officers, and of course there's all the stuff you don't see. remember that the security preparations for tomorrow started more than two weeks ago. it was the initial report by nbc news that security preparations for the possibility of this moment were underway that is what triggered donald trump in the first place to post that he thought he would be arrested the following tuesday. and so, you know, there's a significant security apparatus put in place so much so that the secret service has made it clear they're going to be very conservative, it's very unlikely we'll see much of a hair from donald trump's head when he gets to the courthouse tomorrow morning. >> got you thank you so much, garrett, our thanks to karen friedman agnifilo, barbara mcquade, that's going to do it for me today. "dea "deadline white house" starts now. i'm nicolle wallace. you're watching on the other

side of the screen, a motorcade escort of the indicted twice impeached ex-president donald trump. he is on route from his airport which landed at laguardia to manhattan to his apartment in trump tower. he will reportedly stay the night there ahead of his history making arrangement in the alleged hush money scheme. tomorrow there are a lot of open questions, a lot of vital considerations being made. even at this late hour first, security. as you might well imagine, the nypd is well aware of the possibility, the potential for violence tomorrow somewhere. as trump has previously called on his supporters to protest in a statement to nbc news, the nypd reveals this, quote, officers have been placed on alert and the department remains ready to respond as needed they add this, quote, there are no current credible threats to new york city. ahead of the big day tomorrow, we're on the lookout for any specifics related to the actual charges that trump now faces sources telling nbc news he

faces about 30 criminal charges, very likely related to payments made to adult film star stormy daniels back in 2016 it's something trump has previously denied. as of this moment, the actual indictment remains under seal. we should tell you because this is one of those things that could change over the next two hours. nbc news this weekend joined a coalition of other news organizations in making two requests, in the interests of transparency, and the public interest the first that the indictment be immediately unsealed, the second that cameras be allowed to watch donald trump's arraignment live as it happens. this afternoon, in a letter to the judge, trump's lawyers insisted that cameras not be allowed inside the courtroom so whether or not we get to watch this historic moment in court is just one of a number of open questions at this hour about how tomorrow will go it is all fluid. we expect trump to be processed at the courthouse.

we expect it's been reported that he will be finger printed and that he will hear the charges. we do not expect trump at any point to be handcuffed or put in a holding cell dna will likely not be collected and whether or not a mug shot is taken is still one of those unknown and unclear issues we do know that trump will leave court under his own free will, and that he plans to travel back to florida before speaking out very publicly about the case against him tomorrow night the eve of an unprecedented moment in american history is where we begin today, former u.s. attorney, former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman joins us. former rnc chairman, michael steele, former senator claire mccaskill is back, and i start with you michael steele, i guess

we could argue it was going to end like this in early 2015 when we urged republicans not to take this path, but here we are >> here we are yes, a lot of us warned, you know, and waved our arms and flailed about trying to say that this is not only bad branding for the gop but it is bad politics for the country and we've watched over the last seven years the complete and utter disintegration of a once great party, and this is the gop right here on your screen. the head of the party on its way to be processed as a criminal defendant. and the party leadership silent and when they do speak, it's just to reinforce their fealty to the man if i can take a moment i'm annoyed that we're watching this unfold this way because

donald trump is in his car loving every minute of it. because at the end of the day, we're talking about him. it's still all about him he's going to go back after this process tomorrow and talk and rail and incite more noise about it it will be covered, and we are in this loop, nicolle, that we seemingly as a country can't get ourself out of for the last seven, eight years, we have talked about one person and one person only incessantly in our politics, and that's trump. and we're looking at moments like this, and we're saying we're not outraged by it we're not turned off by it we're not disgusted by it, we're actually intrigued and we're curious, and it literally is like watching a reality tv series, and this is the next episode. and so, yeah, from both a party standpoint and a country standpoint, we're at a very, i

think, seminole moment where we have to do some hard core soul searching and reevaluating of what our priorities are. this shouldn't be it. >> you made this very meta from the outside. let's stay here. i too share your queasiness with what we are watching, but i would pause at this, for eight years he's been in charge, and today he's not we're not taking a motorcade because trump announced a rally in manhattan we're taking a motorcade because trump has to appear in court tomorrow to be arraigned because someone finally has the, hmm, you know what, if he committed this crime he should, perhaps if a jury decides he's guilty of it, beheld accountable the way the rest of us are this is different in some ways, michael steele, is it not? >> it is and i get that i really do. but if there wasn't all of this obsession beforehand, i mean, go

back three weeks what were we doing three weeks ago today? we were having a conversation about trump being arrested on tuesday when we knew damn well it wasn't happening. you know how we didn't know it was happening, nicolle, because the d.a. didn't tell it was happening on tuesday we listened to trump, and we go down that rabbit hole with him, and i do appreciate the point you just made about why this motorcade is different from one going to a rally, but in one sense, it really isn't it is part of a continuation of a fascination and infestation in my view of our politics with the curiosity of the show, and not the just sheer like affront of what it is we're looking at. that's where i draw the line. >> i'm so glad you stir this up and i'm dying to get claire and

and let's get this right, as a show i think the gaslighting, how much money he's raised, if you raise $80 million or two, i don't care and the notion that the indictment is somehow bumped into the top of the heap, he was already at the top of the heap, you got desantis gasping for air because disney kicked him in the knee the notion that the indictment has done something good for him politically is pure gaslighting from his camp, and that's sort of where i draw some wonder that we're still falling for that >> i agree with that i think you're absolutely right. 5 million and counting so far. certainly what's going to happen tomorrow night is already being previewed for us right? it's already kind of being set

in motion. anticipating, salivating, what he's going to say, after spending a day getting processed. there's no other criminal -- he's a criminal defendant, people he is no different from the brother standing on that corner that his motorcade is about to pass, and should be accorded the same way in my view. if they came and knocked me and drug me out of here, i wouldn't have cameras at the front door someone put out a press release. he got processed this is what i'm talking about that frustrates a lot of americans, this bifurcation we claim we don't have in our system as we augment and show it anyway as something that is real i think we need to be careful, the next 18 months is going to be this. is going to be this. and i think we need to understand that from the outset and just be smart and prepared about it cover it, but cover it smartly.

>> i like that we started here, i feel like the chairman has elevated our discourse and added a layer of responsibility that we should have again, i argue that this is not a maga rally, he's headed to court to be arraigned and finger printed. we may or may not see it as a country, but this is important. >> michael gave a word, and first and foremost, i want to give a shout out to law enforcement here to the secret service agents and the nypd and the mayor who has briefed the city and said, look, if you don't start something, won't be nothing. >> biggest moment of the mayor's career today, i thought? >> it is in many ways, it is. we speak a lot about the militarization of the our police departments and we're talking about criminal justice reform but the reality is that new york city police department is prepared for this, and at a moment's notice, they can get called up and be able to act decisively if there is any

trouble. having said that, i think michael's absolutely right, you know, he talked about a reality show, and what's interesting is when you look at reality shows, and you say, oh, my god, i'm glad i'm not them. the reality is that there are a lot of americans that see themselves in donald trump, and i understand everything michael is saying. for me, everything that we have and will discuss, like the amount of money we raised, about $7 million those things are data points for me they're data points because they show a trend in who america is, and how that america is going to treat me and the people that i care about. and i'm very very focused on that because if it's a matter -- if the mayor has to come on tv with his police commissioner and address the supporters of donald trump, whether they gave him money or not, that means that my life and the life of the people that i care about are in danger. to me, this is actually the most

dangerous time because trump can be performative here whether he is gagged at the end of the day or not, he will find a way to communicate to his supporters what to do and whatnot to do, and if he feels threatened that we already know he's gone after the judge, after the district attorney, if he feels threatened, he might communicate to any and all of his supporters what to do next and that is what scares me tremendously >> me too. i would say stand back and stand by took months to percolate and s simmer, and it was in the pod changing form, changing, they heard it they made t-shirts, they processed it they watched events, and then they acted on it on january 6th. >> and i agree but, you know, with everything that was said, we should not be normalizing this it is not normal that a former president of the united states gets arrested and will be arraigned. that is not normal again, i go back to the point,

it is important to know what the fallout is going to be because it will affect the end line. >> it affects all of us. garrett haake, do you want to say something, michael >> just real quick i was at an event, to your earlier point. i was at an event a while back, where a former president was there. this was not what greeted us when we came to that event, and that's my point. all of this was not how a former president of the united states arrives at a location. they don't block off blocks. there are no motorcades, there's none of that they are private citizens who happen to be a former president, and accorded the projection that they well deserve, but this is what i'm talking about donald trump, there's no difference between donald trump walking in that building and joe biden right now, and that's the problem as i see it. >> i completely agree. claire, we saw the back of his head we know his hair and head is of

great concern to him he once refused to attend a military ceremony in europe to honor the troops because hi hair would get messed up. you got to imagine he spent a long time on what his hair would look like for the walk we just saw. claire mccaskill, jump in on all of this? >> let me say, i believe your show has some of the best producers in the business, and i get there's going to be a debate over how much coverage we give this guy underthese circumstances. i will say this, i think the most interesting split screen might be what impact did j-6 have on what's happening today and tomorrow the split screen might be the tens upon thousands of people that gathered when he said it's going to be wild, and the massive amounts of people who turned out, and the relatively sparse crowds that lined his

route to trump tower today tomorrow we'll see we'll see, we've had a lot of lessons from january 6th that we're seeing right now we're seeing preparation by the police, active listening and monitoring and communication among those folks who watch things online to see if there's any credible threats maybe the most important thing we're getting to see is deterrence our people deterred from coming out and being violent against law enforcement because of what happened on january 6th. has the trump base learned their lesson about resorting to overthrowing our government, or trying to overthrow police officers just to be -- show how loyal they are to donald trump if today is any indication, there has been huge deterrence, either that or this guy is off the steam because i guarantee

you he's depressed right now because in his pea brain, he thought he was going to see thousands and thousands of people lining the route, cheering him on, and in reality, there ain't much there there were 50, 75 people on the side of the road, not a big crowd. >> not a big crowd >> that's an interesting split screen, maybe more interesting, with all due respect to the wonderful producers you have than the split screen with our mugs and the highway >> our producers are brilliant, and they are the best in the business and so i'll underscore that point, and they have availed to us someone who's got sort of situational awareness and that is my colleague, nbc's garrett haake who's outside the courthouse not where trump is for those of you not familiar with new york city, trump lives uptown on fifth avenue near where all the fancy shops are and romcoms, the courthouse is way downtown

give us what you understand to be the preparations. pick up on claire's point about deterrence being one of the aims of law enforcement today in new york city? >> reporter: yeah, nicolle, 4 miles south of trump tower at the courthouse, we have seen over the last two weeks, the time i have spent on this street corner watching this courthouse and the d.a.'s office for signs of an impending indictment the security footprint grows substantially. more barricades going up more uniformed officers from the nypd, and from the new york court's department that protect this area, being sort of more present and more visibly present, and to senator mccaskill's point, i was here two weeks ago at the first planned protest outside this courthouse but only a few dozen people showed up to protest on the former president's behalf. and so you have seen this very robust posture from the nypd, a deterrence posture to be sure to say we are here, we are prepared and we'll see what happens if you decide to show up and test

that now, we know that late last week, representatives from the secret service were here f, from other law enforcement agencies, scoping out the courthouse, trying to figure out what's the best way to bring the formal president in with a minimal amount of exposure for security purposes and publicity purposes, we are unlikely to see a shot a second ago, with him stepping out waving we might see less than that tomorrow when he arrives here. the streets are narrow and tight. this would be the location for protests and the secret service does not want to screw around with that. they want to get in and out with a minimum amount of disruption, something that the mayor underscored at his news conference today, the points about deterrence and january 6th and other protests, mayor adams and some of the other officials who spoke at the same press conference today, we've seen no indication of specific threats, no indications of large numbers of people coming here. the kind of sort of smaller scale protests, first amendment

action that new york city handles on a daily if not hourly basis. >> and i mean, new york city is, as ambabasil alluded to, well trained in this area of first amendment right to speech and right to assembly are honored, but they offer unbelievable intelligence gathering i think it's a police department where intelligence capacity is studied the world over, and from that perspective, do you have any readout about what kind of people may be in new york today and tomorrow who aren't normally here >> well, i can only report the lack of information on that, nicolle. both from your city's perspective, and from the reporting that we have been able to do at nbc, there's no indication of the kind of outside groups that sort of flock to washington, d.c. and the lead up to january 6th making similar trips to manhattan. eric adams made that point in his news conference today. he said, you know, the

intelligence department that you speak of at the nypd stood up after 9/11 is the gold standard for how this is done domestically, and if they picked up on something they were not warning about publicly, nor can i tell you about significant reporting my colleagues and i have done at nbc, suggesting anything more than political tourism here perhaps in the form of marjorie taylor greene, and other republican congress people who want to come and share their own personal loyalty to the former president, in terms of the massive outside groups that get law enforcement agencies worried about protests turning into violence, i have heard nothing. >> it's really a fascinating point, and we'll see if this is a conversation you and i come back to as we're on the air together tomorrow. garrett, you heard some of michael steele's admonitions at the top of the hour how he covered trump. you're the best we have, and you were on this story

what do you think about that >> reporter: i tried to stay away from media criticism as a way of protecting my day job here's the point i'll make to what he had to say with donald trump unlike any other candidate i have ever covered, it's impossible to separate the personal, legal challenges and the political opportunism. you can't say we're only going to cover donald trump the political candidate and not cover the way he tries to take advantage of his own legal challenges this is a legal story or this is a political story. that's impossible. his campaign spent the entire flight pumping out e-mails to juice their funding and announced what their fundraising totals were on a flight stacked with campaign officials going to an arraignment, which is not a campaign event in the traditional sense. like everyone else, watching a motorcade that looks reminiscent of oj simpson is not what you expect to see from political coverage this is not a candidate who has ever ascribed to normal

political rules and so as strange as it is, the ven diagram between the trump campaign, and legal apparatus and problem solving lawyers and what have you, that diagram is a circle you cannot separate these things, and we have to cover them together. >> i think of it as like a messy pile of branches or something on a neat circle. i really appreciate your analysis, and thank you for jumping in on that bigger conversation let me add to this specific conversation, my colleague, also the best in the biusiness, dasha burns, live outside trump tower in manhattan, where trump did an evita like wave, how many people did he see when he pulled up, and what happens now >> reporter: to those viewers that do not live in new york city, let me just set the scene here this is midtown manhattan. we're on the corner of 57th and 5th avenue, and this is an area

where a lot of tourists gather normally folks here are headed to the lego store or doing window shopping. today a lot of people making their way through here have been coming by and stopping and asking us where is the former president, what is the latest? what is going on and so as they heard that he was getting closer, the crowds here grew just about everyone in this area has had their cell phones out, documenting every moment for the last half hour or so realizing that this is, as we use the word perhaps too much, it is warranted and unprecedented time in history. right now, there is a pretty big crowd that has gathered just across the street from trump tower, caddy corner to the building, right now, a massive crowd gathered there as he was entering the building. police hospelicopters up above. throughout the day, there's been a heavy police presence, barricades around here, tough to move in and out of the area

throughout the day today, and of course a massive media presence here as well in terms of protests, it has been quiet today today just a lot of curiosity. not a lot of action in terms of pro or anti-protesters a couple of folks with flags gathered not anything to worry about. tomorrow is the day when all eyes will really be on the city, and mayor eric adams gave a briefing where he talked about how the city is preparing. said there is no credible threat right now, but he did issue a warning to what he called rebel rowsers coming to the city to air grievances he told folks to behave themselves in no uncertain terms. he expects peaceful protests but of course the nypd is ready for anything these are crazy types, nicolle. >> crazy times for the city. unprecedented times for us as a country. i want to bring harry litman in.

as a legal process, this happens as a couple of folks have said, this happens every day i want to go through the normal part of the story. what will happen to trump that happens to everybody who has been charged with 30 felony counts >> he'll show up he'll be in a sort of interview room as opposed to a holding cell he'll come in. we probably won't see it they're going to try to keep it as buttoned down, notwithstanding msnbc's motion he'll hear the charges, and i think, by the way, the indictment has to come out from under seal a little bit before 2:15 osso he can absorb them an say he understands them to judge merchan, how does he plead, not guilty and much more will ensue, but not with his presence. hearing everything, the words that struck me as a former prosecutor is lack of ultimate

control. there is the feel here of a reality show but he's not the guy at the end of the day. might be a long day, but he's not the guy that gets to say, you're fired in fact, he may be the guy that gets voted off the island, depending on what the new york jury does. all of this pageantry or political, has a backdrop of a serious process that at the end of the day is going to decide his fate, not voters and not the sort of, you know, attack politics what lies behind this is a sober process that he does not control. >> i mean, it is a good way, i think, to buy a little bit of patience from michael steele for our coverage today, but also to look at these live events differently. we have to grapple with this tomorrow or come on the air tomorrow donald trump coming in and out of the courtroom, and i hope you'll all be back to help us sift through them responsibly.

the other question i have for you, harry, through a legal lens not a legal lens through the lens of the judge in this case, how will his conduct be viewed differently than it is through any of us trying to analyze it politically >> two ways, the judge merchan who presided over the previous trial of the trump organization, has to worry about first, the polluting of the jury pool with all of this histrionics. second, the safety of court personnel. bragg received a death threat. even though the things he's doing might not rise to a level of a crime given the first amendment, he will have the power to impose a gag order, something everyone is looking to tomorrow, will he do it or will he wait. in a very tailored way we have the unprecedented situation that someone is running for president. don't name people by name, don't talk about the case, what has to at the end of the day be invoked

is a short stay in jail because he'll impose the gag order, if trump continues to violate a warning, another warning, another warning but at the end of the day, he'll have to say mr. trump, next time this happens, i'm going to put you in jail, and having said that, he has no way out it will be a very long string. that's the kind of lack of ultimate control, another kind that i had in mind. >> harry, i think his lawyer, joe tacopictna has the same concern, quote, we're not doing anything at the arraignment because that would be showmanship and nothing more i mean, it sounds like warning received that they are aware that any antics tomorrow could really jeopardize trump the defendant.

>> warning received by joe tacopina, warning received by donald trump >> that's fair >> he may love this moment, we don't really know, but i got to imagine jail, you talk about his hair just think about that, and in the pokey. it's a bridge too far. i think that has to be something he is really afraid of, and again, the judge has the power in a tailored way to keep him from threatening people and polluting the yur pool. >> claire, i think i cut you off. >> no, first of all i don't know how you pollute this jury pool harry is right, this is what would normally happen. but this will be the most difficult jury selection in the history of a criminal trial in this country you know, the jury selection is called voir dire, and that process is going to be very very tricky because there's no one that hasn't heard of this man

and this case. people are asking, why aren't they taking his dna, and the reason they are not taking his dna and may not do a mug shot, that process is a process to help identify someone if they commit another crime in this instance, the government has donald trump's dna, and it's not like he reads a mug shot everybody knows who he is, what he looks like. maybe the most history making thing tomorrow, nicolle, is that for the first time in his life, donald trump does not want a camera i'm not sure that's ever happened before. so he likes the idea of being a victim he likes the idea of fund regulate raising off this. he likes the idea of, you know, enabling his supporters to see him as being persecuted by a government out of control. but at the end of the day, i'm not sure he's excited about then seeing him stand in front of a judge and being accountable to a judge as harry just indicated.

i mean, he doesn't have complete control. i'm not sure that he would ever go to jail for contempt. but i'm also pretty sure that his lawyers are every day trying to convince him to zip it, at least long enough to get in proceeding underway and in a way that the judge does not start out with limits on his ability to speak >> yeah, michael steele, i want to bring you in on this, and i guess i would -- you have shaped and framedly framed my thoughts for the day. there's this allergy to control. he wouldn't control the shot he wouldn't control, you know, the questioning. he would have to be responding to the judge you understand the charges against you. i wonder if that diminishment is something that isn't even lost on donald j. trump >> no, it's not. i think he's very much aware of

that, which is why, from three weeks ago, he wants to set moment at least some level of the terms in which he wants to engage in this process he wants to have some narratives in place that did you ever buf buffers him, makes people feel he will come and fight for them, do things for him for the rally. it doesn't matter that there's 75 people on the corner, the fact that there's 75 people on the corner, okay, cool, but he knows in the broader network of people who support and i'll use that term love him, and will do for him, that his sway is even stronger and growing, and that's all that matters for a guy like trump. it's not about, oh, yeah, he knows this isn't a rally where he needs 25,000 people in the stands to prove a point. he's already proved the point. proved this three weeks ago when he was that he was going to be

arrested, not the d.a., and everybody went down the rabbit hole with him. and that's he wants us to be that's the space he controls because he knows what kis going to go around next, we todon't. we just kind of follow, and like all good rabbit holes, they go deep deeper and deeper and turn he probably doesn't want the cameras in there for a lot of reasons, but beyond that, he's already making his point, and he's already got our attention, and we're only going to tell the narrative at least to some degree the way he wants it told. and that matters more to donald trump, whether there's 75 people in the corner or their cameras in the corner. >> i just want to, if the last few minutes, the theme is some level of donald trump's humility i want to add this point, the

much maligned alvin bragg is at the is there of this through 2016, donald trump maligned judges, prosecutors, he maligned generals, which you remember, and what's amazing -- >> fbi director, defense secretary, saecretary of state, senators but alvin bragg is the third district attorney in the last 48 years in that seat he is the 6th in the last 80 years, and by the diversity of the man and his ideology people are going to be threatened by that you have already seen donald trump go after him republicans have certainly gone after him. i want folks to remember at the end of the day, all that donald trump said and did, it was this black man who brought him back to new york to face account nlt. that's amazing justice

>> i want to come back to the legal part of the story with you, harry litman. i'm not going to play it because we have had to watch live pictures of donald trump, but just take my word for it john bolton and bill barr were on tv making different points about basically how awful it would be if trump were acquitted. and bill barr was talking about what a hideous witness trump would be in mhis own defense, because he can't stop lying. i'm paraphrasing, but those are their points talk about rabbit holes, i'm down at the bottom of mueller mania when everyone said you can't sit down with mueller, he's lying, get him charged with perjury. everyone knows who he is the people saw him up close as our country's kmeech,commander f know how pathologically lying he

is does any of that have a legal significance are we in a phase where the legal process simply follows the facts and the course of the law? >> you bet, and that's how i have been thinking of t tit, though, again, it will be a long time i like both point because they're focused on just the process. think about it, it really is the case, the worst clinent in the world who has collected 3,000 lives. i want a blood bath. he can nottake the stand if you think about that in the terms o. trial upcoming, that maintains a hot of restraints and getting everyday forward and how they look, et cetera if you fill it, this is an exceptional period because everything about the case is going to be braided with total political sturman strong and a great stress test. the jury will one day fit, and

if you think about how both sides come forward with what they have to say, that's what really matters there will be silence until then it's a long day, at least public silence by the d.a. while motions go back and forth and the like it's a very significant point, when push comes to shove, this guy can't testify, and it really matters for some of the, you know, bragadosio he's showing. it looks to me, he's making an enormous bet because everything he does makes his trial legal processes work he somehow thinks if he can just get by and i guess be elected president, it would be a game changer, and it would. that's a big bet >> yeah, i mean, and that was his bet all along. i mean, that's why he fought -- that's why he staged january 6th. that's why he wanted the military to seize the voting machines, and it's all about shielding himself from legal exposure and a lot of the

bookings after the presidency bear that out. i need all of you to stay with us this can't stop anytime soon when we come back, the ex-president has made history by being the first president to be criminally indicted. he may make history again by being indicted more than once. we'll talk about that with former january 6th select committee member congresswoman zoe lofgren next, and while we still don't know the charges coming out of the manhattan d.a. e 's office we're getting a better clearer picture about what crimes prosecutors are looking at in the mar-a-lago documents case, there's incredible reporting in the "washington post" that we'll tell you about later in the show. don't go anywhere.

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that's service on our time. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ as all of us watching today's coverage know and as we gird ourselves for the days and weeks to come, it's worth remembering that the wheels of justice grind very slowly, and this is likely the beginning of the beginning in what is sure to be a long process in efforts to hold the twice impeached disgraced now indicted criminally ex-president accountable, knowing we're only at the start of this there also comes the realization that there's still a lot we don't know including the possibility of the ex-president also becoming the first president ever to face multiple indictments it's possible. as we await the result of investigations into the classified documents, he

squirrelled away at his mar-a-lago home, and his attempts to overturn the 2020 election results because he lost as well as potential interference in the fulton county georgia election result with all the unknowns, there are things about trump we do know. things that for years he's done, and will continue to do despite the legal woes he faces. one of them is something our next guest once coined the big grift. after news of his indictment broke, the former president's campaign claims they raised millions of dollars in the first 24 hours from his supporters they're now saying that number is up to 7 million joining us, democratic congresswoman, zoe lofgren of california, she served as an impeachment manager, and of course made regular appearances on this program to keep us abreast of the world of the january 6th select committee i thought of your public presentation in the january 6th select committee's public hearings and the big grift because it's happening again, batesed on garrett haake's

reporting on aboard the skies in palm beach and manhattan is there any recourse for raising money from someone's political supporters to pay your personal legal bills >> well, there are fac issues. there are some rules that you can raise funds in a political campaign and legally use them for -- to defend yourself. i don't know what representations he's made in his e-mails to his followers, nor whether he has taken the steps necessary to legitimatize the expenditure on legal fees, but, you know, the ex-president takes any opportunity to raise money from his core supporters and he's doing that again. >> well, waving money if his core support skers and cozying p

to images, is the story the select committee told in public hearings and final report. when you see him reposting and disseminating images of the baseball bat and alvin bragg's face, and raising however much he's raised from his supporters at a time when he faces criminal exposure because of money he illegally accounted for in silencing allegedly a porn star, where do your thoughts go? >> well, i'm very concerned about his rhetoric, which is actually even more over the top than in the days and weeks and months preceding january 6th whether or not his core supporters will respond with the same kind of mob violence that we saw on january 6th, i certainly hope not, and from the press reports it looks like the social media does not indicate

the kind of mob violence that was planned and executed on january 6th. however, we all know that there were unhinged people in our country who do respond to requests to engage in violence you don't have to have every person who's a supporter of a political candidate to respond it's just those people who are on the edge who might be feeling that the president is asking them to take it back to the district attorney's head i just think it would be much preferable for our country and not to incite violence, to treat this as the way it should be treated. charges will be unveiled tomorrow the ex-president is entitled to due process. a presumption of innocence unless convicted and we'll see this play out.

i think it's important for all of us to stand up and support our government, our system of government, the constitution, and unfortunately once again, it doesn't look like the ex-president is in that spot >> i mean, alvin bragg is a particularly intense focus for trump and his supporters because he's gone first. we've had a lot of conversations about where doj was. merrick garland wasn't there until march after the insurrection, it is clear from the oud thtside that the eventse not under close screwutiny. >> why didn't you charge the hush money case? why didn't you ever charge it in 2018, 2019, 2020 >> i don't want to get into the deliberations that might be covered by grand jury material,

but as i believe you know, i was asked by the u.s. attorneys office in the southern district to stand down on our investigation. as someone who respects that office a great deal and believing they may have perhaps the best laws to investigate, i did so but i think the question was not so much why didn't i do it, or we did it, but why this district attorney is doing it, and that really requires us to be patient, and to wait this process isn't going to be accelerated by us talking about it it's going to be moved by the court at the pace the court sees fit, and i guarantee the court will want this to move quickly. have you ever heard of the southern district of new york or attorneys office telling a local prosecutor to quote stand down on something they didn't bring >> well, i was fairly alarmed by the testimony of the interview that you just played you know, i have been involved in cases, for example, when i

chair the house ethics committee where we will be investigating a member of congress, and the department of justice would ask us to back off because they're bringing an action, and we always did because we didn't want to ruin their investigation and potential criminal indictment i've never been in a u.s. attorney or in their office. i don't know what the pattern is, but certainly if the doj has a clearer path forward and asks a prosecutor to stand pat while they pursue it, that would not be a surprise, but what is a surprise is that they didn't actually pursue that, and then the question is was it done basically to protect the president? was it ever their intent to bring this case, and did they interfere with the district attorney's office just to protect the president?

that's what came to my mind when i saw that it was a concern. >> yeah, i mean, and the time frame he gives us is '17 and '18, obviously donald trump was president, bill barr was attorney general but that office found that donald trump coordinated and directed the hush money scheme to two women, karen mcdougal and stormy daniels and told cy vance in that two-year period to stand down would you like to know whether or not merrick garland looked at the evidence when he became attorney general and that office was no longer under the thumb of bill barr? >> well, if he hasn't yet, i imagine the interview yesterday will cause some people to take a look it's interesting that the department took the position based on office of legal counsel paper that a sitting president couldn't be indicted and yet asked the local prosecutor to withhold on their investigation.

so i don't know any more than what's been put in the public arena, but this doesn't smell so good and i think somebody ought to look into it. >> from your lips, congresswoman. your lips. it doesn't smell good. and i think if we believe that sunlight is the greatest disinfectant i think it's the best thing we've got going based on the work of your committee. i think there are a lot of questions at a minimum congresswoman zoe lofgren, always great to talk to you, especially on a monumental day of news like today thank you for spending time with us we have to sneak in another quick break. we will all be right back.

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if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. gallbladder problems may occur. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking rybelsus® with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. need to get your a1c down? you may pay as little as $10 per prescription. we're back with harry, michael, claire and basil. something the congresswoman said, something just doesn't smell right, begs the question will the truth emerge about everything trump did to shield himself from criminal exposure as the president >> well, there's some interesting reporting recently that alvin bragg actually took a case that was moribund and started from the very beginning

and in painstaking detail tried to reconstruct everything. if that really is the case, it suggests that even though there was concern around what ultimate evidence was there that alvin bragg did this in a very careful and deliberative manner. having said that, the quinnipiac poll last week said that 93% of republicans think this is politically motivated. 72% independents think that it is as well that should be a little concerning for democrats because those independents were very helpful in 2022. having said that, democrats should be careful not to overplay their hand, just let alvin bragg do what he has been doing and be careful and methodical about how this is playing out. even if it doesn't end in him in an orange jumpsuit, it's important to note that he is being held accountable in this regard alvin bragg got him from florida, brought him back to new york >> not on his own free ill i mean, the schedule was not

done by him. michael steele, i want to come back to withar you started let me just ask you this i think we've seen the tip of the iceberg in terms of what went on to shield trump from exposure bhat congresswoman said, she chooses these words very carefully, something smelds in the sdny disposition of the incidents for which donald trump will be arraigned on 30 felony counts tomorrow. do you believe that we will get to the bottom of why he's never been held accountable before >> i hope so i hope that there is not just accountability for donald trump but accountability within the system itself that looks back on the decisions that were made and the choices that came out of those decisions around how to move forward on the evidence that was in front of them. and i think the congresswoman is right. to hear the former d.a. say the words he said really raises the questions about, well, what

exactly were you asked to stand down for and why and what were the circumstances? so there's more to this narrative, as there are with everything dealing with trump. there's another rabbit hole out there waiting for us but i'm hoping that the leadership inside doj and the d.a.'s office are prepared to fully explain to us, particularly if this goes a certain way, if a conviction is gotten in this case, what happened what's the difference between then and now >> claire, i've talked about trump as sort of political greene, the body is sick, it can't regenerate itself. i wonder if the bar at doj doesn't represent some legal gangrene >> quickly let m say there is nothing unusual about a u.s. attorney office to asking a state attorney to stand down while they are investigating a

crime. it happens every day in this case they asked him to stand down when they were investigating michael sxhoen they indicted michael cohen at sdny they did not indict individual number 1 because he was a sitting president. so the real stink here comes from when trump left the presidency and there was a decision -- by the way, that was under jeff sessions, not bill barr jeff sessions was attorney general until november of 2018 and cohen pled guilty in august of 2018. so then the stink arises when doj under joe biden decides to let it go. that's the problem >> you can't leave us like that, claire you have to come back tomorrow and elaborate. i mean, i think those are the questions for sure that the congresswoman alluded to and she put a much sharper and accurate point on thank you for that harry, michael, claire, basil, thank you for being part of our conk for the last hour we have another hour to go coming up for us we're going to tell you about brand new blockbuster reporting on the evidence that has been aamassed

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i think the document case is the most serious case. i don't think they went after those documents to get trump i think they actually wanted the documents back and what's at issue in that case is not the taking of the documents, it's what he did after the government sought them and subpoenaed them and whether there was any obstruction. and i think that's the most serious one out there. >> in his job as attorney general bill barr wrote a 19-page memo basically arguing that obstruction isn't a thing but here he is, sounding like someone who has had a change of heart. hi again, everyone it's 5:00 in new york. on the eve of the

twice-impeached disgraced and now indicted ex-president appearing in court tomorrow in manhattan for his arraignment. the spotlight is shining thanks to some great new reporting in the "washington post" on another area of treem potential criminal exposure for donald trump, and that's the investigation into his mishandling of classified documents at his mar-a-lago property and the steps he took to obstruct the investigation into that act. you just heard it from his hand-picked former a.g., bill barr the documents probe is the one that he thinks is the most serious. the one that poses the biggest legal threat to donald trump what barr is getting at is it's not just about trump taking the documents to his residence the issue is that after first the archives and then the fbi tried to get all the documents back, those little state secrets, they issued a subpoena and there were still things trump wouldn't return. regarding that focus, the obstruction that he engaged in,

the special counsel jack smith has amassed a seemingly huge and fresh body of evidence according to some incredible new reporting in the "washington post. from that story, "in the classified documents case federal investigators have gathered new and significant evidence that after the subpoena was delivered trump looked through the contents of some of the boxes of documents in his home, apparently out of a desire to keep secertain things in his possession, the people familiar with the investigation said. investigators now suspect based on witness statements, security camera footage and other documentary evidence that boxes including classified material were moved from a mar-a-lago storage area after the subpoena was served and that trump personally examined at least some of those boxes, according to these people. while trump's team returned some documents with classified markings in response to the subpoena, a later fbi search found more than 100 additional

classified items that had not been turned over the "washington post" details how this behavior was happening even earlier "investigators have also amassed evidence indicating that trump told others to mislead government officials in early 2022 before the subpoena, when the national archives and records administration was working with the justice department to try to recover a large range of papers, many of them not classified, from trump's time as president, according to people familiar with the investigation well, such alleged conduct may not constitute a crime, it could serve as evidence of the former president's intent intent is key to proving obstruction. so as the "post" reports, "in the trump case prosecutors and federal agents are trying to gather any evidence pointing to the motivation for trump's actions. brand new evidence looking at trump's potential obstruction of justice in the mar-a-lago

documents investigation is where we begin the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. "washington post" national investigative reporter and msnbc contributor carol leonnig is here also joining us former acting solicitor general, now law professor at georgetown university, msnbc legal analyst neal katyal is here. and former fbi counterintelligence agent pete strzok is back carol, it's an unbelievable story. i read it on my phone and then i had to see it in letters as i read it on the dpurt and i get the "washington post" delivered to my house and i read it in the paper. take me through the reporting. it's really the first and most comprehensive look at the evidence in the obstruction prong of the mar-a-lago documents case it's the first time that jack smith, mar-a-lago's case has this parallel, this historical parallel to the mueller probe, which existed along the obstruction probe and the coordination with russia prong >> you know, nicolle, what i

really loved about your opening was that you highlight ed what think is the most important paragraph in that blackbockbust story by my colleagues here at the "washington post." the paragraph is the new ju juiciest bit, which is that after receiving a subpoena in a criminal investigation from the federal justice department to turn over all classified documents which were in his possession, donald trump according to witnesses, testimony, text, evidence, according to that information jack smith has learned he decided to claw back some of those documents, have them brought to his residence at mar-a-lago, review them and hold -- presumably, or i should say according to the testimony is believed to have been clawed through them and kept some that he believed he wanted to keep. important about that it means he knew, he personally knew and played a role in

holding back records after receiving a subpoena he then, as we already have reported at the "washington post" and as -- and to be fair, as investigators at the department of justice already learned before jack smith got this case, he had told his attorneys here's where you should be -- here's where you should search for these records. and thinks lawyer attested that i looked through all the records, all the places that i was told to look and i concluded that there are no more classified records at mar-a-lago that turned out to be false. as you know, as i know, as my "washington post" colleagues know, as everybody on this panel, very seasoned watchers of this case now, there were 100 more classified records and then some at mar-a-lago after donald trump and his attorneys asserted that they had returned everything. that is a huge problem for donald trump now jack smith has another big

problem for donald trump, which is evidence suggesting that he personally went through these records and tried to hold some of them back himself >> you know, one of the pieces now, katyal, that was always sort of flashing yellow -- and again, i'm not a lawyer and i'm not a cop, but i, you know, talk to you guys every day and i'm rewatching "the wire." is that there was tapes, right there's the security footage it's in the affidavit that doj took the extraordinary step of releasing after the court-approved mar-a-lago search and there were witnesses like walt nauta and other personal aides who would have been the kinds of people, not mr. corcoran or i think it's christina bobb that carol's reporting suggests ait tested to yeah, we looked everywhere, we didn't have anything, although carefully parse td and said it's been represented to me there isn't anything let me read this about the work of people who might have been involved in moving things and were definitely more personal aides to trump the "washington post" reported in october that trump's valet,

walt nauta, had told investigators that he moved boxes at mar-a-lago at the former president's instruction after the subpoena was issued. smith's team has video surveillance footage corroborating that account the "post" reported and considers the evidence significant. in addition people familiar with the investigation said authorities have another category of evidence that they consider particularly helpful as they reconstruct events from last spring. e-mails and texts of molly michael, an assistant to the former president who followed him from the white house to florida before she eventually left that job last year. michaels' written communications have provided investigators with a detailed understanding of the day-to-day activity at mar-a-lago at critical moments, these people said. when you take the footage and you take the testimony of people like walt nauta and molly michael, you have a granular understanding of what any principal has done >> exactly, nicolle. so first a big picture point and then to your question.

the big picture point is that the news reports that carol's referring to and that you started this hour with, they're a great reminder that the other investigations into donald trump haven't stopped just because we've all been focusing on the manhattan district attorney one over the last couple weeks donald trump's legal concerns extend far beyond new york and i've always felt that this set of mar-a-lago charges is one that he will ultimately face, that this is really, really serious. and i agree -- i'm kind of almost rethinking myself, but i do agree with bill barr here on this point this is not just about the stolen security documents. it's about the obstruction after the fact and carol rightly points out that key paragraph in the "washington post's" story about trump's actions after receiving the subpoena now, you asked about the walt nauta stories and everything else and in conjunction with the

new reporting it's really painting a certain picture that really destroys it looks like trump's defense. his defense is, to use the defense in "the wire," or the mafia uses, i'm the henchman, my hands are clean, other people did this stuff without my knowledge. and that's where both the reporting from october and the reporting yesterday comes in to say uh-uh, trump, it looks like you were the obstructor in chief, your hands were dirty throughout, and you don't have the ability to say i didn't know about this, i lacked the criminal intent and the like it looks like you were the person doing all this. that puts him squarely in the crosshairs of a criminal offense and indictment and it makes it very different than former vice president pence or president biden neither of them is accused in any way, shape or form to my knowledge of acting in this ring leader obstruction way that trump is >> neal, the obstruction evidence has been thrust into public view in part from the affidavit itself this is what doj filed in

august august 30th. "through further investigation the fbi uncovered multiple sources of evidence indicating that the response to the may 11th grand jury subpoena was incomplete and that classified documents remained at the premises notwithstanding the sworn certification made to the government on june 3rd in particular, the government developed evidence that a search limited to the storage room would not have uncovered all the classified documents at the premises the government also developed evidence that government records were likely concealed and removed from the storage room and that efforts were likely taken to obstruct the government's investigation." why hasn't the obstruction case been charged yet >> so if i'm donald trump's lawyer, nicolle, and heaven knows what i did in a past life to wind myself up there. but if i were, i would take what you said and say look, that's fine, that might show an obstruction charge against someone, but where's the evidence linking that to donald trump? nothing in what you just said

deals with trump specifically. he could say that was my subordinates acting of their own volition that's where the reporting from yesterday comes in that's so important. it ties trump directly to the scheme if it holds up and of course we don't know -- and trump is entitled to the presumption of innocence and all that but if that's what jack smith is looking at and looks like what he got, that's going to be very devastating. and one other point about this this operates in law enforcement like a prisoner's dilemma. it might be athat while this walt nauta person or any particular agents guarding him or the lawyers, any of them might want to be loyal to trump on their own and he might induce them with any number of things to be loyal, but law enfo enforcement's going to go to them and say look, we've got other people we're talking to and whoever tells the truth first is going to be rewarded and those who lie, false statements, charges under section 1001, and so you're facing jail time and so that's a very powerful engine to get at

the truth. and so you know, even if trump has been able to succeed on the basis of loyalty in the past, i don't think that's going to necessarily work here. >> yeah, and i guess, you know, pete, this is probably a cringy part for people like you the fbi counterintelligence agent harry meade put it this simply, but it seems that news accounts have presented that the fbi had some concerns or suspicions that at least -- i remember walt nauta being the subject of some reporting that he hadn't been completely forthcoming or honest. we know that judges have found that lawyers have had to come in and testify about this episode because they may know about illegality or crimes committed by trump how encircled do you think trump is at this point as the person in charge of the conspiracy to obstruct the documents probe >> well, nicolle, i think quite encircled.

in answer to your previous question, i think part of the reason he hasn't been charged yet, remember one of trump's key lawyers, evan corcoran, was engaged in this long fight about whether or not he'd be compelled to testify before the grand jury and recently did he go ahead and do that. as part of -- i agree with carol that she identified the absolute key element of that story that's very new, but there are also some other little nauuggets tha point to trump in there. some of this information that he was shopping around for answers from attorneys and when some attorneys told him you may not keep this, you must return it, that he had sought other different advice from different attorneys trying to tell him that he could so you don't get to that information until you overcome these hurdles to testimony the other thing i point to, although it's not an element of the crime, the one thing, the other second thing that really stood out at me from this article is it points to motive it points to why trump did this in the beginning there was some speculation a while back that someone in the fbi, some unnamed sources allegedly who thought he just

wants mementos but this article very clearly points out that special counsel smith's folks are asking whether or not he shows this information to donors. so if you're trying to figure out the why, what's your theory of the case, why on earth did he want to do it, if he's using this to convert it for fund-raising and showing it to people who absolutely have no business seeing it and he's hiding it at the same time, that really starts to flesh out the story about, one, why this occurred and, two, how integral trump was to this entire enterprise >> yeah, let me read that part of the story back to you, carol "as investigators pieced together what happened in may and june of last year, they've been asking witnesses if trump showed classified documents including maps to political donors people familiar with those conversations said such alleged conduct could demonstrate trump's habits when it came to classified documents and what may have motivated him to want to keep the papers the post has previously reported that trump told aides he did not

want to return documents and other items from his presidency, which by law are supposed to remain in government dust di, because he believed they belonged to him. an absolutely harrowing prospect when you think back to all the reporting you and your colleagues have done about what was found there, the incredibly sensitive nuclear information, other countries' very closely held state secrets i mean, what do you -- and of course we can all picture it right? someone for whom nothing was sacred not an approaching hurricane, who trump edited for a live shot but to pete's point about this connecting a motive with something that is plausible to any of us who covered him and the fact that jack smith has it, j just connect those dots for us >> i think pete couldn't be more right about the importance of securing this information and how little donald trump cared

about our nation's security based on his strange belief that he is due to keep government records, that he is allowed to have this information because, quote unquote, it's mine that's just not true and also i would add one other detail there, which is remember, donald trump, as we reported in the "washington post" some months ago, donald trump wanted to tweet a picture of an iranian missile. he wanted to sort of brag about his access to this information it was as if, you know, he got some sort of prestige and reputational value, some bragging rights really, to be able to have this. you may remember, nicolle, we wrote about an instance at mar-a-lago out on his beautiful veranda where he was entertaining a head of state and talking about all sorts, all manner of incredibly sensitive national security matters,

essentially at a cocktail party. you know, this is a veranda that's public, full of his guests, some of whom could be eavesdropping, and he is having this conversation in open air in palm beach this lack of respect is an issue. but when we get to the issue of crime, what's the crime, the other day donald trump in an interview with sean hannity on fox news said these things are his property and he has every right to go through these boxes to keep this information and he referenced the fact that the government paid nixon $18 million for some of these records. it sort of, you know, defies reason how he's thinking about, again, government and presidential records things that are governed by federal law and that he was told in a subpoena in the spring of 2022 he had to return. i want to reference one more important piece of information that can't be underscored

enough and that is when viewers wonder about how big a deal some of these records were, seasoned national security investigators who were tasked with reviewing these records after the raid at mar-a-lago, after fbi agents reluctantly were instructed they had to go down there, search for any more classified records, after that moment these investigators are going through the records and realize they lack the clearance to look at them that's how serious some of this material was it was under special access programs that only a cabinet-level official can authorize individuals one by one to review. >> so neal, it brings us back to where we started and your quirk, saying you agree with bill barr. bill barr knows what classification is. he was the country's attorney general. he saw the most secret

classified documents that our country creates. and yet he thinks the obstruction crimes are more glaring. he thinks an obstruction which before he became a.g. one of his auditions was a 19-point memo he wrote basically saying mueller's obstruction case was b.s. we know that's one of his favorite words and you've got this son obstruction skeptic going on fox news of all places saying on obstruction trump's goose is cooked how baft d must it be >> there's two pieces to the mar-a-lago charge. one is the stealing of all these documents that carol's been referring to and i think carol's absolutely right. my first job at the solicitor general's office at the justice department was national security adviser. and the idea that anyone could take any one of these documents laet loan over 100 is unfat unfathomable, unthinkable and a clear and present threat to our national security because these documents can be reverse-engineered and you can

figure out what spies did to produce them literally lives could be lost. so that's the first half and then the second half is the obstruction charge which bill barr has been focusing on to his credit and that is because it is such a slam dunk. nicolle, it's been reported that the secret service has just been asked to testify in this mar-a-lago investigation by jack smith. and that to me is a very, very interesting development because the secret service generally resists testimony. carol knows this better than anyone and i was at the presentation back in 1999 when they came in to present why they shouldn't have to testify in the bill clinton-monica lewinsky investigation. but here it does seem like they were witness to a bunch of stuff and a former president, not a current president. and that again is going to ratchet up the pressure on donald trump, and i hope he has

a decent lawyer who can tell him exactly what's going on so that he doesn't live in his fantasy land of being a 3-year-old and saying everything is mine because i was president. >> pete strzok, quick last question do you think bill barr has testified in the documents investigation? he is an incredibly -- it is noteworthy how enthusiastic he is about an obstruction prosecution for trump. >> short answer, no. i mean, he has not mentioned it. i haven't seen reporting anywhere that he has he clearly was attorney general during the last days i mean, he left a couple of weeks before the inauguration. but i think in terms of, you know, the things that were being counseled to the president in terminals of what your obligations are with regard to the presidential records act and turning over documents, what's your obligation in terms of the handling of classified information or returning information like that, that seems like something much more in line with the role of a chief of staff or personal assistant,

the walt nauta and molly michaels and mark meadows of the world, not necessarily bill barr wouldn't put it past him but again i think we would have heard about it >> i think if you're jack smith and you close your eyes and throw a dart at everyone that's ever walked into trump's west wing you could find a high-level official that could testify that donald trump mishandled classified documents just a hunch sxim other sure he doesn't need a dart board carol leonnig, thank you for joining us to talk about your colleagues' incredible story and how much more we understand about that investigation neal katyal, thank you for help us make sense of it. pete strzok sticks around. when we come back, officials are determined to avoid anything resembling a repeat of any aspect of january 6th when donald trump is arraigned tomorrow we'll talk about the preparations by law enforcement for what could possibly potentially become a volatile situation here in new york city. and and later in the program a delaware judge deals a big blow, a big one to fox news in the $1.6 billion defamation case

brought by dominion voting machines that case is now heading to trial in just two weeks. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. digital innovn and enterprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow. so it's decided, we'll park even deeper into parking spaces so people think they're open. surprise. [ laughs ] [ horn honks, muffled talking ] -can't hear you, jerry. -sorry. uh, yeah, can we get a system where when someone's bike is in the shop, then we could borrow someone else's? -no! -no! or you can get a quote with america's number-one motorcycle insurer and maybe save some money while you're at it. all in favor of that. [ horn honking ] there's a lot of buttons and knobs in here.

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[ ominous music playing ] [ engines revving ] benefits.here we go!ompliance. ♪ ♪ while there may be some rabble rousers thinking about coming to our city tomorrow, our message is clear and simple. control yourselves new york city is our home, not a playground for your misplaced anger. >> that was new york city mayor eric adams with a stern warning for anyone hoping to or looking to or planning to protest in and

around the arraignment of the disgraced ex-president for days now law enforcement has been on high alert ahead of this unprecedented event. 35,000 police officers have been mobilized. federal, state, and local security agencies are all working in coordination. "the new york times" reports this about the law enforcement response "even as trump's coming arraignment reflects a different set of circumstances, the response is informed by lessons learned from the capitol riot and from the challenges posed by the nationwide protests against police violence in 2020. they include the need to deploy forces quickly when threats pop up on social media and the importance of sharing intelligence among agencies in real time, officials said. however, there are few if any signs that the overt coordination of mass protests that characterized the weeks and months before january 6th have taken place. joining our conversation, "new york times" reporter glenn thrush, whose byline is on that

bit of reporting we just read from pete strzok is still around. take me through your reporting it is on one level reassuring that on one level nothing is planned or feared. and on another it's this depressing touchstone now, this new frame because of january 6th we're always prepared for a spontaneous violent event. z >> can i just say -- can i just exhibit admiration for adams's formulation of what is it, playground for misplaced anger >> he was good today >> i thought that reflects my entire childhood but that's another story. >> for another day >> what we're dealing with, nicolle, i think is a situation which has a great many stark similarities to what occurred prior to january 6th and a great many differences and i think the first is really

venue. new york city is a vastly different place than washington is and the role that the nypd plays in new york, with 35,000 officers, you know, a force that is substantially larger than some small countries' armies, is just all the difference in the world. as one former nypd official said to me, they can deploy -- they could push a button and get 1,000 officers they could push another button, get another 1,000 officers and keep on doing that for a long period of time and when you throw in a lot of the other bureaucracies, law enforcement agencies in new york city, that the state offers state police, the court officers, you just have a lot more capacity to deploy than you did in new york, and it's under a relatively unified command so that's one of the big differences. the other major factor is what

has occurred since january 6th there is an acute consciousness of the lack of coordination. the fbi did not alert the capitol police to certain threats. there was a great deal of disorganization within the capitol police i think they've studied the negative examples of that experience and attempted, attempted because we don't know what's going to happen, to ameliorate that. but the one thing i would say is it just takes one or two malevolent actors to overturn the entire apple cart. so there's -- in one sense there's a sense of confidence that they're not seeing the same sort of signals of mass threat on the other side there is that sense of apprehension about smaller groups being able to pull off something >> yeah, and this is where i was heading with this, it seems like they can be relatively confident that, i don't know, the qanon shaman isn't going to poop inside the courthouse. these are the kinds of events it

doesn't sound like they're hearing chatter are likely to happen inside the courthouse but the political violence that has ensued, the man who sought to take hostage and who brutally attacked paul pelosi, the shooter in new mexico and the shooter at the fbi field office days or weeks after the court-approved search of trump's mar-a-lago property, i mean, how do you -- those are more -- and nypd has experience with this too post-9/11. but these needle in the haystack threats, how do they protect for a longer sustained period of time against those >> look, that's a problem in a city -- that's the flip side of the city with the scale of new york i covered the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks i was there in the city. and there was that sense that anything could happen at any given time and you're absolutely right to discuss the case in cincinnati it really looms large. particularly with the fbi. but also within the nypd

there's a sense the atmosphere is a great deal more like the situation that was in the immediate aftermath of the search of mar-a-lago than january 6th. in the january 6th what people sort of forget about january 6th is it wasn't covert at all you had two substantial demonstrations prior to the big one and everyone sort of knew something was going to happen, they just didn't know that particular outburst of violence was going to happen. >> and pete, they knew because trump had invited them on his twitter feed weeks and weeks in advance, like a save the date. can you address my second question, though how does the country's law enforcement, new york city and beyond, protect against the animosity, the hatred and the rage -- let me just put one more piece of information out there for our viewers. this is from the department of homeland security's threat assessment issued in november. "perceptions of government overreach continue to drive individuals to attempt to commit

violence targeting government officials and law enforcement officers some domestic violent extremists have expressed grievances based on perceptions that the government is overstepping its constitutional authorities or failing to perform its duties. i haven't read all of trump's fund-raising appeals but i'm sure they are very much in line with that existing grievance >> nicolle, i think that's absolutely right and look, i agree with glenn that new york city is excellent in terms of being able to when there's a specific event to provide a robust, deep sort of protective shield around any potential illegal activity, let alone violent activity i think when the problem comes in is when you look at the post-mar-a-lago search as was pointed out, there was an fbi field office in the midwest that was attacked nobody attacked the fbi field office in miami or the fbi field office in tampa, and much like new york city can do an extraordinary job locking down and securing the courthouse and the district aattorney's office. that isn't going to stop

somebody in omaha, nebraska or up in new hampshire or el paso, texas who decides there's a horrible just miscarriage of justice by the federal government, particularly when you have people like marjorie taylor greene and jim jordan saying we should defund the fbi. so how do you predict somebody who probably may not have all their sanity to begin with, suddenly deciding that they've had enough with no link whatsoever to trump, to new york city, to mar-a-lago, suddenly deciding that they need to lash out at the government? that's a really difficult thing to do. and unfortunately i think we are going to see incidents of vooinls because i see nothing from the republican party leadership doing anything to tamp down the sort of agg aggrievement with local, state and national law enforcement >> yeah. i mean, you both touched on bigger and deeper issues glenn, with your reporting and pete, with your sort of widening the net to what we have to protect against. i'd love to have you both back if we get through -- when we get

through tomorrow and have that conversation glenn thrush and pete strzok, thank you very much for being here today after the break for us, a stunning ruling by a judge that it is, quote, crystal clear that fox news aired false claims about dominion's voting machines and the 2020 election. we'll tell you why that ruling mat matters, next. me - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team. you're doing business in an app driven, multi-cloud world. that's why you choose vmware. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today.

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mark your calendar, if that's your thing. it's my thing. april 17th, two weeks from today, that is when the monster groundbreaking $1.6 billion defamation suit against fox news is expected to go to trial following a decision on friday by the judge in that case. in what the "new york times" describes as a, quote, major setback for fox the judge ruled that dominion's case was, quote, strong enough to conclude that knock hosts and guests had repeatedly made false claims about dominion machines and their supposed role in a fictitious plot to steal the election from president donald trump. or as the judge put it, quote, the evidence developed in the civil proceeding demonstrates that it is, all caps, crystal clear that none of the statements relating to dominion about the 2020 election are true we should point out that the judge in his ruling, as we said, wrote the word "crystal" in bold in all caps.

the judge then went on to seemingly call fox's bluff over first amendment protections in this case. as "the new york times" reports, the judge, "rejected much of the heart of fox's defense, that the first amendment protected the statements made on its air alleging that the election had somehow been stolen. quote, fox has argued that it was merely reporting on allegations of vote fraud as inherently newsworthy and that any statements its hosts made about supposed fraud from covered under the constitution as opinion it's an argument that this judge was not buying this is from the judge's ruling. quote, fox news network hosts repeatedly framed the issue as one of truth seeking and purported to ground interview questions in judicial proceedings and evidence and did not read the statements as mere opinion. furthermore, it appears oxymoronic to call the statements, quote, opinions while also asserting that the statements are newsworthy

allegations and/or substantially accurate reports of official proceedings. wow. joining our coverage, law professor at george washington university law school and constitutional law expert catherine hass is back senior opinion writer for the "boston globe. as well as an msnbc political analyst. there's so much of this i want to read to both of you and share with our viewers but first your reaction to the tone and substance of this latest ruling that has very much not gone in fox's way, catherine. >> thank you for inviting me back, nicolle. it was a devastating ruling. it was very detailed it went over virtually all of fox's claims and arguments and rejected them. first let me explain what a summary judgment motion means. it's a situation where one of the parties, and here there were cross-motions, but the parties both said there are no material facts that need to go to trial and the judge basically winnowed

it down to three remaining claims that go to a jury, which we can get to later. it was devastating because as you noted the judge said it was, in all caps and bold, this was none of the statements relating to dominion were true. he ruled that every statement which he analyzed in detail in an appendix was either a statement of fact or a mixed statement of fact and opinion which had -- neither of which had any first amendment protection he rejected fox's legal arguments that it had some sort of a privilege and also that the question should be whether it was reporting as true that someone like trump or a member of his team had made an allegation of a stolen election.

and the judge said no, this is not the question before the court. the question is whether the content of the allegations was true and you reported them so he also said, and this is a very important question in defamation cases, that this was per se defamation. in other words, dominion doesn't have to show that it was damaged because the nature of the falsehoods is so inherently damaging and that is it goes to the heart of dominion's business and in one set of allegations actually accused dominion of committing a crime. so these are very major questions now off the table, all decided against fox. and i said fox had filed a competing summary judgment motion that motion failed in its entirety >> so just explain the point you

started to make, that what -- by siding with dominion on some of these questions the judge basically narrowed what will be determined in a trial to questions of whether fox corporation is liable. i understand that involves the murdochs' role in all of this. we know from the discovery process that rupert murdoch described -- said this trump insisting on the election being stolen and convincing 25% of americans was a huge disservice to the country. pretty much a crime. that will be essential to answering one of the questions before the jury. the second is actual malice. and the third is damages just talk about how much of an advantage that is for dominion to have everything else but those three things settled >> it's a huge advantage because when a case is complicated and you have a jury of average citizens the more questions they have before them the more befuddled they might get and the more opportunity there would be

for fox's lawyers to try to muddy the waters or pick away at smaller points so the jury will be aware that the judge has already made these findings that everything was fa false, that fox didn't even dispute that in the filings, that the damage is per se, which means that dominion is entitled to at least some compensation to show that they were wronged without having to necessarily prove the actual damages so the question about the fox corporation i think is less important. it's a question about whether they, quote unquote, actually published or whether it was just the network. and that is more technical but the ultimate ownership, which interlocks, they're going

to be responsible. so i'm less interested in that, at least as a amatter of defamation law and making first amendment principles about defamation clear so the two really interesting questions are whether there was actual malice, which means with knowledge that the allegations were -- the statements were false and if not knowledge reckless disregard and the court said that involves a state of mind and therefore it is not the kind of decision that the court should make, it is really a jury decision and i think that and the amount of damages, whether actual, which fox disputes, or punitive, which could be even much more significant, those are going to be the two key questions and on actual malice the record

is so full of admissions that the fox executives and the people who were on air knew or had reason to know at a minimum that what they were saying, the guests they were putting on were spewing falsehoods, that biden had won the election, that there was no significant fraud, and they continued to make these false charges on the air not only after they had more than enough reason to know they were false or likely false but also after dominion told them more than 3,000 times you are spreading falsehoods and

everything we've seen to date has been in dominion's favor and really unbelievable legal setback including reputational setbacks for fox news. i'm sorry, let me bring kim in i'm sorry, katherine >> i think that's right, nicole. i think as a former civil litigator, getting summary judgement motions in your pretrial is really hard. that is the judge saying i'm taking this out of the jury's hands. based on what we've seen so far, there is no question for a jury to decide.

just very willing want to put this before a jury to do that fact finding so the fact that this judge said, you know what? a reasonable jury cannot come to any other conclusion other than defamation happen per se and dominion was damaged in some way by it. it is pretty xrart and so now as katherine noted correctly, the jury just has to decide how much dominion was damaged and whether there was an actual malice standard, whether they acting knowingly or with reckless disregard they're important in terms of the liability here and those are the same factors that play when it odometers punitive damages. dominion is already claiming that they suffered in excess of a billion dollars of actual damages. now they have to prove very specifically how they were damaged in order to get that compensatory award but what i'm looking out here is this seems to be setting fox news up for a pretty hefty

punitive damage award which is also something that is unusual but if it's based on the same standards, which it is, whether they knew what they were doing was false and whether they acted with reckless disregard, i think there is eevidence of both, i t a jury can come to conclusion that they acted to airously that they need to be punished and not just with dominion for lack of the reputation -- or reputational damage, but also be made to punish with a very large award. i think that's one reason that the fox network is fighting so hard and not just leaving this to fox news. they realize how big this award could be >> it is amazing you watch the coverage they cannot quit it's amazing katherine ross, kim, thank you so much for being part of our conversation we'll stay on that story a quick break for us we'll be right back.

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shooter opened fire at the covenant school. the shooter's motivation is still unknown. today's walkout was ended at the state capitol and organized by the student led anti-violence group march for our lives. we're going to keep an eye on them watch the space around here. another break for us we'll be right back.

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