will not do that until house republicans propose their budget, which they have not done republicans now are trying to argue they can talk about the debt ceiling without talking about the budget, trying to separate those two things. kevin mccarthy this week reiterated that house republicans are prepared to pass a debt ceiling increase with the spending cuts they're looking for, without democratic help we're all over the place, but no progress has been made with raising the debt ceiling tl three months' time is running out, though there is time. the other thing i'll note, congress isn't great all the time at multi-tasking, right they sometimes get thrown off course with other news of the day. for example, the trump indictment that's taken up the oxygen in the room it remains to be seen when we will get back to a real, hard core conversation and focus on the debt ceiling nonetheless, it has to happen

soon because time is running out. >> congress is ready to get on the easter recess. they had gop priorities, too, into the administration, all sidelined because they're rallying again to the defense of donald trump who continues to exert influence over the party thank you, as always great to see you this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts now. after he was arrested, apparently today, donald trump has called for america to de-fund the police, ithe fbi, te department of justice, because the democrats have weaponized law enforcement. all right. who in this panel, who thinks that is a good idea? all right. nobody >> oh, man >> well, yeah. >> donald trump's vengeance messaging doesn't seem to be resonating with his base the former president continues to rage post

that's a thing, on social media. despite a warning from the judge not to do so meanwhile, mike pence will have to testify before a federal grand jury in one of the cases tied to donald trump we'll tell you which one, and why the former president is finally ready to talk. plus, the gop-controlled statehouse in tennessee could take historic action today against three democratic lawmakers. we'll explain the controversy, which is connected to protests for gun legislation. and two of those democrats will be joining us live right here on "morning joe." good morning. >> good morning. you know, that was interesting, the clip of steve and the republican voters. you know, willie, there's been this belief by donald trump himself that -- and goldberg wrote this in his newsletter yesterday -- that, somehow, he is america in flesh form

that he represents all of america. so if he is indicted, that means the entire american judicial system is corrupt. there is no law and order. jonah went down the his list of ridiculous and outrageous these things were. there are still people out there. we run into them they still see donald trump as the embodiment of all of america. he is the state. so if things are going well for him, the state is good if things are going badly for him, america is just terrible. in that case, though, we do see some breakage there. this idea that donald trump wants to de-fund the premier law enforcement agency in america. the idea that donald trump hates so many american institutions now, the department of justice, it doesn't naturally follow, even with people that voted for him twice. >> yeah, you saw tliit there inh

informal focus group, that appeared on fox news, by the way. this is the truth social post, trump calling to de-fund the doj, which reverend sharpton said is de-funding the police. interesting, as some dremocrats and progressives called for that it's the story of his life, isn't it you flatter me and are nice to me, i like you you're great you're the greatest of all time. all the things, the flattery he gives in return. if you turn on me or if things go badly ly for my, you're my mortal enemy he has some helpers with him yesterday, we heard from house of representatives, republicans, going after again, yesterday, alvin bragg, saying, "we are going to investigate the district attorney's office, the department of justice. they say it's been weaponized

because it's holding donald trump to account he has a little help. >> again, it has a negative impact you have republicans that are actually in the house following him. if he trashes the military, or if somebody thinks the military didn't snap to attention and help him take over the government, suddenly, you have the heads of the military, the chairman of the joint chiefs, a man who served honorably in war and peacetime, getting trashed by republicans you have republicans in the senate saying that they wish we were more like russia. they wish our troops were more like russian troops, which, of course, is preposterous. our troops are the best. the readiness is better than ever before. this blurring of the assumption that anybody -- if the united states army or if our military leaders or if the premier law

enforcement agency is just doing jobs, suddenly, they hate them now, donald trump wants to de-fund the police he wants to de-fund the fbi, the doj. again, these are the people who keep you and me, your families, my family, safe from terrorism safe from drug cartels swarming in you know, people in the fbi and the doj, every day, these are professionals. they were here before trump. they'll be there after trump again, just the hatred is -- >> it's palpable. >> it is palpable. again, it's not following a lot of members of the base. >> no, it's not. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house abbureau chf at "politico," jonathan lemire jennifer palmieri, communications under obama she's co-host of "the circus."

reporter for "the guardian," hugo loulwell is with us. there is extra security for those involved in the manhattan case against donald trump following a string of unsubstantiated threats. according to two sources familiar with the matter, the judge and his family have received multiple threats since the hearing on tuesday the threats have also reportedly continued against manhattan district attorney alvin bragg and his staff. last month, a concerning letter with suspicious white powder, which was later found to be non-hazardous, were sent to the dp d.a.'s office. trump has escalated his rhetoric towards those involved in the case in recent weeks while he didn't mention anyone by name on his social media site yesterday, he did blast the, quote,lunatics, maniacs and perverts that, he says, had him arrested.

>> wait a minute, that's interesting. what's the -- perverts what does this case involve? >> so this case involves hush money to a porn star, which, by the way, if i could just frame calmly, but, you know, i don't know any other candidate who pays off playboy bunnies and porn stars, where that is not something that everybody goes, stop, whoa, like, does this campaign continue or whatever? he has normalized things that, i don't know, are fairly unseemly. >> for evangelicals, he is illegally sending hush money. >> we're all rolling past that. >> he is illegally sending hush money to playboy bunnies and to porn stars. >> that's an aside. >> and he is talking about perverts again, i guess this is, again, projection or confession i don't know exactly what it is. again, you do wonder, like, evangelicals continuing to support this guy

i know the numbers are supposedly dwindling, but when they have a choice, somebody like ron desantis or nikki haley or all these other people, to continue lined up behind him is really, really crazy i come from this area. i come -- this is my community, right? these are some people who would not let their children listen to rock music in high school. >> right. >> because it was satan e's musc now, donald trump, porn stars, playboy models, oh, that's awesome. yeah, go, donald fight for us, trump. fight for our right. it's really -- they've twisted themselves in knots. now, i would just say, a charge that begins, maybe weaker legally, but a charge that begins with a payoff to a porn star, a payoff to a playboy bunny weeks before a presidential election, weeks

before an election, to keep that hidden, that is actually not the best case, willie, for evangelicals to once again have to walk through that moral minefield, to somehow justify supporting this guy. in some cases, in some cases, hold him up as some, like, secular idol, like it's a cult it's really sick >> what's the old line we've been hearing, joe, both of us, mika, all of us for the last eight years? look, we elected a president, not a saint. he is going to go fight for us we're willing to look the other way because he got us three supreme court justices, roe versus wade was overturned all the things we get from donald trump are worth all the things that come with donald trump. but it is -- >> but, willie, that's not -- >> that's the argument. >> that's not what they said -- i know that's not what they said -- all i heard when i was in congress when bill clinton was president, "how dare you not impeach him every day.

how dare you." >> right. >> you can't be president if you don't have character every republican every evangelical. every conservative they said it repeatedly. when character was king, what's his name book of values or whatever it's called are you kidding me now, those hucksters are first in line defending him, presenting as if everything said when bill clinton was president of the united states no longer is in on video tape. it is on video tape. it is in books we got it. they're all liar hypocrites. >> it's worth stopping and remembering what we're talking about here allegedly, that he is alleged to have done in this case jen, there have been so many lines crossed along the way. people sort of keep moving along, there goes another one. for me, it started when he criticized john mccain way back in july of 2015. everyone said, you can't criticize john mccain. he is a war hero

you can't mock what he went through. his poll numbers started going up, and he didn't look back from there. from there, line after line after line have been crossed, and people who support him are happy and willing to look the other way. >> that is -- i remember that moment i was in iowa with hillary clinton, and then when i saw him say that, i was like, this is it when it wasn't, you're like, this guy is in this for the -- he has tapped into something and is in it for the long haul there is no bottom every day reminds us how there is no -- every day, there is no bottom but, you know, with the evangelical voters, ooi've talk to them. they support donald trump. you know, the sanctity of life, abortion, that is their thing. but they're not that -- you know, a lot of them are not that part comfortable with it. if someone would push back, if a republican would say -- i mean, you saw on fox news, we saw supporters -- republican supporters on fox news say, "i don't like it when trump says

de-fund the police." because they like trump doesn't mean they like everything he says if a republican candidate would actually talk about the substance of the stormy daniels case and say how uncomfortable they are with it, it might have a resonance with the republican voters but no one is willing to do that. >> no one is willing to do that. every republican, including those challenging trump for the nomination, when they talk about the case, it's simply to attack d.a. bragg we have members of congress trying to use official powers to investigate bragg and strip him of his funding they are not going to do that. there is probably an opening here for 13someone to move in, even on the evangelicals there's been reporting recently about unhappiness, about how trump has walked away from his supreme court picks that helped overturn roe v. ade. we saw that time after time, perhaps it hasn't been worth it. evangelicals maybe not so happy about that but he is still, and we see his

poll numbers continue to go up, he is the front runner but with his latest comments about de-funding the police, let's also think about who that puts in an uncomfortable position the republicans in the house, particularly the ones who won the biden district, they tipped the house to republicans last time around. they have to come back to voters and say whether they support this call to de-fund federal law enforcement, when, for so many americans right now, crime is a real concern. >> willie, what is so fascinating is, about trump, trump is -- and the pro lifers know this. i mean, evangelicals say, "oh, we'll look past the porn stars, past the playboy bunnies, even though it makes us complete raging hypocrites for what we said about bill clinton, complete, raging hypocrites in front of our children, in front of the families, the preacher,

the people we go to church with, makes ushypocrites they wremember what we said with bill clinton if you don't have character, how can you run this country we're a country of this and that it's all they said, nonstop. they looped throughout the 1990s about bill clinton's character now, suddenly saying it doesn't matter now, well, at least he is pro life did they not hear this same guy? did they not hear him blame pro lifers for the losses in 2022? >> yeah. >> did they not hear how he was freaking out when he heard that roe v. wade might be overturned after the leaked case came out like, it was donald trump who was freaking out because he's been pro choice his whole life this is like birthism and

everything else. he didn't mind trading his world views to get the republican nomination, but he freaked out when he heard roe v. wade may be overturned now, he's with a porn star and playboy bunny, but we're with him on abortion. he agrees with us. no, he blamed them for the 2022 election he blamed roe's overturning for the '22 election i'm sure he'll blame it for what happened in wisconsin, as well >> as you're saying that, joe, when he decided to become pro life, i'm remembering the moment with chris matthews during the 2016 campaign in that town hall. chris asked him, do you think women who get abortions should be punpunished you could see the gears turn what is the right answer he said, yes, women should be punished we know he didn't necessarily believe that, but he was reaching and searching for what he thought was the right answer. speaking of all these comments that he has been making, and his family, on truth social, in addition to the ones about the

judge, trump and his family going after the judge's wife and adult daughter on social media on tuesday, trump's oldest sons shared p photos of the daughter, who they accuse of working for president biden and previously for kamala harris during her 2020 campaign. an nbc news review found no evidence the daughter ever worked for biden or harris personality. she was president of a digital advertising company that did work with a number of democrats, including the biden and harris campaign teams in the past >> wow. >> hugo lowell, you have former president of the united states using his big megaphone and his family, as well, particularly the two older sons, to go after the daughter of the judge in his own case, after the judge made those admonitions a couple days ago in court about laying low and not attacking judges, juries and everybody else. >> yeah.

i think trump has to be really careful about how he proceeds from here on out we had reporting before his arraignment he wanted to escalate his attacks on alvin bragg, the district attorney, and how he wanted to, quote, rough them up, using more colorful language than that. but if you were in the courtroom, you would have seen how the justice was very, very specific when he issued this directive. he looked at the prosecution and looked at the defense. i think he looked directly at it trump and said, "we have to tone down the rhetoric on both sides because this is getting out of hand." what does trump do that very same night back at palm beach? he goes and lashes out at the judge himself. if you want to avoid, you know, restrictive protective orders, gag orders, we should mention the justice did him a solid and said in court, you know, i'm not inclined to issue a gag order at this time. that is not the way to go about your trial there's still a very, very long way to go. if he wants to remain kind of an

active participant in the process, i think trump is really going to have to tamp down his rhetoric the other warning that we should remember that was issued was, if you're disruptive or, you know, act in at way that stops the wa we have expedient trials, you're going to be removed. >> mika, i want to get you in on a couple parts of this conversation first of all, evangelicals, porn stars and abortion, talking about just the rank hypocrisy of people who say, "oh, i support this guy because he is a man of guy. he is this he is that," and then they back off and say -- oh, by the way, they all voted for him after the "access hollywood" tape. again, they can vote for whoever they want to, but they can't say that a democratic president is destroying america because he doesn't have character, and then say when a republican is in there, it doesn't matter. >> right. >> here we are still with this case that's come forward

again, it's a -- it puts it right in the face of all these people who were so high and mighty and self-righteous. i could name preachers i could name book authors. you name it. columnists, everybody, republican politicians now, suddenly, character doesn't matter it's abortion. trump says, i don't care about abortion either. i think he lost the 2022 election >> if you look across our screen, you see porn star payoff fallout. that was about any democratic president, we'd be talking about the end of their presidency or candidacy. for donald trump, there's two things trump is under arrest, but no one, no one is disagreeing with what he is accused of, especially when it comes to the porn stars and the playboy model, where he is in these pictures with them apparently, there was an affair. they were paid off in some way they're trying to argue the

payoff was legal they're not trying to argue that this didn't happen that's number one. trump is under arrest. number two, accountability is seeping into donald trump's life he may slowly be feeling it because you can see in his truth social post, he's trying not to name names he's trying to edit what he is saying because the judge did warn him it could be a problem if his rhetoric or his words lead to trouble. so he has to change his behavior for the first time in his life, he can't do exactly what he wants to do because he is under arrest i'll tell you, i think, personally, just knowing trump, he'd love a gag order because he could then say his free speech, he is being persecuted i think the biggest risk that his lawyers, if they are good lawyers, which i guess is questionable because he's had to go through a lot of lawyers, but a good lawyer will tell him, "you need to be careful. you didn't do what you want to do anymore you can't be impulsive

you can't be undisciplined you can't just riff and go off the cuff and be trump anymore because the prosecution could move to accelerate this case." we've heard countless experts looking at this case, many of whom have said the core of this case is very sound >> yeah. >> on top of it, the prosecution, if they feel his rhetoric and his words is impacting the case and influencing it, they could ask the judge to move it up from december 4th. >> they could do that. he could also find him in contempt, put him in jail. i don't think he'd like that, even if it was for a night or two. >> all these things are a possibility. >> fif you're talking about, again, how other people are treated. of course, donald trump has been above the law his entire life he may not be completely above the law now, though he can do things no other criminal defendant would be allowed to do i am curious, hugo, let's talk

about mike pence for a second. pence decided he's not going to fight testifying anymore that's kind of like me in 1991 saying, "you know what, i guess i'm not going to fight mike tyson. i would have lost anyway pence was going to lose every one of these we've seen from the supreme court, they weren't going to let him get away from testifying i guess the question is, even if he does testify, how much is jack smith going to get out of him? >> that's actually the first time i've been asked that, and that is the key question in the entire investigation look, mike pence was there for everything he was there from november through to january 6th, and there's a lot of stuff he can testify about, you know, with respect to the efforts to overturn the election in certain states this composition of fake slates that the trump campaign was trying to put before him, so that he could essentially throw the election to the house on january 6th or, you know, in some other way, interrupt the

electoral certification. to me, having looked at this investigation for now nearly two years, as an investigator, what you'd want to find out is what pence was saying one-on-one with trump. what he was doing in preparation for january 6th. but i think those areas might actually be off limits, the way i read and the way i interpreted the order. he does have far reaching speech protections on the officer over the proceeding on january 6th. if there was an expectation we would learn his one-on-one conversations with trump, even if they touched on criminality, even if trump was trying to get him to throw states or electors out, it doesn't strike me as that being in the purview and the scope of the order so i think it is a partial win for jack smith, the special counsel, but there's also going to be elements he doesn't get. >> all right "the guardian's" hugo lowell, thank you for your reporting

what will probably happen there, they'll have the deposition. if he refuses to answer based on privilege, they could continue the deposition and then appeal these areas. my guess would be -- again, we don't know, but the supreme court would likely say, well, if something was said in the commission of a crime, it's just like the attorney-client privilege, they may decide to pierce that privilege. we'll see, though. a little bit different because you're talking about separation of powers. but i think it'll be more than likely that pence will be forced to testify to anything that could have been criminal. >> there are a number of legal challenges ahead for this former president. still ahead on "morning joe," house speaker kevin mccarthy meets with the president of taiwan. we'll discuss the sin gnificance of that meeting and what it

means for u.s. and china relations. also ahead, tennessee house republicans are taking steps to expel three democratic state representatives after they participated in protests, calling for new gun legislation. we'll talk to one of those democrats s next you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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that contain digoxin or if you have liver or kidney problems. side effects may include headache, common cold symptoms, diarrhea, nausea, urinary tract and upper respiratory tract infection. ask your doctor about gemtesa. more time here, less time there. beautiful shot of washington, d.c., as the sun comes up over washington welcome back to "morning joe." it's half past the hour. republicans in the tennessee house of representatives have introduced resolutions to expel

three democrats for what they are calling disorderly behavior. those three democrats approached the house podium in between bills last thursday. they chanted with protesters in the house chamber gallery, calling for action on gun violence after six people were killed in a nashville school shooting just days earlier because the lawmakers were not recognized to speak at the time, republicans say they broke chamber rules. the tennessee house speaker went as far as comparing their actions to the january 6th -- >> wait, wait, wait. i don't see any cops being beaten by trump supporters. >> do they have zip ties >> i don't see any trump supporters defecating on the floor. >> i don't think they did that i'm checking my facts here. >> i don't -- i don't see people running around screaming, looking for nancy pelosi or saying they're going to hang mike pence >> yeah, that was an unfortunate line. >> i don't understand that

i wonder, did the tennessee speaker, did he ever criticize donald trump for january 6th that'd be interesting to see. >> we'll check that. >> or is it more republican hypocrisy. >> they've been removed from their committee assignments. the final vote on whether to expel them is set for later today. historic context on this controversial vote, only two members of the tennessee house have been removed from office since the civil war. they're trying to remove them. >> one of three tennessee lawmakers facing expulsion, representative justin pearson. representative, thank you so much for being with us it seems you are being possibly expelled from an elected position because you practiced your free speech rights and maybe have broken some procedural rules in tennessee. how -- how unprecedented is this >> yes, this is an unprecedented

and historical moment in tennessee and american history because myself, representative rivers, representative jones, went to the well of the house in a peaceful protest to listen to the people, the thousands of children and teenagers who came to our state capital and demanded we do something about gun reform, that we do something about gun violence and the epidemic that is plaguing our communities. instead of spending many hours and time and energy on helping us solve the problem that led to the shooting in nashville, that has led to many shootings in our own communities of memphis and shelby county, instead of working on just legislation that actually helps to heal the pain that many children, parents and grandparents have come to our capital about, the response has been to expel members who were exercising their first amendment rights, to make sure that the people who were showing up, the families in the community, our const constituents, in the galleries were heard we were ignored during the welcoming and honoring, where we would have welcomed those who

came to protest peacefully, which was every single person who was there. there were over 5,000 people on that thursday. instead, the conversation was cut short by the speaker the speaker, who called these children insurrectionists, who called parents who are mourning and grieving insurrectionists. speaker cameron sexton was comparing the events of january 6th, where at least five people were killed, where dozens of police officers and law enforcement officers were beaten by people with pepper spray and batons that type of environment, he is comparing peaceful protesters, mostly children and teenagers who are saying, tennessee state lawmakers, it is time for you to do something, it is time for you to act we need to act on the epidemic of gun violence. we need to do it much sooner rather than later. >> it's a grotesque comparison obviously, those kids coming out of their schools on that day looking for legislation, legal passage of legislation, gun laws, versus the lie to brought

people to violence in the capitol on january 6th representative, is it true you've lost id access to the capital, you can't swipe in, you've been expelled from some committees a third part, are you worried you might be expelled all together from the house of representatives there? >> yes, the speaker and the republican party leadership of tennessee has expelled all of my colleagues off committees and refused to assign me a committee since our general election won in district 86 the reality is this body that is perpetuating injustice, that is silencing the voices of people who are demanding action, people in our community of memphis and shelby county who are saying, "we need to do something about gun reform we need to do something to end the gun violence epidemic. passing laws like permitless carry are not helpful. laws like lowering the restrictions for being able to -- lowering the age restriction to carry a gun is not helping.

arming teachers and turning our schools into prisons and fortresses is not helpful. people in our district and across the state, east, middle and west tennessee are saying, those aren't real solutions. we need gbetter solutions the folks putting forth those legislations, not listening to those coming to, not listening. the mother of my classmate who was murdered earlier this year, those folks are not being listened to. when the vote comes to expelling me and my colleagues, this legislature will expel us not for committing an actual crime, as the last two folks who have been expelled have done, but for breaking a house decorum rule. >> that's unbelievable tennessee state representative justin pearson. >> thank you. >> thank you so much for being -- >> we got it. >> thank you so much for being here good luck. >> yeah. >> mika, it is crazy

first of all, like willie said, it is grotesque they would compare high school kids coming to ask for legislation, for gun safety legislation, so they could go to school and learn and be safer, it's grotesque that the speaker in tennessee would compare that to a riot where people have been sent to jail for beating the hell out of cops with american flags. for defecate ing in the people' house. for having a full-blown right to overturn an election they're comparing high school students. >> who just don't want to die at school jen palmieri, this is where the country is for the most part. >> protecting kids. >> it's not a -- decorum was broken, and it is fair to say

decorum was broken inside the statehouse it's not like it was broken for a white nationalist parade they are with these kids who are getting killed in school. >> jen, i served in a legislative body you don't expel people because they break decorum they gavel you down. >> there are things to do. >> they tell you to stop if you don't, you're taken from the floor by the sergeant in arms that's it. >> there's so much wrapped up here about the state of democracy in this one story. first of all, you see people are at a breaking point it you saw it in 2018 five years ago now with parkland that's where march for our lives started, the kids that rose up there in protest last month, we saw it in michigan michigan state had a school shooting michigan state students rallied behind in the capital in michigan they were able to pass gun safety laws in response to that. i now you see it in tennessee, a conservative state people are just -- students, parents, all of us are at a

breaking point inside the chamchamber, suppres democracy. again, republicans trying to under -- to thwart democracy by removing three democratically elected representatives who, by the way, represent some of tennessee's biggest cities you know, they don't want to -- of course, this is what they want us to talk about. they want us to talk about the possess opposed to putting pressure on them to pass something that would respond to the school shootings these kids are not going away. tennessee is reacting. this is a conservative place, but you see country music singers, a lot of people speaking out to demand action. it is going to keep happening everywhere. >> you know, guys, the news channel 5 in nashville pointed out to speaker sexton, who is talking about expelling the mem members, 200,000 people in tennessee are without repres representation you're overturning the vote, effectively. he said, quote, well, their actions made that happen

saying, maybe they don't have representatives if they behave like this. >> so what they don't understand is that these kids aren't protesting the color of their school uniforms. >> right. >> they're scared for their lives. so this isn't -- every day they go to school across the country, children go to school scared for their lives parents send their kids to school, scared they won't come back. it's not like this issue is going away it's like republicans and donald tr trump. they don't see what is coming down the pike. a pass shooting is coming to a town near you, no matter where you are. >> number one cause of death for children in the united states is guns yes, whether you are a republican representing a district in tennessee or a democrat representing a seat in tennessee, you have kids who are worried when they go to school. >> yeah. >> i think they do understand it, which makes this move even more confounding coming up, we have house speaker kevin mccarthy hosting the president of taiwan, which,

of course, drew condemnation from china we'll have a live report from beijing straight ahead. plus, economic tensions are also training u.s.-china relations, despite western media reports of a faltering economy steve rattner says china is prospering in ways the u.s. should envy. he joins us with charts on that. "morning joe" will be right ck i'm bill lockwood, current caretaker and owner. when covid hit, we had some challenges like a lot of businesses did. i heard about the payroll tax refund, it allowed us to keep the amount of people that we needed and the people that have been here taking care of us. see if your business may qualify. go to getrefunds.com. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch.

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wow. beautiful shot of new york city. might be a rainy day, but the sun peeking over the clouds is simply beautiful it is 15 toward the top of the hour there was a rare, historic meeting yesterday between house speaker kevin mccarthy and taiwan's president on home soil. andrea mitchell has the latest. >> reporter: despite threats from china, house speaker kevin

mccarthy in a bipartisan delegation at the reagan library in california, side by side with taiwan's president tsai ing-wen, in a show of support. >> our bond is stronger now than at any point in my lifetime. >> today, the peace we have maintained and the democracy which hwe've worked hard to build, with facing unprecedented challenges >> reporter: at her suggestion, they're meeting in the u.s., less provocative than the speaker's original plan to go to taiwan, as then speaker pelosi did in august. that sparked a furious barrage from china of missiles over the self-governing island that china declares its territory bayeijing saying the meeting undermines china's sovereignty. >> this is a bipartisan meeting of members of congress who are honored to spend some time with you. >> reporter: tensions between the u.s. and china already high, including over china's spy balloon, which nbc news reported exclusively was picking up

electronic signals intelligence while making passes over sensitive u.s. military sites, before the u.s. finally shot it down off the atlantic coast. do you worry that meeting with president tsai in the united states is going to further escalate the tensions? >> no, it shouldn't by any means. i'll sit down with president tsai what would be a worse situation is a lack of communication. >> reporter: still looming, u.s. intelligence officials say china is likely to invade taiwan in the next five years. >> andrea mitchell reporting for us overnight, michael mccaul and lawmakers did land in taiwan for a three-day visit. saying it would not be intimidated by china's saber rattling joining us now, economic analyst steve rattner. and president on the council of foreign relations, richard haass. richard, a visit by the taiwanese president to the

reagan library yesterday with speaker mccarthy, it was bipartisan decent fldiplomacy by the speakr >> decent by everybody the idea that the speaker didn't go to taiwan but, instead, a agreed to meet the president of taiwan here, already good. this was just a transit on her part it's heavily choreographed wasn't quote, unquote, a visit she didn't meet with administration officials or give a speech it was a press conference. it was all within the parameters of the u.s.-taiwan-china understandings you also have a situation where the mainland doesn't want a crisis right now while president tsai, who is here, the leader of the other party in taiwan was in beijing they didn't want to do something big and nasty because they don't want to provoke a domestic reaction in taiwan you have elections in taiwan in less than a year, presidential ele elections. everybody, for various reasons, was on their best behavior and

it was successful, subtle diplomacy. >> delicate choreography going on steve, you're back from beijing. what is the view from china? >> among the business community, the people i met, is one of nervousness. for all the calmness that richard described around the visit, tensions are nonetheless elevated from where they had been everybody in china recognizes that to move against taiwan risks some major, major confrontation, whatever is beginning to come of it. everywhere you go in china, they are talking about taiwan and what is going to happen in taiwan it is as much a problem for them as it is for us, in a way. >> richard, talk about the selective outrage from china we've talked about how sometimes speakers will go there there won't be huge protests other times, when nancy pelosi went, there was a huge protest i can tell you, i went when they

had their first inauguration of, i believe it was in '96/'97, with a huge delegation not a lot of protests. so why is there -- i understand china is always going to oppose american politicians going over to taiwan, but why the selective outrage? why do they make a big deal sometimes but not other times? >> it all depends upon context, where we are in the taiwan political cycle. where we are in the overall u.s. and chinese relationship whether there is a precedent particularly being set might also depend on domestic politics on the mainland here, again, you know, i think everybody -- all my recent meetings with chinese officials, joe, suggest to me they are not looking for an escalation in tensions right now things have gotten as bad as they've gotten in the modern era. the balloon incident punctuated it we don't really have high-level diplomacy anymore.

the question is when or if the secretary of state can visit there. china is worried about some of the economic implications, further deterioration in relations. right now, what the mainland wants is a certain calming interestingly enough, so does the administration i don't think we're in a moment of improvement in u.s.-chinese relations to any significant degree, but i think both sides may be looking for something of a floor, since neither side is looking for a bad situation to get demonstrably worse much less a crisis or incident. >> let's go to beltwaijing and i mackey frayer. good evening there in beijing. what has been the reaction there so far what are you hearing on the ground from the chinese government, from president xi, about this visit from president tsai to the united states? >> reporter: the threats of retaliation started days before the meeting actually happened. those words didn't change today, but there weren't any actions

that were matched to it. the official reaction so far appears to be one of restraint that you've been discussing. also, kind of scoffing at the idea that there would be a massive military response, and hinting that beijing might be playing with a different playbook it is crucial to widen out to everything else that was happening here today it was like a diplomatic traffic jam. you had the foreign ministers of saudi arabia and iran shaking hands weeki s after the landmark deal to establish diplomatic ties down the road here, xi jinping is hosting the french president, emmanuel macron, as well as the european commission president, for a three-day visit. given the number of high-profile visitors that have come through here in the past few weeks ago, the leaders of germany, spain, brazil, we had the foreign ministers of japan and new

zealand, it shows how several countries are approaching beijing differently than the u.s. these days. with macron, he's going to have six hours of private meeting time with xi jinping that is not insignificant. he wants to use that time to try to convince xi to use his clout to influence pvladimir putin on the war in ukraine that's what has been striking to me over the past several weeks, is to see china on this diplomatic tear of sorts also, how we now see this curious crossover of policies toward ukraine and policies toward china in several countries, now almost intertwined. at a time when china is trying to position itself as more of a global player. that brings us back to the top of the conversation and the reaction to taiwan it's probably why it is going to be muted not saying that something won't happen in the days or weeks to

come, but for today, beijing appeared to not want to upstage itself with all of these meetings and all these visits happening, certainly no coincidence. >> busy in beijing janis mackey frayer, thank you, as always, for your reporting. richard, president macron is the latest to try to twist the arm to the extent he can of president president xi and putin with ukraine. can anyone get to vladimir putin, through president xi or otherwise, on the issue of of ukraine? >> there's no evidence there's no evidence that the chinese leaned on him. when i criticized a chinese official, he laughed and said, have you tried to per tsuade vladimir putin i don't think he got far the chinese want to have better economic ties with europe.

they also are worried ability t about the europeans joining the americans. steve will probably talk about the economic sanctions they're trying to be careful yeah, the chinese love the idea, to use the cliche soft power, i think they kind of like the idea they're appearing diplomatic i think that plays into xi jinping's prestige at home and internationally. it's all, at least for the time being, things are lining up in a fairly healthy direction. >> you gave us a good ausegue to steve rattner, who moved to the wall >> not the great wall. >> no, no, no. it is pretty great look at that thing steve, tell us what you found over there in terms of the chinese keconomy. >> what i found there is an economy that is doing better than perhaps if you read the western press, you might think i'm going to compare china to the u.s. and give you a sense of the perspective. look at projected growth this year china is expected to grow at something over 5%, down from the 7% it's grown in the past.

5% compares favorably to the chinese for our 1.5% on inflation, we're battling inflation around 6%. their inflation is around 1%, a number we'd also love to see what was interesting to me, given how strong the economy is in many ways, unemployment is higher in china than it is in the u.s. 5% versus our 3.6% but it is largely for an interesting reason, which is very high unemployment, 18% unemployment among young chinese. that is, in part, because of education, actually. surprisingly, they are pouring over 4 million chinese a year into the job market with a bachelor's degree. more impressive, 1.4 million of them have a s.t.e.m., a technology or engineering degree, compared to our 1.6 and only 440,000 we are building the workforce of the future, they just need to

get them employed as the economy moves to higher value things we talked about the trade war. let's look at what the trade war means. this is one of the things that is very worrisome to the chinese, something i heard a lot about while in china why is this going on how do we bring it to an end there actually is an impact of the tariffs that were put in by president trump. you can see it in the numbers. the most highly tariffed goods, semiconductors and i.t. equipment, so forth, you can see the drop in the amount of those imports coming into the united states fairly significant 30% drop, almost 30% then you can see the stuff that's taxed at 7.5%, mostly food and agricultural things, also dropping but by not as much, not surprisingly then everything else we continue to increase. everything else is up 30% from where it was in 2017 our dependence, our involvement with china on an import level is not going oiaway

imports are roughly where they were at the beginning. it's something you hear a lot about from companies, particularly the softer point that maybe americans are going to be more reluctant to buy from china because of all the tension. look, we have to remember, there is a cost to the tariffs, which is to say, imported goods cost more you can see when the tariffs were on, the imported goods went 5% higher than what it was before the cost of non-tariffed goods continued to go down american people do pay a price for those tariffs. >> let's look at the third chart, which is fascinating, steve. it goes to population, aging and immigration. amazing stat you have, which is, by the end of this century, the chinese population will decline by almost half >> yeah. actually, there are interesting implications for our policy and how we operate china has had an up and down involvement with demographics. in the early years of the chinese regime and all the instability, they had a low

birthrate. then they had their version of the baby boom. then they went to the one child policy now, they're back to encouraging population for reasons i'll get to in a second you can see if you compare the demographically china to the u.s., china has a big bubble of sort of middle-aged chinese working their way through the system, moving into retirement, and all the costs associated with that. then they have a smaller group of people actually coming into the prime working years. that creates another set of problems when you put it all together, the projections for chinese population are pretty staggering, as you said, willie. it's about 1.4 billion now by the year 2100, because of a declining birthrate, not below replacement rate, they'll be down to 770 million chinese, absent some other action the u.s. faces a similar situation, which is declining population, also we have peaked, as well, or are

close to peaking the difference between china and the u.s. is immigration. we bring in a million immigrants a year, which is projected to keep our population stable china does not there's virtually no immigrants into china it is a monoethnic culture you can see how immigration can make a difference in the prospects of these countries. >> the immigration and population number is stunning, actually steve rattner at the great wall of 30 rock thanks so much we appreciate it richard haass, before you go, you sat down and said we have just over an hour before -- and we didn't know what it was you reminded us? >> the masters. >> yes. >> tee off just after 8:00 this morning. 87th masters golf is the main story the substory is tension between the pga tour and the saudi-supported liv tour we'll have to see how it plays out. >> got any favorites scottie scheffler still looks great. won last year. >> rory mcilroy. masters is the only major tournament he hasn't won, to complete the sweep

there's that my personal favorite, cam young. cameron young. played from scarborough, new york you may have heard of it used to be there >> the tour is just praying no one from the liv tour wins the masters. >> cameron smith is the most likely the only top ten golfer in the world, the young man cam smith that'd be an awkward moment. >> yes well, one hour from now, the first golfers tee off. richard haass, i know you have to get home and get in front of the tv for the next four days. >> exactly. >> we'll let you go. mika it is exactly the top of the hour following his arraignment in a manhattan courtroom, former president donald trump returned to mar-a-lago and delivered critical remarks on district attorney alvin bragg and the judge hearing the case this as trump faces a setback in another legal investigation surrounding january 6th. nbc's garrett haake has the

la latest. >> reporter: 24 hours after a former president trump was arraigned in court for the first time, former president trump's attorneys blasting the 34 felony charges against him, of falsifying business records. >> there's no new evidence this case is going to fall on its merits, on legal challenges, well before we get to a jury. >> reporter: hours after receiving a warning from the judge against inflammatory rhetoric that could incite violence, mr. trump taking rhetorical aim at both d.a. alvin bragg -- >> the criminal is the district attorney because he illegally leaked massive amounts of grand jury information >> reporter: -- and the judge himself. >> i have a trump hating judge with a trump hating wife and family, whose daughter worked for kamala harris. >> reporter: the judge's daughter has worked in democratic politics, including for a firm that worked for then candidates harris and biden in 2020 though there's no evidence she still works for a biden political operation. two sources tell nbc news that judge merchan and d.a. bragg

have been receiving extra security. >> no one is suggesting that anything should happen to the judge or his family. president trump's comments didn't incite violence. >> reporter: former president trump is also facing a legal setback in another case. with former vice president pence deciding not to repeal a decision requiring him to testify to a grand jury about any potentially illegal acts mr. trump may have committed surrounding january 6th. as that legal fight looms, republicans are rushing to mr. trump's defense over the manhattan chargesdemocrat democratic d.a. >> people think it is even more political than we thought beforehand >> reporter: even the former president's most consistent republican critic in washington, utah senator mitt romney, saying in a statement while he believes mr. trump is unfit for office, quote, the new york prosecutor stretched to reach felony criminal charges in order to fit a political agenda bragg defending his case tuesday. >> these are felony crimes in new york state, no matter who

you are. we cannot and will not normalize serious criminal conduct >> all right jennifer palmieri is still with us joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. and nbc news legal analyst, andrew weissmann andrew, we haven't talked to you since this all went down i'm curious what your thoughts are with the day to really marinate on this also, i'm wondering if, like me, you agree that donald trump's life, like it or not, has changed. he has been accused. he's been arraigned. accused of 34 felony counts. as a result, everything he does now is under the microscope. he can't just be trump anymore and riff and threaten and defame people without potential

consequences. >> he is still doing it. >> we are seeing now and we will continue to see, particularly if there are additional charges in georgia and federally, that there is a clash between trump the politician and his legal interests. because now, he is not the former president trump he is defendant trump. he is out on bail. that means that a judge does have the power to curtail, certainly, any sort of incitement to violence that he engages in the d.a. could also charge him if he continues to do things like post photos with him and a bat and a picture of the d.a so anything that approaches that is going to be subject to judges overseeing him i have to say, if he is federally charged, it is a general that all judges take

that, i think, more seriously and have a few more tools to curtail that kind of conduct >> understanding he's running for president, also that a lot of the calculations he made on how early he'd run for president was because he anticipated being indicted and wanted to use that against any case, understanding that he's got first amendment rights and political speech is the most protected right, i'm wondering, how much latitude is this judge going to give donald trump, to continue insulting the judge, his family, the d.a., whipping up -- >> scaring witnesses. >> -- whipping up hatred, certainly among his base, and causing the judge and d.a. to have to get security i mean, andrew, at what point does he find him in contempt >> so i think there are two things to separate one is talking about the case, and the other is language that

is inciting or imploring people or suggesting violence as jen probably can say, you can run for office and not incite violence there is no sort of concern, i would think, about your first amendment rights in terms of running for office and talking about policies, or even saying you're innocent of these charges and they shouldn't have been brought. none of that means that you have a right to incite violence it shouldn't imp kate in implics decision to be a candidate or sway who we want to vote for i'm confident that judge merchan, who is overseeing the case in new york, will see it this way it's like having a 2-year-old, where you have incremental punishment that is the reason that we had the judge at the arraignment, which is very unusual. at that stage, admonishing both

sides, though only one side was doing it, to curtail the kind of rhetoric and speech that they've been engaged in. at some point, that will become an order from the court. the reason that is relevant is if you violate a court order, there are all sorts of sanctions that can be imposed, not just fines but it can also include actually being jailed or prohibited from making inflammatory remarks in public speeches or social media >> despite that warning from the judge, of course, donald trump and his family members have sf spent the last two days going after the judge, the judge's family and everything else another story for you, andrew former vice president mike pence saying he will not fight a subpoena to appear before jack smith and the special counsel around the january 6th investigation. he was going to have to show up anyway, so maybe that is ceremonial he had said he wasn't going to show up initially. what is the significance of that, and what do you expect

jack smith wants to know from mike pence >> huge development for jack smith. both in terms of the so-called january 6th investigation, even with respect to the mar-a-lago case mike pence can talk to the kind of training and what he was told about what documents he could take and not take. in fact, he has made some suggestion that, you know, he was told exactly what the rules of the road were, which would not be a good development for the former president i think one of the most important things that mike pence can testify to is with respect to a tweet that the former president issued on january 5th, one day before january 6th, where the president said that the vice president agreed with him, donald trump, that the vice president had the power not to certify the election, not to count the votes. it seems to me that the vice

president is on record, in his book at least, on his book tour, saying that is not true. why is that relevant if you can show that the president of the united states was intentionally lying on january 5th, that it was a way to foment what happened on january 6th, it is pretty much game over. this is a case that's going to involve intent and what the then president thought. this is something that the vice president will have direct knowledge of, that what was being said by the president on january 5th was not true. >> andrew, before you go, another difference for donald trump's reality is, one expert earlier this week said, you know, if his rhetoric and his words become -- if they influence witnesses, if they influence the case and they become dangerous, the prosecution could ask the judge to move the case up.

has that been done before? is that a possibility you see here >> it could be done. i don't think that would be the likely outcome of doing that i think a more likely outcome would be an order from the court as to what donald trump could or could not say and what he could or could not do. as i said, it could also lead to fines and, if it continues after that, he could actually be in jail pending trial in other words, donald trump, for the first time in his life, is actually not in control here. the judge is in control. >> right yup, he has got to answer. nbc news legal analyst andrew weis weissmann. thank you very much. so the news cycle this week has been dominated by the chaos surrounding former president donald trump, and it just might be how the white house wants it. peter baker and michael shear write for "the new york times,"

quote, no commander in chief is, in more than a century, has been eclipsed in the public eye by the leader he succeeded the way mr. biden has at times now, with the first criminal prosecution of a former president in american history, it will be that much harder to command the national conversation yet, it is a contrast that mr. biden's team hopes will eventually benefit him to the extent that the remainder of mr. biden's term is a split screen between the 45th and the 46th presidents. white house officials are willing to live with less airtime if it means their president is seen to be focusing on manufacturing health care and climate change, while the other one is seen focusing on pretrial motions, hostile witnesses and records of hush money paid to a porn star. they do offer this warning, however. anti-chaos may be appealing to voters exhausted by trumpian turmoil, but it has not

historically been a ratings draw jen, i think this is right i think the biden white house has a lot of opportunities here. like, while all this has been going on, he's been working. he's got a will olot of points e board. having said that, it does feed into trump's base. for him to cast himself as a vi victim, and i'm wondering if your advice would be to, like, rest on that >> no, you can't you have to be -- i think they have an opportunity here to be the anti-chaos president i think that in terms of trump trying to -- trump is reaching out to his base. he is shoring up his base. i don't think he is winning over any new voters i would be concerned about the lack of coverage you have to work extra hard to get -- like, this week, the presidents was in minnesota doing an infrastructure event. there's a lot on the table they can implement from the

infrastructure bill, the chips bill, the semiconductor plants being built. a lot of ways to show, and this is important, that government is working, that it is responding to the needs of the country, that things are getting done it is hard to break through. you're going to have to use social media you have to make a lot of content available to try to reach people where they are. trump will dominate the sort of traditional earned media news spaces but it is a real ly important contrast to make you have to work hard to get it to break through. >> also, jen, there's an underestimation of the president's calmness and his, for lack of a better phrase, his maturity >> yeah. >> he's intent, eddie, on doing the job. i mean, every sense you get from the presidency, from president biden's presidency, he's intent on doing the job each and every day. when you consider what he has on his plate, it's a lot more important to the globe, to global peace, to the global

conduct. the war in ukraine, taking care of that. keeping nato together. we just saw our new member of nato, finland, coming in all of that is derivative of the fact that president biden has been on this job, presiding over an economy that fluctuates in america. he's doing the job. >> competency, responsibility, it matters i'm worried about breaking through. he already has a tough time with young voters while the arraignment was happening, we cut to it. i was watching my students they were looking like, this is just another moment. they were engaged, but they were just kind of like, then they started talking about politics biden didn't come out well this is a self-selective class this is my class

i'm interested in the chaos. his numbers were already shaky among this demographic how does he get their attention as we come to the next election? i'm worried about that. >> is it him or just politics in general? >> it is politics in general, and it is him. whether or not he is up to responding to the moment >> what are they missing from him, specifically? what are they saying >> what they were saying, in an interesting sort of way, was he doesn't seem to have the fire we need to speak to what is in front of us there is a moment in the conversation where we were around this table, and they were like, i don't know what the common good is i don't know what it'd mean to enter into that. princeton, pathways to the top 1% in ways but they were asking the question in an interesting way whether or not this 80-year-old man had the stuff to respond to

what they were seeing in their lives. how does he break through? >> that's going to -- >> that's -- >> go ahead, jen. >> sorry, mika that is -- you can't just rely on -- it's not like when i worked for clinton in the '90s get a package together by :00 p and it'll break through to 60 million people you have to, with the limited staff a white house has, and if you're not controversial, you're not going to break through it'll require money. it'll require the democratic party spending money on behalf of the president to get the messages to break through and to, you know, have students to see and meet them where we are we saw the students in tennessee. we saw they're aligned with president biden on guns. they're aligned with president biden on a lot of issues, but you have to work very hard it will require outside spending to get it so that people can hear it. it is -- you know, that's the

toughest part about being the white house communications director how do you actually get something to be -- not having him say something great or be in the same place that the american people are, even where young people are it's how do you reach them >> mika, the president has been out on the road. i think the white house would say he's been out ttouting his agenda, what they've been able to do the first couple years to jen's point, it is difficult to break through. >> he promised he'd be more boring in many ways, he has. >> yeah. >> that has been -- he meant that in a good way he is the counter to the chaos of a president that is -- a former president that is being arraigned and is now under a judge's order and is accused of crimes and the part that's not even being mentioned as a problem, the part that is being brushed over by members of the republican evang evangelicals, this has to do

with hush money payments to playboy bunnies and porn stars so bide sen is a perfect contra. eddie, you touched on something very interesting does the person have the fire in his eyes to fight? well, if you look at biden's record, and that'll be the challenge of breaking through, is making sure those points on the board are repeated again and again and again. katty kay, it also means moving forward. what is important to this president? ukraine and what it means to the safety of the world. that's a tough one to communicate to busy americans who are worried about kitchen table issues also, so importantto break through on where biden stands on guns and abortion. i think that is going to be the challenge for the campaign, the biden campaign for 2024, if he chooses to run again >> yeah, i mean, clearly, the trump campaign is very happy with the amount of air time they

got this week. i've been sent photos from inside mar-a-lago, you know, with all the screens tuned to his event. they said, this is what total dominance looks like they feel they're getting all the air time they need and they want the challenge now is for president biden. when he goes to places around the country and manages to talk about his record, it does get picked up in local news. if you make repeated visits to michigan, to wisconsin, to pennsylvania, talking specifically about how the inflation reduction act or the chips act has actually done things in those communities, then you do have a chance to appear in local media, even if it is not appearing on 24-hours, breathlessly on cable television you can move the needle. remember, it's tiny numbers that are going to make the difference here you just have to move the needle by tiny numbers. the problem for the president, in a sense, going forward, though, looking at the next few years, is there's not very much he can do.

he's done what he has on climate. i've heard grumblings among younger voters with the drilling in the arctic. he did the climate act, but now we don't like the drilling on abortion, it's really up to states to counteract the supreme court. you know, it is not easy the white house feels trump is their best bet, but it is not an easy pass for him to get the message out and show he can do more when he is blocked by congress. >> exactly one more news story before break. it appears fox news founder rupert murdoch will have to give live testimony in dominion's lawsuit against the network. the voting systems company would have to issue subpoenas to force the testimonies of murdoch, his

son and former house speaker paul ryan, who is a board member once that happens, the judge told both sides he'd compel the witnesses to appear in court several of fox's top hosts are also expected to testify in the $1.6 billion defamation lawsuit. dominion claims fox news damaged its reputation by promoting false claims it rigs the 2020 election by flipping millions of donald trump votes to donald trump. the jury trial is set to start in 11 days still ahead on "morning joe," the latest from ukraine as president zelenskyy gets a hero's welcome during a visit to poland we'll look at his efforts to shore up alliances amid the ongoing war with russia. plus, leadership made simple but not easy admiral william mccraven joins us with his new book of advice

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i think i've got it! doggy-paddle! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ welcome back to "morning joe. 7:26 on a thursday morning ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy made his first official state visit to poland yesterday, shoring up relations between the two countries amid russia's ongoing invasion of his country. zelenskyy and the polish leader signed an agreement for more arms and ambition. poland strongly backed ukraine's quick entry into nato, but the alliance remains divided on how to approach that accelerated bid. joining us now, retired navy admiral william mccraven, the author of the book, "the wisdom of the bullfrog, leadership made simple but not easy. bullfrog is an hon rorific title

given to the navy s.e.a.l. serving the longest on active duty me had 34 years of service in the s.e.a.l.s and took over special operations command good to see you. >> thanks. >> tell us about the title, "the wisdom of the bullfrog." i had to know what wisdom a bullfrog had. >> the bullfrog is the title ginn to the longest serving navy s.e.a.l. on active beauty. as navy s.e.a.l.s, we're first frog men from our world war ii routes when you are the longest serving frog man, you are the bullfrog. >> makes sense. >> yeah. >> how do you apply the wisdom of a bullfrog? a man like you, who has acompished so much in his personal and professional life, what can the rest of us take away >> i lay out 18 lessons. they're mottos and creeds that the military has used for thousands of years they really guide leaders during challenging times. we've got a saying in the

s.e.a.l.s, the only easy day was yesterday. all your days are beginning to be hard as a leader. when you come into work, whether you're at a hamburger joint or if you're the ce oo, you have to bring it that's expected of leaders, to do the hard work. >> mike? >> admiral, courage, honor, these are all important qualities in anyone, certainly in a navy s.e.a.l. could you speak to the basis of all of this, character the importance of character. >> as you know, it is the first chapter in the book. ives i've always said, there are a lot of captains of industry who made billions of dollars and changed the world. at the end of the day, the rank and file are looking for leaders with character leaders that are trustworthy, that are honest, that respect people that is the foundation of every great leader i have ever worked with now, we're all human we all have our mistakes at the end of the day, the person you work for needs to be

trustworthy, or do you trust them with your money, do you trust them with your life? do you trust them with your job? so this sense of trust fwo do you trust them with your job? so this sense of trust fthin trustworthiness, fairness, respect, honestly, absolutely crucial. >> admiral, it seems like today, we're running deficits in leadership this book is desperately needed. explain to me this chapter, "shepherds should smell like the sheep. help me with that. >> this is actually one of the few quotes that isn't a military quote. it's from pope francis he said a shepherd should smell like his sheep if you are a leader, you need to be out with the men and women that you are leading you need to be on the factory line you need to be in their cubicles you need to be in the fox hole, so to speak. you need to smell like the people that you're leading, or you will have a tough time making the right decisions on their behalf so get out of your office. get around to the men and women that you work for and that you serve. you'll be a much better leader. >> admiral, you write about

risks in this book calculated risk. >> right. >> in terms of the bin laden raid, which you orchestrated with the help of some of the other navy s.e.a.l.s and special operations guys. you talk about being prepared for a risk this isn't shooting from the hip risk this is a calculate and had prepared risk. >> what people miss is, when you see the movies about navy s.e.a.l.s or special operations, you see the sexy part. three-quarters of the time is spent planning and rehearsing. yes, the mission is going to have risk. everything in life that you're doing that is a great leap forward is going to have risk. you need to reduce that risk to a manageable level by planning, by preparing that's what you have to do if you want to be successful. >> a lot of white board risk f >> right. >> i was joking with the admiral. his best-selling book, "make your bed," which you can start the day by accomplishing a small task, is useful when you have a 13-year-old son. you say, the guy who got bin

laden wants you to make your bed. >> you have to listen. >> i have taken by that book after reading it, i had a chance to talk to the admiral he reminded me, he said, you know, we met back in 2000. >> right. >> you were a member of congress i was escorting you around korukand said, "oh, my god, was i okay? >> you were great. >> he said i did not embarrass myself, so that was good >> yeah. >> so there's a line from a recent interview. >> love it. >> i relate to it very well. i know mika said she did, too. >> as do i, yeah. >> i was never the smartest guy in the room, so it was easy for me to write this book on leadership from that point of view it's so interesting. rarely the people that rise are the smartest people in the room. i'm just wondering what you've seen, what this book tells us about what separates out the leaders, even if they aren't the

smartest, even if they aren't the fastest, the swiftest, the tallest, the strongest you wrote about this some, of course, about some guys getting through s.e.a.l.s training camp in "make your bed. sometimes it wasn't the swiftest, strongest or fastest what separates the leaders from the rest of the pack, including the smartest guys and women in the room >> well, joe, to your point, i mean, it helps to be the smartest man or woman in the room, but that was never the case with me so, you know, what you hope as a leader is that you are a servant leader at the end of the day, your job as a leader is to make sure the men and women that are working for you have the right resources, the right training, and you give them the latitude to do the job. but then you have to hold them accountable. as a leader, as was mentioned earlier, the first and foremost quality you need to have honestd this sense of trustworthiness. the other thing i'd offer is

hard work. nothing makes up for whatever shortfalls you might have better than hard work come in early. work long days stay late. come in on the weekend do whatever you have to do to make your team successful. as a leader, it is never about you. it's about the team that accomplishes the task. >> as i've always said to people, hard work erases a multitude of sins and a multitude of stupid. i found that it actually does. i want to touch on something that you said. you talked about servant leadership you can go back to the gospels and jesus talks about the last shall be first, the first shall be last. >> right. >> his disciples were horrified when he got on his knees and started washing their -- >> feet. >> -- feet you talked about shepherds smelling like the sheep. talk more about that how do ceos, how do mid-level managers, how do other people, how do they take this on board in their everyday life

>> you know, again, in the time that i served in the navy, when i came in in the mid '70s, well, 1977 is when i was commissioned, the navy was different than it is knew. we went through -- we, not just the navy, but army, navy, air force, marine corps, went through this transition of making sure leaders understood, your job as a leader was to make the team successful. again, it isn't about you. it's not about your promotion. it's not about your compensation it is about whether or not you are inspiring and motivating an managing the team to be successful this is the nature of servant leadership if you apply this to every task, you'll find the organization gets stronger, and you're not ending up building a house of cards. the problem that happens a lot of times is leaders take off, again, they may be incredibly smart, may make billions in the industry, but if they are not men and women of good character, if they are not trustworthy, eventually, that organization they build kind of turns out to be a house of cards and it collapses. >> admiral, we started the conversation talking about

ukraine. i just wondered in the context of leadership what you make of president zelenskyy. a man coming out of the world of comedy, got into politicians almost by chance, and certainly got into the role of military leader almost by chance. how he has done the transition from political leader to military leader. i can't imagine that is an easy transition to make for every president of every country >> yeah, you know, i think he is a phenomenal wartime leader. he's got the three characteristics every wartime leader needs first, you have to be courageous as you may recall, early on in the war, we offered him a ride out. he said, "i don't need a ride out. i need more ammunition." i mean, it's one of the great lines, i think, in modern history, in terms of combat leadership the second thing you have to have is stamina. spending time in a war zone, he's probably getting four hours of sleep a night it is tough being a leader the final thing you have to do well is communicate and inspire the men and women around you he has done that exceptionally

well >> admiral, i want to end by talking about the state of our military today there are a lot of republicans that, for some reason, have been -- my old party has been criticizing the state of the military, which seems to be more qualified and strong than ever before but you talked about being commissioned in 1977 it was post vietnam. recruitment was down the quality, i talked to a lot of retired generals and admirals who told me the quality wasn't great between '75 and '80. you, of course, a great exception to that rule now, recruitment is down again when i talk to recruiters, when i talk to people who were concerned about this, they say, a large part of that is that you do have political parties that are talking down our military. saying it is woke. saying it is weak. wishing that we could be more like the russian military. fir first of all --

[ laughter ] >> yeah, i know. it is hurting recruiting denigrating the men and women of the armed forces is hurting recruiting what do you believe the state of the united states military is right now, and do you believe we'll get through this do you believe recruiting will go back up soon? >> yeah, let me make it crystal clear. this is the finest military in the history of the world and i think you could go back and take a look at the roman legions. look at any organization in the history of the world you're going to find today's military, with the quality of the men and women we have, with the education they have, the training they have, with the equipment they have, this is a remarkable military. and i tell folks, joe, that i am the biggest fan of the millenials and the gen-z that you'll ever meet this narrative out there that, somehow, they are these kind of soft, entitled little snowflakes, i'm quick to point

out, then you've never seen them in a fire fight in iraq or afghanistan, or going to school at the university of texas, trying to make a better life for themselves and their family. these are remarkable young men and women. they signed up, you know, some of them after 9/11, some today, coming in, knowing that the world was chaotic, knowing they'd have to sacrifice, they and their families i spent a lot of time with today's military they're as good as they come. >> admiral, you spend a lot of time today with students coming from transitioning from military leadership to civilian leaderships, millenials, gen-z, how do you find you can take the lessons from the military to inspire, recruit young students, you know, particularly -- not to go into careers in the military, but just to gain these leadership skills? >> i'm glad you asked. the point of the book, "the wisdom of the bullfrog," is not military leadership. these principles will apply, again, whether you're in the private sector, in the corporate

world, wherever you are, the leadership principles will apply. what i found in dealing with young students is, they still want good leadership yes, they're different than the baby boomers yes, they're different than some of the other generations but you still want leaders that have integrity, that have character, that are trustworthy, that will work hard, that will work on your behalf, that respect you. everybody wants those kind of leaders. that's no different today with the younger generation >> admiral, there are people who read your books and listen to you speak and watch the way you lead and look at the scope of your life and say, now, that's the kind of good we need in charge do you have any interest i know i'm not the first to ask you this any interest in the world of politics >> i've been married 44 years. if i want to make it to 45, i probably have to stay in austin. >> it's a hard no. >> that is not a no. that is not a no. >> jen, you see that another way. >> yeah. >> we'll keep the conversation

e open admiral, thank you "the wisdom of the bullfrog," retired admiral, william mccraven appreciate it, and your service to the country. the baltimore orioles opened the season against the red sox they host the yankees this weekend. chief executive john angelos bravely wades into our sea of yankees and red sox fans next on "morning joe." is couple will share a perfect moment. (woman) is that? oh wow! but we got to sell our houses! (vo) don't worry. sell and buy in one move when you start with opendoor. (woman) yes! (vo) close in a matter of days. start with an all cash offer at opendoor dot com

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it's what grayson dreamed all offseason, being in the big leagues. his dad, gilbert, built the field in their backyard so his young son, back in his t-ball days, could practice this. this family is built from the ground up when it comes to realizing just how special today is in their home state, hours away from where he trains and calls home grayson rodriguez, the son of gilbert, is a major leaguer. >> that is such a great moment that's last night. a moment between one of baseball's top prospers, ori ols

starting pitcher, rodriguez. the latest highly touted play confplayer to arrive in babaltimore 52 wins in 2021 to 83 wins one year later joining us now with more on what's going on at camden yoards ceo and cahairman. you have a lot of yankees and red sox fans, so hopefully you can tolerate us. we'll agree, what you're doing in baltimore is extraordinary, with great young players the catcher is one of the best players in the game already. how have you done it >> you know, last thursday, i was at fenway. now the yankees and you guys are coming here. >> i know. >> i'm surrounded by big market teams with big budgets it's great to be here.

how have we done it? three years ago, we decided to go all in on a down to the studs reorganization, reboot of the company, of the ball club. in conjunction with that, i brought in mike alias, a baseball pro from the cardinals and the astros organization. mike's view of how one does baseball in the community and on the field is synonymous with my own. he's done a great job with his entire team, applying technology and turning our program 1780 degrees. >> john, your family owned and operated the orioles at least three decades now. i was there for the opening of camden yards years ago there's some concern about the future of the orioles in camden yards. could you clear that up? what is the future of the orioles remaining in camden yards? >> you know, there's actually zero concern from where i stand.

i've lived every day of my life in baltimore city, not just in the state but in the city, just a couple blocks away from camden yards. i just spent two days touring atlanta and our year-round complex, training complex in sarasota, florida, with governor wes moore. as the governor and i have been public about, we're going to renew our public-private partnership sometime this year i think both of us are very eager to do so. >> on another item of concern, i'm sure, of concern to you, of great concern to you, the tv deal has been going on for, it seems like, forever. what is the future of that potential conflict with mazen and the nationals? is it ever going to be cleared up >> you know, the issue with that matter really revolves around the expos being relocated from montreal to washington, d.c., in 2005 major league baseball, under the

last commissioner, had agreed to provide in perpetuity to the ori orioles. the expos were relocated 38 mile away from the park imagine if another team was 38 miles from fenway or ni yankee stadium. it'd be a problem. it is an assurance for the city of baltimore the issue is assuring for the city, the state of boston, the orioles, that there is permanent compensation from the league to the orioles. we are the only team that had that happen to us. >> from a strategic standpoint, i'm interested, you eluded to it in your first answer, how a team with a payroll like yours, which i called up the payrolls and i had to do a lot of scrolling down to get to yours how have you become competitive, remained competitive in this

environment reqwhere it used to, the teams with the money have the shot of winning, yankees, mets, dodgers, red sox you guys, the rays have shown this, too, the bluejays are really good, just in that division how do you do it in a climate where you're working with less money than the big teams >> yeah, you know, baseball is the most competitively unbalanced system. we're all working toward changing that. the system in football and basketball is focused on getting the small market teams that's why they have successful small market teams, giving them the same chance. in baseball, as you say, we don't. you mentioned tampa has done a wonderful job. not a lot of people know, we won more games than anyone in the american league from 2012 to 2016 i know all the yankees and red sox fans are looking that up far looking that up right now. we did that differently by spending money on payroll but it is unsustainable what you don't see in that list is you don't see the tens and

tens of millions of dollars invested in international sig signing bonuses, building a new academy, building the year round training complex in florida and investing very heavily in technology but a lot -- beyond that, they have introduced people who have come to us from the college ranks, from academia and who are really focused on how to do this best practice. it is about the culture and the investment you don't see in that list. >> mlb.com said you have the number one farm system in all of baseball i would say good luck but i don't mean it until monday when the yankees leave town and the a's come in. good luck starting next monday congratulations. chairman and ceo, john angelos,

thank you. >> thank you so much for having me. coming up, an update on a powerful storm system across the country with tornadoes to the midwest and the south. "morning joe" is coming right back >> look at the orioles this is an incredible story. been in last place, i think, since like 1924. orioles have won eight or nine in a row now look at that they are a couple games behind the blue jays and a couple games out of wild card contention. i have to see what's happening in baltimore the o's are always hot what's good for baltimore is good for america there's always a fresh deal on the subway app. like this one!

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a few minutes before the top of the hour. police in san francisco are investigating the stabbing death of bob lee, founder of cash app. nbc news national correspondent miguel almaguer has the details. >> reporter: the shocking and unsolved murder of bob lee, the tech titan stabbed to death tuesday in san francisco, has rattled the city and those who loved him. >> absolute shocking devastation. >> aiming to lift the world into a new era of financial freedom. >> reporter: best known for creating cash app, police say lee was attacked not far from the bay bridge at 2:35 a.m. tuesday. the area thought to be a safe part of the city is dotted with surveillance cameras. >> there's been a stabbing. >> reporter: before collapsing on a sidewalk lee screamed for help on the phone saying someone stabbed me according to

surveillance footage and records reviewed by the san francisco standard why nbc news has not been able to review the recording. after police arrived at the crime scene, the 43-year-old rushed to a hospital where he died coming as san francisco's homicide rate climbed in recent years. elon musk a critic of the city's saferty wrote violent crime in sf is horrific attackers are often released immediately after being caught. >> some of the public safety challenges are not different from challenges facing ore cities. >> reporter: the 43-year-old father of two who moved to miami more than a tech i con his wife saying bob lee was the most incredible and beautiful human being.

police have no suspects or motive for the murder. >> it is hard to imagine a world where you can't call bob and say, hey, i have this problem i'm thinking through he was an absolutely instrumental person in the tech industry. >> reporter: this morning the high profile murder of a tech pie near killed while walking the streets in a city under scrutiny for its safety. >> oh. nbc's miguel almaguer with that report we will be following that. still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump is pushing republicans in congress to defund federal law enforcement ahead of the government funding dead line this fall. we'll go live to capitol hill for reaction plus speaking to the u.s. ambassador to finland about the newly minted nato maybe. we are back in one minute.

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they're trying to drain the guy dry so i'm hoping people respond and send in small donations. small donations from a lot of people really help a candidate the people that give will vote and they will get the friends to vote i'm just asking people to help president trump as he is under siege. there is no reason in the world for him and his family to go this alone if you believe president trump is mistreated a way to help him is to send money to the campaign to fight back. >> no denial that there was a payoff to a porn star. i'm just -- he continued to plead for people to donate

i thought he was a billionaire. >> he raised like a couple hundred million off the big lie. all that. >> yeah. >> he keeps raising all of this money. hundreds of millions of dollars from middle class, working class americans. lindsey is there like a pitchman on the qvs network for like ginsu knives. >> cut through a shoe, joe. >> wow. >> it will all you need to do is a small monthly payment and donald trump -- it is really, again, bizarre that lindsey's just on this televangelist tour for a self proclaimed billionaire acting like this guy is going break. >> under arrest. >> every day the reason i know his heart wasn't in the last one, no

tears. i don't think he meant it. he is this close from being on the corner of 6th avenue of ringing a bell with a kettle it is an extraordinary thing the way these people have put themselves in front of donald trump to try to protect him. he is shaking down the vote everies for a billionaire. >> the grift continues. >> it is also -- it is so strange, eddie, that they have all this jesus imagery connected to this guy. i have seen clips on news networks of people saying that trump is jesus and like sacrificed like jesus. all of these bizarre parallels for a guy who, you know, is just the antithesis of everything

jesus said somebody should be. it is really -- go old testament and see what jeremiah says about idols. it is by the biblical definition it is idolatry and it is something i isle never get. >> absolutely. look it is funny when you juxtapose this but you are being insightful here they use the utilize the elements in the united states to cultivate a kind of loyalty. we saw it in waco. there was a liturgy and ways to participate in it. there's a statement going with it it makes sense it is funny and deeply troubling. >> michelle has a new piece for "the new york times" opinion section entitled "defendant

trump has the gop just where he wants it." it was perhaps inevitable with the donald trump arraignment one of his most zealous disciples, representative marjorie taylor greene would aim to drag jesus into this mess the former president is joining some of the most incredible people in history being arrested the maga chaos agent blatherred to a sconservative news outlet >> he talks about jesus. >> jesus jesus was arrested and murdered by the roman government, proclaimed ms. greene. as a lapsed southern baptist, i'll leave it to the more devout to debate whether this comparison qualifies as outright

blasphemy or is merely idiotic regardless a perfect distillation of the longstanding political refrain and country legal defense. he is the faultless victim of political persecution, a righteous martyr beset on all sides. in the gospel according to donald any bad thing he is accused of is moreproof that the forces of evil are out to get the maga messiah >> jen, again -- >> nailed it. >> so many others trying to draw parallels between jesus christ whose crucifixion we remember tomorrow and whose resurrection christians across the world celebrate on sunday, to a guy who got indicted for payoffs to

a porn star and a playboy bunny. and the religious imagery, it gets more grotesque by the moment and when guns and ar-15s are thrown into this toxic mix of christian nationalism that has nothing to do with the gospels of jesus christ. and yet, there's this new christian nationalism cult created that has all of the political issues and none, absolutely none, of the words of jesus christ, whether you are talking about the beatitudes or the sermon on the mount. the red letters in the gospels yet so many millions of americans are all in on this politicized gospel and they are

turning donald trump into an idol that not only jesus warned about but old testament prophets warned about i'm a lanced southern baptist and even i know this is the case what's up with the preachers watching the congregates distors and pervert the gospel of jesus christ for political purposes? >> you reap what you sow right? this is this takeover has happened over the course of the last couple of decades on the right. fl republican leaders have tolerated lies like this for a long time and then you have elected leaders like greene and i think she believes this stuff. right? this is not -- she believes that he is being persecuted like

jesus christ was so this is -- it is very hard to combat sometimes you think you can shame leaders because you knew what they were saying they understood to be false and you can't know that's true anymore because it is its own self sustaining universe of misinformation but protesters didn't show up in new york on tuesday. right? trump has been asking for people to protest, for that to happen that's not happened thus far i don't know even with this rhetoric and even though republican members of congress are backing trump saying that this is a witch hunt and all partisan, you don't yet see people rising up people are backing trump politically but that's different than showing the anger that the

elected officials are. i hope it stays that way. >> what i don't understand is you have the trump wing of the republican party doing two things talking about woke, snowflakes and how they are triggered and how they are masters of becoming victims. that's trump's persona i am a billionaire with a 757 that lives in a gold -- what 80-story tower, in one of the most esteemed estates in the state of florida, mar-a-lago i go on my 757 across the world and i play on my golf courses. i live the richest billionaire's life and yet he is a victim and

such a victim and so put upon that poor americans, working class americans need to give him $25. this is really perverse. republicans like graham gave billionaires and multinational corporations massive tax cuts in 2017, 2018 massive tax cuts where are they going for their money to help the billionaire with a 757 that jets across the world and paying off porn stars with money that, my god, would be for some people a three-year salary to pay off a porn star right before an election to try to hide it from voters he is going to those people right now and lindsey is crying. 20, $25, whatever poor working

class americans can give them. middle class americans he is a victim it is a scam what a perverse scam it is rich stealing from the poor. >> donald trump sent people to the united states capitol on a lie took money from them to stop the steal in his word and now sitting in jail and he doesn't give a damn about that they paid for it and continue to pay for it i had the same thought as joe listening to senator graham say this poor man and the family this poor man and the family donald trump and the trump family it is also really the paradox of the rise which is i am aspirational the rich guy the apartment. the women. the beautiful -- you want to be me some day but constantly a victim

agrieved under attack come and ride to my rescue. >> almost as if he is an embodiment of the contradictions of the 1980s aspirational and the grievance identity politics. we want to be billionaires create a possibility to achieve the dreams and at the same time you can inhabit a form, a sense of self. this identity that is agrieved because the government is shall we say financing the people that should be at the margins and not really americans there's an interesting combination of identity politics and the selfishness of the '80s coming back to bite us in the behind. >> what a fascinating contrast between donald trump and ronald reagan talking about the 1980s ronald reagan before joe biden

was the last american president not to go to an ivey league college, ronald reagan was talking about until the last day, literally the last day in office, the need for immigrants to come to america when they stop we die. and most importantly, trump is all about grievance. reagan was all about optimism. peggy noonan would say writing speeches if you said there's no way we cannot. he would say don't write it that way. write it we must do -- everything everything had to be positive. donald trump, again, not only do you have christian nationalists twisting the gospel, you have republicans completely twisting

reagan's view of what politics should be. it is unrecognizable and all negative and grievance. >> it is the tone and the policies of the 1980s republican party that have changed so radically. reagan said that he supported an assault weapons ban. you would never get anyone in the republican leadership saying that today opening the door to immigrants you would never get anyone in the republican party to admit that it is odd to hear today's republicans and maybe less often. they don't support the policies that ronald reagan embraced. it is on the tone of it. what a difference from a shining city to american carnage i think it's a really -- this 2024 is going to be really an interesting test of the american

idea that you get elected to the white house by being optimistic and embracing the things that europeans still so admire about the american population. an optimistic, can-do population was donald trump a blip? because he ran on a campaign of grievance then elected in 2024 does that say about the country that somebody can be elected twice that the model is broken and grievance politics and anger and fear is that the new model or just trump? >> we'll find out. meanwhile police provide extra security for those involved in the manhattan case against trump. according to two sources the judge and his family have received a number of threats, reportedly continued against manhattan district attorney

bragg and staff. while trump didn't mention anyone by name yesterday he did blast the quote radical left plun ticks, maniacs and perverts that he said had him arrested and said in part republicans in congress should defund the doj and fbi until they come to their senses defund fox news host steve doocy asked about those comments. >> after he was arrested yesterday, apparently today donald trump called for america to defund the police particularly the police because the democrats have weaponized law enforcement. all right. who in this panel, raise your hand, who thinks that's a good idea all right. nobody >> nobody. joining us from capitol hill nbc news senior reporter sahil

kapur. good morning there's reaction there for donald trump's call to defund law enforcement? graham said, quote, it's a bad idea. >> reporter: when's trying to defund the police? last republican president, donald trump explicitly calling for defunding the justice department and fbi he says until they come to their senses he has support here on capitol hill close to the maga movement like jim jordan, oversees the justice department there's greene, the far right fr firebrand and the republicans control the house. there's a government funding deadline where this could come into play. party leaders have not weighed in for the most part but others

have particularly in the senate. democrats say no way senator shotz told me, there are no circumstances under which we will defund federal law enforcement. there will be enough bipartisan votes to ignore this demand. senator collins, the republican chis chair of the appropriations committee, control it is process to a large degree, said reforms may be needed but i strongly oppose defunding the fbi and the department of justice. senator graham is supportive of donald trump for president in 2024 but he doesn't support the call to defund the police. >> i'm not for defunding the police i think it's a bad idea. as frustrated as he is about some things terrorism lurks out there. and, you know, taking the guard

down for one moment could be very dangerous for the public. >> reporter: based on this it seems fair to say that congress is not going to defund the doj and the fbi. this is a glimpse into where former president trump will try to congress and washington and the republican party if he wins the nomination in 2024 and pulls in like minded maga allies in congress. >> there are powerful republicans going along with donald trump jim jordan saying we have to look at the appropriations process. sahil kapur on capitol hill, thank you. >> i want to say -- i'm sorry. isn't it crazy that you actually have lindsey graham having to push back on donald trump defunding the police donald trump supports defunding the police steve dooci on fox news asks

people, do you support defunding the police do you support donald trump's efforts to defund the police graham said terrorism lurks. you have donald trump wanting to defund the police. it keeps gets more and more bizarre. >> whoever comes at him he decides he is the victim and they are the evil enemy. get ready for more a judge is watching every word he says so he is probably being urged by the attorneys to be very, very, very careful with his words. blinken is weighing in on the detainment of "wall street journal" reporter. >> we are working through the determination on wrongful

detention. in my own mind there's no doubt that he is wrongfully detained by russia which is exactly what i said to foreign minister lavrov over the weekend and insisted that evan be released immediately. but i want to make sure that as always because there is a formal process that we go through it and we will and i suspect that to be completed soon. >> this is now the way russia practices state craft. they kidnap americans. they get americans to release international arms dealers, international convicts for basketball players putin then decides, okay, we'll get a "wall street journal" roert. there's an international criminal in brazil that putin

wants. a dangerous russian. he wants a tradeoff. "wall street journal" reporter for another horrific russian so who's committed crime after crime. the question is, where does it stop if we make another trade here he'll seize somebody else. >> yeah. this is why the u.s. government and most european governments say they don't negotiate with terrorists because you incentivize the people who benefited to do the same play again. it is not clear whether putin is deliberately trying to get one person, the person in brazil, another guy in germany he tried to get out or a power play something that he is doing because he can do it to terrorize western

governments. we need particularly with this war going on, the bbc and nbc reporters there and we are all nervous now. if we don't have them there we don't know what the pressures are on vladimir putin. we don't know the economic consequences of this war on the russian government we need that information and the u.s. government needs that information making the strategy. but boy, a lot more dangerous for them since evan was arrested. >> president lukashenko in moscow today for a meeting with russian president vladimir putin, expected to discuss expanded miltd and economic ties between the ties earlier this week the russian defense minister said russia

delivered a missile system to belarus. joining us is the u.s. ambassador to finland, finland joined nato, the nato alliance on tuesday what does membership in nato mean, not only for finland, but for the world? >> it's a historic day for finland, europe and the world. it is very significant finland has more army and army reservists than france, italy and germany combined they have a maritime navy purpose built for the baltics. they have an air force that will make them one of the most advanced in europe it is critically important from a defense purpose not just for

finland but all nato members. >> tell us about public opinion in finland around this issue as they were joining they had -- nato -- they had a change of government following the election there did the nato question come up or are finns across the board supporting this nato idea? >> it is an amazing road when you think about it because this is the fastest asession in modern history looking at the parties in finland and although there's a change in government there's resolve across nato, for sure. it is a positive theme in finland and throughout the nordics. >> we had admiral james

stravides saying it is remarkable before the war broke out we were concerned about the finlandization of nato and europe because of the increasing dependence on energy from russia now a year, year and a half later we are looking at the natoization of finland could you explain to americans who may not be aware how extraordinarily significant it is with the 800-mile border and the history between russia and fun land >> it is amazing you hit on a critical point. finland has an 835-mile border with russia. it is critically important that that border be defended and finns did a remarkable job in making sure that that border is defended

they have had a long struggle with the russians. they have been involved with wars back to the winter war fighting the russians. during the time when people were looking at the peace dividend and lowering the defense algorithm the finns never did that you can see the way they built the military they are prepared. the decfense is part of the social fabric. >> to put the map back up again. whet when we first started to talk about finland being a nato member, i didn't realize how close to the border st. petersburg is to the finland border

a couple hours by car? >> yeah. there used to be train service to helsinki on a very, very routine basis. so many russians would visit finland and finns would visit russia it is clearly close proximity. the other point is sweden on the border, as well. we are excited about finland being part of nato the 31st entrant being finland we need to continue to drive sweden. >> u.s. ambassador to finland douglas hickey, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. thank you, sir. >> thank you. and still ahead on "morning joe," house speaker kevin mccarthy meets with the president of taiwan and china is threatening to take action.

also ahead, my conversation with award winning actress michelle williams. you are watching "morning joe. we'll be right back. for safe driving with liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance. so you only pay for what you need! whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (man) what if my type 2 diabetes takes over? (woman)ay for what you need. what if all i do isn't enough? or what if i can do diabetes differently? (avo) now you can with once-weekly mounjaro. mounjaro helps your body regulate blood sugar, and mounjaro can help decrease how much food you eat.

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today remembering the life and legacy of the late nbc colleague david bloom who died 20 years ago on assignment in iraq peter alexander reports. >> reporter: david bloom was committed, compelling and courageous on camera he shined, so talented and tenacious. covering the world's biggest stories from 9/11. >> 40 more stories crashing to the ground. >> reporter: to the u.s. invasion of iraq. >> sandstorm is pounding the troops in the 315 infantry. >> we think about what it would have been like if he was still around i don't know. >> i think he would have been going to the most dangerous

parts of the world still seeking those stories. >> sad news today from the front lines of iraq. nbc's david bloom died overnight. >> reporter: david collapsed a blood clot travelled to the lungs. beloved, david bloom was just 39 leaving behind his wife and three daughters. to the girls he wasn't david he was dad and a huge ball of energy. >> he would carry us up the staircase at the same time with me on his shoulders and pretend to lose his balance until we scream and laugh. >> reporter: for the twins some moments are seared into the memory. >> the last moment we were all

huddled in the front entryway and held hands and said the our father and hugged us and got in the blacktown car and drove down the street and waving to us down the street after he passed i had recurring dreams that he was coming back down the street in that town car and he was coming home again. >> reporter: she shared some of the last words he wanted to make sure his daughters were unselfish. >> when you miss me remember to say a prayer for the other boys and girls. yes, when i'm a little bit scared i promise you i will remember you and your mom and how much you love me to the moon and back, right? >> reporter: the soundman brought home sand from near where their dad passed makes you feel close to your

dad? >> absolutely. a moment that changed our family and having a physical piece of that is really meaningful. >> seemed like faith helped you all in its own way >> absolutely. >> after he passed i used to keep a diary to write to him like, random but i would say dear daddy and i would - >> i didn't know that. >> if i was struggling i would be like can you help me? reaching out to him up in heaven. >> reporter: so who knows what this is? >> oh my gosh. >> reporter: this is the bloom-mobile. >> oh my gosh. >> reporter: we saw the dream, the vehicle he helped design to bring nbc' viewers to the front line. >> we talked to him within 24

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there was a rare, historic meeting yesterday between house speaker kevin mccarthy and taiwan's president on u.s. soil. nbc news chief affairs correspondent andrea mitchell has the latest. >> reporter: despite threats from china house speaker kevin mccarthy and a bipartisan congressional delegation at the reagan library in california with taiwan's president in a strong show of support.

>> our bond is stronger now than any time or point in my lifetime. >> today the peace that we have maintained and the democracy which we have worked hard to build are facing unprecedented challenges. >> reporter: at the suggestion the meeting in the u.s., les provocative than going to taiwan as speaker pelosi did. beijing saying the meeting undermines china's sovereignty. >> this is a bipartisan meeting of members of congress honored to spend time with you. >> reporter: tensions between the u.s. and china high including over the china spy balloon picking up electronic signals intelligence while making repeated passes over sensitive military sites because the u.s. timely shot it down

do you worry that meeting with president tsai in the united states is going to further escalate the tensions? >> no. it shouldn't i would sit down with president xi what i think fosters a worse situation is lack of communication. >> reporter: officials say china is likely to invade taiwan within the next five years. overnight house form affairs chairman michael mccall did land in taipei for a visit saying to reporters they would not be intimidated by the chinese saber rattling good morning richard, on the visit by the taiwanese president to the library in california yesterday with kevin mccarthy. it was bipartisan. decent diplomacy by the speaker it appeared.

>> by everybody. the speaker didn't go there to taiwan but instead agreed to meet the president of taiwan here already good. this is a transit to the united states heavily choreographed. didn't give a speech it was within the understandings you have a situation where the mainland doesn't want a situation. the leader of the other party in taiwan was in beijing. they don't want to provocative a domestic reaction in taiwan. they have presidential elections within a year. everybody on the best behavior and successful. >> delicate choreography going on there what's the view from the other side of this inside china?

>> the view from china among the business community, people i met, nervousness with the calmness around the visit tensions are elevated and everybody in china recognizes that to move against taiwan is a major confrontation. everywhere you go in china they talk about taiwan and what will happen in taiwan because it is as much a problem for them as it is for us in a way >> richard, talk about the selective outrage from china we have talked about how sometimes speakers will go there. not a huge protest other times when notary public went there's a huge protest. i went when they had the first inauguration with a huge delegation and not a lot of

protests i understand china's always going to oppose american politicians going to taiwan. why the selective outrage? why make a big deal sometimes but not other times? >> depends on context why where we are in the taiwan political cycle and the u.s.-chinese relationship whether there's a precedent particularly being set might also depend in part upon domestic politics on the mainland but here again i think everybody, my recent meetings with chinese officials suggest they are not looking for an escalation in tensions things have gotten about as bad as they have gotten in modern era. we don't have high level diplomacy anymore. china is worried about the

deterioration in relations i think they want a certain calming and so does the administration i don't think we are in a moment of improvement in relations to any significant degree but maybe both sides are looking for a floor since neither is looking for a bad situation to get worse much less a crisis or an incident. coming up, what's driving the day on wall street. plus, my conversation with five-time oscar nominee michelle williams "morning joe" is back in a moment (vo) in two seconds, eric will realize (man) [laughs] (vo) they're gonna need more space... gotta sell the house. (vo) oh..open houses or, skip the hassles and sell with confidence to opendoor. wow. (vo) request a cash offer at opendoor dot com

>> michelle, i guess i will start with you. what drew you to the film, specifically to this artist? this character? >> well, we work together, kelly and i and i know that the truth is to be with her, to be with my friend and contributor her body of work, i just know that the answer is yes, i don't really have to read the script. i am excited to read the script, and figure out, and see what she is embarking on, and see what she is thinking about.

and we really just started the process of the woman we use in this film, this artist, i spent a lot of time with her over zoom and the pandemic, working through a big bag of clay that they sent me. and just being with her, watching her process, and i can't literally capture her the spirit inside of her in the spirit of the work she makes. >> so, kelly, tell me a little bit about this character. michelle mentioned the process, and i know, when i interrupted my mom, when she was in the process, it was a rough day for me. and what do you have to do to put her chainsaw down and walk away and come back to it, because the process can be, not only consuming, but difficult

to get into. so, tell us about this character, and her relationship with the process. >> i should say that the script was written by myself, and jonathan raymond, and john, wh -- and i, who live in a community of artists in portland getting to our table every day to work, and getting out and what other distractions of life are, you know, that was sort of a theme we wanted to hit on. yeah, what is the routine, and what are the friends knocking at your door to distract you from that process. and so, this character is a real salad of artists that we know. and so, all of those things kind of places, and characters kind of built us. >> we have a push to get the hot water turned back on and

not really succeeding. take a look. >> i'm on it. just got to get through the script first. shouldn't even be here right now. >> i do too, and i'm not sure what i do with hot water. >> i told you, you can use my shower. >> i want my own water working. >> my show is open on friday, i will be free after that. >> i have a show too you know? that is the only one with a deadline. >> i know, but i have two shows, which is insane. hate. push

>> i know you mentioned this is your fourth project together. it is the kind of thing you don't even have to look at the script. so, question for both of you, and kelly, i will start with you, what you love about working with each other? talk about women supporting women on the show. >> you know, now it has been, we go away and we don't see each other for a while and then we come back together, and i feel like, i mean i felt really lucky when i got to work with michelle the first time. and, you know, when you have collaborators that are-- that you are kind of working to meet their level of what they are pulling off, it is a great thing, and then i feel like i have benefited for all of the work she does in between projects that we make together. and, really it is just personalities with, you know, i find michelle very easy to work

with, very eager, all into it, and smart. and so, those are all, yeah, it is a good ride. so-- >> we were just reminiscing about the first movie. i said, kelly, how big is our crew? she said it was-- >> 13. >> 13. yeah, the first was like a crew of 13. it was this incredibly intimate way. and that is the seed of our relationship. that is where we first met, when we first started collaborating. so i think that is at the heart of everything we do, just kind of that kind of closeness. >> and michelle, i'm curious, as an academy award nominee. i'm just wondering if your attitude toward, i don't know, aged this business has changed at all? do you see more doors opening, i'm wondering, like, as a

younger woman, did you ever imagine your career, say, after the age of 50, after you turn 50, you see a longer runway for yourself now? >> i do, because i see it in front of me, i see it all around me. i see women of all ages making super interesting work. and i think also that, you know, the way that the television medium has expanded means that there's so many more roles, and there's really interesting things being done in lots of formats. i also see stage figures into my life. so, i see that, between these, sort of different ways to work i do see opportunities for myself. i see opportunities for women around me. i see-- i feel a change. in the kind of material that is out there, and the ability to

get it made, because of how much they have raised the bar that we have seen on television. >> the movie is called showing off, and it is in theaters on april 7th. michelle williams and kelly reichart. take you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you. it is the top of the fourth hour now of morning joe, 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast, and a lot of to get to this hour, including mike pence possible's court ordered courage. the former vice president will give testimony to a grand jury, after a judge gave him a small victory in court. we will explain that. also ahead, a troubling story out of tennessee, where the republican-controlled statehouse is set to vote on expelling three democrats over protests for gun legislation. we will be joined by one of the democrats in just a moment. we are also keeping an eye on wall street before the bell. the future in the red, ahead of new data on the job market.

plus, not only is spreading anti-somatic language morally wrong, it is bad for your network. that is what kanye west is finding out. we are having more on that a little bit later in this hour. but lily, we start with our top story this money. yes, we follow what could be a major development of the special counsel's investigation into president trump's effort to overturn the 2020 election. former vice president, mike pence, will not appeal a federal judge's ruling, ordering him to testify before a grand jury. nbc senior washington correspondent, hallie jackson, has the latest. a new move by mike pence this morning that could be damaging to his former boss, with a pencil spokesperson sing the former vice president will not appeal a federal judge's order to testify in a special counsel investigation into donald trump's push to overturn the 2020 election. that opens the door to new, possibly crucial access to

parents, who witnessed firsthand mr. trump's actions leading up to january 6th, and could speak about it under oath for the first time. the trump legal team could still appeal. the special counsel probe one of three investigations the probe faces. mr. trump lashing out online, calling for the gop to defund the doj and fbi. even some of his republican allies disagree. >> i'm not for defunding the police. i think it's a bad idea. >> it comes after mr. trump pleaded not guilty to 34 charges this week in the manhattan district attorney's felony case against him. he is accused of lying about business records related to hush money payments before the 2016 election. the former president, getting new backup from one of his most powerful republican allies. >> are you worried he could lose the general election? >> i think if someone wants to play, i think it helps them to campaign better. >> and now beefed up security for the judge overseeing the case, with nbc news learning judge juan and his family

received new threats of the 36 hours since he presided over the former president's historic arraignment. according to two sources familiar with the matter, who say the threats are unsubstantiated him about being investigated. mr. trump, who has a history of going after those investigating him as attacked the judge as recently as tuesday night. >> i have a trump hating judge, with a trump hating wife and family. >> those comments, coming just hours after he asked all parties to avoid saying anything that could incite violence or jeopardize anybody's safety. savanna, with mr. trump's attorney. >> did you do what trump the judge advised you to do and knock it off? >> is not trying to incite violence. >> that is not true. if you say that-- of trump says that is a trump hating judge, and he has a trump hating wife and his two sons are targeting the judge's daughter for hatred, i mean,--

>> i would be careful. >> that is, again, there is free speech, there are first amendment rights, political speech is the most protected of all free speech when you go into a courtroom, and you are indicted, and you are facing charges and a judge tells you that, at least in his courtroom, he is in charge, and you can't go out and disrespect the court. you can't do things that would cause that, trump knows exactly what he's doing, and he went out and did it. i don't know what his lawyers talking about. again, trump is so seriously unbalanced right now that even politically he is having lindsey graham saying oh, no, no, no. the second. i may be a televangelist for trump, but i am against defunding the police, donald trump should not be defunding

the police. that is what lindsay said. and then, on fox news, steve ducey asked a group of trump supporters whether they supported donald trump's call to defund the police. this is how it went down. >> after he was arrested yesterday, apparently today, donald trump has called for america to defund the police. particularly the fbi, the department of justice, because the democrats have weapon iced law enforcement. all right, who in this panel raise your hand. who thinks that's a good idea? all right, nobody. >> i want to bring in donny deutsch. you talk about your own brand, undercutting your own bs, undercutting your own lies. trump has been lying about democrats wanting to defund the police for years. democratic leaders, while we have nancy pelosi, jim clyburn, one democrat after another coming on the show, saying, no, we are not for defunding the

police, and then trump goes out and says he wants to defund the police. and you have lindsey graham going, no, no, no, trump is wrong, i'm not for defunding the police. steve ducey asking these republicans, do you support donald trump, and in steve's own words, do you support donald trump's call to defund the police? they just sat there, stonefaced. this guy is getting so far out of their, even some of his most adamant supporters are going-- enough. >> excuse me, you mentioned trump 'brand. let's talk about the essence of trump 'brand. was always about strength and invincibility. you know, it is interesting. member the nft cards he put out there, and every example, he was a superhero. he was a cowboy, he was an astronaut, he was rocky. if you contrast one of those images with trump sitting in the arraignment he has been neutered. i don't want to produce the show, but if you took those side by side, one is the old

2015, 2016 version of trump, with his chest stuck out, and now he has got lindsey graham crying for him. you've literally gotten, please, please, please, help this man, help this man, and his essence has been-- and anybody who says this is good for him, and that he's going to continue to be in the news, front and center, he's in the news as a muzzled, defeated guy, and this is just the first. the only thing this helps is donald trump, it hurts the republicans, because the only shot the republicans had was desantis, and he destroyed desantis with this. nobody else. and this is, just look at this man, this is a very different man than we have watched for the first three, four, five, six years of this story, and john meacham mentioned that this is the beginning of the next chapter of the apprentice. this is 40 hours in and i'm already bored. in the next time he appears in court is sometime in september?

this is not a story that has legs, the only legs it has will be the next prosecution, the more serious prosecutions. so, we have a very, very non nft donald trump, we have a very weekend neutered, impotent donald trump. different from his brand in the past. >> you talk about how it is ol . this season is old. you know, i was watching his speech the other night. and i'm sitting there, watching, and about three minutes in, i'm like, okay, well he's not actually going to use this in a way that can help him, politically, or help republicans politically and about 10 minutes and i started zoning out, willie, because, again, it was the same old grievance. it was he same old lies it was the same old outrageous conspiracy theories again, on stolen elections that lost arizona for republicans, that lost pennsylvania for republicans, that lost michigan for republicans, that lost wisconsin for republicans, that lost georgia for republicans.

this is a losing tickets. and this morning, as the wall street journal, dan says basically, listen, he said, we may all hate what happened in manhattan, and we may all think that that is the wrong thing to do, but if you want revenge against democrats, getting behind donald trump is the worst thing to do right now, because trump will lose. democrats are goading republicans into putting trump back into power now, and he said, if we do this, we are doomed. >> well they are doing this, and the wall street journal editorial page doesn't have much say in the matter, because the voters like what they see, some members, and talking about republican primary voters, a sliver of voters that stand with donald trump, look at the polling right now, look at his strength. we will see what happens when georgia rolls out, we will see

what happens when jack smith gets deeper into and it his investigation and, perhaps brings charges on january 6th in the mar-a-lago documents, but for the moment, that act, and you are absolutely right, joe, you turned that speech on the other night. inside of a minute, you are like what's on the fcc network? i can cite this speech word forward, because you been hearing it for 8 words now, he still the victim, he still agreed, he still talking about 2020, and, joe, that very same night, the side-by-side we talked about in the state of wisconsin, where wisconsin put a liberal supreme court justice up there. now progressives control the supreme court in the state of wisconsin, but it was about a lot more than that. it was about a vote. it wasn't even close, by the way. she won by double digits, a vote, in which republicans have dominated now for a generation, just hemorrhaging voters, hemorrhaging voters in places they absolutely have to win in the suburbs of milwaukee, for example, which may tell us

about the suburbs of philadelphia, the suburbs of atlanta, come 2024. >> in the trump republican party is just driving, driving the car straight over the cliff, and they make one mistake after another, but going back to what amateurs said this morning in the wall street journal and what the wall street journal editorial, made editorial was talking about. they are talking about wisconsin , and what a warning shot that was across the ball for republicans in 2024, because of what you were talking about, and also, willie, get this, it is crazy. they saw how the overturning of roe was horrible in swing states in 2022. and yet they kept on the books, near total abortion ban that passed when zachary taylor was president of the united states, and before we had a railway

system coast to coast in this country. 1849, and as the journal said, you guys were warned. you knew. that this was causing losses for republicans in swing states. you had noticed, and yet you just are getting more extreme on the issue. and that is happening, and it is happening with guns. they are getting more extreme on the issues on guns. like, come on, wisconsin? michigan? pennsylvania? suburban voters in atlanta? atlanta suburban voters in georgia? all of these voters that are breaking hard against republicans again right now, they don't want to go into a costco and see some goon carrying an ar 15 around, you know? around his neck. they don't want their children

to see that. >> the children are traumatized enough. >> and by the way? who is against that? republicans, like most voting republicans, and i mean swing voters, and yet that is what they are doing. and it is just crushing the republican party 'chances of winning in any swing state in 2024. >> you keep hearing from the lone voices in the republican party after 2022, where they got wiped out in the midterms, or at least didn't gain what they should've game, which is, okay, we are wrong on abortion, we are wrong on looking back at the 2020 election. we are going to continue to lose elections, and they turn around and lean harder into those issues. so, we will continue to watch how this plays out. joining us now is the former acting solicitor jen general, and nbc legal analyst back with us. eddie junior. i will start with you neil, a

couple of steps back in our conversation to what we have watched in lower manhattan, what you expect to see hear from the judge now, as he gave that admonition to donald trump, and his attorneys to cool it, stop going after judges, grand juries the families of judges, etc. , donald trump, right back at it, almost immediately after he stepped out of the courthouse, downtown here, numbers of his family as well. what can the judge do o prevent some of the stuff from happening, and if he doesn't, what are the consequences to the former president? >> yeah, so, before looking forward to what this judge will likely do, i think it is important to take a breath and see where we are, because for the third day ever in the history of this country, and over 200 years we have a former president under arrest, and the imagery you have been seeing in the country i think underscores that, and to me it is an image of the role of law working. the process is now going to start, and in that process donald trump will have the

presumption of innocence. he has got to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the highest standard in the law. and all 12 jurors are going to have to agree that he is guilty, in order for him to be convicted. so, there's a lot of stuff that has to happen. and one of those things is dealing with trump's speech. and what he is saying. i mean, he, that press conference he gave two nights ago was unprecedented. i mean, leave it to donald trump to respond to one crime, by trying to give the speech and another locale of a crime scene, mar-a-lago, of course, where he held the documents. and the speech was typical donald trump, which works outside of the criminal process, but not inside of it, that shouldn't surprise us. i mean, this is a guy who was told he lost an election he then claims he won it. he was told he needed to give back all these national security documents so he keeps them. and now he is told by the judge that you need to give a speech

that will not inside violence and of course, he goes and does it anyway. i do think that this judge is going to rein him n. i do not-- and i think the reason is a has nothing to do with trump, but if you are the judge and you are sitting there and you have a defendant, the most high profile defendant ever in the history of the state of new york saying all of this stuff, whatever this judge does with respect trump is going to set a precedent in every other case, and if you let's trump you know, wind about, and say all of this stuff and this is horrific stuff about the district attorney and the district attorney 'family, then every other defendant could do that too. and that is not a criminal justice system. so it's not going to work that way. so, just as a matter of precedent, i think this will be reined in by the judge. >> it seems the judges in a position, as you just noted, neil, that he has to do something at some point. i guess the question is how far trump has to go. you heard earlier this week,

the former attorney general, sang trump is just completely undisciplined. so they underrated how long it takes before he goes too far, joe, and says something that is just out right defamatory and threatening. he is coming close to the line, and you see, even in his latest truth social post, he's not naming-- i believe he is not naming names, but he is trying - it is the first time in his life this former president is accountable for his words and actions. >> he walks out of the courthouse, he goes down to mar- a-lago, and then he attacks the judge, and he attacks the judges wife. and on this show for the past couple of days, there is not a judge that i ever practice before on the state level, or the federal level, that would have ever allowed that to happen. any criminal defendant who did that would be called back in court, would be found guilty of contempt of court, and probabl

, at least where i practice law, spend a night in jail. >> that is 100% right, and i think this judge has done things the right way. so, we have the transcript of what happened in the courtroom on tuesday, and the judge began, by saying, look, mr. trump, i know you have first amendment rights, that is really important to me. you are also running for the presidency, so, i don't want to guide your speech, and i want to i get here, but, he said, you have got to refrain from this kind of speech that incites violence, then trump goes and gives the speech that you are talking about, joe, and i do suspect that this judge is going to have to say something, just in a matter of days, if this continues at all. i mean, there may be the slim chance that trump 'new attorney, who is evidently very good, might be able to talk some sense into him, but so far i haven't made an attorney who has been able to do that, so or a good attorney who is able to

do that. >> you mentioned mar-a-lago, and we know that there is fulton county, we know that there's all these other cases, but you are also mentioning the rule of law. there are some arguing that this case it's not quite the case to begin with. how do you respond to those who read the indictment, who feel like, perhaps this shouldn't be the way we come out of the box, with regards to this historic moment of indicting the first-- a first former president of the united states? >> well, one of the geniuses that our founders have, eddie, is a system which is decentralized, so you have a new york investigation about one thing, a georgia investigation about something else, and two federal investigations about stolen documents, and about january 6th. mendis prosecutors will bring their cases, if and when they are ready.

and, you know, it has never been a compelling argument to me to say, oh, you shouldn't bring the new york case, because trump did something wrong somewhere else that was even worse. i mean, you don't get a get out of jail free card by committing a more serious crime in another jurisdiction. that doesn't make sense to me. and then the other thing to think about is, look, people are saying, well, maybe it shouldn't have been a felony, maybe it should only be a misdemeanor here, about further crimes, it may not be a felon. i disagree with that, but let's just say they are right, 100% right on all of that, that it is only a misdemeanor, that misdemeanor in new york carries up to a year of jail time, and remember, it was a guy, named donald trump in 2015 and 2016, who came campaigned on one thing, lock her up? what if you want to lock her up for? a misdemeanor, mishandling classified information was a misdemeanor. so, just on trump's on logic, this is significant. >> yeah, and it is a felony, 34 counts, and he has been arraigned. he is a criminal defendant.

that can't be changed. that is not debatable. that is not something he can talk his way out of, that is something he's not used to. former acting solicitor general, neal katyal, thank you very much, we will be watching what happens. so, roughly 100 students at northeast tennessee high school walked out of class yesterday to protest the gun violence epidemic in our country. the students gathered in front of the school, chanting, protect our kids, as they held up signs that read, ban guns, not books, and sick of thoughts and prayers. the event was not sanctioned by the school, but the district released a statement of support for the students right to protest. the tennessee walkout came, as republicans in the statehouse are pushing to expel three democrats for quote, disorderly behavior, while they were protesting gun violence. republican say the democrats broke chamber rules, when they approached the house podium,

and began chanting with protesters in the house chamber gallery, when they weren't recognized. the tennessee house speaker went as far as comparing their actions to the anuary 6th insurrection. just take a look at this video. is comparing what is happening here to the january 6th attack on the capitol of the insurrection. >> where you had police officers, and you had cops bludgeoned, and beaten. >> american flags, windows broken, property destroyed, trump supporters, capitol cops, exactly, members being terrorized in fear for their lives here, this looks like some people chanting. >> they are holding up a sign. >> yeah, they are holding up a sign. there was bear spray being sprayed out cops. there were cops who died after the attacks. you talked to family members, who blame the january 6th riots on the death

of four different cops, four police officers, and how grotesque that they are comparing protests and chance to a mob scene, to a riot that was aimed at overturning a democratic peaceful election. let's bring in right now one of the three tennessee house democrats targeted for expulsion by republicans. state representative, gloria johnson. representative johnson, this is just obviously unprecedented. is it not? >> is it absolutely surreal. i really can't believe that we are here. that democracy is being eroded, and we are marching toward fascism, certainly in tennessee. you know, we did break a rule, by going to the wheel, without permission. within 20 seconds they cut the mic and called a recess. so most of what you saw was during a recess, they acted as

if it was like january 6th, it's just a lie. it was such a peaceful rally. our speaker even went on fox news and said that the protesters tried to storm the chamber doors, called the protesters insurrectionist. these were folks that i talked to that morning, that were parents, that dropped their kids, moms were crying to me that morning, saying i had to drop my kids off at school, before i came here, and i just hope that they ill be safe when i pick them up this afternoon. and they were not allowing us to speak on the floor, to welcome and acknowledge the protesters, acknowledge the, just devastation that gun violence causes, and talk about that issue. we were busy voting on things like resolutions to build a wall on the border. rather than talking about the issues, my colleagues across the aisle would not even look the protesters in the eyes, as

they came into the chambers. >> representative johnson, good morning, thank you for being with us. you are right, it is a lie, the comparison is just so gross. you are talking about you and a group of high school students asking for legislation so there might be a better chance they are not shot and killed inside their schools, as opposed to a group of people being led, by a lie to attack police officers at the united states capital. i want to point something out to our viewers is that you are a former high school teacher, and you can talk about this as much, or as little as you are comfortable, but in 2008, at a high school in knoxville, you were present for a school shooting, where a 15-year-old was killed at school. how has that impacted your view on gun safety? >> that is why i brought red flag laws the past two years, it is always an issue i have cared about, safe storage. i will never forget that day, on august 21st, when i was sitting in my classroom. it was breakfast time, the bell hadn't run yet, my students had

gathered in the cafeteria, had breakfast with all of the students, and i look up, i look outside the window and i see all of my students, and other students, hundreds of students running down the hill, screaming, and crying, running into my classroom, and i will just never forget the terror on their face, the tears i will never forget, it took them a few minutes to be able to articulate to me what was happening. and you never forget something like that, and to walk past those parents, and not recognize their fears and their concerns for their children-- it is just, i don't know how somebody can do that, and i don't know how you cannot recognize those people, the issues that they care about, or not allow us to recognize them on the house floor. after the shooting in nashville, where we lost evelyn, callie, william, cynthia, kathryn, and mike, the first

action this body took was not to do something about gun violence but to expel three members who spoke up against gun violence. >> well i'm glad you mentioned their names, we are seeing their faces as well, the 39- year-old victims at covenant school in nashville, three educators and staff, including the head of the school there. so, representative, what you do with that kind of posture, when the reflex, right after a school shooting is to defend gun rights in your state? a lot of people, kind of speaking privately, with the people around tennessee that spent some time living said there is nothing that will change here, that's just how it is, in fact the laws are getting looser. how do you push back against that, in the interest of making schools and public spaces safer? >> meet the amazing kids that are coming in droves up here, and they are not going to let up. this younger generation is-- they are going to push, and they are going to fight.

you know? my colleagues like, when we did a chat, no action, no peace. they acted like that was some sort of call to war. everybody knows that there is a chance for protest, no justice, no peace. and what that means is, we are not going to stop showing up, standing up, and speaking up. that is the piece we are talking about, we will stay present until there is action on gun violence. and i have a whole lot of faith in this new generation, but they are also, you know, thousands of adults that are going to be gathering with them as well. and so, the reality is, we have got folks that are not going to let up and our super majority is not with the public of tennessee. i live in very red, east tennessee, and in my district red flag laws are more than 50% of republicans in my district favor red flag laws. that is just a fact.

they are out of touch, they are under the thumb of the nra, and the tennessee firearms association, and they are not listening to their constituents. >> we know you have got to get to work there in the capitol, we appreciate you stopping through with us. tennessee state representative, gloria johnson, thank you for your time, we appreciate it. something we've been saying over the past week or so. it will probably be this next generation, who have lived through and experienced the trauma of school shootings and worry that when you go to school every day t might be your turn at your school who may bring about some change to protect our schools and churches grocery stores and public spaces. >> absolutely. listening to representative johnson and looking at those images, just got angry. right? and two things come to mind. one, how antidemocratic this whole process is, they are going to literally expel representatives from three districts that represent over 200,000 people, who will no longer have representation in the state house in tennessee. on the basis of breaking a rule

about the koran. under the undemocratic to its core. and second i am inspired, even as i am angered, right? because i actually called for wildcat strikes, students walking out. i think we should all join them in a general strike over assault weapons ban's. we have to do something. this majority, real quickly, this radical minority that has the country by the throat has to be responded to by all of us. really desire a different america. we have to fight at the scale at which they have us by the throat, it seems to me. >> well, i will tell you, you are so right, eddie. adults, in this case, are failing our kids, and as gloria johnson just put it so eloquently, these kids are going to have the say, finally, at some point. they are growing up, with this type of trauma, and terror in their lives, they will do something about it, they already are.

coming up on morning joe, stock markets will be closed tomorrow for good friday, but investors will still be watching for one of the most consequential jobs reports of the year. cnbc's andrea sorkin will join us with a preview. plus the long road to justice for one man, granted clemency aft serpending 23 years in prison for murder. how an nbc news investigative producer was able to get to the truth behind the conviction. that story is ahead. we will be right back.

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34 past the hour. investors tomorrow will be watching closely for one of the most consequential jobs reports of the year. let's bring in coanchor of cnbc's! boss. andrew ross sorkin. what are looking for an? >> tomorrow will be a big day. the stock market will not be open. so, we will not be able to see how investors and the public

measure what is going to be happening, but 240,000 jobs, that is the number to put down on your scorecard, above or below that. the real question though, is how the federal reserve really thinks about employment today in this world and how much they think about employment versus the issue of inflation. and from the conversations we have been having of the reporting i've been doing over the past couple of weeks, it still seems that j powell believes that inflation is the issue that he is concerned about, which means that he is likely to continue to raise interest rates. this, despite a sense of the stock market over the last couple of weeks that he may, ultimately pause, but right now it feels like he is willing to keep his foot on the neck, if you will, of the economy. now, the flipside of that means there may be a more unemployment, and how you balance those two things is, of course the central issue. >> all right, andrew. obviously i want to talk to you

about kanye west, >> what you think. >> i'm going to ask you what you think. but first, if you could talk a little bit about china's reaction to kevin mccarthy meeting with the leader of taiwan? >> well, look, you can go back, actually and look at this meeting that he just had, and also, by the way, look at the criticism that the republicans had, when pelosi, if you remember, went to taiwan. so, this is a both sides situation. the conundrum right now is that the rhetoric, it seems, and look, it epends on which side of this, maybe you are on, but the rhetoric is getting hot. it is getting hotter and hotter and hotter, and hotter, and what that ultimately means to the relationship between the u.s. and china is substantial. you know, there are these meetings going on with tech leaders in the united states. what is the relationship that a company like apple should have with china? is a major, major question. there is a lot of pressure on apple to get out of china.

the question though is, is that pressure from china, which it is and at the moment, or, i would argue most of that pressure is actually coming from the united states today. and that is a major shift. so, u.s. companies that were doing business with china, the pressure on them is now from u.s. politicians, rather than the risks that they thought they had of actually just doing business in china from the chinese government itself, and that a substantial. >> okay, and then, finally, note to kanye west, or, his name, you can decide. anti-semitism doesn't scale. >> it doesn't scale, and boy, does it not pay. i hope that this is a lesson for everybody out there. here's a man, who was worth, depending on who you believed, somewhere between $1,000,000,003.3 billion, according to him, literally just months ago when he had that deal with adidas. used to actually complaint of forbes, about his scoring, or rather lack of scoring on the

billionaire's list put on that list in 2020. now he is no longer on that list, it appears that they are saying that they believe that his total net worth is-- and get out your smallest violin here come only $400 million. between that $400 million of the 2 billion+ they had on the list previously was a function of that adidas deal. used to get a piece of every sneaker, every adidas piece of goods, kind of like michael jordan's does, and the way they valued that stream of income at something along the lines of about 1,000,000,000 1/2 dollars. well, that billion and a half dollars just vaporized. >> all right, cnbc's andrew ross sorkin. great to have you, as always. thank you. up next, the story of a man convicted of murder, his fight for justice, and how the letters he sent an nbc news producer sparked an 20 year investigation that changed both

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what seemed like a typical day in december 2002, investigative producer received a letter that would change his life. it was from an inmate, serving 25 years to life at a maximum security prison, in upstate new york for a murder, he says he did not commit. nbc's lester holt has the story. >> reporter: this correctional facility houses more than 1300 prisoners. each can tell you why they are here. >> i spent a lot of time trying- - >> reporter: some will tell you why they shouldn't be. >> i know i don't belong here, but i am firm believer that everything that happens to us in life is for a purpose. >> reporter: it was a single letter, addressed to dateline nbc producer, dan slippery, sent by john adrian, jj velasquez, who was serving a life sentence for the murder of a retired police officer. convicted solely on eyewitness testimony. dozens more would follow, skeptical, but curious, dan page jj a visit. >> people say you should be

here for a reason, that you should be locked up for murder. >> that's what they say, yeah, and they don't know the whole story. neither did i. >> reporter: there began a 2he detail now in the new nbc studios podcast, letters from sing sing. >> what i've learned over the past two decades haunts me. >> reporter: j.j. gave dan mountains of case documents and challenged him to prove him guilty. dan track down the key eyewitness. he told dan he was pressured by police, and basically picked out jj at random, after looking at more than 1800 mug shots. >> i don't know if i really picked out the right person. >> reporter: 20+ years in, dan is still leaving out bombshells, recently interviewing a juror in the case. >> in my heart of hearts, i knew he was innocent. >> reporter: the jury had been sequestered for 3 days, and she to hold dan she only voted

guilty, because of peer pressure. >> what you are essentially saying to me is that jj was convicted, not necessarily, because of the facts, or the evidence, but because the jury was tired and wanted to go home is that true? >> i would have to say, yes, i think that that is the truth, yes. >> in 2021, with the help of dan, jj was granted clemency by former new york governor, andrew cuomo. the story is not told in the first ever original podcast years produced by nbc news studios, titled, letters from sing sing. dan and jj join us now. guys, it is great to have you here. so, jj, 'm looking at a number here, 23 years, eight months, seven days that you spent at sing sing for a crime, you say you did not commit. i'm also looking at the case against you. no physical evidence, no forensic evidence, an alibi, your mother, your then girlfriend saying you are home at the time of the shooting, all based on what we now know is pretty flimsy eyewitness

accounts. how did they convict you in the first place, when you look back at it? >> well that is a question that we are still trying to figure out. like, in terms of how they convicted me, they created a story, and they had all of their witnesses aligned with that story. and even when that occurred, you have a gentleman that came into the courtroom, testifying, saying that she knew it was me all the time, didn't pick me at the lineup and she was asked to select me in the courtroom and she selected a juror. >> you have almost 24 years of your life taken from you. what was it like as you set up at sing sing, knowing you didn't do this, and trying to say how can i appeal this? how can i get out of here? i can i prove that i didn't do this? >> it was a very difficult situation. very hard to fathom, very hard to deal with, and live with, but the reality is is that, you know, no matter what we o through in life, we have a purpose, and when we have

people that we love, that believe in us, and that we want to get back to, we will survive whatever we go through. >> and what prompted you to send dan that letter? >> hope, really. a friend of mine was being interviewed, dan was interviewing david willis, in another homicide of a conviction that occurred in 1990, and based on the relationship that was being developed, between both david, and dan, i decided to give it a shot. and see if he would listen. >> so, dan, you have taken a very close look, over 20 years at all of the evidence, you have shed new light on this case. is there any doubt in your mind, knowing everything you know, that jj is innocent of a crime? >> the quick answer is no, but what i think i would encourage everyone to do, now that all of these episodes are available, is to listen for themselves, because it is not a question of whether he is innocent or not, this is a cup of water that is

not an elephant. and so, when people download this podcast, letters from sing sing, they listened all the episodes, they will come to their own conclusion. nobody needs to believe me. the facts are what they are, that is why this is so much bigger than just jj velasquez. this is about all of us, this is about a system that needs to acknowledge truth. acknowledge facts. and when they don't, all of us are in danger. >> so, this podcast comes out against the backdrop of a raging debate in the country about law and order, about policing, defund the police, about rising crime rates and the like. and it is clear that we've got some bad actors in the story. what have you learned? what are you trying to stay say? you said facts are facts. but it is against the backdrop of this debate. what are you trying to say about policing, and terminal

justice in this country? >> is a very insightful question, and it is a very nuanced answer that we don't have the time for. but what i can tell you is that the narrative that exists in society about people who are incarcerated is incorrect. there are not prisons full of jeffrey dahmer's and ted bundy's. there are prisons full of people who have made mistakes, when they were young people, that have grown, they have been educated, they are not all innocent, like jj, but what jj did for me, as an innocent person is open the door into the humanity that exists inside of prisons and mass incarceration. for people, like jj, who are innocent, it is just tell. i mean, at least if cage for 23 years, seven months and eight days for something that you provably did not do and no one in power is doing anything about it. >> right >> it's astonishing to me.

>> so that takes me to the question i want to ask you brother j.j. >> sure. >> you talked about hope and talked about humanity. how do you -- or how did you keep hate from taking root in your spirit? >> that's really a good question i honestly didn't know hate until i was incarcerated i didn't learn about hate until i got caught in the system, but i knew that hate would take over my humanity if i allowed it to thrive inside of me, so i had to fight back, and that's not just for me that's for the people that i love and the people that believe in me. and it's for the overall betterment of society. you know, individuals that are wrongfully convicted coming home bitter doesn't serve a purpose in this world. but coming home and sharing our stories and sharing our realities so that we can put an end to this or at least diminish the aspect of it continuing to occur on the level that it does,

i think that that's much more important than thriving on hate, right? i think love is the solution >> and that's what he taught me, 20 years i've met j.j. december 5th, 2002, it's now 2023, and i have learned more from him and gotten more from him than he has ever gotten from me >> so j.j., we mentioned in the summer of 2021 you received clemency from the new york governor here's the moment when j.j. got that news. >> you're being transferred. >> yeah. >> you don't know? >> no. >> you know where 50 overbrook road is in new york. >> absolutely. >> that's where you're going, bro. >> thank you, man. >> god bless you you deserve it [ applause ]

>> hello jacob, what's up i got a surprise for you you know for 23 years i've been telling you that i'm going to come home one day, right well, now i can officially tell you, i'm coming home next month. you all right? that is the best birthday gift in the world, huh? your birthday's tomorrow, happy birthday, my son. >> >> jj, tell us who you're talking to there and what you were going through in that moment >> i was actually speaking to both of my sons. my oldest son's birthday is august 18th and so i was informed of that in realtime while dan was present on august 17th, which is just a day before, and so i think it was the best gift that i could finally give my son to know that i'm finally coming home when i

left him at 3. i left my youngest at 5 weeks. >> wow 5 weeks, so you missed 24 years of their lives. >> how has it been catching up >> i love every minute of it, but at the same token it comes with struggles we're trying to reestablish a relationship that's supposed to be a father and son relationship when we were separated for a quarter of a century you know, pretty much his entire life or their entire lives, so getting to know each other is -- it's a great process, but it's -- i wish it could have happened a lot quicker, you know >> of course >> i met jj when his kids were 8 and 5, and now they're 28 and 25 and they have kids of their own. jj's a grandfather now >> yeah. >> i've seen them grow up. jj used to write me letters when his oldest son was 12 years old saying i'm scared for my son that i'm not home, and he

predicted the future i mean, here's a guy also that i just want to point out that went to the white house last fall, was invited to the white house and publicly had an apology from the president of the united states for what he'd been through. yet he needed a piece of paper from his parole officer in new york to get to d.c. to get that apology. >> we're looking at that video right now of you with president biden. thank you for sharing your story. i hope it impacts -- >> thank you for having me. >> -- cases down the road, and dan, thank you for bringing it to us. all seven episodes of "letters from sing sing" available now. >> thank you both. >> thank you for having us. >> we'll be right back with more "morning joe." lps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after two starter doses.

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time now for a look at the morning papers we start in michigan where the detroit free press reports governor gretchen whitmer has repealed a state law from 1931 that made it a felony to administer most abortions. just months ago michigan voters enshrined abortion rights in the united states constitution while the ban was no longer in effect, democrat lawmakers still wanted it repealed. the governor called it a long overdue step to ensure rights. in kentucky, the lexington herald leader is reporting on senate minority leader mitch mcconnell's silence in the wake

of donald trump's indictment there was speculation mcconnell was waiting to comment until after specific charges were unveiled now it seems likely he won't respond until he is face-to-face with reporters once he returns to public peappearances. he had an accident recently. a spokesperson said yesterday, quote, if we issue a statement, we will let everyone know. and in california, the los angeles times reports that after three months of relentless snowfall, the state is now facing a flood risk from that snow melting, which could last for months officials warn that runoff from melting snow will send torrents of water rushing from the peaks of the sierra nevada to the flilf flf foothills and valleys thousands of feet below. the biggest threat will arrive once temperatures reach the 90s for an extended are period of time we'll be watching that that does it for u