destroyed in this community again and again. there's a concern about weather here, expected tomorrow. we spoke with a man, hearing the wind howling overhead. here's part of what he described when he came out minutes later >> i had a flashlight, and it looked like it rolled over a cliff, i thought, well, i got to get out of here. >> reporter: when you look at all of this now, do you recognize this >> no, it's not my neighborhood. i always had a nice neighborhood, really good neighbors. we're good neighbors down here, and i don't recognize this. >> reporter: 30 homes and

businesses, just behind mehere badly damaged, some appear to be completely gone. he planted a flag that was his home previously, a reminder that this community is still here mika. >> nbc's jesse kirsch, thank you for that report. we appreciate it. coming up, a look at the stories making front page headlines across the country including the push to create a new no fly list for unruly air travelers. plus, one of our next guests says republicans are missing an obvious opportunity to free themselves from the former president. we'll explain that ahead on "morning joe." we don't even need an eight-time all-star to tell you about it. wait what? get it before it's gone on the subway app!

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44 past the hour, a live look at the white house, and msnbc contributor, mike barnicle

joins us now good to have you on board. >> quite a weekend for the red sox, they got some bats. >> huge. >> oh, yes >> just huge. >> it begins. >> you know, thursday, opening day, that was tough. what a weekend, what a weekend jumped right out of my chair when adam duval hit that home run. >> everyone did. >> just crazy. >> we have all been behind chaim bloom from the very beginning. this is the guy. >> you said that every day >> no doubt about it so, lemire, talking about jack smith, and he's moving, let's just say with confidence and swiftly. i don't know, i would just never like to be on the side of jack smith in anything. you look at, first of all, this is him as a judge in the hague,

and i'm sorry, this looks like it's out of some other star wars deal, please, hammer don't hurt him. that guy looks tough, and apparently he is moving very swiftly. >> it's sort of an imperial guard robe he's wearing there. i find deeply intimidating, in fact, we have never seen a picture of him smiling, just going to put that out there. it is something that this is where the real concern is. people close to the former president and i have been talking to all week long, we have had mixed reporting, shall we say, about donald trump's mood in terms of, you know, his arraignment tomorrow in manhattan. some people say he's looking forward to it, think it's going to be good for his political cause. others say he's scared to death, nervous about the legal peril, thinking in the short-term this could be beneficial. as we note, a different story come 2024. there's no excitement about

these other cases. there's much more concern about georgia and the election interference and the january 6th and now mar-a-lago documents it does seem like that case in particular is fast tracking, moving its way up, and there's hardly a good explanation that trump can provide that doesn't seem really damaging to him. >> and he does seem like such an intimidating presence, a judge that slapped the gag order on jackie alemany, you will not talk about women's hoops on "morning joe," or else, jackie, right. so jackie, what position did you play in college? >> i was what they call a defensive specialist i was a 2-3-4, depending on the year and the amount of muscle milk i was drinking. >> nice, nice. >> i have no sympathy for south carolina, so i just, you know, i had to take a pass on that

>> ye shall not speak of the gamecocks. >> during an appearance on fox news, former president donald trump was asked to respond oto a lightning style round of questioning. >> we missed this, by the way, last week. >> i want to say it scrolled by me on twitter, and sometimes one becomes so desensitized to all the different ways that he is antidemocratic and pro-fascist, you just let it pass we caught it here's what former president trump said about vladimir putin and the war in ukraine. >> short sentence narratives, whatever comes to your mind, putin. >> well, i'm going to have to go a little short but i got along with him great

had i been president, he would have been much better off because he wouldn't have gone into ukraine, but ultimately he's going to take over all of ukraine. >> again, first of all, mike, there is not a military analyst, a political analyst, a foreign policy analyst. >> a nato analyst. >> on the face of the earth that thinks vladimir putin is going to take over all of ukraine. this is, again, the same guy it's really -- it's shocking, not surprising this is the same guy who said how brilliant vladimir putin was for starting a war, that he was genius, that he was savvy for starting a war that has ravaged his country, killed over 100,000 of his troops, completely weaned europe off of all russian energy

needs. it's been devastating for his economy. i talked to world leaders to opec people, leaders in opec nations who say this guy is only, you know, some more variants in the oil markets and the energy markets away from his entire economy collapsing. i was trying to figure out the best way to say that but they are a gas station, and they're a gas station about to go bankrupt in oil prices go down even more over the next couple of months they are really in deep trouble. trump is saying he's brilliant, he likes him, they get along well, he's savvy, and they're going to take over all of ukraine. nobody, nobody in the world is saying that but vladimir putin,

l his lackeys and donald trump. >> joe, it is hard to measure the danger and the damage that donald trump presents on a daily basis. if you're sitting in paris or berlin or london or any other capital in the world around the globe where you measure democracy with a large d not a small d, you're worried because you don't know what's on the horizon. you don't know what america is going to do in 2024. you don't know what part this man might play in the future of our democracy. and so if you're thinking about planning ahead, you can't plan ahead because of the danger and the damage he represents every time he opens his mouth, every single time. >> and it was that same interview with sean hannity where hannity tried to lead trump quote to the right answer about those documents, he would never take those documents, trump's like, i have the right

to he never quite said that jackie, there aren't many areas where republicans are willing to criticize donald trump, but one is the relationship with vladimir putin, outside of a small minority of the republican party, even some of trump's fiercest allies say, look, we have to knock this out we need to support ukraine, but yet he keeps doing it. you know, what do we anticipate here from republicans in the week ahead with inflammatory comments like this, but also with the indictment coming more lock stop support or do we think we'll hear shades of gray? >> i think it's interesting that republicans, at least some of them, hard liners that dominate the house gop conference have seized on trump's putin comments to sort of use that to talk about their isolationist view, how we shouldn't be spending money -- all of this money in ukraine, it should be dedicated towards the u.s. of course that is like largely contradictory to the rhetoric on china and the committee on china that house speaker kevin

mccarthy has really put so much emphasis on as he sort of tries to forge ahead without being distracted by the constant distractions that trump is throwing at republicans, you know, on a daily basis but i think it actually has been pretty interesting at least in the lead up to this arraignment tomorrow that we haven't heard house judiciary chairman jim jordan come out and say we're subpoenaing alvin bragg. we haven't heard at least as robust a defense as we at least anticipated, yes, people have sort of attacked bragg, but there hasn't been a huge defense of trump explicitly. i think there is a little bit of a wait and see here, what the indictment says. it's obviously sealed. trump's lawyers haven't seen it. they're seeing it for the first time tomorrow. we'll see how many details come out of it. if there are really damaging new pieces of information in there, we could see republicans sort

of continue with the approach they're taking you, which is, again, using bragg as the boogeyman and not doing a full embrace of trump. >> i'll be looking for any new details in the indictment, what it spells out, but also directives from the judge. that will be interesting jackie, thank you so much for being on this morning. and we're back in just a moment with the morning papers. on beh. let me tell you about the greatest roster ever assembled. the monster, the outlaw... and you can't forget about the boss. sometimes- you just want to eat your heroes. the subway series. the greatest menu of all time. we must finally hold social media companies accountable. it's time to pass bipartisan legislation to stop big tech from collecting personal data on our kids and teenagers online. ban targeted advertising to children. for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are positive

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the transportation security administration would have to create and manage the list the legislation has bipartisan support. the tennessean has a front page feature on a push to make schools safer. here's how republican governor bill lee is expected to propose increasing funding for security measures. lee also wants to place an armed guard at every public school >> is this not the same governor, though, mike barnicle, that signed a law that allows people to carry long rifles. >> it is, indeed. >> on the outside of their body. so if somebody is walking up with an ar-15 to a school, nobody has the right to stop them because they have the legal right to carry around an ar-15 on the outside of their body wherever they go because of this governor >> it is indeed, joe, and i'm not sure, but i'm fairly certain that it's also an open carry

state, tennessee. >> yep. >> so you can walk around, you know, with your glock, with your luger. whatever you want to walk around with that's what we're talking about here it's crazy, crazy. >> we're also talking about permitless carry, and i brought this up a good bit as a gun owner. i applied for a carry permit in florida, waited a really long time to get it, about a year, which i thought was kind of crazy, but i waited a year i went through a training course i did all the things the state reasonably asked gun owners to do if they're going to carry, and it's concealed carry but these states, as we see more and more people dying from guns, and we get to a point where more children are dying from guns than anything else, there's a race to the bottom when it comes to gun safety, whether it's

tennessee, whether it's in florida, wherever it is, where they're pushing permitless, let me ask you, mike, why does it make sense, even if you're like me and you're a gun owner and you believe people have the right to carry and bear arms, why does it make sense to weaken gun safety laws and tell people, you know what, you can carry in public wherever you go you can carry and you don't have to get a permit for it and you don't have to even train for it >> well, it's the same simplistic thinking, joe, that has a lot of people, too many people suggesting that one of the answers to this is to have teachers carrying guns in classrooms arm the teachers. >> what a nightmare. what happens you have a hot head teacher that has a gun, makes a bad move. it's numbers listen, mike, the reality is data shows this everywhere, states that have more guns have

more people dying from guns. can you imagine the number of deaths that would skyrocket if we started arming teachers i mean, they're not qualified. they're not qualified. just handing out, oh, here's your books here are your supplies, here's your gun it's asinine thinking, the more guns people have, the more deaths from guns that's data. that's reality and going against that is just stupid >> if you want to witness one of the cruellest changes in our country over the last, i don't care, 50 or 100 years, take a morning off, joe, get in your car and follow a school bus, an elementary school bus, and look at the parents as they watch their kids board the bus

because you know some of them, maybe most of them are thinking, oh, god, please let my child return home safely from elementary school, from elementary school. >> mike, when you and i sent our kids to elementary school, we were concerned about how they were doing in class. we wanted to make sure that, you know, they didn't have problems with friends, all of that, and now -- >> so different. >> i talk to young parents, and they all have this concern it's front of mind and it's front of mind in the kids' mind and the kid have nightmares. they're concerned. they have all of these active shooter drills it's just insanity, and again, you have governors like lee in tennessee that makes it more permissive, takes away more gun safety laws to keep the people

of tennessee safe, to keep people and children in classrooms safe, and now he's saying, oh, look what i'm going to do to make schools safer. no, it doesn't work. >> no. no >> you know, the headline in the tennessean says, you know, lee moves to make schools safer. i would argue that's -- i'm not sure it's a move to make schools safer. >> it's misleading. >> i feel like everybody is thinking in tennessee a little bit is too focused on whether or not a security guard can stop a gunman overall, the safety of children is debatable let's put it that way. >> listen, you've seen it in uvalde, you saw it in tennessee. you've seen it in all of these school shootings they're coming in with ar-15s. a security guard in a school is not going to stop someone with an ar-15

>> look at just the horrific nightmarish video from what happened at parkland. >> exactly, the video from the latest in tennessee. >> and in tennessee. let me finish papers real quick, in north carolina, the charlotte observer leads with a bill to lower the state's drunk driving threshold. right now drivers can be charged with a dui if their blood alcohol level is above .08%. lawmakers are looking to lower the legal limit to .05%. this could help stop impaired driving and save lives the kalamazoo gazette reports michigan is one step closer to dropping the letter grading system used to rate a school's performance. house lawmakers approved a measure that would give public schools an index value ranging from 0 to 100 instead of a through f grading scale that's currently used for annual reviews. this ranking looks at things

like student growth, proficiency and graduation rates some, however, say it's confusing and that letter grades are easier for parents to understand >> it's the top of the second hour of "morning joe," thank you so much for being with us. i want to -- mike, i want to talk to you and just go around the table, leslie stahl last night interviewed marjorie taylor greene, and it's going about as well for leslie stahl on twitter as you would expect you know, 60 minutes, other news outlets have long interviewed people with whom editorially they severely disagree i'm reading -- >> world leaders world leaders who hold horrific views. norm wrote, i've known lesley

stahl for many years she's been a great journalist, but this is a disgraceful, cringe worthy performance. shameful for her jon harwood, i respect lesley stahl and 60 minutes but airing this is garbage. i could go down the list so i ask this, again, knowing lesley, liking her, respecting her, she's an extraordinary journalist, and she has been for a long time, i'm just curious, what are your thoughts about -- >> putting her on 60 minutes. >> putting marjorie taylor greene on 60 minutes this is not a leading question this is an important debate to have you have a woman who's considered the second most important person in the house of representatives because kevin mccarthy has made her that she's a person that helped kevin mccarthy become speaker, and i'm sure 60 minutes and lesley stahl

are thinking if she's that powerful, americans need to know what she thinks, and others say she should not have been given that platform. >> i have not seen the interview. i have enormous respect for lesley who i have known for many years. i would be in favor of having her on, marjorie taylor greene to hear her, to have people listen to what she's saying, to listen to how deeply sick she is, what a distorted view of america she has, what a distorted view of who we are that she has i would want people to have that information so that they could make a judgment on her the larger issue, i would think, and this is going to be for historians is our obsession, our media obsession with people like this, people like marjorie taylor greene. people like donald trump, and our obsession with him is decades old, and look where it's brought us and -- but still, the bottom line is i want that information out there and available to the

public so they can listen to it, so they can measure it some people are going to say, oh, yeah, she's great. a large number of people the majority of people are going to listen to what she says and say she's mentally ill and deeply dangerous >> jonathan lemire, donald trump is right now early on certainly seems likely to be the republican nominee reporters are going to be interviewing donald trump. donald trump has talked about terminating the constitution donald trump led a riot on january 6th, inspired a riot on january 6th. donald trump praises the people who beat the hell out of cops, and defecated on the capital and tried to overturn an election. we're going to be interviewing donald trump, so, you know, we never even mentioned marjorie

taylor greene's name on the show when she was a back bencher. i wasn't going to give anybody oxygen for saying crazy things if they weren't relevant she's now relevant just like donald trump is relevant, so i guess we could all like avert our eyes and pretend she's not there, but she is there. and if she is there and she's the second most powerful republican in the house, do we not need to hear from her? >> the trump comparison is a good one whether it's on this show or in my reporting or even tweeting, if i'm tweeting something donald trump says or add vivising the he's going to have a news conference you have a deluge of people saying, don't give him oxygen. if we ignore him he's not going away we don't want to dance to his tune we have to do it responsibly and that's what we're trying to do each and every day. the media has gotten better at this there were real mistakes made in the 2015, 2016 campaign, giving him unfettered air time with no

fact checking, no context provided we have fell short we have gotten better. are we perfect, no but dramatic improvements about his time in office where he would be not taking realtime there would be fact checking provided, context provided, analysis provided, and if we were airing a speech, the chyron at the bottom, an anchor would dip in and out same with the written word, the necessary context to call him out on his lies, to say what he is doing, and the same principle applies here for this congresswoman, who now is, whether people like it or not, an extremely influential voice in the republican party. it is worth hearing from her we need to do it in a smart, contextual way. >> people need to know people need to know. and if she thinks, we'll play you a clip why don't we play a clip lesley tried to talk policy, here's an example of that.

>> janet yellen, treasury secretary says if we don't raise the debt ceiling that this country will be thrown into an economic and financial catastrophe. and so i'm asking you if you're willing to risk that >> you know what, an economic catastrophe, is, again, the people that have spent $31 trillion that forced this situation to happen. >> well, wait a minute, trump is as much responsible for anybody -- >> i said everybody, republicans, democrats, it was all before i got theory. >> would you be willing to vote for compromise in other words, raise some taxes? >> i don't think we have a revenue problem in washington. we have a spending problem >> you know something, that's glib that's glib. what does that mean? the two sides have to come together and hammer it out >> cut spending. both sides need to cut spending. >> where do you want to cut it >> covid bail out money and a

lot of green energy spending. >> are you willing to let us go into default >> no, i have always said i wouldn't do that. >> so would you compromise >> it depends. >> on taxes. >> no, i'm not raising taxes >> so much of that is mainstream republican, including the part where you talk about a $31 trillion national debt and you don't primarily raise donald trump who raised the debt more than, you know, presidents of the first 210 years of this republic but that's mainstream republican, but of course it went off the tracks right here >> the democrats are a party of pedophiles. >> i would definitely say so they support grooming children. >> they are not pedophiles why would you say that >> democrats support -- even joe biden, the president himself, supports children being

sexualized and having transgender surgeries, sexualizing children is what pedophiles do to children. >> wow okay >> i think it's important. this is what they do at 60 minutes. they bring, you know, a person like this, a foreign leader. they go into situations where they ask the questions and show their viewers what they're dealing with and i think she did an exceptional job, as usual. just because -- and, you know, i take issue with those tweets and with both of those people, if they sat down with marjorie taylor greene could they do it as well? because it should be done. we do need to cover these people we need to show all sides of the story, democrats, republicans, people on the far right, trumpers some would argue don't

represent the true conservative republican party and movement. >> right >> and i don't understand what she did wrong? she did an interview with marjorie taylor greene. >> so, mike barnicle, of course, and we talked about it here an awful lot. marjorie taylor greene has said horrific things. i think she is a sign of just how badly things have gone, but if i'm not mistaken, "60 minutes" interviewed charles manson, and "60 minutes" has interviewed one terrible person after another terrible person, and so if they interview charles manson, they can interview a member of congress and if you don't want to watch, you can do what mika and i did and not watch until this morning, but if you want to watch, you can watch

and actually understand some of the craziness that has infected the republican party, and that just may be good to understand what american democracy is up against. >> i would submit there's a larger story here in the appearance of this totally unhinged woman and the larger story is that she represents a lot of today's republican party, and many members of that party, specifically in the house of representatives are probably afraid of her because of what she says, when she says it, and she does not care what she says. so she's put her stamp on one of the two major parties, two major political parties in this country, and that stamp right now is indelible i think that's the larger story, and i'm glad she was on 60 minutes so more people could get an idea of who she is. basically implying, inferring that the president of the united

states, one of the most normal, honorable human beings you will ever meet regardless of your politics is a pedophile favorite i mean, it is absolutely obscene, and she represents the obscenity. >> yeah, so and i want to just -- i have been searching. i saw 60 minutes and charles manson, i see "60 minutes" australia. i'm also seeing right now that charlie rose actually interviewed manson in '86 in a jailhouse interview for cbs. so we'll check and see to make sure. >> let's see where mike wallace has gone in all of his interviews >> it is what they do. >> this is the number one news show i think they do a great job at it, and i think they brought -- some might say they brought the concerns that marjorie taylor

greene raises to an audience that perhaps needs to see it, probably hasn't had a full sense of exactly how her mind works. >> and, by the way, if anybody thinks that one of the leading republicans in the house of representatives telling america on a top rated news show that she believes joe biden is a pedophile, if you think that helps republicans in the next election in wisconsin, in michigan, in pennsylvania, in georgia, in arizona, in every single swing state, even in the wisconsin supreme court case tomorrow, if you don't think that doesn't further tarnish the republican image nationwide, up and down the ballot, well, you don't know politics, so i think sunlight is the best disinfectant. >> today marks the start of an unprecedented week in u.s. history. donald trump will travel to new york this afternoon ahead of his

scheduled court appearance tomorrow when he will become the first former president to be arraigned on criminal charges. let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian ken, what more can we expect >> mika, we're expecting former president donald trump to at some point fly from mar-a-lago where he is now to new york where he'll spend the night at trump tower, and then on tuesday we expect him to drive in his motorcade sometime in the early afternoon, around 1:00 p.m., from trump tower downtown to the manhattan district attorney's office where he'll turn himself in and he will go through some of the steps that a normal criminal defendant would go through. there's nothing normal about this process he'll be followed at all times by his secret service detail he will be, we're told, he will be finger printed, will have a dna swab taken it's unclear whether he'll get a mug shot taken, and also up in

the air is whether he'll be handcuffed as a normal defendant, criminal defendant would be then we're told he'll be held in an interview room, not a jail cell, until the arraignment begins his first appearance in front of the judge in this case, and at that point, mika, the indictment will be unsealed and we will all get to see the details and the specificity of these criminal charges. >> and ken we now now that at least tentatively, the former president is expected to fly back after that and give a news conference or statement at mar-a-lago you did a great job of painting the picture of inside the courthouse what is going on outside we know there will be a lot of security what is the early sense in terms of -- and we know there will be media presence there what's the early sense in terms of pro and anti-trump forces, each potentially demonstrating near the courthouse? >> we're hearing there are demonstrations expected. nypd officers have been told to be ready to deploy for crowd

control around the courthouse, but my sources are saying there aren't the kind of signs that in the air before january 6th in new york city, trying to do something drastic around the courthouse the nypd is far more prepared than the capitol police were on january 6th, but there's no -- there's not intelligence as far as i understand that suggests there will be violence n nonetheless, nypd and federal security forces are preparing for any possibility. >> all right nbc's ken dilanian, thank you so much and just really quickly, 60 minutes, alex sent me some 60 minutes interviews in 1979, mike wallace interviewed ayatollah khomeini in '78, mike wallace interviewed

roman polanski jack kavorkian ed bradley interviewed timothy mcveigh, the oklahoma city bomber this is something that has happened in the past, and i suspect if you have the second most important person in the house of representatives, the person who made kevin mccarthy speaker of the house probably need to know just how extreme her views are. >> i wouldn't be so triggered honestly let's bring in staff writer at the atlantic, mike leibovich >> he triggers me. >> the most controversial person we have on our show, but we do it. >> i push through it, author of the recent book entitled "thank you for your servitude, donald trump's washington and the price of submission", and mark, you have a new piece in the atlantic, entitled "trump's republicans rivals are missing

an obvious opportunity." you argue now san ideal moment for republicans to free themselves from the former president but they are not exactly taking advantage of it you write in part, quote, the popular assumption among republicans that trump's indictment strengthens him, politically shows how cowed they all still are. yes, trump's indictment is unprecedented as his defenders keep reminding us, but this is not necessarily flattering to the former president, they perceive him to be invulnerable and he behaves as such in their continued awe, they see their only choice as continued capitulation in some long ago republican universe, there would, in fact, be a dash to condemn the former president's words and conduct. this is not who we are, some might say or try to claim. sure, there could be some old

fashioned political aopportunis involved here, it wouldn't be the first time, but what politician wouldn't seize such an opening to score points instead, the response from the gop's punitive leaders was as predictable as the indictment news itself. >> and that is a great point what politician wouldn't seize this motel i have been wondering why a strong politician hasn't for quite some time seized the opportunity. >> this and other cases against him! we heard republicans had a chance to make a break during impeachment, we heard they had a chance after january 6th we heard they had a chance to take a break after donald trump said he wanted to terminate the constitution after his further calls for political violence, after the baseball bat up against the head of alvin bragg and now the coming indictment. mark, they don't want to make a break. they like this guy, and they like him so much that they would

rather lose with him as they've done for six years in a row, than win with somebody else. why? >> if i feel, i mean, the disti -- first of all, i mean, the distinction is, they don't love this guy, they're terrified of this guy this is the dynamic we saw play out in 2015 and 2016, which is republicans basically just hoping that they could just close their eyes and cover their ears and the problem will go away someone else will take care of the problem for them, whether it's bob mueller or in this case prosecutors. i mean, essentially they are just not participating in this, and if we've seen one thing over and over again, it's just that donald trump thrives in any kind of vacuum of authority donald trump, if no one is going to stop him from doing anything, he's going to do it. and look, i mean, deference is a drug for him this is what keeps him as the punitive head of this republican

party. and, look, i can't believe we're seeing another presidential cycle where they're just going to let him have it, and sort of let the damage play out for all of us to see >> they are. they really are, and i'll question your point, they're hoping someone else will take care of it, because it appears the law might be doing that. we will see the indictment tomorrow and see exactly what's in it, and see what happens after with the other cases, including the documents case, which appears to be heating up with the "washington post" reporting that there's new evidence of obstruction. but, even with an indictment, you have these republicans going full on in defense of trump, instead of just saying the safe thing, which would be, why don't we wait and see what the indictment has they won't even say that >> right i mean, typically in these situations, i mean, the responsible thing for any politician or the opposition certainly even to say is just

sort of, look, this is an ongoing criminal matter. this is an investigation, i don't comment on that. and, you know, again, that's somewhat disingenuous, in the background they are just sort of hoping that the party that they're talking about does damage to himself, and i guess what's the old political maxim, you just get out of the way if your opponent is imploding on his or her own, which could be what's going on here i mean, look, it's a very very -- i mean, this is not in a normal situation a good predicament for donald trump to be in. it is not good for a politician to be indicted again, in a normal world, this is not a controversial statement. but donald trump, i mean, has accomplished a smooth martyr act at this point, he can be made a victim at this point and he uses these things to his advantage in the absence of anyone saying anything to the

contrary. >> there's a pretty sprawling list of potential republican challengers to trump for 2024. so far, only two of them have really come out and condemned him, suggesting he should drop out. former new jersey governor chris christie, and asa hutchinson announced over the weekend can't help but notice, both men have a combined polling of 1 1/2% they're not going very far, at least for now. is your sense that some of the other candidates who might be more formidable, might be kind of watching to see how that plays, and potentially they'll join in at some point, too >> although, as long as they wait, they're not making it easy on themselves. first of all, yeah, i think my elite political instincts lead me to think that asa hutchinson, and chris christie probably won't be getting the nomination, and the republican party in 2024 however, i mean, someone like ron desantis, pence is probably,

you know, lost his chance by now. someone like desantis, whom a lot of people were looking to, and could theoretically be looking to as an alternative, could take this as an opening, i agree with president trump on a number of things there's too much baggage, too much damage can be done. the guy can't win. here i am, and actually be proactive. actually sort of use this as an opportunity to set yourself apart further from donald trump rather than just sort of vying to be the top lap dog in the bunch, which is exactly what's been the prevailing strategy over the last six or seven years. yeah, i can't believe they are just missing this opportunity, and desantis would be probably the obvious guy to try it, but he just hasn't to this point. >> so in your reporting for this usually deeply insightful piece that you've written for the atlantic, did you run across the feeling among some republicans

who you may have spoken to that they're conflicted as they cross the line, come to the line between cowardice and ambition what do they do? >> yeah, i would say that the battle between cowardice, they're all ambitious, politicians, this is what they do the cowardice is what continues to strike me this is, to me, the recurring and depressing story to all of this, which is that donald trump only remains powerful because the republican party has allowed him to remain powerful and i think it's cowardice, i think it's fecklessness, a really really depressing statement on sort of the state of political courage in the gop. we see examples all over the world of what political courage, fighting for your country, fighting for your party looks like, whether it's in ukraine, whether it's in england, whether it's, you know, among some

outo outliers in america, liz cheney, adam kinzinger, whatever they're so drowned out by the sort of chorus of hallelujah in the face of donald trump, and again, it's not going to change unless someone else sort of proactively changes the dynamic here. >> the atlantic's mark leibovich, thank you very much for coming on this morning, and still ahead on "morning joe," democratic senator john fetterman of pennsylvania has been discharged from the hospital following treatment for depression what he's saying about his symptoms and getting help. also this morning, film maker ken burns calls our next guest's new book quote near perfect. what the author leard neabout america walking 3 miles per hour from washington, d.c. to new york city. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

35 past the hour a beautiful day in washington, d.c. senator john fetterman has been discharged from walter reid hospital the pennsylvania democrat checked himself into the facility in mid-february to receive treatment for depression his office issued this statement upon his release, quote, this isn't about politics right now there are people who are suffering with depression in red counties and blue counties if you need help, if you need help, please get help. the senator is now back home in pennsylvania and will return to washington when the senate is back in session. in his first post treatment interview, he talked about his depression symptoms. >> you just, one, thewon the bi race in the country, and the whole thing about depression,

objectively, you won, but depression can convince you you lost that's exactly what happened, and that was the start of a downward spiral. i had stopped leaving my bed i stopped eating i was dropping weight. i stopped engaging some of the most things that i love in my life i never had any self-harm, but i was indifferent, though. if the doctor said, gee, you have 18 months to live, i'd be like, meh, okay, that's how things go. >> and that is so important that he shared that a lot of people who suffer from depression don't want to share what the symptoms actually look like because they fear people will think that's who they are forever when depression is completely treatable. so, you know, this is, again, not about being a democrat and

supporting a democrat. this is about supporting someone being incredibly transparent about depression, and i'm so grateful that the senator did that i wish him well, and i'm glad he sought treatment by the way, people are asking why was he in the hospital for so long, because when you treat depression sometimes it takes two to three weeks, if they decide to go a medical route, even a month or two to see what exact mix of medicine works. it's normal. it's skjust like having a broke arm or anything else mental illness, especially as it pertains to depression, is entirely treatable, and i appreciate this senator for sharing what his symptoms were like and sharing openly about going for treatment. all right, two years ago, former "wall street journal" reporter neil king jr. made a 26-day, 330-mile trek on foot from washington, d.c. to new

york city in order to pay homage to the land and find out what concluded tell him the result is a 368 page memoir, tying our history to the present, providing discussions around our buried past and our many collective myths. the book is entitled american ramble, a walk of memory and renewal. and neil joins us now. i really appreciate your coming on the show. congratulations on the book. tell us why you decided to take this walk, this long walk? >> you know, i walked out my door at the end of march 2021. we were in a really bad pickle as a country i live nine blocks from the capital, which had been under siege a couple of months before. i just wanted to go out in the country, walk slowly, and take in the story between my house and new york city, i called it the founding swath of the country, so much of the foundational moments of our

history had taken place there, civil war, mason dixon linie, te revolutionary war, the founding documents. i wanted to walk through, talk to the people i met and extract the story i could from it. >> so you leave your house and you end up walking to new york city over a long period of time, so a man leaves his house, walks a big piece of america, establishes eye contact with many human beings, something different in this day and age, what did you learn about yourself >> about myself. that if you pay attention to your surroundings day after day to the things you see, to spring, i watched an entire spring unfold. i don't know if you have ever done that. i never had. it opens up a part of your spirit, and by the time i got to new york 2days later, new

yorkers might laugh, i have a chapter called rapture on the bayon bridge where i'm on the foot of the bridge, and i look up, oh, my god, there's the city of new york, and i was just overwhelmed by the sight of it, quite literally overwhelmed. would i have been overwhelmed by the sight of thy city if i went out for an hour or so, no. it changed my perception of the world. let's talk about, i think if someone looks at the map in a political spectrum, they look at your journey, these are all blue states, they're all sort of the same, but i suspect you found there's a lot of differences, the communities, individuals can't just be simply written off with one color-coded political statement? >> well, they may be blue states but the area that i walked through was almost entirely red. every county, maybe philadelphia being the only exception, and

some of those counties, york county, the county where york is in pennsylvania, the vote for donald trump was actually more resounding the second time around than the first time around, and that's a really interesting pivotal county one of my observations, you know, if you go back to tokeville or charles dickins or any of the writers that came to the united states in the '20s and '30s, i was channelling that spirit, they saw the micro nations of the who the first settlers were. when you walk, you find that same kind of imprint it's a very diverse and complex place. >> yeah, any arguments along the way? >> did i have arguments? the only thing that really stood out as an argument was an interesting encounter, i met a guy, i said, hey, can you fill my water bottle, and he's outside of his house, and he said, oh, if you want some water, you should go this way and that, which is basically two

miles away to a convenience store. you know, i met people that treated me incredibly well, and i think in part it was this idea of you meet a pilgrim on a pilgrimage and a part of you wants to almost be with that person, and you give him something, a beer, a bagel, a brownie, whatever, i met a lot of extraordinary people. >> the new book "american ramble a walk of memory and renewal" former "wall street journal" reporter, who walked here, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate you sharing your book with us so still ahead on "morning joe," what do levis, kcrocs, and little debbie's swiss rolls have in common, they're brand up and brand down donny deutsch will be here with the latest list of what is

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47 past the hour i know it's difficult for jackie alemany to talk about, but we will it was a historic night for louisiana state university as the women's basketball team was crowned national champion, and now attention is turning to the final match up for the men's tournament oh, my gosh. saturday night was so painful for fau, losing at .5 seconds left the san diego state aztecs now take on the connecticut huskies tonight. nbc news correspondent sam brock has the latest. >> lsu has captured its very first national championship.

>> reporter: this morning, lsu making history with a commanding 17-point win over the university of iowa, something that brought coach kim mulkey to tears, going from a losing record to champion in just two years. >> i think my tears are tears of joy. >> reporter: in the process they bested supernova guard caitlin clark who had a record for most points in a tournament, and on the men's side, lamont butler, patching his name in ncaa lure the junior from southern california ending florida atlantic's inspiring run with a buzzer beater for the ages, sending the san diego state aztecs to their first national championship game. when you were a kid, did you dream of a moment like this is this. >> in the driveway i used to have a court i played on, a bunch of like 3, 2, 1 shots, for sure a dream come true. >> reporter: the dream season for the aztecs, both elating

their fans. >> i still can't describe it, it all happened so quick, it's literally like time stopped and you hear screaming. >> reporter: and robbing the fau owls of an even deeper run if you had to pick an adjective, what would you use >> i would just say crushing. >> reporter: facing off against the aztecs tonight for all the marbles, the uconn huskies, one of only six teams ever to win their first five games by double digits the sports world getting a boost from lamont butler's strength his sister was murdered 15 months ago. >> she got the ball in a little bit. i miss her and i'm happy i'm able to do this for her. coming up, officials in the trump administration are talking about the former president's indictments and whether he should take the stand at trial we'll have the comments next on "morning joe" for you. pope francis celebrated

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should be out. that ball should be out. that ball is out that is gone it is gone it is a walkoff for the red sox. >> come on, man! that is insane, mike barnacle. that was just insane i've been telling you we were getting ready to watch the fau game bouncing back and forth the screams, mika like, did the

red sox just win the world series are they playing in the world series >> what's going on >> beginning of april now. just an explosion in our house it was amazing. >> the shock value is incredible especially after opening day the way they played. the way they looked. halfway through that game. and then to have that happen, a walkoff win like that, still reverberates given me a new view of the season ahead. >> well, by the way, be clear about this again, jonathan lemire, we have been saying bloom is brilliant brilliant from the beginning. >> a key pickup there. even mika knew that wasn't true. adam duvall, a key pick-up with a walkoff home run opening day dreadful

a great turn around for the series dream the impossible dream october good i don't believe any of this. >> i moved the wins from 81 to 83 let's bring in right now nbc sports analyst roger bennett that's right if it's sex pistols it is roger bennet boston, early on, fear and loathing in liverpool. worst performance since roy storm and pete tried to put together a mercyside super group that went sideways really quickly. but man, that was nothing compared to went down with liverpool and united just ugly.

>> every team you touch, joe, i'm just saying. it goes to darkness. it will be the white sox year. can i say that >> no. >> mika, rejoice, it is back >> okay. >> abu dhabi, stay tuned manchester city hosted some surprising when your reds took the lead on 17 minutes. >> beautiful. >> the egyptian king sweeping to randy johnson fastball it into the net. look at him. what is home for you misdirection finishes sweet if it curls city scored four the football they play is like watching miles davis playing jazz with coltrain

levels above they ran out the score on the day. let me introduce you to jack grelish. in cleats. god bless him. city remain in second place. their white whale like moby dick leading off the football club owned by l.a. rams stan gronki in the red needed to win. irresistible on the lead they treated leads like a fan making a wedding proposal at a game 4-1. m magnificent story. nine games from glory. days in ancient times wrote into epic poems and tapestries.

dark american story. chelsea continue to soil themselves under the new ownership of todd burly who like daisy daisy jones and the six can make a good thing bad god bless todd burly he runs chelsea like elon musk with twitter blue. real carnage there you got to know what you don't know and fix it up with chelsea football club. >> yeah. you know, obviously a couple things here that stand out arsenal is holding up. i think many people watching thought they might lose a step here or there but holding firm, tough against a great city team. we got to talk about liverpool's problems i think they are temporary chasing history just last year

exhausted chasing four trophies. world cup strange timing you can say there are a lot of problems but klopp can figure it out. i must say i have never seen -- dead serious -- as lost of a football team. their form was horrid. seemed to be no theory of the case out there like i was watching 11-year-oldings or 7-year-olds running after a soccer ball. it is horrid digging down another layer they sent so much money to have this just horrid team what's your diagnosis? >> you have named it an american over there in the spotlight the name in the papers across the globe. been seen as a mark at the poker

table. fleeced. moving to the third manager of the season only human being who can turn the season around. make it happen, joe. >> all right thank you very, very much. at the top of the third hour. >> courage. >> we see that. >> white sox to win the series. >> okay. sounds good. >> god bless love you, roger. >> god bless. donald trump is expected to leave the florida home to fly to no new york city for arraignment. the reception might be less warm arriv arriving in the old home of manhattan this afternoon joining us is vaughn hillyard. set the scene for us today.

>> reporter: hey, good morning, guys we are about four hours away from the time we expect donald trump to get in the motorcade at mar-a-lago going past where we are to palm beach international airport and then board the trump branded plane to new york city the former president just hours from leaving the florida compound to surrender to authorities on an expected liszt of criminal charges. >> what i hope is that we get in and out as quickly as possible that is a moment before the judge, not guilty. >> reporter: calling the indictment an assault on the nation in a social media post awaiting the arraignment. back on the golf course on sunday, supporters gathering near the mar-a-lago property while the attorneys establish an early defense for the former president. >> gearing up for a battle

this is something that we believe is a political persecution. >> reporter: trump's own former attorney general saying he would advise trump not to take the stand. >> i think it is a particularly bad idea because he lacks self control. >> reporter: bill cassidy questioning the ramifications of focusing on the former president. >> going to lead to all kinds of political theater. >> reporter: trump announcing that he won't be quiet returning to florida on tuesday hours after the arraignment to use the private club as a backdrop for prime time remarks to the country. while many in the gop questioned the indictment a prominent republican said trump should end the campaign because of it. >> looking at the presidency and the future of the country we don't need that distraction. he needs to concentrate on the issues he faces. >> reporter: hutchinson plans to

jump into the race as a republican alternative. >> i will run for president of the united states. >> reporter: trump overnight posting on his latest social media account three key points one, he called the judge presiding over the case, suggested that he was trump hating there is no evidence 0 of that donald trump is not naive to the fact it is the same judge to oversee the sentencing of his former cfo alan weisselberg. also, joe, his lawyer, said yesterday he had no reason to believe that the judge in this case is biassed. two oh points, calling for the ousting of district attorney bragg. that can only be put in action by the democratic governor of

new york and wants the trial moved out of manhattan, concerned about the jury pool. that is something here that would potentially come forward from his own defense team to the judge but at this point he said that they have not had the internal conversations yet mika >> vaughn, thank you for your reporting this morning let's bring in the host of "the last word" having the first word on this monday morning, lawrence o'donnell. good to see you. >> great to be here. thank you. >> good. what do you make of the next 24 hours in terms of security concerns, chatter on the internet, trump, of course, trying to make hay over the indictment i'm just watching whether or not the judge during the arraignment says don't talk about this give some clear lines that perhaps he can't cross. >> now that he is a criminal

defendant and a judge supervising the case this is the first time in his life where his speech can be controlled in some way. it's going to be interesting to see when and if the judge takes that step to gag donald trump. you could begin with defendant trump, absolutely no comments, none, about the district attorney you don't have to say no threatening comments you are not allowed to make a public comment about the district attorney. you can talk about your case but you can't mention this person. or something to that effect. start gradually with the way you try to contain his speech. because we all say the baseball bat aimed at alvin bragg how do you stop that that's an important question as to the security issue, i would ask everyone who is concerned about this, i am not among them

i'm not even slightly concerned about the security issues in manhattan for this trial because the thousand-most insane of donald trump's violent criminal followers are in prison now or facing charms for the last time they rose up very few of them, very few of them from new york city. he got 11% of the vote in manhattan. it is not a place where they surge to the steps of the courthouse for donald trump. there's also tolls to get your pickup truck into manhattan. there's a bunch of hurdles here that i think will minimize any possibility of any trump protest there. he specifically called for it already. he gave them a day to be there

and of course jordan cleper went right down there to interview them on that tuesday and he found exactly one. that's how many protesters donald trump managed to turn out on the day he demanded that they turn out au all the indications are the 35,000 police officers in the nypd will have absolutely no struggle handling that and just for perspective for the audience, the nypd has more police officers on duty at 12:00 noon of any day of the year than the entirety, the entirety of the police forces and military forces that responded to the attack on the capitol on january 6th. that responded not there at the beginning but the total that showed up to handle it is smaller than the

total nypd officers on patrol at 12:00 noon any given day. >> by the way, we need to clarify. >> okay. >> you had no problem getting, never have any trouble getting your pickup truck in and out. >> the tolls are terrible. >> yeah. but you -- >> my pickup is good with two tanks. i run out of gas i can just switch over to the second tank. >> big cowboy hat. let's talk about -- not the pickup anymore or the gun rack but talk about how it seems that the pace is quickening what we heard through the years and said on this show is it does seem if you look over his career donald trump is a man who's

above the law. the law does not apply to donald trump like everybody else but we have the manhattan case and despite what republicans and democrats -- we don't know the indictment we can't judge the strength or the weakness yet we'll get information on tuesday. you had over the weekend "the new york post" giving us information on the mar-a-lago case the obstruction charges. >> that is heating up. >> the call is coming from the inside they have communications from somebody working for trump camera footage they have the evidence that donald trump after he got the subpoena that he was rummaging through the boxes to try to figure out which documents to keep from them we had the attorney/client pierced in another case because the federal judge said it was likely that a crime was committed. between attorney and client.

so that privilege was pierced. it seems that after all these years the pace is quickening is this the world to live in over the next several months between manhattan and georgia and the mar-a-lago documents case jack smith, not going to take anything off of trump. of course, the j-6 sedition conspiracy the possibility of that. >> yeah. joe, i was actually scheduled to take off the first week of may and now i won't do that because everyone i talked to with prosecutor prosecutorial experience in georgia said the likely indictment is the first week of may. i will be here

i might make it here on monday morning the first week of may for what could be the second trump indictment week. it is a matter of speedy trial laws in georgia interacting with grand jury schedules and the pros aim at the first week of may. we will get used to this remember that teflon don what was the name that john gotti got. he was the mafia don who was teflon couldn't prosecute him the way he earned that name in "the new york post" and "daily news" is found not guilty three times in a row in three criminal trials and then, of course, teflon don spent his life in prison convicted and died in prison but donald trump is not teflon don until he gets the first

three not guilties i will patiently wait to see if he's that lucky in the courtroom. >> let's talk about the politics of this. we have talked in the show a few republicans who are eyeing the white house, long shots to be clear, critical of trump do you think others may break ranks with former president trump? it is one thing to be dismissive of this case in manhattan. some others looming are far more serious. >> i don't think anyone that polls above 1% in the republican field will break ranks with trump. they stare the the trump voter polls and trying to get the nomination you need the voters so you don't want to part with them in this emotional period. i -- let me label this pure guesswork in the past in the pre-trump era

we could discuss political expectations based on something we had seen before it is like meteorology the reason we know this hurricane is likely to do this that's what 99% of them hitting that spot. that's what we used to do in this field trump destroyed that because there's no model for how do you run against a leader of the pack under indictment and facing a couple more indictments? we don't have a model for how you do that. these guys are feeling the way along. desantis is playing it most carefully so far he is rewarded with sec place in the polls for that guys polling at 1% or be low might say something contrary to trump. >> a couple years back i was in pensacola and walking down the

street i had a guy come up to me. obviously just -- he was troubled he was upset wanted to talk to me knew that i had been in congress, on tv. this was 2018 maybe, '19 he sat there and he talked to me he said i lost my brother in the beirut bombing it was in 1983, obviously. you remember it. we talked. i thought, my god, all these years later this man now still haunted by being a child and losing his brother a marine. in the tragic beirut 1983 bombing. we think about people that lost loved ones and friends in vietnam. iraq wars, afghanistan

sometimes we forget the people mourning because of columbine, sandy hook, parkland you look at the country. music festival in las vegas. the tree of life synagogue in pittsburgh of course, "the washington post" looking back at the church in texas, in rural texas. a gunman shooting up that church still emotionally savages that community every day. we report on this. we report on this and move on to the next mass shoot jg the pain, the injuries, the suffering stay just like that man the brother

of the man in beirut. >> there's an area of psychiatry in our lifetimes and it is the aftermath. what is left for the survivors, for the kids in those schools or in the classroom next door to the one where all the killing occurred or the kids pretending to be dead on the floor of the classroom floor in uvalde 77 minutes before they could get out of the classroom it is beyond the current known capacities of psychiatric work to figure out how to deal with what those children are living with for the rest of their lives. it is the part of the story that i have sometimes tried to open up a little bit on my show when i have someone on who is a

survivor and it is years later i try to ask them a little bit about how they're feeling. i haven't gotten anywhere. i haven't had someone open up about that i know that tv is not the place really i guess for that to happen but it is a deep and profound concern that we should have all have and the humidity to know that we don't have any idea, no idea at all, how to care for those children psychologically for the rest of their lives. >> lawrence, and yet in this world that we live in -- i try to explain to younger americans that watch the show or that i come in contact with, for you and me this world did not exist before 1998. this mass shooting world did not exist before columbine

columbine happened then a few years later aurora happened a few years later another tragedy happened georgia tech happened. suddenly, though, it is like after sandy hook it's just a constant lives. yet faced with thin epidemic you have the governor of tennessee wanting to protect schools but allowed permitless and open carry so carrying an ak-15 walking up to the school nobody could really stop them, could they where are you going with that gun? in tennessee this governor made sure that anybody can carry guns around and look menacing with a long gun wrapped around their

neck. >> uh-huh. yeah we have left -- the republican policy at this point is to say our defense of kids in school is the hope that -- >> more guns. >> the first officers that get the call about the mass murder in a school as heroic as the two who we just saw run in to that school without shields they didn't wait for the shields that the guys in texas did they ran straight to the sound of the guns and the shooter. and so they took out the shooter after the shooter killed six people so the republican policy in effect is we'll try to get the cops there as fast as possible so that they can keep the body count down as low as possible if, if the police officers have the super human courage to run straight to the sound of the gun fire which we know not all

police officers do it is -- it is just beyond horrifying that that's where we have left it you don't have to be that old to have lived in a different world. i know 30-year-olds that grew up in the country and never had that active shooter drill in the school it is not something that has really locked in totally until fairly recently. >> right you know, let's look back now at the longstanding trauma. joe mentioned the two dozen people killed inside a church in texas. survivors five years later are still reeling from physical and emotional pain their harrowing stories are detailed in a arl entitled "a

tragedy without end. which focus on the trauma left behind by the gunman's use of an ah-15 and said the number of li lives lost were magnifying with a ruger rifle the gunman fired 450 military-grade bullets inside the church would be minutes. the devastation was incomparable to damage from a handgun or shotgun. doctors who treated the victims likened the wounds to something on a battlefield david recalled needing six surgeries. he takes eight to 12 ibuprofen pills a day.

i have normalized pain every night and day. i will never be normal again he is not the only one joining us now is "the washington post" reporter behind the article sylvia foster-brown. thank you for coming on the show and sharing the article. you look at morgan workman's life and john holcum and daughter evelyn and live every day they live with the trauma of what happened. tell us about it. >> yeah. so we went back there over five years after the shootings that killed 26 people there and we found so many people still struggling with lifelong disability, infertility, high lead toxicity. people are handicapped, using colostomy bags we cover a mass shooting

and the immediate aftermath. but looking at how the communities and the impacted people are still struggling, are still suffering the physical impacts of the shootings it paints a picture of what we are doing to the country and happening. i read about elsewhere with each shooting i was just in nashville thinking i know what this is going to look like five years from now. i see that right? it is really devastating and really sad talking to the families and talking the people who have just lost so much. >> sylvia, the chain of loss is the strongest thing these people will ever encounter in their lives. the weight of the loss and the violence gives a whole new meaning to the phrase post

traumatic stress syndrome. what impact did the memories and the lives now have on you? were you aware of the depth and clinging loss? >> i wasn't. i don't think i'll ever fully grasp the level of grief john holcum, for example, lost three children, pregnant wife and parents. it is unimaginable to think about how you move forward what else do you turn to he has a daughter that's still here, survived the shooting that witnessed her mother die, be shot and killed there. they have to live through life together and pick up the pieces and yeah

when you really think about it and put yourself in their position you are at a loss after the time that i have spent with them i still know that there's a gap between what i can imagine and what they have had to go through. >> your paper just in the last week or so did a remarkable reporting about the ak-15 to the human body tell us more if you will about the people you encounter dealing with the survivors but dealing with physical wounds and emotional wounds of being faced with such a weapon. >> right so the thing about the ak-15 style weapons is can easily shoot with high velocity so a lot of folks didn't just have one bullet wound but many there are also bullets fired in the scene that had pieces of shrapnel and embodying in

people's bodies and so tiny that you can't like go about extracting all of them as a doctor i described in the story morgan has visible freckles they look like but purple small things that are powderized pieces of shrapnel and bullet in the body and leeching lead causing other people you have people because of the lead toxicity are infertile. the families that they had planned in their future. people carrying colostomy bags swollen ankles hard to stand up in the day because the circulation is off and the limitations that doctors can do to really help heal you

and put you back on track there's the ptsd aspect for the survivors. experiencing that. loud noises will send a rush of adrenaline and physical health effects tied to the mental ptsd and stress ors in the daily lif. there's triggers and news of other shootings that send people right back. >> changed forever "the washington post" sylvia, thank you so much. excellent reporting. we appreciate your being on. >> multiply that story out thousands and thousands of times. multiply that story out. it is so strange there was just a tragic shooting in las vegas

the country music festival where a guy just stood up with weapons of war and just shot down there. that story, a deadliest in american history, just went away we don't know a lot about that guy. >> i went to the scene there to cover that and we are still learning new information about him and there was an article the other day about he was a heavy gambler. angry at the casinos and there's heavy gamblers angry at the casinos. nothing explains the motive when what we deal with madness is the least interesting part of the discussion i quantity to add my thanks to the reporting that sylvia did. think about the conversations with those people.

and also the value of doing this kind of reporting that is largely ignored by so many other people who could do it just the very act of doing that work is something we can't thank her enough for. >> lawrence, thank you we'll be watching "the last word" at 10:00 eastern here on msnbc. thank you for getting up early. >> means a lot to us. severe weather left trails of destruction in the west and midwest. recovery in indiana. wisconsin supreme court most expensive election ever. we'll discuss why and the conversation with broadway star billy porter who won a grammy, an emmy and two tonies to embark on a multi-city tour for the new

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recovery efforts in the south and midwest after a deadly tornado outbreak killed at least 32 people confirmed dead so far that's the number that we know in terms of the death toll tornadoing steam rolled through a dozen states destroying homes and entire neighborhoods

joining us from sullivan, indiana, jesse kirsch. >> reporter: the debris goes on block after block in indiana 90 minutes from downtown indianapolis this is a harder hit community in the state replicating the scenes in the country. totally across the u.s. we have 32 confirmed deaths from tornados over the weekend, including 3 in this community. late yesterday officials say that the search is complete. everyone is accounted for. three people had been found to be dead according to officials including a woman in the early 60s and son in the late 30s. now a call for volunteers and as the cleanup goes on amid the piles of debris, shattered glass, homes destroyed in this community. again and again.

there's concern about another threat of severe weather tomorrow we spoke with a man yesterday who described going into the basement and hearing the wind overhead this is what he saw coming back outside minutes later. >> still dark. i had a flashlight shined it on the car it rolled over i thought i got to get out of here. >> reporter: now do you recognize this? >> no. it is not my neighborhood. i had a nice neighborhood. really good neighbors. nice, quiet. good neighbors down here i don't recognize this >> reporter: 30 to 40 homes and businesses according to officials that are very badly damaged. some appear to be completely gone that man told me he planted a flag in the rubble that was his

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♪ ♪ that's amazing that's billy porter in his recent appearance on "the tonight show" had everyone off the feet he will be taking the show on the road for the first-ever solo pop music concert tour called the mona lisa tour volume 1. billy known for being on broadway and "pose" will hit the

stage in 25 u.s. cities across the country kicking off in seattle on april 29. and the grammy, emmy and two-time tony award winning singer and actor joining us now. it is such a pleasure to have you on the show! >> it is a pleasure to be here thank you for having me. i watch you guys every morning >> you do? >> thank you for bringing some levity and peace to the situation on in the world right now. you are very helpful you guys are very helpful and calming my serves. >> you are calming my nerves right now because we need you at a time like this you once told the "today" show the dream as a child was to be the male whitney houston. >> yes.

>> i think we can declare this. >> i'm getting close you know i got to play the fairy god mother in the most recent cinderella now i'm going on the road to sell millions of albums. >> but the pipes, billy. you can sing. >> thank you thank you, sweet heart thank you very much. >> the tour is the first time doing a solo tour. i saw you holding your own own the stage but that's a lot of work from the inside alone exposed. how are you getting ready for this tell us about the show and what are your feelings act doing this on your own. >> the black mona lisa tour is named after my forthcoming album, black mona lisa it's my return to the mainstream

music space. that's really exciting my first r and b album came out in 1997. the business was very homophobic at the time, so it didn't work out for me now all these other things have happened i get to come back to this space on my own terms. it's a celebration of life, of hope, of joy, of peace you know, i hope that people come i'm going to give the world a big bear hug the collective trauma we've been through, we're back in person. i want to look people in the faces. i want to bring the message of hope and love and joy to the people and light a fire under everybody's behind to remind us that democracy only works when we do it together. we have to come together again it's time for us to get back in the streets and demand justice

and demand the things that we need my hope is that being out in the trenches with the people will help in that, you know i'm trying to just do my part, you know. >> yes your industry has suffered so much through covid it must be just exhilarating to be back working with people again on stage and seeing an audience i look forward to that for you and for anybody who is a performer and takes part in putting together a production. the industry was just shattered during covid but you talked about also the homophobia you experienced earlier in your career you have said that your queerness is your super power. >> yes. >> tell us how it is so and how you exercise that super power in this show. >> yeah. i was told for decades from

allies and haters alike that my queerness would be my liability, and it was for decades around my 30s, i realized that the only choice i could make for myself was to choose myself and to choose my own authenticity no matter what and let the chips fall where they may and that the universe would take care of me inside of that choice. you know, it took a while. i'm not saying that it was quick. it took decades. but it did shift starting with lola, then winning the awards and getting a platform that was based on my authenticity the platform came as a result of

that the roles i got to play, the things that came to me were about that so the visibility of being queer in the space, in the world has landed me where i am so now i get to talk about it. now i get to use my platform to hopefully i set myself free and the hope is in seeing my journey other people will have the courage to choose authenticity and set themselves free as well. >> that authenticity, how much is that going to inform this tour, which is not just your first solo tour, but it's a very autobiographical story. >> showing up as my authentic self is a revolutionary act,

always has been. from being a black man to being a black queer man, it's revolutionary. so all of those things will be on display as well as love, right? leading with compassion and love it's loving kindness it's a thing that we're missing. it's hard to do right now in these spaces i'm going to tell you, i'm very angry. i'm filled with rage i'm filled with rage you know, what's going on right now in this world is disgusting. and inside of that we have to choose loveanyway, because lov always wins. that doesn't mean it's easy. my grandmother used to say sometimes tough love needs to be employed tough love needs to be employed right now. you know what i'm saying so my goal is to minister.

you know, there's a calling on my life, there's a purpose my goal is to minister to people anybody who's under the sound of my voice, none of this is new. we've seen it before i'm a black man in america none of this is new. this has been america from the time we started, right it's cyclical and this too shall pass do not be scared, do not be terrified, because the change has already happened. >> billy, i agree with you i think you have such an important message that really we need to hear more of by the way the black mona lisa tour volume one, does that mean there will be more >> yes there are more volumes of the work, the focus, my ministry you know, like i said, there

will be more volumes of it the single "baby was a dancer" is out now there will be more singles through the summer as i tour the goal is to have the album out in late summer/early fall. i want to keep people on the hook thus, the volume one language. >> i love it black mona lisa tour volume one kicks off april 29th in seattle. billy porter, so great to meet you and have you on the show best of luck with this will you please come back? >> please, please. i'll come back i love you guys. i wake up in the morning to watch "morning joe" every morning. i love this. i love being engaged and being involved politics is a huge part and activism is a huge part of my

art. >> well, we couldn't be more honored. billy porter, thank you very much for coming on this morning. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe. ♪

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what a kcircus it's an absolute circus. >> circus is a vague term. in what way? trump is a circus. >> we're just kind of piling on at this point. >> he's guilty, right? >> do you know what the indictments are? like, i'm assuming he is let's just jump right at it. >> yeah, great. >> it only helps him i don't think he's going to be the nominee. he shouldn't be the nominee. he can't win in 2024 [ applause ] >> it solidifies his base. >> can you believe that? now that he's been indicted, should he drop out >> i do. first of all, the office is more important than any individual person for the sake of the office of the presidency, i do think

that's too much of a side show and distraction. >> i think it's important to stress that in this case that involves hush money to a porn star to cover up an affair that later involves cooking his company's books, you have not heard a single trump defender stand up and say, oh, that's not the donald trump i know. to my mind, this is a kind of rough justice here, because it's deeply ironic that a person who spent a good part of his four years in the white house trying to weaponize the justice department against his political enemies is now saying he is a victim of persecution. it's sort of what comes around goes around. >> i'm not his lawyer. you know, generally i think it's a bad idea to go on the stand and i think it's a particularly bad idea for trump because he lacks all self-control it will be very difficult to prepare him and keep him testifying in a prudent fashion. >> wow so much there. look at a few republicans

willing to publicly criticize donald trump following his indictment in manhattan. >> what about john bolton going, nobody's out there saying this isn't the trump we know? >> that's actually really interesting. across media organizations and also his supporters, even his supporters in those crowds say they don't seem to have a problem with the allegation and the connection with the porn star they don't say, i'm going to defend his honor, he would never do that. not one person find me that person. find me the person who would say he would never, ever pay off a porn star for sex. >> and then lie about it on his business records and commit a felony. >> they're saying he's not so bad. it's really disturbing. >> again, though, really good point in there that we have to keep underlining is, nobody has seen these indictments yet i just said felony it might be a misdemeanor. >> could be a nothing burger.

>> maybe there's a felony attached to it maybe it's a nothing burger. bragg has been interesting from the very beginning he had two prosecutors who thought that they had a case against him, and he refused to move on that case against him. in refusing to move in that case against him, the two prosecutors quit one even, promeranz even wrote a book saying we had this guy absolutely nailed and bragg should have moved forward. bragg also coming under a lot of criticism for being far too lenient on crime in new york city so he's been getting it from all sides. it's going to be really interesting to see what type of indictment he puts together and why he wouldn't do the indictment before, be under all of that scrutiny and do it now later.

if he doesn't have more, if he hasn't built significantly on a case that he passed the year before, obviously a lot of questions will be raised we won't know that until the indictment is unsealed. >> maybe we'll know that tomorrow the former president announced overnight he will head to new york in about three hours from now ahead of his court appearance tomorrow. nbc news correspondent garrett haake is outside the manhattan courthouse this morning. garrett, what's the latest >> reporter: good morning. security officials here in new york city have been preparing for this moment even since before donald trump first predicted his arrest two weeks ago. manhattan d.a. alvin bragg has just arrived in the building a short time ago now we know tomorrow will be the historic day when the first-ever twice-impeached former president stands before a judge and also becomes the first-ever former president to face multiple criminal charges new york city preparing to become the setting for an

unprecedented legal and political drama as donald trump returns to face the criminal charges against him. mr. trump expected to face some 30 separate charges according to two sources familiar with the matter, the first ever filed against a former president in an indictment handed up last thursday, still secret and under seal until his arraignment tuesday. the case developed by manhattan d.a. alvin bragg centers on hush money payments former trump fixer michael cohen claims he made to an adult film star on mr. trump's behalf, hoping to buy her silence at a pivotal moment in the 2016 campaign about an alleged affair a decade prior. mr. trump insists there was no affair his attorneys insist there was no crime >> i very much anticipate a motion to dismiss coming because there's no law that fits this. >> mr. trump's arraignment tuesday will include being processed at the courthouse with fingerprints and a dna sample expected to be taken as well, but he likely won't be

handcuffed and secret service agent ws will protect him at evr turn he will give a speech tuesday night on his return to florida, but a gag order may be imposed by the judge trump has written on social media, a judge assigned to my witch hunt case hates me mr. trump's own lawyer disagreeing. >> i have no reason to believe this judge is biassed. >> reporter: mr. trump's legal challenges won't end at the mar-a-lago gates the "washington post" reporting that the justice department is amassing evidence of possibly obstruction by mr. trump in the special counsel investigation of classified documents allegedly kept at the former president's florida home nbc news has not confirmed that report and the justice department is not commenting mr. trump on social media sunday attacking all of the

investigations against him as efforts to, quote, interfere with, rig and steal elections. while mr. trump is in the courthouse tomorrow, some of his most vocal supporters including marjorie taylor greene will host a peaceful protest on his behalf in the park just behind our camera position here mr. trump has been arguing that the city of new york is so against him he cannot get a fair trial here, posting on social media, leading a lot of folks to believe once this process gets started, he might push for a change of venue. just one of the many things we'll be watching in the unprecedented weeks ahead. >> garrett haake, thank you so much. >> do we still have jonathan lemire around? >> i think we do. >> and mike barnicle. >> i'm here. >> very interesting new poll just came out that shows 60% of americans, 6 in 10 americans support the indictment of donald

trump. they approve of the indictment of donald trump. a majority of americans believe politics played some role in it. and i always say, yes, donald trump's base still supports him, but we're talking on the margins. for those margins, those are independent, swing voters, et cetera that's why this next line is so important. independents largely line up in support of the indictment with 60% approving of it and 38% disapproving of it while views on the indictment are split along party lines, the poll finds that majorities across major demographic divides all approve of the decision to indict the former president. that includes 62% of women, 58% of men, racial and ethnic groups, 80% of black adults, 71% of hispanic adults, 51% of white

adults generational lines, 69% under age 35, 62% age 35 to 49, 53% age 50 to 64 and 54% for those 65 and older i just want to continue because i find this fascinating. even educational levels, which is usually the great divide, 68% with college degrees, 56% with some college or less mike barnicle, this is fascinating. again, it goes to what we've been saying for some time. yeah, he can get people holding up a witch hunt sign in his rallies if he wants to, but the majority of americans across all demographic lines believe that donald trump should be indicted

and support the indictment of donald trump i must add, caveat here, they don't know what he's getting indicted for exactly yet pretty remarkable change, because we focus so much on the trump base here we have a poll that shows the overwhelming majority of americans believe he should be indicted. >> you're right, joe those numbers are surprising the real key to those numbers that you just read, this is before tomorrow's indictment will be unsealed we don't know what will be entailed in the unsealing of the indictment and it's well before the special counsel jack smith comes in with a probable indictment, which will be much more serious than what we see tomorrow as well as the georgia indictment, which is pending. apparently lawrence o'donnell just told us the first week in may. all of those, the weight of those will only enhance those

poll numbers, i would think. >> those are the voters which trump got at least enough of them in 2016 where he was able to squeak out a win, those independents, those swings, some of those voters who voted for president obama but wanted to go somewhere different. they broke for trump in 2016 and largely broke away from him in 2020 if they're so critical of him now and believe this timeout is justified and the more serious ones likely still coming, it's hard to see any of those voters going back to trump in 2024. this may be a short-term political boon in the primary, but it sure is going to be a problem in 2024. >> let's bring in charlie sykes. everybody folks on the trump base, everybody focuses on the groveling republicans in the house. i'm focused on wisconsin voters, michigan voters, pennsylvania

voters, independents, swing voters, the people who decide who wins elections every two and four years you look at this poll. 60% of independents support the indictment of donald trump every demographic group supports the indictment of donald trump not great news for mar-a-lago this morning >> no, not good news for the republican party, which has decided once again it's going to embrace trump as closely as possible as i was watching one republican after another bow the knee to donald trump, watching the entire republican establishment come to his defense, i have to say if i can quote one of my favorite bible verses, as a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool returns to its folly. >> oh my god. >> here we have the republican party once again going back all in on donald trump even though the evidence continues to mount

and they know it he's politically toxic in 2024 it's one thing for this to be a big boost in the primary, but now republicans have made it very clear that they're going to continue buying this ticket. if anybody thinks they're going to pivot after the georgia indictments or after jack smith comes down, i think that's naive. with each step, it becomes more difficult for them to break away from donald trump even though they all know in private that this will be disastrous for the party going into 2024 and they have to spend the next year defending this guy and talking about him. it's really a worst case scenario for a lot of republicans. >> blessed are the merciful for they will be shown mercy charlie's favorite bible verse, as a dog returns to its vomit, might speak to the darkness of his soul we'll save that discussion for

another day. i agree with you that the rank and file republicans that have been cowards for the past six years may not have an impact on him, but you and i are republicans that broke a long time ago i saw republicans that broke after january 6th. i've seen republicans that have broken after some of the absolute lunacy. again, if you have this indictment, you see thenumbers i expect we'll have a georgia indictment sooner rather than later. the mar-a-lago case seems to be going in an absolutely terrible direction for trump. that seems like the tightest most open-and-shut case. you look at january 6th, i don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility. the impact if not on republicans, on wisconsin voters, michigan, pennsylvania, arizona, georgia voters and the

suburbs, how horrible is that not just for donald trump, but for the republican party that they stand behind a guy that may be indicted three to four times? >> it's obviously horrible indictments do not add votes they do not get the swing voters to say, hey, we didn't vote for you last time, but maybe we're going to support you this time here's the problem i think there continues to be this magical thinking in the republican party that somehow donald trump is going to go away and they have a collective action problem is ron desantis going to step up and push back on donald trump, make the case for his unfitness? who is glenn youngkin, nikki haley? most of them are hoping somebody takes care of them without them having to take the decisive step it's refreshing hearing john bolton the decency lane in the

republican party is incredibly narrow and small there's no reason to think that's going to change any time soon the problem is by the time republicans realize how horrible this is, donald trump may have this nomination wrapped up unless somebody takes the kind of step they have not been willing to take so far. >> so wisconsin voters head to the polls tomorrow where at stake is control of the wisconsin supreme court and likely the future of reproductive rights in the u.s the contest is between former justice daniel kelley and a liberal judge. early in-person and absentee voting has been under way for nearly two weeks. >> the stakes here are monumental you have, of course, an abortion bill from another century, i think. you look at also wisconsin being one of the most gerrymandered states in america.

talk about how huge the stakes are for this state which has become what florida used to be in presidential politics >> yeah. this race is an everything all at once race where all of the issues you're talking about are going to be decided tomorrow abortion, wisconsin has an 1849 ban. we have the gerrymandering issue. the question of how votes will be counted in the 2024 election, the legacy of scott walker it will all be decided if the liberal candidate wins, this will be the first time in well over a decade that conservatives have not had a majority on the wisconsin state supreme court. both sides are very aware of how pivotal and crucial this is. it's one of the reasons why it has become the most expensive judicial race in american history. i have to tell you, sitting here in wisconsin, television ads,

back-to-back attack ads. this is a bitter, hard-fought, extremely negative campaign. so far it has been dominated by the abortion issue, but there are tens of millions of dollars worth of ads attacking both of the candidates on the air right now, which makes it a little bit unpredictable what's going to happen tomorrow. >> you're so good. you're the person i always call on nights of presidential contests you usually call them. you always call them right i'm curious what's your gut on this one what are the signs right now on who has the advantage going into the election >> it's really hard to say at this point the conventional wisdom has been that the liberal candidate has the advantage, because the race has been dominated by abortion and the conservative candidate has taken a very, very extreme position but having said that, we don't know what the turnout is going

to be. we've never had an election like this here in wisconsin these are normally low turnout elections. this is going to be a record voter turnout. it's hard to say exactly who is more motivated at the moment as i said, there are millions of dollars of attack ads involving all kinds of issues involving criminal justice, sentencing, personal allegations back and forth. whether or not that makes a difference or is getting any traction, i honestly cannot tell you. it's really up in the air and both sides are making massive get out the vote efforts over the next 36 hours. >> we'll be watching that. charlie sykes, thank you very much di dominion's defamation lawsuit against fox news will go to trial in two weeks. a judge on friday denied an attempt by the network to have

the case dismissed instead, he agreed with the voting machine company, writing, quote, the evidence developed in this civil proceeding demonstrates that it's crystal clear that none of the statements relating to dominion about the 2020 election are true that ruling is significant, because it means dominion will not have to litigate baseless conspiracy theories during the trial. the jury will be asked to consider whether fox news acted with actual malice, meaning they knowingly disregarded the truth in publishing the claims and whether damages are owed to dominion fox's top executives and hosts could have to testify before the jury that includes founder rupert murdoch and former house speaker paul ryan, who is a board member last week fox's attorneys tried to argue that rupert murdoch was not healthy enough to travel, to

which the judge told them not to make him, quote, look like a idiot, noting that murdoch has plans to travel for his upcoming marriage to his wife >> coming up on "morning joe," one fast food giant is temporarily closing its u.s. offices this week, having its employees work from home so it can deliver the news about layoffs virtually. we'll tell you what company it is. plus, dozens of tech leeader are calling for a pause on what they're calling the dangerous race to make artificial intelligence as advanced as humans with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good.

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hang on, luigi. [ ominous music playing ] [ screaming ] yes! fire! [ chuckling ] house speaker kevin mccarthy will be hosting a bipartisan meeting with the president of taiwan at the ronald reagan presidential library this wednesday. last week china threatened

retaliation if those meetings took place from promising, quote, resolute counter measures pope francis greeted crowds in st. peter's square on palm sunday yesterday the pope made his way through the masses in the popemobile, during which he took time to greet and kiss a baby and a man in a wheelchair. pope francis then presided over palm sunday services in front of the crowd of 60,000 people sunday's services come after the pontiff was released from the hospital on saturday after being admitted for three nights due to bronchitis as the pope left the hospital on saturday, he took a moment to comfort and pray with a couple who lost their daughter the night before >> mike, this scene was so moving with pope francis and these grieving parents as he

left the hospital. he is a special man and an incredible representative for the church >> you know, joe, i am fortunate enough in my lifetime to have met with the pope. he is enormously human he's an enormously normal, if you can be normal when you're pope, human being. 86 years of age, has a consistent record of suffering health problems at 86. we should all be worried about that this is the most important holiday in catholicism coming up, easter sunday. he's preceding over the universal catholic church which has dissension in the vat kin, with conservative cardinals who do not like what the pope stands

for, opening up the church in a broader way than it has been in the past god bless him. that's all i can say. we also have news that mcdonald's has temporarily closed all of its offices in the u.s. as it reportedly prepares to inform its corporate employees about a fresh round of layoffs. according to the "wall street journal," an internal e-mail tells corporate staff in the u.s. and some employees overseas to work from home while the company notifies people of their job status mcdonald's has more than 150,000 employees in corporate roles, about 70% based outside the united states. it's still unclear how many employees will be let go. >> andrew, is this a sign of things to come >> you know what it's signs of,

it's signs of taking a page from the playbook of elon musk, who did this at twitter, if you recall, when they said don't come to the office it really is a sign about maybe the future of this hybrid world. there are some people, obviously, who think this is disgusting and gross and if you're going to fire somebody, you should do it in person that's the dignified way to do it there are other people saying maybe this is the more dignified way to do it, which is to say rather than having to walk through an office with a box in your hands on the way out, you're already at home i don't know i'm curious where both of you land on this. >> i think it's kind of mean, but i guess it's the future. >> yeah. >> companies can do what they w want they can fire people the way they want, i guess >> i think it's sort of cowardly to tell everybody to stay at

ho home, you're going to shut the offices and let them know over e-mail whether they're fired. >> my worry is that the human connection becomes an abstraction to those who are doing the firing this changes the relationship to some degree between employees and a company, which is to say, if you think on any day at any time you could be told you're out and everything on your desk is going to be shipped to you. you're not even going to say good-bye to your colleagues in person that's something on the other end, there's a lot of employees who have been saying we don't want to go to the office, we want a hybrid workforce and what not if that's the case, maybe this is part and parcel of that. >> maybe so. let me ask you we both know ari.

>> wrestlemania, here it comes. >> ari had his hands around the ufc. now wwe. this is massive. it drives so much income as well it is going to be a big part of endeavor's footprint. >> what's happening is the ufc is merging with wwe. that will become spun out as a separate company think of a big sort of wrestling fighting company that will also include slap i don't know if you've watched that show. it's pretty barbaric of a program. on the other side, endeavor will remain both the talent part of the business and the production and hollywood sort of side of it this part will get spun off and ari will run both of them. there's talk about whether there's going to be betting in the wwe.

effectively you're going to be betting on scripted content. that's a thing that may be coming there's the issue that ari emanuel is going to be working with vince mcmahon, who has been accused of some pretty heinous crimes to some degree, you know, at minimum sexual harassment and other things and what that is going to portend for way hollywood thinks about all of this of course, hollywood has already had probably an opinion about a lot of these kinds of things given what the ufc business is and some of the allegations made against dana white all of this is going to get into the stew today and i imagine we're going to be talking about it for quite some time. >> andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much for being on. coming up on "morning joe," what do jay-z, paid time off and baseball have in common? and little debbie.

>> i think that have something to do with donny deutsch dealing with his swedish and finnish engineers in their white lab jackets. >> they're all part of the latest installment donny deutsch joins us next. - representative! - sorry, i didn't get that. - oh buddy! you need a hug. you also need consumer cellular. get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carriers and 100% us based customer support. starting at $20.

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. looking live at new york, listening to blondie and talking about how 50 years ago today the first commercial cell phone call was made 50 years ago that seems long. joe fryer has this look back >> reporter: long before sleek smart phones were practically welded to our hands, the technology looked like this, a brick is how some might describe it, though perhaps it's more fitting to call it a building block. >> this phone, you can see how big it is. it weighed 2 1/2 pounds, would you believe. >> marty cooper worked for

motorola back in 1973 overseeing the company's cell phone development division is this where history was made >> right here. who should i call? it occurred to me that i would call my counterpart. >> reporter: from this exact spot 50 years ago today, cooper made the first mobile cell call, dialing up his rival at bell labs. >> i said, i'm calling on a cell phone, a real cell phone, a handheld personal portable cell phone. you . >> so you were bragging a little bit there? >> i sure was. >> reporter: it would be another decade before motorola's phone was on the market, selling for close to $4,000. with a price tag like that, they were initially toys for the elite. >> this is your wake up call, pal. >> reporter: you know, wall street types those early models might now be

characterized as clun kky >> it's small, it's smart, it's even sexy. >> reporter: over the years interest grew, which meant fewer folks were clueless. >> he gave me a c minus. >> reporter: before long, the devices could be fiercely flipped. and eventually their skill set expanded well beyond mere calls with the blackberry and of course the iphone. >> most of what you do is social media, texting, talking on the phone. the future of the cell phone is much more complicated and much more bright than that. >> reporter: cooper says this is just the beginning, that this technology will revolutionize education, health care and so much more, which is why when people call him the father of the cell phone, well, it has a nice ring to it. >> that's great.

>> i miss the blackberry. >> how about the clunky bulky phones when i was working in hartford, connecticut, the news at 10, i used that clunker and a typewriter definitely have come a long way or another way of saying that was like 30 years ago. and you were all using cell phones this guy uses a flip phone now he's begin up the iphone >> it's just the amount of time that devours and the distraction, it's insanity i think about how successful people were with their time before smart phones came along it just makes a lot more sense to have the flip phone. >> absolutely. that brings us to brand up/brand down with donny deutsch. first on your list are dumb phones tell us about the dumb dumb

phone. >> joe, once again, you're ahead of the curve noek ya has released their sales. sales are dramatically up for them i actually think there's a huge marketing opportunity for young people i don't think you should start your kids with a smart phone delay that as long as possible obviously we want to get in touch with our kids, but they don't need the smart phone i think there's a huge opportunity for flip phones. >> it can have detection on it so it can track your kids but it shouldn't have the internet and all these apps two on the list, college education, brand down? >> 56% of people think it's not worth it versus 42%. only ten years ago that was in reverse. there's $1.7 trillion of college

debt it's just the four-year degree doesn't mean that much anymore, particularly with the ability of young people to start businesses with less barrier to entry college is one of those institutions that was our bedrock, not an absolute with young people anymore. >> we all showed up today and going to work is brand up. >> yes this is really good news joe, you and i have talked a lot about this i've been a huge proponent of staying home and hybrid workplace is nota good idea fo work all of a sudden they're doing research and finally for the first time since the pandemic more people are going back to work it used to be 46% of workers were not going to work that's good for business i can't tell you how much it hurts young people when they're not at work. >> the next one is paid time off is brand down. explain that.

>> yeah. actually almost half the people in the workplace don't take all their paid time off. that's vacation time, personal days and sick days a lot of reasons they don't do it particularly lower wage income earners are afraid it might cost them their job >> levi, which you claim is brand down and crocs which is brand up if i have old levi's, i shouldn't wear them with my crocs? >> levi's are taking a lot of gruff lately because they're going to start to use artificial intelligence models and not real people models. this is the first of hundreds of corporate issues of artificial intelligence replacing human beings they're saying they're not going to fire our models, it just

allows us to get our clothes out there faster ai versus humans is going to be the wrestle mania of the future. crocs is a company that went crazy during the pandemic. business is up 200% over the last three years a lot of companies like peloton and zoom have come down to earth. crocs is going to do $5 billion. they have almost 7 billion followers on facebook. >> so jay-z hasn't put out much in the way of new music lately, but he's brand up now. >> $2.5 billion net worth. if you look at other celebrities, a lot of these people are making more money from business. of course he makes records but

he's got other businesses. so the celebrity has learned there's more money in being a ceo than being a celebrity >> i'm skipping to little debbie swiss rolls cereal. >> i'm going to make your month. little debbie which makes those swiss rolls. >> i love those. >> now you can get them in cereal. >> no, no, no. >> can you imagine after a night out coming home and being able to have little debbie swiss roll cereal. >> that's disgusting. >> a lot of sour news out there and then there's this. >> amazing my grandmother would say this is gracious plenty. i thank you for bringing this

good news. coming up, tesla's elon musk and apple's steve woz knee ak are among the tech leaders now calling for a pause in woronk advanced artificial intelligence we will dig into the debate dividing the industry straight ahead on "morning joe. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, steve woz ncaa cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. niak it's two injections, giveny long-acting hiv treatment youmy healthcare provider,nth.

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♪priceline♪ ♪ ♪ a live look at los angeles where it's ten before 7:00 a.m. in l.a >> welcome back. i want to show the front page of the "wall street journal" and, of course, headline across the top involves obviously a "wall street journal" reporter

"wall street journal" reporter evan gershkovich jonahn lemire than lemire, thers been this issue. paul whelan as well as evan gershkovich, a reporter just going out and doing his job and being seized by vladimir putin again, this guy has already been accused of war crimes, charged with war crimes. he's just proving he does not expect to be any time in the near future a respected member of the international community this only hurts russia in the long run. >> no. another escalation from putin, already speculation that he'll try to hold this journalist for some sort of swap to get someone out of western custody secretary of state blinken in a rare phone call with sergey

lavrov of russia urged this reporter to be released, other prisoners as well. no budge from russia at this point. in fact, this "wall street journal" reporter being held in prison until his trial begins some time in may all right. over a thousand technology leaders across the industry are causing for a pause in the development of artificial intelligence until more guidelines are put in place. >> those leaders signed a letter that argues those in the ai field are, quote, locked in in and out-of-control race to develop and deploy evermore powerful digital minds that no one, not even creators can understand, predict or reliably control. because of that they're calling for an immediate pause of at least six months until shared safety protocols are developed joining us, co-founder and executive director for the center for humane technology, tristan harris, he signed the

open letter supporting the pause. i think on a smaller level, this is like maybe looking at social media before you let it out of the box and see the damage it has created across the board. >> exactly. >> speaking of social media, elon musk has been warning about this for quite some time, hasn't he >> yeah, he has. you mentioned social media with our experience with the social dilemma, one of the things we saw with social media is after you let it get entangled with your society, with politics, with elections, with journalism, it sort of warps and becomes the basis of everything else. once it's entangled it's hard to pull social media back out and regulate it, as we've seen the point i think of this letter is that ai is moving so fast, the pace of deployment far exceeds the pace of safety in the letter in our op-ed at

"the new york times" we cite a study that 50% of ai researchers surveyed believe there's a 10% or greater chance that humanity goes extinct or similarly disempowered for not being able to control ai. that would be like getting on a 737 air 34r5e7b and 50% of the engineers are saying if you get on this plane, there's a 10% or greater chance that from our inability to control the plane, the plane goes down. we're not saying ai is bad we're not saying ai is wrong it's just that the people who actually founded the field -- the signatories in the letter include stewart russell who wrote the textbook on artificial intelligence when the people building it are saying, hey, this is being released at a pace that's too reckless, we're not going to get it right at this pace. let's move at a pace that we can get this right. >> tristan, whenever you talk about ai with anybody familiar with it, you run into two sides of the coin. on one side they say this could

perhaps give us a cure for cancer artificial intelligence could perhaps give us a quick cure for cancer the other side, especially if you talk to people knowledgeable about ai that work in the pentagon, they say, whoa, this is such a dangerous development, we better slow it down what do you think to be the most elemental danger right now about this pursuit of sophisticated artificial intelligence? >> well, there's a few things to say. first of all, ai will be able to offer unbelievable benefits, novel insights, inventing solutions to climate change, cancer drugs, all these incredible benefits because you're basically summoning a god-like intelligence reading the entire internet and able to reason more and more about solutions for some of our problems that's are amazing benefits. the problem is, if those benefits land in a society that has been pulled apart because of the flood of misinformation -- in our op-ed in "the new york

times" we talk about how democracy runs on language language is the operating system of humanity. this country ar good itself into existence with language. when ai can flood the zone with misinformation and propaganda at scale, an unbelievable scale -- everybody has probably seen those photos of trump getting harnessed by police and pulled away, imagine you're able to produce that at scale. if people don't know what's true, those benefits from ai will land in society that doesn't have a working social contract if you look at social media -- think about social media where it doesn't matter what science we have to produce amazing mrna vaccines if it hands in a society that due to social media disagrees about the benefits or safety of vaccines what mattered more the science that produced the vaccine or the culture of social trust that received the vaccine. >> co-founder of the center for

humane technology, tristan harris, through. we'll have to have you back. there's so many other issues connected with this. >> the question you always ask about china. >> we'll have you back because this conversation is a big one we appreciate your coming on this morning tomorrow we'll be back here hours before, if nothing changes, the indictment of former president trump. >> jonathan lemire, white house reporter for politico, final thoughts on that >> it's an historic moment we've never been here before donald trump set to leave mar-a-lago in about two hours' time to fly to new york city we'll expect him to be early morning in a courthouse tomorrow in lower manhattan american politics at an inflection point tomorrow. >> he's been indicted, but that, of course, for his arraignment. jose diaz-balart and yasmin vossoughian pick up the coverage in two minutes my heart's pretty good. you sure? i think so. how do you know?

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