courthouse >> that's where more than 100 members of the press along with nearly 500 protesters are gathered, some of them since dawn once former president trump arrives at the courthouse, he'll be met by a member of the d.a.'s office and notified he is under arrest pursuant to the indictment >> the former president will then be processed, fingerprinted and escorted to the courtroom for his arraignment. that's currently set for 2:15 p.m. east coast time we learned in the past hour, the upper floors of the courthouse are being cleared and a security sweep will be done before trump arrives. we should point out that much of this is going to be happening behind closed doors. we do expect to see the former president, though, as he heads into court if not before >> let's get right to our panel, nbc's dasha burns outside trump tower in new york city, yasmin vossoughian, barbara mcquaid, a former u.s. attorney, law

professor at the university of michigan and msnbc legal analyst, yamiche alcindor, nbc news washington correspondent. dasha, we're waiting, we're watching this historic moment. set the stage for us outside of trump tower. >> well, we have got a calm before the storm here yesterday. we had a massive crowd, a lot of noise today. it has been fairly quiet this is a business district, a tourist district, a lot of curiosity, a lot of onlookers. we have choppers overhead. we have got some anticipation building there are officers, heavy police presence here, some officers directing traffic right now, getting ready for the motorcade to make its way downtown and, look, this is a building, this is a residence that was the center of gravity for the trump campaign back in 2016, the center of his power. now, the place where he begins

to make a journey that is unlike a journey that he has made in new york city before now to downtown to the courthouse where he will be arraigned, where he will be under arrest without the power to leave a different moment for the former president than he has had in new york city and right now everyone here waiting to document this moment, whether it is tourists or folks who live around here, everyone seems to understand the historic nature of this moment here, guys. >> and nobody knows manhattan and the tabloid nature of dealing with the press in manhattan and in new york city than donald trump. back here in washington, republicans, yamiche, are -- house republicans are inserting themselves into all of this. we saw marjorie taylor greene there in new york city but jim jordan and james comer, two powerful chairs, warning the

judge not to issue a gag order, saying it would be unconstitutional now, we talked to chuck rosenberg earlier and he said it would be constitutionally questionable, because the first amendment of either candidate. but telling the judge not to issue a gag order no matter what happens here >> it is incredible. but in some ways it is par for the course for the republican party. we saw house speaker kevin mccarthy said he's going to hold the manhattan district attorney accountable. we have three house committees already looking into this investigation by the manhattan d.a. in some ways investigating the investigators already. before we even know what the details of this indictment are that does tell you that republicans are going full on when it comes to staying close to former president trump and defending him in every turn. we talked about his republican rivals coming to his defense it does tell you this is a full scale republican party that wants to make sure they're seen behind former president trump. it is interesting, though, you look at how house republicans are dealing with and how

republicans in the senate are dealing with this, they're much more cautious. that's the dynamic we have seen play out in this party it is even more interesting to watch how congress deals with this as this legal case goes on because lawmakers are going to have to answer questions about this we know having covered former president trump for a long time, if there was something close to a gag order, how could you really stop former president trump from tweeting, from attacking, this is what he does. he deals with legal problems as political problems as publicity problems so i think chuck rosenberg is i think apt to talk about the fact that it is really would become a constitutional first amendment issue when you think about a potential gag order. >> in this case, the judge is presiding over a case where his future is at stake and there are other cases to come and he's going to have to deal with that reality. >> also the reality of donald trump saying that his first amendment rights are being squashed if he issues a gag order. there would be mitigating circumstances for the judge to do so, he would have leverage

and room to not -- not leverage, but room to say you can't talk about x, you can't talk about y, you can't talk about z, but you're free to talk about anything else. yasmin vossoughian is there in front of the d.a.'s office in lower manhattan. when donald trump does get there, and, again, it is expected to be a 2:15 arraignment, what will happen before that? >> a couple of things i want to talk through and tell you as i'm talking i'm keeping my eye on the monitor below my camera to make sure we don't miss a moment he walks out of the building as well as what is happening behind me and in front of me. you see what is behind me, in front of me we have the ongoing protest here where marjorie taylor greene was at a couple of hours ago, here for ten minutes or so, a huge press gaggle around her and then she set off in her suv, where garrett haake got an interview with her inside the suv. the gag order, just about the conversation that we have been having down here as well, which

is that if a gag order were to be put in place, that would lend the narrative of the politization, right, of what the manhattan d.a. is doing, the likelihood of that being pretty low. talking you through the abcs of the whole thing as many people know in new york city pretty well, once the former president leaves trump tower, on 5th avenue and 56th street, he'll make his way downtown to lower manhattan where i am now this is center street where you see all the nypd and we have plain clothes officers throughout the area as well i'm watching intelligence gathering happening here with secret service, making sure security is in place you have secret service along hogan place behind me where the former president is going to be entering the building behind me about halfway down the block he's then going to be fingerprinted. we're learning he's not going to be handcuffed or mug shot taken. that's pretty normal for folks that are being charged with a white collar crime he's then going to make his way up to the 15th floor, we're

hearing from the former president's attorney joe tacopina, if the president enters the courtroom, if they're presented with the indictment at that moment, he will then ask for a brief recess whether or not that's going to be granted is under question, but ask for a brief recess, so they can review that indictment. there was some conversation as to whether or not that indictment would be presented to the attorneys before it was unsealed obviously that didn't happen because the former president's attorneys are now saying if he's presented with the indictments at the beginning of the court proceedings, they're going to be asking for the brief recess. all in question, and whether or not we're going to be hearing from the former president outside that courtroom also still under question >> rebecca, katy and i were

talking about the courthouse, when he came out, he said it is a great system, a system that works very different from what we have heard from him in recent years, just this morning, the former president again attacked judge merchan calling him highly partisan i'm wondering as a former ada what merchan's reputation is, how do you expect him to handle this highest of high profile cases, and donald trump, frankly, in particular >> the judge's reputation is extremely good he's a strong judge. well respected judge smart judge. i expect that he'll run this case like he runs any other, which is a lot of control over the courtroom, but kind of gentle hand. i don't think that he will pursue any sort of emotional reaction, even if prompted, even if it is possible that the former president tries to provoke him, i don't think

that's his style i think the main challenge in a case like this is there are so many ways in which it is exactly like any other case. and the judge ought to and will try to treat it as that. but we were just talking about something like the gag order, where you have to treat the case differently. there is -- you cannot -- the historic moment. >> and right now we see the former president is coming out there you see him, the traditional typical red tie, blocked by that nypd ambulance but he's getting into his car, we presume you can see the secret service there you have an aerial view. i believe that is -- you can see the cars all lined up. this is, as we know, 5th avenue, the corner of 5th avenue in the heart of midtown manhattan katy, you've been there so many times. >> yes, this is -- yeah.

trump tower, occupies almost an entire city block. but this is right at the corner of 5th avenue and 56th, headed toward madison avenue right now. it is expected he'll take madison avenue down quite some ways before getting on to the fdr as he heads toward manhattan criminal court and this is a city that is used to these sort of lockdowns whenever a dignitary, a president shows up in town, former or otherwise, the nypd knows how to operate this is obviously a heightened sense of security all along this route. i'm sorry, 5th avenue he'll take down because it is donald trump and donald trump is a controversial figure, across the country. he always has a heightened amount of security, certainly so in new york city we do believe there is going to be a tent down at criminal court, so we won't see him getting out of his suv, and

that's partially because it is a difficult place to protect somebody in new york city with all of these tall buildings around it is difficult to make sure that somebody walking into a building or out of a building or down a street might not be a target from somebody in a window up above, so the secret service obviously is going to be taking every precaution we don't expect this journey to take very long maybe just a few minutes usually if you're sitting in new york city and trying to get around the city at this hour of day, it will take you long no matter what, even if it is just a one-mile journey because donald trump has this escort, it shouldn't take but a few minutes to get down there. andrea, i believe you wanted to add something. >> breaking news here, a three-judge panel of the u.s. court of appeals for the d.c. circuit has denied an emergency motion filed by president trump's legal team yesterday seeking to stop several of his top aides including mark meadows from testifying before the

federal grand jury this is a sealed proceeding, the documents are not public, but nbc news previously confirmed that that is the docket associated with the appeal this is a very big deal. not clear if trump intends to appeal the appeal denied to the full circuit court or the supreme court. >> it is a good reminder of just all that donald trump is currently facing it is not just this indictment here in new york city. this is the first indictment that he's faced. it is all of the other cases there is the two special counsel cases, one looking into the classified documents, the other looking into the leadup to january 6th, where a number of his top aides will be forced to testify. donald trump trying to stop that let's see if he goes to the full panel, court of appeals panel and potentially the supreme court to try to stop that from happening. there is also the georgia d.a. looking into his role in what happened in georgia, in the 2020 election there are a number of cases that he's facing and this is just the first one to bring an

indictment it is not clear if the other ones will, but this is certainly the first one to bring an indictment barb, i don't know if you're still with us, i want to get you on the record for what andrea reported about the denial. what is your expectation of where it goes? >> that's a very significant decision today because it seems that mark meadows and some of the key aides are part of the last phases that you would imagine jack smith wants to put in the grand jury before he can complete his investigation so very significant that we have seen this quick decision in the court of appeals i imagine donald trump will be weighing his options delay is his friend. if only for that reason, i could imagine him first appealing it to the full en banc court of appeal and the supreme court i don't think he's going to win. this law is very quite clear under the precedent of u.s. versus nixon, executive privilege yields when it comes to a grand jury investigation. i'm pleased to seeing it is moving so quickly, because ultimately i think they will get this evidence and it is just a

matter how long donald trump can stall before he gets it. >> so we watch as donald trump makes his way down to be arraigned on charges that we don't yet know the details of, but which nypd, secret service, other law enforcement agencies have been preparing for quite some time now. you see the edge there of one of the helicopters. joining us, somebody who knows a lot about the preparations that would have gone into this, former nypd commissioner bill bratton, now executive chairman of risk advisory taneo you know the nypd better than almost anyone. what is their posture right now? >> what you're seeing on the screen, a lot of coverage. >> show of force >> show of force a lot going on behind the scenes, however. probably more importantly behind the scenes intelligence gathering to ensure that they're aware of any potential threats. what they're most concerned with is what they're not aware of, the potential lone wolf, but at the moment there has been no

active threats made against this event of mr. trump or the district attorney. >> what is the level of confidence or is that the wrong word you're never confident until it's over. >> good expression but i think they have a high level of confidence that this event is well in hand. they probably outnumber even the huge amount of media down there today in the totality of the coverage they have in that area. >> we saw some people shouting at each other. there was a little scuffle that broke out between trump supporters and detractors. expected this is certainly not the first kind of gathering where police had to deal with that. decide when to go in, when not to are the rules any different today than they would be for any other gathering, any other protest like this where you have two sides? >> not at all. they try to keep them apart. when i saw it was shown, anti-trump, the department community, relations people, blue jackets, sought to get in the middle, keep them apart, keep the knuckle heads away from

each other basically is what they try to do. >> i'm guessing you have no hesitation about saying donald trump will get out of his car and get into that courthouse without any problem? >> no issues at all. i guess what everybody is waiting to see is when he comes out of the court, is he going to stop and say something or get back in that car and fly down to mar-a-lago >> and, bill, andrea mitchell here, take us inside the nypd. what kind of special expertise in the areas of intelligence training, counterprotests, movement, what is the key units that are prepared for any contingency today? >> this is where the expertise and the experience of the nypd really shows there is no police department in america that has the capacity, the number of personnel, the intelligence gathering capabilities and the relationships with their colleagues, fbi, and all of secret service in this case, if you have something like this,

this is the place to have it there is no place that can handle it in a better way in terms of the sheer expertise brought into the mix. >> so we're watching donald trump's motorcade go down the fdr, which is the main highway on the east side there in new york city. he is just minutes away from getting to the courthouse there. getting pretty close right now commissioner, let me ask you about what happens beyond this this is a major effort of the nypd to protect him while he's there. what about the efforts going forward to protect the d.a., alvin bragg, to protect him and his staff, to protect the jury who might be seated on a jury if this does end up going to trial. what is that go to be like >> that's a great question that the department, intelligence division has a threat assessment unit that will look at all aspects of any of the future actions that will come out of this arraignment today and that would include certainly potential jurors, the judge, mr.

trump himself again, if he ends up having to come back into court once again the threat assessment capacity and capability, my predecessor ray kelly did a phenomenal job after 9/11 significantly enhancing those abilities and it served the department in this city, this country very well in 20 some at odd years. >> if there is one thing that donald trump likes to show, it is strength. he wants to show that he is in control. we have some i think still photos of him when he was leaving trump tower a little while ago, you see it on the other side, he's waving, i'm told at one point he had a little fist bump maybe to some of the people who were gathered there. i remember listening since we were talking to ari melber a little while ago of michael cohen being on his program and saying that this isn't something that donald trump will deal well with, and i can't imagine that for many white collar people who are charged with white collar

crimes they're used to being in control. there is no control, is there, when he enters that courtroom. >> absolutely. so, i think that's one of the reasons that you sort of had this ironic motion by the trump defense team saying, we do not want cameras in the courtroom, we don't want it to be a circus. well, of course, what he's really saying is i don't want to be viewed in a position where i am not in control. and for many white collar defendants, who especially like executives and ceos, this is the first time in your life you have a type-a personality who doesn't run the show, where people aren't just sucking up to that person and saying yes to them. they actually have to take orders and directions from something that is out of their control, which is the court system and here where you have somebody who is a criminal defendant, you know, this is -- they do not get to dictate what is happening, the judge does so they can make motions and they can -- as ari said, they have to have facts and law on

their side but they really are in a very different position so donald trump will find himself just like any other defendant, particularly any other sort of white collar defendant, where, yes, he can afford a very good legal team, but he's not going to be calling the shots the way he is used to when he's either the head of the trump organization or the president of the united states >> we're not expecting a mug shot we just got that information, but you were nodding when we were listening to andrea say for many of the folks who have been ceos or anyone else in a position of power, they're not used to ceding that power. that goes for whether you're in the courtroom and your legal team is telling you what to do, the judge is telling you what to do, or your security team is telling you what to do is that what the nod was for >> giuliani, in his day, when he was a prosecutor, understood the impact of the perp walk. the perp walk.

president is going to have his own version of that, but walk down the hallway from being fingerprinted into the courtroom. there won't be a mug shot. there will still be the idea of putting your hands on those electric scanners for the fingerprints and then going down that hallway and it will be some press in that hallway. in the courtroom itself, a couple hundred media in that courtroom. and he is not in control the judge is in control of that moment mr. trump is not used to not being in control >> andrea? >> rebecca, we have not seen anything like this as a former prosecutor you know how your fellow prosecutors are dealing with it. how does the judge and the former prosecutors deal with not only the threats against them, but the pressure of something that has never happened before they have seen a lot of cases from 9/11 cases to harvey weinstein, you know, celebrated cases in manhattan, but nothing like this. >> i think that's right. it is fair to acknowledge that i think these are people who are

trained to shut out what is going on outside the courtroom so i think that in a certain way they will present very calm and collected manner but at the same time, it is hard for them to -- those things. in a normal case, threats against prosecutors are not -- they're taken seriously, but prosecutors are kind of fundable, you can replace one with another i think most criminal defendants understand that and unless you make it personal, they really don't pose such a great danger but in the situation like this, where it is so charged, and it is more than just a threat from a particular individual, rather sort of sense of threat and a sense of attack from a whole portion of the population, i think that must be extremely hard to deal with. and i guess they have to muster all of the professional training that they have had and experience they had to retain that attitude that, you know,

what is important is the facts and the law and the case in front of them. >> as you can see, they're off the highway and you can look with your own eyes about how prepared the nypd was, all the barriers that they have placed around this streets of lower manhattan, a couple more lefts and donald trump will be getting -- or one more left, donald trump will get out of the suv and entering into the d.a.'s office or where they're going to set up as the d.a.'s office to be fingerprinted no mug shot. but after that mug shot, after that fingerprinting, he will walk down the halls to the courtroom, where he will be arraigned. yasmin vossoughian is standing by for us out there. the motorcade just passed by what can you tell us >> it hasn't passed by pulling off on hogan place behind where i'm standing now. a massive motorcade, the secret service, the motorcade getting into formation for former president stepping out of his vehicle, the secret service now stepping outside, looking

around, massive secret service presence, all along this street there. then you see the former president there stepping out of his vehicle. he gave a wave to the crowd here, making his way into the building where he'll be fingerprinted and you know he will not in fact have a mug shot taken of him >> a wave, but a very serious look for donald trump as he makes his way into that building for what we have accurately described as a very serious if nam proceeding, probably hundreds of those folks who go through, but we saw that trump has been posting on truth social, andrea >> this post is heading to lower manhattan, the courthouse, this is from the car, seems so surreal, wow, are they going to arrest me, can't believe this is happening in america, maga

it is penetrating and, chris and katy, we all covered donald trump, you know, for a long time, you spent the most time with him during the campaign, this is surreal. it is surreal for everyone in america. but for him, it is penetrating it is this serious, he's using it to his advantage, not only has he raised money, built built sup but he's built support he is going to be fingerprinted. he's going to put his hands on the digital fingerprint reader and this is, you know, this is donald trump unlike the powerful man you covered, the fist bumping president of the united states. >> yeah, and, listen, this is donald trump being treated, i mean, with a few caveats, being

treated like everybody else, accused of committing a crime, and now he's being fingerprinted. he no longer has the office of the presidency to protect him, and as i was watching that motorcade go down the fdr, it was so reminiscent of the first time that we saw a really big, wasn't a motor cate, but something that looked similar, the slow speed o.j. trchase that is burned into my brain and the straight line you can draw from what happened there with that trial, and the media coverage, and the circus that it produced, and the reality show that came of it, reality show as news, to what we saw with donald trump and his rise in 2016, all of those rallies, the attention that he got, the unparalleled media time that he got, that his rivals complain so much about, he was getting all the attention and they weren't getting anything and what happened in the presidency, this is just an

extension of that. it is more of the same donald trump, again, and it is so overused at this point, but sucking the oxygen from just about everything the question is will it still benefit from him, and i think that's not as clear. it benefited in 2016, it hasn't benefitted in every election after that 2018, 2020, 2022, that's the evidence we have before us and in each of those elections, voters rejected donald trump and his style of politics. republicans haven't done well in those elections. donald trump didn't win the 2020 race how does this all that we're seeing help him in 2024? >> i think it is worth taking a pause for a moment and recognizing the moment that we're in, that we have never been in before and that is that when he walked into the courthouse, and he was escorted officially, donald

trump, former president of the united states, front-runner for the republican nomination for president of the united states is now under arrest. we have never seen it before it is a sobering moment. and even though he's very consistent, sending out social media posts from the car, saying, again, seems so surreal, wow. they're going to arrest me can't believe this is happening in america you can shorten that and say, that for donald trump, perhaps he can't believe this is happening. he did not believe certainly in this case from the reporting, from inside, that this was going to happen. and it has now happened. donald j. trump is under arrest. andrew wiseman, your thoughts. >> when you were talking to governor kasich, there is a discussion about whether this is a sad day and i just wanted to

give a different way that i think the prosecutors in this case might be looking at it, many viewers, which is there is no question that there is a sadness to what we're seeing and having a former president who is under arrest, but -- >> take the person out of it, but the fact that somebody who was the leader of the free world is now under indictment. >> absolutely. but i think the sadness is the -- if you're looking at this from a prosecutor's perspective, i think they would say the sadness was the crimes committed. that's the sadness you have somebody who has committed crimes and now charged with committing crimes before he became president and partly while he was president and he's under criminal investigation for crimes while he was president and after he was president the whole panoply of charges that are under investigation some of which have now been charged and so being held to account on having the criminal

justice system catch up to him, in many ways, yes, it is sad, but it is also affirmation of what you want to see in the criminal justice system, which it doesn't matter if you are the former president of the united states or you are somebody who the nypd picks up every day for regular street crimes and they all go through that door, and more or less are treated exactly the same way so, yes, it is sad to see this, but in many ways this is affirming of the criminal justice system that is part of the -- what it means to be an american. >> and foundational to our insti constitution and what america was founded on. >> and i want to pick up on something, because as tawdry and tabloidy, if you will, as these charges may be, once this indictment is unsealed, and as much criticism there has been

from more than just republicans this is not the case they want to see coming first and this trial may be well down the road and there could be other indictments and other trials that proceed this, i want going to your reaction to the fact that on the special counsel's investigation, the appeals court has now ruled that mark meadows and others in this sealed denial that we have now gotten from the docket, they have denied the appeal that was filed last night. and that this can still be appealed to the court on bond, and on to the supreme court. but delays notwithstanding, that eventually is likely to be the former chief of staff testifying and others. >> yes that is a huge development i would note that mark meadows going into the grand jury, if he testifies along with other aides and if they testify could

provide evidence that is central to the federal january 6th case that is central to the georgia case, and also could be relevant to the mar-a-lago case so it really implicates all three of the outstanding criminal cases i agree with barb, as a habit, i try never to disagree with her, you'll be on poor footing. but this is an area where the law is very settled, and that i don't expect this is one where that donald trump is going to prevail or even be able to delay this much further. he would have to get a stay at this point many of these people are now going to go into the grand jury. i just want to caution, though, with respect to mark meadows, he may assert the fifth amendment i don't think it is a given he will actually go in and testify.

it is a correct low bar to assert the fifth amendment, you only have to have essentially a good faith belief that the answer you give would incriminate you. it is a constitutional right, so we should not be denigrating it. and if he asserts the fifth, it will be up to jack smith to decide does he have enough proof to charge him, or is he going to immunize him to force his testimony because he will essentially give immunity in exchange for his testifying. >> does he try to turn him if that is the case i love that we have such bright and knowledgeable and also collegial legal analysts on our team let's bring in another one, former acting solicitor general neil casio joins us. this is the first time we have spoken to you today. i want to get your top line thoughts. >> i think it is a kind of day of reckoning for donald trump. the images we're seeing, the former president arrested for the first time in american history, i mean, that is a

striking thing and in addition going on in washington, d.c. right now is what we have just been discussing that the nation's second highest court has ruled against donald trump's attempt to try and block the testimony of senior white house officials. this is a panel that included a very prominent trump appointed judge. it is a 3-0 decision trump tried to assert executive privilege, just as last year he lost that in the supreme court 8-1. he lost it here 3-0. they can try and take this to the united states supreme court, but my strong, strong educated guess here is it is going nowhere and going nowhere fast that show is going to get on the road we're looking now not only at trump facing now -- he's been arrested in new york, for two different federal criminal investigations against him, going on in washington for the stolen documents as well as january 6th. and there is what is going on in

georgia, and the stolen election claims there so, while everything today is super important, it is historic, not something that we -- it is not the whole ball game. and, of course, you know, it is to pick up on andrew's point, it is a sad day we should celebrate the fact that america has a rule of law, that ultimately people are treated equally, and that today's actions demonstrate that, but, you know, i represent criminal defendants going into these things, it is horrific and there is a human element here that shouldn't be lost. >> let's point out we're unique in that circumstance a lot of our allies have indicted leaders it has happened before we haven't gotten to that point. does it give you any solace to think we're now able to do this?

that we as a country can now acknowledge that even our leaders can do wrong >> 100%. and, you know, i think, you know, i've always known america can do this. to me, that's never been the question it is always been nice that we never had to actually confront the question until now but you're absolutely right. country after country has gone through exactly what we're going through, and i think donald trump, for his presidency, preyed on the fact that we never had this history before. and so, used this to say, and is using it now to say this is all political. no, it is not. these are serious charges and other investigations are serious, and, you know, i think it is the day of reckoning and it is right. >> i want to ask you about the day of reckoning if i can and ask you to make another educated guess. it is worth reminding people as donald trump is in there, being fingerprinted, having been

arrested, we haven't seen the indictments yet. and reckoning has -- gives a nervousness to some people who wonder and said very publicly should this have been the first case, should this have been a case at all. my first opportunity to ask you, what are you looking for in this, it says, oh, i get why alvin bragg did this. >> the genius of our system is that you have different state investigations going on in georgia and new york and the federal ones the prosecutors don't coordinate and say what is the strongest case there is a prosecutor, you bring your case when it is ready this is the first one that is ready and it makes sense, these are the oldest sets of facts, the facts as we understand them start in 2016 and the other things like the stolen documents or january 6th, much more recent investigations it is not surprising to me that this is first and, you know, anyone who says this is the weakest, it shouldn't be brought, i don't think you get

out of jail free card because you committed more serious crimes somewhere else, it means bring them both when they're ready. i'm looking for two things is this an indictment just about the storm kri y daniels payment other things, like the mcdougal nat national enquirer allegations that were being seen and talked about in the media over the last couple of days that's number one. fraudulent business records, record keeping, is a standard crime in new york. this d.a. prosecutes this all the time to make it a felony, they got to say it was in service of some other crime, probably campaign finance, but is what they're going to use or something else in addition, tax or something like that. i'm looking for what is that aggravator they're going to use to bump it up to a felony. if it is only a misdemeanor, that's still really serious.

remember donald trump in 2015 and '16 was saying lock her up about hillary clinton, that was a misdemeanor, and he was saying this is the most significant thing. >> how complicated could the other cases be to prove? >> within the new york case, yeah, so, i mean, if it goes to the campaign finance stuff, there is this whole argument about how state law can't be used when in service of a federal violation. if it is a federal campaign violation, the federal law preempts or displaces the state prosecution and maybe they have to go to federal court i think these are technical legal arguments. i don't think they're going to work here. i think at the end of the day, trump doesn't have a strong legal argument we'll see what his factual argument is, the indictments we're hearing about them doesn't sound to me like the preemption argument is going to fly they'll be made, like in any complicated case

>> neal, to the mar-a-lago documents issue. "the washington post" reported a significant story which seemed to advance the number of witnesses that they may have on that case, and how far advanced he may be. if that is the case, we haven't confirmed that at nbc, but if that reporting is correct, and it is very detailed reporting, could that case actually precede and go to trial even sooner than this one >> absolutely. i always felt like the mar-a-lago stolen documents investigation is a cleaner and simpler case and there were two things, andrea, that "the washington post" pointed out yesterday. one was as you say that they're bringing in additional witnesses, including the secret service. and, second, they pointed out that trump is alleged to have seen these documents after the subpoena, going through them, and saying i want to keep these documents like a 3-year-old because they're mine

they're mine both things are incredibly significant. on the secret service front, secret service is so loathe to testify in criminal cases. i went and -- i watched the prosecution in the bill clinton investigation and they came in to give their presentation to the attorney general of why they shouldn't have to testify in the monica lewinsky investigation. it was really moving and the like but here, when you're dealing with the former president, i think there may be a little bit less of that, and a need to get that testimony and then, second, with respect to this other thing about trump being in the center of the document scandal, his defense has been i didn't know anything about this, i've been out of the loop and so on, and the testimony for -- the reports yesterday of the testimony suggest that donald trump was central to the scheme, that he was the orchestrater -- the

obstructer in chief and obstruction is really important in this investigation because it is not just about the fact he stole these highly sensitive documents, it is about what he did when he was confronted with that and sending his lawyer out to potentially lie and say all the documents were turned over when more than 100 were not that's not something former vice president pence did, that's not something president biden did, but it sure looks like it is something that donald trump did. and so, a day of reckoning is coming on that, i very much suspect. >> neal, i'm going to pick on you and ask another question in 2016, donald trump said a lot that you can't vote for hillary clinton because she's going to be under indictment, you can't have somebody in office who is under indictment donald trump is now under indictment he could go to trial, he could be convicted he could, could, serve prison time, not likely in the case of this we'll see the indictment and all the charges listed so we don't

quite know yet but there are a number of other cases as well that could put him in the same position, this is a live shot of the hallway that donald trump will be walking down to go from the room where he's being processed to the courtroom where he will be officially arraigned we'll see a shot of him once that begins. we'll keep an eye on this. but just lay out for the constitution for me, neal, about the qualifications to run for the presidency, and to be president, anything in the criminal law if you're convicted, if you're a convicted felon, even, if you're serving in jail, barring you from being president. >> so the constitution says you got to be 35 years old, you got to be a natural born citizen, it doesn't specifically talk about arrest, indictment, or conviction so as donald trump walks down that hall, i think it is important for us all to remember he's presumed innocent in the eyes of the law. he's not guilty. he's not stripped from office holding or anything like that.

if he is convicted, then there is an interesting question, some federal offenses like seditious conspiracy, something he might have to face one day, expressly bar him from -- bar someone convicted of it from future office holding my view is if someone is convicted under at least the federal -- for a federal crime, they're ineligible to serve as president because they can't vote, and if you can't -- if you can't vote, you can't be voted for. but that is something that is untested in the law, and because, you know, like many things with donald trump, we're in an unprecedented situation for the first time we should all remember that donald trump is presumed innocent and we'll hear what the facts and evidence show. >> even presumed innocent, there has been a lot of conversation, i'm curious your take on the influence the judge could have on donald trump's ability to run the campaign he wants to run. and specifically whether he could shut down some of the

things that donald trump has been saying or putting out there in social media. he previously called the prosecutor a degenerate psychopath he claimed that judge merchan hates him. what are the chances, do you think, that today or sometime in the near future, the judge shuts that down and says you can go, you can campaign for president, you can talk about the issue but you can't attack the prosecutor you can't incite anything. >> i think there is definitely a possibility that could happen. i imagine a judge presiding over a case involving a candidate for president would be particularly reluctant to enter such a gag order. it could happen. we saw this happen in the case of roger stone, who was making statements about the judge in his case, even posting on social media a photo of the judge's face with rifle cross hairs across her face. which was perceived as a threat and issued a gag order in that case i would imagine a judge in a

case like this would use what we might call progressive discipline in the employment context, that is starting with a warning, and then, you know, threatening to jail, and ultimately the power the judge does have is to jail donald trump, he could ultimately jail him. i think he's going to give him a long leash before he does that but he could say, you can go on the campaign trail, you can talk about all of your campaign ideas, but you can't make insults against the prosecutor or against the court i think it is difficult to restrain him, even from defending himself against these charges, because if he is running for president, certainly he needs to be able to say to the public, you know, i didn't commit these crimes or whatever explanation he may have. so that's possible i think it is also possible that there could be restrictions on his travel, though unlikely, in light of his campaign schedule and there will be orders for him

to appear in court for court hearings and that could cause some conflicts i think largely he'll be able to conduct his campaign uninhibited while defending himself in this case. >> while we watch the corridor where the former president will walk down the corridor toward the courtroom to be processed, which is what is going on right now, talk to us about what is happening right now. in addition to the fingerprinting, we know he's not going to have a mug shot, not going to be handcuffed, he's surrounded and protected by secret service and there is little if any argument he's going to flee. but bail, i presume, is not even an issue is he read his rights? what about the miranda warnings? at what point does that happen >> absolutely. there are certain parts of processing that just have to happen and that is one of them once somebody is under arrest, they're in custody, and if they're interrogated, they must

be read their miranda warnings first. and so, that will certainly happen at some point and so, you know, the exceptions that are being made, i think it is important to note because it is not that he's being treated differently for no reason. there are reasons why. and because he's not -- he doesn't pose a flight risk and because he has secret service right there, it almost would seem as if it were unnecessary and a bit overmuch to do something like have him in handcuffs. there are certain adjustments they can agree to, that makes sense under the circumstances, and there are others where there is no flexibility. so absolutely he's going to be fingerprinted, processed, read his miranda warnings and then come to court. and right now i assume that that is going on, and that they're making preparations to unseal that indictment. >> andrew, let me ask you about something that peter baker brought up last week about what sort of precedent this might set

and whether you're going to have other d.a.s in other states who are -- who have a bone to pick with the former president bring charges against him. the example he used was maybe a d.a. in texas or arizona, bringing charges against president biden when he's out of office saying he didn't adequately protect the borders do you think that that sort of thing could happen after this? i know we're still yet to see the details of the indictment, but we do have a broad understanding of what we believe them to be >> this is the argument that is made that this is sort of selective prosecution and that this is going to turn our country into a so-called banana republic people think not holding someone to account is what would turn our country into a banana republic if they commit crimes and i think the concern that this opens the floodgates to states and other d.a.s doing this with other presidents, one,

there is no evidence that that would happen but let's just take that as a possible outcome there is a criminal justice system so this is not a case here that we're seeing which happened in some strange jurisdiction unrelated to where donald where donald trump committed the alleged crime. this is his hometown, where his organization was but it's the d.a. who actually has jurisdiction over this type of crime and this alleged crime second, actually, the criminal justice process here, this is not the d.a. deciding to bring charges. this is the grand jury that has decided and has to do that based on evidence. and then finally, let's remember that we're seeing an indictment that will come out today and be released by the court. but ultimately, a trial jury is the ultimate protection. because these charges have to be either established beyond a reasonable doubt, to a unanimous

jury, or not so, if we find ourselves in a situation where other leaders committed crimes in other jurisdictions, you know what, if that's what they did, they should be held to account. then it's not so much this could happen somewhere else to a future president this actually is a warning that a future president should commit crimes should expect to see that they will be held to account so, i think those are all of the sort of counterarguments to that sort of, you know, what if, arguments down the road. >> katy, if i can say one other thing here >> go ahead. >> the law does provide a different mechanism to prevent these kind of rogue people going after the president. so an accusation that the president did something wrong at the border, for example, in the performance of his duties, it is incredibly hard, legally, to pierce that immunity

i argued the ashcroft case which was 9-0, in which the supreme court said unanimously there was a zone of freedom for government actors, and you don't want to go after them to put it differently, it's like really hard for a former president to be indicted but you really have to try it's like tinder wood. yes, donald trump is about to do it, but that's something that we're talking about for future presidents >> we're 20-plus minutes away from what will be the arraignment of donald j. trump 2:15 is scheduled. it's 1:52 eastern time we're waiting for donald trump once he is done with that processing, he will come down the hallway and head to the courtroom. but, neal, one thing you know, this is a president who loves to talk and i think you'd agree with me, most lawyers do want any

defendant to talk. better seen than heard he has a speech tonight. we don't know if we'll hear from him between now and then but do you always look at if your client says something that it's a potential gift to the prosecution? especially in this case. >> yeah, you're right, leave it to donald trump to be the first person indicted and want to give a speech back at the scene of another crime, mar-a-lago, where he's going to, you know, speak and probably antagonize his defense lawyers. it's only evidence for the prosecutors. but i think from trump's perspective, he's got politics here as well, he's trying to use it to rile up his base and try to raise fundraising and so on at some point, there is going to be this fundamental clash between trump's political instincts and his legal needs. and as a lawyer, i feel for those lawyers, i don't know how you can navigate that and a client who is very, very

unwilling, to put it mildly. and as you see if there are other indictments in georgia, at the federal level, he's become even more complicated. and so i suspect, what's going to happen today, the judge is going to say here's some guidelines on what you can and cannot say donald trump probably, you know, admonitions, as barbara said, i think it will be progressive discipline, i think is the word she used i think of that as how i kind of discipline my 3-year-old or something. you know, over time, it becomes more and more severe but i think this charge is going to care a little less about the trumps rights and so on. >> as neal was talking about, being at a primary voting place. i've got a phone call, we think trump is going to come over, you should try to talk to him. i hung up and laughed to my producer, try to keep donald

trump away from a live camera. i mean, i mean, it's not who will he is, not to defend himself, not to use his political instincts, katy. >> no he runs towards controversy. i used this during the campaign, he got a stain on his shirt, instead of trying to get the stain out, don't look at the stain, he just added more mustard and pickle juice and whatnot to make it a blur that you couldn't tell where the stain was. the question is, does that shirt still appeal to voters do they still want that pattern on the shirt or are they getting tired of it? that being said, there has been criticism about this particular case being brought and what the d.a. had to do, to go back to bring a days like this and i think it's worth getting your legal analysis on this, barbara. this case was about a payment from 2016 that was paid back in 2018 in order for the statute of

limitations to work here, the d.a. is going to have to say that the time that donald trump spent in office in washington, d.c. doesn't count, in order to make the statute of limitations work they spent five years trying to build this case, according to reporting from "the new york times. if you are somebody who thinks donald trump has been unfairly targeted, unfairly picked apart over the years, doesn't all -- don't all of those details kind of make you feel like maybe you're right, he has been unfairly treated the fact that they had to go through so many years ofthis investigation, and then go back and use a statute of limitations carve-out to bring this case and then potentially elevate it from a misdemeanor to a felony based on a potential legal theory? >> no, because the reason for all of this delay is trump's own

fighting against producing the documents. you may recall that cy vance had to go to the supreme court to get a warrant for someone who is a sitting president to get his financial records. all of that was extended by years. so if we were to take that position that he is not to be charged in this particular situation, so what we're saying is, as long as you fight long enough to delay, you win you don't get the case charged against you, and that can't be i think the fact that the prosecutors persevered and got these records together, it speaks to their responsibility to exercise their jobs and perform their duties with dill benefits and it's donald trump's own action that has caused the delay in this case >> and immeche, you've been covering donald trump and the trump white house, the fact that he's welcoming this walk down

the hallway it is not -- it does not suggest a perp walk, that's what this is, if you boil it down, but he's welcoming that. you can see the hallway, when he comes out, all of these officers are going to be at attention this could happen at any moment, by the way it's 1:57 in the east. we expect at arraignment officially to start at 2:15. he may want to say something as he comes down after he's been processed. he's been fingerprinted. he's been read his rights. he's not had a mug shot, he is not handcuffed we expect he's going to speak. and that is the donald trump you have covered >> it is it is predictive of him, and characteristic of how he's handled his life, even if it's someone that he doesn't want to acknowledge, for you to go from former president and out of borough person who made it big,

owned the city of manhattan, the borough of manhattan and then end up in this courthouse where you're not allowed to be and orchestrate your own perp walk it just shows that he's trying to make the best out of a terrible situation donald trump does not want to be here he skirts against the law, he pushes and walks right up to the line but he does not want to be in court being indicted on charges. it's remarkable to me that we see this moment. i also think it tells you the scandals and in some ways the whiplash you that see, when you think of donald trump becoming a reality tv star to becoming president and in this case, having to deal with this criminal case. it is remarkable and surreal, like you put it. in some ways, he was going after the whole process, i call it surreal, i think it really it apt to call this surreal after january 6, not only what was covered, a moment like this, a day like this, just feels

unreal as we're sitting in this situation for him walking down to the courthouse. >> it's working for him so far, mika, the polling is up, with the republican voters, which is all he focused on because he's not a long-term planner, he's immediate gratification, as you know, looking for it as he tries to get the nomination. >> especially when you think of the consequences as katy smartly pointed out and as you smartly point out, this does not work in the general sense, you think of 2018, 2022, when it comes to the republican party, this is allowing him to still have a grip on the party, even though he's lost such big elections this is a party that's still falling in love with the idea of victim he's been a showman in the idea that he is saying a grand conspiracy all of the problems he's dealing with, only because he wanted to run for president and better for the country. he's been remarkably consistent in that messaging,