we're glad for that because it is so much drama we're following closely with your help. thank you jane tim. this is it for me today, "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪ hi there, everyone it is 4:00 in new york and we have breaking news this afternoon. in the form of an announcement from former vice president mike pence regarding what is arguably the most consequential investigation in the history of doj. it is an announcement that is only going to add to the disgraced and newly indictments ex-president's growing file of woes mike pence will not appeal a judge's ruling compelling him to testify before the federal grand jury investigating january 6 washington post notes this, quote, pence's decision to drop the appeal means he will likely testify under oath about trump's

attempts to pressure him and he could be a key witness trump and his team could still appeal the ruling. but they have lost similar previous cases a date for pence's testimony is not settled, though it is likely to be later this month according to an adviser. now the ruling by judge james boseberg ordering pence to testify said that while pence was excused from providing details regarding hisrole as president of the senate on january 6, 2021, he's not excused from testifying about conversations related to alleged illegality on donald trump's part that means that special counsel jack smith could gain firsthand knowledge, a firsthand account of the one-on-one conversations that mike pence and donald trump had that day special counsel jack smith on the verge of access to a central witness in the insurrection is where we start today "new york times" reporter glenn flush is back with us and joining us msnbc legal analyst paul butler.

he's a former federal prosecutor, now a law professor at georgetown university so, glenn, we've been focused on a couple of other things the last few days. but this is more evidence. i guess of two things. one, that jack smith is a heat seeking missile, pursuing the facts and investigation under his purview, and number two, trump and his interests do not prevail very often in the court battles that jack smith engages them in. >> well it really is just a sharp reminder, a day after people have been criticizing even people who are critics of former president trump has been criticizing alvin bragg for what some call a weak indictment. you don't get any closer to finding out what occurred in the run-up to january 6 and talking to mr. trump's vice president who he was pressuring. i mean, we knew this was coming for a while.

after pence's legal team and political team were spinning the last determination as a legal victory, but it still really, you just sometimes have to pinch yourself and consider how remarkable this situation is the vice president of the united states has been been compelled by a judge to testify in an investigation into the former president of the united states it is a heck of a sort of a heck of a book end to what happened yesterday. >> and you're colleague charlie savage has a story about how alvin brag's case is a lot stronger than some critics and pundits thought it might be. so there is a lot of analysis out there. glenn, i want to play for you some of what we know about, not from jack smith but from the congressional investigation into these events these are some of the most senior aides and advisers to mike pence folks like mark short, his

former chief of staff and greg jacob, his former counsel who testified before the congressional probe. >> was it your impression that the vice president had directly conveyed his position on these issues to the president, not just to the world, through a dear colleague letter, but directly to president trump? >> many times. >> and he had been consistent in conveying his position to the president? >> very consistent. >> i have to be clear with mr. meadows about you and the vice president having a different view about his authority on january 6. >> i believe i had >> did mr. pence agree with you or say yeah, that makes sense or okay >> i believe that -- that mark did agree. >> during that meeting, on the 4th, i think i raised the problem that both of mr. eastman's proposals would violate several provisions of

the electoral counts act mr. eastman acknowledged that was the case that even what he viewed as the more politically palatable option would violate several provisions. >> it seems, glenn, that we could get distracted by the what of this, right mike pence, who was the target to be the victim of the violence, hang mike pence was as close to a mission statement as trump supporters had that day. but also, i guess, he opens the flood gates to trump 's intent because he was on the receiving end of private conversations that people have testified about but we haven't heard, at least publicly from anyone who was on the other end of trump's calls >> oh, absolutely. i mean, it is -- when you heard jacob and short speak specifically to the repetition of their statements to meadows,

and presumably the vice president's statement that he recounted in his own memoir to the president of the united states, it is clear that trump wants -- this was a one-way street and he only wanted one particular answer from the entire team. and it was really interesting, my paper did an interview with tim heavy, who you know was the -- sort of the head of the investigation of the house committee. and he said that the two witnesses that he most wanted to go back and get more information from were jacob and short. so, it is clear to me that the information that pence has is of cardinal importance, cardinal importance to jack smith and i would just point out the name we keep hearing over and over in all of these conversations is pmark meadows. >> what is so interesting. we're trying at this very moment, i'll pull the curtain

bark on our work we're trying to wringle tim about those comments and that was during the questioning in those clips i just played. let me show you a little bit more of what greg jacob, that was pence's former counsel, had to say about what i think if you had one question for mike pence, paul butler, it would be why didn't you get in the car? here is what greg jacobs had to say about that. >> the head of his secret service detail, tim, had said, assure you we're not going to drive out the building without your permission and the vice president said something to the effect of, tim, i know you, i trust you, but you're not the one behind the wheel and the vice president did not want to take any chance that the world would see the vice president of the united states fleeing the united states capitol. he was determined that we would complete the work that we had

set out to do that day that it was his constitutional duty to see through and that the rioters who had breached the capitol would not have the satisfaction of disrupting the proceedings beyond the day on which they were supposed to be completed. >> this is one of the biggest, i think, sort of bombshell pieces of testimony we've heard it in some great journalism in "the washington post," that pence couldn't get in the car because he didn't trust the person driving the car. he didn't feel he had any agency where he would be taken. i've traveled with the president and after 9/11 in foreign country, i never heard of a principal, a protectee having a concern like that. tell me what you think jack smith wants to know from mike pence. >> i dent think jack smith is going to get a day of sleep

before he hauls mike pence in. nicolle, he will want to know more about this conversation on january 5th, that mark short called the secret service to say that he was worried that the president of the united states was going to turn on the vice president of the united states and that there was a security risk why did pence have those concerns, did he communicate them directly to then president trump and how did trump respond? it is key to both the factual investigation of what happened on january 6, to prevent this kind of breakdown from ever happening again and it is key for the criminal investigation one reason for that, nicolle, is that there are other people who probably know more, mark meadows is exhibit 1 there but when he gets hauled into the grand jury, he almost certainly will take the fifth. because he has criminal

exposure so he will probably never testify. pence, his testimony is extraordinarily important. >> let me show you one other thing that we know from glenn's coverage and our analysis and watching the public hearings, that the congressional committee produced and put on last summer. the committee was able to get around the edges of this phone call between pence and trump on the morning of trump uses the p-word, based on testimony and news accounts and here is how close the congressional committee without talking to pence or trump who were the two parties on the call, here is how close they got to understanding what went down on that call >> when i entered the office, the second time, he was on the telephone with who i later found out to be was the vice president. >> you could hear the vice president or only hear the president's end?

>> only hear the president's end. >> and at some point is it started off as a calmer tone and then became heated. >> the conversation was -- was pretty heated. >> did you hear any part of the phone call, even if just the end that the president was speaking from >> i did, yes. >> all right and what did you hear? >> so i was dropping off the note, i -- my memory, i remember hearding the word wimp he called him a wimp he said you're a wimp that is the word that i remember. >> it is a different tone that he's taken with the vice president before. >> there is additional testimony, his aide testifies to how disturbed she was by the things that her father said. the word wasn't wimp but the bottom line, and i think to glenn's earlier point, of the witness that's really unlocked precisely what trump's intentions and concrete plans and his role in creating them and crafting them and putting into motion, it is mark meadows

and mike pence and today as we gather here at 4:11, mike pence has no more objections to telling his full and complete story before a grand jury. >> he could have appealed. but that would have just delayed t the inevitable the supreme court would have shot down his claim of executive privilege. he also claims speech or debate privilege and i think that might enter some of the justices but ultimately not enough to block his grand jury testimony so, nicolle, this was probably as much a political calculation as a legal one pence may just want to spill it, to get it over with as far in advance of the campaign as possible and donald trump, he might be doing his own political math and doing it differently than pence. yesterday trump sure didn't look

anxious to get to trial in manhattan any time quickly and we should note that trump could try to intervene to block pence's testimony before the d.c. grand jury. >> let me bring into the conversation someone glenn has already invoked or heard from on the tape of some of the interviews that i've played already. former lead investigator for the january 6 select committee tim halfy is our guest we played some of your questioning of greg jacob and some of the testimony of others about pence's experience that day. we saw with our own eyes how he and his family were evacuated and glenn reported that in an interview with "the new york times" you said if you had more time with a group of aides, it would be these people around pence and i know you and i have talked about how the people that you wished that the committee had gained access to include mark meadows and mike pence. so your first reaction to this news breaking today that pence will not appeal the federal judge's ruling that he must

testify about what may be illegality on trump's part that day. >> yeah, i think it is really important, nicolle we obviously wanted very much to get this direct account of the vice president we got very close. by getting his chief of staff and his chief counsel, his security adviser, general kellogg all to share with us what happened with vice president pence. but none of them were able to share with us direct communications between the vice president and the president. you and i, nicolle, have talked about this at length jack smith is laser focused on president trump 's intent and vice president's direct conversations with him about his position i don't have authority to do what you are suggesting publicly what i could do and accept these trump electors in states that the popular vote said that you lost or send it back to the states. he told his staff -- his staff

told us repeatedly, he told the president that did he not have that authority but he's now going to have to testify directly about those communications, that is direct evidence, not circumstantial and it will matter for the special counsel's evidentiary showing of the president's intent. >> how much does jack smith get into the timeline. what was public facing was trump attacking pence on i believe the night of january 2nd or 3rd in georgia from the stage of the rallies he was doing for the republican runoff candidates there. we know that there were meetings in the oval office, with eastman on the 4th and 5th and we know pence was seeking counsel from judge ludig and dan quayle and then we know about the infamous call you could take me through the turning points in that timeline and tell me where you think jack smith drills down. >> i think jack smith starts with the election. or even before the election. this is a vice president of the united states.

so the extent this multi-part plot to interfere with the joint session began even before the election, with planting the seeds of a baseless argument of voter fraud, then jack smith will want to know what vice president pence knew about that. conversations that he had with the president about the election results. conversations that he had with the president about other parts of the plan. right. pressure on him is one part of plan that will be the main focus of the questions. but to the extent that the vice president is aware of other parts of the plan, the fake electors, the potential personnel change at the department of justice, all of that and then they have conversations after the fact there is a very frigid relationship between these two men that i think jared kushner and ivanka helped to sort of broker and there is a meeting between them, i think it is on the 11th or 12th of january, so i think jack smith is going to

want to know what the president said about what he did or didn't do on january 6 and why and any sort of presidential statements that would bear upon intent that have occurred in the days and months since january 6 all of that, so this is not just did you make a decision about your authority, did you convey it to the president. that is the core of it but i think you could zoom out prior to that and after that and all of that will be permissible questioning from the special counsel. >> while the committee drew the time library out to july and gave us a piece of evidence that was fascinating, an email from allen fitman a activist you raise an interesting point about pence as a window or witness into premeditation way before the election is ever had. tell me how fertile that ground is and how you would have pursued that if you had pence in front of you >> it is hard to say how fertile it is. there were concerns about possible election fraud and in

advance. i think the defense here, the rebuttal narrative will be those were not part of a plot to lay a foundation for challenging the results. but rather genuine concerns about the prospect of fraud. fraud did not occur, to any significant degree did not occur and the president was told that repeatedly so jack smith will want to go back to the pre-existing statements and focus on the conversations that the vice president may have had with the president and other conversations that he had about the election results he was on the ballot too he had a very personal interest in the results so he had his own counsel about what happened. so to the extent that the vice president said i knew that he with lost and i was -- it was explained to me why we lost, we presented evidence nicolle, that they just didn't say there was fraud, but they lost because you didn't do as well in the outer suburban areas in the key states and michigan and pennsylvania.

you underperformed vis-a-vis 2016 it was this, the explanation of the loss so they'll want to develop all of this with vice president pence. and if he reached a rational conclusion that the election was not stolen but was actually lost, and conveyed that to president trump, that is important evidence unscoring president trump 's intent to disrupt the joint session. >> john eastman is the dividing line between pence and trump it seems that even trump was aware that the plot was illegal and unconstitutional we don't know that for sure but there was evidence that was developed that suggest that. we know, though, through pence's aides, that pence concluded that the eastman plot was illegal can i play some of their public statements and ask you about the one in questioning about what was going on behind the scenes >> and i hope mike pence comes through for us

i have to tell you i hope that our great vice president, our great vice president comes through for us he's a great guy of course, if he doesn't come through, i won't like him quite as much. >> i hope mike is going to do the right thing. i hope so. i hope so. because if mike pence does right thing, we win the election and we're going to have to fight much harder and mike pence is going to have to come through for us and if he doesn't, that will be a sad day for our country. >> and all we are demanding of vice president pence is this afternoon at 1:00, he let the legislatures of the state look into this so we get to the bottom of it and the american people know whether we have control of the direction of our government or not. >> so, i believe the committee presented evidence publicly that both men knew that the eastman plot was illegal before the public statements were made.

how damaging is pence to both of their legal futures? >> pence is really damaging, nicolle, because before any of those clips that you just played, he told the president, i've looked at this, i've consulted with experts, i don't have the authority and i will not and cannot do what you are suggesting i do by accepting these electors or sending it back to the states. nonetheless, the public pressure, right, the last prong of the multi-part prong to prevent the transfer of power and disrupt the joint session is the activation of the mob. the president is getting people there at the ellipse, exercised by giving them this hope somehow that the vice president is going to do something that he has repeatedly told the president directly and that is what the vice president presumably will testify, that he could not do. nonetheless, the president continues that rhetoric saying

mike pence does this, then we'll all be happy they're going to ask mike pence about a meeting in the oval office between john eastman, trump and vice president pence pat cipollone testifying that he was coming to that meeting and told not to come and he wouldn't share with us why. because he invoked executive privilege. but this is a really important moment because he was really awkwardly sort of swarming when we asked him why didn't you attend the meeting. he didn't attend the meeting because he didn't agree. he disagreed he was the truth teller in the room who would say that doesn't work, mr. eastman or mr. president. the vice president does not have that authority so that meeting and i think that was on the 3rd of january, several days before the speech on the ellipse, asking mike pence to describe that conversation and mike pence should have to describe exactly what he said and what eastman said and the president said. and that is the president's own participation in conversations about that bogus eastman theory.

>> and then somewhere between that meeting that trump participates in, that pence is in the room for, that he will certainly be asked about, his staff develops evidence of the security situation and the propensity for violence among the trump supporters and hi chief of staff called in the secret service and they know exactly what is going to happen. the committee also developed evidence that robert o'brien, the national security adviser, knew by the 5th that there would be, quote, violence on the hill on the 6th how much is pence a fact witness on the knowledge ahead of time of the violence directed at him and directed at the men and women, including law enforcement at the u.s. capitol? >> yeah, i think that is a good question because this special counsel in figuring out what the president intended, is going to want to develop evidence about how much advanced warning the prospect of violence there was

you're right, we developed testimony from mark short that he alerted the secret service of his concerns about the vice president's safety, i think that was on the day before january 6, on january 5th if vice president pence himself had similar concerns and was presented with intelligence about the prospect of violence the same intelligence that robert o'brien saw and the mark short saw and the fbi gathered, that is hard for the president to argue that when he made thathat incendiary speech, he had no idea this could be a violent attack oe capitol. violence form his words and hi conduct. you have to see those words and that conduct in the context of mindful awareness of the prospect of violence and pence, if he has this information, that is directly relevant. >> so i'm dying to ask you about the car and the underground parking lot where he stays and why he doesn't get in the car and what he knows and the evidence you've developed from mr. kellogg and others

i have to sneak in a break but i want to pursue that on the other side if everyone could stick around longer. there are other things that we're going to get to. it is been described as the most important election of the year democrats won huge we'll talk about the wisconsin supreme court race and the major consequences for our democracy and for abortion health care in america. later in the program, on the same night, fox news host rose up to defend donald j. trump in the 34 criminal charges that were filed against him, their employer has offered them up as prime time spots as witnesses in the upcoming billion dollar defamation lawsuit against them. they'll appear live in a delaware courtroom all of those and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today.

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i want to be clear, i'm going to fight the biden doj subpoena to appear before the grand jury, because i think it is unprecedent and it is unconstitutional. >> until it is not we are joined by glenn flush from "the new york times" and because this news broke just about an hour ago. pence won't appeal ruling that compels his grand jury testimony on january 6 tim, i want to ask you, do you know the answer to this? if you simply have pence before a grand jury or a jury ultimately, why didn't he get in the car? what did he know about where they wanted to take him and why they didn't want him at the capitol? >> oh, i could tell you what mark short told us

mark was with him all day. and he told us that mike pence didn't want the world to see the image of the vice president fleeing the capitol in the midst of a violent attack. that to him he was mindful of the oppression that would send the democracy was fragile and could be interrupted and he did not want that image. so he literally sat with his legs outside of the vehicle. so he sort of half in, and half out of the car there is the photograph right there. exactly. and mark short testified that this was purposeful, that he knew that the secret service agents who he trusted very much could, for his safety, whisk him away, as a matter of fact there was a lot of secret service text messages which we found -- excuse me teams messages that suggested their intention was to do just that, was to remove him from the billing and he refused to get fully in the car to

prevent that from happening. obviously something that the special counsel will want to develop. why weren't you in the car and what was going on during the riot and who did you talk to and what information did you receive? a realtime minute to minute account will be important for the special counsel to develop. >> what else -- you think like jack smith you pursued the same body of evident that jack smith is now up with and paul butler said he probably won't sleep between this announcement today and the opportunity to actually interview mr. pence. what other questions do you think he's developing for the former vice president? >> yeah, look, i think it goes back to not just what happened, but the predicates for what happened hard to understate the closeness between mike pence and the president through the four years. hard to understate the

synchronicity of them during the campaign so all of the predicate issues, the election, stop the steal narrative, he was going to want to develop mike pence's awareness of all of that thinking of what -- another question i would want to ask him about, nicolle, is what we called the big ripoff or the big fraud. so immediately after the campaign ends, and the networks declare president-elect biden the victor, they keep raising money. they just shift it from the trump for president campaign to the save america pact as the recipient. and they raised almost $250 million from some of the very same people that had given money during the came between what the election happened and inauguration day so mike pence's -- there is some evident that mike pence was not participating in that or didn't think that was a good idea so his knowledge of the fundraising strategy, his efforts to distance himself from it, he also, we don't believe,

ever used the word stop the steal in any public statements which would suggest a different understanding and so all of the important contextual things beyond the violence and the attack, the big fraud, the stop the steal, all of that, has a potential for mike pence to be a really important witness for jack smith >> i mean, glenn, i want to bring you back in on this. i think what tim just said is that mike pence didn't think the election had been stolen mike pence is an important witness in terms of where you want to unearth, where joe biden was the legitimate lawful president-elect and trump is going to use the military to steal voting machines an rudy giuliani to explain it to the country and ron johnson and other yahoos in the congress to rig the certification. >> of course mike pence didn't

think the election was stolen because the election wasn't stolen and i think, you know, i have to harken back to the prehistoric mike pence when this wife warned him not to get involve and he cheese to do so any way. so to some extent, every time that i look at those images, i think, you know, he may have -- want to reconsider the advice that she gave him at that point in time. but, look, i think what tim said is really -- i think fundamental and in keeping with what i've heard from my sources. a part of this is about pence establishing a pat cipollone and establishing early on, people who knew what was going on, let the president and bill barr and let the president know there was no merit to this argument that the election was stolen. that they had done -- in his case that he had done an investigation internally and

discovered there wasn't this venezuela plot with the voting machines for instance. so part of this is about pence being a person who could establish in a very real way that the president had access to information -- information that should have led him to conclude that he was pursuing a path that was not only unlawful but completely wrong pence serves a lot of different roles. and just in general, having been around pence's folks for years and years and years, you know, they, throughout the course of this presidency, were questioning things that trump was doing. i took a spin through the former vice president's memoirs and things were obviously being put very diplomatically. but, you know, it was very, very clear in realtime that pence's staff starting from the very early days of the administration were not on board with what a lot of what trump was up to. >> can begs a whole other host

of questions that we need another 35 minutes to get through. glenn and paul and tim, who all jumped when this news broke to help us understand it and talk it through thank you so much for starting us off today we're really grateful. up next for us, you may never have heard of her before but a win last night for wisconsin supreme court seat could have huge consequences for the entire nation. we'll tell you about that contest and what it means for abortion rights and democracy next so it's decided, we'll park even deeper into parking spaces so people think they're open. surprise. [ laughs ] [ horn honks, muffled talking ] -can't hear you, jerry. -sorry. uh, yeah, can we get a system where when someone's bike is in the shop, then we could borrow someone else's? -no! -no! or you can get a quote with america's number-one motorcycle insurer and maybe save some money while you're at it. all in favor of that. [ horn honking ] there's a lot of buttons and knobs in here.

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and you'd be for given for not realize that all that was going on in a small courtroom in new york city it was also election day. the biggest contest in 2023 took place in wisconsin yesterday a race for a seat on the state supreme court resulting in a major win for progressives, a 10-point victory giving liberals the first majority on the highest court in 15 years. and it could send a signal to red states all across america. janet protasiewicz, a judge on the milwaukee county circuit court defeated conservative dan kelly, a former state supreme court justice. with her win, the supreme court in wisconsin could reverse that state's abortion ban which was one of the central pillars of his candidacy here she was last night addressing that. >> wisconsin voters have made their voices heard

they've chosen to reject partisan extremism in this state. too many have tried to overturn the will of the people today's results show that wisconsinites believe in democracy and the democratic process. >> joining our coverage, ses he'll richards, former president of planned parenthood and former congress woman and now an msnbc contributor, donna edwards is also here. the three of us don't get to gather for many conversations about abortion health care with hugely positive reassuring good news about the country, about the future of abortion rights, about the power of issue, but today we get to do just that i start with you, cecilia? >> there is no way to overstate what a big night it was. as you said, this is most important race perhaps of this

year certainly in 2023 so far and the turnout was amazing. it reminded me actually kind of the kansas referendum when it broke all kinds of records we will students standing in line to vote outside of the university of madison and eau claire we beat turnout in 2020 during a presidential primary i mean, people wanted to go vote and it was clear that this election was about democracy and it was about the fact that an 1849 abortion ban is in effect right now in the state of wisconsin and this was the race that could make the difference so, it is a very good day to celebrate and i think it is a good day to acknowledge how both the republican extremism turns off their voters, but it also energizes those that want to go to the poll. >> and i want to read more about

the 1840 law because i want to bring it back to what is happening to women in these states right now i don't want to skim over. i focus a lot on how the republican party has been taken over by such extremists even by the republican party's former standards. and i don't spend enough attention on what that means more the democratic party but the silent middle that we don't know a ton about except on nights like last night, election nights it is not just animating and unifying it is changing behaviors it is changing voting patterns it is perhaps the biggest tet onic plate shift in recent times. just talk about the information we're still gathering about how powerful this issue is, as something that makes people go vote >> well, we obviously saw -- i mean, this is in a way, it is just more of the same. of what we saw last year in the

midterm elections. where record breaking turnout, get getting folks -- well young people are voting now all over the place because they know what is at stake. it is their future and i think that we saw certainly the midterms that a lot of people who were nonvoters, because so many people don't turn out in these special elections, a supreme court race that is really hard to get people to turn out and yet folks obviously were highly motivated i think it is -- and it is a sign again it is not just motivating to the democratic base. this is engaging independent voters, there is no more swing state than the state of wisconsin. and the fact that this judge won by more than 10 points is, i think, just very telling about where the middle of the country is >> and donna, she ran on abortion rights. this is from politico reporting on this case wisconsin has an 1840 laws on

books that bans abortions in nearly all instances josh kaul has challenged the court that will land in front of the state supreme court. but in the interim, abortion providers have stopped performing the procedure in the st state. on the trail, protasiewicz has said, my personal value is that a woman has a right to choose. stressing that sheer merely speaking about his values and not prejudging any particular court case talk about what you see in last night's big, roesounding win fo her? >> well, first of all, i think the real story here is one that, since you talked about it, and it is about young people that young people on every college campus, all across this state, turned out to vote in record numbers more than -- a higher turnout than in 2022, which was already a high turnout

more votes passed for and i'm not going to botch her name, i'll say judge janet, then were cost for tony evers and mandela barns for senate >> wow. >> so young people felt the power of this -- of their vote and they voted -- she campaigned on abortion rights and on democracy and i think the combination of these issues not only motivated young people but motivated all of the independent and suburban women voters who are completely turned off by the republican, the formerly endorsed trump republican who was running in the race and voters saw there that. so i could see that carrying through in the 2024 election cycle. it is a very powerful and motivating electorate out there. >> yeah, and the republicans have gotten them selves on the wrong side of many voters

including many on abortion and also on democracy which we know from elections and polls is something that is tangible to people they understand it let me read from nbc reporting on that. the state supreme court is likely to hear various challenges to existing election laws as well as cases that might relate to recounts, absentee ballots and other facets of election administration. there could have material impacts on the outcomes of close elections and the perpetual battleground state including the 2024 presidential election for example, in a 4-3 decision last year the supreme court deemed all ballot drop boxes outside of election clerk's offices illegal. a setback for democrats who had advocated to preserve one of the more lenient rules about the boxes that arose during the coronavirus pandemic two years earlier, the court in another 4-3 vote upheld the 2020 election results in the state. we tried, donna, to shine a light on this show, with mark and folks like both of you, on

the war on democracy that republicans are waging in states, red states and blue states and swing states every day. this race last night also brought in focus how that is playing and how voters are acting and responding at the polls. >> well, i mean, i think that you could see that and again, this is very motivating for young people to vote keep in mind that in wisconsin, there is same-day voter registration and so the power of turning out voters on election day, where they were not able to vote in early elections because they -- those voting places were not allowed on campus during early vote and so, i think voters are really feeling the pull of democracy and feel the responsibility to protect democracy and these continues to be motivating issues for voters. and the untold story is the power that young people feel in protecting our democracy, and protecting their rights.

and these issues are going to come up before the supreme court in wisconsin in the short order. both redistricting maps that will come up before the court and abortion rights in front of the court. so this was a monumental election and needless to say, of course, judge janet was on stage celebrating with three other women who were on this supreme court who labored in the minority and now will help form a majority >> it was an incredible and -- an incredible visual i want to ask both of you to stick around because we have to talk about the other guy we're going to cover -- when we come back, how the defeated conservative acted last night in the wisconsin supreme court race i'm not even sure we could call it a concession. but we'll tell you about it. don't go anywhere.

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you're doing business in an app driven, multi-cloud world. that's why you choose vmware. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open. i do not have a worthy opponent to which i can concede. this was the most deeply deceitful, dishonorable, despicable campaign i have ever seen run for the courts. it was truly beneath contempt. my opponent is a serial liar this is the future that we have to look forward to in wisconsin. >> that was sore looserman -- i'm sorry, dan kelly, the conservative candidate after

losing fair and square last night for a seat on thehe wisconsin supreme court. all kidding aside. all of the things that republicans are parroting out in the states of refusing to concede, we can talk about whether they represent good or bad things in human character. but they are horrific electorally. the voters are not into them at all. if you reach a tipping point where -- wisconsin's maps are incredibly lopsided for a state you described as -- both of you did as one of the swingiest of all. the republican super majorities in the legislative chambers have the congressional delegation at a 6-2 split for a 50/50 state. what is possible now in terms of righting these non-representative maps? >> there's enormous potential for getting fair maps. i think -- i've spent a lot of

time in wisconsin. folks in wisconsin believe in democracy. they believe in fair play. this guy just obviously represents something so completely different one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this conversation is that, of course, there were allegations of pretty credible linkages between mr. kelly and the efforts to have a fake group of electors during the last election freedom and belief in our democracy was very much on the ballot the positions as you were illustrating earlier of the efforts to deny people the right to vote, ending boxes for balloting, this is against the grain of where wisconsin voters are. these are not partisan issues. i think wisconsin people believe in fairness. dan kelly did not represent that at all >> donna, the threats to democracy are chilling

the autocratic conduct of republican candidates is also a giant electoral zero it's a loser it looks weak. it looks unamerican. it looks like a bad practice it's not how anybody is raising their kids if you lose, you lose, and you walk across the field and shake the hands of the members of the other team that is not embodied by today's republicans. >> well, it's not embodied -- i mean, embraced by voters, that kind of behavior i think what you see is that trumpism has seeped into the core of the republican party dan kelly was endorsed by donald trump in 2020 but was not in this election. and yet, that trumpism goes all the way through from the election denying to the supporting the fake electors to the way that he ended this campaign by the way, he trashed one of

his republican opponents, a woman, in the same race in the primary so badly that it turned off so many of those independent and moderate voters who were turned off by dan kelly. so this is a dead loser for republicans. but they haven't seemed to realize it it doesn't translate into votes in a general election. >> it's amazing to watch a political party sort of rot and implode from the inside out. amazing. i'm grateful to both of you to join us to talk about this race last night thank you so much. coming up next for us, a major development in that dominion defamation case a judge says he is willing to force rupert murdoch to testify live in thatri tal the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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trump was criminally charged because he is planning to challenge joe biden. if donald trump have retired in 2020, would he have been arraigned today? of course not. this is the boldest election interference attempted in this country's history. >> hi, everyone. it would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous that happened hours -- hours before that happened, before tucker carlson made those accusations, he was offered up, he was listed as witnesses his

witness intends to make available in the trial examining fox's role in the former president's attempts to interfere in the previous election the lawsuit against fox news will go to trial.work filed its witnesses. among the list, names you will recognize. fox anchors. reuters reports, the list promised a high wattage parade of witnesses at the jury trial scheduled to start april 17th and expected to last four weeks. conspicuously absent from fox's list, that company's chairman, rupert murdoch, and his son. today dominion asked the judge to compel live testimony from the murdochs as well as from fox board member paul ryan and

another fox executive. that fight escalated in a hearing this afternoon where delaware's superior court judge deemed ed their testimony is relevant and lawyers for dominion should issue trial subpoena s to force their testimony. i would not quash it and i would compel them to come. it would be my discretion this fight. this fight over witnesses with less than two weeks ahead of the defamation lawsuit against fox news goes to trial is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends jeremy pieters is here joining us, katie phang, and tim miller is back jeremy, i start with you it sounds like dominion wants the murdochs to testify. the judge says he will support and back a subpoena for them if

that's the path they choose. it sounds like they will testify. >> they absolutely will. i think inside fox it was always considered a bit of a legal long shot to keep them off the witness stand. delaware law compels corporate officers like the murdochs to testify in these trials. the judge himself at a hearing last week indicated he was losing patience with a lot of fox's arguments and objections at one point said, look, i have read news reports about rupert murdoch getting engaged and talking about how excited he was to be traveling around to his houses everywhere around the world. i think it's possible he can get on a plane and come down to wilmington, delaware, to testify for an afternoon in the end, that's what you heard from the judge today the murdochs will testify in the trial. we don't know exactly when that's really significant. the murdochs have a history of

their personal appearances making a big difference in these highly contentious types of cases. you will remember back about a decade ago during the phone hacking scandal in britain, rupert murdoch testified before parliament that was when he had a pie thrown in his face and his wife at the time interrupted -- tried to interester september the pie fro -- intercept the pie. it was a bad look. inside fox -- people around the murdochs were hoping to avoid testimony for reasons similar to that they didn't want another image problem dogging this trial he is in his 90s by most accounts i hear, he is very sharp anybody in their 90s is not going to be physically all there. it does really raise questions

about what his presence before the jury signals to them if that's a help or a hindrance to fox's overall case. we see in his deposition that murdoch is very testy. he gets very impatient and snappish that's not a good look before the jury these guys -- we have seen with trump over the years they are not used to being challenged they are not used to facing tough questions and grow impatient when confronted with them i think his potential testimony really could be one of the make or break moments in this trial >> katie, i will stay away from the engagement, the plane, the houses and the age i will say that what we know that has been revealed through the multiple filings is that rupert murdoch thought it was -- i want to quote him.

it was, quote, pretty much a crime what trump was doing by lying about the elect result rupert murdoch thought it was a, quote, wpretty much a crime and thought it was inevitable that everything would blow up on january 6. how much is the foreknowledge and talking about this impugn anything else that gets said in the trial? >> the trial is focusing on a very strict window of time it's not going to be forever and a day. it's really from the moment when the election occurred in november until january of 2021 i will say the judge noted and told all parties today, january 6 will not be a part of this trial. it will not be raised. it will not become an issue in this trial, because the judge says the defamation at issue,

that dominion voting says was perpetrated by fox news and fox corporation, pre-dated that january 6 insurrection date. to your point, rupert murdoch is about to eat a $1.6 billion plus pie of crow because at this point, he has blessed what happened on his network. interestingly, judge davis set this up for dominion, meaning, when he denied dominion's motion for summary judgement when it came to whether or not fox published the defamatory statements, he basically created a situation where dominion voting had to come to the court and say, we needthese witnesse to appear. we need them to appear they have to appear live the judge agreed with dominion the very last page of the order from the judge dated march 31st says these are the issues for the jury to consider

publication and actual malice and whether dominion incurred damages. right now, dominion -- doesn't have a perfect ride but it has an easier ride in front of the jury when they go to trial. >> tim, i want to show our viewers and put up for all of us the actual moments on the air when what katie is talking about, when the alleged defamation takes place this is a series of clips and moments on fox news broadcast where the conduct allegedly transpires >> we talked about the dominion software i know that there were voting irregularities tell me about that >> that's to put it mildly the computer glitches could not and should not have happened at all. that is where the fraud took place, where they were flipping votes in the computer system or

adding votes that did not exist. >> we have tremendous evidence already of fraud in this election >> i have gone over everything i have been able to find nobody liked dominion voting systems. nobody, the professor, the three democrats, the state of texas. they had problems in georgia why we would use a system that everybody agreed sucked or had problems is beyond me. >> at the same time, as you put together your case, i assume that you are getting to the bottom of exactly what dominion is, who started dominion, how it can be manipulated if it is manipulated at all, and what evidence do you have to prove this >> yes, we are collecting evidence through a fire hose >> tim, the problems for fox news as i understand it from smart reporters like jeremy and smart lawyers like katie, isn't just the outrageous things that were on their airwaves but

behind every one of those clips is a pile of evidence that dominion told them not of that was true talk about where we are two weeks ahead of this trial. >> they knew none of it was true in a weird way, the best thing fox has going for them is that maria is in those clips and is so insane that when you look at her emails and texts, she's the only one that seems to have drank the kool-aid fully and believes this stuff. she's begging steve bannon to save her and talking about crying i think maria is off the deep end. all of the other folks, tucker, laura, rupert, suzann, they all knew they said in all these emails that they knew it's unprecedented they have never seen emails like this that revealed a journalist saying i know this is untrue, but we have to say it because that's what our viewers want

it is as cut and dry as possible for everybody in the case who hasn't gone fully -- flew over the cuckoo's nest like maria not only did they know it was untrue, they actually tried to get vengeance against the people and staff, multiple people that tried to correct the record. they threatened to fire jackie who tweeted the truth. there was a producer they targeted behind the scenes the evidence here is overwhelming that all of the decision makers at fox knew that this was a lie and yet put it forth anyway because they are scared of their own viewers, which is a m microcosm of the republican movement. >> it's a snapshot of the american right jeremy, because i have the three of you, you want to go over the

witness list i want to ask you to tell me what it is that they each provide. tim mentioned maria. she will be a witness. fox will make her available. tucker, lou, sean and janine i will stop there. the others are in a different category tell me what you think these witnesses speak to >> i think maria, for lack of a better term, is going to be the star witness she's the centerpiece. it starts with her november 8th broadcast and that clip you played what we know, because of the evidence dominion has been able to secure from fox, is that maria had ample reason to suspect that powell was not credible because she was in receipt of an email from the source, who your viewers know,

was the woman who talks to ghosts as a credible journalist, i think -- i find it hard to believe that any juror is going to look at that email, know that maria had it in her possession and say it was a good call, it wasn't reckless to put someone like that on the air she's really going to be at the forefront. i think lou dobbs will be interesting. he no longer works for the network. fox fired him in early 2021. i would be very curious to see whether or not the bad blood that may exist between the two has any affect on his testimony. i can imagine he is probably quite disgruntled because he has been thrown under the bus. i just don't know. i would have my eye on the two of them. i think also, suzann, she is key

to this case because what you see in her emails with rupert murdoch is she was giving -- she provided a rationale that this is a business decision their pursuit of guests who would espouse the big lie and encouraging their hosts to tamp down on any who sutggested the big lie should not be on the air, that is all -- she makes clear that's because they were terrified of what was happening to their ratings they wanted to preserve their profits. that is the kind of cynical thinking i think that is going to resonate with a jury when it comes to deciding a decision and ultimately damages if it comes to that. >> katie, the evidence that's been amassed seems to have these things so synced up in terms of what we have been able to see so far.

we see from dominion that 3,280 communications went from dominion to fox news we see confirmation of receipt knowledge that they were told the information was false. then we see the motive as jer k jeremy is getting at trump is a destroyer but he will not destroy us he is obsessed with the ratings. we see this message. this has to stop now this being any coverage that includes the truth about the results of the election. i'm going to address this tomorrow there's a lack of understanding what's happening in these shows. the audience is furious and we are feeding them material. how does the knowledge they were broadcasting false information and the revelations that their motive was ratings and not

losing any viewers -- this is in the emails as well -- how does that present to a jury as a full and complete narrative >> there's two critical concepts when it comes to that. this concept of actual malice, which dominion has to prove, can be done in one of two ways they have to prove that fox knew what they were putting up was false or fox justd disregarded the truth and the falsity of what they were putting up there consider what youyou read dominion has hours of that testimony, hours of corroborating evidence that supports this idea when the judge granted summary judgement on behalf of dominion to the issue of falsity, and you showed it on the show on friday, you showed that the judge put in all caps and bold, it's crystal clear that anything that was said about dominion on fox news, the viewers that they took it in, anything that was consumed

about dominion on fox was false. thank you. now all you need is to put the bow on it. it's the damaniel damages for d. it will be supported by the text, email, chat, everything internal one thing i would add is that on this witness list from fox, you will hear from people that were the executive vice president of primetime programming. you will hear from the executive producers and producers. it wasn't just the hosts the hosts that were going rogue. they were not hosts going rogue. this went from the top all the way down that's why for dominion to present a complete picture, they need all way down to lou dobbs. >> the defamation was the corporate plan it was their programming decision from the top to the bottom >> let's start at the very top with rupert. you could almost take everything

out of this except for the email you just read talking about how it's bad business to tell the truth and the email from rupert when he is justifying why to put the my pillow guy on tv. he had been spreading the most insane conspiracies about the election that even tucker carlson said he knew was insane. rupert said, this isn't about red or blue, it's about green. they gave their motive as clear as day in emails this was about money this was about audience share. that's why -- i give a lot of credit to the ceo of dominion. he is out for blood on this. i think he is going to try to get his rightful compensation. >> tim, there's the legal part of this story. we tried to cover that as someone who was in the republican party, who has spent time on fox news, i know most of

the viewers of this network think it's been this evil. i think it's incredibly devastating and sickening look at how cynical they were, how they treated their viewers they don't revere them because they respect them. they fear them because they know they are addicted to the disinformation there's a sickness that is revealed through their internal communications with one another. they don't believe any of this but they will peddle the bs to their viewers. it's like that -- the guy eats mcdonald's every day the anchors aren't taking this as fact. they know it's bs. they know trump -- they believe trump is, quote, demonic but they will revere him to the viewers. they will feed them the bs for all of the legal power and importance and relevance, the window into sort of the rot of the most watched cable network, not just on the right but in the

country, is unbelievable >> i agree with all of that. from my own experience, there are always shows i think that shaded the truth or lied go back to the early 2010s i think that the network really did have this push and pull. they had real news folks they continue to have a couple left over there that are out there doing reporting. the opinion hosts. there was a push or pull in 2015 and 2016, they used to have me on as an anti-trump republican to argue. it wasn't just me. there were others. once trump won, i think that they just really realized that they lost control of the audience they basically shut that down. it went from a network that had a sickness, had some problems, didn't practice perfect journalism, which is an understatement, between 2000 and 2016, to one that became a

propaganda network they lost control of their own audience i think that this -- the window into these private emails show what we knew to be true, to be true in spades >> no one is going anywhere. when we come back, how the dominion trial and trump's indictment are just one part of what could be a pretty rotten month of legal developments for the ex-president and trumpian republicans in america later, an alarming and anti-democratic development out of the state of tennessee. the republican majority in the statehouse is trying to expel three democrats for participating in a protest calling for gun safety legislation. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. that's why you choose vmware. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open.

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the upcoming dominion fox news lawsuit going to trial is just one of the many remarkable legal battles that will be waged this month most of them centered around trump or trumpism. yesterday, of course, marked the historic arrest of an ex-president who was indicted on 34 felony counts of falsifying business records next week, donald trump will have to return to new york where he will be deposed for the second time in new york's quarter of a billion dollar civil fraud suit against him and his kids on april 25th, trump will be in court once again as there's a civil suit where the

ex-president is accused of assaulting carol, it will finally go to trial. we don't spend enough time covering all of these legal carts being pushed down the aisle. tell me the state of e. jean carroll. >> it's going to trial april 25th we say that there's two cases. we call them carroll one and carroll two. he was still in the oval office and he said, she's a liar. she's not my type. he said that distastefully the doj under garland intervened and stepped into the shoes of where trump was as a defendant that's up on appeal to determine whether or not trump defaming a woman like he did was something that was covered through the

course of his duties or job as president of the united states i submit, absolutely not you know, maybe some smarter people will agree with me. she's the second defamation and sexual assault lawsuit brought last year by her he, not in the oval office, defames her again on truth social he is looking at a defamation lawsuit. there was a new york state law that came into affect last year that allows people like e. jean carroll to sue for sexual battery because the statute of limitations would normally not permit that to occur both of those have been combined for purposes of discovery. donald trump was deposed during that deposition, he was shown a picture of his ex-wife, ma marla maples -- he was shown a picture of e. jean carroll and he said, why is my ex-wife marla

maples here? all kidding aside, it's a very important trial. it's her day in court. critically, two other victims of sexual assault and battery by donald trump, a federal judge is allowing them to testify at e. jean's trial what's left to be seen is what and how is donald trump going to respond to three different victims that he is going to have to defend against during this trial? >> jeremy, it goes without saying that fox's own complicated history around sexual assault issues inside fox news, it was a subject of some incredible reporting in "the new york times," which was turned into a movie it was the subject of a scripted movie called "bombshell" that depicted some of the more prominent female anchors, how they cover these things is int interesting to me. i don't have any expectation that it will be forthright or honest

>> or how they don't cover them. right? that's the power it's less than their coverage of crime in new york city and how alvin bragg has failed to prosecute certain offenders. it's less they are picking apart the weaknesses in his case, which is basically how a lot of this is getting covered -- a lot of the trump indictment is getting covered on fox at the moment that's not nearly as powerful as viewers of the network not hearing at all about many of these charges, many of these allegations. they are certainly not hearing much at all about what's happening with fox news and dominion the network issued a blackout in coverage i think that's part of a careful and cynical business calculation that if their audience doesn't hear about it from fox, they are

not going to hear about it from other conservative media therefore, it doesn't really matter in their eyes if this goes to trial. it doesn't matter to their bottom line because their viewers will be in the dark about it i think that there's -- that's an awfully risky gamble to make because as you pointed out and we have mentioned many times on the show, the contempt that tucker carlson and others inside the network show not just for trump but the lack of respect they appear to have for the intelligence of their own viewership is something that gets around. i've seen the trump movement evolve, and i've seen his teflon nature surprise me so many times with how little consequence he paid for what he has done to not

be naive about the fact that this fox trial ultimately may have no impact on their bottom line or have no resonance with their viewers. i do know that donald trump running for president in 2024, he can turn on fox news in a dime as he has in the past what this lawsuit shows us is just how afraid fox is of that happening again. i think that has a possibility to be one of the most intriguing story lines of the next two years. >> the x factor that i don't think anybody really takes out and turns around is the people running against trump in a republican primary trump is in the gutter if ron desantis plans to meet him there and take him on and not go the way of the 14 republicans who trump ousted

with vicious attacks, like the ones he launched against desantis, he will have to use the airwaves of fox news to remind people of these developments he is not going to beat him in a debate over tax rates. what do you think the airwaves of fox will sort of countenance in terms of republicans attacking trump on any of the shows? >> you know, there was all these rumors going around about how rupert was done with trump and the new york post had some negative trump headlines fox didn't have him on for a while. i noticed the same thing jeremy noticed the last couple days they are monitoring fox and watching clips and watching of it i can stomach, they are running cover for him. asa hutchinson was making fun of him for being a liz cheney republican the one guy that's actually doing what you think fox would want, which is espouse

conservative policies and not bring the whole party down into the trumpian gutter. it seems like fox is teaet teetg in fox's direction there's one area where i zag from conventional wisdom everybody is talking about how trump is being helped by the indictments. i guess that's true in the short term if you look at numbers. just listening to that list in the intro, which wasn't totally inclusive of all of the investigations that are out there, this guy is going to be in court every month for the rest of the year you are telling me that's going to help him? is everyone 100% sure that having court dates about sexual assault and fraud and an insurrection is going to help him? i'm not so sure. i would love to see one of the republicans try to use it against him. i'm not counting -- i'm not holding my breath. >> we have learned better than to hold our breath that any of them would actually take him on. it will be interesting if it

happens. thank you so much for being part of our coverage today. coming up for us here, tennessee republicans are trying to expel three democratic lawmakers for leading a protest demanding gun safety reform just days after a tragic mass shooting at a school in shville. we will bring you that story next -to go bowling with us tonight? -yeah. no. there's my little marzipan! [ laughs ] oh, my daughter gives the best hugs! we're just passing through on our way to the jazz jamboree. [ imitates trumpet playing ] and we wanted to thank america's number-one motorcycle insurer -for saving us money. -thank you. [ laughs ] mara, your parents are -- exactly like me? i know, right? well, cherish your friends and loved ones. let's roll, daddio! let's boogie-woogie! you need to deliver new apps fast using the services you want in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control,

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this is wrong. this is not a democracy. this is what a dictatorship --

this is what that form of government -- that's what we expect but not here in the state of tennessee, not in the united states of america. >> the state constitution says lawmakers have a right to protest against and dissent from legislation that's injurious to the people that's what we were doing. >> they are going with the nra and the tennessee firearms association instead of listening to the people of tennessee they are allowing children to die while doing nothing. >> tennessee state lengislators responding to the extraordinary move by tennessee republicans to expel them for protesting against their own state's inaction on gun violence the three have been stripped of their committee assignments. their i.d. badges have been deactivated. they no longer work to open doors to their offices or the building the resolutions to expel them alleges that the three had

participated in, quote, disorderly behavior. the speaker of the house likened the protests to a, quote, insurrection one of the members facing expulsion pointed out this we had a child molester open the floor for years. they helped him get re-elected and did nothing to expel him we have had members pee in each other's chairs we have had members illegally prescribe drugs to their cousin mistress and nothing happened. talk on the floor without permission and you will get expelled that vote is set for tomorrow. joining us right now, one of the three tennessee house democrats being targeted for expulsion by republicans, state representative gloria johnson. the chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university joins us as well representative johnson, i want to go back in time let me start with right now. tell me what the situation is that you face today and what you expect tomorrow.

>> it's hard to know what to expect this is unprecedented. interestingly enough, i got a visit from hr where they told me that if we are expelled, i will lose my health insurance if i were to resign, i would not lose my health insurance this is -- what we plan to do is show up. we are happy to speak to this issue and talk about what happened we want a hearing in front of the people we want folks to be able to see, we're not going to make any deals. we want to plead our case in front of the people. that's what we plan to do we spoke up for victims of gun violence i'm a teacher. i taught for 27 years. i taught at central high school in 2008 when we had a shooting

it was breakfast in the cafeteria. i was in my room that morning. my classroom was disconnected from the main part of the school i look up and i saee kids runnin down the hall, heading toward my classroom, screaming, crying no idea what's happening when they finally get in the room, it was several minutes before they could even articulate what had happened and what they had seen the trauma, the fear of those students, i will never, ever forget i will always make sure that i speak up for victims of gun violence and for gun sense legislation. we were not given a voice on the house floor to speak up that day. >> i am so sorry that you are a victim of the trauma of the country's epidemic of gun violence as a firsthand witness of how this can and does impact our youngest and most precious

i'm surprised that they haven't turned to you, especially in the wake of the tragic shooting last week can we go back to the shooting can you take me inside what has happened in the state where the protests -- when they started, when your support of the protesters put you at odds with republicans in the chamber >> sure. that morning i got there early because i knew that there were going to be protesters there i wanted to speak to them. i wanted to know -- them to know they were seen and that there were people in that room that cared about what was happening and cared about the safety of their kids i talked to so many mothers who were crying. they had just dropped their children off at school they were nervous about dropping their kids off at school, hoping that they would be safe when they returned to pick them up that afternoon they were saying that they had -- every time you hear about this, you have a fear.

when it happens in your community, that fear is even greater. is my child going to be safe today? we are the only nation in the world that has this type of gun violence there are things that we can do. they talk about they want to harden our schools and put more security we need to keep our schools safe but if we are smart, we will prevent the guns from ever getting to the school door we don't want gun battles at the school we want to make sure that those weapons do not get to the door of our children's schools. >> representative justin pierson has joined our conversation. i want to ask one more question, representative johnson what caused the break with republicans? it would seem that a tragedy in

which three 9-year-old children in your state are murdered in a mass shooting at an elementary school might -- i don't know, maybe i'm too delusional for the times in which we live might create or generate a moment of unity. when did -- was it because the parents that were scared and protesting and demanding gun safety legislation were not welcome -- what caused the rupture that led to this unbelievably fast escalation where tomorrow you and two of our colleagues may be expelled from the body? how does that happen >> well, because we have a body that has taken away our voice. they have lessened and lessened the ability to debate on the floor. we usually have something called welcome and honoring in the morning. we wanted to welcome and honor those folks, those victims coming in. as the democrats walked through the protesters, we talked to them we listened to them. as my colleagues across the

aisle walked by, they didn't even make eye contact with those moms and toddlers and teenagers. our nability to be allowed to recognize them, to lift their voices on the house floor was incredibly frustrating justin pierson, he can talk more to how he was shut down in addition we had bills where they didn't call on our members. quickly called the question. we weren't allowed to have that discussion, debate or even mention the protesters we decided we need to make sure that between bills we walk to that podium and let them know we saw them, we heard them, we are with them on their issue and we want to bring gun sense legislation. >> representative johnson, you said hr told you if you resign you keep your health care, if you are expelled you lose it do you have any plans to resign?

>> have i ni have no plans to r. if they want to bring that resolution to the floor, i am ready to fight in full view of the state of tennessee and all of my constituents >> representative pierson, thank you for joining us today i want you to take me through how this escalated so quickly in your view that you and two of your colleagues face expulsion from the chamber for standing with your constituents, for standing with a majority of americans who would like to see something done on the topic of gun safety legislation >> thousands of people came to the capitol, mostly children and teenagers, asking for the representatives in the statehouse to do something they came to the capitol for us to do something, to pass gun sense legislation, to stop the epidemic of gun violence that took the lives of six people in nashville and my community of memphis, a beautiful place, we

are dealing with an increase of murders by 44% we are dealing with people breaking into cars to steal guns because we passed a permitless carry law in tennessee we went to the house floor to speak up and to hear the voices of our constituents and we need justice and action, the republican party has said, you need to be expelled. not because we committed a crime, like the last two folks who got expelled people who committed criminal acts were expelled because we broke house decorum, we went to the floor using our first amendment right to listen to the rights of children and teenagers and mothers grieving, we are told we are being expelled it's the language of people in positions of power in the republican party that's leading to this escalation he called children who held signs saying am i next, who held signs saying i'm 9 like three of the victims, he called them

insurrectionists he called grieving mothers insurrectionists that language, that is what continues to promote division and it promotes extreme measures like the expulsion of democratically elected members >> two weeks before the mass shooting that took the lives of three 9-year-olds as well as three adults, six people were m murdered that day, a poll in tennessee revealed that 70% of the citizens of tennessee would like to see background checks on all gun sales in the state, 63% would like red flag laws there to temporarily remove guns, about 54% would like to see the age increased to 21 and a slim -- a minority of 35% would

like to see all teachers carrying guns for their shootouts that representative johnson warned about we have this conversation a lot of days about republicans leaning into authoritarian and anti-democratic tactics. i don't think you see it this starkly where three representatives face expulsion for doing so what do you think the stakes are tomorrow in tennessee for the country? >> well, i think it's a part that stands in for the whole there are components here. we hear a description from representative johnson of a process, the distorted nature of the deliberative process within the house of johnson of a process, the nature of the deliberative process within the house of representatives that the minority party can engage in actual debate around issues and policies and bills that affect

their constituencies that's shut down so it opens up space where they have to engage in insurgent activity, disruptive activity to have their voices heard. then we have on the bases of breaking rule of decor rum, you're going to disenfranchise people in district 90, district 82, district 86, you're going disenfranchise them because you really don't care about democracy. but it says to me what they're doing in this moment is turning a blind eye to the reality that those 9-year-olds were murdered because of their policies, were slaughters because of their policies it seems to me, nicolle, it represents the devolution of our democratic process it also necessitates that we act in this bold kind of way we cannot cower in the face of it all we have to fight it as aggressively as we can so i applaud the representatives for doing what they do, what they're doing, and to continue

to fight >> representative pierson, do the republicans have a policy proposal that you can debate with them to advance the beliefs of 70% of voters in state that background legislation is needed >> the republicans have not proposed any such legislation. the legislation that we have seen this session in particular is all about how we protect the second amendment even today there's a proposal we can arm teachers the publications now about schools isn't about how we can prevent guns, the conversation is how do we make sure the schools all have security resource officers? how do we make sure one person in leadership -- tank in front of every school. the reality is about the gun violence in your country is that of with to realize, a lot of communities, black and poor communities are suffering from is not only in schools it is in your neighborhood

it's something we are experiencing every single day. i have my own classmate this year killed by gun violence. we have mothers and brothers and sisters and grand cyst parents that have to grieve -- >> we will not take our eyes off the goings on in your state. i welcome both of you back tomorrow to make me through, as the republicans continue escalation representative gloria johnson and justin pierson, thank you so much and eddie glove, thank you so much for being here. another break for us we'll be right back.

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