their local newspaper. halfway down the block behind me, the former president will enter that building at his arraignment. we will be waiting here as that happens. of course, the release of the indictment as well, which we will be reading through in real time it's an unbelievable day in this nation's history. >> the eyes of the world are on this, and everyone having a different perspective of what we are living through that wraps up the hour for us. up next, don't miss chris jansing and andrea mitchell. thank you for the privilege of your time. our special team coverage continues right now. good day i'm andrea mitchell joined by

chris jansing and katie tur. the first time a former u.s. president has been indicted on criminal charges donald trump, the frontrunner for the republican nomination, is in manhattan. we are waiting to learn the all important details of the sealed indictment, what the charges are, believed stemming from hush money paid to stormy daniels to buy her silence before the 2016 election about her claim of a relationship with donald trump hush money payments are not illegal. the issue is, how were they recorded >> we will watch history unfold. we expect to see mr. trump exit trump tower with his secret service detail and travel to lower manhattan where he will be

met by a member of the district attorney's office and be placed under arrest trump will not be handcuffed no dna will be taken mr. trump will be fingerprinted. we are awaiting word on whether a mugshot will be taken. he will be moved to the courtroom for his 2:15 arraignment before judge juan merchan. he ruled there will be no video cameras but photographs will be allowed but only until the proceedings begin. no phones or computers can be used in that room. no real time information is expected to come out >> mr. trump spent his time in new york city lashing out at alvin bragg and judge merchan on social media, call on the district attorney to resign and indict himself, making unsubstantiated claims about illegal leaks, attacking mr. bragg's wife and claiming the judge is highly partisan

later this evening, donald trump will deliver his own remarks at march mar-a-lago we will watch this as it unfolds. it's a historic day. what it also is is a question about what's going to happen in the coming months, year and change before the next presidential election and what this is going to mean. donald trump and his team are saying this is good for them so far, it has been good in terms of fund-raising. will it be good for them when it is the general election? if donald trump is the nominee will he gain votes from this look back at the evidence over the last six years 2018, 2020, 2022, each election proved trump-style politics and trump himself have not been

popular. does an indictment gain him more voters that's a big question mark the answer to that is no >> it's hard to overdramatize what this means to donald trump. what it means personally will almost certainly impact what we hear from him publically this is a man who came to manhattan from one of the outer boro boroughs he wanted to be the king of manhattan. build tall buildings, flashy buildings, be respected within a community that he felt had not respected him. he has had these conversations with a lot of people about how he came to manhattan, how he built his career, how he built his business, how he believes he came to triumph here in the place where if you can make it, you can make it anywhere this is a time for him to come back he was in trump tower. but he is going into a building he has not been in since 2015 when he went to do jury duty

i think you wrote a story about it back then. >> i was there. >> he announced he was running for president. now he is going back as a defendant. it's something that the reality is going to hit very hard when he walks into that room and he is told he is under arrest >> overriding had is the 2024 campaign it's noteworthy that he flew from mar-a-lago to manhattan with his campaign staff. they have been tweeting and responding from the plane and since he has been down and talking about how much money they have raised this victimization is part of his whole political m.o. and the attacks as you pointed out against the judge, the d.a., saying he was going to have the d.a. indict himself or should indict himself, all of that. reportedly, some disappointment

he hasn't seen larger protests, having called for protests let's get to our reporters nbc's garrett haake in lower manhattan, dasha burns outside trump tower, laura jarrett, andrew weissmann and former u.s. attorney chuck rosenberg garrett haake, you are in lower manhattan. you are reporting and preparing to see what's going to unfold. you will be in the courtroom what are you expecting when donald trump arrives >> reporter: at some point, laura jarrett or i will have to change our names if we keep doing panels together. this has been a wild scene downtown all day today that's only going to increase as the hours go on. we have seen george santos and marjorie taylor greene try to rally trump supporters behind

our live shot. barely able to finish their remarks before getting b bum-rushed out you used to be able to see the courthouse over my shoulder. now the sidewalk is three or four people deep they want to see history here once mr. trump arrives in the building in the last 20 minutes or so, i had an opportunity to have a brief conversation with marjorie taylor greene, as i said, after she was rushed out of her in her suv, about the reception she received here, which can speak to some of donald trump's discussion on social media about a change of venue, which i know you will talk about later, and the conversation you were just having, katie, about this -- the potential of this indictment or others present him with so much political baggage it becomes untenable to move forward.

a little bit of our conversation >> the reason why i came out is to protest it's our first amendment right to peacefully protest, not to cause problems or break any laws but to use our voices. we have to stand up against this for six years, everyone warned, the democrats warned that president trump would destroy democracy. democracy is being destroyed today. they are not prosecuting president trump. they are purse kusing persecuti. alvin bragg is making the best case possible to vote for donald trump. >> reporter: if people are focused on inflation and the border, why is the fact that he is going after donald trump a better case than those issues that they care about so personally >> it exposes the democrat party.

>> reporter: the political issues will be dealt with in their own due time i have to head to the courtroom. one additional piece of reporting, when we get to the courtroom, it's likely that donald trump's attorneys will have not yet seen the indictment, will not be familiar with the charges against him if that is the case, according to sources, it's likely that the trump defense attorneys might ask for a short recess to have an opportunity to review the charges against him. something to keep in mind as everyone is in a news black hole while those proceedings are going on >> garrett, thank you so much. we will be interested to hear what you have to say when you come out of the courtroom. we will let you go laura, we just heard the new reporting. i will add that a senior a back room off the couroom where if they wanted to review the indictment and the judge decided to allow them to, that's where they could go. would that be something he would

likely allow them to do? especially if it's voluminous? >> i can't see a reason why he would object to that they haven't seen the document yet. it's under seal. they are not allowed to give it over >> what would they need to look at so they could go back in to court? we think of it an indictment as just charges being read and he says guilty or not guilty and it's over. what would they be looking for that would help inform the rest of what happens in the courtroom? >> they will want to see the exact counts, what the statutes are. they will want to see whether it's -- what's known as a speaking indictment. andrea knows this well in federal cases, you see this where the lawyers want to tell a story, provide a narrative, a background of what happened. they don't have to often you don't see that in state cases. sometimes you do

it will be interesting to see whether they do that in this case and provide a little bit more color if they do, you can imagine trump's attorneys want to understand exactly what prosecutors are alleging as the entire nation will soon see it >> chuck, i want to ask you about what charges we're looking for. we heard about it's expected to be more than 30 counts i will ask andrew weissmann instead. whether this becomes a felony. we expect it will be a felony. it will depend what the underlying charges will be, what will elevate this to a felony. walk us through what specifically you will be looking for in the explanation for how alvin bragg makes what is usually a misdemeanor a felony >> sure. everyone is thinking that the charges are going to be limited to this so-called hush money scheme not go into the larger financial case that by all accounts may

still be under investigation and still could be brought if it is related to the hush money scheme only, the key crime is filing or creating a false business record. katie, as you said, that's something that that simple charge is a misdemeanor under new york law however, if it is done to further or to cover up any other crime, presumably any other state crime, although there's an open issue whether it could be a federal crime, but if you are doing this to advance or cover up another crime, it can be a felony what is unknown and what i will look for and many people will be looking for is if that felony is charged, and people there will be that kind of charge, what is the other crime that is either furthered or covered up? is it tax charges? is it campaign fraud what is the other crime that would elevate this to a felony

finally, i will be looking to see whether one of the crimes is a conspiracy charge. that allows the d.a. to bring in other types of acts. for instance, we focused on stormy daniels if there's a conspiracy charge, it could extend to what happened with karen mcdougal, which was by all accounts, appears to be part of this catch and kill strategy those are the things that i will be looking for >> if the crime committed to cover up another crime -- if the second crime is a federal charge, a federal financial charge, for instance, and this is a novel connection that this d.a. is making, does that open up alvin bragg to an appeal? how risky is it? >> well, we have to see. it could be that that is one of the theories but not the only theory in other words, there could be state charges as well that are used

one theory is this federal charge that is an open issue. so that will be something that any defendant -- here, it's donald trump -- will be able to make a legal argument to the trial judge saying that the particular statute did not contemplate federal charges. it has to be in furtherance to cover up a stage charge. the judge will rule on that whether it's a good argument by the defense or bad ultimately, there could be an appeal of that issue that happens all the time where somebody has a legal issue and if it's not decided and the courts do their job of hearing from both sides and then making an argument, i would be somewhat surprised if that is the only theory that is used by the d.a., because i would agree that that seems like it would be unduly risky to put all of your eggs in

that basket as opposed to having -- that being one of many theories >> chuck rosenberg, let's talk about the demand from donald trump and his attorneys for a change of venue to move this whole trial out of manhattan claiming they can't get a fair jury because it's a democratic city and democratic state. you have had a lot of experience with this in the past, including the worst cases we have prosecuted, 9/11 conspirators in virginia, right near the pentagon, which was one of the attack sites >> our federal courthouse in alexandria is three miles from the pentagon where many innocent people lost their lives that horrible day we found a fair jury in the eastern district of virginia that could adjudicate that case. you are not looking for people who never heard about 9/11 in this case, you are not looking for people who never heard of donald trump or stormy daniels. you are looking for people who

can be fair. last count, there were a few people who live in manhattan can a judge assemble a fair jury in manhattan to hear this case people who will listen to the evidence and follow the instructions of the court. absolutely andrew made this point earlier defendants often bring motions, either to dismiss a count, as he was discussing, or perhaps for a change of venue. they don't often succeed the question is, can you find a fair jury in manhattan the answer is yes. >> if the judge denies the change of venue request we anticipate, is that potentially an appeals argument? certainly, there will be an appeals argument onthe charges if it is stepped up to a felony, because that's a novel theory that needs to be tested. >> there are motions brought pre-trial, before trial. then they are preserved, if they are denied by the judge, so that if there is a conviction, the

defendant can renew those to an appellant court. will there be an appeal of a judge's denial to move venue the answer is, well, perhaps but only if mr. trump is convicted. if he is not convicted, if he is acquitted, the case is over. there are no appeals there's a long road ahead of us pre-trial motions, trial perhaps, conviction perhaps, appeals perhaps. this is really like the first day when you check into the hotel. >> we don't even know that it's going to get to a trial. you have all of those pre-trial motions. >> that's right. there's a lot of things that can happen. >> i know you have a lot of experience with change of venue, andrew there are two other things i heard about in terms of possible defense questions to the judge one is about dismissal which seems to me happens frequently the other is about recusal we know that they think or

donald trump thinks that he has been biased. is today when that happens what do you expect >> no. that will play out within the course -- he has 45 days to file some of the pre-trial motions. we will see it relatively soon but that will not be for today today is going to be a very ministerial legal process. it could play out within 15 minutes. i don't think you will see a lot of argument today. you may hear a preview, depending how trump's defense team wants to go about it. you will not hear any lengthy argument about anything we are talking about today. that's later you have to have a basis for these motions. they can talk about motions to did dismiss, statute of limitations. you have to have a legal basis for those. that's where the rubber is going to meet the road and how they explain some of these things they haven't seen the charges.

we are a little premature here >> katie >> we are waiting to find out what's going to be in this indictment we expect it to be about the payments, at least in part, to stormy daniels made by michael cohen and michael cohen says donald trump reimbursed him specifically for we have a picture of the checks that we can show you of the reimbursement. donald trump's team said it was for legal fees donald trump knew full well he was paying him back for paying stormy daniels off it's help fell to go back to 2016 to remind people where we were in the campaign when michael cohen says he was making these payments to stormy daniels for $130,000 this was in the days before the election donald trump was dealing with the fallout and the backlash from, one, the "access hollywood" tape where he bragged about grabbing women we know that secondly, remarks he made about the former miss universe,

commenting about her weight. he was dealing with allegations of misogyny. he was trying to beat those back and still maintain what he felt was a lead in the campaign it was a very heady time in that moment any more allegations of donald trump being an adulterer or a porn star saying that donald trump had an appear with me, the porn star, stormy daniels saying that, the campaign felt at the time that this would have been a problem. that's why michael cohen says he was making these payments, in part at least. dasha burns, it was happening at trump tower where you are standing outside of right now. this was the headquarters for the campaign it's where all of these conversations were had in the moment, at least one person was usually inside that tower. i know donald trump asked for and expected protesters and supporters to come out for him today. what has it been like there at

trump tower, donald trump's home for so many years? >> reporter: the scene is quiet. maybe the quiet before the storm. we're expecting that he will depart from trump tower. this is the start of that choreography that we have been talking about all day. he will be leaving here likely within the next hour or so we saw a small group of trump supporters here earlier today, but not much more beyond that. we have seen groups of tourists, some onlookers, a lot of curiosity. there's not a massive police presence, of course. we have seen some officers directing traffic, starting to direct traffic away from the trump tower block of fifth avenue right now, the only real indication we have of what's going on inside that war room inside trump tower right now is from the former president himself. he has been once again posting on truth social. he was posting all day yesterday throughout his trip here to new

york, late into the night. once again, this morning, he has been going after, as expected, the d.a. he has been going after bill barr, attacking him for his appearance on fox news, going after other so-called rhinos, other republicans like paul ryan, karl rove. he has been attacking the judge that is overseeing this arraignment, which, of course, complicates some things for the court and for his lawyers, potentially. speaking of which, three of his attorneys will be joining him for this arraignment one is new to the team, todd blanche. he will be joining he is fresh to the team, just joining as announced last night. according to the website for his law firm he is leaving to join the trump team, he does have experience representing clients who have faced grand jury

proceedings, criminal charges. he spent nine years as a prosecutor in the u.s. attorney's office for the southern district of new york. that 11th hour addition shows you how they are preparing >> dasha burns, thank you. andrew, chuck, you are going to stay with us all of you are watching msnbc's special coverage of the arraignment of the former president of the united states, donald trump, in new york city we are back in just 60 seconds ♪ ♪ [ cat purrs ] [ phone vibrates ] introducing astepro allergy. steroid-free allergy relief

that starts working in 30 minutes, while other allergy sprays take hours. now with astepro fast allergy relief, [ spray, spray ] you can astepro and go. welcome back to our special coverage of donald trump's arraignment in manhattan the former president is expected to leave trump tower for the courthouse in the next hour. he is facing about 30 charges in the hush money case. we will find out more specifics once the indictment is unsealed. former president trump's court appearance is expected at 2:15 eastern. joining us now, former assistant

district attorney rebecca rofrey, joyce vance, yamiche alcindor, jonathan lemire, andrew weissmann is still with u us rebecca, what is typical about the next few hours and what won't? >> i think some of the security measures will be different the d.a.'s office is used to a great deal of media attention. this is different. because it's the secret service, the way in which he comes in may be different and the way in which he proceeds to the courtroom may be different once he gets there, i imagine the proceedings will be similar. these proceedings are routine.

not a lot of drama normally happens during arraignment we will see if those proceed the way they have in other cases >> joyce, what are you watching for when the 30 some charges we think are in that indictment are unsealed how does this go from a misdemeanor for a felony, potentially? >> right that's exactly, i think, what we will all be looking at for these charges of business record falsification to become felonies, that conduct has to have been committed to further or to conceal another crime. the question is, what crimes have the manhattan d.a. prosecutors landed on? there's some expectation that there will be tax crimes involved there's some expectation election crimes could be involved andrew discussed earlier the little wrinkle there that would involve probably some further litigation some risk on appeal.

it seems likely to me that the manhattan d.a.'s office has looked through this very carefully. they have access to information that they developed in the grand jury the public naymay not be ae of we may see surprises, crimes different than what we expected, perhaps an expansive conspiracy charge. >> jonathan, let's talk about the pressure on d.a. bragg because of these attacks from donald trump, from his supporters how much pressure and how is he expected to respond to this, if at all today, in this news conference that he is scheduled for in the 3:00 hour, we think >> there's an extraordinary amount of pressure on him since taking the post. initially, his predecessor did not bring a case against donald trump. it looked like bragg wouldn't either something changed. was there new evidence, new testimony that spurred the

decision to bring these charges forth later today? you are right, there's the public relations matter here i think bragg, his office has telegraphed they don't want to play politics. they did snap back at house republicans, you recall, whether they -- whethe -- when they were trying to get bragg to testify bragg and his team said they won't be doing that. these are separate powers. we expect after the arraignment he will say, no one is above the law. they will proceed forward with due process. you are right, it comes with a backdrop of trump and his allies unleashing scathing attacks, some personal, some seemingly racist, some anti-semitic against bragg and his team there's going to be heavy scrutiny on him but also there needs to be heavy security

we have seen the additional police presence in recent days in the wake of the former president's escalating rhetoric. >> so everyone knows what we are looking at right now on the bottom of your screen to the left is a picture of 56th street in new york city this is the lower end of donald trump's home. >> daymeon: -- donald trump's tower. you walk into the doors, you walk into trump tower bar. that's right across the hall, the lobby, from those gold elevators that everybody knows from so many years ago when he was having that parade with many notable names going up and down the elevators. probably walk across that lobby, through the bar and out under that maroon sign where he will get -- we will get a small glimpse before he heads downtown to court donald trump is campaigning on this he has started doing that. they have been raising money on

it he is going after the prosecutors, the judge, democrats saying that this is all a plan to keep him from getting re-elected it's all election interference he is using it to campaign on. yamiche, you have been talking to voters out there. what are they saying about these allegations? what do they say about this indi indictment what do they say about whether it makes them more or less interested in voting for donald trump? >> the answer comes down to the person, the party affiliation you are talking to when i was watching this afternoon these protest themes between 300 pro-trump supporters and 150 anti-trump supporters, it was a reminder this is a perspective that is deeply, deeply tied to the political perspectives of americans around this country we have seen poll after poll that they are out. in talking to people in recent days, democrats have been telling they are ecstatic.

that's one of the words that one of the voters said, about see ing former president trump being indicted it's been something as you said he has been campaigning on, selling t-shirts like i stand with donald trump. on the other side, you have republicans who say, this is really just evidence of what they see as a large-scale conspiracy theory of big government coming after conservatives. we know former president trump has been leaning into that idea, saying his legal problems are the country's legal problems his supporters are almost going to be the next on this imaginary list of people that will be targeted because of their political or party affiliation it's a very interesting thing to look at in this country to see this historic moment and remember that everything that's happening here, while it's playing out on the legal field and in a courtroom today, it's very much steeped in politics

and the views of americans >> andrew, we haven't talked about what exactly is going to happen to donald trump when he gets in there. there's a question whether or not there's a mugshot. what is typical? what are you expecting how quickly will it go we heard about the chaos outside because there's a lot of people. the streets aren't very big. what's going to happen inside? >> there's the norm and then there's what's going to happen in a case where the defendant has secret service protection. one of the things we talked about and you previewed is the issue of, is he going to be handcuffed is he going to have a mugshot? normally you would have both he has secret service protection there may be more to that story. i wouldn't expect actually that he is going to either be handcuffed or have a mugshot you could argue why that's wrong. that's what i would not expect

>> he has a new lawyer we may see todd blanche today? >> absolutely. the arraignment is going to be quick, i would expect. there may be arguments about bail conditions. at an arraignment, the judge wants to make sure the defendant has had an opportunity to read and understand the charges, that's why there might be a delay. if this is not unsealed until the defendant is in the courtroom, you could imagine taking a pause so his defense lawyers and he can read everything the second is an issue of bail he will be released. the judge may say something about what he can and cannot do. for instance, attacking the wife of the dc.a. or trying to incit violence, including the d.a., the staff, anybody else. you don't want somebody who is a defendant out on bail doing that there is a very good legal team

in place, and a new member as of yesterday. >> andrea? >> picking up on that point, chuck, let's talk about whether it's likely that judge merchan would impose a gag order we have seen in the past this exact thing happen with previous trump allies in the federal court here this is the president -- a man running for president, not just a former president, but a candidate, the leading condition for the republican nomination. there are first amendment issues with any gag order they are profound with a candidate. could this be judge merchan perhaps admonishing all sides not to have attacks, not to use social media >> i would expect an admonishment or two. like a lot of things in the law, this is about drawing lines. on one hand, the judge wants to make sure this conducted with

dignity and decor um and to manage that so both sides get a fair trial on the other hand, mr. trump is a candidate for president. it would be hard to tell somebody who is running for president that they can't talk at all about the criminal indictment that they are facing. seems to be at least a campaign issue for him, if not also a fund-raising mechanism it's about drawing lines i think the judge, who is well regarded for being thoughtful and running a good and dignified courtroom, will find the right balance here if he has to fine tune it, he can do that. he canned aminu ed admonish peo. if they don't adhere, he can bring them back. he can impose a more stringent requirement if they are not listening. >> chuck, rebecca, joyce, yamiche, jonathan, andrew, thanks to all of you coming up, how the new york

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and it stays off. (soft music) one of donald trump's most ardent supporters is in new york marjorie taylor greene was swarmed by counterprotesters and demonstration against the former president's indictment earlier she was rushed back to her suv just minutes after arriving and after she tried to speak joining us now in new york where the protest is funderway is ron allen. also with us is danell harvin. we saw the marjorie taylor greene interview awith garrett

haake. are there more media in attendance or more protesters out there? >> reporter: i think there are more media and passerbyes and bystanders than protesters on both sides it's a beautiful day out here. the crowd has been growing by the hour there's been a lot of yelling and screaming. you can probably hear it in the background over here, you can see there is a back and forth happening that's going on. the police have been adept at keeping the two sides apart, keeping people who -- they have been trying to keep the protesters for and against donald trump back on either side we are getting a lot of yelling and screaming. you can hear profanity i'm sorry about that why don't we send it back to you. >> thank you for that.

i will pick it up there. there is -- there's been a lot of concern new york mayor eric adams warned them to keep the peace he named marjorie taylor greene, who is known for put disinformation out there we know the nypd has 35,000 officers ready to go they are bigger and better trained than some national armies talk about the scene, what you think about handling a situation like this. do you let it go a little bit and make sure that nothing bad is going to happen because of your experience, do you think there are lessons learned that are being applied here >> absolutely. the nypd is the most capable and largest police force in the world. everyone has consumed the reports from january 6 e everyone lahas learned their lesson there's shouts, there's signage.

that's what the first amendment allows for i think in a homeland security space, we widen the aprp scene it's the person at home that's plotting it's not the large crowd like we saw on january 6 it's the lone actor we are looking out for. we see signs of these individuals coalescing online on social media talking about the next civil war >> there are new york city police, largest force and best intelligence force you have the secret service. you have capitol police because you have marjorie taylor greene there. how challenging is it for the secret service to get donald trump in and out of this venue safely given the crowds around

here and the fact that he wants to play to the crowd he wants an audience. >> donald trump is probably proving one of the more difficult people to protect. once again, this is a professional, world class service when you talk about the secret service in terms of their ability to protect dignitaries, assisted by 35,000 strong in terms of nypd. one of the largest standing armies if you compare them to some countries they have the city on lockdown where they need to people able to -- i was down there earlier today. you are able to walk around and conduct business freely. they will make the moves they need to make they probably orchestrated this not only on the ground but also they have probably red teamed it like we did a lot of times in d.c. before big events i'm not concerned about their ability to get him in and out safely >> let's go back to dasha burns who is outside of trump tower in

new york city. dasha, we have been watching the awning under trump tower looking for donald trump to start making his way over do you have any more information on timing? >> reporter: we are still waiting here as well we have seen crowds start to build up around here the police presence is starting to grow. we have a helicopter overhead here we anticipate that he may be coming out at any moment now as i mentioned, they are starting to block off traffic here around the trump tower block of fifth avenue. we saw this yesterday as the anticipation was growing this is a business district, a tourist district here. everyone that's been walking around here over the last few minutes, starting to break out their phones, starting to document this moment as this is where the choreography we have been talking about, that tiktok of this historic day is going to begin. he will depart to make that

journey down to the courthouse here at any moment >> dasha, thank you so much. the legal implications of today's indictment will become clearer once it's unsealed in the coming hour or two it may take longer to assess the political implications with polls showing former president trump's chances of securing the gop nomination rising after the indictment he raised $7 million plus and still growing. how much could it sway swing voters the majority of the former president's declared and potential primary rivals are defending him. new nbc news reporting reveals that some republican operatives think that support will not last long i want to talk about this with john kasich. you ran against donald trump briefly in 2016. you were a governor,

congressman. you know this whole landscape. how long is this going to last what if there's indictment on indictment does it build on the victimization? does it help him with primary voters >> i think in this case, there are a lot of republicans that say, is this really a legitimate and fair charge? no one is above the law. but it will be interesting to find out, how has everybody else been treated a public figure shouldn't have more scrutiny than anybody else. a lot of republicans are like, this is political. i talked with some folks this morning in the gym we wish he would go away when you look at georgia -- no republican or democrat that's knowledgeable that doesn't look at the georgia grand jury or the documents case, which seems to be percolating even more, i

think that's his -- that's the end of it. i suppose republicans could put up with this thing we see how the trial goes. you have to see what happens with the press conference today with the prosecutor. how does trump handle himself today? i notice that some of the republican support has slipped from him he is still up there at 80%. but it's not like the 90 some. the country says the indictment should go forward. i suspect that if, in fact, atlanta, georgia, comes back on the vote pressure scheme or either the document case i think that's going to be too much water for him to talk. he is like the master of escape. we have to wait and see. here is what i do know there's no way the guy will be president. there's no way these independent

voters and republicans who are normal people who are the traditional republicans, let me say that i don't want to call anybody abnormal but traditional republicans. there's no way in a million years that those people are going to vote for him. my view is, he will never be president. it's a pathetic day. the other thing i want to say is, i watched yesterday. these cars coming out of mar-a-lago we have to put the cameras on nine cars coming out then we show the airport then we show the plane it's like -- it was like the old empty podium we have to just -- it's ridiculous it's not that interesting. there's more interesting things happening. somehow i guess we are fedixated on it. >> the empty podium was to bring people in to a speech and arguably while showing the cars we were doing interviews i was interviewing asa hutchinson saying he should get

out of the race. na w that was not the same as say, stand by, we will have him speak. >> this is chris jansing you and i have talked about this over the last week or so this is a sad day in america it's also one that -- >> it is. >> it's one president trump believes he can turn into a good day for himself. we discussed the fact he raised a lot of money i want to ask you about places like ohio, which you know so well it's a state where trump beat biden. >> in a place -- the place where i smashed him in the primary >> yeah. >> i beat him by a couple hundred thousand votes i do understand the state. >> you understand it i would also argue, maybe based partly on my family and friends back in ohio, that those traditional people you talk about, while many of them are following this, other people have lives to live

i wonder if your overall sense is there is an exhaustion from donald trump by many of his vo voters, or is it more defiance what are you feeling in your state? >> i think there's a lot of exhaustion, and even people who are supporting him at this moment, thinking that this is some political deal, they are exhausted. his core base, they -- he can do just about anything and they hang with him. i think there is a level of exhaustion the good question about this, but when you move down to georgia, if something else happens there or the documents case happens, i think exhaustion is sort of like water in a boat. it begins to overflow the boat it begins to sink him. we have to see what happens in those cases. there's no way we can predict the future it's going to be -- i think you hit it there's people -- people are tired. they want this to go away. we saw it both when he ran for

re-election and we saw it in the midterms p people are fed up. those independents came out and they delivered a significant, i think, win in many respects for the democrats in the midterm elections. they have been think people areo this >> i want to ask you about those midterms and what it means for down ballot races in 2024, but just remind the viewers, 10 minutes from 1:00, still waiting, still watching 56th street in new york city, down there on your screen, underneath that maroon awning, 45 awning, where donald trump should be walking out. we have seen a larger gathering of men in navy blue suits in that doorway we expect it to happen pretty soon the indictment itself, the hearing is expected for 2:15 this afternoon donald trump will have to enter, get down to the courtroom first, enter the courtroom, be processed before he heads up to

the courtroom to be indicted in front of the judge so that will take some time. we do expect them to be leaving trump tower in order for that all to remain on time pretty soon governor, let's talk about the down ballot races. look back, 2018, 2020, 2022, republicans haven't done so well, especially republicans in competitive races who are campaigning on donald trump style politics maga style politics. if it remains the case in 2024, the republicans running in the shadow of trump do not do well, is that the point where the republican party starts to make a break from donald trump? i know we asked this question a thousand times is that the answer >> no, it is such a good point because, look, when you keep losing over and over again, whether you're a football team or basketball team or whether you're a political operation, you got to decide when enough's enough, when you're going to change and the agenda that -- i can't figure out what their agenda is. it is anything biden's for,

they're against or anything the democrats are for, they're against. they have got to start relating to people about what people care about. i'll tell you, growing among particularly among women, heard it this morning, this gun violence is a big issue. they can't put their heads in the sand over the gun violence issue. what about rising prescription drugs? what do we do about a border where nothing is working on the border you got 14-year-old kids who are immigrant children think about this, disgraceful, andrea these immigrant kids come over to the united states, they don't have a guardian, we find out they're in a meatpacking plant at the age of 14 they should be standing up against this and it is because we can't get a program involving immigration so we don't have enough workers so they turn to children it is -- they got to have an agenda if you have an agenda, you can win. if all you are is negative, forget it, i'm not interested in buying. >> former governor kasich, good to have you on the program, thank you so much.

we are keeping a close eye on trump tower where any minute the former president will travel that nearly four-mile journey south to a manhattan courthouse and he will hear roughly 30 charges against him for the first time he want to bring in msnbc chief legal correspondent, host of msnbc's the beat, ari melber faithful viewer of your show, you have talked to a lot of people who have been in this position, a pretty sobering moment when you go in, no matter your anticipation, when they tell you you're under arrest, when you get fingerprinted and then you got to go in the courtroom, potentially listen to those charges, what are you look for? what are you expecting >> i am looking to see one, had t when they unseal the indictment, is it the same counts with the payments to miss daniels or does it hit other things? does it have a bucket of three, four, five things, how broad is it that's the most important news we'll get today.

as for mr. trump, a defendant now in the state of new york, this is the first day of the rest of his life this will be sobering for him. this will be new for him he will feel the ink on his fingertips he will go into the courtroom. he will be asked to plead guilty or not guilty and only be allowed to say that. he'll be looking at a judge and people with weapons who are not there to protect him, who are not at his beck and call, while he also still is a former president, has his own secret service and that does add some particular particularities. i'll be looking to see, not in the bluster and the pr, but in the response today and the coming days, does he understand that the life he has led, the business he has run, the politics he has practiced which ensnared so many of his most senior people, many of whom went on to prison, that it could ensnare him that way while he also, as we will be careful to say throughout the process, remains legally presumed innocent. >> and, andrea, i think a day a lot of people thought might never come and certainly donald

trump if the reporting is correct, he never thought would come. >> exactly he certainly did not a lot of our reporting says the former president faces roughly 30 charges against him what will you and his legal team be looking for once we hear the charges? >> well, we reporting in washington will be looking at how do they break out, what are the more serious ones, if they are using this theory around false business records it hasn't been unsealed. so we got to get the government documents. if they do that, what escalated that, enhanced that to a felony. his legal team, andrea, a great question, will be looking for every which way they can attack this they obviously are going to file everything they can including motions to dismiss, which don't usually knock out an entire set of criminal charges, like this, but they can look at trying to draw, i would call, a legal version of the attacks in the arguments about unfair bias,

selective prosecution. here is the big difference and we're covering this today and in the days ahead, this ain't truth social and this ain't reddit, and this ain't qanon. if you want to say a legal claim should be tossed because of bias by the prosecutor or anyone on his team, let's have evidence of that if they provide it, you can bet we'll be reporting it here and it will be interesting if you show documentation, the diary entry, a conversation testified under oath that find bias, that find someone is -- is abusing prosecutorial powers, that would be big. but it is that indkind of evidee you need for a judge it is not just asserting that he has conspiracy theories or claims about a d.a >> let me ask you about the courtroom itself and the judge's decision, ari, about letting a camera into that courtroom it is not long-standing policy here in new york not to -- or there in new york not to have cameras in the courtroom the judge does have some

discretion for that to allow it. what do you make of the decision to say, no i ask that because it allows donald trump to say a lot about what might or might not have happened in that courtroom. >> it is a great question, katie. that was expected. that's precedent we mentioned there are some valid ways this is a little different than other defendants. but in the main, we'll see this judge and probably the appeals judges try to do this like they do other cases it makes sense they kept it that practice, which is a separate question of why new york is different than most states in the union now that do allow for more transparency. everyone talks about, for example, the o.j. trial or the gwyneth paltrow trial, one of the most important legal moments we have had in the last several decades, kidding, but for the point on cameras, we could see miss paltrow in court because they allowed cameras there that's their standard rule it is entirely fair to this and any defendant to use what is the standard rule of new york and to the wider point you make or allude to, katie, donald trump

talked a lot about his bluster and perp walk and leaks to the "new york times" about what he wants to do, he certainly didn't want to be seen out of control at the mercy of the judge, which is his new reality for as long as this case is a case >> so, again, we're still watching 56th street and we saw jason miller, donald trump's campaign spokesperson, last time around, and this time as well, just leave that building we also saw dan scavino who runs donald trump's social media and have been doing so for many years. it indicates to us we could be seeing donald trump any moment now. it will take him at least a few minutes to get from midtown manhattan, 56th street down to the courthouse in downtown manhattan. and in order for him to be on time, he should be leaving any second now and this might be one of the only glimpses we see of donald trump today, while he is in new york this short walk from those doors, those golden doors over to the waiting suv, that

obviously is not donald trump, that was the residence, next door to where he should be departing from and then perhaps the short walk down the hallway while he is at the courtroom. so we're going to wait and watch out for that chris? >> you mentioned the fact we saw jason miller, trump came to new york with his election team with his campaign team, very different from what you might have expected under any other circumstances with any other defendant. ari melber, thank you so much. you'll be back a little bit later. right now, you're watching msnbc's live coverage of former president donald trump's arraignment, where we're looking at a live picture just outside of the building where his apartment is that arraignment now just over an hour away i'm chris jansing, live in new york city, along with my colleagues andrea mitchell in washington and katy tur in london and at any moment now, we expect to see the former president leaving trump tower and travel in his secret service motorcade that four miles south

to the manhattan criminal courthouse >> that's where more than 100 members of the press along with nearly 500 protesters are gathered, some of them since dawn once former president trump arrives at the courthouse, he'll be met by a member of the d.a.'s office and notified he is under arrest pursuant to the indictment >> the former president will then be processed, fingerprinted and escorted to the courtroom for his arraignment. that's currently set for 2:15 p.m. east coast time we learned in the past hour, the upper floors of the courthouse are being cleared and a security sweep will be done before trump arrives. we should point out that much of this is going to be happening behind closed doors. we do expect to see the former president, though, as he heads into court if not before >> let's get right to our panel, nbc's dasha burns outside trump tower in new york city, yasmin vossoughian, barbara mcquaid,