good to be with all of you, i'm alex witt in for katy tur. we have news just into us on former vice president mike pence's role in the special investigation of former president donald trump pence will not appeal a federal

judge's order that he testify in the probe. laura jarrett will be joining us shortly with her reporting on that. first as we come on the air, we are watching history house speaker kevin mccarthy is meeting right now with taiwan's president ing-wen, the first meeting since 1979 when the u.s. ended diplomatic negotiations with taiwan in a deal to establish a relationship with china. they are expected to deliver a joint address at any moment. we're going to bring that to you as soon as it gets underway. no doubt beijing is also watching very closely as the president is capping off a ten-day diplomatic mission intended to strengthen taiwan's relationships with its foreign partners the announced stopover in the u.s. prompted immediate condemnation and threats of retaliation from china chinese leaders have repeatedly called on the u.s. not to engage with taiwan officials. the people's republic of china claims taiwan as its territory

the u.s. government stance is not to take a position, meaning there's no official recognition of taiwan's independence however, before the meeting even began, house speaker kevin mccarthy may have already upset china referring to taiwan as an independent country. >> i'm going to sit down with the president of taiwan, make our relationship stronger as we go through they believe in freedom. >> joining me now from the reagan library, that is where speaker mccarthy and president tsai are meeting and we have erin mclaughlin, courtney kube, and punch bowl news cofounder and msnbc political contributor jake sherman. welcome to all three of you. first to you, erin, what is the significance of meeting on u.s. soil >> reporter: this is a contentious moment, and that's evidenced by the dueling

protests currently playing outside of the reagan presidential library where i am right now. there's about 100 protesters in total seemingly evenly split between pro taiwan protesters and pro china protesters that protest spilling out into the skies even there's a plane that has been circling the library declaring taiwan to be a part of china and it's with that backdrop that president tsai and speaker mccarthy -- i understand they're delivering their statements. >> they are. let's listen to them address. >> here at this library, there are countless exhibit that is capture president reagan's patriotic spirit, his belief in democracy and commitment to the ideas of peace and freedom those values have always served as the bedrock of our friendship with the people of taiwan.

and they are more important now than ever before i believe our bond is stronger now than at any time or point in my lifetime. and of course president tsai is a great champion of that bond. taiwan is a successful democracy, a thriving economy. and a global leader in health and science. and whether it's our deep commercial ties, strong people-to-people relationships or shared values, our cooperation with the people of taiwan continue to expand through dialogue and exchange. the friendship between the people of taiwan and america is a matter of profound importance to the free world, and it is critical to maintain economic freedom, peace and regional stability. we will honor our obligations and reiterate our commitment to

our shared values behind which all americans are united today was a bipartisan meeting of republicans and democrats united together in a place that symbolizes the freedom and the commitment and the bond that has only become stronger with the president with us today. president tsai >> thank you speaker mccarthy, friends, i am delighted to visit the ronald reagan presidential library once again. this time with speaker mccarthy and distinguished members of the congress i want to thank speaker mccarthy for his warm hospitality and for his invitation to bipartisan congressional leaders who have taken time out of their busy schedules to join us today

their presence and unwavering support reassure the people of taiwan that we are not isolated and we are not alone it is especially fitting for us to meet here to pay tribute to a distinguished american president and world leader a man who also played a crucial role with the u.s. congress in protecting and fortifying u.s./taiwan relations at a time of changing diplomatic realities. president reagan seeks assurances of 1982 on top of the landmark taiwan relations act passed by the congress laid the foundation for a strong

and unique partnership over four decades during which we have maintained peace and promoted prosperity and welcomed the advent of taiwan's democracy however, it is no secret that today, the peace that we have maintained and the democracy which have worked hard to build are facing unprecedented challenges we once again find ourselves in the world where democracy is under threat and the urgency of keeping the beacon of freedom shining cannot be understated president reagan said it best, freedom is never more than one

generation away from extinction. it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation in a discussion with congressional leaders this morning, i reiterated taiwan's commitment to defending the peaceful status quo, where the people of taiwan, they continue to thrivein a free and open society. i also highlighted a belief which president reagan championed that to preserve peace, we must be strong i would like to add that we are stronger when we are together. for this i also express our deepest gratitude on behalf of the taiwanese people to members

of the congress on both sides of the aisle. a number of initiatives have held to make taiwan and our partnership stronger specifically initiatives in the realms of enhancing taiwan's self-defense capabilities fostering robust trade and economic ties between us and supporting taiwan's meaningful participation in the international community. we have shared interests in peace and prosperity across the indo-pacific taiwan strives to be a reliable partner to the world, a corner stone for stability in the region and a force for good. there is a saying that is one

who is virtuous will not stand alone. in our efforts to protect our way of life, taiwan is grateful to have the united states of america by our side. as we confront the unique challenges of our time, let us be mindful of the principles that have forged our great partnerships and bear in mind the lessons and enduring legacy. once again, thank you, speaker mccarthy, for your warmth and for your friendship. thank you to all our friends in congress for standing by taiwan. thank you. >> thank you >> president tsai, do you have a message for president xi >> okay.

everybody. that was notable, historic as well you may wonder why the president of taiwan was invoking president reagan so often. that is because the united states severed relationship officially, governmental to governmental relationships in 1979 after that era, and of course once president reagan became president, they were actually governed on something called the taiwan relations act it is something that president reagan championed. it is something that still exists to this day and it is that reason that it was invoked so many times, president reagan, and the efforts he conducted on behalf of the united states establishing a relationship with taiwan but, again, not officially recognizing taiwan as an independent country. so that explains that. let me bring in courtney kube. beijing was listening for the remarks there. after nancy pelosi went to visit as speaker august of last year, beijing began significant

military exercises, some called the moor games what do you think is going on there? what is the reaction likely to be >> it was an unprecedented level of war games, where they signalled a naval blockade, one of the worst case scenarios in taiwan that they could surround the island and cut them off from supplies, things like natural gas, cut off their telecommunications and that it wouldn't even require firing a shot that they could put the squeeze on taiwan. i think the big take away, especially here where i'm standing in taipei for the taiwanese people is exactly what their president said when she said that she was so happy to have the united states standing with taiwan. that image and that take away is very critical and that was the main thing that she was going there to show, the sense of unity between the u.s. and taiwan it comes amidst this backdrop of

increasingly fiery rhetoric out of china about the potential for an invasion in taiwan in the coming years, and amidst the u.s. and china relations at a real low point right now, incredible tensions that exist between those two countries. now, you mentioned the visit from then speaker nancy pelosi several months ago and the response from china. there is an expectation here that there will be some sort of a response from china to this visit, but the majority of people i'm speaking with don't think it's going to be on the level that we saw. of course we have to wait and see what happens in the coming days and potentially even weeks. but among the reasons they think it could be more muted than what we saw after the pelosi visit is because this meeting occurred in the u.s. and not in taiwan and some of the people we spoke with here today said that's a win-win-win, for taiwan, china and the u.s. speaker mccarthy gets his meeting with taiwan. the taiwanese president gets her

meeting with a senior member of the u.s. government, but china doesn't have them meeting here in the region in taiwan which would most likely invoke an even larger response. as you mentioned a really historic day seeing the two of them standing together in simi valley >> 100%. you have given us a good explanation of what taiwan may want to get out of this. with regard to what the u.s. wants to get out of this, i know, erin, you were interrupted, you had sound from speaker mccarthy, if you want to go back and sort of explain, and jake i'll ask you to interpret even more on that. >> speaker mccarthy taking the opportunity to highlight the cooperation between taiwan and the united states prior to this meeting. this is what he had to say take a listen. >> i'm optimistic that we will continue to find ways for the people of america and taiwan to work together to promote

economic freedom, democracy, peace, and stability in asia >> and this following what was a scathing statement from the chinese consulate general in los angeles yesterday calling out speaker mccarthy warning him not to go forward with this meeting saying it would be a provocation, calling it a political stunt, a violation of the one china policy something that u.s. officials have been pushing back on. they're trying to down play this visit. we heard from u.s. secretary of state antony blinken earlier today point to the six other occasions that the taiwanese president has transited through the united states, warning china not to try to leverage this meeting as a reason to escalate the situation further. >> okay. thank you for that perspective

there, erin. jake, i'm going to ask you to button this up and give us a sense not only of the issues being discussed today, but what does speaker mccarthy want to get out of this meeting, and does it include putting himself, placing himself on an international stage, dealing with international issues thus far in his career he's been mostly known for domestic issues. >> yeah, he's never really dealt with international issues. he's been the house minority leader, which has a mostly ceremonial role in international affairs but this is the easiest issue, literally the easiest issue for him to deal with, though it has huge consequences on the global stage because republicans and democrats agree that the u.s. needs to crack down on china, and he has created a number of committees to do so remember, this is his really only second or third meeting with the world leaders so it needed to be something, he

didn't want to bite off more than he could chew this is an issue that republicans, domestic or international where republicans and democrats agree, which is supporting taiwan in the face of chinese aggression he has an impressive group of bipartisan republicans and democrats out there, something quite frankly everyone would agree, we don't see that often in domestic or international affairs. so something he's going to revel in for some time. >> point well tank that said, he wanted to have this meeting in taiwan it did not happen. was that merely to placate or contain tensions from china and their reaction, that's why they put it in the u.s. >> i think he'll still go, to be honest with you. they're in the middle of an election, and that's a delicate time in taiwan i think he will go the end of this year or next calendar year. >> appreciate you all.

thank you so much. meantime, coming up, why former vice president mike pence says he won't appeal a federal judge's order that he testify in the investigation into trump's effort to overturn the 2020 election plus the 34 felony charges against donald trump, there are some surprises and unanswered questions. how prosecutors will go about trying to prove the former president guilty will rupert murdoch be forced to testify? we're back in 60 seconds 50% off?! that deal's so good we don't even need an eight-time all-star to tell you about it. wait what? get it before it's gone on the subway app! (vo) businesses nationwide are switching wto verizon business internet. (woman) it's a perfect fit for my small business. (vo) verizon has business internet solutions nationwide. (man) for our not-so-small business too. (vo) get internet that keeps your business ready for anything. from verizon. you need to deliver new apps fast

using the services you want in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow. introducing astepro allergy. now available without a prescription. and enterprise control, astepro is the first and only 24-hour steroid-free spray. while flonase takes hours, astepro starts working in 30 minutes. so you can [ spray, spray ] astepro and go. so we have this breaking news to report in one of the special counsel investigations into donald trump. former vice president mike pence will not fight a judge's order for him to testify before a grand jury weighing trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election thankfully we have right now joining me nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett. this just came down. we have reporting by you so what do you know?

>> just last monday, a federal judge in washington, d.c. had ordered pence to comply with special counsel jack smith's subpoena, and this all has to do with the issue of trump's efforts to cling to power, his efforts to subvert the 2020 election results, and in particular we understand jack smith is interested in trump's intent, his efforts and conversations with the former vice president now, trump had tried to block pence from testifying on executive privilege grounds. that did not work. the judge dismissed that pence had tried to say he shouldn't have to testify on a different legal argument it was a novel theory. the idea was that because he was presiding over the senate on january 6th, he should actually be immunized the way a member of congress would be, using the speech and debate clause that had never been tested before the judge on that piece said you may have an argument there the problem is because of trump's alleged illegality, what jack smith wants is the conversations leading up to

january 6th, and on that piece, the judge said you do have to testify, and it's interesting that pence is not fighting that piece of the ruling. an adviser to pence is saying we like the fact that the judge upheld of our version of a reading of the constitution. therefore he's not going to appeal this obviously opens the door to presence providing some critical insights about conversations only he and the former president were privy to. he described a lot of those in his book, but that's different than testifying before a grand jury trump can appeal i don't want people to think he's going to slip into the back door of the courthouse to do this. >> on what grounds will he appeal this? >> fight the executive privilege decision he hasn't actually appealed this one. he left that an open question. he has time to do that yesterday, he lost on this very issue again in the court of appeals in d.c. on a whole host of other senior raids, who he

tried to block from testifying the court of appeals said they have to testify. >> glad you were here for that good breaking news, thank you for that. another court appearance, a string of motions and maybe a trial. donald trump's legal trial in new york is just getting started after his historic arraignment yesterday. the former president pleading not guilty to 34 counts of falsifying business records. we're going to break down the steep bar prosecutors are facing when it comes to proving them, and what could happen with his next courthouse where he faces a special gag order, because he will not stop talking about alvin bragg, judge merchan, and their families joining me near mar-a-lago is nbc's dasha burns. the judge was careful bwhile declining to enforce the gag

order. nbc asked trump spokesperson about the attacks on bragg and the judge. what did he say? >> we were all wait ting to seet what extent he would take the judge's order, the judge's warning there seriously. last night's speech from the former president can best be characterized as his social media posts from the last several days come to life behind a podium at mar-a-lago, and yeah, he did in fact go after the manhattan d.a. he went after the judge and judge's family, other prosecutors and others involved in other cases and problems right now. we did reach out and here's the response we received from trump spokesperson steve which you think. he says in a statement, the constitution guarantees impartial process and free speech president trump is laying out all the facts. fa fact matter. what also matters is the legal system and how this might income

and create an up hill climb for trump's legal team >> let's talk about donald trump's schedule for the rest of the week is he looking to seize on momentum from yesterday's appearance >> as of now, the next time we expect to see him is next friday at an nra event followed by another appearance at an rnc event in tennessee right now, what we're seeing from the trump campaign is an attempt to very much capitalize on this moment i was just speaking with folks from the trump campaign who told me that he has now raised $12 billion since the news of the indictment became public they tell me a third of those donations are coming from first time donors. they also say they have got 25,000 folks signed up to volunteer with the campaign. they are touting all of that as an example of the political advantage he's gaining from this indictment while his lawyers are scrambling

and working to address and defend him in this case, the trump campaign is very much trying to use this moment to galvanize support around him, both within the republican party and the operative circles, as well as with the grass roots. >> if those numbers are accurate, that's impressive. joining me now, daniel horowitz, chair of mclaughlin stern litigation and white collar crime. let's get into this. each of these 34 counts against donald trump accuses him of having acted with intent to defraud and intent to commit another crime, and aid and conceal the commission thereof nowhere in this indictment does it talk about what exactly the other crime was. why was that not revealed? >> thanks for having me, alex, it's a good question the answer is it doesn't legally

have to be revealed, the district attorney in complex white collar cases in manhattan, this has been the practice for probably the last ten years or so they issued, the grand jury released the indictment, the district attorney releases a statement of facts, and that lays out the fact as well as the legal theories behind the black letter boilerplate law that we see in the indictment. so when the two are married, you can see what the theory is behind the indictment. one thing thing and the d.a. did talk about this yesterday, and perhaps it's a nuance of practicing criminal law in new york state is that under the law a prosecutor with a case like this doesn't have to specify or commit to a particular theory right up until the point that the jury is selected in this particular case, we know from reading the statement of facts and listening to the d.a.,

the theory behind the falsifying business records was that that was done with the intent to cover up or further their commission of two potential climbs one, violating new york state's criminal election laws this the run up to the presidential campaign, and potentially to violate new york state's tax laws because there was an intent perhaps to deduct the business expense of the playoff money that was made to the two individuals identified in the indictment. >> daniel, your first point, alvin bragg elaborated on that in his post courtroom appearance there. he said, look, this is something that violates new york criminal law. this may sound like an elementary ske, but the fact that we don't know about another crime that may have been committed, donald trump's team

knows exactly what they're up against at this point, right and if they do, might they put that information out there >> they might. i think in the run up to the indictment, there was an effort by now defendant trump and his legal team to sort of suggest that, look, i never had an affair with stormy daniels, and this is just blackmail, and so there's clearly an effort to try spin this. i think over the course of time, we've got motions coming up, that's next on the dockets that the defendants are going to file a motion, probably several motionings in the course of dealing with that, the d.a. is going to have to response, and i think we'll have to leern in the motion responses what the program t specifics are, even more than in the statement of facts. >> how strong is alvin bragg's

case, do you believe, and what do you think the largest hurdles are to find a conviction at the end? >> i think the case is strong. you don't just have michael cohen in this case you have david pecker, the long time publishers of the "national enquirer." and a long time friend of donald trump. he is foremost in this case because he is the one who helped to put together the architecture of the catch and kill scheme this is not a case that's just michael cohen and a handful of checks this is david pecker, michael cohen, tapes, witnesses that back them up i think it's a strong case this discussion about the legal theory, i understand the issue about federal preemption but we're talking about an attempt to violate a state crime.

this capacity in disemployeesing the precise theory is going to insulate and inoculate the indictment it gives the d.a. the ability argue the catch and scheme nascheme narrative. you have layers of evidence and layers of legal theories that make this a strong case. >> daniel horowitz, very good to speak to you we'll look forward to doing that again. what a record breaking wisconsin supreme court election win means in one of the country's most important political battle ground states. could donald trump's indictment hurt the republican's tenuous grip on the house? lactaid is 100% real milk, just without the lactose. tastes great in our iced coffees too. which makes waking up at 5 a.m. to milk the cows a little easier. (moo) mabel says for you, it's more like 5:15. man: mom, really? (vo) businesses nationwide are switching to verizon business internet. it's more like 5:15. (woman) it's a perfect fit for my small business.

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what has been hailed as quote the most consequential election of the year has wrapped up the wisconsin supreme court will have a liberal majority for the first time in 15 years county circuit court judge januajane protasiewicz defeated, the court is expected to determine heavy issues, future of abortion rights, election laws, voting rights in the state. joining me now at the big board, nbc news national political correspondent steve kornacki so talk about this race, how it played out 11 point win, was that a

sur surprise was that expected? >> it was a bit of a surprise because we're used to wisconsin elections being razor thin in the preliminary round when a bunch of candidates ran, there was an advantage there these are officially partisan elections but the democratic aligned candidates had been in the mid-50s. the republican-aligned candidates were in the mid-40s we knew daniel kelly needed to make up ground, the conservative candidate in the race. in 2024, we're going to be spending a lot of time talking about wisconsin as a swing state. it's hard to see a republican winning the white house in 2024 without carrying wisconsin there are troubling trends for republicans you see on the map last night w.o.w. counties, washington, waukesha, ozaukee. tra dugsally they have been huge sour -- traditionally they have been

huge sources for republicans, in the age of trump, moving away from republicans take a look. you can see it here. waukesha county, the biggest of the w.o.w. counties, you see kelly did win by 16 points, but republicans are supposed to be winning by bigger margins. donald trump won by more than 20 in 2020. he won by 27 points in 2016, and if you went back to 2012, mitt romney doubled up barack obama in this gigantic suburban county down to 16 points. that's the ground republicans are losing in the milwaukee suburbs, seeing them lose ground like that nationally one thing republicans have been able to do in wisconsin to sort of counter that, they have driven up the vote in more blue collar areas rural areas, they have done better in recent elections to balance things out that's the other area where they ran ento into trouble last nigh. you can see it in the three counties the w.o.w. counties near green

bay, they've got the b.o.w. counties brown county, that's where green bay is protasiewicz wining here that's a flip. remember, donald trump won this county he won it by 7 points over joe biden in 2020. the democratic-aligned candidate carried it last night. this is where appleton is. again, trump won it by 10. the democratic aligned candidates carried it last night, and the winnebago county, trump carried it protasiewicz, the democratic-aligned candidate carried it last night. talk about whether this is abortion, reaction to trump's lingering presence on the stage, the democratic effort against kelly in this race, really raised both of those issues here, seems to have generated a reaction in those suburbs, in core democratic areas, and also in the swing areas of the state, and what it adds up to, you know, for democrats there, as an impressive statewide victory, and a troubling sign for republicans heading into the presidential election year next

year >> steve kornacki, thank you for that joining me now is national affairs correspondent at the nation, john nichols, how big is this win for protasiewicz? >> it's hugely significant beyond vote totals, beyond what steve was just talking about, you have the reality that control of the state supreme court has flipped. this was a 4-3 conservative court that for more than a dozen years had sustained the agendas of former republican governor scott walker and the current republican-controlled legislature. it is no longer that it will now going forward be a 4-3 liberal court. much closer in values to liberal democratic governor tony evers that tips the balance on all sorts of legal battles on issues like abortion rights, labor rights, and of course gerrymandering wisconsin has some of the most gerrymandered maps in the country. if there are challenges to those

maps now, there's a real chance that this court could upend those maps, and redraw them to create far more competitive districts, including potentially a couple of congressional districts that democrats could pick up. >> john, do you think this i guess portrays head winds leaning in the direction of wisconsin heading blue i mean, we have to remind folks what this state is all about this is the third term they have elected scandal plagued ron johnson back to the senate it sent senator joe mccarthy back in the day. it's been fairly reliably a red state. does this now mean it might go blue >> i think the best way to understand wisconsin is that it is the truest battleground state in the united states it is the most closely divided state of the last six presidential elections, imagine this four of them were decided by under 25,000 votes so you have no state in the

country, especially a state that is as consequential as wisconsin where you have such close elections. what is clear now is the democrats have been on a winning streak they won the governorship in 2018 issue reelected in 2022 a lot of wins in state wise races and since 2018, this is now the third major state supreme court race they have won. they literally have and this is officially a nonpartisan race, clearly the one where the democratic candidate prevailed, they have now taken control of the executive branch with governor evers and they also have control of the judicial branch or at least progressives do that's a huge change and i think if i was joe biden looking at this from washington i would be very pleased with the patterns playing out. >> hard to think of it being nonpartisan given the millions of dollars spent on this race. john nichols, we'll be talking

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2024 trial, donald trump's legal battle in new york could collide with his campaign schedule his next court date in manhattan is set for december 4th. that's two months before the republican primary season kicks off in iowa. while donald trump has used his criminal indictment as campaign fodder, gop lawmakers in congress are not so sure it's a boon punch bowl news is reporting quote nervousness among house republicans about what the trump indictment means for their razor thin majority and how much of the next cycle they could be forced to spend talking about it joining me now is nbc capitol hill correspondent allie vitally. how tricky is this for house republicans. they have already been burned as you know when it comes to overly focusing on biden probes zeroing in on trump and bragg, is that a winning approach for them. >> whether it's zeroing in on trump or bragg or trump and someone else, fulton county, the department of justice in d.c. ends up doing, there are other

probes that could potentially become the central focus in addition to what's happening in manhattan, and what that means is that republicans are really at the whims of these courts, and then also they're at the whim of the former president, and for people who are trying to forge ahead with their own plans to keep the house majority and potentially grow those numbers, that becomes really tricky when you start looking at some of the places that actually make up the republican majority here in congress in the first place. they've got swing districts that went towards biden in 2020 that could be difficult for these republicans to hold on in if they're not tried and true, deep red trump country. that is something that clearly does have people concerned, especially when you look at the way that republicans are trying to use their majority right now, alex consider that they are trying to push forward on things like energy, on things like education, and then also simultaneously, they're using their majority to go after alvin bragg and try to get him in front of these key committees to testify about the trump indictment it's a split focus and trump

continues to dominate. that's not good for anyone who has a message that's anywhere outside of trump. >> yeah, you make a very good point. could be trump and bragg or trump and somebody else. we're going to wait and see on all of that with your help joining me is the former chairman of the republican national committee and msnbc political analyst in very high esteem, michael steele michael, let's take a look at what this will look like when this all plays out, right? you have trump trying to prove his innocence in new york, at the same time trying to campaign in iowa and new hampshire, the carolinas in february, how does this play out? how do you even try to maneuver something like this? i know all of this is unprecedented, but give it a shot >> look, ali just kind of put the context in place for us. it is a split screen, and the screen where trump is trump. he's going to do whatever trump does, you know, if it's swinging from the branches today, he'll swing from the branches today.

if it's, you know, hunkering down in the bunker at mar-a-lago tomorrow, he'll do that. so he's going to do his own thing. the problem is how does the party respond to that. so all of these other issues that may come up, whether it's georgia or the january 6th process, all of these other litigation and legal issues he has, he'll just deal with them he'll just get that victim hood going on, and it will rally the base around him and tighten the strength that he has for the rest of the republican party, what do they do there is no escape from this conversation for them. you know, trump goes away tomorrow, where does marjorie taylor greene go you think she just shuts up an you think she just shuts up and says i'm not saying anything any more she rallied to new york for donald trump so if party is trying to force him out and what are they going to do with her and her ilk and not only that, the problem

becomes, when you look at the 24 cycle, the candidates that are already positioning themselves to be on the ballot next year, there is no escape from this so the party could sit there and ring their hands, but this is the devil that you unleashed the monster you created. now you're going to have to deal in this political field with it and it is not going to be pretty. >> i'm curious of a timing i know the d.a. is pushing for january and the trump team said we want to push this back to later spring does it make a difference, given the long, the extended primary season is there a better time for either side? i guess we don't worry about politically for the d.a. but for donald trump, is there a better time for this trial >> the best time for donald trump is any time we're talking about him. so for him, it doesn't really matter, what that clock is the d.a. and the politics will

flow with him. now, look, the reality of it is, when these other potential indictments drop, if they drop, yeah, that is going to be another big news cycle because one after the other is more serious than the other but trump is so far shown the ability to get a little bit out in front of the narrative, as he did with this indictment by saying i'm going to get arrested on tuesday, two weeks, three weeks before he got arrested he will likely do the same, taking information he gets from the d.a.s in georgia or from jack smith and then using that as much to his advantage again, the party is going to be in a reflexive kind of defensive posture trying to catch up to those narratives that are being pushed by both the d.a. and donald trump so the timeline will be whatever trump and the d.a. makes it and for the party politically, there

is no good time on that timeline. >> okay. point well taken as always michael steele, many thanks. up next, will the murdaugh's testify in the dominion news trial. we'll have that right after this break. by treating my skin and joints. along with significantly clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after two starter doses. skyrizi attaches to and reduces a source of excess inflammation that can lead to skin and joint symptoms. with skyrizi, 90% clearer skin and less joint pain is possible. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. with skyrizi, there's nothing like the feeling of improving my skin and joints...

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ryan and another couple of other executives from fox to testify, to cross state lines and to go to wilmington and sit in the courtroom and testify in front of the jury. >> so that is it there is no more appealing they will have to testify. >> this is a big deal. the order has not come through exactly because they have to file trial subpoenas to force the issue. but he made it clear that he's done the research and they're going to have to testify. >> so in other words, the issue is whether or not they would cross state lines. there was an absurd excuse for rupert murdoch because he was recently engaged and it is difficult for him and i know that his engagement just ended, i'm sorry, i guess love died and you think about that and i was like why would that be a hindrance? not crossing state lines was that a detail they were trying to use? >> he whats talking about there is other executives who said i can't compel them to show up because of where they are in the organizational structure of these fox companies at delaware law and the precedent isn't

there, but for the dominion case it is important to get the murdochs because that you how dominion believes that you could get fox corporation. so fox news very involved in the publication of the alleged defamation but fox corporation, the tie is in the murdochs in their intimate handling of the election coverage and the post election period, that is where the case sort of rests on whether or not fox corporation is involved in this. >> and is that going to be the only sticking point? i mean, this is supposed to start, what, april 17 so that is just a couple of weeks away. >> yeah. >> is there anything else that could pull this off. >> the judge admonished both sides, i've never had to rule on so many tiny little things where you sit on the organizational structure most of the time lawyers could tell me just as a fact how this works. there is a whole other set of issues decided in a pretrial conference hearing next week, that starts on tuesday but until we get into the courtroom, i think there is a bunch of sticky issues. >> which keeps you busy and

we're glad for that because it is so much drama we're following closely with your help. thank you jane tim. this is it for me today, "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪ hi there, everyone it is 4:00 in new york and we have breaking news this afternoon. in the form of an announcement from former vice president mike pence regarding what is arguably the most consequential investigation in the history of doj. it is an announcement that is only going to add to the disgraced and newly indictments ex-president's growing file of woes mike pence will not appeal a judge's ruling compelling him to testify before the federal grand jury investigating january 6 washington post notes this, quote, pence's decision to drop the appeal means he will likely testify