know, if they screw it up, we'll be all right, right? anyway, senior reporter -- leave you with that note on a friday morning. senior politics reporter on "axios," eugene scott, thank you very much. thank you for getting up with "way too early" with us on this friday morning "morning joe" starts right now what we did was the only logical thing to do after a session defined by extreme silencing of representatives of this body, a session defined by multiple moments, in which the attempt to bring up gun violence was immediately, "out of order." >> that was your 20 minutes. >> this does not seem like america. to expel voices of opposition and dissent is a signal of authoritarianism, and it is very

dangerous. i hope that as a nation watches, that we put this light on this to say that this should sound the alarm across the nation, that we are entering into very dangerous territory. >> one of the two democrats in tennessee expelled after participating in a gun violence protest on the floor of the statehouse we're going to have much more on this partisan punishment just ahead. meanwhile, on capitol hill, one of donald trump's most vocal allies in congress sends a subpoena for the -- >> this isn't going to work well for jim jordan the prosecutor is going to explain why he wrote a book saying that, actually, d.a. bragg didn't go after donald trump aggressively enough. but, you know, if you have them, smoke 'em, jimmy. >> yeah. this could backfire on jim jordan we'll explain.

and we'll dig into the bombshell report exposing lavish vacations taken by supreme court justice clarence thomas, all paid for by a gop mega donor. >> boy, willie, the clarence thomas stuff keeps coming out. of course, if this had been lain kagan or justice sotomayor, somebody on the left, the right would be squawking like crazy. here with clarence thomas, it's just one breach of ethical conduct after another, stepping over one line, then another, then another i guess there's just nothing that can be done. >> and for decades it's been going on for decades i had the same thought, joe. for a party that likes to talk about wealthy overlords controlling people who make decisions, see george soros, for example, this story actually has that, which is someone who is paying a supreme court justice -- we don't have

evidence it influences decisions or anything lick ke that -- but the very least, it needs to be looked into and feels unethical, if not illegal at this point. along with joe, willie and me, we have former white house press secretary, now an msnbc host, jen psaki. pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson white house editor for "politico," sam stein. doing double duty today. >> great job one of the greatest episodes of "way too early" i've seen. >> it was fabulous. >> i do what i can, guys i do what i can. >> he's just a humble servant. >> we also have with us the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. and founder of the conservative website the bulwark, and author of "how the right lost its mind," oh boy, charlie sykes is with us this morning. >> reverend sharpton, i'm so glad you're here i'm a simple man you know that.

i fell off the turnip truck outside of 30 rock a couple of years ago and brushed the dirt off and walked upstairs, and phil griffin needed somebody to polish his shoes so i got a job. it's way beyond my pay grade to figure out, why is it that two of the lawmakers got expelled in tennessee yesterday, but one didn't i'm a simple man can you explain that to me i'm trying to pick up -- i'm not good in sudoku, so sometimes i don't pick up trends and i don't see where things are going maybe you can help me out with what happened yesterday and why one was allowed to remain in and two were expelled. >> well, phil griffin told me when you fell off the turnip truck, you didn't bump your head i think you can figure it out with me. that is, clearly, one was white, two were black

all three engaged in protests. legitimate protest around gun control. because six people in tennessee, right there in nashville, in a christian school, were killed. three of them 9 years old. there were protests and rightfully so around tennessee, around gun laws. these three legislatures decided they would also add those protests in the session, and they were expelled, but only the two young blacks were expelled the white female was maintained. to her credit, she stood up and said, "this is clearly about race." so when you have a legislature that is clearly conservative, overwhelmingly republican, and white male, that are not only saying, "we're not going to deal with the question of gun control, even though we've had

mass killings in this state, and one as recent as ten days ago, we're also going to mix race in at the same time," if this does not raise the skoeconcern of us nationally, and i've been in conversations with people all night around nashville, i don't know what will this is dangerous when it comes to gun control, and we are talking about babies 9-year-olds were killed. they were protesting about babies i heard someone talk about how, decades ago, julian bond was excluded in georgia over the vietnam war. we're talking about babies killed in their own backyard, and they are going to not only not rise to the occasion, they're going to punish those that do. >> this is their offense, of course compared to 9/11 by a -- >> january 6th. >> january 6th, i mean by a speaker who obviously didn't see any of the coverage on january 6th it's outrageous. everything about this is

outrageous gene robinson, we said yesterday that the gop, they were making a -- they've become a parody of themselves on the national stage and the local stage. then, my god, is there a worse look for the tennessee legislature, to expel two young black men by tell the white woman, "it's all right you can stay in here with us." >> they couldn't help themselves, could they >> no, it's unbelievable. >> you know, when people tell you who they are, believe them so, yes, i believe this is one of the most racist things i've seen recently, and that's saying a lot. >> yeah. >> i can think of no better way to energize the tennessee democratic party, to energize people concerned about civil rights in tennessee and in the nation, and to paint the

majority in the texas -- in the tennessee legislature has not only -- tone deaf doesn't say it -- not only blind to what happened in nashville just a few days ago, but, frankly, just flat out so racist that they couldn't stop themselves from expelling the two young black men and not expelling the white woman who did the exact same thing. this is today's republican party, and the nation is watching the nation will take note, and i hope the nation will act >> just for a little historical perspective, guys, you might say, well, i guess this happens from time to time. no, actually, in the state of tennessee, lawmakers have been expelled, according to the newspaper there, twice since the civil war. one were sexual misconduct another time in the '80s for

accepting a bribe. republican ledgislators in tennessee voted to expel two black democrats in the statehouse from their protest on the chamber floor against gun violence the protests on the floor are forbidden. justin pearson and justin jones were expelled from the body, while representative gloria johnson, who is white, survived exp expulsion. here's what jones and pearson had to say before their expulsion votes. >> today is a lynch mob assembled to not lynch me but our democratic process. >> we called for you all to ban assault weapons, and you respond with an assault on democracy let's talk about expulsion for years, one of your colleagues who was an admitted child molester sat in this chamber, no expulsion. one member sits in this chamber

who was found guilty of domestic violence no expulsion we had a former speaker sit in this chamber who is now under federal investigation. no expulsion we have a member still under federal investigation. no expulsion we had a member be in another member's chair in this chamber, no expulsion in fact, they're in leadership in the governor's administration so, once again, what you're saying to us, that you're trying to put us on trial, i'll say what you're really putting on trial is the state of tennessee. what you're really showing for the world is holding up a mirror

to a state that is going back to some dark, dark roots, a state in which the ku klux klan was founded is now attempting another power grab by silencing the two youngest black representatives and one of the only democratic women in this body >> dr. king taught us that, sometimes, there is a consciousness above rule, above what you might say is law. and the true forms of protest is non-violence disobedience. for less than a few minutes, we and you are seeking to expel district 86's representation from this house. in a country that was built on a protest. in a country that was built on a protest! i can say to folks who are

worried about whether or not, as one sign said, am i next i can say to you, the movement for justice can never die. because the heart for justice can never be killed. we've got good news that sunday always comes resurrection is upon us. and it is a prophesy it is a prophesy that came out of the cotton fields it's a prophesy that came out of the lynching tree. it's a prophesy that still lives in each and every one of us in order to make the state of tennessee the place that it ought to be. and so i still got to hope because i know we are still here, and we will never quit >> representative justin pearson. >> incredible. >> speaking yesterday. to remind people what happened, this was last woeek, march 30th. the representatives will, along with gloria johnson, who we'll

speak to in a moment, went into the well of the house, into a megaphone, and were protesting the shooting at the covenant church the highway patrol said there were no arrests made, no property damage, nothing like we saw, obviously, january 6th, which is the comparison being made by some republicans here. it was, by definition, a peaceful protest it may have broken the house rules, yes there are ways to deal with that in terms of punishment but to expel them and to overturn the will of the voters who put them there is something else entirely. >> and, again, as a member of a legislative body, i can tell you, procedural rules get broken when they do, you're asked to stand down or the sergeant in arms takes you out of the chamber. >> there are many steps before expulsion. >> i actually saw that happen on the floor of congress. i know, this expulsion is terrible i will say, just extraordinary

speeches by both of the representatives who were expelled again, i think you listen, and you find out the people that committed domestic violence -- >> sexual abuse. >> -- and other abuse, allowed to stay in there even if you urinate in a fellow member's chair, you get promoted in tennessee to the leadership but if you protest 9-year-olds getting slaughtered in a christian school, well, they kick you out. >> joining us now, tennessee state representative gloria johnson, who was one of the three who was not expelled yesterday. thank you so much for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it i guess the question for you this morning is, what worries you the most about what happened in the tennessee statehouse yesterday, and what gill give g the most hope? >> well, you know, it was just a travesty the process was not -- there was

no process there were no rules. we tried to get some information on what the rules were going to be, what the process was going to be. we got nothing and a little bit of direction they would not allow us to bring in any video of our own. however, when we get there, they make a motion to show their video that we had not seen we don't know who took it. we didn't know how they edited it they promised it was only someone from the floor that day. turns out it was not it was films from other things we were lied to. we were misinformed. it is scary that this is what's happening to our democratic process. you know, that's the biggest thing. and that two young men, who are brilliant young men, and they are passionate, and they care deeply about their community to see, you know, people's -- to

see how they were questioned in a different way from me. i had some republican colleagues say things like, "well, you know, they didn't show contrition," or "the younger generation has a different way of speaking. they have a different way of addressing things. i am a 60-year-old schoolteacher. i might talk a little more level tone and that sort of thing, but it was very clear what this was about. >> representative johnson, reverend al sharpton first, let me salute you for standing up, saying what this is about, in terms of you not being excluded and the others were, and that was race. i think people around the country get a lot of hope from you standing up, having that kind of courage. let me ask this. do you see any legal or other ways that could lead to the reinstatement of your two

colleagues, and do you see a path forward in terms of dealing with laws around guns in the state of tennessee we are talking about reacting to 9-year-olds being killed at school i don't think we want to miss the forest for the trees do you see a pathway toward teateal i dealing with the gun legislation the three of you advocated, and do you see a way of reinstating these lawmakers that we feel were unjustifiably removed. >> i think there might be a pathway forward. i think it is going to be baby steps. i don't really trust that my republican colleagues are going to pass anything that is near enough i think we can take steps. the only reason that's going to happen is because of that younger eneration. they have showed up every day by the thousands. they're staying on this. they're not going to stop. they're going to keep showing up

and speaking up until there's progress and i am -- i do have a lot of hope when it comes to justin pearson and justin jones, both coming back to the legislature if their county commission or metro council appoints them, there's a little bit of a legal glitch there there's a disagreement about whether they can come back in the 113th general assembly or if they have to wait until '24 in the 114th, but lawyers i've talked to think that there is no difference between which session they come back they could very well be reappointed by their locals in the next few weeks. >> representative, thank you for being with us again this morning. we appreciate it sounds like you got a free ride yesterday. 65 of your fellow members voted to expel you 66 would have expelled you, so you survived by one vote but you started to get into it

there. i'm curious for people watching, if this does happen, if these two colleagues of yours are thrown out of the house and the will of the voters are overturnedr districts, one from memphis, one from nashville, or what is the recourse exactly here? >> yes immediately, that would be an appointment from the metro council in nashville or county commission in shelby county. then, within a few months, there would be a special election for that seat. we're expecting those young men to come back that is my hope. >> tennessee state representative gloria johnson, thank you very much for coming on "morning joe" this morning. we appreciate it. >> i want to go to charlie sykes. charlie, you know, i had somebody call me yesterday and say, "well, you know, you look at wisconsin, and that seems to be -- you put that in the good silo that's where we're going in the

right direction. you look at tennessee, that shows where this country is going in the wrong direction actually, the two go together. it's just what we talked about this is a republican party that is so radically disassociated from where the middle of america is, where middle class americans are, where middle america is, where the midwest is, where the upper midwest is, where swing voters, independent voters, wisconsin, pennsylvania, michigan, georgia, arizona, every place that counts. i guarantee you all those voters see this, and they go, "my god, they're not even pretending they're not bigots they're not pretending anymore they're kicking these people out because they were upset about 9-year-old girls being slaughtered in a christian schoolhouse. i think the two go together, charlie. i think wisconsin is the result

of 100 tennessees before it. >> and there will be more. joe, my problem with this whole story is the stupidity it burns what were the republicans in tennessee hoping to accomplish here they look horrible they have made superstars out of the tennessee three. these are three extraordinarily impressive and eloquent figures that you never would have heard of if it weren't for this vindictive retaliation by the republicans, who decided, we have a supermajority and we can do this. of course, that's the same story in wisconsin, where the republicans have a super t majority and why they're quietly talking about, "hey, we could impeach liberal supreme court justices if they make rulings we don't like." >> yeah. >> legislators i talked to say, "we're not going to do that. it would be chaotic, futile and

stupid." but we've seen this pattern before >> yes. >> where the base demands this kind of action all you need is one tweet or bleat out of mar-a-lago where donald trump says, "why aren't the rhinos in wisconsin expelling members of the legislature? why aren't they impeaching jus justices?" what happens they cave in this story out of tennessee is extraordinary to me because it is such a case of political malpractice. >> yeah. >> you think of american politics there are -- i mean, not to be disrespectful, but to be a minority member, a member of the minority party in the tennessee lower house is a pretty obscure position as a result of what happened yesterday, all three of these individuals are now superstars they are martyrs. >> correct. >> exactly. >> they are everywhere their message is going to be amplified in a way that would have been absolutely impossible

without this republican overreach. so the stupidity is at ramming speed right now. there's no indication that republicans in wisconsin or tennessee are engaging in any kind of they're doubling down on abortion, on attacks on democracy, on extreme positions on gun control i have to say, i would love to be in the room where republicans are talking about this and they're explaining why this is a smart, intelligent thing to do that advances their agenda because i can't figure it out at all. >> like you said, the stupidity burns. >> really good way of putting it. >> you have, again, two members who were in relative obscurity in the lower house in the tennessee legislature, statehouse. >> right. >> mika, who are now, again, political stars, for good reasons. we've looked at them and gone, "oh, my gosh, these guys, great speeches they have a future they're dynamic.

the idiots in tennessee in the majority martyred them in front of the world this is going tocontinue to energize younger voters. it is going to energize black voters going into '24. it is going to energize everybody that republicans don't want to energize watch these two members go out they're going to start raising money for causes that are going to help democrats and hurt republicans. >> yeah. >> mika, just talking about the straight line from wisconsin down to tennessee, as charlie said so eloquently, what happened in tennessee was pure political negligence you draw a straight line there's a "wall street journal" editorial page from yesterday, the same negligence that would have wisconsin republicans keep a law banning abortion, tototal -- almost a total abortion ban, from 1849 on the books going into the election this week. they were warned

they knew it was coming. they couldn't get out of the way. it's the same thing in tennessee. they really are pushing. they just keep pushing their party and future chances over a cliff. >> yesterday, the sptupidity of it burns that's a great line. it wasn't lost on the young people who showed up yesterday. >> yeah. >> who were, you know, thinking about what to write on their signs, you know, gun reform, democracy, we're for our democracy. they want -- one of them wrote, "what the --" and i'll replace the word with "heck. what is going on you all are so stupid. >> what is going on? >> it is political malpractice because this will come back to bite them. they have created three political heros who really stand up for the will of the people as opposed to right-wing craziness. >> you have poll after poll

after poll after poll. >> i mean, read 'em. president biden is condemning the actions of the tennessee house of representatives. he released a statement reading in part this today's expulsion of lawmakers who engaged in peaceful protest is shocking, undemocratic, and without precedent. rather than debating the merits of the issue, these republican lawmakers have chosen to punish, silence, and expel duly elective representatives of the people of tennessee. the president making it very clear where he stands on this. >> jen psaki, not really hard, also, to draw a straight line to this and election deniers, people who say, it doesn't matter who got elected doesn't matter who gets the most votes. if we have the power, we're going to do whatever he want to do we'll throw out elections any time we feel like it yesterday, two of those three elections thrown out. >> that's exactly right. i mean, i think what is so interesting here, and charlie really hit the nail on the head,

is you have to be careful in politics what you shine a light on what the republicans did here is they shine a light on the superstars, as everybody has already said, at a time in tennessee where you had 1,000 people, kids, protesting in the streets to gun violence. kids who were in elementary school, middle school, just a little older, because they're outraged and sick of it. what they are doing here, they are empowering the movement for more gun reforms, not the opposite short-term gain for them with what they did, which is outrageous yesterday, but a long-term potential benefit for those who are advocates of more action to address gun violence, which is not what they intended. i'm certain. >> let me just adhere, if i can. part of the story to me at least is that the republican party and states specifically, but nationally, too, is in the closed off ecosystem they consume from similar news outlets, but they're also not

really threatened electorally because they gerrymandered themselves so when you're a state-based republican in tennessee, you don't feel, necessarily, the backlash that you, yourself, are unleashing through actions like this i mean, if you looked at the numbers and the votes yesterday, it 75-25. that's a huge gulf in power there. it allows them to do these types of actions that i think we all agree are on the table and will probably end up backfiring i guess my question for eugene is, you know, if you are a democrat watching this, obviously, you feel great in the moment you think, you know, this is energizing for our base. it is elevating these young lawmakers to heights it will backfire on republicans. but isn't that coupled with this sort of resignation that the system itself is so gerrymandered and, in fact, rigged to certain outcomes in tennessee, that, yeah, we could talk about, you know, gun control laws or, you know, fundraising from this moment,

but things probably are not going to change. >> well, not in the short term, sam, but i think what this does is, i think, energize the democratic party in tennessee, the base it shines a light on how important these local elections a are. i think it provides a way for democrats and progressives in tennessee to organize and to move forward in a way that republicans will not like in the future so, no, immediately, it doesn't -- there's nothing they can do 75-25, that's, you know, pretty clear. but look at those numbers, you know, five years, six years, ten years from now i'm betting they're going to be different. i'm betting that the sort of ground roots organizing that you

need to change that ratio has just got an turbo boost from what republicans did i want to point out one other thing. gloria johnson, who was so eloquent on this program earlier, one reason she cares so much about gun violence is that she was a teacher. she survived a school shooting in knoxville, in i think 2008/2009. so this is a -- this is an intensely personal issue for her. it should be a personal issue, i think, for everyone. the tennessee legislature has not heard the last of it >> you know, the thing is, there is -- and i agree with gene -- this is a moment that's just going to expand out. charlie, we look at january 6th. before that, the election denying, right everybody was fretting about that, for good damn reason it ends up the election deniers

lost all the swing seats january 6th, it hurt republicans. again, it keeps going in this straight line. you can look at a former president talking about terminating the constitution he still, after indictments, after saying he wants to terminate the constitution, after baseball bats against d.a.'s heads, you actually have -- you actually have republicans still lining up behind him you have an abortion law from 1849, when zachary taylor was president of the united states in wisconsin again, it's all the same thing, the same stupidity you've got republicans, like, going up against 90% of americans when you talk about universal background checks on all gun purchases. 90% of americans they're on the wrong side there. again, it's the extremism. you look at -- like, i could not believe what i read last night the lawyers for fox news in the

dominion case, just to show how, again, just -- this entire world is in this bubble that has no bearing to reality they're trying to stop -- if i understood the pleadings correctly -- any mention of january 6th in the proceedings. >> yeah. >> because january 6th, just the mentioning of january 6th would, they believe, would be harmful to their case. that would be like saying you can't talk about pearl harbor. you can't talk about 9/11. if you're talking about one of the major events of our time, even the mere mentioning of it, being discriminatory against your case and hurting you, that suggests, again, a different set of facts that people are living by, and you wrap that up in this republican party all the craziness that we've been talking about, it's crushing them at the ballot box year after year after year

>> it is almost as if they are addicted to losing look, i'm sitting here in ozake county, wisconsin, used to be a 68% republican county. now, it is evenly divided. we've been telling ourselves for some time, nothing matters donald trump could shoot somebody in the middle of fifth avenue, and people would still vote for him some will. but this is the problem with the republican party it is in this bubble it is in this hermetically sealed, alternative reality, so they don't really understand, i think, how they are looking. every one of the issues you just mentioned, they are doubling down on election denialism if they go with donald trump, they're going to be looking back and airing the grievances of 2020, opposed to talking about the issues that they claim to care about, right? the issue of abortion, a six-week ban down in florida legislation? wisc

wisconsin, doesn't include rape and incest ron desantis signing a bill that allows people to carry weapons without a permit or background check. these are not issues that appeal to middle america. yet, because they're so focused on their base, because they are so beholden to the fever swamps, they cannot breakaway from this. you're seeing that you saw it in wisconsin this year you're seeing it in tennessee, as well. you look at the tennessee legislature. first of all, take a picture sometime of that legislature it looks like something out of 1947 you know, all of these old white guys -- i'll raise my hand here -- sitting around this transformation of the party is really extraordinary because, joe, help me with this do you remember when the tennessee republican party was moderate, repubasonable centris? it had alexander, bob corker,

impressive guys. look where they are now. >> howard baker. >> howard baker. >> you had people that actually -- they actually sent people to washington that ran washington it was great it was great for the people of tennessee. it was really good for the republican party bill frisk they had people in the senate. >> look now. >> yeah, who were conservative but, at the same time, they didn't wrap themselves around extremist positions or theorthes charlie, thank you for being with us. we greatly appreciate it >> thank you, charlie. >> willie, we talk about these trump republicans living in an alternate reality. then we brought up from time to time -- i don't like to bring up other networks -- but we brought up from time to time when we had to, some of the extremist positions that really are

warping the political views of too many americans for instance, fox news saying that u.s. army helicopters that were wilbeing used in afghanist were going to be used against people in america that voted against donald trump that the fbi was going to come and kick down doors and go after people who voted for donald trump. all these lies, the extremist attacks on our united states military that is hurting recruiting right now because of their big lies continuing to attack the men and women in uniform i want to read this to you it is shocking to me fox news has asked a judge to prohibit references to the january 6th insurrection at the dominion trial quote, any reference to the capitol riot will only unfairly prejudice the jurgenst fox let me say that again. any reference to the capitol

riot will only unfairly prejudice the jury against fox i mean, this is -- this is almost an admission that they believe reasonable jury members would blame them for january 6th. it's a -- it's as incredible as if msnbc said to a judge, "you can't member 9/11" or cnn said, "you can't mention pearl harbor." just go back this is so crazy and it continues you have this case about election denialism, and this is being brought in i have to say, i find that hard to believe. >> surprised. >> it's almost as if there lawyers representing fox news in this case know if the obvious line is drawn between the lies

told on their network and elsewhere about the 2020 election being stolen, in this case, dominion's voting machines being used, connected to satellites that changed the votes from donald trump to joe biden, whatever the conspiracy theory is -- i've lost track -- if a jury drew that line, it'd be obvious they participated in that we'll see if a judge allows that to be excluded from the case, but it would seem like what is actually at the heart of this case in terms of dominion. >> yeah. still ahead on "morning joe," house republicans rally to aid donald trump after his indictment issuing a subpoena for a former prosecutor in the manhattan district attorney's office who was involved in a criminal probe of the former president. jackie alemany joins us with new reporting from "the washington post." plus, the latest on the "wall street journal" reporter imprisoned by the kremlin, as hundreds of russian journalists and activists reportedly demand

his immediate release. also ahead, a new report from the white house largely blames the trump administration for the chaotic u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan those details are ahead. we'll discuss all of that with ranking member of the house intelligence committee, congressman jim himes. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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jim jordan has a subpoena for mike pomerantz jordan said his former position makes him relative and necessary to the probe into bragg's office bragg responded to the subpoena of pomerantz quote, the house gop continues to attempt to undermine an active investigation and ongoing criminal case with an unprecedented campaign of harassment and intimidation. repeated efforts to weaken state and local law enforcement actions are an abuse of power and will not deter us from our duty to uphold the law joining us now, congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany. good morning give us a little more of your reporting on this, if you will, and remind people who mark

pomerantz is he is on this show with a new book, where he criticized alvin bragg for not moving faster in the prosecutions of donald trump. >> that's right. he resigned last year due to frustrations he was serving under alvin bragg as a prosecutor and felt the investigations into former president donald trump were not moving fast enough he resigned, again, out of frustration. in his book, "donald trump versus the people," he outlines this idea that everyone on his legal team, the team that was investigating potential financial crimes that trump committed, harbored no doubts about the fact that donald trump committed a crime or multiple crimes which is potentially what jim jordan might hear from pomerantz if he decides to appear before the committee. he's a ripe target as they're trying to bolster this case, that the d.a.'s office has

weaponized the judicial system against conservatives. >> yeah. pomerantz criticism of bragg is not that he was being too hard on donald trump, it was that he wasn't being hard enough or moving fast enough legal analyst andrew weissmann said this last night about the subpoena >> when i heard that today, i was thinking, jim jordan is going to have another sort of, you know, dud on his hands so far, that has really backfired for him. putting pomerantz, who used to lead this case, in front of the american people, we know what he is going to say because he wrote a book the book was unauthorized. it's just his version. there's controversy about whether or not it is ak ccaccur but this is what he says, donald trump is guilty and should have been prosecuted long ago. >> the picture doesn't get better for trump if he talks. >> it is going to be an odd thing for a republican to elicit to the american people

a part of me was like, bring it on >> jackie, what does congressman jordan hope to get out of the hearings, the weaponization committee, other than slowing down the process and gumming it up a bit, which obviously hasn't worked because the former president was indicted a couple days ago. >> that is often the strategy here from conservatives, this idea of muddying the waters by really throwing anything into the mix that might provide republicans with an opportunity to criticize investigations into donald trump but jordan stated that he believes that pomerantz's book, the pressure it might have put on bragg, bolsters their case, that bragg acted out of political motivations opposed to moving because of -- for legal reasons as a prosecutor. but i think that, you know, the point that a lot of democrats are now making, that it is a

double-edged sword here, that if marc pomerantz does testify and provide documents or records, he'll make this case that donald trump is guilty of several crimes, then it is going to be doing the opposite of jim jordan, what jim jordan hoped to be doing of course, i should note, i'm in the middle of pomerantz book right now, but he does point out and outline some of the reasons why bragg might have decided not to bring the case earlier. he lists through some of the hurdles, some of which bragg has already addressed. such as, elevating these charges from a misdemeanor to a felony also, bringing forward a tarnish witness in, michael cohen. if pomerantz were to appear before the committee, he'd have to discuss the fall array of what he has already publicly

said. >> jackie, it's sam stein here again, i was mentioning it last block, but this goes to the idea that republicans are living in a closed off ecosystem, where they think bringing in someone who is on the record saying trump should be prosecuted and committed more crimes than he',g him in as a key witness. my question is a technical one will the subpoena work could pomerantz say, this is an ongoing investigation. i'm not going to prejudice it. if he fights the subpoena, what will republicans do after that >> that's what he is being advised to do right now. he's previously told the judiciary committee that he wouldn't be providing records or documents when they initially sent him a request this was prior to the subpoena the general council from the manhattan d.a.'s office advise that pomerantz not cooperate with this. it is longstanding policy,

federally and locally, to not divulge details about an ongoing investigation, which is why this subpoena is unprecedented. although, not as unprecedented and escalatory as if the subpoena went to alvin bragg obviously, pomerantz no longer works for the district attorney's office, but there is a tricky case. he has spoken publicly about the investigation. he divulged details in an unauthorized book about the investigation. that's the argument i think you're going to hear republicans beat the drum on going forward pomerantz has no reason to flout the subpoena, though it is coming from a chairman who he, himself, flouted a subpoena from the january 6th committee just last year. >> "the washington post"'s jackie alemany, thank you for being on. >> thank you. >> sam stein, thank you, as well good to have you there's more news. the chair of the senate judiciary committee is promising the panel will take action following a damning report on

supreme court justice clarence thomas a lengthy piece published yesterday by "pro pupublica" detailed trips thomas took nearly two decades, which were made for by a republican mega donor as "the new york times" points out, there is no formal code of conduct for the supreme court regarding such trips but thomas never reported any of them in his financial disclosures, which justices are required to do under the ethics and government act of 1978 it says any gift of more than $415 must be reported to avoid even a, quote, appearance of impropriety. according to "pro pulica," 2019, the thomasthomases took a priva

to c a tour costing half a milln dollars. this wasn't thomas' only trip on the super yacht. he took an extended cruise in new zealand a decade ago crow said in a statement he's never sought to influence the justice. the supreme court, meanwhile, did not immediately respond to requests for comment justice thomas did not respond to "pro pulica's" questions. yesterday, committee chair dick durbin wrote, quote, the highest court in the land shouldn't have the lowest ethical standards adding, this behavior is simply inconsistent with the ethical standards the american people expect of any public servant, let alone a justice on the supreme court. jen psaki, no laws were fwbroke but your thoughts?

>> no laws were broken is small solace to most people in the american public who are waking up and thinking, what on earth a supreme court justice took this nine-day cruise to indonesia that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars i think, mika, looking at just this week of stories for the republicans, obviously, we've talked a lot this morning already about what happened in tennessee. but you have donald trump, the former president, thinking he is above the law and should not be -- succumb to the justice system everyone else is. you have fox news, where they are continuing to provide lies knowingly to the public, thinking the public is dumb. then you have a supreme court justice living by a different set of rules this is the kind of stuff the public looks at and thinks, this is out of whack. this is not what we banwant the pillars of government to be representing that's why i think this story could actually stick with people the supreme court has already gotten popular it has lost popularity the last

couple years that's why there has been a movement, in part because of dobbs, but also because of stuff like this. it's why there has been a movement for court expansion and a lot of discussion from a number of democrats. >> i think we also must keep in mind that jennie thomas, clarence's wife, has been questioned about whether she was influencing her husband. now, we have a question of her husband getting hundreds of thousands of dollars over many years from crow, a big republican donor the issue really should not be whether or not crow influenced him. the issue is why he didn't disclose it. if we're not going to set up situations where there are penalties and some level of punishment, if not more serious, when you do not disclose what you supposed to disclose, then what are we talking about?

we're not talking about a donald trump who thinks he is above the law. we're talking about a man who writes the law and won't disclose it. i think, gene, when we look at this, it's as bad as it gets i think we shouldn't over jump the runway lhere by saying, did crow influence that does matter, but the first thing is, how do you let a justice get away with not disclosing what he got that was valued in the hundreds of thousands of dollars how do we act like that's all right? >> we don't, rev i mean, look, this is a justice of the u.s. supreme court who interprets the law, who knows the aw the law is very clear. he has worked for the federal government he's been a public servant for a long time. since before he was a supreme court justice. he absolutely knows that this

had to be disclosed, yet, he didn't disclose it especially the travel, this travel by public jet you live in, you know, in and around washington, you know a lot of people who work for the federal government you know that it's one thing if you have a wealthy friend and you go visit and they let you stay in the guest room or the guest house for a few days that's, you know, gray area. but the travel by private jet is absolutely -- there's nothing gray about it. this should have been disclosed. it never should have been accepted by a justice of the supreme court. but this is really, really ugly. i think people will get this i think people will understand that this is, frankly, corrupt >> all right we're going to get back to this. in a moment, at the top of the hour, we'll bring you the

latest on the major breaking news out of the tennessee statehouse we'll be joined by justin jones, one of the two lawmakers who were expelled at the statehouse yesterday. both of them just happen to be black. we'll be right back. (man) what if my type 2 diabetes takes over? (woman) what if all i do isn't enough? or what if i can do diabetes differently? (avo) now you can with once-weekly mounjaro. mounjaro helps your body regulate blood sugar, and mounjaro can help decrease how much food you eat. 3 out of 4 people reached an a1c of less than 7%.

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this is not a temple this is a place where we're supposed to wrestle for our democracy and wrestle ideas and give voice to 78,000 constituents each of us represents but for so long, this body, drunk with power, has modelled for the world what we know as nothing less than authoritarianism. >> we broke a house rule because we're fighting for kids who are dying from gun violence, and people in our communities who want to see an end to the proliferation of weaponry in our

community, and that leads to our expulsion? this is what happens when you lose democracy this is what we are fighting against and must stand upgislats and people across the country. it's starting in tennessee, but it won't end here. >> those are the two democrats expelled from the tennessee statehouse yesterday it was partisan retribution for a protest last week that came in response to the deadly mass shooting at an elementary school in nashville we'll have much more on this, where they walked up to the well of the state capital and protested peacefully. also ahead this hour, new reporting on the leak of classified documents that detailed secret plans by nato allies to build up the ukrainian military it's one of the topics we will discuss with ranking member of the house intelligence committee, congressman jim himes. welcome back to "morning joe. jen psaki, eugene robinson and

reverend al sharpton are still with us. joining the discussion, "washington post" associate editor and pulitzer prize winning journalist jonathan capk capehart also with us, author and presidential historian doris kearns goodwin good to have you both this hour. so republican legislators in tennessee voted yesterday to expel two democrats, who both happen to be black, from the statehouse, over their protests on the chamber floor against gun violence last week such protests on the floor are forbidden under house rules. they come after a mass shooting in a nashville school that killed six people, including three 9-year-old children. dubbed the tennessee three, democratic representatives justin pearson and justin jones were expelled from the body, while representative gloria

johnson, who is white and did the same thing as those two guys did, walked up and protested, she survived the expulsion here's what jones and pearson had to say before their expulsion votes. >> we called for you all to ban assault weapons, and you respond with an assault on democracy let's talk about expulsion for years, one of your colleagues who was an admitted child molester sat in this chamber. no expulsion one member sits in this chamber who was found guilty of domestic violence no expulsion we had a former speaker sit in this chamber who is now under federal investigation. no expulsion we have a member still under federal investigation, no expulsion.

we had a member pee in another member's chair in this chamber, no expulsion in fact, they're in leadership in the governor's administration so, once again, what you're saying to us, that you're trying to put us on trial, i'll say what you're really putting on trial is the state of tennessee. what you're really showing for the world is holding up a mirror to a state that is going back to some dark, dark roots, a state in which the ku klux klan was founded is now attempting another power grab by silencing the two youngest black representatives and one of the only democratic women in this body >> dr. king taught us that, sometimes, there is a consciousness above rule, above

what you might say is law. and that the true forms of protest is non-violent disobedience for less than a few minutes, we and you are seeking to expel district 86's representation from this house. in a country that was built on a protest. in a country, that was built on a protest! i can say to folks who are worried about whether or not, as one sign said, am i next i can say to you that the movement for justice can never die. because the heart for justice can never be killed. >> some extraordinary words from the representatives. in a country that was built on a protest. >> yeah.

>> again, member sits in the chamber that is guilty of domestic violence. another member sits in that chamber that is under federal investigation. another member, jonathan capehart, sits in that chamber, a member who urinated on another member's chair, he has been elevated to leadership in the tennessee house. of course, you have two of the youngest black members expelled. you have the white representative staying there it is horrific it is shocking it is also, as we mentioned last hour, it is so horrible. it's another example of how the republicans are so extreme they are just -- they've elevated these people to hero status, and they're -- i will say in this case, their racism has only hurt themselves

it will only help these gentlemen and will only help democrats push forward the cause of gun safety. >> you know, when donald trump started his -- good morning, mika and joe when donald trump started his campaign, we watched the dog whistle turn into a full-fledged bull horn in terms of racist rhetoric and white nationalism what we saw yesterday was stuff done in secret and maybe behind the scenes out in the open, with no shame, with no care for potential consequences when i saw the tennessee three and i saw that the vote was happening, part of me thought, the white lady is going to get off. but another part of me thought, you know what? maybe, just maybe, the tennessee l legislature will hear not only those young people who were out

there protesting, trying to save their legislators, but also their very own lives, but maybe they will realize that not just the state of tennessee was watching not just the united states of america was watching, but the world was watching you know, american democracy, which is supposed to be the beacon for the world, there in tennessee, it was under full ass assault. when representative jones was ousted, what became like smelling salts for me was the wide margin. he had no chance, no chance at all. then the news came out that representative johnson survived. part of my heart sank because, you know what? they proved me right i hoped that that meant that there would be momentum and that representative pearson would survive. but, of course, tennessee being tennessee, republicans being

republicans, again, proved me right. how on earth can tennessee, can tennessee republicans, can the tennessee house of representatives say what they did was not racist, when the two young black representatives were ousted and the white representative was not and especially when representative johnson said flat out, "the color of my skin is what kept me in the" -- johnson said, "kept me in the house of representatives. >> right. >> listening to those men, representative jones and representative pearson, solidified why i have so much faith and hope in that generation generation z, they have put up with and lived through so much, and they're stepping up to the plate. i hope to see those two men and representative johnson out there showing what leadership at the local level looks like

>> yeah. let's hope of course, the republicans have put them, given them a massive profile, a national profile. this cause is front and center of course, it casts themselves in the worst possible light. you have republicans panicking right now over their extreme positions on abortion and how it's causing -- i mean, ann coulter is lecturing republicans on the need to be moderate on the issue of of abortion "the wall street journal" editorial page is saying, you're going to keep getting destroyed if you don't get reasonable on that issue, others on guns but it is crazy. you know, a couple things, doris. i'd love for you to talk about the history of protest, but i'm reminded, again, of tennessee republicans. i heard jonathan say, of course, tennessee republicans being

tennessee republicans, da, da, da well, it wasn't so long ago that tennessee republicans were lamar alexander, one of the more successful legislatures. senate majority leader howard baker. bob corker but these were republicans who were conservative but also were the type of people that tennessee republicans produced who would go up to washington, d.c., and have a large say in how the country ran itself now, you look and see what's happened this is the most extreme of extreme legislators. >> yeah, you know, it is not just nostalgia to look back at that period of time. that's a period of time when colleagues were colleagues, when there was a decency amongst them that's human nature. what has happened to us is the question i think we need to ask. but i do have a plbelief, and i think this is where history can help us. when you have peaceful protests

and it is met with extreme actions, as it was in voting rights, as it was in segregation, the country then is fired. its conscien jn science food cop that's why the sicivil rights at and voting act was passed. the majority of the country said, this isn't right this isn't fair. what happened in tennessee wasn't right, it wasn't fair not only because it was racist, but it wasn't fair to have the house rule be the decision for the expulsion. i have a feeling now that light can be shined on these other state legislatures and what they're doing, as you're saying, with abortion and gun control. once that light is shined, if the majority begins to have its voice, then nothing can stop it. that's the famous line used when the civil rights act of '64 was passed there is no army more powerful than an idea whose time has come the idea that needs to be spread among the majority of the country is their voice is not

being heard. it is being strangled in state ledge s legislatures the answer is more protest at every point, more concern about the ballots being voted on that's where we can take hope from this. i have to believe it. >> i completely agree. again, once again, let me tie what you're saying, let me tie what happened in tennessee to what happened this week in wisconsin. gene, if doris had said that a week ago, said, "oh, we need state legislatures to do this and change," my response would be, well, look at wisconsin. it is gerrymandered. there's no way democrats are always going to get more vote than republicans, but they've so gerrymandered it and rigged the process, there is no waythey do get the representation they need voila, republicans are so extreme, they have an abortion ban from 1849, i guarantee you, the extreme gerrymandering in wisconsin is going to go away. it is going to go away because you're going to have actually more vote equity among

republicans and democrats finally. so the extremism that we see every morning, that concerns us every morning, it is actually being met with a repulvulsion fm middle class and working class americans, independent voters, swing voters in swing states. >> joe, what you're seeing is action and reaction in wisconsin. i mean, it was really quite amazing. the supreme court race was not really close in wisconsin, it's a very evenly divided state. yet, in their substantial majority, wisconsinites saw that the republican party was just completely off the rails with this abortion law, with the gerrymandering, and so now, both those huge issues are going to be corrected, i predict, in

wisconsin. so republicans have essentially sabotaged themselves what we saw in wisconsin, what we're, i think, going to see in tennessee, is a renewed democratic party focus on the local level, on the grassroots, where republicans have been so successful over the last 20 years. it is going to change, i think, as democrats realize how important that is and really start moving i do have a question for reverend sharpton, though, which is about just the racism i mean, just -- i don't think i would have seen this from, like, the south carolina legislature of my youth, had there been black members back then. i think they would have been smart enough not to kick out the two young black men and let the white lady stay. what does that say, rev, about

where we are in terms of race in tennessee and in this country? >> i think it says that many of those that are bigots and have become racists have lost their shame. they feel emboldened some of it, i think, was assasdue to donald trump he didn't create it, but he gave a sense of, let's say and do what we want what it will do, it will cause an uprising of blacks and whites to really fight back because they're so caustic i will never forget when i was a kid, just joining civil rights in the north, that the leaders that worked with dr. king said, had we not had the beating and teargassing of williams, john lewis, the bridge in selma, we never would have gotten the voting rights act.

i think there blatant racism is what is going to backfire on them because let's not forget, right there in tennessee, we're not only dealing with the energy from them dealing with this gun legis legislation, we're still dealing with the whole tyre nichols case, of a man beat to death on tape in the same state this is going to energize voters across racial lines and generations because people are seeing things that are blatant, then they're seeing a legislature that is trying to go back to the 1940s. >> in a moment, we'll be speaking with justin jones, one of the tennessee lawmakers who was expelled, but let's bring in democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut he is the ranking member of the house intelligence committee we have you here to talk about ukraine, to talk about afghanistan. but, first, we'd love to get your thoughts on the expulsion of these two young black lawmakers from the statehouse in

tennessee. >> well, yeah. thanks, mika you know, as somebody in polpoliti s, i look at this and think, oh, my god, where has the republican party gone as a matter of substance, when you've twice in your state's history expelled people from the legislature, and in both cases it was for serious crimes, bribery and a sex scandal, then you expel two young men for, okay, maybe they broke decorum, but when you expel them, you know, we're all left to have exactly the conversation we're having, which is what is really behind this. of course, you know, as we all suspect, it has a lot to do with, skin i mean, look, again, as a practitioner of politics, the republican party today has a massive problem with young people because they don't take climate change seriously, because they don't take justice seriously. they have a massive problem with african-americans. there is no amount of money that the rnc can raise to offset the

damage that was just done to the republican party's ability to appeal to people that they ultimately need if they want to expand their appeal amongst the american people. >> congressman, a new white house report is mainly blaming the trump administration for the united states' chaotic withdrawal from afghanistan in 2021. >> huh. >> it is a 12-page assessment released by the national security council yesterday officials write that president biden was, quote, severely restrained by conditions created by his predecessor the report points out that it was the trump white house that negotiated a deal with the taliban, promising that the u.s. would pull all troops from afghanistan by the middle of 2021 then, after trump's 2020 election defeat, they write, the outgoing administration provided no plans for how to conduct the final withdrawal or to evacuate

americans and afghan allies. nsc spokesperson john kirby drove home that point yesterday. >> you have to look at when he came into office, what he was walking into he didn't negotiate with the taliban. he didn't invite the taliban to camp david he didn't release 5,000 prisoners. he didn't reduce force levels in afghanistan to 2,500 he didn't have an arrangement with the taliban they wouldn't attack our troops. he came in with a certain set of circumstances he had no ability to change. he had to deal with it based on what he inherited. >> congressman, many would argue the withdrawal, the actually day of, was quite chaotic and cumbersome is the pushback warranted? >> well, mika, if this is an exercise in dividing blame between joe biden and donald trump, let's also remember kirby said yesterday something that is consistent with what we respect harry truman for saying. the buck stops here.

kirby said yesterday, the president of the united states, the commander in chief bears ultimate responsibility for the operational actions of the troops joe biden is the kind of guy who would own up to what harry truman asked presidents to own up to. by the way, that report also noted that they should have started that withdrawal earlier and in a more orderly fashion. now, can anybody imagine the trump administration saying, yeah, at the end of the day, i bear operational responsibility? mika, to get to the point you asked about, 2,500 troops when joe biden becomes president. the week after january 6th, when my workplace was attacked by insurgents, there were more than 2,500 troops guarding capitol hill more than 2,500 national guards guarding capitol hill. with 2,500 troops, you do not have options, right? people always say, why didn't we keep the airfield open why didn't we secure the roads because we barely had enough troops to severe an airport. again, the key point is i think joe biden, and kirby said it

yesterday, took ultimate responsibility for what was a terribly painful withdrawal, something you cannot imagine donald trump ever saying again, remember the resources that were on the ground when joe biden was sworn in as president. barely enough to guard an airfield. >> you know, you're right, the buck does stop with the sitting president. i do wonder, though, about the intel agencies who have done such a wonderful job in ukraine and have done so many great things, gotten so many things right. of course, we focus on the things they got wrong. there was a shock, not only throughout the white house but across washington and the world, on how quickly afghanistan fell to the taliban how did the intel community get that so wrong? >> well, joe, i'm not sure they did get it so wrong. i saw -- >> who got it wrong? >> -- reporting leading up to that i'll tell you what got it wrong. >> who got it wrong? >> yeah, i'll tell you who got it wrong over many, many years -- look,

i'll own up to some of this because i was a member of congress for a lot of this for many, many years, members of congress went to afghanistan, hundreds of them went to afghanistan, and we heard from our people on the ground that, yeah, it looks bad, but, i couldn't know-- we're about to n a corner we heard this year in and year out. by the way, president barack obama, who went into office saying, we better get this under control, ended up doubling down. you know, we all fell prey to what we heard in afghanistan, which is that it looks bad, but we're just about to turn the corner we never turned that corner. we never really made any substantial macro progress there. the truth is, for not figuring that out faster, all of us bear a little bit of blame. you know, to say that donald trump took too many troops out of afghanistan to control the situation, and then have trump supporters say that's outrageous, it's a matter of facts and math on that

particular point. >> congressman, it is jen psaki. how are you? my hometown congressman, by the way. i want to ask you about, looking at this report, one of the questions is how does the u.s. government apply the lessons learned moving forward some of the calculations made at the time, and i was in there at the time, were about not wanting to reduce confidence in the afghan government. also, wanting to keep the embassy open, to get as many partners and allies out as quickly as possible, or as many out as possible. looking ahead to, you know, future circumstances where the u.s. needs to withdraw military presence in countries, what lessons do you think should be applied for future governments >> jen, that's a great question. let me start by saying, in the very narrow sense here, another thing that we haven't talked about in afghanistan is that the president at the time, ashraf ghani, was making an argument to washington, if you withdraw, it is game over for me. it was hard to listen to

ultimately he, by the way, said, we will fight until the last soldier of course, then he got on a plane and left the country jen, your question is an important one because it is a lesson we've learned in lots of places iraq, afghanistan, vietnam the russians are learning it in ukraine right now. the lesson is simple and, somehow, we forget it all the time if you have a military presence in a country that doesn't really want you there, i don't care how strong you are i don't care how many billions of dollars you spend on your military or how many f-16s or f-35s you have ultimately, if the people on the ground don't want your military there, you're going to have a very, very bad time of it. by the way, i make that point so that we learn from that. also, the chinese who are maybe thinking about, do we go or not go into taiwan if the people don't want you there, you are going to have a very hard time of it >> before you go, congressman, "the new york times" has new reporting on some leaks from the pentagon, leaked plans regarding

the war in ukraine classified war documents detailing secret american and nato plans photographs, charts of anticipated weapons deliveries, troop and battalion strengths, other plans. i guess, what do you make of this breach of intelligence? >> yeah. number one, i haven't actually seen what we're talking about. we're not in session any time you've got a leak, of course, somebody like me better be on be on it we can't have leaks of secret documents. number two, and this is really important, not having seen any of this stuff, we don't know if it is information that was stolen, whether it leaked, or even whether it is true or not people should -- the russians are masters of misinformation. at the end of the day, big picture, nato is helping ukraine, shocker of shockers, right? again, i don't mean to sound unserious about the possibility of leaks or stolen information but if the russians think they're going to change the

environment around the discussion by pointing out nato countries are helping ukraine, i'm not sure how that particularly changes the debate here >> all right we'll be following that. ranking member of the house intelligence committee, democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut, thank you very much. turning back to the big story out of tennessee, joining us now is the former tennessee state representative, justin jones. he was one of two black lawmakers expelled yesterday it's good to have you on this morning. thank you for being on tell us what you make of what happened to you yesterday, and what are your plans moving forward? yes, thank you so much for having me on today it was a very diss turbing day yesterday, to see the undoing of democracy, to see the ousting of me and representative pearson, the two youngest lawmakers in tennessee. i think what we are facing now is something that will set a precedent in the nation for

democracy. so i'm exhausted but i'm also hopeful because i saw thousands of people. in fact, people across the nation, i would say, millions who are paying attention to what happened and are challenging it, saying it was wrong, and saying that we must challenge it in the courts, as we will we'll challenge it at the ballot box in the special election. i don't think that what happened yesterday is ultimate. there are means of addressing the wrong that happened and occurred to democracy. >> representative jones, reverend al sharpton first, let me con ggratulate yo and your two colleagues for your courage. the then i'm concerned about that i want you to address, is that we don't lose focus on the cause. that is that you and your colleagues have made this sacrifice around the issue of gun violence next weekend, the national rifle association is having its convention in indianapolis, at the same time we're having our

action network convention in new york vice president harris and others will be talking about gun violence we'll certainly try to have you guys come up the issue of gun violence crosses racial lines because you were protesting at a school that was not an hbcu. this is covenant school. these people insensitive about kids their own race, 9 years old. what has impressed me about the protest and some of us may be joining you monday, is the intergenerational and interracial aspect of the protest. i saw people of all races and ages out there every day standing up, including yesterday. address the universal nature of why you're so concerned about gun control and how this is an issue you've become the symbol of but goes into everyone's household? >> definitely. thank you so much, reverend sharpton i mooean, this issue that droveu to the well was trying to say we don't want our children gunned down in schools.

that's what this was about when we have thousands of young people come to the state capitol saying, we want to live. do you hear us do something and my colleagues wouldn't hear the issue. we wouldn't bring it up. the speaker cut off our microphones if we talked about gun violence we went to the well and got in good trouble because we had no other choice or l aalternative. this has been the largest protest in nashville in a decade it is multi-racial, intergenerational, because people are saying that our children are not worth these weapons of war on our streets. we can pass common sense gun laws, the majority of tennessee is in support. rather than an assault weapons ban, they've assaulted democracy. i represented a part of nashville, and we're still grieving we're still mourning a week later, we were asking for action it is not to pass gun laws, they want to expel the two youngest black lawmakers in the state of tennessee. it's wrong. >> representative jones, this is gene robinson. what -- is there a possibility,

it was raised earlier, that you could be reappointed to your seat if not, would you run for it again? >> you know, definitely looking at legal -- i believe what happened was unconstitutional. challenging it in the courts we'll look at going to the ballot box in a special election the council is meeting on monday to appoint an interim. the question is, will they seat us we've heard from the other side that they may not seat us, even if our council appoints us, even if we win a special election, that they won't hay a allow us seeing in georgia, the legislature refused to seat bonn a young man. i hope the nation sees this and the alarm is blaring loud. if it can happen in tennessee, it can happen anywhere it sets a dangerous precedent going forward. this is the first expulsion of first amendment violations in

tennessee. the other educatixpulsions have for crimes this is unprecedented. >> representative jones, this is jonathan capehart. look forward to seeing you on the saturday show tomorrow i'm glad i can ask you this question now i was stunned by the lopsided nature of your expulsion, by the vote it left me to wonder, do you believe there will be any electoral repercussions for the republicans, particularly those in leadership, for what they did to you, representative pearson, and, to an extent, representative johnson, who, while she wasn't expelled, she was put through this process >> i think there's definitely going to be repercussions. they've lost an entire generation of voters in tennessee. they've lost the moral narrative. i mean, i had republicans sending me letters, coming by my office throughout the week saying, thank you for standing up for our children.

so i think people are awake. they saw extremism on full display. i think it is going to hurt them the speaker of the house, cameron sexton, wants to be governor he can kiss that dream good-bye. the nation has seen what an extreme occurrence occurred, you know, in the tennessee chambers. it was a public and political lynching it was an attempt to humiliate us what they did was really show for the world and humiliate themselves, that this is not a democracy. this is, you know, a body that is so petty and so weak and so built on white fragility, when we go forward, i think people will remember that, especially the young people that's what will make them afraid the expulsion wasn't about us. it was expelling the voices of the young people, expelling a movement they've done the opposite. >> expelled tennessee state representative justin jones. i suspect we will be seeing you again very often. >> thank you. >> thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you >> doris, i'm just curious,

after listening to the representative this morning, your thoughts? >> well, it just was so heartwarming to hear him reference history with julian bonn, talk about martin luther king what lincoln said is public sentiment is everything. he who molds public opinion and public sentiment, not really opinion, a deeply held value, has more power than he gives judicial decisions or enacts statutes public sentiment is going to change it is already changing you saw a change in the hmidter, in kansas, wisconsin you cannot have things that are not decent, that are wrong, that people just know are deadly wrong. what happened there was wrong. how he was able to transfer it to an attack on democracy rather than himself, think of the difference between that and we watched former president trump this week, everything was about himself, not about what responsibility he might have happen i think public sentiment is going to begin to change on him, as well. there's such an extreme reaction when everything he talked about,

calling people lunatics, calling them animals, you know, saying we should de-fund the police and the doj. there's a sense in the country that this isn't right. the accumulated obsession with him, i think, and the fact that we're losing time, we're losing energy by fighting that battle instead of fighting the battles for gun control, fighting the battles for the right to choose, these are the battles that we have to fight. i think, somehow, these events become turning points, just as they did during the civil rights movement when you saw the dogs go against the kids, when you saw the hoses with john lewis, you saw people being sent to the hospital, the wholecountry rose up, the mighty rose of the majority said, this isn't right we're going to do something about it civil rights act voting rights act. that's where we're at right now. the extremism is so extreme -- extremism is so extreme, i think there is a reaction among middle america that we're seeing growing and growing. that's the hope you take out of

those two young men in the state legislature, the way they talked about democracy. the more we talk about it, the more we get people's hearts involved in this struggle, i think we're on path. i know i thought it before i thought it january 6th i thought it with the january 6th hearings but i really think now, there is something that is happening, that has gone beyond the bounds of decency the american people have decency and a sense of fairness and right and wrong. they know what's moral they know this is not moral, what's happening right now. >> doris, we actually, even though it has been a long and winding path, it's a path we've been on since 2017 we talk about it here time and again. independent voters, swing voters in swing states, swing districts, swing counties, offended i can go back to 2017. delaware county, pennsylvania, electing its first democrats to county commission seats in 100 years. you can take that all the way

t through kansas this past summer. take that through wisconsin this past week. i agree with you, i think it is accelerating now, though i mean, the juxtaposition of donald trump and the horrific things he said the beginning of this week, his actions with what happened in tennessee, i just couldn't agree more. since we have you here, i want to ask you about -- i want to ask you about presidents we'll go to 30,000 feet here we were talking about joe biden and afghanistan. the sharing of blame between the trump administration and the biden administration that, of course, will be for historians to sort through but it reminds me, you see what biden has done there, but then combine that with what he's done with bipartisan legislation. to read david ignatius' column in "the washington post" this morning, his extraordinary work

building the nato coalition, the west strengthening , the extraordinary weakening of russia as a military and economic force it balances out. nick kristof came on last week, and we were talking about george w. bush on the 20th an venivers of iraq. one of the most dreadful policy changes. because he is a troublemaker, nick reminds us that george w. bush created the most successful public policy program in our lifetime, saving 25 million people in africa from aids which brought up lyndon johnson. which, of course, when i was growing up, lyndon johnson, you heard about the vietnam war. there is more of an understanding the last four, five years, especially in light of trump the extraordinary work that his domestic policy did, that got overshadowed so long even especially among democrats.

talk about that. talk about how history and how, in britain, forgive me for going on, but this is something i'm grappling with all the time. prime ministers, once they leave, they're despised. they're hated. they're thrown out in america, it seems we give our presidents a second, third, fourth look. often, what we see is pretty extraordinary. explain our -- just the nature of americans looking back on their presidents and finding things and being able to balance out the good and the bad. >> i think it takes time for history to really record itself. i think that's all to the good you were mentioning lyndon johnson as the perfect example when he left office, we're in the throes of the vietnam war still. the anger about the war, the mistakes the war made. as time goes by, you realize, what happened during his

presidency medicare, medicaid, education, immigration reform, voting rights, civil rights a president that was passionate about voting rights and civil rights then that begins to balance the ledger you'll see historians now, the polls are coming up for him. or think about your guy, harry truman he leaves office under such a cloud. low public opinion approval. yet, what he was able to do in terms of a foreign policy, recognition of israel and the desegregation of the armed forces so he's come up in the public opinion polls. in the end, what do we judge our presidents by? when you look at the historians' polls, did they advance justice? how did they deal with congress? did they put forth a good public per persona? did hthey ak rocknowledge error? with president donald trump, republicans are peeling off a

few things, he shouldn't have said to de-fund the police, shouldn't have swung the bat they should be asking, what is the character of our leaders that's what historians look like character is made up of flaws and strength none escape without having been limited by the context of the time or making a mistake the questionis, do they have a decency to acknowledge it when they make it, learn from it, and grow as a result of it that's what historians look at that's what makes history so much fun they have the perspective. they can give us lessons i think they give us hope. all the great presidents are ones that advance social justice and economic opportunity, protected us abroad, et cetera those are the values of america. we have to get back to judgiing them by those values. >> jen psaki, i know you have a question for borar doris, but s talks about harry truman, a man elected once and then didn't run again in '52 because he -- his approval rating was in the 20s

also, jimmy carter, in 1979 alone, did what nobody else had been able to do with camp david. normalized relations with china, which changed, which really created globalization. pushed back on the russians in afghanistan. thanks to a national security adviser and jimmy carter who worked together to actually lead the resistance against the soviets in afghanistan that was the beginning of the end of that empire pushed back hard in poland and let the soviets know an invasion of poland after solidarity would only lead to more trouble for them that accelerated the collapse of the soviet union jimmy carter, like harry truman, and i say like george h.w. bush, will be looked on, these one-term presidents will be looked back upon as presidents who made a massive difference on

the international scale. >> doris, i wanted to ask you, of the two presidents i worked for, both love nothing more than spending time with historians like you i wanted to ask you just about, as president biden looks to a second term, obviously, he hasn't announced he is running for re-election yet. there's a lot of politics involved but where should he and his team be thinking in terms of the impact they can have on some of these civil rights issues or some of these issues of rights for women, for young people, in his second term? there is no question, eight years is better than four for a legacy you have to be planning that even as you're planning a political campaign. >> well, i think the important thing is to figure out what kind of tone he's going to give to the american public. i think more of a fighting tone will fit this period of time right now. i think he was absolutely right to want consensus in that first part of his presidency, no order to get the legislation through,

which is probably histor legisln he may have modulated his voice in order to do that. now, what's happening in the country needs a fighter. that's what teddy roosevelt who lived at the turn of the 20th century. he was seen as the guy who is standing up for little business against big business, who is standing up against child labor regulations, who is standing up for this and that. people want that they need that i think even the thing he said yesterday, finally speak out against what this democracy was on trial here in tennessee, that's the kind of -- we need that voice coming from the white house. obviously, it is going to lead up to the elections. i think it is a -- it may be a change from the voice that we saw, and maybe it is going back to the old joe biden we knew in the early days, when he was a fighter, even more than he has been >> doris kearns goodwin, thank you so much. jonathan capehart, we will be watching the aptly named saturday and sunday shows at 9:00 a.m. eastern, both days

this weekend on msnbc. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest in the mysterious murder of a tech executive in san francisco, as pressure is building on police to identify a suspect. also ahead, an update on the health of pope francis ahead of a busy holiday weekend for the catholic leader. we'll get a live report from rome you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include

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that christians and catholicing commemorate the death of jesus christ it is going to be a very full day for pope francis he will oversee a service here in st. peter's and then oversee the way of the cross in rome he is doing all of this determined that despite the ailments of age and a recent illness he is showing the world he can still lead the catholic church pope francis powering through holy week. the 86-year-old animated, engaged. >> by getting back on the job so quickly the pope is effectively saying you are not rid of me yet. i have an agenda and moving full speed ahead. >> reporter: the week began with palm sunday mass where he thanked those that prayed for him in the illness. >> it means a lot that he

celebrated the mass with us today. >> reporter: brought children along for a ride in the pope mobile at the general audience wednesday. then went to a juvenile prison for holy mass. speaking out notes he said jesus will not abandon them, a promise symbolized by the washing of feet the pope washed and kissed the feet of 12 young men and women one inmate brought to tears. the voice of deacon zain will fill the basilica saturday night. the 29-year-old from indiana who played in his high school band now plays with the rock band at fellow seminarns in rome a little more than 50 days from becoming a priest he will chant the easter proclamation for pope francis. is this the first time to sing at a papal mass? >> yes.

>> reporter: are you nervous >> the most challenging is how long it is but i will pray for the holy spirit to have the grace to finish it. >> reporter: it is also a very long mass on easter saturday night and then on easter sunday pope francis will preside over mass outside here and he will deliver his speech to the city and the world. he is still going strong at 86. >> i love it nbc's anne thompson live in rome on this good friday. thank you very much. christianity is one of three major religions marking holidays this week. for joews this is passover and for muslims ram dan is the ninth month observed as fasting, prayer, reflection and community. let's bring in bishop robert

barren from minnesota, imam is the convener of the council of imams in new jersey, rabbi matthew is the senior rabbi in new jersey and author of "to build a brave space. it is good to have you all on this good friday. >> good morning. >> bishop, let's start with you on this good friday. one of the holiest of days on the holiest weekend on the christian calendar can you tell people watching the importance of good friday and easter to christians worldwide >> i think good friday signifies god's journey all the way down god journeys into the humanity

and limitations and pain he embraces cruelty, injustice, face that is down. he goes all the way to death itself so as to show that the divine love accompanies us in the totality of the humanity another good lesson from good friday is we see in the cross of jesus the win of the world so the son of god comes among us and the response of the world is to kill him. as was seen that is the response across the ages. if he came back. we would opposes ourselves to him. we see the cruelty and the violence and injustice but god loves us despite all of that there's the message of easter. >> bishop, my mother who was a southern baptist but a church organist

played in the episcopal church because she said they appreciate good music i'm reminded this week of -- i got an amen from reverend al on that one i'm reminded of the more horrific news from the catholic church we had it in my church i know pope francis apologized in the past why what do you say to people hearing your words but can't take it in because of the past sins of the church? how does good friday and jesus' sacrifice and easter weekend, the resurrection, how does that play into all of this? >> from the very beginning of the church there was corruption, stupidity, deep immorality

paul said, we hold the treasure which is christ, the cross, the resurrection, the good news of the gospel, we hold the treasure in earthen vessels paul knew it 2,000 years ago the fragility of all of us who bear the gospel. but there's the treasure that remains and i would encourage people to keep looking at the treasure despite the limitations of those that bear it. >> imam, we grow up and we hear about in culture ramadan and understand there's fasting involved but we don't understand in the west sometimes more than that can you explain to us the significance of ramadan to the islamic faith? >> would be happy to

we are in the 16th day of this blessed month of ramadan and fasting and the idea of fasting is not so much that you starve yourself, but the important thing is that it is done to develop some restraint of the appetit appetites that we have it is important to discipline ourselves to not always respond to the things we always want and i think the idea of ramadan is to do this with regard to almighty god and why we fast fasting is for god only. and it begins to develop a consciousness that is associated with holding things that god said is sacred and making sure that the things discipline our lives to be just not only to

ourselves and to other people. >> one of the things i was thinking as joe was talking to bishop, an unordained preacher i tell him passover, good friday where we that are christian, baptists or whatever denomination believe christ was crucified today, ramadan is sacrifice, all the holidays are at the same time and stress some pain, some sacrifice and being able to rise if you cannen d-- can endure th pain good friday is a resurrection from death ramadan about sacrifice. tell us how we have the common

fav faith. >> it is rare that they converge at the same time imagine this week, millions of people sitting down with sacred intention praying for peace, compassion, generosity i say to the imam that we are all fed by the same cord made by the same maker maybe this week we can remember that the jewish story is 400 years of slavery and god hears the suffering and appoints moses and confront the evil pharaoh and through the split sea of reeds with the army enveloped and to 40 years in the desert and journeyed to get to the promised land we, too, can perhaps not just think about getting out of slavery but to get the slavery out of us.

being uncomfortable spiritually to be free >> it seems the messages are more important than ever with depression, anxiety, suicidal ideations and with the children across the country and the western world so the messages are so important with attendance unfortunately in many faiths going down could each of you give us a final thought and final prayers for this country and this world going into the weekend i'd begin with you, bishop. >> i'm sorry that god's love is more powerful than anything in the world what we see in the cross of jesus is the dysfunction of the world. all of it is there cruelty, injustice, hatred all of it.

god's love is greater than that. we can look right in the face of all this dysfunction with a kind of spiritual celebration. >> imam, your thoughts this weekend? >> i think the most important thing is to have faith and our life in america is all about having hope that tomorrow will bring a brighter day although we have to struggle to make sure that the light that sometimes is dim we can make brighter as a result of the flame of faith brighter within our hearts and minds >> beautiful and rabbi, your final thought and prayer for this passover weekend. >> it is imperative to note how depressed the kids are we think they are not interested

in a spiritual path. i think they are spiritually ravenous it is our job sitting on the table, the bishop in minnesota to say let's create a menu from which they want to eat faith is not magic faith is all of us acting as god's messengers with love, somehow manifesting god's dominion here on earth through our hands and yesterday may have been dark but like the trees budding in spring in nature today we are part of the cycle and can renew and that's my prayer for all of us. >> reverend, al? >> i think the fact that this year all of the three religions are celebrating and

commemorating at the same time and touch on the strength to find who you are through suffering and coming out the other side redeemed. that's what the resurrection and passover and ramadan is about. we ought not to have a celebration without going through the process. >> thank you all very much for coming on this good friday on the show this morning. thank you. >> thank you. coming up, the congressional black caucus calling the move to excel two black democrats from the tennessee state house racist and anti-democratic. we'll speak with the chair of the caucus, congressman steven horsford here's what a former lawmaker

said yesterday before they were ousted. >> what we did was the only logical thing to do after a session to find by extreme silencing of representatives of this body, a session to find by multiple moments in which the attempt to bring up gun violence was immediately out of order >> that was your 20 minutes. >> this is not seeming like america. voices of opposition and dissent. it is a signal of authoritarianism and dangerous and i hope as a nation watches that we put this light on to this to say that this should sound the alarm across the nation of dangerous territory. >> one of the two democrats in tennessee expelled after participating in a gun violence

protest on the floor of the state house. much more on this punishment just ahead. on capitol hill, a donald trump vocal ally in congress sends a subpoena. >> this is not going to work well for jim jordan. >> we'll explain why - >> going to explain why he wrote a book saying that actually d.a. bragg didn't go after donald trump aggressively enough. but if you got 'em smoke 'em. >> this could backfire on jim jordon and the report exposing years of lavish vacations by supreme court justice thomas paid for by a gop mega donor. >> willie, the clarence thomas stuff just keeps coming up if this had been kagan or

justice sotomayor or somebody on the left the right would be squawking like crazy but here with thomas it is just one -- one breach of ethical conduct after another. stepping over one line and then another and another. i guess there's nothing, nothing that can be done. >> for decades it is going on for decades i had the same thought for a party to talk about wealthy overlords who make decisions this story has that. paying a supreme court justice don't have evidence that it influences the decisions it feels unethical if not legal. >> we have former white house press secretary now a msnbc host jen psaki, columnist of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene

robinson, white house editor for politico sam stein >> one of the greatest episodes of "way too early. >> i do what i can. >> a humble servant. >> also with us the host of "politics nation" and president of the national action network reverend al sharpton and founder of the bull work and author of "how the right lost its mind" charlie sykes is with us this morning. >> reverend sharpton, i'm a simple man you know that. i fell off a turnip truck outside of 30 rock a couple years ago and brushed the dirt off and walked upstairs. i got a job. so it's way beyond my pay grade to figure out why is it that two

of the lawmakers got expelled in tennessee yesterday but one didn't i'm a simple man can you explain that to me trying -- i'm trying to pick up -- imnot good in sodoku maybe you can help me out with what happened yesterday and why one was allowed to remain in and two expelled. >> well, phil griffin told me when you fell off the turnip truck you didn't bump your head. one was white. two were black all three engaged in protest legitimate protest around gun control because six people in tennessee there in nashville in a christian school were killed three of them 9 years old and protests and rightfully so around tennessee around gun

laws these three legislators decided they would also add the protests in the session and they were expelled but only two, only the two young blacks were expelled. the white female was maintained and to her credit she said this is clearly about race. so when you have a legislature that is clearly conservative, overwhelmingly republican, and white male that are not only saying we are not going to deal with the question of gun control but we have had mass killings in this state and one as recent as ten days ago we mix race in at the same time. if this does not raise the concern of all us nationally, i have been in conversations all night with people in nashville, i don't know what will this is racist and dangerous

coming to gun control. we're talking about babies 9-year-olds that were killed they were protesting about babies i heard someone talk about how decades ago julian bond expelled from congress over vietnam this is babies killed in their own backyard they will punish those that rise to the occasion. >> this is the offense compared to 9/11 by a january 6th i mean by a speaker who didn't see the coverage on january the 6th. it's outrageous. gene robinson, we said yesterday the gop have become a parody of themselves on the national and local stage and then, my god, is there a worse look for the tennessee legislature to expel two young, black men tell the white woman, it is all

right, you can stay in here with us. >> they couldn't help themselves, could they >> no. unbelievable. >> when people tell you who they are belief them. i believe this is one of the racist things i have seen recently and that is saying a lot. i can think of no better way to energize the tennessee democratic party, to energize people concerned about civil rights in tennessee and in the nation and to paint the majority in the tennessee legislature as not only tone deaf doesn't say it, not only blind to what happened in nashville just a few days ago, but frankly, just flat-out so racist that they

couldn't stop themselves from expelling the two young black men and not expelling the white woman who did the exact same thing. this is today's republican party and the nation is watching the nation will take note. i hope the nation will act >> just for a little historical perspective i guess this happens from time to time. no in the state of tennessee lawmakers have been expelled only twice since the civil war once for sexual misconduct and another time in the '80s for accepting a bribe. so here's what happened. republican legislators in tennessee voted to expel two black democrats from the state house over the protest against gun violence last week such protests are forbidden. now dubbed the tennessee three,

two expelled from the body and representative gloria johnson who is white survived the expulsion. >> what we see today is a lynch mob assembled to lynch the democratic process we called for you all to ban assault weapons. and you respond with an assault on democracy let's talk about expulsion for years one of your colleagues who was an admitted child molester sat in this chamber no expulsion one member sits in this chamber found guilty of domestic violence no expulsion we had a former speaker sit in this chamber now under federal investigation. no expulsion

we have a member under federal investigation. no expulsion we had a member pee in another member's chair in this chamber no expulsion in fact, they're in leadership in the governor's administration and so, once again, what you are saying to us, trying to put us on trial what you are really putting on trial is the state of tennessee. what you are really showing for the world is holding up a mirror to a state that is going back to some dark, dark roots. a state in which the ku klux klan was founded is now attempting another power grabby silencing the two youngest black representatives and one of the only democratic women in this body >> dr. king taught us that

sometimes there's a consciousness above rule, above what you might say is law. and that the true forms of protest is nonviolent disobedience less than a few minutes, we and you are seeking to expel district 86's representation from this house. in a country that was built on a protest. in a country that was built on a protest! i can say to folks who are worried about whether or not as one sign said, am i next what i can say to you is that the movement for justice can never die. because the heart for justice can never be killed. we have got good news that sunday always comes!

resurrection is a promise! and it is a prophesy it is a prophesy that came out of the cotton fields, that came out of the lynching tree, still lives in each and every one of us to make the state of tennessee the place it ought to be i got up because i know we are still here and we will never quit >> representative justin pearson speaking yesterday what happened, last week it was march 30th the representatives you hear there with gloria johnson went into the well of the house with a mega phone and protesting the shooting at the covenant school. the tennessee highway patrol protecting the capitol said there were not any arrests made, no property damage, nothing like we see obviously at january 6 which is the comparison made by some republicans here.

it was by definition a peaceful protest. it may have broken house rules but to expel them and overturn the voters' will who put them there is something else entirely. >> as a member of the legislative body i can tell you procedural rules get broken. when they do you are asked to stand down or the sergeant at arms takes you out of the chamber. >> many steps before expulsion. >> i saw that on the floor of congress i will say extraordinary speeches by both representatives expelled and again, i think you listened and find out the people that committed domestic violence and -- >> sexual abuse. >> -- other abuse allowed to stay in there even if you urinate in a fellow member's

chair. you get promoted in tennessee to the legislation. if you protest 9-year-olds getting slaughtered in a christian school they kick you out. >> joining us is tennessee state representative gloria johnson, one of the three not expelled yesterday. thank you so much for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it the question for you this morning is, what worries you the most about yesterday and what gives you the most hope? >> just a travesty process -- there was no process. there were no rules. we tried to get some information on what the rules were going to be, what the process was going to be. we got nothing and a little bit of direction they would not allow us to bring in any video of our own. when we get there they make a

motion to show their video that we had seen and didn't know who took it and don't know how it was edited it was not just from the floor but films from other things and lied to. we were misinformed and scary this is happening to the democratic process you know and that's a biggest thing and that two, young men who are brilliant young men and passionate and they care deeply about the community and to see people's -- to see how they were questioned in a different way from me. i had republican colleagues say, you know, they didn't show contrition or they have -- the younger generation has a different way of speaking and addressing things. i'm a 60-year-old schoolteacher.

i might talk more level tone but it was very clear what this was about. >> representative johnson, reverend al sharpton, let mesa lieutenant you for standing up and saying what this is about. you not excluded and that's race i think people get hope from you standing up with the courage let me ask this. do you see any legal or other ways that could lead to the reinstatement of your colleagues do you see a path forward to dealing with laws around guns in the state of tennessee we are talking about reacting to 9-year-olds being killed at school i don't think we want to miss the forest for the trees do you see a path forward to

deal with the gun legislation that you advocated and legally or otherwise reinstating the two lawmakers that we feel were unjustifiably removed? >> i think there might be a pathway forward. baby steps i don't trust my republican colleagues will pass anything that is near enough but i think we can take steps. the only reason that will happen is because of that younger generation they showed up every day by the thousands and staying on this and not going to stop. they will keep showing up and speaking up until there's progress i am -- i do have a lot of hope coming to justin pearson and justin jones both coming back to the legislature because if the county commission or metro council appoints them there's a

legal glitch there, there's a disagreement about whether they can come back in the 113th general assembly and have to wait until the 114th lawyers i talked to say that there is no difference between which session they come at they could very well be reappointed in the next few weeks. >> representative, thank you for being with us. it sounds like you got a free ride 65 of fellow members voted to expel you. 66 would have expelled you you survived by one vote if this does happen and they are thrown out of the house, would there be a special election in their districts? what is the recourse exactly here >> yes immediately that would be an appointment from the metro

council in nashville or county commission in shelby county. and then within a few months there will be a special election for that seat. we are expecting the young men to come back that is my hope. >> tennessee state representative johnson, thank you very much for coming on "morning joe" this morning we appreciate it. >> i want to go to charlie sykes. you know, i had somebody call me yesterday and say, you know, you look at wisconsin and seems to be -- put that in good silo. where we are going in the right direction. tennessee shows where the country is going in the wrong direction. actually, the two go together. it is just what we talked about. this is a republican party that is so radically disassociated from where the middle of america is, where middle class americans

are, where the midwest is, the upper midwest, independent voters every place that counts. i guarantee you all the voters see this and go, they are not pretending they are not bigots they are not pretending anymore. and they're kicking the people out because they were upset about 9-year-old girls slaughtered in a schoolhouse i think the two go together, charlie. i think wisconsin is the result of 100 tennessees before it. >> there will be more. joe, my problem with this story is the stupidity it burns what were the republicans in tennessee hoping to accomplish here they look horrible they have made superstars out of

the tennessee three. three extraordinarily impressive and eloquent figures you never would have heard of if it wasn't for the retaliation for the republicans deciding we can do that that's the same story in wisconsin where the republicans have a supermajority and a reason why they are quietly talking about we could actually impeach liberal supreme court justices legislators say we won't do that it would be chaotic and stupid we have seen the pattern before where the base demands this kind of action. all you need is a tweet or bleat out of mar-a-lago where donald trump says why aren't the rinos in wisconsin impeaching

justices they cave in this story in tennessee is such a case of political malpractice. you think of american politics, not to be disrespectful but a minority member, a member of the minority party in the tennessee lower house is an obscure position as a result of what happened yesterday, all three of these individuals are now superstars they are martyrs and the message is going to be amplified in a way that would be impossible without this republican overreach. the stupidity at ramming speed and no indication republicans are engaging in a pivot or course correction. doubling down on abortion, attacks on democracy and extreme positions on gun control

i have to say, i would love to be in the room where republicans are talking about this they are explaining why this is a smart, intelligent thing to do to advance the agenda. i can't figure it out. we'll take a look at how president biden is reacting. "morning joe" will be right back

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precedent. rather thaeb debates the merits of the issue these republican lawmakers have chosen to punish, silence and expel duly elected representatives of the people of tennessee. >> and, jen psaki, not really hard, also, to draw a straight line to this and election deniers. doesn't matter who is elected. if we have the power we throw out elections and yesterday two of the three elections thrown out. >> that's exactly right. what's so interesting and charlie hit the nail on the head you have to be careful what the republicans shined a light on. they shined a light on the superstars at a time in tennessee where you 1,000 people, kids, protesting in the streets to gun violence.

in elementary school, middle school just a little bit older. outraged and sick of it. what they are doing is empowering the movement for more gun reforms. short term gain with what they did but a long term potential benefit for those advocates for action on gun violence >> let me just adhere if i can, part of the story at least is the republican party in states specifically but federally is in a closed off ecosystem they are not really threatened electorally because they gerrymandered themselves y if you lock at the numbers in the votes yesterday 75-25. that is a huge gulf in power

there. and it allows them to do the types of actions that we agree are on the table i guess my question for eugene is if you're a democrat you feel great in the moment. you think this is energizing for the base elevating the lawmakers to new heights. isn't that coupled with the resignation that the system itself is so gerrymandered and in effect rigged in tennessee to talk about gun control rules or fund raising but things probably will not change? >> not in the short term, sam. what this does is energize the democratic party in tennessee, the base, shines a light on how

important the local elections are. i think it provides a way for democrats and progressives in tennessee to organize and to move forward in a way that republicans will not like. in the future. so no. immediately it doesn't -- there is nothing they can do 75-25. that's pretty clear. why look at those numbers five years, ten years from now. i bet they will be different, that is the ground roots organizing you need to change that ratio is a turbo boost from what republicans did i want to point out one other thing. gloria johnson who was so eloquent on this program earlier, a reason she cares so

much is she was a teacher. survived a school shooting in knoxville. so this is an intensely personal issue for her, should be a personal issue for jempb the tennessee legislature has not heard the last of it. republicans escalate efforts to protect former president trump. we'll take a look at congressman jim jordan's new subpoena. and how the manhattan d.a. is reacting "morning joe" will be right back age-related macular degeneration may lead to severe vision loss and if you're taking a multi-vitamin alone, you may be missing a critical piece... preservision. preservision areds 2 contains the only clinically proven nutrient formula recommended by the national eye institute to help reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. preservision is backed by 20 years of clinical studies. so ask your doctor about adding preservision

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york prosecutor that led the investigation into trump's finances were resigning last year in a letter congressman jordan said pomerantz provides information that is relevant and necessary and bragg responded to the subpoena writing in part, the house gop continues to attempt to undermine an active investigation and ongoing new york criminal case with an unprecedented campaign of harassment and intimidation. repeated efforts to weaken state and local law enforcement actions are an abuse of power. joining us now, congressional invest investigations reporter for "the washington post" jackie alamadi. give us more of your reporting and remind us of who mark

pomerantz is >> that's right. mark resigned last year due to frustrations he was serving under alvin bragg as prosecutor and felt the nst investigations not moving fast enough and in his book he outlined this idea that everyone on his legal team investigating potential financial crimes that trump committed harbored no doubts about the fact that donald trump committed a crime or potential multiple crimes and what jim jordan might hear but he is a ripe target for jordan trying to tease out and bolster this case that the d.a.'s office

weaponized the journal office against republicans. >> the criticism of bragg is that he wasn't being hard enough or moving fast enough. andrew weissman said this last night about the subpoena. >> when i heard that today i was thinking, jim jordan is going to have another dud on the hands because that has backfired for him. putting mark pomerantz in front of the american people, he wrote a book, unauthorized his version and controversy about whether it is accurate but says donald trump is guilty and should have been prosecuted long enough >> better doesn't get better. >> that is going to be an odd thing for a republican to elicit

to the american people there's a part saying bring it on. >> so what is congressman jordan hoping to get out of these hearings except maybe gumming up the process and slowing it down? >> that's often the strategy from conservatives this idea to muddy the waters by really throwing anything into the mix that might provide republicans with an opportunity to criticize investigations into donald trump jordan stated that he believes the book and the pressure to put on bragg bolsters the case that bragg acted out of political motivations opposed to moving or legal reasons as a prosecutor. but i think that the point that

a lot of democrats are now making that if he does provide documents and records he'll continue to make the case that donald trump is guilty of several crimes and then doing the opposite of jim jordan had hoped to be doing. of course, i'm in the middle of his book right now and does point out and outline some reasons why bragg might have decided not to bring the case earlier. some hurdles that bragg addressed, elevating the charges to a felony and other hurdles is statute of limitations and evidence issues and a tarnished witness in michael cohen if he were to appear before the committee he would have to attest to the full array of what

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the truth is there are major legislative fixes and they should happen. when you hear the data about nearly half of kids being addicted to their social media platforms and teen girls are depressed and legislatuors are doing nothing about it we have a youth mental health crisis particularly among teen girls but among all young people now we're finally seeing some states like california and utah doing something. the congress people you just showed are blathering on, but

they haven't passed any legislation to hold social media platforms accountable. >> what is it going to take to get that accountability? it seems to me we're letting our kids down on guns and mental health through social media. and both are presenting an epidemic that is either making our kids very ill or suicidal or is killing them. >> you're absolutely right that's why the justxtaposition s

there. there is a privacy law in the united states in california that affected the whole country we just passed an age-appropriate design code there. one of the big problems we see with social media platforms in particular is that they're designed to addict kids and to affect their attention and distract them. even as young kids as youhave, , they're walking into this world and no one at the federal slefl doing much about it. i think all of us as parent versusparents have changed the momentum. >> i have a couple of teenager 13 and 15 years old. there is a sense the genie is out of the bottle. they go to social media. if you put rules around one, they go to another if you shut tiktok down, they find another place it's not like you and i roade or dirt bikes through the woods until it got dark.

as you lay out, this can be so harmful. >> we're going to do a multi-year campaign called healthy young minds, which is all about doing events around the country. we're doing one next week with liz dzo who your teenagers probably listen to about how kids have to take to other kids about the mental health crisis we created a curriculum around youth mental health that will be in the great majority of schools and high schools we have to hold the platforms accountable. whether there's congressional legislation or not, this is an issue that everybody cares about, all parents care about. doesn't matter your political viewpoint. i think you're starting to also see lawsuits around the country. you guys reported on that on "morning joe" on a number of occasions. basically parents are fed up

if the federal government doesn't act, either state governments will do it or we ' sue platforms. kids have to know that it's okay not to be okay if you have teenagers, you have to be able to talk to your kids about that, give them resources, let them know this is part of being an adolescent. there's so much we can do about this i think the good news is all of us know this is a mental health crisis and momentum for change is coming. >> i think it's the next big tobacco. we'll see. jim steyer, thank you very much for coming on. >> great to see you guys. coming up, mrna technology was crucial for developing covid vaccines and it could dramatically change the future of mankind we'll dig into that with an expert on bioengineering that's next on "morning joe.

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life as we know it could soon be changing a new audio book is taking a fascinating look at how mrna vaccines are transforming the scientific landscape by sparking a biotechnology revolution in the wake of the covid-19 pandemic in the new audio book entitled "higher animals: vaccines, synthetic biology and the future of life" author michael specter reveals that after decades of incremental progress, scientists are rapidly learning how to create and alter cells by writing and rewriting dna. in other words, they're learning how to program life. i'm already scared so michael specter joins us now. he's an adjunct professor of

bioengineering at stanford university and a staff writer at "the new yorker. so how close are we to this, and what will be possible? >> one correction, i know that people -- nod at me if that is correct. >> mit >> we've made some of these breakthroughs, 13 billion mrna covid vaccines have been administered with people, and those vaccines were basically downloaded, you know the way that happened was the information was put on the internet it was downloaded by tons of labs those people then took that dna, ordered it, arranged it, infected a cell, and re-created the virus in labs. that made it possible for companies like moderna to make a vaccine in less than a year, though in fact moderna had the basic vaccine in five days and it usually takes years and

years. the fastest vaccine ever was four years 20 million lives were saved just because we had it. if we went through the old time line we'd be getting a vaccine maybe about now for the first time >> that's amazing. so this is, sounds like, really good news. are there dangers that come with it >> yeah, i mean, what we're basically talking about is biology is becoming digital information. it's like bits and bites that move through your computer that let you rewrite things on your programs instead of bits and bites, the letters for biology are the letters of dna and the better we get at rearranging those letters, altering those letters, augmenting those letters themselves, the more power we have over the development of all kinds of life, and that is wonderful news if you want to develop an influenza vaccine or

think about innovative cancer treatments or even all sorts of industrial applications that won't pollute the world, but it also meaning that it's getting easier to make these things and not every single person on earth is benign, and we need to start thinking a little bit more seriously about what we're going to do with the sequences of viruses. what we do now is we publish them we publish them instantly and everywhere and any viral sequence is acceptabssible to ae with an internet connection. that didn't used to be a terrible problem we're moving from the equivalent of a mainframe era where a computer took up two rooms and now a computer on my phone is more powerful than that computer we're making that transition in technology that's great but if you don't want your kids coming home from school one day saying, hey, i just designed a virus that no

vaccine can stop, we need to do some things to prevent that from happening. >> michael, good morning, it's willie, full disclosure i think i've known you since i was 7 years old, maybe even, correct me it's good to see you, michael and my dad were buddies. >> it was around 7 you were taller than me then too so. >> i've seen you in your natural state at some of those parties, but we'll put that to the side professor, let's go there, so let's talk about some of the amazing things, the potential of all of this. you talk about food and water shortages in places that desperately need them. that could be revolutionized by this kind of technology. how does that work how does this mrna help with something like a scarcity of food or a scarcity of water? >> first of all, i think mrna is like a tool bit in a toolbox it's a very powerful one, but there are similar ones that will

allow you to rewrite dna, you've heard of crispr. w we don't have enough nitrogen and that requires fertilizere fertilizer has polluted millions of streams agriculture makes its own fertilizer if we never cut any plants down, everything would fertilize itself there are companies, and i write about one in this book, that are kind of trying to grow fertilizer, to put it inside plants so that it would be natural. it wouldn't be polluting it wouldn't be made in giant chemical factory, and if you could do that cheaply, that would be a really revolutionary way to help feed literally billions of people who are struggling for food. there are all sorts of -- >> go ahead. >> so sorry to cut you off

we are hitting upon the top of the hour you can get much more information on the audio book. it's entitled "higher animals: vaccines, synthetic biology, and the future of life" with visiting scholar at m.i.t. and really geist's friend. we want to hear about those parties as well. michael specter, thank you so much for being on this morning >> thanks, michael. >> that does it for us this morning. what a week, willie. at this time on monday, we're going to be handing things off to our newest colleague, anna cabrera who we welcome to the msnbc family she'll kick off msnbc reports, the lineup at 10:00 a.m. on monday so that does it for this week. what a week it's been. willie, i'm still trying to process everything that happened from wisconsin to tennessee to the former president of the united states. >> i know, so much has happened, it's easy to forgeta former

president of the united states was indicted three days ago, but we've had wisconsin as you and joe and i have been talking about all week, a red flashing alarm for the republican party in terms of the erosion of their support in county where is they've counted on republican votes, and then just the extraordinary events in tennessee where we saw two young black members of the house is there expelled for a peaceful protest inside the well of the house of representatives, jen. >> that's crazy. >> that's right. it's a lot to watch. one voice matters. activism matters, so we'll see what happens on gun safety this could be a turning point. >> you can only hope it could be so for willie, joe, and me, that does it for us we'll see you monday for now, lindsey reiser picks up the coverage it's 10:00 a.m. in new york, i'm lindsey reiser and this rn